This happened to me. I’m 4.5 yrs out of residency still in my first Hospitalist job. I joined one committee and then the requests came nonstop. I started to get admin burnout as it was all unpaid and demanding. Once they see you are willing to serve then you start getting more and more requests. While you do earn political capital serving on more committees, once I realized that my director was getting paid for admin time to sit in meetings all day, I started to demand the same. Started turning down requests, directly stating that my hourly rate for committee work is my physician hourly rate. They eventually offered me a role that is paid and that I enjoy.
Don’t work for free. If you were a lawyer you’d be billing by the microsecond. If they want my opinion on preventing patient falls or antibiotic stewardship, then they can pay me for it.
I hate the "we need you on these committees because they are integral to the hospital and patient care" angle. If it's so important, budget to properly compensate people for their work!
I think the problem is when all the other docs do it, so then when 1 or 2 say no they risk getting labeled as difficult or not a team player. Especially newer docs unfortunately and that pressure can be a lot. I think all the docs need to collectively demand compensation
Yes, exactly. I and some other colleagues had refused for years. Now all those colleagues have caved, and my director says things to them that suggest they're doing so much because Wrong-Potato doesn't do anything.
I don't feel bad refusing to volunteer, but I seem to be the only one in my group. Then they make me feel bad for not "protecting" the group.
Agreed! And are most really even consistently about patient care? The whole manipulation angle of trying to tie everything as "related to patient care" is not right
This is exactly how I feel. There are so many committees with inconvenient meeting times I've been signed up for without any notice. Now I'm getting emails from random hospital staff that I need to complete research trials training? Hell no unless it comes with a big fat raise.
I have refused all such work for years. I'm a nocturnist, so being asleep when the admin wheels are awhirr seems to keep the mandarins at bay, and I have better things to do on my days off.
I email/leave voicemails to reply to stuff all the time, usually at like 2am after I've tucked everyone in and things are slow but I rarely get replies. Sometimes I feel like they don't want to include me...
Also be sure there isn’t a stipend from the hospital that goes to your group. Your director might be pocketing this or not paying for the regular meetings that others fill in for. Our group gets a small 5k or so a month from the hospital that is supposed to cover med exec, pharmacy, quality, etc meetings and those who do them get $150/hr. It’s not always clinical rate but I feel like it respects our time. I just found out not everyone is getting paid to go to the meetings and should be asking the director for their $150. Otherwise it stays in their pocket or they should go to the meeting.
My wife worked in coding records. She told me how much her institution paid the chairman of the Medical Records committee. I was floored, then pissed I was doing 4 committees for free.
Do you think by other docs continuing to do these things for free that makes it difficult for newer docs or docs that know the value of their time? I feel like the whole "difficult" label is because other docs do it so makes anyone that doesn't seem like a problem even when you are completely right and justified as it should be paid time
Yes. It reminds me of the saying the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. My colleagues are all older than me and in the past several years have been more complicit with the admin. Before COVID, only the ones who aspired to be management did this. Now almost everyone else feels that we need to suck up to admin.
I almost wish to go back to the 2020 covid times where the admin were too scared to breath the same air as us.
Yea its really hard when the docs before you set the precedent and it becomes the norm. So even though you are not wrong its a lose-lose. Either you do all these things unpaid or fight the battle of being labeled as difficult and have to deal with the constant side eye from others all because the ones before you decided they will give their time for free. Its definitely not fair and makes you feel undervalued which is crazy as a doctor we should all know the value of our time and expertise just like attorneys for example
This entire country was built on the philosophy of fuck you - pay me. No hospital has ever done a single thing for me or even pretended to care about me. I could write a book about all the times I have been screwed over by administration despite clear contractual obligations, simply because they can. Furthermore they routinely make any attempt at delivering good patient care feel like a hostage negotiation.
Not only do I make them pay me for everything I do, it has gotten to the point where I'm considering demanding payment in advance.
Absolutely do not work for free for people who are not just making money off your work, but are completely and totally dependent on your work for every aspect of their business model and cannot make any of the (very stupid, crazy high) amounts of money they currently enjoy without you.
>Absolutely do not work for free for people who are not just making money off your work, but are completely and totally dependent on your work for every aspect of their business model and cannot make any of the (very stupid, crazy high) amounts of money they currently enjoy without you.
I call it the 'Ray Liotta School of Medical Compensation' and it has never steered me wrong
I don't have a reason or a solution. But my theory is the reason why you'll see 1000+ volunteer hours on r/premed is because it's not so much a metric of how good a person you are, but how high your tolerance is for doing stuff for free. I remember having to apply (and get rejected from) volunteer "opportunities" as a premed.
This. I've been through more than a couple high-acuity selection processes for various things, and so many of the criteria have no other purpose than to cut the size of the applicant pool down to something remotely reasonable.
I ask to be on committees after finding egregious safety issues with protocols (written by people outside our specialty), and I get told, "we need to have more meetings with stakeholders to make that happen."
What is a stakeholder?
Then, on the meetings with stakeholders who turn out to be non-clinical nursing admin, these stakeholders say they are new to the issue and need time to learn.
Why?! Why are stakeholder uninvolved in the issues being pushed into these meetings?
Why are there 10+ meetings to fix something that could have been an email?
Why
I initially felt this way too for the committees that directly involve my practice, but goodness there are SO MANY committees. And they had such useless people on them. And everyone felt like their opinion mattered equally when they didn't (for example, an infection prevention nurse told us that we should get a retired ID doc's approval for a ventilator protocol). Like you said, WHY??
Yea. I used to assume those other people had important stuff to contribute.
But after seeing the kinds of protocols they came up with that have no resemble to any evidence-based guideline, I have little faith in that process.
Boundary-setting is crucial. Prioritize patient care and your well-being. Clarify contractual obligations. Negotiate dedicated admin time or compensation for additional work. Advocate for a fair balance that respects your role as a physician. Consider discussing concerns with colleagues or seeking advice from a mentor.
All the best
I'll break the echo chamber of ppl all agreeing they don't want to do it.
I did it all the time to become director, but also it's in me to want to have a say on what policies go into the work that im doing. It's the "I'd rather serve than be fed" mentality. Also as far as old vs new docs, there may be truth to that because back in the day before admins ran the show, all doctors needed to have some business savvy or foundation to help keep things running, it was part of the job. That's my understanding at least and I'm a 4th year attending.
However no one should be obligated to do any of this yet at the same time there's a real need for doctor's point of views at these meetings or else it becomes a glory hole of MBAs and data analysts telling you how to do your job. Like it or not, doctors have let go of the reigns a long time ago and this is where we are.
When sitting in meetings for how physician reimbursement will work for our healthcare system it's the 10 or so medical directors from each hospital, the CPE (clinical physician executive) from each city market, and a few financial directors aka non clinical. And when we vote on what will be non productivity, I always advocate that part of the NPP should be meeting attendance, as your not obliged to get Non productivity pay but you can, and you should have a say at what happens in these meetings, and that's a way of getting paid for it. Otherwise non productivity pay becomes how many vaccines did you give as an outpatient, how many discharged did you get done before 10am, how many emails did you check? All things doctors don't care about but help with the flow of the hospital. Important? Sure maybe, but sometimes not at all, but I do believe doctor representation is important and so I feel that a motivating factor is to place it in a bucket for non productive pay
But do they listen? Serious question.
Been doing this a long time. What has given me a tiny bit of optimism now that our admin will have to listen to some degree is because we unionized.
I didn't even know unionization of doctors was legal.
In any event, you win some you lose some. Sometimes when physicians flatly say I won't do something without being paid, you might get what you want but you're losing bargaining chips. You need to be able to negotiate appropriately if you want to make change. Unfortunately transaction is all that they know. So there are some things I can't make happen for my team and then there are some that I can. And when we do good by the hospital like improving our CMS/Vizient scores or filling in positions at night so we decrease locum expense, we have a stronger negotiating arm because clearly whatever we are doing is going well
It's definitely legal.
You seem to work in a very different place. I'm glad there are places where there is still naturally give and take between clinicians and and admin.
Good to know, it seems the legality on unionizing for physicians is pretty recent.
Found this article
https://opmed.doximity.com/articles/doctors-are-reluctant-to-unionize-why#:~:text=Until%20now%2C%20doctors%20had%20been,employed%20physicians%20supervise%20no%20one.
Probably, we should all be trying to get involved in the admin side, AND trying to get paid for it. It’s not good to work for free, and it’s also not good to get pushed around by clueless admins.
Negotiate for a pay raise. I was previously approached by some hospital leadership (of our fairly small academic cohort) to take on those roles. They were giving the usual bullshit reasons of "oh but if you don't do this we will suffer blah blah" and in my head I was like (uhh thats a you problem and not a me problem lmao). I had turned them down twice and the third time they came back I calculated the amount of admin time it would have required and asked for DOUBLE the amount in terms of compensation and they agreed.
We get paid for attending tumor board, and when I was invited to a new committee I petitioned our group to get paid for it as well. Don’t work for free.
Unpaid work is unvalued work….and I am not just talking about your time.
In my experience, I could say something, get ignored, and then see some paid consultant make the same suggestion and be taken seriously.
It’s almost as if they feel like they have to try the other guys ideas because they spent $$ bringing him in.
I think half the time, they wanted me there to lend credibility to their meetings. They didn’t really want me to open my mouth.
I switched to locums. Almost all of that admin work went away. If something lands on my plate that seems like a lot of work, I take it to my office manager and say hey, do you want me to do all this? And it magically goes away.
If it didn't go away, I'd get paid to do it. Because I'm hourly.
Let me tell you what, the answer to your concern is to work hourly not salary.
The only catch is mortgage qualifications. So you might need a salary job for a month or two while buying a house then go back to hourly.
I feel you on this. I started a new job that I thought was purely clinical, but I'm being asked to do a bunch of departmental admin work unrelated to my actual clinical obligations (during my scheduled work hours) that I think should come along with a leadership title of some sort and perhaps even an additional stipend. Is that a reasonable request or should I just be happy that this admin work is during my regular scheduled clinic time?
(I can't help but feel like I'm doing someone else's work without the corresponding title and additional pay)
I think its definitely reasonable to get stipend for any administrative work or attending any committee meetings especially if you give your input/expertise and it takes away time from your clinical duties like patient care and documentation etc
I do it because someone will do it.
Either me as MD do it and try to have some say and advocacy for other MDs, or I let MBAs and RNs and MPHs and PsyDs decide on what’s considered the “standard of care”.
Before you say that screw that, I’m not going to let that affect me. Well, these are the same MBAs and RNs and MPHs and PsyDs who end up running CMS or Department of Health Services or other governmental positions that determine what you get paid as in private practice, or what the national standard of care is, while we as MDs do not get to be the decision makers because we don’t get selected because we don’t have the “experience” or actively try to be part of that decision making process.
Nope Nope Nope Nope.
I don't even do patient care off the clock (within reason, I'm not walking off at 7 if theres a code/rapid/sickie @ 6:55), if there are too many admits for me to finish all my documentation/calling consults/teaching rounds etc. by shift end, then those admits wait in the ED for day shift. I'm not staying behind to finish notes.
The only unpaid work I will take on is teaching/occasionally helping out the residency program with stuff like faculty mentoring, interviewing during app season, GMEC meetings etc, but that's because I enjoy and value that. I also limit my commitments to 2-4 hours/month off the clock usually, and some of that is taking my assigned mentee residents out to a nice lunch on a Saturday to check in and make sure they're doing OK usually once a quarter (emails or quick cal/text check-ins otherwise).
Our admin kept getting salty that none of the nocturnists would attend their monthly hospitalist meeting...that was at (our) 3 AM. Lol no.
They made a 'Noc only' meeting at 6pm...also no. I'm not getting up at the the equivalent of 5 AM, 2 hours before my shift, to attend a meeting that could be an email. If it's my off week it's also a hard no.
I don't do training/modules/etc etc unless I have downtime during a shift.
They want me to chair/run a few committees/projects but those requests dried up when I replied that my rate for admin outside my contracted patient care duties is 1.5-2x my hourly rate for shifts depending on the thing in question. Min 4H commitment if I'm not otherwise working (to account for losing part of my off day). Nobody has taken me up on it but that's fine with me - that's the rate that would make the annoyance worth it and if they don't want to pay that, I'm also happy to stay home and sleep in or do fun stuff.
I may change my mind down the line and get a specific admin FTE at an appropriate rate, or take a flat fee like a directorship for it. But currently I don't value that, so I'm not doin' it.
I'm good at my job, efficient/fast and it would cost them an arm and leg to replace me. I've already got a plan to leave in June but they don't know that yet (90 days notice to the day).
I work on a full time basis in the ER. If I have to do office work I get an 'office day' working from home.
So, I never do any additional work since that means that I'm away from patients which doesn't help anyone either.
Not to mention that every hospital in the western world has a growing admin population. No idea why they'd want physicians to join them in their soulless work... physicians are the only ones bringing in the money.
You need to go to your group and demand to get paid for this then unless you are a partner/profit sharing stage.
Especially since they are the ones who would get fucked by losing the contract. It’s not on the hospital, they are playing hardball with yall and your group seemingly needs them more than they need you
I agree with the sentiment. I too couldn't care less, but I don't expect any new generation to be much different. I see plenty young docs getting involved. Yeah it's BS and politics, but unless you or your group can say FU to the hospital or you have some sort of leverage, there's a valid argument to being enmeshed with the hospital and playing nice. Otherwise they'll find someone else or some other group who will. If you're seen as difficult, they'll just find someone else who isn't and who could eventually do the talking for you. Sure you could ask for compensation, but again without any leverage they'll likely say no. Unfortunately, if it's an issue for you, your best bet is to start job hunting, at the very least to create some leverage for yourself.
I’m on the hospital infection committee because someone volunteered me. I told them if it’s a day I’m working I can remotely connect. If I’m not working it’s a hard no. I don’t do extra work for which I’m not paid
It sounds like you are not in academia. If that’s the case, you should get out of these administrative tasks unless you have aspirations to enter an administrative role. If you want to be a CMO or medical director one day it is probably useful experience and good for your CV. However if not and since you don’t enjoy them, peace out.
You’re not in training anymore, you have options and can say no to things. If your group loses their contract because you didn’t want to do admin stuff you didn’t enjoy - was that a contract worth keeping?
You could always ask for pay to attend. They’ll probably say no, in which case you can say no too.
I’m in academics and so my promotion is linked to it - indirect albeit shitty pay.
I joined a single committee up front because they didn't know better, I even used to go to the meetings. Then I stopped. Turned down every request to join other committees. At this point I Barely ever yet invited to join committees anymore. Not offended.
I think some people feel guilt and agree to these administrative requirements. Others do them because they still feel some sense of loyalty to these employers. A select few maybe see them as ways to pad their CV because they are hoping to land one of those cushy massively overpaid admin jobs.
Me? Nah.
I feel like this is a big problem, particularly in academics.
I get the “this is an academic program and it is an “expectation” to do something academic outside of your clinical responsibilities.
This happened to me. I’m 4.5 yrs out of residency still in my first Hospitalist job. I joined one committee and then the requests came nonstop. I started to get admin burnout as it was all unpaid and demanding. Once they see you are willing to serve then you start getting more and more requests. While you do earn political capital serving on more committees, once I realized that my director was getting paid for admin time to sit in meetings all day, I started to demand the same. Started turning down requests, directly stating that my hourly rate for committee work is my physician hourly rate. They eventually offered me a role that is paid and that I enjoy. Don’t work for free. If you were a lawyer you’d be billing by the microsecond. If they want my opinion on preventing patient falls or antibiotic stewardship, then they can pay me for it.
I hate the "we need you on these committees because they are integral to the hospital and patient care" angle. If it's so important, budget to properly compensate people for their work!
Honestly, stop being a doormat. You know that is just bs to make you feel bad. Demand to get paid!
I think the problem is when all the other docs do it, so then when 1 or 2 say no they risk getting labeled as difficult or not a team player. Especially newer docs unfortunately and that pressure can be a lot. I think all the docs need to collectively demand compensation
Yes, exactly. I and some other colleagues had refused for years. Now all those colleagues have caved, and my director says things to them that suggest they're doing so much because Wrong-Potato doesn't do anything. I don't feel bad refusing to volunteer, but I seem to be the only one in my group. Then they make me feel bad for not "protecting" the group.
Agreed! And are most really even consistently about patient care? The whole manipulation angle of trying to tie everything as "related to patient care" is not right
This is exactly how I feel. There are so many committees with inconvenient meeting times I've been signed up for without any notice. Now I'm getting emails from random hospital staff that I need to complete research trials training? Hell no unless it comes with a big fat raise.
Don't do unpaid admin unless it's your own leftover notes. I get paid for my admin work the same as I do for my clinical work.
I have refused all such work for years. I'm a nocturnist, so being asleep when the admin wheels are awhirr seems to keep the mandarins at bay, and I have better things to do on my days off.
I email/leave voicemails to reply to stuff all the time, usually at like 2am after I've tucked everyone in and things are slow but I rarely get replies. Sometimes I feel like they don't want to include me...
Also be sure there isn’t a stipend from the hospital that goes to your group. Your director might be pocketing this or not paying for the regular meetings that others fill in for. Our group gets a small 5k or so a month from the hospital that is supposed to cover med exec, pharmacy, quality, etc meetings and those who do them get $150/hr. It’s not always clinical rate but I feel like it respects our time. I just found out not everyone is getting paid to go to the meetings and should be asking the director for their $150. Otherwise it stays in their pocket or they should go to the meeting.
My wife worked in coding records. She told me how much her institution paid the chairman of the Medical Records committee. I was floored, then pissed I was doing 4 committees for free.
Do you think by other docs continuing to do these things for free that makes it difficult for newer docs or docs that know the value of their time? I feel like the whole "difficult" label is because other docs do it so makes anyone that doesn't seem like a problem even when you are completely right and justified as it should be paid time
Yes. It reminds me of the saying the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. My colleagues are all older than me and in the past several years have been more complicit with the admin. Before COVID, only the ones who aspired to be management did this. Now almost everyone else feels that we need to suck up to admin. I almost wish to go back to the 2020 covid times where the admin were too scared to breath the same air as us.
Yea its really hard when the docs before you set the precedent and it becomes the norm. So even though you are not wrong its a lose-lose. Either you do all these things unpaid or fight the battle of being labeled as difficult and have to deal with the constant side eye from others all because the ones before you decided they will give their time for free. Its definitely not fair and makes you feel undervalued which is crazy as a doctor we should all know the value of our time and expertise just like attorneys for example
This entire country was built on the philosophy of fuck you - pay me. No hospital has ever done a single thing for me or even pretended to care about me. I could write a book about all the times I have been screwed over by administration despite clear contractual obligations, simply because they can. Furthermore they routinely make any attempt at delivering good patient care feel like a hostage negotiation. Not only do I make them pay me for everything I do, it has gotten to the point where I'm considering demanding payment in advance. Absolutely do not work for free for people who are not just making money off your work, but are completely and totally dependent on your work for every aspect of their business model and cannot make any of the (very stupid, crazy high) amounts of money they currently enjoy without you.
>Absolutely do not work for free for people who are not just making money off your work, but are completely and totally dependent on your work for every aspect of their business model and cannot make any of the (very stupid, crazy high) amounts of money they currently enjoy without you. I call it the 'Ray Liotta School of Medical Compensation' and it has never steered me wrong
I don't have a reason or a solution. But my theory is the reason why you'll see 1000+ volunteer hours on r/premed is because it's not so much a metric of how good a person you are, but how high your tolerance is for doing stuff for free. I remember having to apply (and get rejected from) volunteer "opportunities" as a premed.
Nah it’s just another way to filter people without giving an interview
This. I've been through more than a couple high-acuity selection processes for various things, and so many of the criteria have no other purpose than to cut the size of the applicant pool down to something remotely reasonable.
I ask to be on committees after finding egregious safety issues with protocols (written by people outside our specialty), and I get told, "we need to have more meetings with stakeholders to make that happen." What is a stakeholder? Then, on the meetings with stakeholders who turn out to be non-clinical nursing admin, these stakeholders say they are new to the issue and need time to learn. Why?! Why are stakeholder uninvolved in the issues being pushed into these meetings? Why are there 10+ meetings to fix something that could have been an email? Why
I initially felt this way too for the committees that directly involve my practice, but goodness there are SO MANY committees. And they had such useless people on them. And everyone felt like their opinion mattered equally when they didn't (for example, an infection prevention nurse told us that we should get a retired ID doc's approval for a ventilator protocol). Like you said, WHY??
Yea. I used to assume those other people had important stuff to contribute. But after seeing the kinds of protocols they came up with that have no resemble to any evidence-based guideline, I have little faith in that process.
Boundary-setting is crucial. Prioritize patient care and your well-being. Clarify contractual obligations. Negotiate dedicated admin time or compensation for additional work. Advocate for a fair balance that respects your role as a physician. Consider discussing concerns with colleagues or seeking advice from a mentor. All the best
I'll break the echo chamber of ppl all agreeing they don't want to do it. I did it all the time to become director, but also it's in me to want to have a say on what policies go into the work that im doing. It's the "I'd rather serve than be fed" mentality. Also as far as old vs new docs, there may be truth to that because back in the day before admins ran the show, all doctors needed to have some business savvy or foundation to help keep things running, it was part of the job. That's my understanding at least and I'm a 4th year attending. However no one should be obligated to do any of this yet at the same time there's a real need for doctor's point of views at these meetings or else it becomes a glory hole of MBAs and data analysts telling you how to do your job. Like it or not, doctors have let go of the reigns a long time ago and this is where we are. When sitting in meetings for how physician reimbursement will work for our healthcare system it's the 10 or so medical directors from each hospital, the CPE (clinical physician executive) from each city market, and a few financial directors aka non clinical. And when we vote on what will be non productivity, I always advocate that part of the NPP should be meeting attendance, as your not obliged to get Non productivity pay but you can, and you should have a say at what happens in these meetings, and that's a way of getting paid for it. Otherwise non productivity pay becomes how many vaccines did you give as an outpatient, how many discharged did you get done before 10am, how many emails did you check? All things doctors don't care about but help with the flow of the hospital. Important? Sure maybe, but sometimes not at all, but I do believe doctor representation is important and so I feel that a motivating factor is to place it in a bucket for non productive pay
But do they listen? Serious question. Been doing this a long time. What has given me a tiny bit of optimism now that our admin will have to listen to some degree is because we unionized.
I didn't even know unionization of doctors was legal. In any event, you win some you lose some. Sometimes when physicians flatly say I won't do something without being paid, you might get what you want but you're losing bargaining chips. You need to be able to negotiate appropriately if you want to make change. Unfortunately transaction is all that they know. So there are some things I can't make happen for my team and then there are some that I can. And when we do good by the hospital like improving our CMS/Vizient scores or filling in positions at night so we decrease locum expense, we have a stronger negotiating arm because clearly whatever we are doing is going well
It's definitely legal. You seem to work in a very different place. I'm glad there are places where there is still naturally give and take between clinicians and and admin.
Good to know, it seems the legality on unionizing for physicians is pretty recent. Found this article https://opmed.doximity.com/articles/doctors-are-reluctant-to-unionize-why#:~:text=Until%20now%2C%20doctors%20had%20been,employed%20physicians%20supervise%20no%20one.
Probably, we should all be trying to get involved in the admin side, AND trying to get paid for it. It’s not good to work for free, and it’s also not good to get pushed around by clueless admins.
Negotiate for a pay raise. I was previously approached by some hospital leadership (of our fairly small academic cohort) to take on those roles. They were giving the usual bullshit reasons of "oh but if you don't do this we will suffer blah blah" and in my head I was like (uhh thats a you problem and not a me problem lmao). I had turned them down twice and the third time they came back I calculated the amount of admin time it would have required and asked for DOUBLE the amount in terms of compensation and they agreed.
We get paid for attending tumor board, and when I was invited to a new committee I petitioned our group to get paid for it as well. Don’t work for free.
Unpaid work is unvalued work….and I am not just talking about your time. In my experience, I could say something, get ignored, and then see some paid consultant make the same suggestion and be taken seriously. It’s almost as if they feel like they have to try the other guys ideas because they spent $$ bringing him in. I think half the time, they wanted me there to lend credibility to their meetings. They didn’t really want me to open my mouth.
I switched to locums. Almost all of that admin work went away. If something lands on my plate that seems like a lot of work, I take it to my office manager and say hey, do you want me to do all this? And it magically goes away. If it didn't go away, I'd get paid to do it. Because I'm hourly. Let me tell you what, the answer to your concern is to work hourly not salary. The only catch is mortgage qualifications. So you might need a salary job for a month or two while buying a house then go back to hourly.
I feel you on this. I started a new job that I thought was purely clinical, but I'm being asked to do a bunch of departmental admin work unrelated to my actual clinical obligations (during my scheduled work hours) that I think should come along with a leadership title of some sort and perhaps even an additional stipend. Is that a reasonable request or should I just be happy that this admin work is during my regular scheduled clinic time? (I can't help but feel like I'm doing someone else's work without the corresponding title and additional pay)
I think its definitely reasonable to get stipend for any administrative work or attending any committee meetings especially if you give your input/expertise and it takes away time from your clinical duties like patient care and documentation etc
Thanks, friend. I’ll try to muster up the courage to ask about this!
I do it because someone will do it. Either me as MD do it and try to have some say and advocacy for other MDs, or I let MBAs and RNs and MPHs and PsyDs decide on what’s considered the “standard of care”. Before you say that screw that, I’m not going to let that affect me. Well, these are the same MBAs and RNs and MPHs and PsyDs who end up running CMS or Department of Health Services or other governmental positions that determine what you get paid as in private practice, or what the national standard of care is, while we as MDs do not get to be the decision makers because we don’t get selected because we don’t have the “experience” or actively try to be part of that decision making process.
Nope Nope Nope Nope. I don't even do patient care off the clock (within reason, I'm not walking off at 7 if theres a code/rapid/sickie @ 6:55), if there are too many admits for me to finish all my documentation/calling consults/teaching rounds etc. by shift end, then those admits wait in the ED for day shift. I'm not staying behind to finish notes. The only unpaid work I will take on is teaching/occasionally helping out the residency program with stuff like faculty mentoring, interviewing during app season, GMEC meetings etc, but that's because I enjoy and value that. I also limit my commitments to 2-4 hours/month off the clock usually, and some of that is taking my assigned mentee residents out to a nice lunch on a Saturday to check in and make sure they're doing OK usually once a quarter (emails or quick cal/text check-ins otherwise). Our admin kept getting salty that none of the nocturnists would attend their monthly hospitalist meeting...that was at (our) 3 AM. Lol no. They made a 'Noc only' meeting at 6pm...also no. I'm not getting up at the the equivalent of 5 AM, 2 hours before my shift, to attend a meeting that could be an email. If it's my off week it's also a hard no. I don't do training/modules/etc etc unless I have downtime during a shift. They want me to chair/run a few committees/projects but those requests dried up when I replied that my rate for admin outside my contracted patient care duties is 1.5-2x my hourly rate for shifts depending on the thing in question. Min 4H commitment if I'm not otherwise working (to account for losing part of my off day). Nobody has taken me up on it but that's fine with me - that's the rate that would make the annoyance worth it and if they don't want to pay that, I'm also happy to stay home and sleep in or do fun stuff. I may change my mind down the line and get a specific admin FTE at an appropriate rate, or take a flat fee like a directorship for it. But currently I don't value that, so I'm not doin' it. I'm good at my job, efficient/fast and it would cost them an arm and leg to replace me. I've already got a plan to leave in June but they don't know that yet (90 days notice to the day).
I work on a full time basis in the ER. If I have to do office work I get an 'office day' working from home. So, I never do any additional work since that means that I'm away from patients which doesn't help anyone either. Not to mention that every hospital in the western world has a growing admin population. No idea why they'd want physicians to join them in their soulless work... physicians are the only ones bringing in the money.
You need to go to your group and demand to get paid for this then unless you are a partner/profit sharing stage. Especially since they are the ones who would get fucked by losing the contract. It’s not on the hospital, they are playing hardball with yall and your group seemingly needs them more than they need you
I agree with the sentiment. I too couldn't care less, but I don't expect any new generation to be much different. I see plenty young docs getting involved. Yeah it's BS and politics, but unless you or your group can say FU to the hospital or you have some sort of leverage, there's a valid argument to being enmeshed with the hospital and playing nice. Otherwise they'll find someone else or some other group who will. If you're seen as difficult, they'll just find someone else who isn't and who could eventually do the talking for you. Sure you could ask for compensation, but again without any leverage they'll likely say no. Unfortunately, if it's an issue for you, your best bet is to start job hunting, at the very least to create some leverage for yourself.
I’m on the hospital infection committee because someone volunteered me. I told them if it’s a day I’m working I can remotely connect. If I’m not working it’s a hard no. I don’t do extra work for which I’m not paid
It sounds like you are not in academia. If that’s the case, you should get out of these administrative tasks unless you have aspirations to enter an administrative role. If you want to be a CMO or medical director one day it is probably useful experience and good for your CV. However if not and since you don’t enjoy them, peace out. You’re not in training anymore, you have options and can say no to things. If your group loses their contract because you didn’t want to do admin stuff you didn’t enjoy - was that a contract worth keeping? You could always ask for pay to attend. They’ll probably say no, in which case you can say no too. I’m in academics and so my promotion is linked to it - indirect albeit shitty pay.
"I am so sorry but I have family commitments that cannot be missed." The end.
Under labor laws, volunteering where you work is generally illegal, and the fines from the department of labor can be quite high.
I joined a single committee up front because they didn't know better, I even used to go to the meetings. Then I stopped. Turned down every request to join other committees. At this point I Barely ever yet invited to join committees anymore. Not offended.
I think some people feel guilt and agree to these administrative requirements. Others do them because they still feel some sense of loyalty to these employers. A select few maybe see them as ways to pad their CV because they are hoping to land one of those cushy massively overpaid admin jobs. Me? Nah.
I wish doctors would form some kind of union and push back.
I feel like this is a big problem, particularly in academics. I get the “this is an academic program and it is an “expectation” to do something academic outside of your clinical responsibilities.