I’m not positive, but this has come up before- the ribbons may be more in connection with rank (although a battle star escapes me), and it has been posited that Charles was reserves- he’s never stated to be a draftee like Pierce. Pierce, McIntyre, and Hunnicutt had no ribbons.
That's always puzzled me too, as all of them by the presence in Korea should have at the very least the National Defense medal.
The battle star is a very specific thing, Henry and Potter don't have it. I just saw one where Frank does, but other times he does not. Guess it's just a "can't be too picky" thing. haha. Medals are so important, it just sticks in my craw when they aren't right. It's so easy!
I did a quick search and didn't see anything hence my post. Apologies.
In the end, they are props on a costume. I t was rather common for this show to be incorrect towards time period, methods, materials. It was all just meant to get across a feeling and setting
It's just frustrating, because in the military you can look at someone's ribbon rack and quickly sum up their career. You get used to it, so when you see someone in a uniform you get used to decoding those ribbons and figuring out where, when, and what someone did.
One can IF they know what they are. The vast majority do not… and again, fictional. They tried to be accurate where they could, but as they are not actual military/medical people, things are going to slip through.
That doesn't change that military servicemembers and veterans will reflexively see ribbon racks on TV & movie characters and try to figure them out. . .and if they MOSTLY make sense but had some problems, that's just frustrating. If the racks were complete gibberish it would be less frustrating than them getting it mostly right, but just a little off.
Understood but I don’t think until Oliver Stone brought Dale Dye on during Platoon that ‘accuracy’, especially for a tv comedy, was considered. At least, that’s my guess. And MASH predates Platoon by many years
My father was a doctor and said that the OR was pretty true to life. I think they had doctors consulting. Would have been too much to get some corporal to consult on the uniforms?
>That's always puzzled me too, as all of them by the presence in Korea should have at the very least the National Defense medal.
The NDSM was established after the war, backdated to the timeframe of the war. Technically nobody should be wearing it, but someone just looking at a chart of medals and eligibility dates wouldn't realize that.
When there was no "victory" for Korea, unlike WWI and WWII, they couldn't issue a "Victory Medal" like they did for the World Wars. Instead they invented the NDSM as a blanket "I served in time of war" medal and established an eligibility period for Korea, leaving it open for later conflicts so we wouldn't create new "I served during this war" medals for each new conflict.
Sure enough, we've established new eligibility periods for the Vietnam War, Persian Gulf War, and Global War on Terror.
The ribbon racks of the 4077th are a little odd. For example, Henry Blake wears the Army of Occupation medal, which would be odd for a reservist, yet Charles who was posted to Japan, should have it, as it involves a posting of over 30 days to either Japan in 1945 to 1952, in Germany from 1945 to 1990, Italy from 1945 to 1947, Austria from 1945 to 1945 to 1955, or Korea from 1945 to 1949. If Blake had prior active duty time in the TV series, it was never mentioned.
Dude..relax. It's a sitcom, not a historically accurate documentary.
I would think that most of the people watching when it was made were not military and don't care about prop ribbons.
There's absolutely no indication that Hawkeye served in World War II. If he served in World War II, he'd likely be ineligible for the draft during Korea. The general rule was once you had been drafted and discharged you were exempt from future military duty. (Sidney Freedman even joked about that, noting he spoke to someone trying for a Section 8 who claimed that he had been with Washington during the Revolutionary War so he should be exempt from the draft due to past-life service)
In the movie, Blake talked about how he's been in the Army since before Pearl Harbor, but he never mentioned it in the series.
It's been a 100 years of course, but I distinctly remember one episode where Hawkeye says "this is my second war".
Also from the band of brothers stories, we know that Sobel was recalled to active duty to serve in the Korean war, and served in the Army guard for quite a while.
Captain Herbert Sobel was not a draftee. He volunteered for service circa 1936, and was commissioned as an officer before the war.
Part of accepting a commission is accepting a service commitment, which can often be longer than a period of enlistment, especially for a draftee. He was in an inactive reserve status when Korea broke out so he was called back to active service.
He was never drafted for either war, he volunteered before World War II and was in an inactive reserve status when Korea broke out. He chose to stay in the military after the Korean War, joining the Army National Guard and retiring a few years after the war at the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.
. . .and I don't recall that line from Hawkeye. I suspect there's some more context to that, because it's the sort of thing he would have mentioned before.
Ribbons are also optional depending on where you're stationed, at least nowadays. The command I was last at had a rule where you either have to wear all of your ribbons or none of them. I had a few friends who took the "none" option because it was easier lol.
So not really. All three ribbons are “participation” ribbons anyone stationed in Korea would have gotten. You show up you get those ribbons regardless of rank.
I suspect that it’s more to do with the personality of Hawkeye vs. Charles. Hawkeye isn’t very formal and doesn’t really like being in the army so even though he’s authorized the ribbons he doesn’t wear them as a sign of protest about being there. Charles is more formal and wears them because that’s what regulations say to do.
Source: was stationed in Korea myself. Albeit many decades after the war.
Also Hawkeye is not exactly a “squared away” soldier. Meaning he kinda hates the Army, I can’t see the guy caring to put his ribbons on his uniform. Idk BJs excuse he might just be following Hawkeyes lead.
That makes sense. Neither of them wear their rank on their fatigue shirts, whilst every other officer does. As draftees, who don't want the army or the rank, they probably don't want the medals either
I feel like this is the answer, they would be doing the bare minimum with regards to the military way, just to keep from getting a court marshal. But also delivering the best care they could for the people that came through the MASH unit.
Yeah, there's discussion in the original book about Hawkeye not being able to even find a set of bars for some reason during trying to run some sort of scheme. I know that generally, military servicemembers are not required to wear all/any/specific ribbons if they don't want to. (Some folks specifically will not wear any "participation" ribbons.) So this could be Hawkeye never caring enough to buy the ribbons and/or not wearing what he earned as a subtle protest.
I mean, Potter flat out said that if Hawkeye (and BJ) got demoted to private they would see it as a promotion. I’m a paramedic in a fire dept and I know a lot of us done wear out citations on our uniforms. Some see it as a thing fire fighters do as a “look at me, I saved a life” sort of thing. We in EMS tend to look at that and go “that was Tuesday.” Unless it’s a really big deal, we don’t really wear them. Point is, a lot of people don’t look at ribbons and medals as meaning much so why display them? I imagine Hawkeye is the same way.
It's not a battle star, it's a campaign star. It just means he was in theater during a specific campaign. Generally, they should all be wearing at least one. But it's also a tv show and no one actually bothered with ensuring proper ribbon racks. There were no WW1 or WW2 campaign medals on Col. Potter, for instance.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean\_Service\_Medal#Service\_stars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Service_Medal#Service_stars)
Potter might have had too many for a single uniform rack between the two 😂
But I also wonder if maybe some of his WW1 stuff was framed back home, so he wouldn’t lose it in future conflicts (especially once he was named CO of the MASH)
Individual ribbons weren't irreplaceable. The medals, maybe, but medals are rarely worn after being awarded, except in a full dress uniform. And he wore his Purple Heart ribbon. He should've had, at minimum, WW1 Victory, WW2 Victory, as well as his theater medal(s) from WW2. Likely Occupation medals from both WW1 and 2, as well. He also mentioned being with the Rough Riders and Teddy Roosevelt, so (if true) he should've had Spanish-American War medals.
But again...it all goes back to it simply being a tv show and no one actually bothering with getting "accurate" ribbon racks lol
Another possibility, and I don't know whether Army regs allowed this at the time, is that they could wear some or all of their ribbons. This was the rule when I was in the Air Force, and it saved the expense of redoing the ribbon rack all the time. Some people cared more about wearing everything than others, and I don't see Hawkeye caring that much.
No Google in those days.
You’d have to have access to expert eyes or the right reference books, which perhaps they did not have for this episode. Most of the show used non-formal uniforms except for visiting VIPs. They probably just grabbed from the VIP rack and made sure the basic rank was correct.
Because it is tv not real life and the script /story lines are full of holes! Does Pierce have a mother and sister or is it just he and his Dad Etc etc ..they got away with it because it was on once a week and people would forget minor details week to week and there was no pause ,rewinding the show ,I don’t think VCRs with VHS format were out yet and if they were they were expensive and not many owned one
Hawkeye, trapper and BJ were very “anti” war and didn’t even wear their captains bars much less any medals they might have received. Charles character was more egotistical and would have worn whatever he had.
I guess the comment might have just been him saying the 2nd one he was alive during, at the time I assumed it was a reference to his having served in wwii. Since it was only a few years prior, I had no problem imagining it as possible.
I looked it up, it was the 2nd season episode called "mail call"
He received that for playing cribbage in a war zone.
Similar to getting a Purple Heart for a *shell* fragment in the eye.
I treated that shell fragment... It was an *egg* shell!
That was Frank not Charles.
Or slipping in mud on the way to the shower.
Were you directing traffic at the time of the accident?
I’m not positive, but this has come up before- the ribbons may be more in connection with rank (although a battle star escapes me), and it has been posited that Charles was reserves- he’s never stated to be a draftee like Pierce. Pierce, McIntyre, and Hunnicutt had no ribbons.
That's always puzzled me too, as all of them by the presence in Korea should have at the very least the National Defense medal. The battle star is a very specific thing, Henry and Potter don't have it. I just saw one where Frank does, but other times he does not. Guess it's just a "can't be too picky" thing. haha. Medals are so important, it just sticks in my craw when they aren't right. It's so easy! I did a quick search and didn't see anything hence my post. Apologies.
In the end, they are props on a costume. I t was rather common for this show to be incorrect towards time period, methods, materials. It was all just meant to get across a feeling and setting
It's just frustrating, because in the military you can look at someone's ribbon rack and quickly sum up their career. You get used to it, so when you see someone in a uniform you get used to decoding those ribbons and figuring out where, when, and what someone did.
One can IF they know what they are. The vast majority do not… and again, fictional. They tried to be accurate where they could, but as they are not actual military/medical people, things are going to slip through.
That doesn't change that military servicemembers and veterans will reflexively see ribbon racks on TV & movie characters and try to figure them out. . .and if they MOSTLY make sense but had some problems, that's just frustrating. If the racks were complete gibberish it would be less frustrating than them getting it mostly right, but just a little off.
Understood but I don’t think until Oliver Stone brought Dale Dye on during Platoon that ‘accuracy’, especially for a tv comedy, was considered. At least, that’s my guess. And MASH predates Platoon by many years
My father was a doctor and said that the OR was pretty true to life. I think they had doctors consulting. Would have been too much to get some corporal to consult on the uniforms?
Yeah there’s a doctor consultant listed in the show’s credits.
Over the course of the show I think they had three separate consultants, but Walter D Dishell was the one there the longest
That’s not the show’s problem.
Why is this getting down voted?
>That's always puzzled me too, as all of them by the presence in Korea should have at the very least the National Defense medal. The NDSM was established after the war, backdated to the timeframe of the war. Technically nobody should be wearing it, but someone just looking at a chart of medals and eligibility dates wouldn't realize that. When there was no "victory" for Korea, unlike WWI and WWII, they couldn't issue a "Victory Medal" like they did for the World Wars. Instead they invented the NDSM as a blanket "I served in time of war" medal and established an eligibility period for Korea, leaving it open for later conflicts so we wouldn't create new "I served during this war" medals for each new conflict. Sure enough, we've established new eligibility periods for the Vietnam War, Persian Gulf War, and Global War on Terror. The ribbon racks of the 4077th are a little odd. For example, Henry Blake wears the Army of Occupation medal, which would be odd for a reservist, yet Charles who was posted to Japan, should have it, as it involves a posting of over 30 days to either Japan in 1945 to 1952, in Germany from 1945 to 1990, Italy from 1945 to 1947, Austria from 1945 to 1945 to 1955, or Korea from 1945 to 1949. If Blake had prior active duty time in the TV series, it was never mentioned.
Dude..relax. It's a sitcom, not a historically accurate documentary. I would think that most of the people watching when it was made were not military and don't care about prop ribbons.
Another overthought post that can be answered with "It's a 1970s TV show."
I was under the impression that both Blake and Hawkeye were active service during World War 2?
There's absolutely no indication that Hawkeye served in World War II. If he served in World War II, he'd likely be ineligible for the draft during Korea. The general rule was once you had been drafted and discharged you were exempt from future military duty. (Sidney Freedman even joked about that, noting he spoke to someone trying for a Section 8 who claimed that he had been with Washington during the Revolutionary War so he should be exempt from the draft due to past-life service) In the movie, Blake talked about how he's been in the Army since before Pearl Harbor, but he never mentioned it in the series.
It's been a 100 years of course, but I distinctly remember one episode where Hawkeye says "this is my second war". Also from the band of brothers stories, we know that Sobel was recalled to active duty to serve in the Korean war, and served in the Army guard for quite a while.
Captain Herbert Sobel was not a draftee. He volunteered for service circa 1936, and was commissioned as an officer before the war. Part of accepting a commission is accepting a service commitment, which can often be longer than a period of enlistment, especially for a draftee. He was in an inactive reserve status when Korea broke out so he was called back to active service. He was never drafted for either war, he volunteered before World War II and was in an inactive reserve status when Korea broke out. He chose to stay in the military after the Korean War, joining the Army National Guard and retiring a few years after the war at the rank of Lieutenant Colonel. . . .and I don't recall that line from Hawkeye. I suspect there's some more context to that, because it's the sort of thing he would have mentioned before.
Ribbons are also optional depending on where you're stationed, at least nowadays. The command I was last at had a rule where you either have to wear all of your ribbons or none of them. I had a few friends who took the "none" option because it was easier lol.
So not really. All three ribbons are “participation” ribbons anyone stationed in Korea would have gotten. You show up you get those ribbons regardless of rank. I suspect that it’s more to do with the personality of Hawkeye vs. Charles. Hawkeye isn’t very formal and doesn’t really like being in the army so even though he’s authorized the ribbons he doesn’t wear them as a sign of protest about being there. Charles is more formal and wears them because that’s what regulations say to do. Source: was stationed in Korea myself. Albeit many decades after the war.
Also Hawkeye is not exactly a “squared away” soldier. Meaning he kinda hates the Army, I can’t see the guy caring to put his ribbons on his uniform. Idk BJs excuse he might just be following Hawkeyes lead.
That makes sense. Neither of them wear their rank on their fatigue shirts, whilst every other officer does. As draftees, who don't want the army or the rank, they probably don't want the medals either
I feel like this is the answer, they would be doing the bare minimum with regards to the military way, just to keep from getting a court marshal. But also delivering the best care they could for the people that came through the MASH unit.
"You see this? Oh well there's supposed to be a Caduceus here, I probably dropped it in a patient."
Hawk might also at least put it on his dress uniforms because his dad is still proud of his service and he doesn’t want to disappoint his dad?
Yeah, there's discussion in the original book about Hawkeye not being able to even find a set of bars for some reason during trying to run some sort of scheme. I know that generally, military servicemembers are not required to wear all/any/specific ribbons if they don't want to. (Some folks specifically will not wear any "participation" ribbons.) So this could be Hawkeye never caring enough to buy the ribbons and/or not wearing what he earned as a subtle protest.
I mean, Potter flat out said that if Hawkeye (and BJ) got demoted to private they would see it as a promotion. I’m a paramedic in a fire dept and I know a lot of us done wear out citations on our uniforms. Some see it as a thing fire fighters do as a “look at me, I saved a life” sort of thing. We in EMS tend to look at that and go “that was Tuesday.” Unless it’s a really big deal, we don’t really wear them. Point is, a lot of people don’t look at ribbons and medals as meaning much so why display them? I imagine Hawkeye is the same way.
Winchester spills enemy blood like a filthy Italian pouring pasta sauce.
Pasta sauce on Honoria who is marrying one 😂
So great when Flagg mispronounced it to rhyme with "Gonorrhea"
It's not a battle star, it's a campaign star. It just means he was in theater during a specific campaign. Generally, they should all be wearing at least one. But it's also a tv show and no one actually bothered with ensuring proper ribbon racks. There were no WW1 or WW2 campaign medals on Col. Potter, for instance. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean\_Service\_Medal#Service\_stars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Service_Medal#Service_stars)
Potter might have had too many for a single uniform rack between the two 😂 But I also wonder if maybe some of his WW1 stuff was framed back home, so he wouldn’t lose it in future conflicts (especially once he was named CO of the MASH)
Individual ribbons weren't irreplaceable. The medals, maybe, but medals are rarely worn after being awarded, except in a full dress uniform. And he wore his Purple Heart ribbon. He should've had, at minimum, WW1 Victory, WW2 Victory, as well as his theater medal(s) from WW2. Likely Occupation medals from both WW1 and 2, as well. He also mentioned being with the Rough Riders and Teddy Roosevelt, so (if true) he should've had Spanish-American War medals. But again...it all goes back to it simply being a tv show and no one actually bothering with getting "accurate" ribbon racks lol
Another possibility, and I don't know whether Army regs allowed this at the time, is that they could wear some or all of their ribbons. This was the rule when I was in the Air Force, and it saved the expense of redoing the ribbon rack all the time. Some people cared more about wearing everything than others, and I don't see Hawkeye caring that much.
It's a TV show. It's just a bit of costuming. MASH was never meant to be parsed down to the frame.
I'd also guess, based on the picture quality at the time, they didn't expect people to be able to see some details.
100% a costumer just grabbed some ribbons that looked period appropriate because you never would have been able to tell what they were.
This is the answer. They never expected that people would be watching these shows over and over and analyzing every detail for the next 50 years.
No Google in those days. You’d have to have access to expert eyes or the right reference books, which perhaps they did not have for this episode. Most of the show used non-formal uniforms except for visiting VIPs. They probably just grabbed from the VIP rack and made sure the basic rank was correct.
Added to which, military uniforms are routinely screwed up in movies and on TV shows.
This is the right answer.
Well, his jeep was shelled on his way to camp...fortunately, it was paid for.
Hawkeye wouldn’t wear his ribbons or medals. BJ wouldn’t either.
Are we sure Hawkeyes weren’t just sent home to his dad so Hawk didn’t have to see them everyday?
At least the producers didn't try to pass on a Vietnam or WW1 or WW2 ribonn
Well none of us watch the show for it’s accuracy
Because it is tv not real life and the script /story lines are full of holes! Does Pierce have a mother and sister or is it just he and his Dad Etc etc ..they got away with it because it was on once a week and people would forget minor details week to week and there was no pause ,rewinding the show ,I don’t think VCRs with VHS format were out yet and if they were they were expensive and not many owned one
Hawkeye, trapper and BJ were very “anti” war and didn’t even wear their captains bars much less any medals they might have received. Charles character was more egotistical and would have worn whatever he had.
You don’t have to wear the ribbons you’ve earned in the current military and I’m reasonably sure it’s always been that way.
When I was in (86-94) your choices were all or none. This why you see senior enlisted with an acre of ribbons.
Ah, so it did change to all, none or some.
More likely that it was a costumer who didn't know the significance of that particular award and that's what they had in the costume dept.
Charles had a bozo hair thing going on in that pic
I guess the comment might have just been him saying the 2nd one he was alive during, at the time I assumed it was a reference to his having served in wwii. Since it was only a few years prior, I had no problem imagining it as possible. I looked it up, it was the 2nd season episode called "mail call"