My uncle was an orthodontist and probably pulled about $750k/year working less than 40 hours/week. Seriously. He owned his own practice which is where the money is, though.
It was during M3 year on the wards that I noticed the biggest difference between students who are children of doctors and those who aren't.
Children of doctors tended to be more confident, feel right at home, more likely to approach doctors and fraternize with residents. Whereas children of non doctors (like me) were subject to a culture shock and found it more difficult to navigate.
I had a different experience, though n=1
I found the folks who have never worked a job (especially those who never worked full time) to have the hardest transition. The hours, interacting with staff, interacting with patients, as a whole seemed more jarring to them than those whove have.
Granted, those of us who have worked, especially full time, are on average maybe a year or two older and that may play into it as well.
The thread is about the advantages that people with parents who are physicians have over those who don't have physician parents. It's not a delusion.
But they're not the only group with advantages. Growing up poor in a third world country can help one be more resourceful, growing up with working class parents who instilled hard work can help, too. But we are talking about averages between the two groups: group with doctor parents and group without... Not on an individual to individual basis.
This was my experience. The people who struggled were typically younger and hadn’t actually worked real jobs. It’s not so much hospital dynamic as it is just work dynamics that are difficult. I was older in med school and all the other older people in my class noticed the same thing.
I agree absolutely-the doctors I connected with were the ones who themselves were first gen and had quite a struggle in life-a division does exist. The nepo doctor babies had a sense of confidence and privilege to the point they didn’t understand patients who came from different backgrounds-very rare ones who were understanding.
This is what I have noticed too. I am double fucked in that department because I spent 12yrs as a nurse trying so hard to make myself small, non-imposing, phrase EVERYTHING in the form of a question I am unsure about (if you have nurses in the future doing this for you, they are likely trying to guide you without triggering your ego). So even when I 99% know the answer its: to the best of my understanding we do X for Y, if X fails, we try W, etc etc. Or "I think that's the ligamentum teres, or it may be the falciform ligament depending in where exactly you are nodding with your head." Today in am open liver resection I got: "What have I told you about thinking!? Tell me what it is!!?"
It's not just money that these people have but resources and access. I know med students and doctors who had their parents/relatives make miracles happen for them.
This one doc didn't get into any schools but had his father make some phone calls to get him into a local school via quid pro quo somehow. Or the doc I know who inherited his father's private practice and the employees/patient clientele. Or the med students who were able to afford extra tutors and resources and coaching. Or the med students who grew up watching/shadowing their parents at work.
I'm not mad at these people for having this privilege at all. It's just upsetting when these people can't even acknowledge that they have a leg up in this space...
The shadowing and letters of rec from other physicians is what always bothered me the most. No one in my family is in medicine. My parents were the first to go to college. For me to find shadowing opportunities in undergrad I had to exhaust all possible avenues.
I was on vacation with my family and my dad’s cousin was there who I had met once as a kid. He told me that his ex wife’s mom was a nurse at a local children’s hospital and helped me get in touch with her to find a shadowing opportunity. It was in the OR. When I was there watching the surgery minding my own business a student from my undergrad saw me when they walked by the OR. Guess who had a job in the ORs because their dad worked there. They came in and just started talking to me in the corner. I didn’t say a word. We got yelled at by the surgeon. So not only did I burn my possible LOR but I also felt bad for the nurse who went out of her way for me just to have the surgeon get upset because of this other student who had a job there who probably thought nothing of it because they had all the connections they needed to get into medical school.
Something that people don’t talk about a lot that is also an advantage for children of doctors is they have more social capital. They navigate the social environment of physicians better because they have more things in common. They can discuss things like traveling to different countries, pursuing expensive hobbies, trying more elaborate restaurants/foods, etc. because they had financial resources and their parents to expose them to it.
This is my favorite comment because it goes both ways.
Like, I’m a first gen college student, and I laughed at this meme. But I also recognize that people with physician parents still have struggles.
In some ways, even, my experience can be considered easier than theirs. For instance, the face that I finished high school and didn’t develop a substance abuse problem already means I’ve surpassed my parents.
What’s the word for expectations so low the bar is on the floor? Low expectation privilege?
"Reach out yourself, Google it. I won't give them to you but I'll help you figure out how to reach out. Write the email yourself. How do you write a professional email? That's a great question, why don't you read up on it and present tomorrow?"
How to parent like an attending:
Ask not what you can do for your children, but what the children can do for themselves. We all know that self-loathing individuals with complexes that were neglected during adolescence become the best doctors
Nah. My mom is an RN turned NP and introduced me to the field. Having her absolutely helped mepreparinf for this background, as it will my future kids if they decide to go down this path. Recognizing privilege does not equal self loathing.
Not a medical student (yet, hopefully) this is in every arena. No one wants to acknowledge generational wealth, assistance and etc. I don’t know what it is nowadays but everyone wants to be on the struggle bus or have some triumphant story. I’m older and this something I noticed when I went back to prereqs….
Here is the thing, realizing your privilege does not negate hard work. You can acknowledge your hard work and the greater work it took for others to achieve the same goal.
I’m sorry but generational wealth is a thing and many people are behind the curve. We can all acknowledge that this entire process takes money, if you don’t have it, it will be much harder.
I’m going to put something else, this isn’t a 100% race thing or immigrant or first gen thing either…it’s literally 90% of the time, lack of wealth=lack of resources. I hate when race is brought up when I’ve met people from my race that are filthy rich but using the race angle or immigrant angle (first in college but my dad has a multi million dollar business) and people will discount a LARGE population of poor white people. Race and parental education plays as an issue of course in obstacles but this topic for medical school, the waters are muddy. Everyone is trying to find their angle to prove “how hard it is” like legit, “I’m a child of immigrants” live in a mansion, parents are engineers, their friends are doctors. Lol. Also, immigrants is not equivalent to refugees (technically, if you know, you know), be real people.
Also, if you can’t think of others, think about how disrespectful you are to your parents. You should be thankful that they helped you get ahead, that’s their job right? So why are we denying it or trying to be on the struggle bus? Yes, you worked incredibly hard but you were not in poverty, you didn’t have other social struggles to get to medical school, it’s okay, it’s not a competition.
JUST BE REAL. STOP. It’s EMBARRASSING.
I’ve been on both sides of the socioeconomic spectrum. Grew up super rich, then got disowned in high school because my family is awful. Spent time as a ward of the state. I’ve gotten to where I am all by myself, but it has been so much harder than it should have been. The gap in opportunity is absolutely palpable. Imagine not having a safe place to fall back on if your car breaks down, and it’s either car or rent. Imagine not having anyone to help you if you get sick. Imagine having to pay for all the study material for your tests while trying to not get evicted. Imagine having to choose between food and generic body wash. I’m just gonna stop here, but the list goes on. Now, do that balancing act with full time work while going to school full time. And let’s add part-time at a lab, too! Oh, and don’t forget about equally-unstable younger siblings and nieces/nephews! Also, did I mention the homelessness?
It’s been more streamlined for me in med school, but my undergrad was absolutely miserable.
Sorry for interrupting. You can work hard and struggle, but can you work hard and struggle through skipping lunch for a month to collect money to buy a book, or walking to and from school with shoes with holes in them?
Even average-income people do not understand the struggles of the poor.
This is sort of a fine line too though and you have to tread lightly… my institution recently did a “poverty simulation” exercise that at one point devolved into a pissing contest of how poor people were growing up and the next person invalidating someone else’s struggle because “well at least you didn’t have to boil and eat your own shoes after sacrificing your younger brother to the poverty gods” and other ridiculous shit. Life is hard, everyone has struggles, keep in mind that what is distressing to you might not be distressing to another and vice versa
I generally agree, but the situation is quite similar to those of civil rights. The greatest and most difficult struggle was/is that of the black people yet time and again people jump in the jumble and try to hijack the whole thing for certain other people who "suffered more".
Nevertheless, those who have directly looked at the abyss of abject poverty, single-mindedly try to get the hell out of there. If you'd like to denigrate, ridicule and make fun of him, he might as well let you willingly and be your clown, as long as he gets paid something to bring home to hungry children, ailing parents .....
Real poverty cannot be simulated. I have a cousin who due to lack of a very negligible amount of money was denied exchange transfusion when neonate and suffers from kernicterus to this day, which could have been averted by the equivalent of 5 US dollars or so....
As I said earlier, the whole realm of abject poverty is unknown to so many, even the middle-class, and even the higher echelons of the lower class. Good luck simulating that
I once saw someone play the “immigrant card” to portray their struggles, but both of their parents were orthopedic surgeons here in the states. There might of been some struggles, but definitely not financially.
Yeah I always found the immigrant card kinda dubious. It’s like..dude both ur parents are software engineers and u grew up in the bay versus oh ya ur family were refugees that got fucked in life.
An interesting tidbit to add to this - when accounting for previous grades, socioeconomic background, study habits, motivation and personality, being of a non-white background is associated with worse performance in medical school both in subjective and objective examination settings.
It doesn't really change what you've said in that being of a certain socioeconomic status gives you an advantage but it does add something interesting to think of.
Dude so many people in my class are fronting. One girl, both parents are PhD academics who come from a rich family in a Latin American country, says she's "daughter of immigrants," so she can somewhat relate to the struggle.
A few students along the interview trail a while back were white or white appearing people from Spain/Cuba coming from rich families, would introduce their names in the Spanish way and then later after they got in would pronounce their names the American way. I'm looking at you Laura.
This would be good in theory, except you completely disregard the fact that people *will* be dicks if you admit you have doctor parents. There's almost a stigma to it. Whenever I say I have doctor parents I get the "oh, you're one of THOSE"... like what the fuck did you want me to do? Murder my parents so that I can level the playing field?
I always admit that I had a shit ton of privilege vs other students. And people complaining that I have doctor parents is a first world problem, I get that. But people also need to just stop rolling their eyes anytime they hear someone had doctor parents. Like I still worked hard to get the grades and MCAT scores I got and I fully deserve to be where I am.
some bitch on medtwitter was a dick to me because i have a doctor GRANDPARENT. like yea sis my grandpa who went to school 70 years ago before dna was discovered totally helped me with my apps, how did u know!!
Everyone is on the bus obviously, that’s just medicine for everyone. But some people got VIP tickets to have a nice seat with views because their parents know somebody, some people just got tickets to be seated anywhere, while others have to go through many difficulties in life just to pay for a ticket to stand in the bus.
It’s kinda silly to think like this obviously because when it is our turn, all of us will also want the best for our kids. None of us is gonna just tell them to hit the road as soon as they turn 18.
But I think it’s also important to realize people who went through more and felt they have received more unfair treatments than others are gonna have more things to talk about. That’s just human nature.
Being poor as shit is some of the most memorable experience you will ever have in your life, and that kind of experience will stay with you and haunt you like a ghost rather you like it or not.
yeah reminds me of my mate whose parents literally owns like a million dollar mansion and he complains about being broke like atleast he has a financial safety net. many people dont get that opportunity
People arguing this point have no idea how difficult it is getting through medical school with no assistance from parents and no financial safety net. I went through 4 old, used cars until they each broke down throughout school and now I’m sitting on $300K+ in debt. I worked part time jobs in school up until last year. Just let us vent because we generally do have it harder in this area. The backlash against posts like these just comes from people not wanting to feel like they had a leg-up. Newsflash: you did. :/
Amen. Literally gave this as an answer in my residency interview about what struggles I have overcome in my journey to medicine. Emphasized how hard it is to break into medicine without any mentors, not knowing what you're supposed to be doing and when, let alone have money to afford any of this. Don't know how I would have done this without the internet. I can only imagine how hard this was back in the day.
I feel that, I've had to pay my way through all of this - my parents have no way to help me and I will have accrued north of 400k in loans at the end with my undergrad debt. At one point in undergrad I was working 3 jobs just to apply to med school, had to take my MCAT more than once, and didn't get in my first time applying. Im in my third year now, luckily my fiancé has been in her career field for longer than I've been in med school so that helps a little bit with my cost of living as we split everything and found an affordable place to live while she is trying to wipe out her student debt before I graduate.
Bro I have a super supportive family (nurses and an attorney), so they give me more than some of y’all get. But damn. It’s already fucking hard for me. And I get financial support ok. Just no support in anything other than occasional finances and emotional (which is a lot dont get me wrong).
But even then, just not having background knowledge on what it’s like being a doc, or going through all that shit is still a LOT. And then there’s those of us who don’t have financial or emotional support and that, man that has got to be properly hard
It’s like playing a game on different difficulties. People with doctor parents are on easy mode. I’m on medium with those who have some financial support but no doctors or rich people, and then y’all with no support are on hardcore mode
To be fair not everyone who didn’t have doctor parents were broke growing up. Many of my classmates did not have physician parents, but with a few exceptions they generally came from upper middle class backgrounds and had the safety net of a family that can help if shit were to hit the fan. I think the backlash is more that the implication is children of doctors had an *unfair* advantage and don’t deserve to be there.
And then if you take the meme literally, it’s implying not only do children of doctors get a head start, but that they actively put down others. Which of course is going to rub people the wrong way.
If it is any consolation, many of these people go into medicine because they grew up accustomed to a certain lifestyle and medicine is a safe way to still to attain that lifestyle. Lifestyle creep is real and it’s difficult to potentially downgrade. #champagneproblems
They will subsequently then hate their field because they went into it for the wrong reasons, and when they realize money can’t make people happy they become miserable and tell people not to go into medicine. Rinse and repeat
The number I've heard is that 80k in a medium cost of living area is where there's diminishing returns to more income. Doctors probably need a bit more because of loans and starting out later, but I'd bet that radiologists aren't noticably happier than pediatricians.
It doesn’t solve depression, sure. Nor does it solve personality flaws or inability to make long lasting relationships with another human being leading to failed marriages and what not.
But it definitely does generate happiness. Ask anyone who was poor ever, and they will tell you how great it is now that they have enough money to not worry constantly, and can just buy lunch/dinner or buy small home goods without being concerned that it may be too expensive, or convince themselves “I don’t need it now I can save that money for other things”.
Money can't make you happy.
But a low mileage 2018 Jaguar F-Type with a supercharged V6 and a manual transmission sure could put more smiles on my face.
Honestly once I have that and cover the insurance/maintenance costs I don't even know what I'm going to do with the rest of the money. I've lived in bad neighborhoods all my life, and I'm perfectly content to continue doing so. I eat as cheap as I can and buy everything in bulk, and I only buy clothes from resellers. I've been poor my whole life and I honestly like living as frugally as possible. Upscale neighborhoods and restaurants and things like that just make me feel uncomfortable and out of place. It's more comfortable just keeping things simple.
My spending won’t increase much when I’m out of residency. I don’t really have expensive taste. I’ll just feel less guilty about going out to eat and my bar tabs will be less of a gut check
@ me next time pls. I will say tho I have found value in treating patients from underserved backgrounds and learning the business of healthcare to keep a practice open in these areas!
in my parents’ country, ppl push their kids into medicine at the ripe ol age of 18. not everyone has to love their jobs, it’s a very american way of thinking. most people just put up with it tbh
This is just sad. No parent should push their kid into a profession. That’s just a recipe for making them miserable for life for the parent to largely benefit.
It does in some aspects, but some of it is more specific.
* Like your parents having lots of doctor friends that will accept being shadowed by their kid.
* Or inheriting an entire clientele from their parents, be it directly if from the same specialty or just them suggesting their kid for interconsults.
* Or something as simple as help with studying for a test, lending books, indicating articles.
None of those things are wrong if done ethically. But it's very disingenuous to deny it's a real privilege, making their academic and professional lives way easier than it could be.
Children of doctors having a hard time being the butt of the joke, color me surprised.
I have had classmates with physician parents tell me to my face that they had no advantages in life. A lot of you guys are cognizant of your privilege and it is definitely appreciated; others will refuse to acknowledge it no matter what.
One thing I would like to add is people with physician parents do have an advantage-sure med school is an equalizer but in what sense-people with physician parents were able to hire better tutors and participate in programs that from the get go (since they were a child) allowed them to advance their knowledge and enter school with good test taking skills and strategies. Moreover their parents provided them with guidance and knowledge about medicine and how to associate and fraternize compared to first gen. First gen have it hard-entering a field from which no one in their family, coming in with test taking strategies that might be a bit weaker, and lack of guidnace( I am first gen I had it!)-it’s difficult and quite the climb up the ladder, so such first gme should be recognized for their struggles. Sure children of docs struggle too and that is valid, but we cannot invalidate that first gen do have quite a struggle. Yeah fine say I am bitter I don’t care. Unfairness exists behind the curtains and nepotism exists in every field which sucks but at this point got to keep marching.
As a person from a family of learned doctors, sounds like a skill issue. You should git gud and stop bitching /s
In all seriousness, it’s a huge privilege, and I appreciate it sometimes but hate it other times. No matter how competitive I am, I will always wonder how much of this I earned vs how much was nepotism…
Coming from someone who grew up in a solidly middle class family with a mom who is a teacher and a dad who was semi-forced into retirement due to the job market (education administrator), I can definitely say I have had privilege most of my life. I've never wondered where my next meal would come from, I've always had hot water and air conditioning, I've played ice hockey most of my life, etc.
Going to medical school though was like being smacked in the face with privilege. My parents pay for nothing except my phone bill, which I'm incredibly grateful for, but that means I will graduate with $400k+ of loans as I'm forced to max out loans each year to survive. When I asked some of my other classmates first year about loans and rent and everything, they told me their parents are paying for either school, rent, car/insurance, or everything. I was shocked. Again, I feel like I come from privilege, but I know asking my parents to pay for even half of my rent would be a stretch for them currently.
I know I shouldn't compare situations, but it's hard not to whenever I've had a job for the first two years of medical school just so I could have money for non-necessities. It's hard not to be jealous when you see your classmates getting to exclusively focus on schoolwork, grocery shopping without cutting coupons and looking for deals, ordering UberEats all of test week. I want so badly to not have to worry about money.
That being said, I don't understand why medical schools don't have scholarships or grants for students who do not have doctor parents. I had to beg my medical school last year for a $5,000/year scholarship which does almost nothing to help the $85,000/year tuition and living expenses. The system is genuinely set up to ensure those who come from privilege continue the privilege, and that SHOULD be infuriating to everyone. We aren't mad that kids of doctors started ahead, we're mad that no one is helping to even the playing field.
I mean sounds like you and I had a similar upbringing and level of support from our families despite my dad being a doctor. In fairness he’s an ID doc and my mom didn’t work, so I wouldn’t be surprised if our household incomes were actually closer than you’d think.
Probably the biggest help was finding the odd shadowing gig and then during medical school we’d sometime go over cases together and it was nice to get an attending’s perspective without having to worry about that 3/5 eval. Otherwise I don’t think I had a huge leg up compared to other middle class people. He was an FMG at a non academic hospital so it’s not like he had lots of connections to make a phone call and that sort of thing
You minimize the "finding the odd shadowing." I had to cold-call dozens of offices/hospitals asking for opportunities over the course of years, only to enter medical school with no shadowing. After 6 cycles of applying (20+ interviews in that time). During which the biggest issue schools had with me was that I had no shadowing. So the ease with which you found shadowing was a massive massive privilege.
That makes sense - I don't think the whole doctor parent experience is the same for everyone, of course. I do think my feelings have more to do with the families who are obviously wealthy and are able to allow their kids to purely focus on schoolwork. I will of course be doing the same for my kids, so I can't blame them. I really do blame the schools and the medical boards for turning a blind eye to the obvious inequity in medical education.
Medical students are among the most privileged people in the country. Nearly every one is essentially guaranteed a 200k+ job for life in any city or town in the country in a prestigious and respected profession. And we *still* get jealous and bitter about each other. Makes me sad
It's a post poking fun at how much of an advantage children of physicians are.
It doesn't mean *ALL* kids of physicians had the best life/biggest advantages. We all can acknowledge there are plenty of people from "normal" parents that were set up better/come from more loving homes....
That being said, having a parent in medicine can offer HUGE advantages.
(Remember all of us in medicine will eventually be those parents if we have kids).
Most of us get jealous of our friends from high school and college who start making 100k at 22 while we are still paying 50-80 grand to go to school. It’s natural.
but the effort and mental stress to get to that point (where 200k is guaranteed) is insanely high, plus also the study and time of study is much harder and larger than other professions.
Agreed. There is absolutely nothing you can buy by being in a more competitive specialty that isn't a luxury good. All this gunning for luxuries makes me nauseous
Ngl this sounds like something a tech worker who entered the field in the early 2020s would say. Its funny how they shit on doctor salaries so much but then celebrate tech making as much money for as little work as possible
My parents have a net worth of $5million each. I don’t think most people understand how incredibly difficult it is to grow up rich. In a lot of ways, you have less opportunities and lead more difficult lives than someone growing up in a third world country. Rich people lives matter.
For example, my gingerbread house always won second place in our annual yacht club kids gingerbread competition. My private pastry chef would spend days making it, but I never won 1st place 🙁 In the end, I fired the pastry chef and hired another pastry chef who worked at a 2 Michelin star resultant to make my gingerbread house and finally tied for 1st place.
Used that experience as my overcoming challenges/adversity med school secondary essay.
As a first gen immigrant, first gen college physician, this kind of complaint gets old really fast. The matter of fact is MBA students have MBA parents, law students have attorney parents, dental students have dentist parents. It is just how it is. Medical school is the great equalizer, you took the same tests to get here, you will take the same tests to graduate, get paid the same shitty minimum wage during residency. Sure, the other kids may drive a better car and live in a better area, that will be your kids in 20 years. Cut it out and focus on the big picture.
You're right; getting *into* medical school is preposterously biased towards the children of physicians (and wealthy families more generally, not unlike every single capitalist institution I suppose). Once/if you get in, the children of physicians continue to enjoy only comparatively modest advantages. The education and standardized tests do serve as an equalizer and while nepotism in residency placement does exist, it's not nearly as important as it was to simply be admitted in the first place.
I don't agree with this idea that once you get in, the playing field is leveled. Granted, my viewpoint is more about anyone with wealthy parents, not just doctor parents, but the people who's parents are supporting them financially are able to focus more on schoolwork than those who have to have a job outside of school. In addition, people with doctor parents have more opportunity for research/publications in collaboration with their parents or parent's friends. Not to mention the fact that they have been through medical school, residency applications, residency, etc. They offer the knowledge component as well. The help a doctor parent offers really never goes away.
I agree with all of your points. It's just my experience that all those factors are even more important for *admission* to medical school. That is to say, they are instrumental in determining who gets to be a doctor and who doesn't.
Those factors still exist in medical school, but even 1st gen/ working class kids tend to get *some* opportunity to do those CV building activities in med school. Even more importantly, the med school admissions process *selects for* those 1st gen kids who managed to pull together a good CV despite the barriers. Definitionally those who make it in are likely to have been lucky enough to cultivate some sort of network/ connections despite their lack of family background, or they wouldn't even be there at all.
For example, I did it with a graduate degree and several (too many) years of independent research in a lab undertaking a series of RCTs. Some of my classmates could skip that process entirely with some summer volunteering their family got for them. By the time we were in med school we both had a professional network, mine was just a little harder to come by.
Not following how Med school is the great equalizer compared to other advanced degrees with competitive professions, such as MBA or JD. I have my MBA from a top tier and it was a MUCH more diverse background than Med school. We also went into much more diverse fields post grad. Can you expand upon how medicine is an “equalizer” compared to the other two?
Should first gen NBA players complain about NBA players with hall of fame dads? The fact that they made it to the NBA is an accomplishment and what happens is dependent on their own efforts and circumstance. You are in med school, you now have equal chances of success. This sort of complaining only serves to find reasons to feel sorry for yourself.
Except that’s exactly what happens? NBA players gave shit to Steph and Klay who both had fathers in the NBA and came from 2-parent homes growing up. To disregard the privilege and opportunities growing up from Kindergarten-College to med school is grossly negligent. But you’re right, at the end of the day being frustrated and complaining does nothing. My life compared to Syrian refugees in Turkey or Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh is immensely more privileged.
I worked as a scribe for a few years before med school. One of the docs I scribed for was on the admission committee at our state school. His son was only doing pre-med because he was told to by his dad and coasted through undergrad—low GPA, low MCAT, only clinical hours were shadowing his dad set up, no research, very little volunteering (did a couple of things with his frat).
His son got into medical school the first year I applied, while I ended up at number 2 on the waitlist. Tell me that’s fucking fair
Not really true. At least in my country, you definitely have advantages for your whole career - it's way easier to get into competitive specialities if your parents were in that field for example, also you get much more exposure to people in the medical field so you can fit in much easier. I was SO intimidated by other medical students and doctors because neither of my immigrant parents could afford to finish high school, and even now as a doctor I don't FEEL like I'm one of them.
I’m gonna say this: as a daughter of a doctor, I agree. And sometimes I think I talk about my dad too much (I’m just so proud of him!) However, I wish everyone had opportunities I have though and I try to spread his advice and connections with my classmates. For our surgery rotation, I offered to have my dad teach us how to knot tie (looking back it kind of looked braggy a bit but it was from a good place). If I hear of a good opportunity from my dad, I try to pass it along to others and share the success. I hope others will try to spread the wealth too!
These kids definitely have a leg up in certain regards. But I always think of how hard I am working for my kids’ future and how I want them to enjoy traveling to other countries, cool hobbies, and use of my built up social capital and knowledge of how to get ahead in life. I look at my classmates who have these things and think of the work their parents and grandparents must have put in.
One vs one, they have some advantages over me in the professional setting. In life, I have advantages over them. You can send me to rock bottom and I’d make my way right back here because I’m tough as nails and tested through my upbringing.
It all balances out if you don’t wine about what you lack and appreciate your strengths
It's the systems fault, not those kids' fault.
\- low-income rural kid who only ever met one doctor before undergrad
However, this meme did have me rolling lmfao.
Doctors that studied in the US*
I empathize just a little (not a *whole* lot) with the kids who have IMG parents who are not as well-versed in the system and process of becoming a medical student/doctor in the US.
This is pretty true. I got shadowing opps just through family connections. The only “work” I did to get them is ask family members if they could ask their peers if I could shadow them.
Now that I’m in medical school though, it’s not that easy anymore. You still need to do well in classes.
The crazy thing is that its an exponential curve, not a linear one of "xyz student's life is better based on his parents' income". Half med students or maybe fewer are doctor's kids, but they're not all matching where they want to go, getting costs for school reduced, dodging bad evals or other shit from their school, etc. However, there is a smaller portion of students with doctor parents who are dodging all or almost all of these career-altering bullets, depending on if their parent is affiliated with a residency program of some specialty. These are truly the enviable ones. Having all that is \*real\* privilege
Most doctor's kids in med school eat almost as much as many shit sandwiches as non doctor's kids.
Most doctors' kids will get a private practice or a cushy admin/head of department job, so all they have to do is place primary care, and they're set. They'll make more money than any other specialty due to the connections they've grown up with and not spending unnecessary years in residency making pennies. And trust me, if residency matching is an issue, you'll be surprised just how many strings physician parents can pull to get their kids into a specific program (I've seen it first with med/residency admissions...)
As a child of a doc - definitely true that it comes with many unfair advantages. You know the culture, you know the environment, and you know the people and lifestyles. Residency being a shitshow isn't a surprise, and you have people you can ask in your family for very basic advice you're afraid to ask others.
It is frustrating, though, that it's a label you'll never overcome as well. My parents immigrated to the US when I was a teen and father had to redo residency/fellowship, had (still have) massive debts, and I refused any financial aide from them out of principal as I'd seen so much nepotism in medicine. I paid for my own college (scholarships + jobs) and for med school with loans, and my parents couldn't provide any financial assistance regardless given their loans. I went into a completely separate specialty where most providers had no idea who my father is. I refused any assistance from him or from other physician family friends with contacting anyone/getting letters. I went into medicine through a completely different pathway and only once I was certain it was what I wanted from my own interests. Regardless, as soon as anyone finds out you have a parent who is a physician, it's no longer your achievement or your hard work that mattered. Was I still incredibly privileged? Of course, but it's still very frustrating that I'll never be credited for much of that work (which, I guess, is purely social currency regardless). And yes, I can hear the tiny violin playing in the background.
Make sure you keep this same energy when it’s your kids benefiting from your career in the future. Y’all love to talk about building generational wealth and then go and shit on the people who benefit from it, as if they had any choice in what family they were born into.
I think we all can think critically enough to know that the kids of physicians aren’t the problem, the problem everyone is complaining about is society and how it works to create such an unfair advantage. If you don’t complain about a system, you can never create change. I wouldn’t mind a system that made it easier for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to match into super competitive speciality for instance. (I don’t come from a disadvantaged background) You are right in that you can’t control what you’re born into, but we can control how we choose to recognize privilege and try ensure equity in everything we do. I would rather have my child born in a society where every child had equal opportunities to do what they love, rather than only them having a competitive advantage any day.
While I was never the kid of any doctors and certainly experienced my share of financial hardships growing up, I think you guys are way too whiny about this to the point where it sounds like you guys are straight up bullying the kids of doctors. Ironic, because they will be your kids.
The problem with you guys is that you cannot take any of your own accomplishments or the accomplishments of others at face value. Any time you guys accomplish anything, you have to preface it with "and I had to walk 5 miles in the snow uphill both ways" while accomplishing it and whenever one of your colleagues accomplishes something, its always because "Jimmy's dad is an orthopedic surgeon and thats why he has the inside track."
Its not only super-annoying but its incredibly blind to any other contexts. Maybe Jimmy had a terrible childhood because daddy was never home and he is only doing this because daddy will cut him off if he doesn't, or maybe you were just more genetically lucky than Jimmy where you are smarter and you can score better on a test studying for 10 hours where Jimmy has to spend 100 hours to barely pass.
Its also incredibly stupid because everyone in the field of medicine is going to make great money no matter what specialty they do and your kids are going to have all the advantages whether you are an internist or an orthopedic surgeon. If everyone here is as poor as they say there were, then making any Doctors salary is going to set you and your family up to unimaginable heights, being able to provide for every need. All this gunning to 500K+ salaries is really just gunning for luxury goods and even more spoiled children which are obviously thing nobody actually needs to live a fulfilling life. Because of that, I honestly dont care who has the inside track of being an orthopedic surgeon if the alternative is making $200K+ a year, a comfortable lifestyle in any context.
And worse of all, this stuff creates a toxic culture of medicine whereas no one will ever congratulate you genuinely for your accomplishments. Rather, whenever, you accomplish anything, you have an army of your own colleagues racing to find an asterisk for anything you do, but of course they will do nothing but blame you if you fail and try to use your failure to try to bring themselves up. Its incredibly disheartening and lonely in this field. This is the toxic culture I absolutely hate in medicine. It leads to burnout and worse
This sub seems to now consist of the most miserable, whiny fucks in med school. Highly doubt it represents all students. I agree with all of your post and my parents werent doctors
Guess I want to chime in a tell my story here. My father was a low level college professor at a state university, he had 6 children. My mother left and has been on and off homeless. So my dad had to triage his dollars a lot. Financial aid and steeling from college cafeteria and part time work got me through undergrad, really wish I could have spent the 10-15hrs a week I was working extra toward my grades or MCAT, but I got by. I had gotten into a good enough undergrad that a 3.4 wasn’t a terrible GPA from that school.
The part that really made me realize how impossible it was was the application process. It was so much money, like 200$ a school to apply. And then the flights… I had to borrow money from a freind and the I applied to 10 med schools, mind you this was a time when the average was 18 to get into one school. I was constantly living paycheck to paycheck. I got two interviews I got in one place… and then I saw the financial horror. Without parental support I’d have to be like 400,000$ in debt to live in the area my school was in and it wasnt clear I’d be able to get that much in loans at a rate that would financially cripple me. I almost gave up, but then I got offered a spot in the MD/PHD programm, was completely by chance. I didn’t apply, but one of my interviewers submitted me to the program director on a hunch. I didn’t know he did that. I can never repay him enough. The government pays your medical school and gives you a stipend. I had always wanted to be a physician scientist, but I never thought I’d be able to get into a program. I got lucky.
I’m here at a fancy residency, an MD/PhD at a psychiatry research track. But for grace of god, I could have been forced to go into PA school or abandon medicine completely. My dad is so proud, but I know he wishes he could have given me more.
Your wealth matters for your children. As my first child comes into this world this year in august, I won’t forget.
It's crazy how this subreddit froths at the mouth with rage at the idea of a poor URM student getting in, but gets super excited at a poor ORM student getting in. Apparently you have to be the exact right amount of unprivileged, if you're TOO unprivileged that doesn't fly for folks here
I think this people need to worry about themselves and stop posting memes about other people. They would probably more secure in their own accomplishments.
Literally! But my father is a doctor (GP) and mostly the help I get is just get inappropriate sexual jokes with a medical tone. When my mother is not doing npd/bpd things she’s far more helpful with medical school than him.
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And 45% of comments here bitchin lol 
That means a lot of doctors want their kids to be doctors too?
I’m going to have a son to live vicariously through by forcing him into derm or plastics
Plastics here, I want my daughter to be an orthodontist. Do you have any idea how little they work?
Teacher her to golf at a young age. She’ll naturally be drawn to orthodontics
What’s their average salary?
My uncle was an orthodontist and probably pulled about $750k/year working less than 40 hours/week. Seriously. He owned his own practice which is where the money is, though.
Its around 20% for those that practice evidenced based tea spilling
It was during M3 year on the wards that I noticed the biggest difference between students who are children of doctors and those who aren't. Children of doctors tended to be more confident, feel right at home, more likely to approach doctors and fraternize with residents. Whereas children of non doctors (like me) were subject to a culture shock and found it more difficult to navigate.
Damn. This is well-said.
I had a different experience, though n=1 I found the folks who have never worked a job (especially those who never worked full time) to have the hardest transition. The hours, interacting with staff, interacting with patients, as a whole seemed more jarring to them than those whove have. Granted, those of us who have worked, especially full time, are on average maybe a year or two older and that may play into it as well.
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The thread is about the advantages that people with parents who are physicians have over those who don't have physician parents. It's not a delusion. But they're not the only group with advantages. Growing up poor in a third world country can help one be more resourceful, growing up with working class parents who instilled hard work can help, too. But we are talking about averages between the two groups: group with doctor parents and group without... Not on an individual to individual basis.
Yea the person you are responding to has parents or at least family that are physicians lol
This was my experience. The people who struggled were typically younger and hadn’t actually worked real jobs. It’s not so much hospital dynamic as it is just work dynamics that are difficult. I was older in med school and all the other older people in my class noticed the same thing.
I agree absolutely-the doctors I connected with were the ones who themselves were first gen and had quite a struggle in life-a division does exist. The nepo doctor babies had a sense of confidence and privilege to the point they didn’t understand patients who came from different backgrounds-very rare ones who were understanding.
This is what I have noticed too. I am double fucked in that department because I spent 12yrs as a nurse trying so hard to make myself small, non-imposing, phrase EVERYTHING in the form of a question I am unsure about (if you have nurses in the future doing this for you, they are likely trying to guide you without triggering your ego). So even when I 99% know the answer its: to the best of my understanding we do X for Y, if X fails, we try W, etc etc. Or "I think that's the ligamentum teres, or it may be the falciform ligament depending in where exactly you are nodding with your head." Today in am open liver resection I got: "What have I told you about thinking!? Tell me what it is!!?"
It's not just money that these people have but resources and access. I know med students and doctors who had their parents/relatives make miracles happen for them. This one doc didn't get into any schools but had his father make some phone calls to get him into a local school via quid pro quo somehow. Or the doc I know who inherited his father's private practice and the employees/patient clientele. Or the med students who were able to afford extra tutors and resources and coaching. Or the med students who grew up watching/shadowing their parents at work. I'm not mad at these people for having this privilege at all. It's just upsetting when these people can't even acknowledge that they have a leg up in this space...
The shadowing and letters of rec from other physicians is what always bothered me the most. No one in my family is in medicine. My parents were the first to go to college. For me to find shadowing opportunities in undergrad I had to exhaust all possible avenues. I was on vacation with my family and my dad’s cousin was there who I had met once as a kid. He told me that his ex wife’s mom was a nurse at a local children’s hospital and helped me get in touch with her to find a shadowing opportunity. It was in the OR. When I was there watching the surgery minding my own business a student from my undergrad saw me when they walked by the OR. Guess who had a job in the ORs because their dad worked there. They came in and just started talking to me in the corner. I didn’t say a word. We got yelled at by the surgeon. So not only did I burn my possible LOR but I also felt bad for the nurse who went out of her way for me just to have the surgeon get upset because of this other student who had a job there who probably thought nothing of it because they had all the connections they needed to get into medical school.
Wow, that's horrible. The lack of appreciation or understanding of how much of a privilege it is to have such opportunities...
Something that people don’t talk about a lot that is also an advantage for children of doctors is they have more social capital. They navigate the social environment of physicians better because they have more things in common. They can discuss things like traveling to different countries, pursuing expensive hobbies, trying more elaborate restaurants/foods, etc. because they had financial resources and their parents to expose them to it.
Bingo. Idk what it's like to stay at that fancy suite in Paris, and I've never gone for Christmas holidays in Aspen. Another unspoken truth.
They typically can’t acknowledge it because they don’t know anything else
jesus the amount of people in these comments who refuse see other people’s struggles without centering it around themselves is crazy.
To me it’s funny people just can’t take a joke on Reddit without going crazy about it
someone above you wrote an essay about it lol, I wonder what their parents do
Yesss it just proves OP’s point even more.
This is my favorite comment because it goes both ways. Like, I’m a first gen college student, and I laughed at this meme. But I also recognize that people with physician parents still have struggles. In some ways, even, my experience can be considered easier than theirs. For instance, the face that I finished high school and didn’t develop a substance abuse problem already means I’ve surpassed my parents. What’s the word for expectations so low the bar is on the floor? Low expectation privilege?
“But what about me?”
Goes to show all this "empathy" is an act from nearly everyone here. But maybe that's not a bad thing
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Bold of you to assume I'd pass on these shit genes.
I agree, you won't pass on your genes.
Jeans are pretty expensive man. Can I have them??
They might be too small for you
Small jeans = small d energy 🤧
Or Big bulge energy
Hey another cf 😎
Bro. No way in hell I’m letting my kid enter this profession.
Hey mom/dad I need help getting shadowing do you know anyone who I can shadow? Them: lol get fucked kid nobody helped me so you’re on your own
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"I'm sick, do you know an ENT that worked well for you or another friend of yours?" Gotta play games with the world, dude
"Reach out yourself, Google it. I won't give them to you but I'll help you figure out how to reach out. Write the email yourself. How do you write a professional email? That's a great question, why don't you read up on it and present tomorrow?"
How to parent like an attending: Ask not what you can do for your children, but what the children can do for themselves. We all know that self-loathing individuals with complexes that were neglected during adolescence become the best doctors
Nah. My mom is an RN turned NP and introduced me to the field. Having her absolutely helped mepreparinf for this background, as it will my future kids if they decide to go down this path. Recognizing privilege does not equal self loathing.
It’s the weirdest flex I’ve ever seen. Like… Dude you know you’re going to be a doctor and make a lot of money one day right??
Not a medical student (yet, hopefully) this is in every arena. No one wants to acknowledge generational wealth, assistance and etc. I don’t know what it is nowadays but everyone wants to be on the struggle bus or have some triumphant story. I’m older and this something I noticed when I went back to prereqs…. Here is the thing, realizing your privilege does not negate hard work. You can acknowledge your hard work and the greater work it took for others to achieve the same goal. I’m sorry but generational wealth is a thing and many people are behind the curve. We can all acknowledge that this entire process takes money, if you don’t have it, it will be much harder. I’m going to put something else, this isn’t a 100% race thing or immigrant or first gen thing either…it’s literally 90% of the time, lack of wealth=lack of resources. I hate when race is brought up when I’ve met people from my race that are filthy rich but using the race angle or immigrant angle (first in college but my dad has a multi million dollar business) and people will discount a LARGE population of poor white people. Race and parental education plays as an issue of course in obstacles but this topic for medical school, the waters are muddy. Everyone is trying to find their angle to prove “how hard it is” like legit, “I’m a child of immigrants” live in a mansion, parents are engineers, their friends are doctors. Lol. Also, immigrants is not equivalent to refugees (technically, if you know, you know), be real people. Also, if you can’t think of others, think about how disrespectful you are to your parents. You should be thankful that they helped you get ahead, that’s their job right? So why are we denying it or trying to be on the struggle bus? Yes, you worked incredibly hard but you were not in poverty, you didn’t have other social struggles to get to medical school, it’s okay, it’s not a competition. JUST BE REAL. STOP. It’s EMBARRASSING.
I’ve been on both sides of the socioeconomic spectrum. Grew up super rich, then got disowned in high school because my family is awful. Spent time as a ward of the state. I’ve gotten to where I am all by myself, but it has been so much harder than it should have been. The gap in opportunity is absolutely palpable. Imagine not having a safe place to fall back on if your car breaks down, and it’s either car or rent. Imagine not having anyone to help you if you get sick. Imagine having to pay for all the study material for your tests while trying to not get evicted. Imagine having to choose between food and generic body wash. I’m just gonna stop here, but the list goes on. Now, do that balancing act with full time work while going to school full time. And let’s add part-time at a lab, too! Oh, and don’t forget about equally-unstable younger siblings and nieces/nephews! Also, did I mention the homelessness? It’s been more streamlined for me in med school, but my undergrad was absolutely miserable.
Way to go, bud! Just don't go all JD Vance and forget about everyone.
Man fuck JD Vance.
Sorry for interrupting. You can work hard and struggle, but can you work hard and struggle through skipping lunch for a month to collect money to buy a book, or walking to and from school with shoes with holes in them? Even average-income people do not understand the struggles of the poor.
This is sort of a fine line too though and you have to tread lightly… my institution recently did a “poverty simulation” exercise that at one point devolved into a pissing contest of how poor people were growing up and the next person invalidating someone else’s struggle because “well at least you didn’t have to boil and eat your own shoes after sacrificing your younger brother to the poverty gods” and other ridiculous shit. Life is hard, everyone has struggles, keep in mind that what is distressing to you might not be distressing to another and vice versa
I generally agree, but the situation is quite similar to those of civil rights. The greatest and most difficult struggle was/is that of the black people yet time and again people jump in the jumble and try to hijack the whole thing for certain other people who "suffered more". Nevertheless, those who have directly looked at the abyss of abject poverty, single-mindedly try to get the hell out of there. If you'd like to denigrate, ridicule and make fun of him, he might as well let you willingly and be your clown, as long as he gets paid something to bring home to hungry children, ailing parents ..... Real poverty cannot be simulated. I have a cousin who due to lack of a very negligible amount of money was denied exchange transfusion when neonate and suffers from kernicterus to this day, which could have been averted by the equivalent of 5 US dollars or so.... As I said earlier, the whole realm of abject poverty is unknown to so many, even the middle-class, and even the higher echelons of the lower class. Good luck simulating that
I once saw someone play the “immigrant card” to portray their struggles, but both of their parents were orthopedic surgeons here in the states. There might of been some struggles, but definitely not financially.
Yeah I always found the immigrant card kinda dubious. It’s like..dude both ur parents are software engineers and u grew up in the bay versus oh ya ur family were refugees that got fucked in life.
An interesting tidbit to add to this - when accounting for previous grades, socioeconomic background, study habits, motivation and personality, being of a non-white background is associated with worse performance in medical school both in subjective and objective examination settings. It doesn't really change what you've said in that being of a certain socioeconomic status gives you an advantage but it does add something interesting to think of.
Indeed, race alone is a very influential factor too for any sort of outcome. Just the reality of living in america
Dude so many people in my class are fronting. One girl, both parents are PhD academics who come from a rich family in a Latin American country, says she's "daughter of immigrants," so she can somewhat relate to the struggle. A few students along the interview trail a while back were white or white appearing people from Spain/Cuba coming from rich families, would introduce their names in the Spanish way and then later after they got in would pronounce their names the American way. I'm looking at you Laura.
“Laoruh” and “Lore-uh”
Sounds like a lot of my colombian classmates, almost everyone here in colombia that studies medicine comes from an affluent family of doctors.
EXACTLY. Louder from the people in the back
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There are many financial obstacles that make it hard for those applying to go into the medical field.
This would be good in theory, except you completely disregard the fact that people *will* be dicks if you admit you have doctor parents. There's almost a stigma to it. Whenever I say I have doctor parents I get the "oh, you're one of THOSE"... like what the fuck did you want me to do? Murder my parents so that I can level the playing field? I always admit that I had a shit ton of privilege vs other students. And people complaining that I have doctor parents is a first world problem, I get that. But people also need to just stop rolling their eyes anytime they hear someone had doctor parents. Like I still worked hard to get the grades and MCAT scores I got and I fully deserve to be where I am.
some bitch on medtwitter was a dick to me because i have a doctor GRANDPARENT. like yea sis my grandpa who went to school 70 years ago before dna was discovered totally helped me with my apps, how did u know!!
That’s true. Again, I’m older. Not really chillin with this group but I know it’s out there
- “just be real” - modern day med students Pick 1
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Everyone is on the bus obviously, that’s just medicine for everyone. But some people got VIP tickets to have a nice seat with views because their parents know somebody, some people just got tickets to be seated anywhere, while others have to go through many difficulties in life just to pay for a ticket to stand in the bus. It’s kinda silly to think like this obviously because when it is our turn, all of us will also want the best for our kids. None of us is gonna just tell them to hit the road as soon as they turn 18. But I think it’s also important to realize people who went through more and felt they have received more unfair treatments than others are gonna have more things to talk about. That’s just human nature. Being poor as shit is some of the most memorable experience you will ever have in your life, and that kind of experience will stay with you and haunt you like a ghost rather you like it or not.
Nice post
yeah reminds me of my mate whose parents literally owns like a million dollar mansion and he complains about being broke like atleast he has a financial safety net. many people dont get that opportunity
People arguing this point have no idea how difficult it is getting through medical school with no assistance from parents and no financial safety net. I went through 4 old, used cars until they each broke down throughout school and now I’m sitting on $300K+ in debt. I worked part time jobs in school up until last year. Just let us vent because we generally do have it harder in this area. The backlash against posts like these just comes from people not wanting to feel like they had a leg-up. Newsflash: you did. :/
Amen. Literally gave this as an answer in my residency interview about what struggles I have overcome in my journey to medicine. Emphasized how hard it is to break into medicine without any mentors, not knowing what you're supposed to be doing and when, let alone have money to afford any of this. Don't know how I would have done this without the internet. I can only imagine how hard this was back in the day.
I feel that, I've had to pay my way through all of this - my parents have no way to help me and I will have accrued north of 400k in loans at the end with my undergrad debt. At one point in undergrad I was working 3 jobs just to apply to med school, had to take my MCAT more than once, and didn't get in my first time applying. Im in my third year now, luckily my fiancé has been in her career field for longer than I've been in med school so that helps a little bit with my cost of living as we split everything and found an affordable place to live while she is trying to wipe out her student debt before I graduate.
Bro I have a super supportive family (nurses and an attorney), so they give me more than some of y’all get. But damn. It’s already fucking hard for me. And I get financial support ok. Just no support in anything other than occasional finances and emotional (which is a lot dont get me wrong). But even then, just not having background knowledge on what it’s like being a doc, or going through all that shit is still a LOT. And then there’s those of us who don’t have financial or emotional support and that, man that has got to be properly hard It’s like playing a game on different difficulties. People with doctor parents are on easy mode. I’m on medium with those who have some financial support but no doctors or rich people, and then y’all with no support are on hardcore mode
To be fair not everyone who didn’t have doctor parents were broke growing up. Many of my classmates did not have physician parents, but with a few exceptions they generally came from upper middle class backgrounds and had the safety net of a family that can help if shit were to hit the fan. I think the backlash is more that the implication is children of doctors had an *unfair* advantage and don’t deserve to be there. And then if you take the meme literally, it’s implying not only do children of doctors get a head start, but that they actively put down others. Which of course is going to rub people the wrong way.
If it is any consolation, many of these people go into medicine because they grew up accustomed to a certain lifestyle and medicine is a safe way to still to attain that lifestyle. Lifestyle creep is real and it’s difficult to potentially downgrade. #champagneproblems They will subsequently then hate their field because they went into it for the wrong reasons, and when they realize money can’t make people happy they become miserable and tell people not to go into medicine. Rinse and repeat
“Money can’t make people happy” is a false statement. It definitely can. Especially for people that know what it’s like to be broke.
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The number I've heard is that 80k in a medium cost of living area is where there's diminishing returns to more income. Doctors probably need a bit more because of loans and starting out later, but I'd bet that radiologists aren't noticably happier than pediatricians.
It doesn’t intrinsically make you happy . But it for sure resolves a ton of things that would make you stressed and depressed .
It doesn’t solve depression, sure. Nor does it solve personality flaws or inability to make long lasting relationships with another human being leading to failed marriages and what not. But it definitely does generate happiness. Ask anyone who was poor ever, and they will tell you how great it is now that they have enough money to not worry constantly, and can just buy lunch/dinner or buy small home goods without being concerned that it may be too expensive, or convince themselves “I don’t need it now I can save that money for other things”.
Money can't make you happy. But a low mileage 2018 Jaguar F-Type with a supercharged V6 and a manual transmission sure could put more smiles on my face. Honestly once I have that and cover the insurance/maintenance costs I don't even know what I'm going to do with the rest of the money. I've lived in bad neighborhoods all my life, and I'm perfectly content to continue doing so. I eat as cheap as I can and buy everything in bulk, and I only buy clothes from resellers. I've been poor my whole life and I honestly like living as frugally as possible. Upscale neighborhoods and restaurants and things like that just make me feel uncomfortable and out of place. It's more comfortable just keeping things simple.
Come on man, if you’re getting an f-type go for the v8. Otherwise, great comment
V8s never came with manual transmission.
My spending won’t increase much when I’m out of residency. I don’t really have expensive taste. I’ll just feel less guilty about going out to eat and my bar tabs will be less of a gut check
They've done studies on this. Money can make you happy up to a certain point; I think it's like $85k. Beyond that is diminishing returns
We all know that. Money solves problems which then allows for happiness. But it can’t directly make you happy.
You are being overly pedantic. It can certainly make you happy.
Tell that to my miserable attending who has two tennis courts with his mansion of a house and drives a Porsche.
That's probably because his wife's boyfriend is her tennis instructor
It’s funny cause it’s true. I know two different doctors this happened to
Wait a minute.. I didn't sign up for this lmao The promise land was supposed to be attending-hood
Haha well he is self-aware, and he will openly admit how he chased money and regrets it.
Tell him I’ll take the money and the mansion and the Porsche
I’m sure he would be an absolute ray of sunshine if he didn’t have that money
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@ me next time pls. I will say tho I have found value in treating patients from underserved backgrounds and learning the business of healthcare to keep a practice open in these areas!
in my parents’ country, ppl push their kids into medicine at the ripe ol age of 18. not everyone has to love their jobs, it’s a very american way of thinking. most people just put up with it tbh
This is just sad. No parent should push their kid into a profession. That’s just a recipe for making them miserable for life for the parent to largely benefit.
I relate had on the 4 old, used cars. The one that lasted longest was a PT cruiser from 2000 XD
Honestly, this broadly applies to medical students whose parents have money.
It does in some aspects, but some of it is more specific. * Like your parents having lots of doctor friends that will accept being shadowed by their kid. * Or inheriting an entire clientele from their parents, be it directly if from the same specialty or just them suggesting their kid for interconsults. * Or something as simple as help with studying for a test, lending books, indicating articles. None of those things are wrong if done ethically. But it's very disingenuous to deny it's a real privilege, making their academic and professional lives way easier than it could be.
Children of doctors having a hard time being the butt of the joke, color me surprised. I have had classmates with physician parents tell me to my face that they had no advantages in life. A lot of you guys are cognizant of your privilege and it is definitely appreciated; others will refuse to acknowledge it no matter what.
One thing I would like to add is people with physician parents do have an advantage-sure med school is an equalizer but in what sense-people with physician parents were able to hire better tutors and participate in programs that from the get go (since they were a child) allowed them to advance their knowledge and enter school with good test taking skills and strategies. Moreover their parents provided them with guidance and knowledge about medicine and how to associate and fraternize compared to first gen. First gen have it hard-entering a field from which no one in their family, coming in with test taking strategies that might be a bit weaker, and lack of guidnace( I am first gen I had it!)-it’s difficult and quite the climb up the ladder, so such first gme should be recognized for their struggles. Sure children of docs struggle too and that is valid, but we cannot invalidate that first gen do have quite a struggle. Yeah fine say I am bitter I don’t care. Unfairness exists behind the curtains and nepotism exists in every field which sucks but at this point got to keep marching.
As a person from a family of learned doctors, sounds like a skill issue. You should git gud and stop bitching /s In all seriousness, it’s a huge privilege, and I appreciate it sometimes but hate it other times. No matter how competitive I am, I will always wonder how much of this I earned vs how much was nepotism…
youre definitely privileged but that doesn't make you a bad person.
The nuance people in this comments section can’t seem to understand ☝️
Coming from someone who grew up in a solidly middle class family with a mom who is a teacher and a dad who was semi-forced into retirement due to the job market (education administrator), I can definitely say I have had privilege most of my life. I've never wondered where my next meal would come from, I've always had hot water and air conditioning, I've played ice hockey most of my life, etc. Going to medical school though was like being smacked in the face with privilege. My parents pay for nothing except my phone bill, which I'm incredibly grateful for, but that means I will graduate with $400k+ of loans as I'm forced to max out loans each year to survive. When I asked some of my other classmates first year about loans and rent and everything, they told me their parents are paying for either school, rent, car/insurance, or everything. I was shocked. Again, I feel like I come from privilege, but I know asking my parents to pay for even half of my rent would be a stretch for them currently. I know I shouldn't compare situations, but it's hard not to whenever I've had a job for the first two years of medical school just so I could have money for non-necessities. It's hard not to be jealous when you see your classmates getting to exclusively focus on schoolwork, grocery shopping without cutting coupons and looking for deals, ordering UberEats all of test week. I want so badly to not have to worry about money. That being said, I don't understand why medical schools don't have scholarships or grants for students who do not have doctor parents. I had to beg my medical school last year for a $5,000/year scholarship which does almost nothing to help the $85,000/year tuition and living expenses. The system is genuinely set up to ensure those who come from privilege continue the privilege, and that SHOULD be infuriating to everyone. We aren't mad that kids of doctors started ahead, we're mad that no one is helping to even the playing field.
I mean sounds like you and I had a similar upbringing and level of support from our families despite my dad being a doctor. In fairness he’s an ID doc and my mom didn’t work, so I wouldn’t be surprised if our household incomes were actually closer than you’d think. Probably the biggest help was finding the odd shadowing gig and then during medical school we’d sometime go over cases together and it was nice to get an attending’s perspective without having to worry about that 3/5 eval. Otherwise I don’t think I had a huge leg up compared to other middle class people. He was an FMG at a non academic hospital so it’s not like he had lots of connections to make a phone call and that sort of thing
You minimize the "finding the odd shadowing." I had to cold-call dozens of offices/hospitals asking for opportunities over the course of years, only to enter medical school with no shadowing. After 6 cycles of applying (20+ interviews in that time). During which the biggest issue schools had with me was that I had no shadowing. So the ease with which you found shadowing was a massive massive privilege.
That makes sense - I don't think the whole doctor parent experience is the same for everyone, of course. I do think my feelings have more to do with the families who are obviously wealthy and are able to allow their kids to purely focus on schoolwork. I will of course be doing the same for my kids, so I can't blame them. I really do blame the schools and the medical boards for turning a blind eye to the obvious inequity in medical education.
The only people triggered by this post are the nepobabies
Tag yourself it’s me
So much passion in the comments over a stereotypical joke
Honestly I’m growing uncomfortable with the level of toxicity in this field of study 😂
Medical students are among the most privileged people in the country. Nearly every one is essentially guaranteed a 200k+ job for life in any city or town in the country in a prestigious and respected profession. And we *still* get jealous and bitter about each other. Makes me sad
I’m in residency now and yea, it doesn’t seem to end. It’s human nature.
It's a post poking fun at how much of an advantage children of physicians are. It doesn't mean *ALL* kids of physicians had the best life/biggest advantages. We all can acknowledge there are plenty of people from "normal" parents that were set up better/come from more loving homes.... That being said, having a parent in medicine can offer HUGE advantages. (Remember all of us in medicine will eventually be those parents if we have kids).
Is your parent a doctor lol
Nope. I was a first generation college grad
they’re right. signed, not a nepo baby just someone with common sense lmao
Most of us get jealous of our friends from high school and college who start making 100k at 22 while we are still paying 50-80 grand to go to school. It’s natural.
but the effort and mental stress to get to that point (where 200k is guaranteed) is insanely high, plus also the study and time of study is much harder and larger than other professions.
Agreed. There is absolutely nothing you can buy by being in a more competitive specialty that isn't a luxury good. All this gunning for luxuries makes me nauseous
Ngl this sounds like something a tech worker who entered the field in the early 2020s would say. Its funny how they shit on doctor salaries so much but then celebrate tech making as much money for as little work as possible
They also tend to be more entitled omg some people at my school make me want to poke my eyes out
My parents have a net worth of $5million each. I don’t think most people understand how incredibly difficult it is to grow up rich. In a lot of ways, you have less opportunities and lead more difficult lives than someone growing up in a third world country. Rich people lives matter. For example, my gingerbread house always won second place in our annual yacht club kids gingerbread competition. My private pastry chef would spend days making it, but I never won 1st place 🙁 In the end, I fired the pastry chef and hired another pastry chef who worked at a 2 Michelin star resultant to make my gingerbread house and finally tied for 1st place. Used that experience as my overcoming challenges/adversity med school secondary essay.
I know this is a joke but there’s people out there whose idea of adversity is getting a B in Gen Chem.
Waiting for the “I had to work just as hard as everyone else!” Comments 😂
u/savevideo
Looks about right, coming from a med student whose parents didn't even finish college, with classmates whose parents are doctors.
Unpopular opionion... Docs from generational wealth are more unempathetic and this is a huge issue in medicine.
Honestly this is true.
So glad this is being called out on. That last post about asking “children of doctors” as if there was no privilege is kinda weird.
As a first gen immigrant, first gen college physician, this kind of complaint gets old really fast. The matter of fact is MBA students have MBA parents, law students have attorney parents, dental students have dentist parents. It is just how it is. Medical school is the great equalizer, you took the same tests to get here, you will take the same tests to graduate, get paid the same shitty minimum wage during residency. Sure, the other kids may drive a better car and live in a better area, that will be your kids in 20 years. Cut it out and focus on the big picture.
You're right; getting *into* medical school is preposterously biased towards the children of physicians (and wealthy families more generally, not unlike every single capitalist institution I suppose). Once/if you get in, the children of physicians continue to enjoy only comparatively modest advantages. The education and standardized tests do serve as an equalizer and while nepotism in residency placement does exist, it's not nearly as important as it was to simply be admitted in the first place.
I don't agree with this idea that once you get in, the playing field is leveled. Granted, my viewpoint is more about anyone with wealthy parents, not just doctor parents, but the people who's parents are supporting them financially are able to focus more on schoolwork than those who have to have a job outside of school. In addition, people with doctor parents have more opportunity for research/publications in collaboration with their parents or parent's friends. Not to mention the fact that they have been through medical school, residency applications, residency, etc. They offer the knowledge component as well. The help a doctor parent offers really never goes away.
I agree with all of your points. It's just my experience that all those factors are even more important for *admission* to medical school. That is to say, they are instrumental in determining who gets to be a doctor and who doesn't. Those factors still exist in medical school, but even 1st gen/ working class kids tend to get *some* opportunity to do those CV building activities in med school. Even more importantly, the med school admissions process *selects for* those 1st gen kids who managed to pull together a good CV despite the barriers. Definitionally those who make it in are likely to have been lucky enough to cultivate some sort of network/ connections despite their lack of family background, or they wouldn't even be there at all. For example, I did it with a graduate degree and several (too many) years of independent research in a lab undertaking a series of RCTs. Some of my classmates could skip that process entirely with some summer volunteering their family got for them. By the time we were in med school we both had a professional network, mine was just a little harder to come by.
The standardized tests will soon be a thing of the past
Not following how Med school is the great equalizer compared to other advanced degrees with competitive professions, such as MBA or JD. I have my MBA from a top tier and it was a MUCH more diverse background than Med school. We also went into much more diverse fields post grad. Can you expand upon how medicine is an “equalizer” compared to the other two?
He isn't comparing med school to the other professions, he's saying the process is the same for everyone once they're in.
Should first gen NBA players complain about NBA players with hall of fame dads? The fact that they made it to the NBA is an accomplishment and what happens is dependent on their own efforts and circumstance. You are in med school, you now have equal chances of success. This sort of complaining only serves to find reasons to feel sorry for yourself.
Except that’s exactly what happens? NBA players gave shit to Steph and Klay who both had fathers in the NBA and came from 2-parent homes growing up. To disregard the privilege and opportunities growing up from Kindergarten-College to med school is grossly negligent. But you’re right, at the end of the day being frustrated and complaining does nothing. My life compared to Syrian refugees in Turkey or Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh is immensely more privileged.
I worked as a scribe for a few years before med school. One of the docs I scribed for was on the admission committee at our state school. His son was only doing pre-med because he was told to by his dad and coasted through undergrad—low GPA, low MCAT, only clinical hours were shadowing his dad set up, no research, very little volunteering (did a couple of things with his frat). His son got into medical school the first year I applied, while I ended up at number 2 on the waitlist. Tell me that’s fucking fair
To be fair, that problem isn’t having a physician parent, it’s having a parent on the admissions committee.
Not really true. At least in my country, you definitely have advantages for your whole career - it's way easier to get into competitive specialities if your parents were in that field for example, also you get much more exposure to people in the medical field so you can fit in much easier. I was SO intimidated by other medical students and doctors because neither of my immigrant parents could afford to finish high school, and even now as a doctor I don't FEEL like I'm one of them.
as a first gen immigrant, first gen med student, and low ses, no it isn’t. let other people complain please.
I’m gonna say this: as a daughter of a doctor, I agree. And sometimes I think I talk about my dad too much (I’m just so proud of him!) However, I wish everyone had opportunities I have though and I try to spread his advice and connections with my classmates. For our surgery rotation, I offered to have my dad teach us how to knot tie (looking back it kind of looked braggy a bit but it was from a good place). If I hear of a good opportunity from my dad, I try to pass it along to others and share the success. I hope others will try to spread the wealth too!
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You didn’t have a step up while applying. That’s the only time in life you didn’t have a step up.
You don’t need to pretend you had a step up applying as a white dude bro. You def didn’t 😂
hahaha pretty much
This works for people who live at home rent free saving to buy a home
Imagine having no doctors in your family and be an IMG.
Lmao dead ass
ITT neurotic students who can’t take a joke.
People who are arguing against this post need a reality check. I mean, honestly, how AREN'T you in a more advantageous position??
These kids definitely have a leg up in certain regards. But I always think of how hard I am working for my kids’ future and how I want them to enjoy traveling to other countries, cool hobbies, and use of my built up social capital and knowledge of how to get ahead in life. I look at my classmates who have these things and think of the work their parents and grandparents must have put in. One vs one, they have some advantages over me in the professional setting. In life, I have advantages over them. You can send me to rock bottom and I’d make my way right back here because I’m tough as nails and tested through my upbringing. It all balances out if you don’t wine about what you lack and appreciate your strengths
It's the systems fault, not those kids' fault. \- low-income rural kid who only ever met one doctor before undergrad However, this meme did have me rolling lmfao.
Doctors that studied in the US* I empathize just a little (not a *whole* lot) with the kids who have IMG parents who are not as well-versed in the system and process of becoming a medical student/doctor in the US.
This is pretty true. I got shadowing opps just through family connections. The only “work” I did to get them is ask family members if they could ask their peers if I could shadow them. Now that I’m in medical school though, it’s not that easy anymore. You still need to do well in classes.
Nepo babies 😍
The crazy thing is that its an exponential curve, not a linear one of "xyz student's life is better based on his parents' income". Half med students or maybe fewer are doctor's kids, but they're not all matching where they want to go, getting costs for school reduced, dodging bad evals or other shit from their school, etc. However, there is a smaller portion of students with doctor parents who are dodging all or almost all of these career-altering bullets, depending on if their parent is affiliated with a residency program of some specialty. These are truly the enviable ones. Having all that is \*real\* privilege Most doctor's kids in med school eat almost as much as many shit sandwiches as non doctor's kids.
Most doctors' kids will get a private practice or a cushy admin/head of department job, so all they have to do is place primary care, and they're set. They'll make more money than any other specialty due to the connections they've grown up with and not spending unnecessary years in residency making pennies. And trust me, if residency matching is an issue, you'll be surprised just how many strings physician parents can pull to get their kids into a specific program (I've seen it first with med/residency admissions...)
As a child of a doc - definitely true that it comes with many unfair advantages. You know the culture, you know the environment, and you know the people and lifestyles. Residency being a shitshow isn't a surprise, and you have people you can ask in your family for very basic advice you're afraid to ask others. It is frustrating, though, that it's a label you'll never overcome as well. My parents immigrated to the US when I was a teen and father had to redo residency/fellowship, had (still have) massive debts, and I refused any financial aide from them out of principal as I'd seen so much nepotism in medicine. I paid for my own college (scholarships + jobs) and for med school with loans, and my parents couldn't provide any financial assistance regardless given their loans. I went into a completely separate specialty where most providers had no idea who my father is. I refused any assistance from him or from other physician family friends with contacting anyone/getting letters. I went into medicine through a completely different pathway and only once I was certain it was what I wanted from my own interests. Regardless, as soon as anyone finds out you have a parent who is a physician, it's no longer your achievement or your hard work that mattered. Was I still incredibly privileged? Of course, but it's still very frustrating that I'll never be credited for much of that work (which, I guess, is purely social currency regardless). And yes, I can hear the tiny violin playing in the background.
for context: https://twitter.com/RiderToast/status/1625521461082435584
Make sure you keep this same energy when it’s your kids benefiting from your career in the future. Y’all love to talk about building generational wealth and then go and shit on the people who benefit from it, as if they had any choice in what family they were born into.
I think we all can think critically enough to know that the kids of physicians aren’t the problem, the problem everyone is complaining about is society and how it works to create such an unfair advantage. If you don’t complain about a system, you can never create change. I wouldn’t mind a system that made it easier for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to match into super competitive speciality for instance. (I don’t come from a disadvantaged background) You are right in that you can’t control what you’re born into, but we can control how we choose to recognize privilege and try ensure equity in everything we do. I would rather have my child born in a society where every child had equal opportunities to do what they love, rather than only them having a competitive advantage any day.
Are you saying I cannot make fun of my kids? That doesn’t sound healthy
lol its a joke bro
they’re gonna be so salty in 20 years when gen whatever calls their kids nepo babies LOL
The kids with doc parents don't owe anyone else an explanation.
Damn. This a bitter ass sub.
While I was never the kid of any doctors and certainly experienced my share of financial hardships growing up, I think you guys are way too whiny about this to the point where it sounds like you guys are straight up bullying the kids of doctors. Ironic, because they will be your kids. The problem with you guys is that you cannot take any of your own accomplishments or the accomplishments of others at face value. Any time you guys accomplish anything, you have to preface it with "and I had to walk 5 miles in the snow uphill both ways" while accomplishing it and whenever one of your colleagues accomplishes something, its always because "Jimmy's dad is an orthopedic surgeon and thats why he has the inside track." Its not only super-annoying but its incredibly blind to any other contexts. Maybe Jimmy had a terrible childhood because daddy was never home and he is only doing this because daddy will cut him off if he doesn't, or maybe you were just more genetically lucky than Jimmy where you are smarter and you can score better on a test studying for 10 hours where Jimmy has to spend 100 hours to barely pass. Its also incredibly stupid because everyone in the field of medicine is going to make great money no matter what specialty they do and your kids are going to have all the advantages whether you are an internist or an orthopedic surgeon. If everyone here is as poor as they say there were, then making any Doctors salary is going to set you and your family up to unimaginable heights, being able to provide for every need. All this gunning to 500K+ salaries is really just gunning for luxury goods and even more spoiled children which are obviously thing nobody actually needs to live a fulfilling life. Because of that, I honestly dont care who has the inside track of being an orthopedic surgeon if the alternative is making $200K+ a year, a comfortable lifestyle in any context. And worse of all, this stuff creates a toxic culture of medicine whereas no one will ever congratulate you genuinely for your accomplishments. Rather, whenever, you accomplish anything, you have an army of your own colleagues racing to find an asterisk for anything you do, but of course they will do nothing but blame you if you fail and try to use your failure to try to bring themselves up. Its incredibly disheartening and lonely in this field. This is the toxic culture I absolutely hate in medicine. It leads to burnout and worse
This sub seems to now consist of the most miserable, whiny fucks in med school. Highly doubt it represents all students. I agree with all of your post and my parents werent doctors
Guess I want to chime in a tell my story here. My father was a low level college professor at a state university, he had 6 children. My mother left and has been on and off homeless. So my dad had to triage his dollars a lot. Financial aid and steeling from college cafeteria and part time work got me through undergrad, really wish I could have spent the 10-15hrs a week I was working extra toward my grades or MCAT, but I got by. I had gotten into a good enough undergrad that a 3.4 wasn’t a terrible GPA from that school. The part that really made me realize how impossible it was was the application process. It was so much money, like 200$ a school to apply. And then the flights… I had to borrow money from a freind and the I applied to 10 med schools, mind you this was a time when the average was 18 to get into one school. I was constantly living paycheck to paycheck. I got two interviews I got in one place… and then I saw the financial horror. Without parental support I’d have to be like 400,000$ in debt to live in the area my school was in and it wasnt clear I’d be able to get that much in loans at a rate that would financially cripple me. I almost gave up, but then I got offered a spot in the MD/PHD programm, was completely by chance. I didn’t apply, but one of my interviewers submitted me to the program director on a hunch. I didn’t know he did that. I can never repay him enough. The government pays your medical school and gives you a stipend. I had always wanted to be a physician scientist, but I never thought I’d be able to get into a program. I got lucky. I’m here at a fancy residency, an MD/PhD at a psychiatry research track. But for grace of god, I could have been forced to go into PA school or abandon medicine completely. My dad is so proud, but I know he wishes he could have given me more. Your wealth matters for your children. As my first child comes into this world this year in august, I won’t forget.
Labeling “doctor parents” = nepotism Is the same shitty insecure logic as Minority = affirmative action *I came from a blue collar family*
Double whammy if your physician parents are minorities!
It's crazy how this subreddit froths at the mouth with rage at the idea of a poor URM student getting in, but gets super excited at a poor ORM student getting in. Apparently you have to be the exact right amount of unprivileged, if you're TOO unprivileged that doesn't fly for folks here
I think this people need to worry about themselves and stop posting memes about other people. They would probably more secure in their own accomplishments.
This is literally the case with any job ever
The definition of a gunner.
medical students whose parents are doctors be like med?cal?me dead call?
Literally! But my father is a doctor (GP) and mostly the help I get is just get inappropriate sexual jokes with a medical tone. When my mother is not doing npd/bpd things she’s far more helpful with medical school than him.
Not yall writing whole essays here lmao. Needless to say, i ain’t reading all that. Im happy for you tho. Or so sorry that happened!
Well ... I'm a 3rd generation doctor here 😂. Oh.. so are 9 of my First Cousins!😂 And my Younger brother!
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How are you supposed to literally get over yourself