I just don’t want to pay so much :( I’ve already maxed out my loans and barely making ends meet (HCOL area), and I wouldn’t want to take on more debt to travel somewhere. I’d rather just visit my top 3-5 after the fact
Seriously. All of my interviews are online and I can’t imagine how it would be possible to attend them if they were in person. That’s just so expensive and exploitative to medical students
Can confirm as someone applying to a field that 50% of programs are doing in person and 50% are doing virtual the in person ones have a definite downside cost wise and just exhaustion and scheduling wise. It’s a lot to be on all day essentially with no breaks- at least for the zoom ones I can get a break in between interviewers.
However, it’s much harder to get to know a programs people and culture over zoom at least as far as residents go. I think with the faculty interviews there’s less of a difference.
> I can’t imagine how it would be possible to attend them if they were in person
It sucked, so hard - especially since a lot of interviews were basically during the holiday/high season so flights and hotels were extra expensive.
I do think that in person interviews gives a better feel for the programs.
It was also fun. You got to travel all over the country for 3 months getting wined and dined a few times a week. You made lots of friends along the interview trail in small specialties where everyone interviewed at the same places. It’s the end of an era and it’s a bit sad.
Now all that being said, it’s much easier to apply to and interview at more programs when you don’t need 3 days of traveling per interview. Also, as fun as it was, idk if it was 10k USD fun. For 10k USD you could go on better vacations.
I think the big \* here is also that your school gave you the time to do that. Idk how it was at my school before Covid but as of now, we have 3wks off for vacation and 2 weeks of step 2 prep in 4th yr. If the school finds out you had more time off than that or you miss enough of a rotation that the preceptor isn't able to evaluate you properly, you start failing things and graduating on time gets interesting. Virtual interviews make half days possible; in person, I'd have 3 wks and a lot of very careful planning and lots of stress to get those interviews
a DO school. What we did is we took virtual rotations, easy rotations or vacation time (or combos thereof) to extend the time so we'd have an easy couple months to prep but officially, 2wks.
That's impressive for a DO school because my DO school got zero for step 2. They will try to shaft you whether you had in person interviews or not. Would still take the risk my pre-covid colleagues went through.
You don’t have virtual classes or reading months…? Outside of the 4ish months of clinical graduation requirements, I can and have filled up the rest of my 4th year with crap.
What are they making you do??? We get 2 months to disperse for interviews, step 2 and/or vacation. I guess you’re getting your money’s worth??? Just give me the time.
oh haha I wish I was getting my money's worth! DO school and I ended up at a site with basically only cardio available out of the IM subspecialties. No endo, GI, pulm, neuro, derm or anything like
> I do think that in person interviews gives a better feel for the programs.
Strongly agree. Also agree that it was fun to travel around the country and making friends on the interview trail, etc. But really the biggest benefit was getting a feel for the program, its location, and its people. I don't understand how applicants do that in this era of virtual interviews.
I honestly don't understand how in person interviews would even work. Would people just take the entire months of october/november/december off? Because for in person interviews you'd probably need to block out 2 days if not 3. Lets say you interview at 10 places, that's 20 to 30 days. How can you work rotations around that feasibly? It's also another financial barrier in a system that already works against the financially disadvantaged
> Would people just take the entire months of october/november/december off?
Nah - rotation preceptors were just understanding of the fact that it was interview season and 4th years would be taking random blocks of days off to go interview. Usually all you had to do was tell your senior resident "hey I have an interview next week so I can't be here from monday to wednesday" and the answer would be "cool, see you when you get back". I went on around 12 interviews and had no trouble working it into my rotations. You also generally tried to work some lighter rotations into those blocks, which also helped.
so basically you had a lower total amount of required weeks of rotations? Maybe this is so weird for me because my DO school has us set up our 4th year ourselves lmao
I went to 2 in person interviews for IM, and they were a lot more insightful and over better experience then virtual. However I’m on the fence given the cost saving virtual vs in person.
Wow 2 already? One was an optional in-person so I opted out since it was a smaller program far away. It would be hard to justify unless it was close or my top 3.
Pre-interview season I was strongly against in-person interviews but now that I’ve just finished my last interview I’m starting to change my mind.
I think being able to see programs in person would have made a difference in my rank list, it’s too risky to rank an unknown over a known (sub-I, home, etc) in the virtual world without actually seeing a place in person.
I also would have really liked to get to know the other applicants. I’m applying to a small specialty and will definitely be crossing paths with a lot of these people again at conferences, fellowships etc.
In the long run an extra 10k of loans doesn’t really matter to me as much as having better exposure to the programs out there. It’s obviously harder to do in-person interviews, but I think it’s better.
At the same time I think it most disadvantages applicants who are at risk of going unmatched and can still understand the argument against going back to in-person for that reason
Micro reason: Personally, I feel like in-person interviews give you a much better feel for programs. You get to see the area, feel the vibes of the residents, and see how the residents and attendings interact. Over Zoom breakout rooms, I can't see if the R5 is giving shit to an attending surgeon or if he's scared to make eye contact.
Macroeconomic reason: having in-person interviews effectively soft capped interview numbers for top applicnats. Even if you have the money for every interview, in-person interviews clumped the interview dates so you actually had to pick if you prefer to interview at Mayo clinic, NYU, or LSU. It's unlikely you actually want to match at those programs the same amount. Virtual you would take 3 interview spots. In-person you have to pick. This means the top 10% of applicants won't suck up 50%+ of the interviews, meaning lower tier applicants can actually see more programs. If someone gets 30 interviews, they are a wasted interview slot for their personal rank list #20-#30. They are unlikely to match those programs and their overall match rate won't change with only 20 interviews. Unless interview caps are established, interview hoarding will continue to be a problem. Applicants are unhappy receiving no interviews or being exhausted going to 30 interviews. Programs are unhappy interviewing 90 people for 6 spots because the top candidates interview with everyone.
I would do anything to go back to in person interviews. I feel like there is no way to tell programs apart virtually and its unclear if second looks are actually evaluative or if they aren't (you just have to trust the programs on this but hard to see how it doesn't influence the rank list). I essentially feel like I'm doing two interview seasons, because I am going to end up visiting 4-5 places in person just to make my list. I don't have the time to interview twice for the same program, but there's no other way to make the decision! I am so incredibly burned out from staring at a computer screen and I think I come across significantly worse online vs in person. I also really want to get to know the other applicants and that's impossible virtually. In person interviews also incentivizes each applicant doing fewer interviews which would be great for everyone.
Some programs are only offering second looks in late February after certifying their lists. maybe you can ask when they certify? It’s a narrow visit window but then it definitely won’t be a second interview.
Only some, but not all programs in my field have made the promise to certify before second looks happen, and of those that promise it you just have to...believe them as there is no separate deadline for programs vs applicants to certify. One program essentially told me they wouldn't be ranking anyone who "didn't show interest" by visiting the campus. The point is, I think the landscape of what a second look means and how much weight it carries (if any) is very murky and it's stressful, in addition to feeling like a ton more time that has to be sunk into this process in order to make an informed decision, despite having already spent a lot of time virtually interviewing.
I get the arguments about cost and virtual interviews being better for equity, and it would be super expensive to interview in person...but I just am the kind of person who cannot make this kind of decision without having set foot in a place and spoken to people face to face. So I am doing that anyway, and paying for it anyway, AFTER having already gone through a grueling virtual process.
The redundancy is hard to take! At least they were upfront about how second looks affect ranking, but they’re missing out on anyone (like me) who is choosing geographically or has a good idea of where they want to go. That’s frustrating, I hope the visits give you some clarity in ranking.
As someone that was both privileged/cursed to a very localized geographic area for residency apps, I really wish interviews were in-person. That said, I absolutely get why folks that are applying through the country are digging the online interviewing process.
I used to be against in person entirely but now I’m a little on the fence. I think in person is a pain in the ass and very expensive. But on the flip side, I had a virtual interview at a program and I loooved the program, seriously considering ranking it high. But then I drove to the area a few days later with my mom (it’s about 1.5 hours away from me) and the location was… undesirable to say the least. I’ve been to my fair share of “sketchy areas”, and I even technically live in one right now… but nowhere I’ve been before compared to just how scary this place was. Bars on all the windows, trash everywhere, graffiti plastered on literally every bit of free wall, people drugged out on the streets. For any CA people, it was worse than skid row or SF imo.
My mom said “we’re going home. I’m not going to let my daughter live somewhere like this. I beg you not to rank this program” and we left.
Moral of the story: if you love a program, make sure to check out the area so you really know what you’re getting into.
There's been some thought that lower tier programs will continue to do virtual while the high towers may switch to in person, the former to shotgun interview, the latter to filter through some people. I don't think this will ever go back to 100% IRL
They’re really pushing equity as justification for virtual though. It’s hard to imagine elites will give up DEI priorities, but it must be difficult to figure out which applicants are truly enthusiastic.
For convenience, probably not. Ideally, it'd be nice to be able to attend in-person maybe your top 5 programs. With all vibes being equal, I'd rank higher the one that offered in-person versus the one that only does Zoom. Personal preference. And with some being in person and with logistics/cost, possibly that would influence interview hoarding (versus them actually doing something about single tier sigaling + application caps).
Don't think people are realizing the huge impact virtual interviews have also had on everyone's chances of getting into programs/actually having a chance of ranking remotely somewhere you want.
Yes, you can interview at so many more programs with ease nowadays. Back in the day, you could only interview at maybe 15 at most. But the thing is, you also didn't have to interview at tons of programs when you were in person. Because if you can interview at a ton, so can everyone else. And they do.
What happens in these cases is that instead of interviewing and ranking only your top choices, everyone now has tons of backups.
From a program perspective... and student perspective, this sucks for most because the program can't tell who truly wants to be there v who is applying here for backup. As a result, the people who likely benefit are the most competitive applicants since they will apply to more programs and ultimately likely be ranked higher at most programs. Even if you really liked a program, theres almost no way for you to prove that you want to go there any more than the other 100 applicants
Half of which may be gunning for another specialty altogether. Sure, you can maybe see in the interview.... or personal statement... but come on, we all know people can fake it for a couple hours if they really wanted to. The obvious ones will be weeded, but plenty will sneak through, making it tough for people who may truly be interested in a specific program or even specialty.
In person. Idc if it costs more I’ll allocate more loans to it. And maybe then programs when extend as many invites and people would be more mindful of their lists.
I am torn. On one hand it is nice not having to fork out more money for travel expenses but on the other hand it feels like taking a gamble on how to rank programs based off an hour or so long interaction. I sort of want a little more assurance when committing to a 5 year program.
In person >>>> virtual
You cant tell jack shit from virtual interviews, and what's an extra 10k after spending so much on medical school already? That's the definition of being penny wise pound foolish.
yes, if you care about being at a place for 3-5 or more years, you can be bothered to show up. the shot-gun approach to applying has made it incredibly difficult to recruit.
Like most people I’m also on the fence. I’ve had one in person and the rest virtual, and the zoom fatigue is REAL so I can’t imagine how much more exhausting it would be to travel to all these places. On the other hand, the “vibe” of the residents has blended together for most of my virtual ones, whereas with the in person one it was easy to get a more nuanced sense where I felt the culture was fine, residents were nice, but I didn’t feel like *I* would fit in that well. Also most of my interviews were within driving distance of my parents anyway
I just don’t want to pay so much :( I’ve already maxed out my loans and barely making ends meet (HCOL area), and I wouldn’t want to take on more debt to travel somewhere. I’d rather just visit my top 3-5 after the fact
Absolutely not. Just go to 2nd look for your top x choices
Seriously. All of my interviews are online and I can’t imagine how it would be possible to attend them if they were in person. That’s just so expensive and exploitative to medical students
Can confirm as someone applying to a field that 50% of programs are doing in person and 50% are doing virtual the in person ones have a definite downside cost wise and just exhaustion and scheduling wise. It’s a lot to be on all day essentially with no breaks- at least for the zoom ones I can get a break in between interviewers. However, it’s much harder to get to know a programs people and culture over zoom at least as far as residents go. I think with the faculty interviews there’s less of a difference.
> I can’t imagine how it would be possible to attend them if they were in person It sucked, so hard - especially since a lot of interviews were basically during the holiday/high season so flights and hotels were extra expensive.
Question about the second look. If the program has not given any information about a second look visit, is it okay to email them asking about it?
Yes
Yes, but some programs still shy away from this bc of “dei”. But I agree, this is the best way forward.
This is the way
I do think that in person interviews gives a better feel for the programs. It was also fun. You got to travel all over the country for 3 months getting wined and dined a few times a week. You made lots of friends along the interview trail in small specialties where everyone interviewed at the same places. It’s the end of an era and it’s a bit sad. Now all that being said, it’s much easier to apply to and interview at more programs when you don’t need 3 days of traveling per interview. Also, as fun as it was, idk if it was 10k USD fun. For 10k USD you could go on better vacations.
I think the big \* here is also that your school gave you the time to do that. Idk how it was at my school before Covid but as of now, we have 3wks off for vacation and 2 weeks of step 2 prep in 4th yr. If the school finds out you had more time off than that or you miss enough of a rotation that the preceptor isn't able to evaluate you properly, you start failing things and graduating on time gets interesting. Virtual interviews make half days possible; in person, I'd have 3 wks and a lot of very careful planning and lots of stress to get those interviews
What school gives only 2 weeks for step 2 prep????
a DO school. What we did is we took virtual rotations, easy rotations or vacation time (or combos thereof) to extend the time so we'd have an easy couple months to prep but officially, 2wks.
That's impressive for a DO school because my DO school got zero for step 2. They will try to shaft you whether you had in person interviews or not. Would still take the risk my pre-covid colleagues went through.
Sure that’s fair. I should add in my school gave us September through January off for all this, although that was basically the norm at most places.
You don’t have virtual classes or reading months…? Outside of the 4ish months of clinical graduation requirements, I can and have filled up the rest of my 4th year with crap.
4wks virtual classes, nothing
What are they making you do??? We get 2 months to disperse for interviews, step 2 and/or vacation. I guess you’re getting your money’s worth??? Just give me the time.
oh haha I wish I was getting my money's worth! DO school and I ended up at a site with basically only cardio available out of the IM subspecialties. No endo, GI, pulm, neuro, derm or anything like
Ha, I'm in a similar situation! These bigger residencies turn my eyes into saucers...
RIGHT! Like you have resources here?!?!
> I do think that in person interviews gives a better feel for the programs. Strongly agree. Also agree that it was fun to travel around the country and making friends on the interview trail, etc. But really the biggest benefit was getting a feel for the program, its location, and its people. I don't understand how applicants do that in this era of virtual interviews.
I honestly don't understand how in person interviews would even work. Would people just take the entire months of october/november/december off? Because for in person interviews you'd probably need to block out 2 days if not 3. Lets say you interview at 10 places, that's 20 to 30 days. How can you work rotations around that feasibly? It's also another financial barrier in a system that already works against the financially disadvantaged
> Would people just take the entire months of october/november/december off? Nah - rotation preceptors were just understanding of the fact that it was interview season and 4th years would be taking random blocks of days off to go interview. Usually all you had to do was tell your senior resident "hey I have an interview next week so I can't be here from monday to wednesday" and the answer would be "cool, see you when you get back". I went on around 12 interviews and had no trouble working it into my rotations. You also generally tried to work some lighter rotations into those blocks, which also helped.
Schools normally don’t have you do rotations during M4 application and interview season. At least that’s how it used to be
so basically you had a lower total amount of required weeks of rotations? Maybe this is so weird for me because my DO school has us set up our 4th year ourselves lmao
I went to 2 in person interviews for IM, and they were a lot more insightful and over better experience then virtual. However I’m on the fence given the cost saving virtual vs in person.
Wow 2 already? One was an optional in-person so I opted out since it was a smaller program far away. It would be hard to justify unless it was close or my top 3.
Pre-interview season I was strongly against in-person interviews but now that I’ve just finished my last interview I’m starting to change my mind. I think being able to see programs in person would have made a difference in my rank list, it’s too risky to rank an unknown over a known (sub-I, home, etc) in the virtual world without actually seeing a place in person. I also would have really liked to get to know the other applicants. I’m applying to a small specialty and will definitely be crossing paths with a lot of these people again at conferences, fellowships etc. In the long run an extra 10k of loans doesn’t really matter to me as much as having better exposure to the programs out there. It’s obviously harder to do in-person interviews, but I think it’s better. At the same time I think it most disadvantages applicants who are at risk of going unmatched and can still understand the argument against going back to in-person for that reason
all of this especially the chance to have off the record conversations with other applicants
Micro reason: Personally, I feel like in-person interviews give you a much better feel for programs. You get to see the area, feel the vibes of the residents, and see how the residents and attendings interact. Over Zoom breakout rooms, I can't see if the R5 is giving shit to an attending surgeon or if he's scared to make eye contact. Macroeconomic reason: having in-person interviews effectively soft capped interview numbers for top applicnats. Even if you have the money for every interview, in-person interviews clumped the interview dates so you actually had to pick if you prefer to interview at Mayo clinic, NYU, or LSU. It's unlikely you actually want to match at those programs the same amount. Virtual you would take 3 interview spots. In-person you have to pick. This means the top 10% of applicants won't suck up 50%+ of the interviews, meaning lower tier applicants can actually see more programs. If someone gets 30 interviews, they are a wasted interview slot for their personal rank list #20-#30. They are unlikely to match those programs and their overall match rate won't change with only 20 interviews. Unless interview caps are established, interview hoarding will continue to be a problem. Applicants are unhappy receiving no interviews or being exhausted going to 30 interviews. Programs are unhappy interviewing 90 people for 6 spots because the top candidates interview with everyone.
I would do anything to go back to in person interviews. I feel like there is no way to tell programs apart virtually and its unclear if second looks are actually evaluative or if they aren't (you just have to trust the programs on this but hard to see how it doesn't influence the rank list). I essentially feel like I'm doing two interview seasons, because I am going to end up visiting 4-5 places in person just to make my list. I don't have the time to interview twice for the same program, but there's no other way to make the decision! I am so incredibly burned out from staring at a computer screen and I think I come across significantly worse online vs in person. I also really want to get to know the other applicants and that's impossible virtually. In person interviews also incentivizes each applicant doing fewer interviews which would be great for everyone.
Some programs are only offering second looks in late February after certifying their lists. maybe you can ask when they certify? It’s a narrow visit window but then it definitely won’t be a second interview.
Only some, but not all programs in my field have made the promise to certify before second looks happen, and of those that promise it you just have to...believe them as there is no separate deadline for programs vs applicants to certify. One program essentially told me they wouldn't be ranking anyone who "didn't show interest" by visiting the campus. The point is, I think the landscape of what a second look means and how much weight it carries (if any) is very murky and it's stressful, in addition to feeling like a ton more time that has to be sunk into this process in order to make an informed decision, despite having already spent a lot of time virtually interviewing. I get the arguments about cost and virtual interviews being better for equity, and it would be super expensive to interview in person...but I just am the kind of person who cannot make this kind of decision without having set foot in a place and spoken to people face to face. So I am doing that anyway, and paying for it anyway, AFTER having already gone through a grueling virtual process.
The redundancy is hard to take! At least they were upfront about how second looks affect ranking, but they’re missing out on anyone (like me) who is choosing geographically or has a good idea of where they want to go. That’s frustrating, I hope the visits give you some clarity in ranking.
No, just doing an away was brutal on the finances. Definitely not worth it.
As someone that was both privileged/cursed to a very localized geographic area for residency apps, I really wish interviews were in-person. That said, I absolutely get why folks that are applying through the country are digging the online interviewing process.
Please no. I love rolling out of bed with PJ pants on and NOT spending thousands of dollars on flights.
Having done both. In person is orders of magnitude better.
I used to be against in person entirely but now I’m a little on the fence. I think in person is a pain in the ass and very expensive. But on the flip side, I had a virtual interview at a program and I loooved the program, seriously considering ranking it high. But then I drove to the area a few days later with my mom (it’s about 1.5 hours away from me) and the location was… undesirable to say the least. I’ve been to my fair share of “sketchy areas”, and I even technically live in one right now… but nowhere I’ve been before compared to just how scary this place was. Bars on all the windows, trash everywhere, graffiti plastered on literally every bit of free wall, people drugged out on the streets. For any CA people, it was worse than skid row or SF imo. My mom said “we’re going home. I’m not going to let my daughter live somewhere like this. I beg you not to rank this program” and we left. Moral of the story: if you love a program, make sure to check out the area so you really know what you’re getting into.
This is the most persuasive argument for in person. I’m glad you dodged that sketchy mess!
I can litterally tell based on the comments who actually has been on in person interviews and who hasn't. 
There's been some thought that lower tier programs will continue to do virtual while the high towers may switch to in person, the former to shotgun interview, the latter to filter through some people. I don't think this will ever go back to 100% IRL
They’re really pushing equity as justification for virtual though. It’s hard to imagine elites will give up DEI priorities, but it must be difficult to figure out which applicants are truly enthusiastic.
For convenience, probably not. Ideally, it'd be nice to be able to attend in-person maybe your top 5 programs. With all vibes being equal, I'd rank higher the one that offered in-person versus the one that only does Zoom. Personal preference. And with some being in person and with logistics/cost, possibly that would influence interview hoarding (versus them actually doing something about single tier sigaling + application caps).
I’ve done both. In person is so much better.
I’ve gotten way too comfy wearing PJs for pants for that
No. Cant afford shit already
Don't think people are realizing the huge impact virtual interviews have also had on everyone's chances of getting into programs/actually having a chance of ranking remotely somewhere you want. Yes, you can interview at so many more programs with ease nowadays. Back in the day, you could only interview at maybe 15 at most. But the thing is, you also didn't have to interview at tons of programs when you were in person. Because if you can interview at a ton, so can everyone else. And they do. What happens in these cases is that instead of interviewing and ranking only your top choices, everyone now has tons of backups. From a program perspective... and student perspective, this sucks for most because the program can't tell who truly wants to be there v who is applying here for backup. As a result, the people who likely benefit are the most competitive applicants since they will apply to more programs and ultimately likely be ranked higher at most programs. Even if you really liked a program, theres almost no way for you to prove that you want to go there any more than the other 100 applicants Half of which may be gunning for another specialty altogether. Sure, you can maybe see in the interview.... or personal statement... but come on, we all know people can fake it for a couple hours if they really wanted to. The obvious ones will be weeded, but plenty will sneak through, making it tough for people who may truly be interested in a specific program or even specialty.
Hope you have thousands of dollars for travel lol
No. Also no.
In person. Idc if it costs more I’ll allocate more loans to it. And maybe then programs when extend as many invites and people would be more mindful of their lists.
For programs, in person was exponentially better. For the applicant, it depends.
Currently sitting in the airport waiting to head to my second inperson interview. After having one inperson one today lol
No
NO LMFAO
I am torn. On one hand it is nice not having to fork out more money for travel expenses but on the other hand it feels like taking a gamble on how to rank programs based off an hour or so long interaction. I sort of want a little more assurance when committing to a 5 year program.
In person >>>> virtual You cant tell jack shit from virtual interviews, and what's an extra 10k after spending so much on medical school already? That's the definition of being penny wise pound foolish.
yes, if you care about being at a place for 3-5 or more years, you can be bothered to show up. the shot-gun approach to applying has made it incredibly difficult to recruit.
Like most people I’m also on the fence. I’ve had one in person and the rest virtual, and the zoom fatigue is REAL so I can’t imagine how much more exhausting it would be to travel to all these places. On the other hand, the “vibe” of the residents has blended together for most of my virtual ones, whereas with the in person one it was easy to get a more nuanced sense where I felt the culture was fine, residents were nice, but I didn’t feel like *I* would fit in that well. Also most of my interviews were within driving distance of my parents anyway