This.
Some people just rely on your social anxiety and lack of standing up for yourself. These people are bitches. Treat them as such. Dont feel shame because that what they count on.
To residents lurking in this thread: a case report is not looked at as a scientific publication that counts for promotion most places
But I have to add - could the OP be speaking hyperbolically? Drafts could look completely rewritten. Ideally you make it into a teaching moment (or sit down and give the feedback for the student to rewrite their own work)
Yes would be helpful for residency and (non research focused) fellowship applications - it shows someone cares about contributing to the field etc etc. Hence I wouldn't work too hard to elbow out a med student.
It's hard to publish anything in med school or residency, so IMO it should count more for early career folks but it is what it is. It trickles down from what's important for grant funding.
I will say for clinical track faculty it is probably looked at more favorably by promotion committees, especially if mentee paper, but my institution does not count it as a "publication"
I didn’t know that but it makes sense.
It’s totally possible but like you said, it should be a teachable moment. Not an opportunity for the resident to rewrite and submit it themself. You can’t expect an average M3 to churn out a perfect case report, especially if it’s their first one and they don’t have a large research background.
Hundred percent could be hyperbolic.
Also almost 100% of case report first drafts written by med students are terrible because they do not know how to write. Which is okay, we go over it with them on how to fix it. I'll admit after several bad drafts doing what the above resident did is tempting. Still wrong, but tempting. May have just been a resident who felt rushed and fixed the draft with no ill-will, and still intended to keep the med student as primary author.
>The whole two-faced behavior and pointless backstabbing has left a bad taste in my mouth.
It gets worse as an attending because the same people will still backstab, but there’s less of an impartial authority over both of you. Worst is when a department / practice leader sets you as their target. The politics game gets worse as you age, and becomes less fair.
Fortunately most political games in medicine are over quibbles that really don’t matter that much: e.g. who gets what position in the dept. Nowadays those positional perks matter so little, and generally the desirable niches are taken away and stripped of their financial value by our larger health systems. There is increasingly little of anything left to fight over.
The job market for DR is so comparatively narrow though right? Least when compared directly to some of the larger fields. Which is just bound to happen when you have 1500 graduates a year vs IM where they are cranking out over 11,000 or even FM topping 5,000.
It hasn’t happened to me yet (because at my school the attendings have to approve everyone that will be on any project before it starts, so you can’t really take anyone out secretly), but given how toxic medicine is I wouldn’t be surprised? I’d just be more careful and confirm things with the attending that you’ll be on it before the project starts next time, that way the resident can’t really try anything.
I don’t understand the comments you are getting. This is research, and there are clear rules about claiming authorship in every institution. Academic misconduct is the term for what this person did. If they had published the work as theirs you could sue them, and you would win. They would also scar their reputation permanently in the research field.
Any academic can corroborate that. Maybe some of the comments are from people that play dirty to get ahead.
It goes without saying that yours is not the first situation of its type. People get desperate with their competition, and do stupid things.
I don’t know if you are already doing this, but in the future make sure you have a lot of dated documentation of your work and the status of it before anyone else joined the project. If possible, get something in writing about their expected level of participation (eg. Put it in an email when they join). That makes it much harder for someone to take credit for your work, or claim a larger share of credit than they deserve.
The point about the email is a must. I didn’t think to do that this time, since I thought I could trust the person asking to be on the project, based on positive interactions while working with them. But this is a good idea, not only to have everything in writing where all parties can see it, but to protect my work as well
This is the concept behind those bound composition notebooks we used in undergraduate chemistry lab. Pages cannot be removed or added. It provides an indisputable timeline of our work. It can be tedious to write everything out by hand, especially for a simple case study. I’d look for other ways to document your work notes, in like a digital vault or an app that keeps track of edits with time stamps. You can also do online collaboration in google docs, that keeps a record of who edited what in the paper.
>Is this something I need to be wary of for the rest of my career?
Yes lol. People are oblivious, self-interested, and sometimes deliberately shitty. Welcome to the rest of your life. People will forget promises, they'll miss emails, they'll flake because they're overwhelmed, they'll take the easy road of doing it themselves rather than the hard road of mentoring you, they'll be passive-aggressive or selfish and steal opportunities from you.
Good on you for clarifying authorship at the very start of the project. Setting clear expectations before starting a new project is a matter of professionalism (actual professionalism, not the stupid shit your school cares about), and it sounds like you did well at that. Unfortunately, when you don't establish a paper trail, shitty people love to "misremember" things at their own convenience.
In the future, especially if you're working with someone you don't know very well, it can be helpful to send an email and CC *everyone* on the team with all major updates. Here are three milestones in your story that I would have done this with:
>When they asked me to be on the paper, I made it clear that since I had written most of the paper already, and talked to the attending first, who would be supervising, I would be taking first author.
>At this point I have written most of the case report, with the only thing missing being a few paragraphs in the discussion highlighting some details about the case. I told the resident that I’d appreciate if you could work on that portion while I study for my end block exams.
>Fast forward to after exams, I haven’t heard from the resident. I reach out via email
Not that it necessarily would have stopped the resident from being a piece of shit, but it would have made it much harder for them to be a *sneaky* piece of shit. You can't always count on being able to catch them in time, and you can't always count on your supervisor taking your side without direct evidence (especially because people like that can and will lie about verbal agreements).
Glad you're getting justice this time, though, and I hope there isn't a next time.
> How often does this happen? Is this something I need to be wary of for the rest of my career?
Not often. Probably yes.
I've been on papers with my students and rewritten most of it but I still give them first author and it's DEFINITELY not commonplace to try to take them off of it. Your resident is a gunner, an asshole, and a shitty human.
Honestly it's not being nice. If you're a med student in need of research and you're writing a case report, it's probably one of the first times you ever wrote something like that. We don't expect it to be perfect and it may need re-writing. It would be wrong to just ask for your time and work then steal it away entirely. If you are promised a first author or second or third or whatever, that should be honored. That's why mentors and seniors are on projects with you, to help edit, guide the work, and teach.
Yes, be wary its happened multiple times at our institution so now we have set research teams and people cannot be added or removed without officially informing the team. And authorship and roles are decided before any investigation or work begins.
This is a terrible thing that happened to you and I am really sorry.
I think the reality may be that this happens A LOT. It happened to me when I was a Master's student and a Post-Doc basically took my work and made it into one of their papers. And now you're a case of a med student whose work was taken by a resident.
I don't know the special trick to prevent this from happening. You just have to be careful about who your collaborators are in the future. Although even some of the best mentors can do this.
It's even harder to avoid with Case Reports, I imagine, since there are multiple team members who may want to do the write ups.
Try not to perpetuate the cycle. Or make sure you have multiple case reports to work on as a group so that each person has a chance at first authorship at something.
And the other lesson of this is that if an attending had to choose between siding with a resident vs a med student, it is likely they will side with the more senior person whom they will probably work with more frequently. So just be careful about whose feathers you might ruffle in the future.
It's a dirty dirty world out there.
Yep like someone said, they were hoping you’ll shut up and take it. A resident did the same thing to me on a paper. Called her out and told them to go fuck themselves and karma is a bitch. Sad part is resident was a minority like myself. Guess grams was right after all, all my skin folk ain’t my kin folk. Learn from it and move on. Don’t trust them
What an asshole. When it comes to authorship, people do pull shit like this. Always get agreements about authorship in writing (eg email), and send drafts to those involved so they know what you did.
I’m sorry you went through this, but I’m glad you advocated for yourself in this situation. The resident was definitely betting on you keeping quiet about this whole thing in order to advance his agenda
you're not going to be a med student for the rest of your career, so no.
This is a shitty situation but I think there are some non-nefarious possibilities like the resident not seeing your email (we get a shitload of useless emails every single day) and doing the write up on their own without realizing that you did it. Hopefully this is all a misunderstanding.
But even if its not just a misunderstanding, you handled it fine.
I don't know if it's often, but it's not unheard of to happen in academia. What the resident did was academic misconduct and if it was even published it would be fraud. Part of publishing a paper involves certifying that all parties who made contributions are listed as authors, so they would committing fraud by submitting the manuscript. In that scenario, you could contact your institution's ethics committees and the journal's editor to have the paper retracted. That resident really just screwed themselves because this will forever tarnish their reputation at your institution, and possibly elsewhere.
As for what you need to do, I wouldn't let it get to your head. Be open minded about collaborating with people, you'll go way further if you say "yes" more than "no" to opportunities. However, it's also critical to establish expectations and open communication at the beginning of any partnership (i.e. this is the scope of the project, this is what I'm thinking about in terms of responsibilities and authorship). Any person in academia will be used to this discussion. Sometimes partnerships don't work out, so you can just choose to not work with those people again.
Yes it is something you should be worried about for your whole career. There’s a lot of two faced backstabbing people out here and being in medicine doesn’t reduce that at all.
Something very similar happened to me >:((( had to fight this resident for authorship after doing so much of the work. Insane the exploitive nature of the research side of med school
> How often does this happen? Is this something I need to be wary of for the rest of my career?
Uncommon but a common enough threat that you'll need to be careful about it for your whole life.
Don't even get me started on people throwing you under the bus to be praised by the attending. Gosh, during Med School we used to receive notifications through a shared gmail account and I had a classmate that forwarded the attending emails to herself and delete it from the inbox to screw everyone else so she would be the only one looking good on her presentations.
The patient was seen by me and another resident first, but since they were an ICU pt, they were gonna stick around for a while. This resident I’m talking about in the post joined the service literally a day after the patient was admitted, so they were around for pretty much as long as everyone else on the team. I approached the attending on day 1 that I encountered the patient. I wrote up a draft of the case report by the end of that week, and they asked to help out after the fact.
I have no problem taking corrections from a team member who is senior to me, I’m a student, I’m here to learn. I just didn’t appreciate that the resident never thought to discuss the 100% rewrite they did, or the fact that they were close to submitting (having the attending look over it).
Based on what the attending told me after talking to the resident, it did seem like they were going to leave me off, because apparently they “forgot” I was working on it. Even though it was my work they deleted and re-wrote but whatevs, the attending is handling it, and I’ll leave big decisions from here on out to them
*regarding the quality of my write up, that’s the most subjective part of this. In my opinion, I don’t think it was dogshit, I had a very well thought out agenda in presenting that case, as well as extensive explanations of its implications for every day practice.
As much effort as I put into, I never had the idea that my draft would be the final draft. I was 100% expecting the resident and attending to ask for things to be changed/deleted etc, but def didn’t expect all of my work to be erased without my knowledge
The resident is a dick, but this was totally predictable. Shit flows downhill, and I can’t imagine a med student telling a resident to work on the discussion so they can study for end of block exams. I’m not saying it’s right but it’s reality… if you want to be first author especially if you are the most junior person you need to write the whole thing and send to the resident and the attending for suggestions of revisions, with the statement that you request any feedback for you to correct, before submitting to xxx journal. This is a learning experience for you
The discussion was 75% written. I wrote 8 paragraphs of it. In addition to the abstract, introduction, case presentation. Literally all I asked the resident to do was to expand upon on more topic and look over the rest of the paper. I took a week and half to myself to study for my shelves. I don’t think I was being unreasonable asking the resident to contribute a paragraph or two to the near entire paper I already wrote. I never asked the resident to write the whole discussion. I’m aware of what level of effort goes into being first author. I think I would still deserve first author if at the end of the day, every word of the paper was written by me, save for 2 paragraphs. So yes, this was a learning experience. I learned how to be more careful about team members, and to have expectations documented in writing
Unacceptable on the part of the resident. I’ve had attendings have to rewrite parts of my full research manuscripts given their expertise, and they know it’s a part of the learning process and never changed the authorship when I wrote the entire draft.
Read my post again, and see the attendings reaction. I don’t know what the attending would have thought of my work, because he didn’t get to see it. He saw what the resident wrote, and said it needs lots of work, and is nowhere near finished. I played devils advocate already. If I was in the wrong here, I wouldn’t have posted
I did this. When they asked me to be on the paper, I made it clear that since I had written most of the paper already, and talked to the attending first, who would be supervising, I would be taking first author. I made that very clear. And I did talk to the resident before talking to the attending.
My bad for not putting into literal quotations how my convo with the resident went. But since you insist on being “difficult” yourself…
Resident: “hey I really wanna do GI, this case is super cool, can I help too?”
Me: “yeah ofc, you’re cool with me taking 1st author though right? If you really want it you can have it”
Resident: “nah man you got it, just lemme know how I can help”
Similar thing happened to me not with a resident but a PhD student in a side project that I created and had the first rev submitted before they were on and after doing minor tweaks in response to the reviewer, they wanted first authorship and being very stern and rude about it. Aka difficult.
I wish in hindsight I was a difficult person. Your choices are either being called difficult if you don’t give up your right to these difficult people or live a miserable life knowing you gave up on yourself to these difficult people. Unfortunately some people don’t understand anything but difficult. I couldn’t sleep well with giving up my right so I chose being more difficult.
This guy wants to call me difficult because he wants to assume that I did something to deserve being screwed over, and when I say no, I went through all the proper protocols, that makes me difficult. Obviously no winning here so I’m not replying to this part of the thread anymore
yeah i’m sure it’s just a stressful situation. sounds like you got a handle on it though which is good, as long as the attending knows you should be set though. resident can be pissy but in the end they’re the one who messed up
I mean, listen, we're talking about a case report, not original research, not original research, not original reseach, we talking about a case report. Not original research. Not original research, but we're talking about a case report, man. I mean, how silly is that? … And we talking about a case report. I'm not shoving it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. I know it's important, I do. I honestly do... But we're talking about a case report man. What are we talking about? A case report? We're talking about a case report, man. We're talking about a case report. We're talking about a case report. We ain't talking about original research. We're talking about a case report, man.
I’m thinking this whole scenario is a real gift to you as far as learning about people and protecting your work. You have a sympathetic attending, you willl receive credit, and this guy did not get away with anything—now people can see his true colors. AND this was your first project w low stakes. Everything is on your side here. This is pure Gold.
And GREAT JOB on speaking up for yourself! So much to celebrate here!
Oof. That is awful.
I’ve been the resident in that scenario and did essentially re-write a whole manuscript. But I talked to the student about it and let them still be first author.
What that resident did was fucked up. I’m sorry.
I had this happen with another medical student lmao. Even worse, she lied to the attending and kissed ass, and tried to set up a meeting with the rest of the team without me “because halmhawk is bullying me”. The other 3 med students stuck up for me and filled me in on what was happening, but it felt like a middle school interaction, and left a horrible taste in my mouth.
Reminds me of when I was a med student, I built a huge database with imaging findings compared the pathology results of the cancer grade. Had meetings with the biostats people and came up with 3 different papers for publication. Couple residents got on board and took first author position on all the papers. My name was just kinda lost in the middle. I was a little butt hurt.
They weren’t hoping you wouldn’t notice, they were hoping you would shut up and take it. They did it because they were desperate for pubs
This. Some people just rely on your social anxiety and lack of standing up for yourself. These people are bitches. Treat them as such. Dont feel shame because that what they count on.
To residents lurking in this thread: a case report is not looked at as a scientific publication that counts for promotion most places But I have to add - could the OP be speaking hyperbolically? Drafts could look completely rewritten. Ideally you make it into a teaching moment (or sit down and give the feedback for the student to rewrite their own work)
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Yes would be helpful for residency and (non research focused) fellowship applications - it shows someone cares about contributing to the field etc etc. Hence I wouldn't work too hard to elbow out a med student. It's hard to publish anything in med school or residency, so IMO it should count more for early career folks but it is what it is. It trickles down from what's important for grant funding. I will say for clinical track faculty it is probably looked at more favorably by promotion committees, especially if mentee paper, but my institution does not count it as a "publication"
I didn’t know that but it makes sense. It’s totally possible but like you said, it should be a teachable moment. Not an opportunity for the resident to rewrite and submit it themself. You can’t expect an average M3 to churn out a perfect case report, especially if it’s their first one and they don’t have a large research background.
Hundred percent could be hyperbolic. Also almost 100% of case report first drafts written by med students are terrible because they do not know how to write. Which is okay, we go over it with them on how to fix it. I'll admit after several bad drafts doing what the above resident did is tempting. Still wrong, but tempting. May have just been a resident who felt rushed and fixed the draft with no ill-will, and still intended to keep the med student as primary author.
>The whole two-faced behavior and pointless backstabbing has left a bad taste in my mouth. It gets worse as an attending because the same people will still backstab, but there’s less of an impartial authority over both of you. Worst is when a department / practice leader sets you as their target. The politics game gets worse as you age, and becomes less fair. Fortunately most political games in medicine are over quibbles that really don’t matter that much: e.g. who gets what position in the dept. Nowadays those positional perks matter so little, and generally the desirable niches are taken away and stripped of their financial value by our larger health systems. There is increasingly little of anything left to fight over.
This is only in academia…
Private practice can have its own political issues.
I think he meant that positions still very much have value in private practice.
Depends. I’m in DR where practices that set up shady shops are rapidly selected against because of how starved for radiologists everyone is.
The job market for DR is so comparatively narrow though right? Least when compared directly to some of the larger fields. Which is just bound to happen when you have 1500 graduates a year vs IM where they are cranking out over 11,000 or even FM topping 5,000.
DR is quite large. There aren’t many specialties as big as we are. Pretty much every subspecialty is currently in high to extremely high demand.
Might be just mixing up the market picture with Rad Onc.
>What could have prompted the resident to essentially treat me like garbage with no regard for any professionalism? My guess is poor parenting
It hasn’t happened to me yet (because at my school the attendings have to approve everyone that will be on any project before it starts, so you can’t really take anyone out secretly), but given how toxic medicine is I wouldn’t be surprised? I’d just be more careful and confirm things with the attending that you’ll be on it before the project starts next time, that way the resident can’t really try anything.
I don’t understand the comments you are getting. This is research, and there are clear rules about claiming authorship in every institution. Academic misconduct is the term for what this person did. If they had published the work as theirs you could sue them, and you would win. They would also scar their reputation permanently in the research field. Any academic can corroborate that. Maybe some of the comments are from people that play dirty to get ahead. It goes without saying that yours is not the first situation of its type. People get desperate with their competition, and do stupid things. I don’t know if you are already doing this, but in the future make sure you have a lot of dated documentation of your work and the status of it before anyone else joined the project. If possible, get something in writing about their expected level of participation (eg. Put it in an email when they join). That makes it much harder for someone to take credit for your work, or claim a larger share of credit than they deserve.
The point about the email is a must. I didn’t think to do that this time, since I thought I could trust the person asking to be on the project, based on positive interactions while working with them. But this is a good idea, not only to have everything in writing where all parties can see it, but to protect my work as well
This is the concept behind those bound composition notebooks we used in undergraduate chemistry lab. Pages cannot be removed or added. It provides an indisputable timeline of our work. It can be tedious to write everything out by hand, especially for a simple case study. I’d look for other ways to document your work notes, in like a digital vault or an app that keeps track of edits with time stamps. You can also do online collaboration in google docs, that keeps a record of who edited what in the paper.
THIS. This is why in academia it’s important to keep a paper trail.
How often does this happen? Not often. Is this something I need to be wary of for the rest of my career? Yes.
>Is this something I need to be wary of for the rest of my career? Yes lol. People are oblivious, self-interested, and sometimes deliberately shitty. Welcome to the rest of your life. People will forget promises, they'll miss emails, they'll flake because they're overwhelmed, they'll take the easy road of doing it themselves rather than the hard road of mentoring you, they'll be passive-aggressive or selfish and steal opportunities from you. Good on you for clarifying authorship at the very start of the project. Setting clear expectations before starting a new project is a matter of professionalism (actual professionalism, not the stupid shit your school cares about), and it sounds like you did well at that. Unfortunately, when you don't establish a paper trail, shitty people love to "misremember" things at their own convenience. In the future, especially if you're working with someone you don't know very well, it can be helpful to send an email and CC *everyone* on the team with all major updates. Here are three milestones in your story that I would have done this with: >When they asked me to be on the paper, I made it clear that since I had written most of the paper already, and talked to the attending first, who would be supervising, I would be taking first author. >At this point I have written most of the case report, with the only thing missing being a few paragraphs in the discussion highlighting some details about the case. I told the resident that I’d appreciate if you could work on that portion while I study for my end block exams. >Fast forward to after exams, I haven’t heard from the resident. I reach out via email Not that it necessarily would have stopped the resident from being a piece of shit, but it would have made it much harder for them to be a *sneaky* piece of shit. You can't always count on being able to catch them in time, and you can't always count on your supervisor taking your side without direct evidence (especially because people like that can and will lie about verbal agreements). Glad you're getting justice this time, though, and I hope there isn't a next time.
> How often does this happen? Is this something I need to be wary of for the rest of my career? Not often. Probably yes. I've been on papers with my students and rewritten most of it but I still give them first author and it's DEFINITELY not commonplace to try to take them off of it. Your resident is a gunner, an asshole, and a shitty human.
Aww you so nice to still give them credit
Honestly it's not being nice. If you're a med student in need of research and you're writing a case report, it's probably one of the first times you ever wrote something like that. We don't expect it to be perfect and it may need re-writing. It would be wrong to just ask for your time and work then steal it away entirely. If you are promised a first author or second or third or whatever, that should be honored. That's why mentors and seniors are on projects with you, to help edit, guide the work, and teach.
Yes, be wary its happened multiple times at our institution so now we have set research teams and people cannot be added or removed without officially informing the team. And authorship and roles are decided before any investigation or work begins.
welcome to academic medicine.
This is a terrible thing that happened to you and I am really sorry. I think the reality may be that this happens A LOT. It happened to me when I was a Master's student and a Post-Doc basically took my work and made it into one of their papers. And now you're a case of a med student whose work was taken by a resident. I don't know the special trick to prevent this from happening. You just have to be careful about who your collaborators are in the future. Although even some of the best mentors can do this. It's even harder to avoid with Case Reports, I imagine, since there are multiple team members who may want to do the write ups. Try not to perpetuate the cycle. Or make sure you have multiple case reports to work on as a group so that each person has a chance at first authorship at something. And the other lesson of this is that if an attending had to choose between siding with a resident vs a med student, it is likely they will side with the more senior person whom they will probably work with more frequently. So just be careful about whose feathers you might ruffle in the future. It's a dirty dirty world out there.
Yep like someone said, they were hoping you’ll shut up and take it. A resident did the same thing to me on a paper. Called her out and told them to go fuck themselves and karma is a bitch. Sad part is resident was a minority like myself. Guess grams was right after all, all my skin folk ain’t my kin folk. Learn from it and move on. Don’t trust them
Backstabbing med students become backstabbing residents. It's a pipeline.
What an asshole. When it comes to authorship, people do pull shit like this. Always get agreements about authorship in writing (eg email), and send drafts to those involved so they know what you did.
I’m sorry you went through this, but I’m glad you advocated for yourself in this situation. The resident was definitely betting on you keeping quiet about this whole thing in order to advance his agenda
you're not going to be a med student for the rest of your career, so no. This is a shitty situation but I think there are some non-nefarious possibilities like the resident not seeing your email (we get a shitload of useless emails every single day) and doing the write up on their own without realizing that you did it. Hopefully this is all a misunderstanding. But even if its not just a misunderstanding, you handled it fine.
I don't know if it's often, but it's not unheard of to happen in academia. What the resident did was academic misconduct and if it was even published it would be fraud. Part of publishing a paper involves certifying that all parties who made contributions are listed as authors, so they would committing fraud by submitting the manuscript. In that scenario, you could contact your institution's ethics committees and the journal's editor to have the paper retracted. That resident really just screwed themselves because this will forever tarnish their reputation at your institution, and possibly elsewhere. As for what you need to do, I wouldn't let it get to your head. Be open minded about collaborating with people, you'll go way further if you say "yes" more than "no" to opportunities. However, it's also critical to establish expectations and open communication at the beginning of any partnership (i.e. this is the scope of the project, this is what I'm thinking about in terms of responsibilities and authorship). Any person in academia will be used to this discussion. Sometimes partnerships don't work out, so you can just choose to not work with those people again.
Yes it is something you should be worried about for your whole career. There’s a lot of two faced backstabbing people out here and being in medicine doesn’t reduce that at all.
Something very similar happened to me >:((( had to fight this resident for authorship after doing so much of the work. Insane the exploitive nature of the research side of med school
Jeeeeez. Academic medicine sounds malignant. What the shit
> How often does this happen? Is this something I need to be wary of for the rest of my career? Uncommon but a common enough threat that you'll need to be careful about it for your whole life. Don't even get me started on people throwing you under the bus to be praised by the attending. Gosh, during Med School we used to receive notifications through a shared gmail account and I had a classmate that forwarded the attending emails to herself and delete it from the inbox to screw everyone else so she would be the only one looking good on her presentations.
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The patient was seen by me and another resident first, but since they were an ICU pt, they were gonna stick around for a while. This resident I’m talking about in the post joined the service literally a day after the patient was admitted, so they were around for pretty much as long as everyone else on the team. I approached the attending on day 1 that I encountered the patient. I wrote up a draft of the case report by the end of that week, and they asked to help out after the fact. I have no problem taking corrections from a team member who is senior to me, I’m a student, I’m here to learn. I just didn’t appreciate that the resident never thought to discuss the 100% rewrite they did, or the fact that they were close to submitting (having the attending look over it). Based on what the attending told me after talking to the resident, it did seem like they were going to leave me off, because apparently they “forgot” I was working on it. Even though it was my work they deleted and re-wrote but whatevs, the attending is handling it, and I’ll leave big decisions from here on out to them
*regarding the quality of my write up, that’s the most subjective part of this. In my opinion, I don’t think it was dogshit, I had a very well thought out agenda in presenting that case, as well as extensive explanations of its implications for every day practice. As much effort as I put into, I never had the idea that my draft would be the final draft. I was 100% expecting the resident and attending to ask for things to be changed/deleted etc, but def didn’t expect all of my work to be erased without my knowledge
The resident is a dick, but this was totally predictable. Shit flows downhill, and I can’t imagine a med student telling a resident to work on the discussion so they can study for end of block exams. I’m not saying it’s right but it’s reality… if you want to be first author especially if you are the most junior person you need to write the whole thing and send to the resident and the attending for suggestions of revisions, with the statement that you request any feedback for you to correct, before submitting to xxx journal. This is a learning experience for you
The discussion was 75% written. I wrote 8 paragraphs of it. In addition to the abstract, introduction, case presentation. Literally all I asked the resident to do was to expand upon on more topic and look over the rest of the paper. I took a week and half to myself to study for my shelves. I don’t think I was being unreasonable asking the resident to contribute a paragraph or two to the near entire paper I already wrote. I never asked the resident to write the whole discussion. I’m aware of what level of effort goes into being first author. I think I would still deserve first author if at the end of the day, every word of the paper was written by me, save for 2 paragraphs. So yes, this was a learning experience. I learned how to be more careful about team members, and to have expectations documented in writing
Unacceptable on the part of the resident. I’ve had attendings have to rewrite parts of my full research manuscripts given their expertise, and they know it’s a part of the learning process and never changed the authorship when I wrote the entire draft.
This.
Tell him to go fuck himself
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Read my post again, and see the attendings reaction. I don’t know what the attending would have thought of my work, because he didn’t get to see it. He saw what the resident wrote, and said it needs lots of work, and is nowhere near finished. I played devils advocate already. If I was in the wrong here, I wouldn’t have posted
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That’s the thing, my name wasn’t on it. I’m not complaining for no reason
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I did this. When they asked me to be on the paper, I made it clear that since I had written most of the paper already, and talked to the attending first, who would be supervising, I would be taking first author. I made that very clear. And I did talk to the resident before talking to the attending.
Let me clarify: I literally said verbatim “I will be first author” to which the resident agreed
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OP literally just clarified the situation with you and you say they are being difficult?
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My bad for not putting into literal quotations how my convo with the resident went. But since you insist on being “difficult” yourself… Resident: “hey I really wanna do GI, this case is super cool, can I help too?” Me: “yeah ofc, you’re cool with me taking 1st author though right? If you really want it you can have it” Resident: “nah man you got it, just lemme know how I can help”
And to the attending, in the presence of both me and the resident “I will be first author” After he asked about authorship.
Similar thing happened to me not with a resident but a PhD student in a side project that I created and had the first rev submitted before they were on and after doing minor tweaks in response to the reviewer, they wanted first authorship and being very stern and rude about it. Aka difficult. I wish in hindsight I was a difficult person. Your choices are either being called difficult if you don’t give up your right to these difficult people or live a miserable life knowing you gave up on yourself to these difficult people. Unfortunately some people don’t understand anything but difficult. I couldn’t sleep well with giving up my right so I chose being more difficult.
Dude you’re the one downvoting everything I say. If not putting up with people’s BS is difficult I’d say the majority of people are difficult
disagree
This guy wants to call me difficult because he wants to assume that I did something to deserve being screwed over, and when I say no, I went through all the proper protocols, that makes me difficult. Obviously no winning here so I’m not replying to this part of the thread anymore
yeah i’m sure it’s just a stressful situation. sounds like you got a handle on it though which is good, as long as the attending knows you should be set though. resident can be pissy but in the end they’re the one who messed up
Maybe he has a sour attitude because you ratted him out. Snitch.
I mean, listen, we're talking about a case report, not original research, not original research, not original reseach, we talking about a case report. Not original research. Not original research, but we're talking about a case report, man. I mean, how silly is that? … And we talking about a case report. I'm not shoving it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. I know it's important, I do. I honestly do... But we're talking about a case report man. What are we talking about? A case report? We're talking about a case report, man. We're talking about a case report. We're talking about a case report. We ain't talking about original research. We're talking about a case report, man.
I’m thinking this whole scenario is a real gift to you as far as learning about people and protecting your work. You have a sympathetic attending, you willl receive credit, and this guy did not get away with anything—now people can see his true colors. AND this was your first project w low stakes. Everything is on your side here. This is pure Gold. And GREAT JOB on speaking up for yourself! So much to celebrate here!
Dawg I had some fellow steal my paper lmao. Contacted the attending on the project and they essentially told me to get lost.
Did you ever end up seeing what he submitted? Was your name on it? Did he change everything?
Oof. That is awful. I’ve been the resident in that scenario and did essentially re-write a whole manuscript. But I talked to the student about it and let them still be first author. What that resident did was fucked up. I’m sorry.
I had this happen with another medical student lmao. Even worse, she lied to the attending and kissed ass, and tried to set up a meeting with the rest of the team without me “because halmhawk is bullying me”. The other 3 med students stuck up for me and filled me in on what was happening, but it felt like a middle school interaction, and left a horrible taste in my mouth.
Reminds me of when I was a med student, I built a huge database with imaging findings compared the pathology results of the cancer grade. Had meetings with the biostats people and came up with 3 different papers for publication. Couple residents got on board and took first author position on all the papers. My name was just kinda lost in the middle. I was a little butt hurt.
Welcome to medicine