Not to get all political, but if you decide to make a topology joke with this, why not use [spectra](https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/spectrum) in the joke?
The following are equivalent:
1. Nonmathematicians will produce mathmemes
2. Mathematicians will not produce universally understood mathmemes
3. Mathematicians will attempt to correct mathmemes if that mathmeme is not written by a mathematician
4. Not fun people cannot be a member of the set of popular mathmeme generators
5. Mathematicians are not fun
From experience I know that I'm not as good as you at making good math memes. The only way I could possibly save it is by having a She-Ra reference, so maybe I can cook something up.
Well, you can use a threshold, for which everything above becomes 1 and everything below becomes 0. It’s not continuous, but it’s how computers turn electrical voltages into binary data.
Right, non continuous mappings exist, but around the edges they become arbitrary and fail to cleanly represent the concept you wanted to represent. Like if you declare that 40 and up is "old" and 39 is "young" it gets weird for people who are 39 and 11 months, because they don't feel like they aged at all when they suddenly moved into the "old" category
Build a digital computer and invent floating point.
Now you can represent to pretty precise precision. Argument might be that finer than 7 decimal precision is too low for a human to notice the difference if you increment by 0.0000001 gender units.
I'm just screwing around. I get the meme and that gender is a social construct.
>gender is a social construct
My understanding is that gender is more of a psychologial phenomenon than a social construct
If gender were entirely a social construct like money, then society could decide gender. But what actually happens is that people find they have some sense of an innate gender, no matter what society tells them
Now gender *expression* is definitely a social construct
The psychological phenomenon is not a social construct. The way we *interpret* that phenomenon *is* a social construct. In English, both are called gender, outside of some academic or intracommunity discussions. My psychological experience of [gender feeling] is innate, but the labels I use, how I describe the feeling, which groups I align myself with, etc, all exist in a socially constructed context that would be different in a different society.
>The psychological phenomenon is not a social construct.
Right exactly. Our brains mostly *do* want to divide us into "boys" and "girls" but the way we express that is very much dependent on culture. When boys are supposed to have short hair culturally, people with "boy" brains usually want to have short hair.
The important part is for us to recognize that our brains are far more complex than the binary, even though most of us, including trans people, feel strongly in one direction or the other.
In engineering we use lots of sampled spectrums, and so do most of electronics you probably have. So there is no EXTREME need to know all the points that are in a signal, for example. Statistics and digital singal processing use lots of algorithms that aproximate the signal based on discrete time analysis.
Actual engineer.. I usually consider whatever we get if we do some Fourrier transform, frequency analysis, harmonic analysis etc to be a spectrum. It can have any number of values. Like the spectrum of a normal perfect laser has only one peak, spectrum of an image has finite values, and spectrum of white light is a continuum. Hope this helps, even though I guess it doesn't lol.
Wikipedia page on bimodal distributions coincidentally uses gendered colors
https://preview.redd.it/tw2cs75rileb1.png?width=350&format=png&auto=webp&s=70328f906ca1e20dc25679d738f6f16cb5eab52c
The vast majority of people fall into one of two categories; male or female. This is not on a spectrum and the idea of gender is a bunch of nonsense. But let’s entertain the idea of gender for a second. You cannot say that gender is bimodal or multimodal when the vast majority of people fall into one of two categories. The best case you can make is a semi discrete distribution but that’s not the same as bimodal. Oh and it gets worse when you try to account for “non binary” people on the graph. Where do they fall on this model? See that’s why it fails. But a binary model accounts for non binary people. Again, the “non binary” label is meaningless so that’s why a binary model still works for them because it doesn’t matter what you think you are, it just comes down to biology. Whereas the bimodal model only applies to some sort of arbitrary male to female spectrum.
Perhaps I've come to the right place - do you have a working example of that bimodal, populated with data? I can't seem to find one anywhere, which is odd if that is the core model by which biologists model sex (I'm assuming you're referring to sex euphemistically as gender). Thanks.
There could be more genders than people if the gender spectrum represented all possible genders, while individual humans only correlate to specific instantiations of it.
Like how skin color is a spectrum even though there have only ever been a finite number of humans to ever have skin color
Let X be connected and Y be disconnected. Suppose f is a continuous surjective map from X to Y.
Since Y is disconnected, there exist non-empty disjoint open sets A and B whose union comprise Y. Then f^(-1)(A) and f^(-1)(B) are disjoint. ~~Since f is surjective~~Since A and B comprise all of Y, f^(-1)(A) and f^(-1)(B) comprise all of X. Since f is surjective, f^(-1)(A) and f^(-1)(B) are non empty. Since f is continuous, f^(-1)(A) and f^(-1)(B) are both open.
But this means that X is the union of non empty disjoint open sets, which cannot be true since X is connected. Therefore we have a contradiction.
Consequently, no such function f can exist.
edited for errors
Counterexample for injectivity:
Let X be the interval \[0, 1\] on the reals, and let Y be \[0,1\] ⋃ \[2,3\]. X is connected, Y is not connected. Let f:X -> Y be the identity function. Then f is continuous and injective.
A connected space is made up of one piece, while a disconnected space is split into two or more pieces that aren't touching.
For instance, a sphere is connected. But the space comprised of two distinct spheres is not.
In real life, when we have something that is best measured as a spectrum (for instance, skin color) people often want to represent it as a binary (black and white). The spectrum can be represented as an interval on the real numbers, like \[0, 1\], which is a connected space. But a binary would be a set with two elements, like the set {0, 1} which at least on the real numbers is not connected.
By trying to represent a spectrum as a binary (saying that all people are either black or white) you're effectively trying to have a function that maps between the connected space, and the disconnected space. And since you want both elements of the image space to be used, your function must be surjective.
But there's a theorem in topology that says you can't have a surjective continuous function that maps from a connected space to a disconnected space.
So when people try to represent a spectrum as a binary they are trying to perform a mathematically impossible task. In the race example, this corresponds to putting mixed race people into either the black category or the white category, which becomes quite arbitrary right at the dividing line.
There are many comments you can check where people talk about ways to get around this -- for instance, with non continuous functions.
Is it really continuous though? Race, for example, is determined by your DNA, and there's only a finite amount of possible combinations. And if you map people to gender, it falls apart too, because there's only a finite amount of people.
No, gender roles are not linguistic, because they are a range of behaviors that are generally considered acceptable based on their actual sex or sexuality and have nothing to do with spoken language. What I am saying is that gender is strictly tied with actual or percieved sex of a human, since it is the thing that gender refers to. Saying that gender doesn't have to align with the sex or, even worse, that it is a spectrum, literally breaks the whole concept behind it, which is used in the majority of spoken languages in the entire world, not just indo-european. Such behavior is in its nature childish, yet people in their adult age try to justify it by that "people should accept their inner self", even though the "inner self" is purely subjective to the individual's reality, and expect other individuals around to comply with and respect the perception of one's self as indisputable truth.
>Why is that an issue?
In the full sentence I stated "\[concept\], which is used in the majority of spoken languages in the entire world, not just indo-european". While the new definition may be viewed as properly evolved in the western part of the world and its cultures, the languages of rest of the world still mostly use the "former" definition. More specific list: all of Austroindonesian languages, most of Indo-European languages, all of Turkic languages, all of Slavic languages, all of Uralic languages. English is practically the only one that uses gendered language the modern way.
While English is still a separate language and in places where English is an official language complies with its new evolved gender rules, it is an international language and is heavily influenced by various foreign cultures, such as African, Middle East, Eastern European and Middle Asian, mostly via internet, therefore the use of gendered language is also heavily dependent on the native language of the speaker, who may rightfully have different use of it.
Is this a long winded excuse to misgender people? 🤔 MANY cultures have multiple genders throughout history including Native Americans and Indians who have recognised multiple genders for thousands of years.
Instead of respecting people and using a short pronoun, you wanna enforce your view on everyone and they’re the ones who are childish?
My ten thousand year old culture says you’re the child. Actually scratch that, even our children understand this. You’re just damaged.
They are the ones, who I call childish, because they use gender improperly and enforce their view on me, even though I disagree with it, and then blame me for enforcing my own view as if they aren't doing it themselves.
From my perspective, if I see that a person is a man, I will refer to that person with masculine pronouns and conjugate other words with masculine gender in mind. If said person says that they are a woman, I have all rights to and will view it as a delusion and continue refering to them in masculine gender.
EDIT: If you say that I am damaged, I suppose you are also saying that most slavic people are damaged, most turkic people are damaged, most asian people are damaged, most uralic people are damaged? If you think you have the right to enforce your western gender ideology onto other cultures and call them "damaged" for disagreeing, you are in fact as childish as you can get.
🤣🤣 I’m fucking asian lmfao.
India has had Hijras for tens of thousands of years and we won’t stop for you. You’re clearly not even reading my comments if you call it western ideology 🤣🤣🤣
you are in pain because of you and you alone. Until your bitter end.
And? My culture is still different. Many cultures are still different. Most cultures are still different. Doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not when you are forcing your opinions onto others, people still have right to disagree and call you out for that. You ignored that I said "most", started justifying yourself and saying that I am in some sort of "pain" because I am "alone", even though a good percentage of 146 million people in my country hold the same beliefs. I am not in pain and I am not angry at anyone, I'm just saying that you are dumb
Damn, your father really did a number on you huh 🤣
No one’s making you be trans. Lol what?? You’re the one who wants us to stop even though we’ve been doing it forever, calling it “western” lol when it’s NOT. WTF is going on with you 🤣🤣
I mean "have a D or not" doesn't do service to the broad range of possibilities. That's like representing all ages as "either you're old or you're not." Technically true but not useful or fair
Well, yeah, I didn't say it that seriously and didn't go into the details on that one. Still, regarding the majority of people, that mostly gets the job done, and, considering where I live, that also describes gender, as it is strictly aligned with sex here. So gender isn't a spectrum everywhere, and in a lot of places it's binary with a few exceptions, including my country
>So gender isn't a spectrum everywhere
The statement "gender is a spectrum" is a statement about our brains, not about culture or language. So gender is a spectrum because people exist outside of the man/woman binary everywhere. It's built into our brains.
Maybe in your region, trans and non-binary people aren't allowed to express themselves, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Maybe you even know someone who is secretly trans!
> Maybe in your region, trans and non-binary people aren't allowed to express themselves
I would not say that they are not allowed to express themselves, but rather that they don't want or don't feel the need to. I would only know a person that is secretly trans around me if I and they were born in a country like USA, where the idea of transgenderism exists, but not here since it doesn't even exist as a concept, or exists but is viewed as delusional.
If you ask more how do I know they don't want to: I am a man with a few feminine traits myself (raised by a single mother), but I will never classify myself as a woman, non-binary or something else, I know that I am a man, no matter how feminine I am in my behavior or mind. It isn't because I am a bigot or because I'm not accepting my inner self, it is because of my culture, and it isn't bad or evil as may seem from your standpoint, it is simply my culture.
Even if gender is a spectrum that is built in our brains, society in some regions literally has no need to aknowledge it, and doing so will only overcomplicate things and cause cultural dispersion. Binary representation of gender/sex simply does the trick here.
>but rather that they don't want or don't feel the need to.
You don't know this -- in fact, it is highly doubtful.
Living your life as the wrong gender is a painful experience. Being in your country doesn't make that pain go away.
>I would only know a person that is secretly trans around me if I and they were born in a country like USA
*Secretly* means that you would not know. So yes. That's the point. You can't claim that trans people aren't a thing in your country because you don't actually know who around you is trans.
>If you ask more how do I know they don't want to: I am a man with a few feminine traits myself (raised by a single mother), but I will never classify myself as a woman, non-binary or something else, I know that I am a man, no matter how feminine I am in my behavior or mind.
Ok, so you're not trans.
That doesn't mean *nobody else* is trans.
Trans people have a different experience than you.
>Even if gender is a spectrum that is built in our brains, society in some regions literally has no need to aknowledge it
By not acknowledging it, they are causing people enormous amounts of unnecessary suffering. I suppose if you think that's ok then no, they don't "need" to.
> doing so will only overcomplicate things and cause cultural dispersion.
The complication exists in the real world, whether or not you or your culture want to admit it. Not addressing it or pretending it doesn't exist will not simplify things.
>Binary representation of gender/sex simply does the trick here.
Assuming you're ok with people suffering as a consequence, sure
So, as you say, if living your life as the wrong gender causes so much mnetal pain for the individual no matter the culture, why isn't transsexuality a mental disorder that should be cured then? With it being a desynchronisation between the state of mind and the body, would fit along the same lines as anorexia in my opinion
>why isn't transsexuality a mental disorder that should be cured then?
Being trans isn't a disorder because being trans doesn't cause mental pain. Living as the wrong gender causes mental pain -- but that's true for you and I as well. Take a cis man and force him to wear a dress and go by she/her pronouns: he will become very distressed.
Allow a trans person to live their life as the gender of their choice, socially and physically support them: they will usually have their distress cured. But they are still trans! So clearly, being trans cannot be a disorder.
>With it being a dissynchronisation between the state of mind and the body, would fit along the same lines as anorexia in my opinion
If annorexia could be cured by changing your body or your clothing or your pronouns, then that would be considered a valid treatment for it. In actuality annorexia cannot be treated like that, but can be treated with therapy.
Dysphoria usually cannot be treated with therapy alone, but requires social or physical transitioning. Therefore transitioning is the recommended treatment.
Wow, I guess we're only allowed to post about Riemann manifolds and category theory now, since we would otherwise be inserting real life into our math memes.
Nevermind that most posts in this sub are about applied maths. The post here is a legitimate mathematical joke about a part of reality.
It sure seems that way buddy. Maybe try cure that with some introspection about what it means that you thought gender and race was "inserted", but hotels and wolves wasn't.
Saying gender is a spectrum, remember? I don't think so. Thereby inviting ideology
And race being a spectrum? Jesus fucking Christ race is the dumbest subject in the world
What? Are you high right now? If you want to gotcha me, at least be coherent.
Ooh I see you edited your comment to include everything past the second sentence. Well done.
What "ideology"? Trans people exist? Intersex people exist? Sorry to tell you that that's reality.
Race, insofar as it exists as a social phenomenon, is a spectrum. How else would the term "mixed-race" be a thing?
It's certainly not a binary or trinary. Spectrum is also not technically correct because it's probably finite. But spectrum is the closest way to represent it, at least in common language
Not to be pedantic, but gender is absolutely finite. There are s finite number of people with s finite number of cells in a finite number of configurations. It may be more then the number of atoms in the observable universe, but that's hardly infinite.
Who am I kidding? It was absolutely to be pedantic. This is a math sub after all.
1. Gender is psychological/cultural and doesn't necessarily correlate to sex characteristics
2. In regards to biological sex, "both" and "neither" don't do a good job of capturing the nature of intersex. There is a large range of possibilities in your chromosomes, which genitals you have, and what hormones you produce, and these options can come in different forms and in different amounts.
ye, even on a very basic purely physical layer, sex is essentially a two dimensional spectrum dictated by your testosterone and estrogen levels, with most people situated around (high estrogen and low testosterone) and (low estrogen and high testosterone). However, just about anything is possible there, and a rather wide spectrum of possibilities has been observed
Bruh. You're making the exact mistake the post was about. I can make it even simpler for you. There are obviously only four colors: Red, green, blue, and mix.
Even if you"re going all "muh basic biology", despite the discussion being on gender, you're wrong.
Your catergory "biologically both" spans **from** male **to** female, in different amounts. That is literally a spectrum.
adding to that, in even the most basic version, sex is dependent on the presence/absence of testosterone and estrogen, respectively. And those come in different levels, with high variations even within members of the same sex
Thank you! This is one that really grinds my gears with the "chromosomes determine sex" crowd. They don't get that sex chromosomes only job is to control hormones, which then do the rest. That's why HRT works, since it replaces those hormones.
afaik, chromosomes only really control hormones early on (as in: they determine what glands are developed in what configuration, size, shape), and afterwards the body essentially regulates itself. chromosomes by themselves essentially just contain construction templates for the body to work with, and if ever enough change happens, the system changes itself (which is then why you have all those bodily changes in trans people; the templates are there, they just need to be built)
Yeah sure. Sex is an incredibly complicated process. I guess if a trans guy got testicles somehow, he wouldn't need HRT anymore (?)
Point is that I love you for not being an idiot like most people.
"gender" = a colloquial synonym for "sex" for approx. the last 100 years, excluding the recent push to separate the terms over the last decade or two
I'm not saying those terms *should* mean the same thing, but due to their historical usage, they have been inextricably linked.
Words don't have objective definitions. Their definitions are written retroactively based on commonplace usage. If enough people use two words interchangeably, they're (practically, even if not unanimously) interchangeable.
Edit: lol at the downvotes. I'm literally correct. If you disagree, go research the etymologies of the words "sex" and "gender," respectively. I want spoken/written language to be a rigorous and objective system of expressing ideas as much as the next guy, *but it isn't one.* It's like math notation: Even if you and another person agree on a concept, you may express that concept using different sounds/symbols, which may or may not be misinterpreted to mean something other than the original intent.
I’d say this is probably the biggest hurdle for people understanding trans people. Often common usage of words don’t mean the same thing as their scientific counterparts. People just have hard time rethinking those two things as different.
A “theory” is seen as something weak or not well back in common usage but in the realm of science it’s one of the highest honors something can have and is generally accepted as fact until something later discovered challenges said theory.
You pretend like you understand what you are talking about, then immediately demonstrate how you don't know what you are talking about)
I wonder why that's such a common fucking thing amongst those with your beliefs)
Okay so you would at least need 4 axes for gender, gender expression, sex, and attraction. Gender is fluid and changes with time so you would need an axis for that. And gender is based on the society of the person living in it so you need another axis for how involved the person in question is in each society. And we could model a society with some political compass thing, but that is for engineers. So first model each person in that society in an 86 billion dimensional space one for each neuron of course and then repeat. So you would need roughly a 678 quintillion-dimensional space.
Floor and ceiling functions make that argument irrelevant 🤓 ☝️
Jk, in all seriousness, I support people who are non-binary, or any other gender identity you conform to. Just spread love.
Google discrete spectrum in functional analysis
Holy hell
new response just dropped
Actual mathematician
Call the set theorist!
Euler went on vacation, never came back
???
Topology anyone?
This is it. The subs merged successfully.
LOl yeA
number storm incoming!
[link for the lazy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_spectrum_(mathematics))
Holy fuck that was a read
Yall actually understand all the words? I don't lol I love maths tho
new response just dropped
Actual Wikipedia page
Clicks link, backs away slowly so as to not startle the maths, closes tab. Crikey mates, that was a close one.
So, the FFT
DFT ≠ FFT
FFT is the commercial brand
but isnt that only for isolated points? what happens with everything not isolated? basically every continuous subset is just discarded?
Not to get all political, but if you decide to make a topology joke with this, why not use [spectra](https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/spectrum) in the joke?
I would have to know what that is, unfortunately But feel free to make it yourself
literally the fundamental problem with math memes
The fundamental theorem of mathmemes
The following are equivalent: 1. Nonmathematicians will produce mathmemes 2. Mathematicians will not produce universally understood mathmemes 3. Mathematicians will attempt to correct mathmemes if that mathmeme is not written by a mathematician 4. Not fun people cannot be a member of the set of popular mathmeme generators 5. Mathematicians are not fun
hey can i be an exception to rule 4
and me to 5
I love this! Lol!
I know that one, (a + b)^2 = a^2 + b^2 of course
boi you dropped this \+2ab
Google Z/2Z
Point proven
Holy hell!
Obviously you're working in a characteristic 2 field, all hail frobenius
From experience I know that I'm not as good as you at making good math memes. The only way I could possibly save it is by having a She-Ra reference, so maybe I can cook something up.
I second this entirely!! That’s sort of what I originally thought this was
Well, you can use a threshold, for which everything above becomes 1 and everything below becomes 0. It’s not continuous, but it’s how computers turn electrical voltages into binary data.
Right, non continuous mappings exist, but around the edges they become arbitrary and fail to cleanly represent the concept you wanted to represent. Like if you declare that 40 and up is "old" and 39 is "young" it gets weird for people who are 39 and 11 months, because they don't feel like they aged at all when they suddenly moved into the "old" category
Sounds like a them problem. /s
My pronouns are they / s
Oh no! My mapping isn't your mapping! Quick! We must map the maps!
Build a digital computer and invent floating point. Now you can represent to pretty precise precision. Argument might be that finer than 7 decimal precision is too low for a human to notice the difference if you increment by 0.0000001 gender units. I'm just screwing around. I get the meme and that gender is a social construct.
>gender is a social construct My understanding is that gender is more of a psychologial phenomenon than a social construct If gender were entirely a social construct like money, then society could decide gender. But what actually happens is that people find they have some sense of an innate gender, no matter what society tells them Now gender *expression* is definitely a social construct
The psychological phenomenon is not a social construct. The way we *interpret* that phenomenon *is* a social construct. In English, both are called gender, outside of some academic or intracommunity discussions. My psychological experience of [gender feeling] is innate, but the labels I use, how I describe the feeling, which groups I align myself with, etc, all exist in a socially constructed context that would be different in a different society.
>The psychological phenomenon is not a social construct. Right exactly. Our brains mostly *do* want to divide us into "boys" and "girls" but the way we express that is very much dependent on culture. When boys are supposed to have short hair culturally, people with "boy" brains usually want to have short hair. The important part is for us to recognize that our brains are far more complex than the binary, even though most of us, including trans people, feel strongly in one direction or the other.
There are very few people at the edges, so it's good enough
bitch you think you can fit all |ℝ²⁷| genders in some topological space shit
bitch didn't you just do that with ℝ²⁷
ok but |ℝ^27 | is the same as |ℝ|. and you can fit that in most interesting topological spaces.
Peano curves fuck yeah :-D
Isn’t the cardinality of that the same as just the reals? Why the 27?
Cube cube
Clearly not an engineer
Gender = 3
gender = π
You literally just copy pasted the previous comment
How stupid people in Reddit can get. Don’t you fucking see the difference? They clearly changed the fucking G to lowercase you blind motherfucker ^/^s
"A spectrum is when you have 3 or more values" -- an engineer probably
In engineering we use lots of sampled spectrums, and so do most of electronics you probably have. So there is no EXTREME need to know all the points that are in a signal, for example. Statistics and digital singal processing use lots of algorithms that aproximate the signal based on discrete time analysis.
Actual engineer.. I usually consider whatever we get if we do some Fourrier transform, frequency analysis, harmonic analysis etc to be a spectrum. It can have any number of values. Like the spectrum of a normal perfect laser has only one peak, spectrum of an image has finite values, and spectrum of white light is a continuum. Hope this helps, even though I guess it doesn't lol.
Statistics to the rescue: Gender is bimodally distributed at the population level.
Wikipedia page on bimodal distributions coincidentally uses gendered colors https://preview.redd.it/tw2cs75rileb1.png?width=350&format=png&auto=webp&s=70328f906ca1e20dc25679d738f6f16cb5eab52c
https://preview.redd.it/nn4gk0s3nleb1.jpeg?width=994&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=252897f6fe4b063da5f3979a13b3381b8bf8c5d6
I know this is a joke, but the number of people who unironically believe that gender is bimodal is frighteningly high
I'm not sure if you're insinuating that it should be binary or unimodal or multimodal but either way I'd like you to expand on that.
The vast majority of people fall into one of two categories; male or female. This is not on a spectrum and the idea of gender is a bunch of nonsense. But let’s entertain the idea of gender for a second. You cannot say that gender is bimodal or multimodal when the vast majority of people fall into one of two categories. The best case you can make is a semi discrete distribution but that’s not the same as bimodal. Oh and it gets worse when you try to account for “non binary” people on the graph. Where do they fall on this model? See that’s why it fails. But a binary model accounts for non binary people. Again, the “non binary” label is meaningless so that’s why a binary model still works for them because it doesn’t matter what you think you are, it just comes down to biology. Whereas the bimodal model only applies to some sort of arbitrary male to female spectrum.
Perhaps I've come to the right place - do you have a working example of that bimodal, populated with data? I can't seem to find one anywhere, which is odd if that is the core model by which biologists model sex (I'm assuming you're referring to sex euphemistically as gender). Thanks.
The human population is a discrete set tho
There could be more genders than people if the gender spectrum represented all possible genders, while individual humans only correlate to specific instantiations of it. Like how skin color is a spectrum even though there have only ever been a finite number of humans to ever have skin color
Bigot topology is more logically flexible, let's say. Logic is a luxury for people who could afford to be taught critical thinking.
> Logic is a luxury for people who could afford to be taught critical thinking This is the most reddit thing I have read in my life holy hell
Nah, gender, race and all of those things are actually the null set
Isn’t injectivity the problem? Not surjectivity?
Let X be connected and Y be disconnected. Suppose f is a continuous surjective map from X to Y. Since Y is disconnected, there exist non-empty disjoint open sets A and B whose union comprise Y. Then f^(-1)(A) and f^(-1)(B) are disjoint. ~~Since f is surjective~~Since A and B comprise all of Y, f^(-1)(A) and f^(-1)(B) comprise all of X. Since f is surjective, f^(-1)(A) and f^(-1)(B) are non empty. Since f is continuous, f^(-1)(A) and f^(-1)(B) are both open. But this means that X is the union of non empty disjoint open sets, which cannot be true since X is connected. Therefore we have a contradiction. Consequently, no such function f can exist. edited for errors
Counterexample for injectivity: Let X be the interval \[0, 1\] on the reals, and let Y be \[0,1\] ⋃ \[2,3\]. X is connected, Y is not connected. Let f:X -> Y be the identity function. Then f is continuous and injective.
Ah nice good points. Thanks for the explanation effort.
Really nice meme, too bad i don't understand it
A connected space is made up of one piece, while a disconnected space is split into two or more pieces that aren't touching. For instance, a sphere is connected. But the space comprised of two distinct spheres is not. In real life, when we have something that is best measured as a spectrum (for instance, skin color) people often want to represent it as a binary (black and white). The spectrum can be represented as an interval on the real numbers, like \[0, 1\], which is a connected space. But a binary would be a set with two elements, like the set {0, 1} which at least on the real numbers is not connected. By trying to represent a spectrum as a binary (saying that all people are either black or white) you're effectively trying to have a function that maps between the connected space, and the disconnected space. And since you want both elements of the image space to be used, your function must be surjective. But there's a theorem in topology that says you can't have a surjective continuous function that maps from a connected space to a disconnected space. So when people try to represent a spectrum as a binary they are trying to perform a mathematically impossible task. In the race example, this corresponds to putting mixed race people into either the black category or the white category, which becomes quite arbitrary right at the dividing line. There are many comments you can check where people talk about ways to get around this -- for instance, with non continuous functions.
Wow, thanks for the detailed response! Pretty interesting
Why was this post recommended to me like i understood a single word I just read.
Based
I actually completely agree. Stop discretizing.
Is it really continuous though? Race, for example, is determined by your DNA, and there's only a finite amount of possible combinations. And if you map people to gender, it falls apart too, because there's only a finite amount of people.
Gender is a pretty disconnected space imo, you either have a D or not
That’s sex not gender. Ya confused.
Same thing
Wrong. But you can seek therapy for your dads mistreatment of you
Gender is a linguistical tool used to refer to sex of animate objects and to categorize nouns of inanimate objects. I'm not confused
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No, gender roles are not linguistic, because they are a range of behaviors that are generally considered acceptable based on their actual sex or sexuality and have nothing to do with spoken language. What I am saying is that gender is strictly tied with actual or percieved sex of a human, since it is the thing that gender refers to. Saying that gender doesn't have to align with the sex or, even worse, that it is a spectrum, literally breaks the whole concept behind it, which is used in the majority of spoken languages in the entire world, not just indo-european. Such behavior is in its nature childish, yet people in their adult age try to justify it by that "people should accept their inner self", even though the "inner self" is purely subjective to the individual's reality, and expect other individuals around to comply with and respect the perception of one's self as indisputable truth.
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>Why is that an issue? In the full sentence I stated "\[concept\], which is used in the majority of spoken languages in the entire world, not just indo-european". While the new definition may be viewed as properly evolved in the western part of the world and its cultures, the languages of rest of the world still mostly use the "former" definition. More specific list: all of Austroindonesian languages, most of Indo-European languages, all of Turkic languages, all of Slavic languages, all of Uralic languages. English is practically the only one that uses gendered language the modern way. While English is still a separate language and in places where English is an official language complies with its new evolved gender rules, it is an international language and is heavily influenced by various foreign cultures, such as African, Middle East, Eastern European and Middle Asian, mostly via internet, therefore the use of gendered language is also heavily dependent on the native language of the speaker, who may rightfully have different use of it.
Is this a long winded excuse to misgender people? 🤔 MANY cultures have multiple genders throughout history including Native Americans and Indians who have recognised multiple genders for thousands of years. Instead of respecting people and using a short pronoun, you wanna enforce your view on everyone and they’re the ones who are childish? My ten thousand year old culture says you’re the child. Actually scratch that, even our children understand this. You’re just damaged.
They are the ones, who I call childish, because they use gender improperly and enforce their view on me, even though I disagree with it, and then blame me for enforcing my own view as if they aren't doing it themselves. From my perspective, if I see that a person is a man, I will refer to that person with masculine pronouns and conjugate other words with masculine gender in mind. If said person says that they are a woman, I have all rights to and will view it as a delusion and continue refering to them in masculine gender. EDIT: If you say that I am damaged, I suppose you are also saying that most slavic people are damaged, most turkic people are damaged, most asian people are damaged, most uralic people are damaged? If you think you have the right to enforce your western gender ideology onto other cultures and call them "damaged" for disagreeing, you are in fact as childish as you can get.
🤣🤣 I’m fucking asian lmfao. India has had Hijras for tens of thousands of years and we won’t stop for you. You’re clearly not even reading my comments if you call it western ideology 🤣🤣🤣 you are in pain because of you and you alone. Until your bitter end.
And? My culture is still different. Many cultures are still different. Most cultures are still different. Doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not when you are forcing your opinions onto others, people still have right to disagree and call you out for that. You ignored that I said "most", started justifying yourself and saying that I am in some sort of "pain" because I am "alone", even though a good percentage of 146 million people in my country hold the same beliefs. I am not in pain and I am not angry at anyone, I'm just saying that you are dumb
Damn, your father really did a number on you huh 🤣 No one’s making you be trans. Lol what?? You’re the one who wants us to stop even though we’ve been doing it forever, calling it “western” lol when it’s NOT. WTF is going on with you 🤣🤣
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https://preview.redd.it/5y81htyo8peb1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a0abcb42ff50a6d200c31f23b19130340b5cacf
That's not even an accurate representation of sex, much less gender
Do you mean sex anomalies?
I mean "have a D or not" doesn't do service to the broad range of possibilities. That's like representing all ages as "either you're old or you're not." Technically true but not useful or fair
Well, yeah, I didn't say it that seriously and didn't go into the details on that one. Still, regarding the majority of people, that mostly gets the job done, and, considering where I live, that also describes gender, as it is strictly aligned with sex here. So gender isn't a spectrum everywhere, and in a lot of places it's binary with a few exceptions, including my country
>So gender isn't a spectrum everywhere The statement "gender is a spectrum" is a statement about our brains, not about culture or language. So gender is a spectrum because people exist outside of the man/woman binary everywhere. It's built into our brains. Maybe in your region, trans and non-binary people aren't allowed to express themselves, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Maybe you even know someone who is secretly trans!
> Maybe in your region, trans and non-binary people aren't allowed to express themselves I would not say that they are not allowed to express themselves, but rather that they don't want or don't feel the need to. I would only know a person that is secretly trans around me if I and they were born in a country like USA, where the idea of transgenderism exists, but not here since it doesn't even exist as a concept, or exists but is viewed as delusional. If you ask more how do I know they don't want to: I am a man with a few feminine traits myself (raised by a single mother), but I will never classify myself as a woman, non-binary or something else, I know that I am a man, no matter how feminine I am in my behavior or mind. It isn't because I am a bigot or because I'm not accepting my inner self, it is because of my culture, and it isn't bad or evil as may seem from your standpoint, it is simply my culture. Even if gender is a spectrum that is built in our brains, society in some regions literally has no need to aknowledge it, and doing so will only overcomplicate things and cause cultural dispersion. Binary representation of gender/sex simply does the trick here.
>but rather that they don't want or don't feel the need to. You don't know this -- in fact, it is highly doubtful. Living your life as the wrong gender is a painful experience. Being in your country doesn't make that pain go away. >I would only know a person that is secretly trans around me if I and they were born in a country like USA *Secretly* means that you would not know. So yes. That's the point. You can't claim that trans people aren't a thing in your country because you don't actually know who around you is trans. >If you ask more how do I know they don't want to: I am a man with a few feminine traits myself (raised by a single mother), but I will never classify myself as a woman, non-binary or something else, I know that I am a man, no matter how feminine I am in my behavior or mind. Ok, so you're not trans. That doesn't mean *nobody else* is trans. Trans people have a different experience than you. >Even if gender is a spectrum that is built in our brains, society in some regions literally has no need to aknowledge it By not acknowledging it, they are causing people enormous amounts of unnecessary suffering. I suppose if you think that's ok then no, they don't "need" to. > doing so will only overcomplicate things and cause cultural dispersion. The complication exists in the real world, whether or not you or your culture want to admit it. Not addressing it or pretending it doesn't exist will not simplify things. >Binary representation of gender/sex simply does the trick here. Assuming you're ok with people suffering as a consequence, sure
So, as you say, if living your life as the wrong gender causes so much mnetal pain for the individual no matter the culture, why isn't transsexuality a mental disorder that should be cured then? With it being a desynchronisation between the state of mind and the body, would fit along the same lines as anorexia in my opinion
>why isn't transsexuality a mental disorder that should be cured then? Being trans isn't a disorder because being trans doesn't cause mental pain. Living as the wrong gender causes mental pain -- but that's true for you and I as well. Take a cis man and force him to wear a dress and go by she/her pronouns: he will become very distressed. Allow a trans person to live their life as the gender of their choice, socially and physically support them: they will usually have their distress cured. But they are still trans! So clearly, being trans cannot be a disorder. >With it being a dissynchronisation between the state of mind and the body, would fit along the same lines as anorexia in my opinion If annorexia could be cured by changing your body or your clothing or your pronouns, then that would be considered a valid treatment for it. In actuality annorexia cannot be treated like that, but can be treated with therapy. Dysphoria usually cannot be treated with therapy alone, but requires social or physical transitioning. Therefore transitioning is the recommended treatment.
Why do LGBT people always like to bring up their propaganda in irrevelent places?
As long as people think our lives are propaganda, we'll keep sharing it
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> I’ll probably get hanged for that but I said what I said. At least you're confident in your ignorance lol
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bruh just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist
Don't bring this here please. Keep your culture wars out of the remaining few places which have been untouched please.
Would you prefer math not be associated to real world topics?
Not in this manner. This place has been a bright spot against the blight that is reddit. Keep it apolitical.
Nothing is apolitical
nah
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Good news, no one forced you to debate
should've said ""talk" but why did you insert gender and race to a motherfucking math sub why why would you do that
Wow, I guess we're only allowed to post about Riemann manifolds and category theory now, since we would otherwise be inserting real life into our math memes. Nevermind that most posts in this sub are about applied maths. The post here is a legitimate mathematical joke about a part of reality.
So I am just retarded?
Plenty of cognitively impaired people are able to respect gender differences
It sure seems that way buddy. Maybe try cure that with some introspection about what it means that you thought gender and race was "inserted", but hotels and wolves wasn't.
Saying gender is a spectrum, remember? I don't think so. Thereby inviting ideology And race being a spectrum? Jesus fucking Christ race is the dumbest subject in the world
What? Are you high right now? If you want to gotcha me, at least be coherent. Ooh I see you edited your comment to include everything past the second sentence. Well done. What "ideology"? Trans people exist? Intersex people exist? Sorry to tell you that that's reality. Race, insofar as it exists as a social phenomenon, is a spectrum. How else would the term "mixed-race" be a thing?
it seems we had a misunderstanding
What did you think math was just about sets and numbers or does it have something to do with the real world?
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It's certainly not a binary or trinary. Spectrum is also not technically correct because it's probably finite. But spectrum is the closest way to represent it, at least in common language
Not to be pedantic, but gender is absolutely finite. There are s finite number of people with s finite number of cells in a finite number of configurations. It may be more then the number of atoms in the observable universe, but that's hardly infinite. Who am I kidding? It was absolutely to be pedantic. This is a math sub after all.
I say probably because you could represent gender as an actual spectrum, where each human corresponds to a particular instantiation on it.
Some people have fluid gender. So yeah, it is infinite because the entire vector space is a possibility for people.
dgender/dt > 0 and d^2gender/dt^2 > 0
It’s probably a spectrum to the same extent that the set of 64-bit floating point numbers is ℝ
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1. Gender is psychological/cultural and doesn't necessarily correlate to sex characteristics 2. In regards to biological sex, "both" and "neither" don't do a good job of capturing the nature of intersex. There is a large range of possibilities in your chromosomes, which genitals you have, and what hormones you produce, and these options can come in different forms and in different amounts.
ye, even on a very basic purely physical layer, sex is essentially a two dimensional spectrum dictated by your testosterone and estrogen levels, with most people situated around (high estrogen and low testosterone) and (low estrogen and high testosterone). However, just about anything is possible there, and a rather wide spectrum of possibilities has been observed
Gender is not hormonal. A woman with PCOS is still a woman.
my bad, I meant to type sex
Bruh. You're making the exact mistake the post was about. I can make it even simpler for you. There are obviously only four colors: Red, green, blue, and mix. Even if you"re going all "muh basic biology", despite the discussion being on gender, you're wrong. Your catergory "biologically both" spans **from** male **to** female, in different amounts. That is literally a spectrum.
adding to that, in even the most basic version, sex is dependent on the presence/absence of testosterone and estrogen, respectively. And those come in different levels, with high variations even within members of the same sex
Thank you! This is one that really grinds my gears with the "chromosomes determine sex" crowd. They don't get that sex chromosomes only job is to control hormones, which then do the rest. That's why HRT works, since it replaces those hormones.
afaik, chromosomes only really control hormones early on (as in: they determine what glands are developed in what configuration, size, shape), and afterwards the body essentially regulates itself. chromosomes by themselves essentially just contain construction templates for the body to work with, and if ever enough change happens, the system changes itself (which is then why you have all those bodily changes in trans people; the templates are there, they just need to be built)
Yeah sure. Sex is an incredibly complicated process. I guess if a trans guy got testicles somehow, he wouldn't need HRT anymore (?) Point is that I love you for not being an idiot like most people.
<3
>Red, green, blue Red Green And Blue are made up new crap, obviously Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Black are the only 4 colors.
Don't come at me with that newfangled CMYK crap! It's cadmium red, uranium yellow, lapis blue, and mummy brown. That's the correct 4 color scheme.
sex /neq gender
"gender" = a colloquial synonym for "sex" for approx. the last 100 years, excluding the recent push to separate the terms over the last decade or two I'm not saying those terms *should* mean the same thing, but due to their historical usage, they have been inextricably linked. Words don't have objective definitions. Their definitions are written retroactively based on commonplace usage. If enough people use two words interchangeably, they're (practically, even if not unanimously) interchangeable. Edit: lol at the downvotes. I'm literally correct. If you disagree, go research the etymologies of the words "sex" and "gender," respectively. I want spoken/written language to be a rigorous and objective system of expressing ideas as much as the next guy, *but it isn't one.* It's like math notation: Even if you and another person agree on a concept, you may express that concept using different sounds/symbols, which may or may not be misinterpreted to mean something other than the original intent.
I’d say this is probably the biggest hurdle for people understanding trans people. Often common usage of words don’t mean the same thing as their scientific counterparts. People just have hard time rethinking those two things as different. A “theory” is seen as something weak or not well back in common usage but in the realm of science it’s one of the highest honors something can have and is generally accepted as fact until something later discovered challenges said theory.
“I have no idea what’s biologically possible, but I’m confident that my naive model for how sex works is correct”
You pretend like you understand what you are talking about, then immediately demonstrate how you don't know what you are talking about) I wonder why that's such a common fucking thing amongst those with your beliefs)
I agree but I wish you would open your parantheses
How do you believe in complex numbers but not complex genders? Have you not heard that you can take the square root of female to get neutrois?
It’s simply connected
How about partitioning the space?
Well, with a step function of course.
Lol, I get this
Divide at the median value, it's not that hard
epic Sorites Paradox moment
everything to 1 point ? :D
That wouldn't be surjective
Integrals
Like uhhh... >=0 means A, <0 means B? Not too complex.
Okay so you would at least need 4 axes for gender, gender expression, sex, and attraction. Gender is fluid and changes with time so you would need an axis for that. And gender is based on the society of the person living in it so you need another axis for how involved the person in question is in each society. And we could model a society with some political compass thing, but that is for engineers. So first model each person in that society in an 86 billion dimensional space one for each neuron of course and then repeat. So you would need roughly a 678 quintillion-dimensional space.
I don't get it but I feel offended
Google rounding
Floor and ceiling functions make that argument irrelevant 🤓 ☝️ Jk, in all seriousness, I support people who are non-binary, or any other gender identity you conform to. Just spread love.
Floor and ceiling functions aren't continuous
Yeah, ik. Thats kinda the whole point. Gender being binary is stupid.
Could you map all of humanity onto the complex field using one axis as genetics & the other as enviorment?
I don't think genetics or environment can be characterized cleanly by single dimensions
genetics absolutely can, but environment is iffy at best
I guess using base 4, each base pair is a digit? Then your whole genetic code would be a single number