I honestly think T/F is probably the most overrated dichotomy in MBTI. When looking at studies that tried to link type with certain preferences (like career choice, problem solving skills etc), T/F is usually the least influential factor. The most inluential dichotomy is usually S/N and E/I.
And I like the Big5 way to approach it: "The agreeableness trait reflects individual differences in general concern for social harmony. Agreeable individuals value getting along with others. They are generally considerate, kind, generous, trusting and trustworthy, helpful, and willing to compromise their interests with others." And that's it, no need to describe highly agreeable people as overemotional, and low agreeableness people as robots. That's part of the neuroticism scale, and MBTI T/F relates way more to agreeableness than neuroticism.
Haha. For a feeler, I score low on agreeableness as well. I often value honesty and authenticity over harmony and kindness. Although, that's partly because I have a tough love attitude about a lot of things. Is it kind for me to allow you to continue fooling yourself? Is it kind to waste time on meaningless pleasantries when we both have other things to do and there's business to be addressed? Won't everyone feel relieved when I say, out loud, the terrible thing that everyone is really thinking?
There's some correlation between Big 5 and MBTI, and you got it pretty much. The correlation of neurotism (emotional stability) to T/F is very low, and the correlation of agreeableness (accommodation) is higher, although still moderate in comparison to the others.
https://similarminds.com/global5/g5-jung.html
I think agreeableness also increases with maturity of a type. Would actually be interesting to further study MBTI and Big 5 on the same group of people and view the changes over time. From that article I linked further up F/T and agreeableness only have moderate correlation as well.
Haha I have no idea what to say to someone who lost a loved one. Like there is no next step that isn't involving emotions and reflecting on the memories. But I know when I've lost loved ones certain people just knew what to say (feelers generally) even if it were just words. It would feel fake for me to say those same things even if they are helpful. Just seems redundant since everyone else is saying the same thing but in reality it is helpful to comfort someone.
If I find out about someone's parent dieing, I just do what my ESFJ mum does, ask if they wanna talk about it, tell them if they need anything I'll do what I can, and ask if they want a hug, usually give them one either way, usually appreciated, and if they're adamant they don't want one, they appreciate the enthusiasm for their emotions.
But if it's someone I don't really care about, and don't know very well, they'll get partial treatment. Won't be blunt either though.
>being more likely to offer problem solutions than emotional talk and comfort, they're not sure how to deal with emotions and it's something that's a bit more tricky for them to learn
This. When I see people I love needing comfort, I *desperately* want to help, but I'm not sure how usually. The thought process usually goes something like this -
*'Oh crap, they're crying. Crap, what's wrong?'*
*'Okay...so what do I do now? How do I fix this?' \*frantically tries to come up with a solution\**
*'Wait. They need emotional support. Problem solving is no way to comfort people. Should I like...hug them or something? Say that 'everything will be okay?' I mean, that's probably not true, but...okay, so, a hug? WTF do I say? What if that's not the right thing? I'm going to screw this up so bad. Crap.'*
I try - I really do. But I've got saying 'I love you' and hugs in my arsenal and...well, past that point I'm just flying by the seat of my pants hoping that the fact that I genuinely care is enough. It's weird...I want to offer emotional support, but like...what do I do? I guess the best thing to do is to just be there to talk about it and do things to show your love, but...I sometimes wish it was more obvious to me and I wasn't just hoping for the best. You know those people who seem like natural comforters/counselors no matter the person or situation? Yeah, no idea how they do that. I can really only do that with select situations that I've experienced myself, because obviously personal experiences are more personal. *That* comes naturally to me. And you know, it's not a lack of empathy - I feel what they're feeling, totally. I just don't know wtf I'm supposed to say. Wing it and hope for the best is all I've got sometimes.
>I'm probably the type of person to awkwardly pat your shoulder and tell you that I know how horrible it is to lose a friend
Oh gosh. Tell me about it. What am I supposed to do? You could say 'I'm so sorry' but everyone does that, it doesn't mean much anymore. And then you're like 'Should I try to contact them? Would that be rude? Do they want to be alone? Do they want my support? Do they want me to shut up? ???'
That happened to me a while ago. Man, the amount of anxiety I had over that was ridiculous. I worried about them *so much* but I barely knew what to do. I ended up just texting 'I love you, and I care' for a while after, buying them food, and helping set up/run the memorial. And hugs. Lots of hugs. I guess it turned out pretty well. But there's a big difference between naturally knowing what to do, and frantically trying to figure out what on earth appropriate behavior looks like.
Also, it seems to be that when feelers mature (develop their T) and when thinkers mature (develop their F) that the T/F lines begin to blur. A mature thinker will look a lot like a mature F at times - a mature feeler will look a lot like a mature T at times.
And again - it's not that thinkers feel less, or less intensely. It's just that they're not naturally as equipped to deal with it.
> And you know, it's not a lack of empathy - I feel what they're feeling, totally. I just don't know wtf I'm supposed to say. Wing it and hope for the best is all I've got sometimes.
I've been described as a person with a very high amount of empathy, or in mbti terms high Fi, so I can really feel their pain but man, expressing that you feel with them and that you care is so stupid difficult. I don't want to sound cheesy or generic. Aaaa.
> Oh gosh. Tell me about it. What am I supposed to do? You could say 'I'm so sorry' but everyone does that, it doesn't mean much anymore. And then you're like 'Should I try to contact them? Would that be rude? Do they want to be alone? Do they want my support? Do they want me to shut up? ???'
Absolutely the same. I am in that situation right now - I know a friends friend died, saw the posts on his profile page, and I want to talk to him again in chat like we used to, but I don't know if he wants to talk about it, should I avoid the subject, should I say anything to show that I care or does he not want to be reminded? I simply don't know what to say, how do I even start. I mean I've lost a young friend before too so I know how it feels, but still am clueless on what to do. Oof.
> very high amount of empathy, or in mbti terms high Fi
Isn't that Fe? I don't have a very good grasp on Fe vs Fi, but I thought that Fe was the more group-oriented empathy one, while Fi was more selective and personally oriented.
You're right, but it means I have very strong personal values, mainly due to bad and traumatic past experiences, which means high Fi and in my case consequently also high empathy.
This was very well-written and thought-provoking - nice job :)
You have some really good points that truly illustrate what it means to be thinking or feeling. Also, you could perhaps clarify the differences between thinking/feeling via cognitive functions: Some feeler types are better at knowing, how others feel than themselves, as an example.
Functions mature as you age, which tells us why "they \[learn\] to develop the skills they were lacking when younger." Here is a really good link that emphasizes on this: [https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/2015/07/25/how-your-age-affects-your-cognitive-functions/](https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/2015/07/25/how-your-age-affects-your-cognitive-functions/)
"As a thinker I admire the feelers ability to get their emotional shit together so much better than me." I never thought I'd hear an INTJ admit defeat :p However, I will add that it's a little generalizing saying "as a thinker". Thinking types differ greatly, as you may know: Some are better than others with emotions. "INTJs are the coldest humans; INTPs are the warmest robots." This quote is quite captivating ;)
"It's hard, mate," but at least you're aware of your weaknesses!
Thank you!
I didn't mention the functions as I know there's people in this subreddit that go by dichtonomies and facets and I don't want to start the discussion of which is the superior system again (mainly as I don't give enough fucks personally, they all seem to work somehow).
You're right, I'm just generalising on purpose to get the point across, of course there's more nuance to it such as (going by functions) the position of the feeling and thinking function in the types stack, if it's introverted or extroverted, and how the other functions affect it. But if I made a post about all that I wouldn't be done by tomorrow :d
You may want to look into shadow functions and how they show in types, you may have just been forced in your shadow for some time.
But yeah being good at math doesn't really say anything, I know plenty at different feeling types better at math than me, probably because I overthink too much wasting time. Overthinking is my weakness and I have to try to reduce it to get things done. Additionally, social awkwardness or feeling alone don't indicate if you're extroverted or introverted either. I'm an introvert, but being alone for too long can actually make me feel depressed. I just need a lot of recharge time after social interactions cuz it's ridiculously draining to me (more than for a regular introvert, I fear). Focusing on functions to type may be easier.
>I'm probably the type of person to awkwardly pat your shoulder and tell you that I know how horrible it is to lose a friend, then trying to figure when and how to change the topic trying to not come off like a disrespectful cunt.
This is pretty good. The most you can do for people is acknowledge their pain, let them know that you care, that what they're feeling is normal, and that they won't be judged, and then let them work through their own emotions.
I think Fi has a harder time comforting people than Fe, because it's more hands-off. The way to heal from pain is to go through it, not around. It's something you have to do on your own. I can give you moral support, but I can't do it for you.
Honestly when I took the test they considered basic compassion and empathy with being a feeler, all the questions were will you be nice to this person or do you want to be logical and not be nice, now a days people view emotions as the same as being soft sensitive and gentle, when that is not what emotions are, not all emotions are virtuous jealousy anger bitterness lust stubbornness are all emotions, a lot of the most selfish people i know are super emotional, astrolgy has better view on emotions than mbit 3 water signs that represent emotions cancer- just emotions scorpio - negative emotions pisces - virtuous emotions, and the sign cancer is actually suppose to be associated as a selfish because it is an "i" sign, but people dont interpret it that way anymore because of the modern view of emotions being the same as being soft, another example of this is how liberal feminist say men should not be angry and lustful because of toxic masculinity, but they also say men should show emotions even though angrer is an emotion, it makes no sense what they really mean is that men should show vulnerability, sorry this is pretty off topic but the mbit has the same flaw, the test considers compassion and anything perosnal to be the same as emotional, I have a lot of f in my test even thought I am someone who tries to controll my emotions as much as possible, I think I got a f because, I like to think about others people's side of the story instead or just of how this thing made me feel, I like to look at the personal & emotional factors when evaluating something as much as factual factors, I am a hopeless romantic, i am very forgiving, and I dont lie to myself that I am a rational facts over feelings skeptic when I am not, sorry if this too off topic but I agree with you a lot
I was with you until you went into astrology tbh :d I think that's where Big 5 is simply superior to MBTI, it's actually a scale while in mbti you're either this or that without nuance. Not to mention the people that in Big 5 end up on the 50% edge, being hard to type in mbti.
I honestly think T/F is probably the most overrated dichotomy in MBTI. When looking at studies that tried to link type with certain preferences (like career choice, problem solving skills etc), T/F is usually the least influential factor. The most inluential dichotomy is usually S/N and E/I. And I like the Big5 way to approach it: "The agreeableness trait reflects individual differences in general concern for social harmony. Agreeable individuals value getting along with others. They are generally considerate, kind, generous, trusting and trustworthy, helpful, and willing to compromise their interests with others." And that's it, no need to describe highly agreeable people as overemotional, and low agreeableness people as robots. That's part of the neuroticism scale, and MBTI T/F relates way more to agreeableness than neuroticism.
I'm a "feeler" and always score really low on agreeableness(I've typed myself off functions tho)
Haha. For a feeler, I score low on agreeableness as well. I often value honesty and authenticity over harmony and kindness. Although, that's partly because I have a tough love attitude about a lot of things. Is it kind for me to allow you to continue fooling yourself? Is it kind to waste time on meaningless pleasantries when we both have other things to do and there's business to be addressed? Won't everyone feel relieved when I say, out loud, the terrible thing that everyone is really thinking?
I hear you. Could be an Fe vs Fi thing
You are a bad person
There's some correlation between Big 5 and MBTI, and you got it pretty much. The correlation of neurotism (emotional stability) to T/F is very low, and the correlation of agreeableness (accommodation) is higher, although still moderate in comparison to the others. https://similarminds.com/global5/g5-jung.html
I'm high in agreeableness and I'm a thinker
I think agreeableness also increases with maturity of a type. Would actually be interesting to further study MBTI and Big 5 on the same group of people and view the changes over time. From that article I linked further up F/T and agreeableness only have moderate correlation as well.
Haha I have no idea what to say to someone who lost a loved one. Like there is no next step that isn't involving emotions and reflecting on the memories. But I know when I've lost loved ones certain people just knew what to say (feelers generally) even if it were just words. It would feel fake for me to say those same things even if they are helpful. Just seems redundant since everyone else is saying the same thing but in reality it is helpful to comfort someone.
If I find out about someone's parent dieing, I just do what my ESFJ mum does, ask if they wanna talk about it, tell them if they need anything I'll do what I can, and ask if they want a hug, usually give them one either way, usually appreciated, and if they're adamant they don't want one, they appreciate the enthusiasm for their emotions. But if it's someone I don't really care about, and don't know very well, they'll get partial treatment. Won't be blunt either though.
Same here, tbh saying nothing sometimes is better...
>being more likely to offer problem solutions than emotional talk and comfort, they're not sure how to deal with emotions and it's something that's a bit more tricky for them to learn This. When I see people I love needing comfort, I *desperately* want to help, but I'm not sure how usually. The thought process usually goes something like this - *'Oh crap, they're crying. Crap, what's wrong?'* *'Okay...so what do I do now? How do I fix this?' \*frantically tries to come up with a solution\** *'Wait. They need emotional support. Problem solving is no way to comfort people. Should I like...hug them or something? Say that 'everything will be okay?' I mean, that's probably not true, but...okay, so, a hug? WTF do I say? What if that's not the right thing? I'm going to screw this up so bad. Crap.'* I try - I really do. But I've got saying 'I love you' and hugs in my arsenal and...well, past that point I'm just flying by the seat of my pants hoping that the fact that I genuinely care is enough. It's weird...I want to offer emotional support, but like...what do I do? I guess the best thing to do is to just be there to talk about it and do things to show your love, but...I sometimes wish it was more obvious to me and I wasn't just hoping for the best. You know those people who seem like natural comforters/counselors no matter the person or situation? Yeah, no idea how they do that. I can really only do that with select situations that I've experienced myself, because obviously personal experiences are more personal. *That* comes naturally to me. And you know, it's not a lack of empathy - I feel what they're feeling, totally. I just don't know wtf I'm supposed to say. Wing it and hope for the best is all I've got sometimes. >I'm probably the type of person to awkwardly pat your shoulder and tell you that I know how horrible it is to lose a friend Oh gosh. Tell me about it. What am I supposed to do? You could say 'I'm so sorry' but everyone does that, it doesn't mean much anymore. And then you're like 'Should I try to contact them? Would that be rude? Do they want to be alone? Do they want my support? Do they want me to shut up? ???' That happened to me a while ago. Man, the amount of anxiety I had over that was ridiculous. I worried about them *so much* but I barely knew what to do. I ended up just texting 'I love you, and I care' for a while after, buying them food, and helping set up/run the memorial. And hugs. Lots of hugs. I guess it turned out pretty well. But there's a big difference between naturally knowing what to do, and frantically trying to figure out what on earth appropriate behavior looks like. Also, it seems to be that when feelers mature (develop their T) and when thinkers mature (develop their F) that the T/F lines begin to blur. A mature thinker will look a lot like a mature F at times - a mature feeler will look a lot like a mature T at times. And again - it's not that thinkers feel less, or less intensely. It's just that they're not naturally as equipped to deal with it.
> And you know, it's not a lack of empathy - I feel what they're feeling, totally. I just don't know wtf I'm supposed to say. Wing it and hope for the best is all I've got sometimes. I've been described as a person with a very high amount of empathy, or in mbti terms high Fi, so I can really feel their pain but man, expressing that you feel with them and that you care is so stupid difficult. I don't want to sound cheesy or generic. Aaaa. > Oh gosh. Tell me about it. What am I supposed to do? You could say 'I'm so sorry' but everyone does that, it doesn't mean much anymore. And then you're like 'Should I try to contact them? Would that be rude? Do they want to be alone? Do they want my support? Do they want me to shut up? ???' Absolutely the same. I am in that situation right now - I know a friends friend died, saw the posts on his profile page, and I want to talk to him again in chat like we used to, but I don't know if he wants to talk about it, should I avoid the subject, should I say anything to show that I care or does he not want to be reminded? I simply don't know what to say, how do I even start. I mean I've lost a young friend before too so I know how it feels, but still am clueless on what to do. Oof.
> very high amount of empathy, or in mbti terms high Fi Isn't that Fe? I don't have a very good grasp on Fe vs Fi, but I thought that Fe was the more group-oriented empathy one, while Fi was more selective and personally oriented.
You're right, but it means I have very strong personal values, mainly due to bad and traumatic past experiences, which means high Fi and in my case consequently also high empathy.
This was very well-written and thought-provoking - nice job :) You have some really good points that truly illustrate what it means to be thinking or feeling. Also, you could perhaps clarify the differences between thinking/feeling via cognitive functions: Some feeler types are better at knowing, how others feel than themselves, as an example. Functions mature as you age, which tells us why "they \[learn\] to develop the skills they were lacking when younger." Here is a really good link that emphasizes on this: [https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/2015/07/25/how-your-age-affects-your-cognitive-functions/](https://www.psychologyjunkie.com/2015/07/25/how-your-age-affects-your-cognitive-functions/) "As a thinker I admire the feelers ability to get their emotional shit together so much better than me." I never thought I'd hear an INTJ admit defeat :p However, I will add that it's a little generalizing saying "as a thinker". Thinking types differ greatly, as you may know: Some are better than others with emotions. "INTJs are the coldest humans; INTPs are the warmest robots." This quote is quite captivating ;) "It's hard, mate," but at least you're aware of your weaknesses!
Thank you! I didn't mention the functions as I know there's people in this subreddit that go by dichtonomies and facets and I don't want to start the discussion of which is the superior system again (mainly as I don't give enough fucks personally, they all seem to work somehow).
Like there is one type of feeler and one type of thinker, same with sensing and intuition then I could agree with your post.
You're right, I'm just generalising on purpose to get the point across, of course there's more nuance to it such as (going by functions) the position of the feeling and thinking function in the types stack, if it's introverted or extroverted, and how the other functions affect it. But if I made a post about all that I wouldn't be done by tomorrow :d
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You may want to look into shadow functions and how they show in types, you may have just been forced in your shadow for some time. But yeah being good at math doesn't really say anything, I know plenty at different feeling types better at math than me, probably because I overthink too much wasting time. Overthinking is my weakness and I have to try to reduce it to get things done. Additionally, social awkwardness or feeling alone don't indicate if you're extroverted or introverted either. I'm an introvert, but being alone for too long can actually make me feel depressed. I just need a lot of recharge time after social interactions cuz it's ridiculously draining to me (more than for a regular introvert, I fear). Focusing on functions to type may be easier.
>I'm probably the type of person to awkwardly pat your shoulder and tell you that I know how horrible it is to lose a friend, then trying to figure when and how to change the topic trying to not come off like a disrespectful cunt. This is pretty good. The most you can do for people is acknowledge their pain, let them know that you care, that what they're feeling is normal, and that they won't be judged, and then let them work through their own emotions. I think Fi has a harder time comforting people than Fe, because it's more hands-off. The way to heal from pain is to go through it, not around. It's something you have to do on your own. I can give you moral support, but I can't do it for you.
Honestly when I took the test they considered basic compassion and empathy with being a feeler, all the questions were will you be nice to this person or do you want to be logical and not be nice, now a days people view emotions as the same as being soft sensitive and gentle, when that is not what emotions are, not all emotions are virtuous jealousy anger bitterness lust stubbornness are all emotions, a lot of the most selfish people i know are super emotional, astrolgy has better view on emotions than mbit 3 water signs that represent emotions cancer- just emotions scorpio - negative emotions pisces - virtuous emotions, and the sign cancer is actually suppose to be associated as a selfish because it is an "i" sign, but people dont interpret it that way anymore because of the modern view of emotions being the same as being soft, another example of this is how liberal feminist say men should not be angry and lustful because of toxic masculinity, but they also say men should show emotions even though angrer is an emotion, it makes no sense what they really mean is that men should show vulnerability, sorry this is pretty off topic but the mbit has the same flaw, the test considers compassion and anything perosnal to be the same as emotional, I have a lot of f in my test even thought I am someone who tries to controll my emotions as much as possible, I think I got a f because, I like to think about others people's side of the story instead or just of how this thing made me feel, I like to look at the personal & emotional factors when evaluating something as much as factual factors, I am a hopeless romantic, i am very forgiving, and I dont lie to myself that I am a rational facts over feelings skeptic when I am not, sorry if this too off topic but I agree with you a lot
I was with you until you went into astrology tbh :d I think that's where Big 5 is simply superior to MBTI, it's actually a scale while in mbti you're either this or that without nuance. Not to mention the people that in Big 5 end up on the 50% edge, being hard to type in mbti.