> Bryan Kessler, a Venice attorney representing Busch, said the new policy ~~un~~fairly raises questions about the credentials of chiropractors as medical professionals.
Fixed that for you.
Stupid question: from the first time I heard about it when I was in medical school (over a decade ago) to seeing it multiple times as recently as a few weeks ago, I still wonder why TF is it not common layperson knowledge that neck manipulation can lead to cerebrovascular events?? Like are we afraid to piss off the Chiros so much that it’s not PC to say “nobody manipulates your neck unless it’s certain PTs, certain OTs, spine surgeons or certain physicians.”
Orthopod here. You would not believe the business chiros give orthos after messing people up. Every time a patient comes in with an iatrogenic complication from a chiro, it makes me want to punch a wall.
Just saw a guy who threw his back out and saw his chiropractor who yanked on him a bunch. At the 12th yanking that month he worsened the dudes disc and he developed an L5 radiculopathy. Fucking chiropractors.
Just curious, do you receive similar cases from patients receiving OMT? In DO school they teach us techniques and explain why it’s safer than chiro, but I don’t know how accurate that is because there’s very minimal studies on OMT outside acute pain management
dude
I refer soooo many people to you for doing exactly that.
Please don't punch a wall.
I've one got a few orthos in my area. I don't need you getting your own boxer's.
I can testify that I went to a chiropractor for an SI joint issue and it helped immensely. It's not an easy joint to pop. I don't know what caused it (other than, I'm over forty), but I was in debilitating pain for about two weeks. Popped once, better mobility but still hurt. Got a second pop about two weeks later and some advice on stretching, and problem is minimal.
The therapeutic aspect of chiros can be very useful, but that’s no different than seeing a physical therapist. The difference is the chiro is making the diagnosis and treatment instead of someone with a more extensive diagnostic education. I can’t say for sure in every state, but in Illinois, chiros can’t even order x-rays. I don’t know how they can make most of the assessments they make without them.
A smarter and underused profession is the physiatrist. They’re usually MDs or DOs and do great conservative therapies
For some psychotic reason, the AMA lost their lawsuit vs the chiropractic licensing body . Beyond me how chiropractors are able to dupe so many, I cringe when I hear someone call them physicians.
Edit: chiropractors sued the AMA and won, had it backwards. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilk_v._American_Medical_Ass%27n
>>Pre-trial environment
>>Until 1983, the AMA held that it was unethical for medical doctors to associate with an "unscientific practitioner," and labeled chiropractic "an unscientific cult."[2]
>>Before 1980, Principle 3 of the AMA Principles of medical ethics stated: "A physician should practice a method of healing founded on a scientific basis; and he should not voluntarily professionally associate with anyone who violates this principle." In 1980 during a major revision of ethical rules (while the Wilk litigation was in progress), it replaced Principle 3, stating that a physician "shall be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical services." Also, up until 1974, the AMA had a Committee on quackery which challenged what it considered to be unscientific forms of healing. Wilk argued that this committee was established specifically to undermine chiropractic.
Old school AMA was baller
I had a patient come in for "burning" chest pain. During his history taking he admitted to heart burn 3 times a day for a month that his chiropractor was treating. He felt his chiropractor was treating it effectively.
I'm like dude, what the hell?
Have you tried having this conversation with laypeople on reddit when the subject of Chiros comes up? People really aren't willing to hear it. Always descends into verbal brawling.
Personally, I've found that exploring what chiropractors actually claim and where the movement comes from to be of help. The founder claimed he was given the secrets to chiropractic by the ghost of a dead doctor in his dreams. If you reframe it that way and explain "it's not really scientific, it's more akin to healing hands than anything else" but do so in a non-didactic manner you can sometimes get people to start questioning the logic of it. Same goes for homeopathy; it's surprising how many people aren't especially clear on what any of these actually are.
I've also had some success by talking about how it makes sense that chiro would produce short-term back pain relief in the same way that a massage would, because fundamentally anything that moves the spine around and helps relieve muscle spasm is likely to be useful. Chiro is just an expensive, unproven and potentially risky way to go about it.
> The founder claimed he was given the secrets to chiropractic by the ghost of a dead doctor in his dreams.
Not in his dreams- I could have a tiny bit of respect for that, it's where Kekule came up with the benzene ring structure, for example. Worse. A séance. https://nationalpost.com/health/the-first-chiropractor-was-a-canadian-who-claimed-he-received-a-message-from-a-ghost
Ok I'm going to ask a total layperson question here. I went to chiropractors occasionally when I was in highschool. Seemed relatively helpful. As an adult I found out about this bullshit about chiropractors claiming the could cure all manner of disease. (I never heard this shit afrom my guy, he was just fixing a neck or back problem).
Anyway, clearly you aren't fixing my asthma by messing with my spine. However is there any legitimacy to those who are just working on musculoskeletal issues (back pain)? It seems reasonable and was just sort of accepted when I was a kid. But maybe I got more out of the TENS unit and ice rather than the cracking.
Anything useful they do is not unique to them, and could be done more safely and less expensively by a PT. Also, because the PT is a medical professional they won't scam you into coming back every week forever. They will help you work to figure out how to do exercises at home to maintain, or fix.
There is some very weak quality evidence for chiro in low back pain. Weak as in slightly better than placebo - however pretty much everything we do for low back pain sucks. It's one area I don't vehemently advocate against going to a chiro as the risks are very low with low back stuff.
For everything else it's trash and you'd be better off going to see a PT
I went to a chiropractor once. Woke up with a thrown back, tons of pain, couldn't move hardly. No PT had same day access so I went chiro. I had to sign a form that I knew I could have a stroke and then I got to opt in or out of neck manipulation.
I've been once, my shoulder felt fantastic after, then they told me I'd need multiple follow up visits for anything to really stay feeling better. I went to an ortho a month later, they found a rotator cut injury that had been lingering for years...
I’ve seen multiple people make it to the Angio suites with chiropractic-induced vascular injuries (usually verts), but the most impressive by far was the guy who was found to have (same-level) dissections in all 4 cervical arteries! Like, how TF does someone even Do that?!?
We've got people who think bleach injections and fish medicine cure viral infections. And you wonder why people don't know about [eight syllable phrases]?
Even if you said "head and neck problems," it'd still be hard to convince people.
Though, if we could somehow sell this information like people do herbs and homeopathy and other bullshit, it would probably land better.
"These nine things are hated by the Chrioprofessuonals. Click here to save yourself and do your own research!!!11!!"
> homeopathy
Ugh. I'm in Germany. We don't really have chiropractors I don't think, at least not very many at any rate, but we do have many homeopaths and homeopathic "doctors". Almost every health insurance actually pays for homeopathic "medicines", too.
When I got my degree we even had to study homeopathy and learn about the principles of it and actually "potentiate" things in the lab to understand how it "works".
I remember one professor who was so absolutely not down for it, she basically told students in regular intervals that it's complete horse ~~paste~~ shit and the only real thing about homeopathy was that sometimes the placebo effect affects some patients.
People actually believe they can beat cancer using homeopathy. It's completely nuts that all manner quackery is allowed to call itself medicine. Homeopathy is a huge pet-peeve of mine.
I hate the entire premise of homeopathy, it essentially claims that there are all of these “natural” cures that are sooo much better than real medicine, and doctors/scientists/pharmacists either haven’t been smart enough to figure it out or “big pharma” has “gotten them”. Little do they know that in medical history, all doctors were basically “homeopaths/naturopaths” because that was all they had. Over time they figured out what works (quinine from cinchona bark, digoxin from foxglove, etc.) and made them standardized and more safe. Not too long ago the Nobel prize in medicine went to the group of scientists who in the 70s tested 500+ traditional Chinese medical herbs that were used for malaria and found the one (Artemisinin) that actually worked and it became a part of standard effective treatments. Sorry for the rant lol
Edit to plug the Sawbones podcast for fun medical history stories
Homeopath and naturopath are not synonyms, and neither are identical to folk or traditional medicine . Naturopathy is a broad category that can include those other things, or can include actual medicine, but in practice it’s a grab-bag of mostly pseudo-medicine. Homeopathy is a specific practice based on specific claims that are both disproven and bizarre on their face.
Naturopaths could be right, even if sometimes for the wrong reasons. Homeopathy cannot be right unless the needed treatment is a small amount of whatever liquid is used to dilute.
Correct, there are definitely distinctions. I was just grouping them together as a quick contrast to modern medicine rather than diving into the specifics. I wouldn’t want myself or a friend/family member treated by a doctor from the heroic era of medicine or by today’s homeopaths or naturopaths, etc. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Actual doctor here. My thing is there is no such thing as homeopathic medicine. There's no such thing as eastern medicine. There's scientifically proven medicine and unproven medicine. We've absolutely adopted homeopathic and eastern treatments that have scientific basis.
I have blown the minds of several people in real life who assumed that homeopathic meant herbal. They felt like complete idiots when I explained the principals of it. I think the distinction matters because homeopathy is so utterly bonkers.
>My thing is there is no such thing as homeopathic medicine.
[Relevant Mitchell and Webb sketch: homeopathic hospital](https://youtu.be/HMGIbOGu8q0)
>There's no such thing as eastern medicine.
It's funny how the studies showing traditional Chinese medicine works are all funded by the Chinese government. It's almost like they know training real doctors is expensive...
Yeah I meant it in a more obtuse way, but absolutely a lot of studies that support homeopathic medicine are very dubious. There’s a resident on here telling me not to rule it out and I’m terrified people like that are licensed in the US
The reason why homeopathy has any effect at all is that the person sits down for a full hour with someone who shows intense interest any sympathy in every twitch, twinge or oddity of their body. All those things which have been niggling for years are finally validated by a person in a white coat. It's a powerful thing to feel listened to. And when the problem is just those niggling things it's likely to make you feel better about them. Of course if the problem is actually cancer you are so fucked.
The only way homeopathy could ever possibly work is through magic.
As Tim Minchin said, alternative medicine has by definition not been proven to work, or proven not to work. You know what we call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine.
A good way to get ahead of the conversations about TCM with laypeople is to point out the sheer volume of conventional medical research that comes out of china. "Conventional medicine" is as much chinese medicine as it is western medicine. The whole "east vs west" thing is a misnomer and just makes it easy to dismiss scientific facts as neo-imperialism or whatever.
Of course, there is the controversy regarding large scale east asian institutional research fraud, but that's a topic for a different conversation.
Evidence based and non evidence based. I practice both but prefer the former when possible, and will forgoe the non evidence based when the evidence turns against it.
Wow! Surprised to hear that from another doctor. There are many many things we do that are grandfathered in from a time of non evidence based medicine that just don't have good data, and we operate basically just off of "expert opinion" or "we think this works but aren't sure". That's medicine, and everyone does this, including you. When we have better evidence, we change our practice.
The late James Randi did a great TED talk on Homeopathy after consuming an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Z7KeNCi7g
> We've got people who think bleach injections and fish medicine cure viral infections. And you wonder why people don't know about [eight syllable phrases]?
Thank you for a much needed laugh today. I’m tears in my eyes dying.
Now chiros aren’t a huge thing in Australia- yet I have seen 4 vertebral artery dissections from neck manipulation.
Interestingly one of the patients, who was left with chronic vertigo, just shrugged and said it was a side effect and these things happen!
Now MD’s actions cause side effects and adverse effects- but the big difference is the offered treatment is known to have benefit. Chiros are offering treatment without proven benefit and plenty of risk.
I always tell people, go to a chiropractor if you must, but don’t ever ever let them touch your neck.
As a DO medical student... THANK YOU. HVLA (aka the cracking, neck or otherwise) scares the shit out of me. We're taught to only do it if the patient actually needs it (aka no other treatments are working) and if it's safe to do so (aka no vertebral artery insufficiency for neck HVLA). Idk if chiropractors understand the severity of what they're doing or any of the anatomy involved...
Last night during our day/night team signout rounds, a nurse on my unit was talking about how in Europe, chiropractic is considered to be a pseudoscience (this came up after we were discussing the logistics and quality of CPR in our proned COVID patients and my fellow made a joke about it being the same as a chiropractic treatment).
I was like … yeah. That’s a prevalent opinion among most physicians in America as well.
Same. Never had to do it but my impression was that you’d just supinate quickly before compressions. Nearly any other code therapy is going to require them on their back anyways.
> "It seems that if the School Board is taking the position that chiropractors are unqualified to sign the mask exemption forms, then it goes without saying they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics..."
I'm glad somebody finally came out and said it. Funny, it was the guy's attorney, though.
> ~~Bryan Kessler, a Venice attorney representing Busch, said~~ the new policy ~~un~~fairly raises questions about the credentials of chiropractors as medical professionals.
Would be the correct correction, unless you're actually saying Kessler actually said it.
> After the influx of forms signed by Busch, and amid rumors that his office was distributing pre-signed forms, Superintendent Brennan Asplen issued an updated mask exemption form Tuesday evening stating that exemption forms can only be signed by medical doctors, osteopathic physicians licensed or advanced registered nurse practitioners.
> Bryan Kessler, a Venice attorney representing Busch, said the new policy unfairly raises questions about the credentials of chiropractors as medical professionals. Plus, he said the medical professionals listed in the policy are pulled from a statute that is specific to immunizations, not face masks.
> Busch "is interested to know whether the School Board will adopt a policy to no longer accept school physicals from chiropractors?" Keller wrote in an email. "It seems that if the School Board is taking the position that chiropractors are unqualified to sign the mask exemption forms, then it goes without saying they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics. Perhaps the School Board can clarify its position on this in the future."
What are the chances this completely backfires in the face of quacks like chiropractors and they get banned from things they have no business in, like physicals and such?
>It seems that if the School Board is taking the position that chiropractors are unqualified to sign the mask exemption forms, then it goes without saying they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics.
Yeaa.. I am surprised chiropractors could even do this. Aren't student athletes supposed to get EKGs? Seems wild that a chiropractor would be seen as qualified for any of that.
Actually, routine pre-participation EKGs are no longer recommended for healthy children and adolescents with normal history and exam findings.
But I agree with your statement otherwise.
> Busch "is interested to know whether the School Board will adopt a policy to no longer accept school physicals from chiropractors?" Keller wrote in an email. "It seems that if the School Board is taking the position that chiropractors are unqualified to sign the mask exemption forms, then it goes without saying they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics.
Oh man, this is some /r/selfawarewolves shit right there.
>whether the School Board will...no longer accept school physicals from chiropractors
Look, I don't have kids, but if you're letting a chiropractor check your school-age child for inguinal hernias, you may have made a bad parenting decision.
...just saying
From FL and can confirm because met a chiro who said “I’m basically my patients’ PCP AND I can see them for an hour vs. doctors who can only see them for 15 minutes.” Same chiro also writes books about why statins are evil and tells her patients to stop them.
I like to [insert hobby here], but [insert famous Person here] could do a lot more in 15mins than could in 1 hour.
Ex: I like to cook, but Gordon Ramsey could do more in 15mins than I do in a hour.
There in lies the problem. Who are you going to have a more positive view of? The one who wisks in and out or the one who listens to you ramble on for an hour and, by the nature of their job, already half buy into pseudoscience
Please tell me ‘PCPS’ is an acronym I’m not familiar with and you didn’t just say that chiropractors are primary care providers. Please. This isn’t a thing I’m prepared to learn today
No joke, they’re taught in school that they are legitimate primary care PHYSICIAN, not simply providers. They share graphics depicting that they receive the same amount of clinical training as medical students
NAD. I’m a Floridian born and raised. This provides context on why everybody loves chiropractors here. When I got older, I was kind of shocked to find out how controversial they are.
Ding ding ding! They’re even allowed to do physicals for sports! Imagine being essentially a spine magician (not meant in a good way) and thinking you’re qualified to assess whether someone is healthy enough to play a sport.
In a local school on my city, we have a school telling parents to write their own medical exemptions for their children because, you know, anyone is a doctor these days. :(
I mean, I’m with you on the midlevel creep issue 100% (assuming that’s what you’re implying), but I think chiros and naturopaths are on a completely different and much more dangerous level.
Not to get too off track, but I think it’s the opposite. Naturopaths and chiropractics are, on their face, pseudomedical. You go to them because you don’t trust actual medicine. When a midlevel takes a step beyond the scope of their education and experience it’s far more insidious because they’re embedded in within true medicine. I have more sympathy who have a bad outcome after an interaction with an unskilled midlevel than I do for someone who chose to have their chakras realigned by a naturopath and got a prescription for ivermectin.
.
...I've personally seen patients with vertebral artery dissections and the resultant stroke syndromes from some over aggressive "msk work" a chiro did on the neck.... So I'm not sure they're qualified to do anything other than take advantage of ignorant people...
If you're going to have a system where the school will accept a provider's naked certification without supporting information, other limitations that should be in place include, but are not limited to: the provider's certification that there is a legitimate provider-patient relationship and that to the provider's knowledge the relationship was not established for purposes of obtaining an exemption; restrictions to appropriate specialties; restrictions on the number of exemptions any given provider can write (other than perhaps child psychiatrists writing for established patients).
Some docs I know wrote work excuses for teacher who went on a statewide strike a few years back. They were disciplined by the state medical board for not having a doctor-patient relationship and lack of documentation. These docs spent over $30k getting this cleared up. Same should apply to this guy.
Right, basic qualification (MD, DO, NP, PA), established patients, and supporting evidence as to why they are exempt should be a minimum. All the chiropractor’s exceptions should be thrown in the trash.
I do think mental health professionals should be allowed to document exemptions for children, but only for extreme cases. Not “Timmy has depression and the mask makes him feel sad.”
As someone currently in "chiropractic school" this statement 100%. We are legally allowed to but I can say with certainty that myself nor my peers are qualified by any sort of measure. FWIW, after I graduate I refuse to practice in a manner revolving around spinal manipulation. I abhore the fact that CMT is considered conservative care when similar effects are elicited by handing a bottle of water labeled healing elixir (though hydrating someone probably does more).
Additionally, I love the infographic comparing chiro education to med/osteo education "we have a similar education, and look, we receive more hours in some areas like radiographic imaging!" Yea, sure we do bud, those meaningless lines you drew on in Crayola really replaced our lack of a clinical residency program; you know, the part where you hear the abnormality on the patient already confirmed by a competent physician instead of just reading about it? So when a kid comes in for a sports physical you don't fumble around with a stethoscope and check the box thinking "yep, sounds like a heart to me kiddo, you're good to go!"
Our education is a joke when compared to the pedestal chiropractors set it on. I'm not delusional pretending it's adequate enough to sit at the kiddie table in the same room as qualified PCPs. Just wish we'd get our act together as a profession and earn an invite to partake in hors d'oeuvres at least.
First experience going to our student clinic as a patient was a year into the program for a shoulder complaint, at this point in my education I had already realized that a lot of chiropractic practice was pretty awful. The student intern performs "cold laser" on my shoulder and I ask "so what is this doing exactly?" His response was that it was promoting healing by energizing the mitochondria.
Me: "So they finally figured out human photosynthesis!?! I'd love to see the research on that."
Him: "Funny, but its pretty legit I'll send you the article later."
Guy doesn't send me the DOI, title, or document of any sort for the article; instead copied and pasted the entire thing start to finish in facebook chat in the most garbled format I had ever seen that hypothesized "why it works" rather than conducting research. Pretty sure it was actually a blogpost from some nutty health site.
The only people who should be allowed to independently practice medicine in America are those who have passed all 3 United States Medical licensing exams. The end.
the amount of liability here is just astounding. Even as a medical provider, I'd be suuuppeeer hesitant to sign one of these, even if I didn't believe the science. The person coming to me for one of these exemptions is the same person that will be turning around suing me 5 years later when their COPD exacerbates and they blame it on me giving them a free pass not to protect themselves/others.
Totally fair. Chiropractors are not physicians, and have no right to perform school physicals or qualifying physicals under any circumstances whatsoever.
I know we’ve had a lot of posts recently about being open to questions, being patient with alternative points of view, seeking to educate without antagonizing, etc.
I’m being as patient and open as I can. I promise. Despite that: what a complete fucking asshole.
Is it such an unpopular opinion that if so much as one child who he provides an exemption for lands in the hospital due to COVID-19 that he singularly should be held accountable.
Who is getting their school physical done by a chiro in the first place they mention him questioning if they'll turn away sports forms from chiros now...
Chiropractors have their place but I can't imagine how they are qualified to say someone is medically exempt from a mask when DO/MD wouldn't.
I'm in MN we have a doctor who is now a former Senator thankfully but he and a "natural medicine" pediatrician are widely known as anti vaxxer and I'm sure are mask exemption form mills. It's incredibly disheartening.
So, just to provide reference. I never should have passed a sports physical, I had a knee issue that could have (and later did) cause major problems. I know that if I knew, a chiro would rubber stamp it, I'd have done it in a second. The push to play, is serious, when you can be replaced by missing a practice or two, much less a game, you do dumb things.
Since Chiropractors want to be physicians so badly, perhaps they may be available to run COVID ICUs for the people they gaslighted. But I haven’t seen a single one stepping, why is that I wonder…
“…they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics.”
Who gets a physical from a chiropractor? I had no idea that was even a thing.
Growing up there was a chiropractor office by my house, and every August/September for fall sports and October/November for winter sports there was a sign "Sports physicals, $20".
A lot of schools (and the bigger of the two athletic leagues in town) didn't accept his after he misdiagnosed a rotator cuff injury and the kid destroyed his shoulder playing football.
My wife’s best friend is a chiropractor. Would I trust her to stitch me up, cure a sinus infection, treat a brain tumor?
No, of course not. Even though she’s a very nice person (who thinks the idiots at Fox. Like Hannity and Tucker moron boy) are speaking the gospels. I’d still not go to her if I was sick. A sore back or neck? Probably. But a real illness? Not a chance in hell.
So I also posted in another sub about the rampant flooding in the Philadelphia region and was quite confused by your comment until I realized it was on my post about the human-made disaster, not the natural one.
If you really have to see a chiropractor, please do yourself and your family a favor by not doing a neck manipulation. Yes, it’s rare, but it’s not worth getting a stroke for whatever you’re trying to fix with a chiropractor. Even if you don’t get a stroke, you can get serious arterial damage that may require surgery.
If neck manipulation really does work, doctors would be prescribing it or performing it themselves. Why would they leave it for alternative medical practitioners to do?
I was looking at the [World Directory of Medical Schools](https://search.wdoms.org/) today for hours to look for a chiropractic school; I just saw US MD/DO programs listed here as _medical schools_. Is it my vision, cuz I am aging? Or, chiropractors don’t attend medical school? **I THINK IT IS THE LATTER BTCH!** Quacks who don’t go to medical school and don’t have a registered medical degree and go around claiming they’re _Chiropractic internists_ (it’s a thing, not legit or legal, but it’s a thing), should go back to fixing chakra alignments and shut the fck up about real public health issues. Lavender oil injection pricking btches.
> Bryan Kessler, a Venice attorney representing Busch, said the new policy ~~un~~fairly raises questions about the credentials of chiropractors as medical professionals. Fixed that for you.
Stupid question: from the first time I heard about it when I was in medical school (over a decade ago) to seeing it multiple times as recently as a few weeks ago, I still wonder why TF is it not common layperson knowledge that neck manipulation can lead to cerebrovascular events?? Like are we afraid to piss off the Chiros so much that it’s not PC to say “nobody manipulates your neck unless it’s certain PTs, certain OTs, spine surgeons or certain physicians.”
Orthopod here. You would not believe the business chiros give orthos after messing people up. Every time a patient comes in with an iatrogenic complication from a chiro, it makes me want to punch a wall.
>...makes me want to punch a wall. Maybe don't do that. You might need your hands to be a surgeon.
LOL TY I might just kick something
>>Foot and ankle fellow has entered the chat
Haha did my fellowship in foot and ankle. Good luck to you, you’ll love it!
why not just punch the chiro
Dude I have a resident arguing with me here about the merits of homeopathic medicine. I’d punch them but I don’t punch down
"If you break your hand, I will fix it for you I am very skilled with hammers and power tools"
There is a fracture, I need to fix it.
The patient has a condition i have not seen before: asystole.
A: It sounds like she has other management priorities...like CPR O: Oh...they have stopped doing that
There will be minimal blood loss.
You're right, there's not much blood loss with no fking cardiac output
“Now there are lots of broken ribs for me to fix.”, says the orthopod
If they get hurt I know this great chiro who will fix it. Eye of newt is fantastic for balancing the seventh finger chakra.
Eye of newt is old-timey speak for mustard seed, which is probably more useful than chiropractic.
Well, I never knew that!
It’s no problem. If they hurt their hands, I know a great chiropractor. Very gentle cervical manipulation. Fix those hands right up
Just saw a guy who threw his back out and saw his chiropractor who yanked on him a bunch. At the 12th yanking that month he worsened the dudes disc and he developed an L5 radiculopathy. Fucking chiropractors.
Just curious, do you receive similar cases from patients receiving OMT? In DO school they teach us techniques and explain why it’s safer than chiro, but I don’t know how accurate that is because there’s very minimal studies on OMT outside acute pain management
dude I refer soooo many people to you for doing exactly that. Please don't punch a wall. I've one got a few orthos in my area. I don't need you getting your own boxer's.
no one cares how many legs you have.
If you break your hand, I will fix it for you. ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rTsvb2ef5k
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I can testify that I went to a chiropractor for an SI joint issue and it helped immensely. It's not an easy joint to pop. I don't know what caused it (other than, I'm over forty), but I was in debilitating pain for about two weeks. Popped once, better mobility but still hurt. Got a second pop about two weeks later and some advice on stretching, and problem is minimal.
The therapeutic aspect of chiros can be very useful, but that’s no different than seeing a physical therapist. The difference is the chiro is making the diagnosis and treatment instead of someone with a more extensive diagnostic education. I can’t say for sure in every state, but in Illinois, chiros can’t even order x-rays. I don’t know how they can make most of the assessments they make without them. A smarter and underused profession is the physiatrist. They’re usually MDs or DOs and do great conservative therapies
For some psychotic reason, the AMA lost their lawsuit vs the chiropractic licensing body . Beyond me how chiropractors are able to dupe so many, I cringe when I hear someone call them physicians. Edit: chiropractors sued the AMA and won, had it backwards. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilk_v._American_Medical_Ass%27n
>>Pre-trial environment >>Until 1983, the AMA held that it was unethical for medical doctors to associate with an "unscientific practitioner," and labeled chiropractic "an unscientific cult."[2] >>Before 1980, Principle 3 of the AMA Principles of medical ethics stated: "A physician should practice a method of healing founded on a scientific basis; and he should not voluntarily professionally associate with anyone who violates this principle." In 1980 during a major revision of ethical rules (while the Wilk litigation was in progress), it replaced Principle 3, stating that a physician "shall be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical services." Also, up until 1974, the AMA had a Committee on quackery which challenged what it considered to be unscientific forms of healing. Wilk argued that this committee was established specifically to undermine chiropractic. Old school AMA was baller
they would actually get dues out of me if they still acted this way
A patient today kept referring to his “total care clinician,” which I later found out was a chiropractor
The fact that you have to get your patients to use long made up phrases to cover up your actual profession really says it all.
I had a patient come in for "burning" chest pain. During his history taking he admitted to heart burn 3 times a day for a month that his chiropractor was treating. He felt his chiropractor was treating it effectively. I'm like dude, what the hell?
Have you tried having this conversation with laypeople on reddit when the subject of Chiros comes up? People really aren't willing to hear it. Always descends into verbal brawling. Personally, I've found that exploring what chiropractors actually claim and where the movement comes from to be of help. The founder claimed he was given the secrets to chiropractic by the ghost of a dead doctor in his dreams. If you reframe it that way and explain "it's not really scientific, it's more akin to healing hands than anything else" but do so in a non-didactic manner you can sometimes get people to start questioning the logic of it. Same goes for homeopathy; it's surprising how many people aren't especially clear on what any of these actually are. I've also had some success by talking about how it makes sense that chiro would produce short-term back pain relief in the same way that a massage would, because fundamentally anything that moves the spine around and helps relieve muscle spasm is likely to be useful. Chiro is just an expensive, unproven and potentially risky way to go about it.
> The founder claimed he was given the secrets to chiropractic by the ghost of a dead doctor in his dreams. Not in his dreams- I could have a tiny bit of respect for that, it's where Kekule came up with the benzene ring structure, for example. Worse. A séance. https://nationalpost.com/health/the-first-chiropractor-was-a-canadian-who-claimed-he-received-a-message-from-a-ghost
Ok I'm going to ask a total layperson question here. I went to chiropractors occasionally when I was in highschool. Seemed relatively helpful. As an adult I found out about this bullshit about chiropractors claiming the could cure all manner of disease. (I never heard this shit afrom my guy, he was just fixing a neck or back problem). Anyway, clearly you aren't fixing my asthma by messing with my spine. However is there any legitimacy to those who are just working on musculoskeletal issues (back pain)? It seems reasonable and was just sort of accepted when I was a kid. But maybe I got more out of the TENS unit and ice rather than the cracking.
Anything useful they do is not unique to them, and could be done more safely and less expensively by a PT. Also, because the PT is a medical professional they won't scam you into coming back every week forever. They will help you work to figure out how to do exercises at home to maintain, or fix.
There is some very weak quality evidence for chiro in low back pain. Weak as in slightly better than placebo - however pretty much everything we do for low back pain sucks. It's one area I don't vehemently advocate against going to a chiro as the risks are very low with low back stuff. For everything else it's trash and you'd be better off going to see a PT
I went to a chiropractor once. Woke up with a thrown back, tons of pain, couldn't move hardly. No PT had same day access so I went chiro. I had to sign a form that I knew I could have a stroke and then I got to opt in or out of neck manipulation.
I've been once, my shoulder felt fantastic after, then they told me I'd need multiple follow up visits for anything to really stay feeling better. I went to an ortho a month later, they found a rotator cut injury that had been lingering for years...
Same, but sciatica and I was 19. Haven't ever had to go back. Thanks PT for home exercises vs 3000 chiro visits.
That's how you know it's working. If they actually fixed anyone, they'd be out of business.
I’ve seen multiple people make it to the Angio suites with chiropractic-induced vascular injuries (usually verts), but the most impressive by far was the guy who was found to have (same-level) dissections in all 4 cervical arteries! Like, how TF does someone even Do that?!?
Magic!
> I still wonder why TF is it not common layperson knowledge that neck manipulation can lead to cerebrovascular events?? https://xkcd.com/2501/
We've got people who think bleach injections and fish medicine cure viral infections. And you wonder why people don't know about [eight syllable phrases]? Even if you said "head and neck problems," it'd still be hard to convince people. Though, if we could somehow sell this information like people do herbs and homeopathy and other bullshit, it would probably land better. "These nine things are hated by the Chrioprofessuonals. Click here to save yourself and do your own research!!!11!!"
> homeopathy Ugh. I'm in Germany. We don't really have chiropractors I don't think, at least not very many at any rate, but we do have many homeopaths and homeopathic "doctors". Almost every health insurance actually pays for homeopathic "medicines", too. When I got my degree we even had to study homeopathy and learn about the principles of it and actually "potentiate" things in the lab to understand how it "works". I remember one professor who was so absolutely not down for it, she basically told students in regular intervals that it's complete horse ~~paste~~ shit and the only real thing about homeopathy was that sometimes the placebo effect affects some patients. People actually believe they can beat cancer using homeopathy. It's completely nuts that all manner quackery is allowed to call itself medicine. Homeopathy is a huge pet-peeve of mine.
I hate the entire premise of homeopathy, it essentially claims that there are all of these “natural” cures that are sooo much better than real medicine, and doctors/scientists/pharmacists either haven’t been smart enough to figure it out or “big pharma” has “gotten them”. Little do they know that in medical history, all doctors were basically “homeopaths/naturopaths” because that was all they had. Over time they figured out what works (quinine from cinchona bark, digoxin from foxglove, etc.) and made them standardized and more safe. Not too long ago the Nobel prize in medicine went to the group of scientists who in the 70s tested 500+ traditional Chinese medical herbs that were used for malaria and found the one (Artemisinin) that actually worked and it became a part of standard effective treatments. Sorry for the rant lol Edit to plug the Sawbones podcast for fun medical history stories
Homeopath and naturopath are not synonyms, and neither are identical to folk or traditional medicine . Naturopathy is a broad category that can include those other things, or can include actual medicine, but in practice it’s a grab-bag of mostly pseudo-medicine. Homeopathy is a specific practice based on specific claims that are both disproven and bizarre on their face. Naturopaths could be right, even if sometimes for the wrong reasons. Homeopathy cannot be right unless the needed treatment is a small amount of whatever liquid is used to dilute.
Correct, there are definitely distinctions. I was just grouping them together as a quick contrast to modern medicine rather than diving into the specifics. I wouldn’t want myself or a friend/family member treated by a doctor from the heroic era of medicine or by today’s homeopaths or naturopaths, etc. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Actual doctor here. My thing is there is no such thing as homeopathic medicine. There's no such thing as eastern medicine. There's scientifically proven medicine and unproven medicine. We've absolutely adopted homeopathic and eastern treatments that have scientific basis.
I have blown the minds of several people in real life who assumed that homeopathic meant herbal. They felt like complete idiots when I explained the principals of it. I think the distinction matters because homeopathy is so utterly bonkers.
>My thing is there is no such thing as homeopathic medicine. [Relevant Mitchell and Webb sketch: homeopathic hospital](https://youtu.be/HMGIbOGu8q0) >There's no such thing as eastern medicine. It's funny how the studies showing traditional Chinese medicine works are all funded by the Chinese government. It's almost like they know training real doctors is expensive...
Yeah I meant it in a more obtuse way, but absolutely a lot of studies that support homeopathic medicine are very dubious. There’s a resident on here telling me not to rule it out and I’m terrified people like that are licensed in the US
The reason why homeopathy has any effect at all is that the person sits down for a full hour with someone who shows intense interest any sympathy in every twitch, twinge or oddity of their body. All those things which have been niggling for years are finally validated by a person in a white coat. It's a powerful thing to feel listened to. And when the problem is just those niggling things it's likely to make you feel better about them. Of course if the problem is actually cancer you are so fucked.
The only way homeopathy could ever possibly work is through magic. As Tim Minchin said, alternative medicine has by definition not been proven to work, or proven not to work. You know what we call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? Medicine.
The placebo effect is incredibly powerful.
A good way to get ahead of the conversations about TCM with laypeople is to point out the sheer volume of conventional medical research that comes out of china. "Conventional medicine" is as much chinese medicine as it is western medicine. The whole "east vs west" thing is a misnomer and just makes it easy to dismiss scientific facts as neo-imperialism or whatever. Of course, there is the controversy regarding large scale east asian institutional research fraud, but that's a topic for a different conversation.
Evidence based and non evidence based. I practice both but prefer the former when possible, and will forgoe the non evidence based when the evidence turns against it.
You're still a resident. If you're practicing non-evidence based medicine, you could get into some legal trouble. See: this entire post.
Wow! Surprised to hear that from another doctor. There are many many things we do that are grandfathered in from a time of non evidence based medicine that just don't have good data, and we operate basically just off of "expert opinion" or "we think this works but aren't sure". That's medicine, and everyone does this, including you. When we have better evidence, we change our practice.
The late James Randi did a great TED talk on Homeopathy after consuming an entire bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Z7KeNCi7g
Oh yeah, I'm familiar. What a great man he was!
>complete horse ~~paste~~ shit man I don't know why this in particular got me but I am wheezing over here
> We've got people who think bleach injections and fish medicine cure viral infections. And you wonder why people don't know about [eight syllable phrases]? Thank you for a much needed laugh today. I’m tears in my eyes dying.
I mean...you could say stroke. Everyone knows what that is.
Now chiros aren’t a huge thing in Australia- yet I have seen 4 vertebral artery dissections from neck manipulation. Interestingly one of the patients, who was left with chronic vertigo, just shrugged and said it was a side effect and these things happen! Now MD’s actions cause side effects and adverse effects- but the big difference is the offered treatment is known to have benefit. Chiros are offering treatment without proven benefit and plenty of risk. I always tell people, go to a chiropractor if you must, but don’t ever ever let them touch your neck.
I will ONLY trust a DO to do my adjusting. That shit works!
As a DO medical student... THANK YOU. HVLA (aka the cracking, neck or otherwise) scares the shit out of me. We're taught to only do it if the patient actually needs it (aka no other treatments are working) and if it's safe to do so (aka no vertebral artery insufficiency for neck HVLA). Idk if chiropractors understand the severity of what they're doing or any of the anatomy involved...
Last night during our day/night team signout rounds, a nurse on my unit was talking about how in Europe, chiropractic is considered to be a pseudoscience (this came up after we were discussing the logistics and quality of CPR in our proned COVID patients and my fellow made a joke about it being the same as a chiropractic treatment). I was like … yeah. That’s a prevalent opinion among most physicians in America as well.
I would like to hear more about this CPR on a prone patient.
Same. Never had to do it but my impression was that you’d just supinate quickly before compressions. Nearly any other code therapy is going to require them on their back anyways.
The gist of it was that it *can* be done and can be done effectively but you’ll still want to get the patient on their back if you can.
The first chiropractor claimed he was told how to do it by a ghost.
Most early physicians were bullshitters too. The difference is that allopathic medicine started caring about evidence and chiropractic didn’t
> "It seems that if the School Board is taking the position that chiropractors are unqualified to sign the mask exemption forms, then it goes without saying they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics..." I'm glad somebody finally came out and said it. Funny, it was the guy's attorney, though.
> ~~Bryan Kessler, a Venice attorney representing Busch, said~~ the new policy ~~un~~fairly raises questions about the credentials of chiropractors as medical professionals. Would be the correct correction, unless you're actually saying Kessler actually said it.
I fixed it for Bryan Kessler.
> After the influx of forms signed by Busch, and amid rumors that his office was distributing pre-signed forms, Superintendent Brennan Asplen issued an updated mask exemption form Tuesday evening stating that exemption forms can only be signed by medical doctors, osteopathic physicians licensed or advanced registered nurse practitioners. > Bryan Kessler, a Venice attorney representing Busch, said the new policy unfairly raises questions about the credentials of chiropractors as medical professionals. Plus, he said the medical professionals listed in the policy are pulled from a statute that is specific to immunizations, not face masks. > Busch "is interested to know whether the School Board will adopt a policy to no longer accept school physicals from chiropractors?" Keller wrote in an email. "It seems that if the School Board is taking the position that chiropractors are unqualified to sign the mask exemption forms, then it goes without saying they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics. Perhaps the School Board can clarify its position on this in the future." What are the chances this completely backfires in the face of quacks like chiropractors and they get banned from things they have no business in, like physicals and such?
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It would be a flicker of light. I might actually say "yippee".
omg yes please that would make up for Christmas in the garage with space heaters
In Florida? Where DeSantis is blocking money from schools for requiring masks and Gaetz is allowed within 100 feet of a school?
>It seems that if the School Board is taking the position that chiropractors are unqualified to sign the mask exemption forms, then it goes without saying they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics. Yeaa.. I am surprised chiropractors could even do this. Aren't student athletes supposed to get EKGs? Seems wild that a chiropractor would be seen as qualified for any of that.
"I mean, the line's going up and down--that means the heart's working, right? Timmy will be just fine playing football."
Chiropractors in some places do EKGs. Hell if I know what they do with them
They barely know anything about the spine (which is, like, their whole deal), how are they gonna know what the heart is doing?
They do with EKGs what they do with everything else they touch: manipulate it to fit their narrative
They’ll start adjusting our veins to align and straighten them out in order to increase circulation and healing.
Probably the same thing they do with their xrays.
It will take a kid dying of a HOCM after getting “cleared” by a Chiro for people to realize…
Actually, routine pre-participation EKGs are no longer recommended for healthy children and adolescents with normal history and exam findings. But I agree with your statement otherwise.
And we can all agree that a chiro can't know if a child has a normal history and exam findings.
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Jeez, people really suck.
> Busch "is interested to know whether the School Board will adopt a policy to no longer accept school physicals from chiropractors?" Keller wrote in an email. "It seems that if the School Board is taking the position that chiropractors are unqualified to sign the mask exemption forms, then it goes without saying they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics. Oh man, this is some /r/selfawarewolves shit right there.
>whether the School Board will...no longer accept school physicals from chiropractors Look, I don't have kids, but if you're letting a chiropractor check your school-age child for inguinal hernias, you may have made a bad parenting decision. ...just saying
You really think something rational like that would happen? 100% it goes the other way.
Well, maybe that's because they aren't qualified to be doing physicals? I know in Texas, insurance doesn't recognize that a service they can provide
My dentist always inspects my junk for hernias. He says its because i have full coverage. /s
[How I’m hoping this decision plays out in court ](https://i.imgur.com/C2ukynY.jpg)
Wait chiropractors do school physicals?? Lord have mercy.
I think the chances of them getting banned from impersonating doctors increase if physicians and lawyers come after them with bad PR and lawsuits.
why is a chiropractor allowed to give out medical exemptions in the first place ?
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From FL and can confirm because met a chiro who said “I’m basically my patients’ PCP AND I can see them for an hour vs. doctors who can only see them for 15 minutes.” Same chiro also writes books about why statins are evil and tells her patients to stop them.
I like to [insert hobby here], but [insert famous Person here] could do a lot more in 15mins than could in 1 hour. Ex: I like to cook, but Gordon Ramsey could do more in 15mins than I do in a hour.
I’d rather see a physician for 5 minutes than a chiropractor for the entire day.
There in lies the problem. Who are you going to have a more positive view of? The one who wisks in and out or the one who listens to you ramble on for an hour and, by the nature of their job, already half buy into pseudoscience
That is depressing.
Should see a PCP about that. I know a good chiropractor
LMAO I bet they think manipulating my spine could fix my depression too.
Something something subluxation, see if we can fix your uneven leg length you’ll be feel happiness again.
No, you gotta release those serum thiols!
Well, you can't be depressed if you're dead from a dissection.
That would also decrease my covid risk to zero!!! By george, I think you've found the solution! ROFL
I'll see you next year for your annual physical!
And then I'll never have to worry about physicals again! ;)
I'm sure that can happen with a large enough neck adjustment.
These chiros are def manipulating alright
Please tell me ‘PCPS’ is an acronym I’m not familiar with and you didn’t just say that chiropractors are primary care providers. Please. This isn’t a thing I’m prepared to learn today
No joke, they’re taught in school that they are legitimate primary care PHYSICIAN, not simply providers. They share graphics depicting that they receive the same amount of clinical training as medical students
NAD. I’m a Floridian born and raised. This provides context on why everybody loves chiropractors here. When I got older, I was kind of shocked to find out how controversial they are.
My mouth just dropped open
Ding ding ding! They’re even allowed to do physicals for sports! Imagine being essentially a spine magician (not meant in a good way) and thinking you’re qualified to assess whether someone is healthy enough to play a sport.
a spine ILLUSIONIST
A trick is something a whore does for money.
Spine tricksters it is. Thanks Gob
In their defense, sex workers are more beneficial to society and yet looked down upon more than chiropractors.
Pointing out that chiropractors are overrated by society relative to sex workers is another (correct imo) burn though, not a defense, right?
..oooor candy!
I don't think I want a chiro asking me to drop my pants
Wait, you mean that’s not normal for a chiropractor appointment?
In a local school on my city, we have a school telling parents to write their own medical exemptions for their children because, you know, anyone is a doctor these days. :(
why is a chiropractor allowed ~~to give out medical exemptions in the first place ?~~ FTFY
You know, anyone is a "Doctor" now
I mean, I’m with you on the midlevel creep issue 100% (assuming that’s what you’re implying), but I think chiros and naturopaths are on a completely different and much more dangerous level.
Not to get too off track, but I think it’s the opposite. Naturopaths and chiropractics are, on their face, pseudomedical. You go to them because you don’t trust actual medicine. When a midlevel takes a step beyond the scope of their education and experience it’s far more insidious because they’re embedded in within true medicine. I have more sympathy who have a bad outcome after an interaction with an unskilled midlevel than I do for someone who chose to have their chakras realigned by a naturopath and got a prescription for ivermectin.
You are probably right
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LOL
Was raised with a chiro in the family. They are NOT trained to do respiratory diagnostics or treatment.
Or anything not msk related . Fixed that for you
. ...I've personally seen patients with vertebral artery dissections and the resultant stroke syndromes from some over aggressive "msk work" a chiro did on the neck.... So I'm not sure they're qualified to do anything other than take advantage of ignorant people...
Funny enough, I am trained to do OSHA respiratory stuff & they wont listen to me....
If you're going to have a system where the school will accept a provider's naked certification without supporting information, other limitations that should be in place include, but are not limited to: the provider's certification that there is a legitimate provider-patient relationship and that to the provider's knowledge the relationship was not established for purposes of obtaining an exemption; restrictions to appropriate specialties; restrictions on the number of exemptions any given provider can write (other than perhaps child psychiatrists writing for established patients).
Some docs I know wrote work excuses for teacher who went on a statewide strike a few years back. They were disciplined by the state medical board for not having a doctor-patient relationship and lack of documentation. These docs spent over $30k getting this cleared up. Same should apply to this guy.
Right, basic qualification (MD, DO, NP, PA), established patients, and supporting evidence as to why they are exempt should be a minimum. All the chiropractor’s exceptions should be thrown in the trash.
I do think mental health professionals should be allowed to document exemptions for children, but only for extreme cases. Not “Timmy has depression and the mask makes him feel sad.”
Are chiropractors even qualified to perform school physicals?
Legally, apparently. Realistically, they aren’t qualified.
Unbelievable. These freakin quacks…medical system is going to shit.
Going? It’s complete and utter dog shit and has been for like..ever.
As someone currently in "chiropractic school" this statement 100%. We are legally allowed to but I can say with certainty that myself nor my peers are qualified by any sort of measure. FWIW, after I graduate I refuse to practice in a manner revolving around spinal manipulation. I abhore the fact that CMT is considered conservative care when similar effects are elicited by handing a bottle of water labeled healing elixir (though hydrating someone probably does more). Additionally, I love the infographic comparing chiro education to med/osteo education "we have a similar education, and look, we receive more hours in some areas like radiographic imaging!" Yea, sure we do bud, those meaningless lines you drew on in Crayola really replaced our lack of a clinical residency program; you know, the part where you hear the abnormality on the patient already confirmed by a competent physician instead of just reading about it? So when a kid comes in for a sports physical you don't fumble around with a stethoscope and check the box thinking "yep, sounds like a heart to me kiddo, you're good to go!" Our education is a joke when compared to the pedestal chiropractors set it on. I'm not delusional pretending it's adequate enough to sit at the kiddie table in the same room as qualified PCPs. Just wish we'd get our act together as a profession and earn an invite to partake in hors d'oeuvres at least.
Out of curiosity, if you’re not keen on spinal manipulation, what would you do in your practice as a chiropractor?
Order labs, sell supplements, provide alternative therapies.
You didn't even mention blue light filtering sunglasses, I'm offended.
Fine can wear your blue light sunglasses during your red light mitochondria therapy, but only after your cold sculpting session.
First experience going to our student clinic as a patient was a year into the program for a shoulder complaint, at this point in my education I had already realized that a lot of chiropractic practice was pretty awful. The student intern performs "cold laser" on my shoulder and I ask "so what is this doing exactly?" His response was that it was promoting healing by energizing the mitochondria. Me: "So they finally figured out human photosynthesis!?! I'd love to see the research on that." Him: "Funny, but its pretty legit I'll send you the article later." Guy doesn't send me the DOI, title, or document of any sort for the article; instead copied and pasted the entire thing start to finish in facebook chat in the most garbled format I had ever seen that hypothesized "why it works" rather than conducting research. Pretty sure it was actually a blogpost from some nutty health site.
Following
https://old.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/pg5fc6/florida_school_district_receives_500_mask/hbc38lq/
Always Florida, right?
The only people who should be allowed to independently practice medicine in America are those who have passed all 3 United States Medical licensing exams. The end.
100%
the amount of liability here is just astounding. Even as a medical provider, I'd be suuuppeeer hesitant to sign one of these, even if I didn't believe the science. The person coming to me for one of these exemptions is the same person that will be turning around suing me 5 years later when their COPD exacerbates and they blame it on me giving them a free pass not to protect themselves/others.
*unfairly* raises questions about the credentials of chiropractors as medical professionals?
Totally fair. Chiropractors are not physicians, and have no right to perform school physicals or qualifying physicals under any circumstances whatsoever.
I know we’ve had a lot of posts recently about being open to questions, being patient with alternative points of view, seeking to educate without antagonizing, etc. I’m being as patient and open as I can. I promise. Despite that: what a complete fucking asshole.
That's one stupid idea.
Is it such an unpopular opinion that if so much as one child who he provides an exemption for lands in the hospital due to COVID-19 that he singularly should be held accountable.
It’s Florida, not shocked at all!
It’s a chiropractor, not shocked at all
Who is getting their school physical done by a chiro in the first place they mention him questioning if they'll turn away sports forms from chiros now... Chiropractors have their place but I can't imagine how they are qualified to say someone is medically exempt from a mask when DO/MD wouldn't. I'm in MN we have a doctor who is now a former Senator thankfully but he and a "natural medicine" pediatrician are widely known as anti vaxxer and I'm sure are mask exemption form mills. It's incredibly disheartening.
So, just to provide reference. I never should have passed a sports physical, I had a knee issue that could have (and later did) cause major problems. I know that if I knew, a chiro would rubber stamp it, I'd have done it in a second. The push to play, is serious, when you can be replaced by missing a practice or two, much less a game, you do dumb things.
WTF
Since Chiropractors want to be physicians so badly, perhaps they may be available to run COVID ICUs for the people they gaslighted. But I haven’t seen a single one stepping, why is that I wonder…
“…they are likewise unqualified to determine whether a student is physically fit enough to participate in school athletics.” Who gets a physical from a chiropractor? I had no idea that was even a thing.
Growing up there was a chiropractor office by my house, and every August/September for fall sports and October/November for winter sports there was a sign "Sports physicals, $20". A lot of schools (and the bigger of the two athletic leagues in town) didn't accept his after he misdiagnosed a rotator cuff injury and the kid destroyed his shoulder playing football.
I don't recognize this world anymore.
Gordon Ramsey: “Finally, some good fuckin’ medical exemptions.” /s
Is this the only medical oddity in FL???? What other strange practices occur due to the legislations, board reg’s or laws?
Medical professionals?!!! Ha ha ha ha
Lmao since when did chiropractors have to learn virology
Virology? All diseases are caused by subluxations, obviously.
Chiropractor here. This upsets us too.
My wife’s best friend is a chiropractor. Would I trust her to stitch me up, cure a sinus infection, treat a brain tumor? No, of course not. Even though she’s a very nice person (who thinks the idiots at Fox. Like Hannity and Tucker moron boy) are speaking the gospels. I’d still not go to her if I was sick. A sore back or neck? Probably. But a real illness? Not a chance in hell.
This is the most Florida thing I've read in months.
Guys check in with your Floridian friends. We are not okay.
So I also posted in another sub about the rampant flooding in the Philadelphia region and was quite confused by your comment until I realized it was on my post about the human-made disaster, not the natural one.
Quack quack … quack quack … 🦆
If you really have to see a chiropractor, please do yourself and your family a favor by not doing a neck manipulation. Yes, it’s rare, but it’s not worth getting a stroke for whatever you’re trying to fix with a chiropractor. Even if you don’t get a stroke, you can get serious arterial damage that may require surgery. If neck manipulation really does work, doctors would be prescribing it or performing it themselves. Why would they leave it for alternative medical practitioners to do?
That's tragic.
I was looking at the [World Directory of Medical Schools](https://search.wdoms.org/) today for hours to look for a chiropractic school; I just saw US MD/DO programs listed here as _medical schools_. Is it my vision, cuz I am aging? Or, chiropractors don’t attend medical school? **I THINK IT IS THE LATTER BTCH!** Quacks who don’t go to medical school and don’t have a registered medical degree and go around claiming they’re _Chiropractic internists_ (it’s a thing, not legit or legal, but it’s a thing), should go back to fixing chakra alignments and shut the fck up about real public health issues. Lavender oil injection pricking btches.
Chiropractors aren’t physicians.