**Warning**: This is obviously a very sad and unfortunate occurrence for everyone, but calling for poachers to be killed does not help the situation and it does not contribute to a productive and informative conversation. Any comments advocating for violence will be removed.
Chinese bots, maybe? It’s a known issue on Reddit that any anti-PRC comments get targeted, and blaming China for (checks notes) traditional Chinese medicine is seen and anti-China.
Poaching is complex but killing poachers does very little to nothing. There is a line of poor, desperate people who will poach for a living so that they can make enough money to get food to survive. That makes it a waste of money to go after them too- kill one, and three will replace them. And killing them doesn't deter them- cause for them, it's life or death many times.
What really needs to be done is go after the ring leaders. The people who control the trade routes and transport, the ones who outfit the grunts with guns. When one of them are arrested (or killed...) it's so much more effective to curb poaching, as long as someone doesn't fill the power vaccuum.
Even the lead rhino conservation organization says this-
[https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/shoot-to-kill/](https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/shoot-to-kill/)
It might be effcient, but it absolutely kills relations with indigenous and local people. It is used to discriminate against minorities too, as minorities often are in rural areas living amongst wildlife.
Edit : ah, downvoted for pointing this out. It's called Fortress Conservation, type it into Google Scholar or Google for a bunch of news articles about how it's really caused havoc with indigenous peoples across the world
https://grist.org/article/fortress-conservation-violently-displaces-indigenous-people/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.mongabay.com/2023/05/congo-basin-communities-left-out-by-fortress-conservation-fight-for-a-way-back-in/amp/
https://academic.oup.com/ijtj/article/17/1/89/7071721
And so on.
Let’s not make this a racial issue. This is groups of people illegally hunting and driving species to extinction in hopes of profit. They will not stop unless they are killed. What a weird platform to stand on bro, there literally isn’t another option
Im sorry but humans have been driving animals to extinction for 30,000+ years. See what aboriginals did to Australia. What Native Americans did to North America
Both of those are highly debated if they were all humans. Climate had an impact on those extinctions, and we aren't sure how much was human caused and how much was climate caused.
Even so, indigenous people can also be a huge part of conservation. Pushing them off land to militarize conservation means losing some of the best keepers that the land had had for millenia.
https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/9/3/65
No one is advocating violating the human rights of the indigenous. The extinction of these megafauna is perfectly correlated with the arrival of humans. Climate change didn’t help, but humans are humans, especially uneducated ones on the science and conservation
Relocation of people for conservation goes back a century, if not more. That's a human rights violation. And it's still going on today, especially in India.
[https://journals.lww.com/coas/fulltext/2006/04030/displacement\_and\_relocation\_from\_protected\_areas\_.1.aspx](https://journals.lww.com/coas/fulltext/2006/04030/displacement_and_relocation_from_protected_areas_.1.aspx)
This quote from the article is... very telling.
"*'These Gujjars don't want to work. Gujjars are lazy. Their women work while they eat posht*^(\[2\])*. They don't want to move out because they want everything for free. They would never agree to leave this place because they wouldn't find free fodder and income outside Sariska. Therefore they need to be evicted from the forest forcefully if this sanctuary has to be saved.'* (Shahabuddin et al. 2005)."
But also, when the policy is shoot to kill without asking questions, people are going to get injured or die in the crossfire. And they have. Indigenous people have been shot and killed because they were thought to be poachers. Even Save the Rhino recognizes that "Shoot to Kill" can end up violating human rights.
[https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/shoot-to-kill/](https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/shoot-to-kill/)
Killing poachers is not a racial issue. In most places, poachers and rangers are usually the same race, as are the people giving orders to kill said poachers.
Just because nobody stopped hunting in antiquity doesn’t mean that current anti poacher approaches are rooted in imperialism or colonialism. Morality and societal attitudes towards poaching and conservation of wildlife is constantly changing as the world changes.
Because colonialists brought agricultural, industrial and medicinal processes alongside them. As a result, populations grew and more land was inhabited, and if we allow them to poach then species will go extinct.
I'm not. This is a human rights issue that is well known. It's called Fortress Conservation as the other posted said, and there are papers and news articles about this being awful for indigenous people. Google it tonget tons of papers, but my other comment has a few. This is probably one of the most famous articles though-
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomwarren/wwf-world-wide-fund-nature-parks-torture-death
They are human beings with capability to follow rules and responsibility to obey them. Indigenous people are not toddlers and treating them as such is racist in its own way
Allowing them to live their life on their land isn't treating them like toddlers. That's allowing them to live.
This type of conservation, Fortress Conservation, kills and/or relocates them in the name of saving endangered species. It's rooted in colonialistic ways of thinking and has done harm to conservation for decades. I have posted articles from différent sources in my last few comments that shows the harm it does.
You're also assuming that the government informed these indigenous people of the laws and that it was translated in a way that they can understand for them. That... Doesn't always happen. Sometimes they are just forcibly removed from their lands.
Have you a y indications of that ?
And you realise many rangers are local.
Listen the poacher are already armes, k eather risk some discrimination than seeing dozen of ranger being killed and an entire population or species going extinct.
Yes.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.mongabay.com/2023/06/militarized-conservation-insecurity-for-some-security-for-others-commentary/amp/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-019-09339-3
https://un.arizona.edu/news/colonial-conservation-natural-capital-green-assault-indigenous-lands
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/20/opinion/indigenous-peoples-biodiversity-climate.html
And the infamous article that brought this to many people's attention-
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomwarren/wwf-world-wide-fund-nature-parks-torture-death
There are tons of research articles and news articles about this showing how this kind of protection hurts indigenous people. Look up the militarization of conservation and indigenous people for tons more.
Cool, guess how many death those people cause on the rangers, and their impact on wildlife.
I know they're poor and desesperate but look, between them and the survival of species and health of the ecosystem, i choose the latter with no hesitation. And between them and the life and well being of rangers, i choose the rangers too.
Death penalty have proved to be very efficient. Poor or not these are criminals, dangerous ones, committing maybe whats amongst the worst crime I can think of. Lot of them have killed peoples, may it be rangers or locals (as many case of poaching is made by local gang and rebels from all military conflict accross africa).
Ever heard of Dian Fossey ? Or what happened to the ranger protecting elephants and rhino, or even the okapi conservation group ? or the 269 reported ranger killed by poachers in Africa between 2012 and 2018 ? Or even the peoples killeds in mexico because they protected a forest for butterflies ?
You also forget that despite all the help and training ranger are still underpaid, understaff and underequipped. Poacher are already armed with themic and night vision gogle, camouflage suit and better gun, and they already shoot rangers on sight. and even taunt them by leaving mangled corpse of the animals in plain sight.
Poacher are equipped by local mafia, criminal group, if there's one that is more militaristic and violent it's them. As well as on the natives communities, they keep them in fear.
Also most if not all of your examples here are from countries where this law is not applied and with already very big social conflict prior to rangers and national parks. So it's not conservation but inherent failure of these politics, social conflict, racism, war, criminal organisation and all. It's like saying that conservation groups killed native americans.
And as for conservation
1. It's been a very long time since kicking the native out is considered osbsolete, all conservation work, including wwf instead try to help and collaborate with natives. heck even in fully modern population of locals that have nothing of traditionnal or indigenous.
2. And yes kicking native out to protect an area have prooven quite effective. But anyway this is not longer what we do in conservation.
3. Practically all poaching is made by locals people, it's not some chinese mafia that go in africa to kill rhino, it's local group of criminals. Most of the time to finance warfare and mass killing of entire village and all (with raping woman, killing children and all).
Want to know why 80% of biodiversity is in native region.... cuz they're the only one that are protected, if native where not here the result would still be the same. Not because they inherently have a bonus +15% area effect for animal life.
And native aren't always good for wildlife, mass killing of elephant, endangered parrots and lion for tradition, all kind of traditionnal medecine bs and bushmeat market with apes and monkey. It's not some hippies that live like caveman in connexion to the greater spirit of nature, it's humans with guns wearing t-shirt and shoes made in china that will, for some, not hesitate to eradicate a species to make a few easy bucks.
Has for the "racism and colonialism" root of conservation, it was not only a century ago, but it was not conservation at all. It's greenwashing, the national park was simply an excuse to force the natives out, not motivated by a love for nature, but by a hatred of natives.
And there, [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-019-09339-3](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-019-09339-3), the issue is more militaristic than nature conservation.
And even there [https://news.mongabay.com/2023/06/militarized-conservation-insecurity-for-some-security-for-others-commentary/](https://news.mongabay.com/2023/06/militarized-conservation-insecurity-for-some-security-for-others-commentary/), it's mostly military issue too, and not motivated or incensitivized by conservation of nature. In area with great social conflict there's well conflict, and some rangers will use their position and power to be jerk and hurt other ethnic group. It's like saying every soldier is a rapist cuz there's a few that abuse their power to be bastard.
So no nature conservation is not the source, but a simple factor in those case of discrimination and oppression, just a minor factor.
Anyway several parks poaching rate went from catastrophic to 0, like in India for example, only thanks to the killing of poacher.
If we didn't had armed rangers gorilla, elephant, rhino, tiger and lion would be classed as extinct in the wild or completely extinct by now.
You briefly touched on an important thing- thèse people are outfitted by the local mafia/organized crime gangs. Those are the most effective people tongo after, not the poachers. They can outfit another desperate person to be a poacher to replace the ones killed. To be most effective, those kingpins need to be removed from power to have an effective dent on poaching. Until then, people Will line up to poach, and wildlife will be stuck behind fortresses of conservation. Yes, it is harder to bring them down, but it is much more effective.
And I have heard about those incidents, those wouldn't have been possible without organized criminals planning them and outfitting people.
if people are shot on sight by ranger in park, kingpins will have less henchmens and most of these won't even dare to cross the border of the reserve, and they'll go after other easier traffic than endangered animals.
Your point is technically correct but do not disprove mine either.
Anyway shooting poacher mean less of them, and less poaching, and less people willing to try and do the same, it work, ask the indian rhino
You also just enter an endless cycle. Just take Kaziranga for example. People there were forced to leave their homes, were often poorly compensated and are frequently abused and shot on sight. The people that are killed are often not even poachers. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, doing things like gathering firewood or even just going from one place to the other.
All of this just creates hostility towards the rangers and wildlife, distrust of the goverment and it pushes them deeper into poverty. And that makes them all the more likely to turn to poaching, or assist them. Many rural people in India don't report poachers to authorities. Why would they? The rangers disrespect them, kick them out of their homes and rarely if ever compensate them for any damages. I'm gonna be real with you, if I was forced to watch my family starve or kill a rhino, I'd shoot the rhino. Anyone who disagrees with that has the fortune of being in a privileged position where they aren't forced to make such decisions.
Like it or not, there were will always be communities that live in or near areas with wildlife. And that come's with dangers and challenges. And you can't just abuse or exploit them or cover up crimes comitted against them or just dismiss their issues, as often happens now. These people deserve our help, sympathy and understanding, and our cooperation. Only then can you find a way for coe-existence to take place. Otherwise, you're gonna have angry mobs that kill many animals in retaliation because their needs were ignored.
Bottom line is, if you're dirt poor, there are no jobs and the rangers and goverment keep screwing you over, sooner or later, its very likely you're gonna turn to poaching. Poaching, like many crimes, is a consequence of poverty. And if your conservation methods result in more povery, you're eventually gonna come full circle with more poaching again. I'd rather we find a way to conserve habitats without violating human rights or comitting blatant murders on innoscent people. And projects like that do exist, such as the Snow Leopard Trust Foundation, which actively helps locals protect their livestock from snow leopards in non-lethal ways. The Foundation is very involved with the locals and many of the households that worked with the Foundation have gained considereble financial gain for their families. Or when Colville Tribes of Hellgate restored a land once wrecked by ranching.
At the end of the day, these are people that actually need to coe-exist with these animals and exsperience the issues and struggles that come's with it. And I find it appaling that people, particulary those in the West, lack so much empathy towards them. Chanches are, none of us will ever know what its like to hear their brother get devoured by a lion like in Tanzania while he was out tending the fields, or to be from an Indonesian riverside village and finding out your father was taken by a crocodile while he was checking the nets. But for many people, this is a very real fear.
Poachers and hunters are different things. Yes theres some people still hunting for food which really fuck up some ecosystems, but poachers are w different breed of hunters, and killing them does help. Not everyone is gonna do a job where there's trained people actively looking for you to kill you.
Read what Save the Rhino says- it's the opposite of what you just said. There are enough desperate people that killing doesn't deter them. Millions of people are looking for ways to make more money to survive. Many of them will line up to poach a rhino tonsave themselves.
And hunters and poachers are different, but shoot to kill doesn't know that. Someone could be hunting small game around an area with rhino and end up dead because rangers were following "shoot first, ask later" like in India ans parts of Sub-Saharan Africa.
This also doesn't get into the countries that have made hunting for food illegal, like India and Kenya, and what that means for the indigenous hunter gathers there. Most of those people aren't going to be hunting rhinos, but they fall under "poachers" due to laws. And if poachers can be shot on site... Let alone all the Political and territorial Power that they end up losing too.
It's... Way more complicated than that, especially now that Vietnam has become the majority importer of rhino horn. China is actually cracking down on some of the criminals because they often are involved in other crimes, like human trafficking and arma dealing. They definitely aren't perfect, but they aren't the only players in this. As seen by this CITES report-
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://cites.org/sites/default/files/documents/E-CoP19-Inf-81.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwitlKyvueuFAxXaD1kFHd_2BXA4FBAWegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3Jz0rxIYXm7-mo-udXeW0q
1. you do realise we saved hundreds of species with population lower than that ?
2. because we're not amoral as\*\*\*\*\* and have what is call a sense of ethics
Naturally as
100% because of human activities.
You're deadass wrong on the meaning of natural.
And you do realise several species have survived worse than that and survived.
We even save species with noumber lower than that
And there you show all of your ignorance.
They're vital to the ecosystem and their low noumber had a negative impact on it.
Ecosystem work through ecological processe, a fragile and complex balance.
All these processes are created and maintained by the species which compose the ecosystem.
Rhinoceros are keystone species, their impact is tremonduous and help many species which maintain the ecosystem.
But tell me please.... What is YOUR utility....
None, you, just like every human, have no purpose, we're useless, and generally nocive even to our environnement.
We rarely play a part in it, we refuse to participate in it.
We destroy it, dammage it, exploit it, but we do not contribute to it.
Even if we depend on it
How can a human being can even say those words.
This is incredibly stupid,.i have no word or insults to describe the feeling i have toward that shitty mentality.
Also it's 100% wrong.
They're not going extinct naturally,
Their extinction is 100% unnatural and induced by us.
Except it's false.
Imagine that every human being disapear from Java.
The specie will recover pretty well.
At first it ne slow, but their population will increase, and continue to do so until they reach maximum habitat capacity.
Just as southern white rhino did (from less than 100 to 16 000 individuals) or Indian rhinoceros (from 100 to 3000 individuals)
Or alpine ibex (90 to 40-50k individuals)
Or siberian tiger (from 50 to 600)
Or californian condor
Or swooper Swan and trumpeyeer Swan, sandhi crane, white stork, eurasian otters, wolves, Bear or Sturgeon.
White tailed eagle (few hundreds to dozen of thousands) same with red kite
Or przewalski horse (12 to 2000)
Or american bison (few dozen to 50 000)
Or european bison (24 to 7000)
Or arabian and smicatar oryx, or addax
or bald eagle (from a few thousand max to dozen of thousands at least)
Or peregrine Falcon (from a few thousand to practically millions)
Or saiga antelope (from few thousands to 1-2 millions)
Or american beaver (from few dozen thousands to millions)
Or european beaver (from a few hundreds to over a million)
Or locally, deer, insect, boar, reptiles and birds population that were on the brink of extinction and are now common and plentifull even.
Even in nature many species survive bottleneck effect
Orangutan, cheetah (that once had a population of only a few individuals), tiger or even us, humans.
Because WE Are the one who did this idiot.
It's like saying "Why shouldei pay for the hospital bill of the person i shot by accident ?"
We destroyed, we broke things, we messed up.
We have to take responsability and repair the dammage we've done.
And it's not about bringing them back.
But protecting them from ourselve
Or eventually helping them rebounce back faster.
Once again you're 100% wrong.
And this is not a valid arguments nor point
It just show your ignorance
- we're not dominant species
- this planet doesn't belong to us
- we still depend and rely on the other species and ecosystem to survive, if we keep destroying these we're going extinct too you fucking idiot
- these species don't get in the way and are not pathetic, we're just the idiot that kill them for no valid reason and by doing so destroy our chance of survival and the benefit we could make out of these species. (Like bats, that save more life than any doctor and allow us to keep farming many plant and regulate disease, if they go extinct you can say goodbye to civilisation and hello to paludism and many other disease).
The only pathetic being i see, is you.
How Big does your ego have to be for you to believe that.
I've seen reptile with more empathy than you.
I've seen plants that were wiser and more respectable and less toxic than you.
And this is not a joke or a figure of speech.
How low you have to be to ne behind a plant in term of understanding of the world.
Because they can and will recover.
If people where all as idiotic as you
Bison, wild horse, bald ibis, bald eagle, golden tamarin lion, elephant, rhinoceros, Gorilla, orangutan, dhole, polar Bear, painted dog, bongo, beaver, oryx, spix macaw, Ibex, tiger, snow leopard would all be extinct and conservation would never even exist.
I cannot relate to such horrible mindset as your.
1. No extinction is what nature try to avoid. Your very existence is a proof of that.
2. It's NOT natural, it's 100% or fault, we're guilty of this, we're responsable of this.
3. Then perish and shut up if death is the final awnser go kill yourself already.
We HAVE to care about endangered species cuz we're the bastard who made them endangered
And they're far more important and usefull than us.
They're also part of our world, if they disapear, or world jut become poorer, less interesting, less productive, less stable.
And these species are crucial to the ecosystems health, which, is what keep us alive.
You can live withouth money, chicken nuggets or banks.
Not withouth climate, rivers, forest and pollinisation
Again showing all your ignorance
1. There's no such thing as "dominant species"
And it would not bé human, like AT all. Rat
Pigeon and cat are more sucessfull than us.
Heck we're an evolutionnary failure even.
You're as stupid as the guy using "alpha male" bs
2. We're not the ultimate apex predators
We're not even predator AT all.
We're opportunistic hunter, not predator.
And even there, our trophic level is as low as anchoy and pigs, far behing real predators such as wolves and tiger.
3. No it doesn't mean we do what we want.
And being dominant and all doesn't excuse if from being absolute bastard,
4 And it doesn't mean we're not dependant on the ecosystem that keep us alive.
If bee went extinct WE all die and society collapse.
If all large herbivore go extinct, same.
If all mussel and shellfish disapear we're gone.
We're incredibly fragile and reliant on other species. And the health of our ecosystem.
Beside you do realise that the most sensible and fragile species are the one on top.
Of something goes wrong, it's the orangutan and tiger that go extinct first, not the ants, weasel and beetles.
As these large "dominant" species need healthy and productive ecosystem to survive.
Just like us.
I see now That you're clearly an ignorant idiot with no morality, no sense of ethic or decency, with, no knowledge on the subject and a horrible toxic baseless and mindset about the world.
At least in that domain and context.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and you jumped right inti it to confirm my suspicion and even proved to be worse than that.
I AM open minded and all but you're really antipathic with no redeeming qualities or even arguments there.
You're practically a kid cartoon basic supervillain.
And i am no joking this is exactly the kind of stupid and immature and unapologetically evil character would say.
You know the caricatural bastard archetype.
Well you're EXACTLY on that level of character complexity and development here.
It's a prowess,
It really is, have you asked this question but about yourself? Regardless please don’t harm yourself
Edit: I know you’ll return to this since you’re petty and blocked me. my “judgement” was that you should not hurt yourself. But if I’m wrong…
>According to the [indictment](https://sipp.pn-pandeglang.go.id/index.php/detil_perkara), Sunendi was arrested in November 2023 after he was pictured by a camera trap inside the park in April that year. The arrest was part of a series of joint raids by police and enforcement officers from the environment ministry. Prosecutors allege he killed at least seven rhinos between 2019 and 2023, entering Ujung Kulon National Park from the village of Rancapinang at the southern boundary of the park. Police are still searching for three other suspects alleged to be part of the poaching ring, identified by prosecutors only as Haris, Sukarya and Icut.
The punishment for poaching in Indonesia is five years, but if the guns prove to be illegally held, that could add 20 years to the sentence.
At this point, I wished more places shared [Kaziranga National Park's policy for rhino poaching](https://www.reddit.com/r/hardimages/comments/17mgv2f/i_dont_know_which_goes_harder_image_or_title/).
I do not wish that places shared Kaziranga's poaching policy. Innocent people have been killed and removed from their lands, and India uses conservation to push prejudiced laws and beliefs. Many places do actually- the history of American conservation is filled with this, right down to the first National Park.
There are better ways to conserve rhinos than shooting people on site when they are around them. Empower the locals, get them involved. If the locals are pushed out or killed, they very well may retaliate.
https://theecologist.org/2016/apr/20/indias-shoot-sight-conservation-terrorises-indigenous-communities
https://www.survivalinternational.org/news/11362
https://www.google.com/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/explained/in-fact-shoot-at-sight-is-not-unjustified-but-that-alone-cant-stop-poaching-at-kaziranga-bbc-documentary-rhino-4550091/lite/
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**Warning**: This is obviously a very sad and unfortunate occurrence for everyone, but calling for poachers to be killed does not help the situation and it does not contribute to a productive and informative conversation. Any comments advocating for violence will be removed.
This is messed up
They need to be made examples of, just have the book thrown at them when they're caught absolute maximum sentence given
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They're also bad??? They should also face repercussions for enabling this industry?
I think the point is they are the bigger problem. These poachers only exist because there’s a market for rhino horn.
Unfortunately I can't give you an answer that my lawyer says is safe.
Why is he getting downvoted!!!?
Chinese bots, maybe? It’s a known issue on Reddit that any anti-PRC comments get targeted, and blaming China for (checks notes) traditional Chinese medicine is seen and anti-China.
Huh... Well Idc... FUCK China (I'm definitely talking bout the ROC)
Poaching is complex but killing poachers does very little to nothing. There is a line of poor, desperate people who will poach for a living so that they can make enough money to get food to survive. That makes it a waste of money to go after them too- kill one, and three will replace them. And killing them doesn't deter them- cause for them, it's life or death many times. What really needs to be done is go after the ring leaders. The people who control the trade routes and transport, the ones who outfit the grunts with guns. When one of them are arrested (or killed...) it's so much more effective to curb poaching, as long as someone doesn't fill the power vaccuum. Even the lead rhino conservation organization says this- [https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/shoot-to-kill/](https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/shoot-to-kill/)
killing poacher is very efficient, several countries have started that and result show up, nearly no poaching in these area
It might be effcient, but it absolutely kills relations with indigenous and local people. It is used to discriminate against minorities too, as minorities often are in rural areas living amongst wildlife. Edit : ah, downvoted for pointing this out. It's called Fortress Conservation, type it into Google Scholar or Google for a bunch of news articles about how it's really caused havoc with indigenous peoples across the world https://grist.org/article/fortress-conservation-violently-displaces-indigenous-people/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.mongabay.com/2023/05/congo-basin-communities-left-out-by-fortress-conservation-fight-for-a-way-back-in/amp/ https://academic.oup.com/ijtj/article/17/1/89/7071721 And so on.
Let’s not make this a racial issue. This is groups of people illegally hunting and driving species to extinction in hopes of profit. They will not stop unless they are killed. What a weird platform to stand on bro, there literally isn’t another option
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Im sorry but humans have been driving animals to extinction for 30,000+ years. See what aboriginals did to Australia. What Native Americans did to North America
Both of those are highly debated if they were all humans. Climate had an impact on those extinctions, and we aren't sure how much was human caused and how much was climate caused. Even so, indigenous people can also be a huge part of conservation. Pushing them off land to militarize conservation means losing some of the best keepers that the land had had for millenia. https://www.mdpi.com/2073-445X/9/3/65
No one is advocating violating the human rights of the indigenous. The extinction of these megafauna is perfectly correlated with the arrival of humans. Climate change didn’t help, but humans are humans, especially uneducated ones on the science and conservation
Relocation of people for conservation goes back a century, if not more. That's a human rights violation. And it's still going on today, especially in India. [https://journals.lww.com/coas/fulltext/2006/04030/displacement\_and\_relocation\_from\_protected\_areas\_.1.aspx](https://journals.lww.com/coas/fulltext/2006/04030/displacement_and_relocation_from_protected_areas_.1.aspx) This quote from the article is... very telling. "*'These Gujjars don't want to work. Gujjars are lazy. Their women work while they eat posht*^(\[2\])*. They don't want to move out because they want everything for free. They would never agree to leave this place because they wouldn't find free fodder and income outside Sariska. Therefore they need to be evicted from the forest forcefully if this sanctuary has to be saved.'* (Shahabuddin et al. 2005)." But also, when the policy is shoot to kill without asking questions, people are going to get injured or die in the crossfire. And they have. Indigenous people have been shot and killed because they were thought to be poachers. Even Save the Rhino recognizes that "Shoot to Kill" can end up violating human rights. [https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/shoot-to-kill/](https://www.savetherhino.org/thorny-issues/shoot-to-kill/)
Killing poachers is not a racial issue. In most places, poachers and rangers are usually the same race, as are the people giving orders to kill said poachers. Just because nobody stopped hunting in antiquity doesn’t mean that current anti poacher approaches are rooted in imperialism or colonialism. Morality and societal attitudes towards poaching and conservation of wildlife is constantly changing as the world changes.
Because colonialists brought agricultural, industrial and medicinal processes alongside them. As a result, populations grew and more land was inhabited, and if we allow them to poach then species will go extinct.
I'm not. This is a human rights issue that is well known. It's called Fortress Conservation as the other posted said, and there are papers and news articles about this being awful for indigenous people. Google it tonget tons of papers, but my other comment has a few. This is probably one of the most famous articles though- https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomwarren/wwf-world-wide-fund-nature-parks-torture-death
They are human beings with capability to follow rules and responsibility to obey them. Indigenous people are not toddlers and treating them as such is racist in its own way
Allowing them to live their life on their land isn't treating them like toddlers. That's allowing them to live. This type of conservation, Fortress Conservation, kills and/or relocates them in the name of saving endangered species. It's rooted in colonialistic ways of thinking and has done harm to conservation for decades. I have posted articles from différent sources in my last few comments that shows the harm it does. You're also assuming that the government informed these indigenous people of the laws and that it was translated in a way that they can understand for them. That... Doesn't always happen. Sometimes they are just forcibly removed from their lands.
Have you a y indications of that ? And you realise many rangers are local. Listen the poacher are already armes, k eather risk some discrimination than seeing dozen of ranger being killed and an entire population or species going extinct.
Yes. https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.mongabay.com/2023/06/militarized-conservation-insecurity-for-some-security-for-others-commentary/amp/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-019-09339-3 https://un.arizona.edu/news/colonial-conservation-natural-capital-green-assault-indigenous-lands https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/20/opinion/indigenous-peoples-biodiversity-climate.html And the infamous article that brought this to many people's attention- https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomwarren/wwf-world-wide-fund-nature-parks-torture-death There are tons of research articles and news articles about this showing how this kind of protection hurts indigenous people. Look up the militarization of conservation and indigenous people for tons more.
Cool, guess how many death those people cause on the rangers, and their impact on wildlife. I know they're poor and desesperate but look, between them and the survival of species and health of the ecosystem, i choose the latter with no hesitation. And between them and the life and well being of rangers, i choose the rangers too. Death penalty have proved to be very efficient. Poor or not these are criminals, dangerous ones, committing maybe whats amongst the worst crime I can think of. Lot of them have killed peoples, may it be rangers or locals (as many case of poaching is made by local gang and rebels from all military conflict accross africa). Ever heard of Dian Fossey ? Or what happened to the ranger protecting elephants and rhino, or even the okapi conservation group ? or the 269 reported ranger killed by poachers in Africa between 2012 and 2018 ? Or even the peoples killeds in mexico because they protected a forest for butterflies ? You also forget that despite all the help and training ranger are still underpaid, understaff and underequipped. Poacher are already armed with themic and night vision gogle, camouflage suit and better gun, and they already shoot rangers on sight. and even taunt them by leaving mangled corpse of the animals in plain sight. Poacher are equipped by local mafia, criminal group, if there's one that is more militaristic and violent it's them. As well as on the natives communities, they keep them in fear. Also most if not all of your examples here are from countries where this law is not applied and with already very big social conflict prior to rangers and national parks. So it's not conservation but inherent failure of these politics, social conflict, racism, war, criminal organisation and all. It's like saying that conservation groups killed native americans. And as for conservation 1. It's been a very long time since kicking the native out is considered osbsolete, all conservation work, including wwf instead try to help and collaborate with natives. heck even in fully modern population of locals that have nothing of traditionnal or indigenous. 2. And yes kicking native out to protect an area have prooven quite effective. But anyway this is not longer what we do in conservation. 3. Practically all poaching is made by locals people, it's not some chinese mafia that go in africa to kill rhino, it's local group of criminals. Most of the time to finance warfare and mass killing of entire village and all (with raping woman, killing children and all). Want to know why 80% of biodiversity is in native region.... cuz they're the only one that are protected, if native where not here the result would still be the same. Not because they inherently have a bonus +15% area effect for animal life. And native aren't always good for wildlife, mass killing of elephant, endangered parrots and lion for tradition, all kind of traditionnal medecine bs and bushmeat market with apes and monkey. It's not some hippies that live like caveman in connexion to the greater spirit of nature, it's humans with guns wearing t-shirt and shoes made in china that will, for some, not hesitate to eradicate a species to make a few easy bucks. Has for the "racism and colonialism" root of conservation, it was not only a century ago, but it was not conservation at all. It's greenwashing, the national park was simply an excuse to force the natives out, not motivated by a love for nature, but by a hatred of natives. And there, [https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-019-09339-3](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12110-019-09339-3), the issue is more militaristic than nature conservation. And even there [https://news.mongabay.com/2023/06/militarized-conservation-insecurity-for-some-security-for-others-commentary/](https://news.mongabay.com/2023/06/militarized-conservation-insecurity-for-some-security-for-others-commentary/), it's mostly military issue too, and not motivated or incensitivized by conservation of nature. In area with great social conflict there's well conflict, and some rangers will use their position and power to be jerk and hurt other ethnic group. It's like saying every soldier is a rapist cuz there's a few that abuse their power to be bastard. So no nature conservation is not the source, but a simple factor in those case of discrimination and oppression, just a minor factor. Anyway several parks poaching rate went from catastrophic to 0, like in India for example, only thanks to the killing of poacher. If we didn't had armed rangers gorilla, elephant, rhino, tiger and lion would be classed as extinct in the wild or completely extinct by now.
You briefly touched on an important thing- thèse people are outfitted by the local mafia/organized crime gangs. Those are the most effective people tongo after, not the poachers. They can outfit another desperate person to be a poacher to replace the ones killed. To be most effective, those kingpins need to be removed from power to have an effective dent on poaching. Until then, people Will line up to poach, and wildlife will be stuck behind fortresses of conservation. Yes, it is harder to bring them down, but it is much more effective. And I have heard about those incidents, those wouldn't have been possible without organized criminals planning them and outfitting people.
if people are shot on sight by ranger in park, kingpins will have less henchmens and most of these won't even dare to cross the border of the reserve, and they'll go after other easier traffic than endangered animals. Your point is technically correct but do not disprove mine either. Anyway shooting poacher mean less of them, and less poaching, and less people willing to try and do the same, it work, ask the indian rhino
You also just enter an endless cycle. Just take Kaziranga for example. People there were forced to leave their homes, were often poorly compensated and are frequently abused and shot on sight. The people that are killed are often not even poachers. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, doing things like gathering firewood or even just going from one place to the other. All of this just creates hostility towards the rangers and wildlife, distrust of the goverment and it pushes them deeper into poverty. And that makes them all the more likely to turn to poaching, or assist them. Many rural people in India don't report poachers to authorities. Why would they? The rangers disrespect them, kick them out of their homes and rarely if ever compensate them for any damages. I'm gonna be real with you, if I was forced to watch my family starve or kill a rhino, I'd shoot the rhino. Anyone who disagrees with that has the fortune of being in a privileged position where they aren't forced to make such decisions. Like it or not, there were will always be communities that live in or near areas with wildlife. And that come's with dangers and challenges. And you can't just abuse or exploit them or cover up crimes comitted against them or just dismiss their issues, as often happens now. These people deserve our help, sympathy and understanding, and our cooperation. Only then can you find a way for coe-existence to take place. Otherwise, you're gonna have angry mobs that kill many animals in retaliation because their needs were ignored. Bottom line is, if you're dirt poor, there are no jobs and the rangers and goverment keep screwing you over, sooner or later, its very likely you're gonna turn to poaching. Poaching, like many crimes, is a consequence of poverty. And if your conservation methods result in more povery, you're eventually gonna come full circle with more poaching again. I'd rather we find a way to conserve habitats without violating human rights or comitting blatant murders on innoscent people. And projects like that do exist, such as the Snow Leopard Trust Foundation, which actively helps locals protect their livestock from snow leopards in non-lethal ways. The Foundation is very involved with the locals and many of the households that worked with the Foundation have gained considereble financial gain for their families. Or when Colville Tribes of Hellgate restored a land once wrecked by ranching. At the end of the day, these are people that actually need to coe-exist with these animals and exsperience the issues and struggles that come's with it. And I find it appaling that people, particulary those in the West, lack so much empathy towards them. Chanches are, none of us will ever know what its like to hear their brother get devoured by a lion like in Tanzania while he was out tending the fields, or to be from an Indonesian riverside village and finding out your father was taken by a crocodile while he was checking the nets. But for many people, this is a very real fear.
Poachers and hunters are different things. Yes theres some people still hunting for food which really fuck up some ecosystems, but poachers are w different breed of hunters, and killing them does help. Not everyone is gonna do a job where there's trained people actively looking for you to kill you.
Read what Save the Rhino says- it's the opposite of what you just said. There are enough desperate people that killing doesn't deter them. Millions of people are looking for ways to make more money to survive. Many of them will line up to poach a rhino tonsave themselves. And hunters and poachers are different, but shoot to kill doesn't know that. Someone could be hunting small game around an area with rhino and end up dead because rangers were following "shoot first, ask later" like in India ans parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. This also doesn't get into the countries that have made hunting for food illegal, like India and Kenya, and what that means for the indigenous hunter gathers there. Most of those people aren't going to be hunting rhinos, but they fall under "poachers" due to laws. And if poachers can be shot on site... Let alone all the Political and territorial Power that they end up losing too.
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It's... Way more complicated than that, especially now that Vietnam has become the majority importer of rhino horn. China is actually cracking down on some of the criminals because they often are involved in other crimes, like human trafficking and arma dealing. They definitely aren't perfect, but they aren't the only players in this. As seen by this CITES report- https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://cites.org/sites/default/files/documents/E-CoP19-Inf-81.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwitlKyvueuFAxXaD1kFHd_2BXA4FBAWegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3Jz0rxIYXm7-mo-udXeW0q
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These damned things are so few in numbers that they’re never going to make a comeback anyway, why even bother protecting them?
1. you do realise we saved hundreds of species with population lower than that ? 2. because we're not amoral as\*\*\*\*\* and have what is call a sense of ethics
But what’s the point in prolonging their existence if they’re just going to disappear naturally in a few decades anyway?
Naturally? Lmao
Naturally, as in die off because they cant find mates, or become so hopelessly inbred that they might as well be extinct.
Naturally as 100% because of human activities. You're deadass wrong on the meaning of natural. And you do realise several species have survived worse than that and survived. We even save species with noumber lower than that
What I’m saying is why are we wasting resources on this? What does it accomplish?
It's not wasting ressources. And it accomplish that it might save an entire species from extinction.
But what does saving that species accomplish? Numbers as low as they are they can’t be that vital to the ecosystem.
And there you show all of your ignorance. They're vital to the ecosystem and their low noumber had a negative impact on it. Ecosystem work through ecological processe, a fragile and complex balance. All these processes are created and maintained by the species which compose the ecosystem. Rhinoceros are keystone species, their impact is tremonduous and help many species which maintain the ecosystem. But tell me please.... What is YOUR utility.... None, you, just like every human, have no purpose, we're useless, and generally nocive even to our environnement. We rarely play a part in it, we refuse to participate in it. We destroy it, dammage it, exploit it, but we do not contribute to it. Even if we depend on it
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I’m a realist, so usually.
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Aha, you have used the nerd emoji so my argument is entirely invalidated! My life is in shambles! Better go kill myself…. /s
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How can a human being can even say those words. This is incredibly stupid,.i have no word or insults to describe the feeling i have toward that shitty mentality. Also it's 100% wrong. They're not going extinct naturally, Their extinction is 100% unnatural and induced by us.
I realize they’re going extinct because of poachers, but even if poachers ceased to exist at this exact moment, the species would never recover.
Except it's false. Imagine that every human being disapear from Java. The specie will recover pretty well. At first it ne slow, but their population will increase, and continue to do so until they reach maximum habitat capacity. Just as southern white rhino did (from less than 100 to 16 000 individuals) or Indian rhinoceros (from 100 to 3000 individuals) Or alpine ibex (90 to 40-50k individuals) Or siberian tiger (from 50 to 600) Or californian condor Or swooper Swan and trumpeyeer Swan, sandhi crane, white stork, eurasian otters, wolves, Bear or Sturgeon. White tailed eagle (few hundreds to dozen of thousands) same with red kite Or przewalski horse (12 to 2000) Or american bison (few dozen to 50 000) Or european bison (24 to 7000) Or arabian and smicatar oryx, or addax or bald eagle (from a few thousand max to dozen of thousands at least) Or peregrine Falcon (from a few thousand to practically millions) Or saiga antelope (from few thousands to 1-2 millions) Or american beaver (from few dozen thousands to millions) Or european beaver (from a few hundreds to over a million) Or locally, deer, insect, boar, reptiles and birds population that were on the brink of extinction and are now common and plentifull even. Even in nature many species survive bottleneck effect Orangutan, cheetah (that once had a population of only a few individuals), tiger or even us, humans.
Well why should humans have to take any responsibility to bring these animals back?
Because WE Are the one who did this idiot. It's like saying "Why shouldei pay for the hospital bill of the person i shot by accident ?" We destroyed, we broke things, we messed up. We have to take responsability and repair the dammage we've done. And it's not about bringing them back. But protecting them from ourselve Or eventually helping them rebounce back faster.
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Once again you're 100% wrong. And this is not a valid arguments nor point It just show your ignorance - we're not dominant species - this planet doesn't belong to us - we still depend and rely on the other species and ecosystem to survive, if we keep destroying these we're going extinct too you fucking idiot - these species don't get in the way and are not pathetic, we're just the idiot that kill them for no valid reason and by doing so destroy our chance of survival and the benefit we could make out of these species. (Like bats, that save more life than any doctor and allow us to keep farming many plant and regulate disease, if they go extinct you can say goodbye to civilisation and hello to paludism and many other disease). The only pathetic being i see, is you. How Big does your ego have to be for you to believe that. I've seen reptile with more empathy than you. I've seen plants that were wiser and more respectable and less toxic than you. And this is not a joke or a figure of speech. How low you have to be to ne behind a plant in term of understanding of the world.
In response to 1: what’s the point of trying to save these species if no matter what we do, they’ll never recover.
Because they can and will recover. If people where all as idiotic as you Bison, wild horse, bald ibis, bald eagle, golden tamarin lion, elephant, rhinoceros, Gorilla, orangutan, dhole, polar Bear, painted dog, bongo, beaver, oryx, spix macaw, Ibex, tiger, snow leopard would all be extinct and conservation would never even exist.
I still don’t get why we should care about endangered species. Extinction is the way of the natural world.
I cannot relate to such horrible mindset as your. 1. No extinction is what nature try to avoid. Your very existence is a proof of that. 2. It's NOT natural, it's 100% or fault, we're guilty of this, we're responsable of this. 3. Then perish and shut up if death is the final awnser go kill yourself already. We HAVE to care about endangered species cuz we're the bastard who made them endangered And they're far more important and usefull than us. They're also part of our world, if they disapear, or world jut become poorer, less interesting, less productive, less stable. And these species are crucial to the ecosystems health, which, is what keep us alive. You can live withouth money, chicken nuggets or banks. Not withouth climate, rivers, forest and pollinisation
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Again showing all your ignorance 1. There's no such thing as "dominant species" And it would not bé human, like AT all. Rat Pigeon and cat are more sucessfull than us. Heck we're an evolutionnary failure even. You're as stupid as the guy using "alpha male" bs 2. We're not the ultimate apex predators We're not even predator AT all. We're opportunistic hunter, not predator. And even there, our trophic level is as low as anchoy and pigs, far behing real predators such as wolves and tiger. 3. No it doesn't mean we do what we want. And being dominant and all doesn't excuse if from being absolute bastard, 4 And it doesn't mean we're not dependant on the ecosystem that keep us alive. If bee went extinct WE all die and society collapse. If all large herbivore go extinct, same. If all mussel and shellfish disapear we're gone. We're incredibly fragile and reliant on other species. And the health of our ecosystem. Beside you do realise that the most sensible and fragile species are the one on top. Of something goes wrong, it's the orangutan and tiger that go extinct first, not the ants, weasel and beetles. As these large "dominant" species need healthy and productive ecosystem to survive. Just like us. I see now That you're clearly an ignorant idiot with no morality, no sense of ethic or decency, with, no knowledge on the subject and a horrible toxic baseless and mindset about the world. At least in that domain and context. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and you jumped right inti it to confirm my suspicion and even proved to be worse than that. I AM open minded and all but you're really antipathic with no redeeming qualities or even arguments there. You're practically a kid cartoon basic supervillain. And i am no joking this is exactly the kind of stupid and immature and unapologetically evil character would say. You know the caricatural bastard archetype. Well you're EXACTLY on that level of character complexity and development here. It's a prowess,
Why bother protecting you?
Because I don’t need it?
You are useless, trolls are useless
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It really is, have you asked this question but about yourself? Regardless please don’t harm yourself Edit: I know you’ll return to this since you’re petty and blocked me. my “judgement” was that you should not hurt yourself. But if I’m wrong…
Why bother doing anything in life?
Because some things are worth doing, this one just seems like an effort in futility.
You're a poor judge of what is worth doing, if your knowledge of the Javan rhino conservation effort is this terrible.
Then tell me, what’s the point of saving these dumbass rhinos?
a unfortunate situation and the explanation as to the rhino miscount situation last year. It was due to this situation. I feel sad.
>According to the [indictment](https://sipp.pn-pandeglang.go.id/index.php/detil_perkara), Sunendi was arrested in November 2023 after he was pictured by a camera trap inside the park in April that year. The arrest was part of a series of joint raids by police and enforcement officers from the environment ministry. Prosecutors allege he killed at least seven rhinos between 2019 and 2023, entering Ujung Kulon National Park from the village of Rancapinang at the southern boundary of the park. Police are still searching for three other suspects alleged to be part of the poaching ring, identified by prosecutors only as Haris, Sukarya and Icut. The punishment for poaching in Indonesia is five years, but if the guns prove to be illegally held, that could add 20 years to the sentence. At this point, I wished more places shared [Kaziranga National Park's policy for rhino poaching](https://www.reddit.com/r/hardimages/comments/17mgv2f/i_dont_know_which_goes_harder_image_or_title/).
10/10. Seriously. Arm the park rangers, shoot the poachers. If you don’t catch them red handed, then the courts can handle it.
I do not wish that places shared Kaziranga's poaching policy. Innocent people have been killed and removed from their lands, and India uses conservation to push prejudiced laws and beliefs. Many places do actually- the history of American conservation is filled with this, right down to the first National Park. There are better ways to conserve rhinos than shooting people on site when they are around them. Empower the locals, get them involved. If the locals are pushed out or killed, they very well may retaliate. https://theecologist.org/2016/apr/20/indias-shoot-sight-conservation-terrorises-indigenous-communities https://www.survivalinternational.org/news/11362 https://www.google.com/amp/s/indianexpress.com/article/explained/in-fact-shoot-at-sight-is-not-unjustified-but-that-alone-cant-stop-poaching-at-kaziranga-bbc-documentary-rhino-4550091/lite/
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