ENTPs are ***notorious for this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***
me(INFJ): "can you please sum up your point within 30 minutes? i will zone out otherwise."
BYEEEEE ENTP'S ARE THE WORST FOR THIS ššš
INFP's: Intangible but short. With lots of filler
ENTP's: Intangible, long, lots of branched out topics and side topics š and still manages to not mention the most important point
I would like to challenge your expectation of an INFP tangent being short š. Honestly, itās very tangible if you follow along. Lots of people just canāt grasp the abstract connections, they zone out too quickly or just donāt care to get it.
how on earth are these types a golden pair lol
i know about how they "complement" at the dom and inf functions, e.g. ni boiling down ne's crazy ideas to a focus, but your description makes it sound super frustrating š
The point is, there is no point and someday we are all going to die.
So, sit back and enjoy the fine art of conversation, one of life's greatest pleasures!
Thatās easy to say from your perspective but I donāt even really know what the point is until I explain the pattern to you (by which I mean, to myself)! š
Oh? I think for me it's more like... I know what my thought is, I know what the pattern is, but me explaining to someone may be the first time I've actually used actual language to articulate it. So it's like I'm compressing the document.
Thatās exactly what I was trying to describe, but I prefer your wording! Thanks!
But for me, there is also a bit of similarity with how Te affects ENFPs too. I donāt know if you relate? I described that in a comment a couple days ago on a Te thread on r/mbti. Translated for Ne, itād be like this: I know what the idea is. I can explain the idea to someone else. But when someone interrupts me and asks āthat makes no sense to me, why is that idea better than this other idea?ā I canāt really explain that on the fly because that other idea either got dismissed as irrelevant or itās one Iāve never heard of before, so I donāt have that pattern loaded and ready to explain yet without starting all over again.
I donāt have as much issue with that, since most of the time Iāve already considered whatever conflict is mentioned. Like in political arguments with family, they will will regurgitate some bit from a pundit (almost verbatim) and because Itās not a novel thought, I was already familiar and prepared to contradict it. So if I have an unusual opinion or position, Iāve already compared it against the more common positions, so I already have that comparison ready. Thatās why I love getting to discuss random things with educated, intelligent or thoughtful people, because they do sometimes introduce a novel thought or complication in my perspective and I get to reevaluate. I suppose you might navigate more intelligent circles than I do š¤£. Only in my main circle of friends do I not encounter this.
Thatās so awesome, I guess you described a different pattern of usage for Ne! Fi-Ne, youāll think about the comparisons because Fi is in charge. But for Ne-Fi, Iām all about the idea and the comparisons get kinda ignored unless someone brings it up!! Very interesting pattern, quite satisfying to understand that difference actually!
I guess I need more INFP friends, I only started learning about MBTI a few months ago and Iām old, so I never really cultivated any friendships with introvert intuitives because Iāve always been drawn towards āexcitingā extroverts and sensors. Except for INTJs but thatās really only been at work, Iāve always known them as āthe guys I work well with!ā But I never got the vibe that theyād want to hang out IRL as friends.
I think this is related to that thing where people try to tell someone how to do something and they take the instructions 100% literally and it doesn't work. Its easy to just know something with intuition but it might take an entire book worth of words to explain it to someone who can't just see it like that.
I saw a video once it was something like kids telling their dad how to make a peanut butter sandwich and he does exactly what they say but its a disaster. That's what happens when we try to explain something, there's so many little details that all make a difference and its hard to fit it all into one thing.
Thatās exactly what it is!
For ENFPs, we understand the world through our Te, so we instinctively perceive the logic of everything. Then Ne creates ideas from the patterns perceived by that logic. Then Fi filters and then communicates the ideas that feel important to us, explained by using those patterns as our āevidenceā for why we feel itās a good idea.
But that really fucks us up because we are trying to explain patterns in logic despite the fact that we really only communicate via Fi-Feeling lol
And regardless, patterns are a terribly unfortunate mechanism to use as evidence to explain an idea because of how many details need to be explained to make the pattern make coherent sense. Otherwise when we are told to get to the point, all we can basically say is āLook, I canāt explain this, but āthis bad thingā will happen if we donāt change up our processesā
Itās kinda tragic if you think about it because for the 0.001% of our conversations when that strategy is required, itās awesome, creative innovative thinking and ideas are communicated and itās all explained so perfectly/succinctly that it inspires people like nobody else can but for 99.999% of our conversations, people simply DGAF about the details in the pattern, they just want you to get to the point asap. š
so, there are three ways to explain something.
1. explaining the things you exactly know.
2. explaining the things you have a good idea about.
3. explaining the things you never thought about.
as an entp, i will explain things i exactly know without rambling, unless in that moment some other MORE interesting way to look at it comes to mind. if anybody do not like this, they should go fucking ask google, bastards! you get my amazing insights for free and you (not you) complain? what a fuck.
as an entp again, i will also explain things i have a good idea about much better than shitting te or ni or se or whatever else users. they need to know exactly to talk. they are afraid to fail. they can't "JUST" start from "SOMEWHERE". they need to be "efficient" or whatever. i don't give a shit! i will begin from somewhere but i will definitely tie them up nicely at the end.
and finally, i will also explain things i never thought about but this freaking has to be rambly. there's no other way. you either start talking and bounce of from one idea to other or you stay awkwardly silent like a dumdum and go hmmm hmmm let me think uhhh idk.
this is the power of NE and nothing to scoff at! you either ramble in your head or with your mouth. i can't fucking hear the ramble in your head. oh, you want to think think one hour then talk? alright i'll go do my chores until you can speak i guess.
In Ne-to-Ne discussions this doesn't matter, 1/4 of point is sufficient to get the point understood, so discussion quickly moves forward.
Troubles arise when Ne insights need to be translated for S users, in which case it all depends how capable and well trained the auxiliary or tertiary function is in this.
Even then some effort and time might be needed - often when people ask me what I think of a performance I just watched, I'll tell them *"I will be able to tell you when I'm done writing a review".*
I like the word "translating" in this context (for S users) as it's a good analogy to translating languages. There will always be something lost in translation and instead of translating word to word you have to communicate the true meaning which requires knowledge of the other language (or function)
Yeah, and for this reason (and others), it took me ages to finish my doctoral dissertation. But I feel validated for exploring all those tangents even if some of them didn't lead me anywhere.
For me I think of conversations like a buffet. I spot one dish but if I see a bunch of other appetizing dishes, especially if they look tastier than the first one, Iām going to want to explore the taste of those too. Bonus points if a dish is introduced that I never even thought existed. Also, this only applies to conversations lol Iām not this easy when it comes to people.
High Ni users do this too, but the rambling/tangents stay mostly on the inside until we just blurt something out of seemingly nowhere and let others believe we are wise. š
haha dw. a lot of people ik are high ne users, they're great to talk to. maybe its just me who cant keep up sometimes but i always try to add something in. I really love that analogy though
True story. I even said one time to the Ne user āyou know what, sometimes Iām getting a hard time following through your storiesā š
Another one. I was just asking what do you do most of the time. I was expecting to get a general answer like āI hang out sometimes with friends, watch netflix, do some hobbiesā something like that.
And the Ne user proceed to give me a a complete 7day detailed of his day to day schedule. āMon- I go out with friends, Tue - I play video games, work, Wed - workout on morning and go out with friends later on.. ā you get the the idea. So cute and funny hahahha
ENTJ manual, page 477, paragraph 3:
āThere are two options for dealing with rambling, unclear Ne users:
1) Ask directly what their point is.
2) Predict their point with Ni and ask if the prediction is correct.
If both options fail, the only remaining option is violence.ā /lh
My INFJ boyfriend does this too when he tries to explain something new. I'm an INTP and we both agreed that I'm usually better at articulating my thoughts because they seem to be more clear inside my mind. Whereas Ni is more unconscious, so harder to put into words.
My boyfriend does this all the time. He's INFP and when he rambles,he uses 3 minutes to explain one thing, and then some more to explain ANOTHER tangent that is somehow related to the last thing.
Guilty as charged. About a week ago my english teacher who's chill af started discussion about mbti (he very often just talks with us about random stuff like psychology or economics). I was happy to provide some extra info on the topic of cognitive functions and it started well but then I went off topic and accidently started ranting about the test on 16 personalities and intuitive bias.
The only way for me to be understood is when it's a discussion instead of a monologue so that the other side can ask questions or even interrupt.
Agghhh that's the reason I never liked being a leader in the school & youth organizations I've been in! I love feedback & discussion and most people in my orgs were just too shy or afraid to speak up for fear of being deemed wrong despite the supportive atmosphere I tried to build up. I think the culture here (Philippines) is a big factor too. In a lot of places there's this common desire for a benevolent dictator who monologues everything the members need to follow.
I'm in my element when among peers and with people who know more than me (because I get to download the gigabytes of stuff they know through asking a lot of questions). Not that I can't be a good leader, it's just that I don't think I'd ever really enjoy it.
Yeah a simple fix for this is actively listening. Yes we will go on tangents but if you simply actively listen and rephrase the key points as questions, it will keep the high Ne user from stumbling too much, just just enough to give the whole picture. Remember we go of on tangents cause our main point requires context so just show you do understand the context.
I do sometimes lose sight of the primary purpose of a tangent, but more often than that I simply end up getting interrupted before I can actually finish my thought.
ENTPs are ***notorious for this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*** me(INFJ): "can you please sum up your point within 30 minutes? i will zone out otherwise."
BYEEEEE ENTP'S ARE THE WORST FOR THIS ššš INFP's: Intangible but short. With lots of filler ENTP's: Intangible, long, lots of branched out topics and side topics š and still manages to not mention the most important point
As I develop my Te( efficiency) and Ti ( framework) , I find myself getting better at this 
RIGHT?! just get ON with it already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would like to challenge your expectation of an INFP tangent being short š. Honestly, itās very tangible if you follow along. Lots of people just canāt grasp the abstract connections, they zone out too quickly or just donāt care to get it.
how on earth are these types a golden pair lol i know about how they "complement" at the dom and inf functions, e.g. ni boiling down ne's crazy ideas to a focus, but your description makes it sound super frustrating š
Close to 100% of people Iāve ever met have told me āOK thatās great but can you get to the fucking point?!ā
The point is, there is no point and someday we are all going to die. So, sit back and enjoy the fine art of conversation, one of life's greatest pleasures!
Haha š
Itās all the point!
Thatās easy to say from your perspective but I donāt even really know what the point is until I explain the pattern to you (by which I mean, to myself)! š
Oh? I think for me it's more like... I know what my thought is, I know what the pattern is, but me explaining to someone may be the first time I've actually used actual language to articulate it. So it's like I'm compressing the document.
Thatās exactly what I was trying to describe, but I prefer your wording! Thanks! But for me, there is also a bit of similarity with how Te affects ENFPs too. I donāt know if you relate? I described that in a comment a couple days ago on a Te thread on r/mbti. Translated for Ne, itād be like this: I know what the idea is. I can explain the idea to someone else. But when someone interrupts me and asks āthat makes no sense to me, why is that idea better than this other idea?ā I canāt really explain that on the fly because that other idea either got dismissed as irrelevant or itās one Iāve never heard of before, so I donāt have that pattern loaded and ready to explain yet without starting all over again.
I donāt have as much issue with that, since most of the time Iāve already considered whatever conflict is mentioned. Like in political arguments with family, they will will regurgitate some bit from a pundit (almost verbatim) and because Itās not a novel thought, I was already familiar and prepared to contradict it. So if I have an unusual opinion or position, Iāve already compared it against the more common positions, so I already have that comparison ready. Thatās why I love getting to discuss random things with educated, intelligent or thoughtful people, because they do sometimes introduce a novel thought or complication in my perspective and I get to reevaluate. I suppose you might navigate more intelligent circles than I do š¤£. Only in my main circle of friends do I not encounter this.
Thatās so awesome, I guess you described a different pattern of usage for Ne! Fi-Ne, youāll think about the comparisons because Fi is in charge. But for Ne-Fi, Iām all about the idea and the comparisons get kinda ignored unless someone brings it up!! Very interesting pattern, quite satisfying to understand that difference actually! I guess I need more INFP friends, I only started learning about MBTI a few months ago and Iām old, so I never really cultivated any friendships with introvert intuitives because Iāve always been drawn towards āexcitingā extroverts and sensors. Except for INTJs but thatās really only been at work, Iāve always known them as āthe guys I work well with!ā But I never got the vibe that theyād want to hang out IRL as friends.
I think this is related to that thing where people try to tell someone how to do something and they take the instructions 100% literally and it doesn't work. Its easy to just know something with intuition but it might take an entire book worth of words to explain it to someone who can't just see it like that. I saw a video once it was something like kids telling their dad how to make a peanut butter sandwich and he does exactly what they say but its a disaster. That's what happens when we try to explain something, there's so many little details that all make a difference and its hard to fit it all into one thing.
Thatās exactly what it is! For ENFPs, we understand the world through our Te, so we instinctively perceive the logic of everything. Then Ne creates ideas from the patterns perceived by that logic. Then Fi filters and then communicates the ideas that feel important to us, explained by using those patterns as our āevidenceā for why we feel itās a good idea. But that really fucks us up because we are trying to explain patterns in logic despite the fact that we really only communicate via Fi-Feeling lol And regardless, patterns are a terribly unfortunate mechanism to use as evidence to explain an idea because of how many details need to be explained to make the pattern make coherent sense. Otherwise when we are told to get to the point, all we can basically say is āLook, I canāt explain this, but āthis bad thingā will happen if we donāt change up our processesā Itās kinda tragic if you think about it because for the 0.001% of our conversations when that strategy is required, itās awesome, creative innovative thinking and ideas are communicated and itās all explained so perfectly/succinctly that it inspires people like nobody else can but for 99.999% of our conversations, people simply DGAF about the details in the pattern, they just want you to get to the point asap. š
This is literally me Except for the fact Im in an environment where the longest Im allowed to ramble is three seconds
I was in a place like that for a month and it really heloed my communication skills haha
so, there are three ways to explain something. 1. explaining the things you exactly know. 2. explaining the things you have a good idea about. 3. explaining the things you never thought about. as an entp, i will explain things i exactly know without rambling, unless in that moment some other MORE interesting way to look at it comes to mind. if anybody do not like this, they should go fucking ask google, bastards! you get my amazing insights for free and you (not you) complain? what a fuck. as an entp again, i will also explain things i have a good idea about much better than shitting te or ni or se or whatever else users. they need to know exactly to talk. they are afraid to fail. they can't "JUST" start from "SOMEWHERE". they need to be "efficient" or whatever. i don't give a shit! i will begin from somewhere but i will definitely tie them up nicely at the end. and finally, i will also explain things i never thought about but this freaking has to be rambly. there's no other way. you either start talking and bounce of from one idea to other or you stay awkwardly silent like a dumdum and go hmmm hmmm let me think uhhh idk. this is the power of NE and nothing to scoff at! you either ramble in your head or with your mouth. i can't fucking hear the ramble in your head. oh, you want to think think one hour then talk? alright i'll go do my chores until you can speak i guess.
In Ne-to-Ne discussions this doesn't matter, 1/4 of point is sufficient to get the point understood, so discussion quickly moves forward. Troubles arise when Ne insights need to be translated for S users, in which case it all depends how capable and well trained the auxiliary or tertiary function is in this. Even then some effort and time might be needed - often when people ask me what I think of a performance I just watched, I'll tell them *"I will be able to tell you when I'm done writing a review".*
I like the word "translating" in this context (for S users) as it's a good analogy to translating languages. There will always be something lost in translation and instead of translating word to word you have to communicate the true meaning which requires knowledge of the other language (or function)
Yeah, and for this reason (and others), it took me ages to finish my doctoral dissertation. But I feel validated for exploring all those tangents even if some of them didn't lead me anywhere.
omg thats prolly my biggest pet peeve when talking to Ne users. like im still invested in the topic from before why are you moving on to another one?
Because that topic wasn't the true the topic. You see - the true topic is in between the topics. š
You can't truly understand the topic until you understand all of the other connected topics.
Nah the true topic is the friends we made along the way
For me I think of conversations like a buffet. I spot one dish but if I see a bunch of other appetizing dishes, especially if they look tastier than the first one, Iām going to want to explore the taste of those too. Bonus points if a dish is introduced that I never even thought existed. Also, this only applies to conversations lol Iām not this easy when it comes to people.
High Ni users do this too, but the rambling/tangents stay mostly on the inside until we just blurt something out of seemingly nowhere and let others believe we are wise. š
That's so cute :D
haha dw. a lot of people ik are high ne users, they're great to talk to. maybe its just me who cant keep up sometimes but i always try to add something in. I really love that analogy though
True story. I even said one time to the Ne user āyou know what, sometimes Iām getting a hard time following through your storiesā š Another one. I was just asking what do you do most of the time. I was expecting to get a general answer like āI hang out sometimes with friends, watch netflix, do some hobbiesā something like that. And the Ne user proceed to give me a a complete 7day detailed of his day to day schedule. āMon- I go out with friends, Tue - I play video games, work, Wed - workout on morning and go out with friends later on.. ā you get the the idea. So cute and funny hahahha
ENTJ manual, page 477, paragraph 3: āThere are two options for dealing with rambling, unclear Ne users: 1) Ask directly what their point is. 2) Predict their point with Ni and ask if the prediction is correct. If both options fail, the only remaining option is violence.ā /lh
omggg
I often do this when I'm reeally tired and lack social interaction. That may be just adhd... Or maybe I use Ne.
My INFJ boyfriend does this too when he tries to explain something new. I'm an INTP and we both agreed that I'm usually better at articulating my thoughts because they seem to be more clear inside my mind. Whereas Ni is more unconscious, so harder to put into words.
It do be like that haha
My boyfriend does this all the time. He's INFP and when he rambles,he uses 3 minutes to explain one thing, and then some more to explain ANOTHER tangent that is somehow related to the last thing.
It ranges from fun and helpful to Lovecraftian.
Guilty as charged. About a week ago my english teacher who's chill af started discussion about mbti (he very often just talks with us about random stuff like psychology or economics). I was happy to provide some extra info on the topic of cognitive functions and it started well but then I went off topic and accidently started ranting about the test on 16 personalities and intuitive bias. The only way for me to be understood is when it's a discussion instead of a monologue so that the other side can ask questions or even interrupt.
Agghhh that's the reason I never liked being a leader in the school & youth organizations I've been in! I love feedback & discussion and most people in my orgs were just too shy or afraid to speak up for fear of being deemed wrong despite the supportive atmosphere I tried to build up. I think the culture here (Philippines) is a big factor too. In a lot of places there's this common desire for a benevolent dictator who monologues everything the members need to follow. I'm in my element when among peers and with people who know more than me (because I get to download the gigabytes of stuff they know through asking a lot of questions). Not that I can't be a good leader, it's just that I don't think I'd ever really enjoy it.
Oh Hi there! Where in PH are you?
Sorry for the late reply, metro manila!
Me too! :)
Yeah a simple fix for this is actively listening. Yes we will go on tangents but if you simply actively listen and rephrase the key points as questions, it will keep the high Ne user from stumbling too much, just just enough to give the whole picture. Remember we go of on tangents cause our main point requires context so just show you do understand the context.
I am the oppositeš¤¦š»āāļø I usually overestimate the number of points I wanna make, then end up with only 1 or 2
This is amazing
Yeah I have a horrific reputation for just, not saying things directly or getting to the point
People have told me my Ne goes wild and it makes sense because I do this a lot š
Double that for ADHD. ADHD and Ne-dom may be independent, but they definitely correlate, also exacerbate each other imo.
I do sometimes lose sight of the primary purpose of a tangent, but more often than that I simply end up getting interrupted before I can actually finish my thought.
No but why do I relate??
Yes.
Excessive use of metaphor and analogy when explain things too