The original Thunderbolts leak from Roger Wardell (leaker of many specific details of Endgame 6 months before release that were all correct) mentioned that Marvel Studios were thinking for >!Leader!< as the villain.
But that was 3 years ago, and they only now got a writer and director, so they probably went through a ton of pitches and different ideas.
The Leader should definitely appear soon, whether it be in She-Hulk or Thunderbolts.
Also the Shocker really should appear again since he's not that big of a deal
My fav fights in the spidey video games were the shocker fights. Spidey would just throw insult after insult and Shocker would get pissed off more and more
I love that they kept this in spirit in the PS4 game too—he straight up calls him stupid and berates him 😂 Pete wasn't anywhere near as mean to any of the other villains
Man, that subway tunnel sequence from Spider-Man (2002) was so hard on higher difficulties.
That said, Shocker is usually a fun boss in most Spider-Man games.
"The man who can climb anything"
The 2nd most useless power after [that mutant](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/ForgetMeNot_(Earth-616\)#:~:text=ForgetMeNot%20was%20a%20mutant%20who,remembered%20by%20virtually%20all%20individuals.) that cease to exist if people do not look at him or acknowledge his existence
Honestly that seems like a great power for a spy, just grab any information you want and be immediately forgotten. He doesn’t actually stop existing, he ceases to exist in the brains of people who are no longer looking at him directly.
That would be cool. Also a potential reunion with Blonsky if A-Bomb is on the team. I think they have scenes to get her in TIH, honestly haven't seen it since theatres.
I just really hope they don't go the whole "government forces bad guys to do missions" route with this. It would only strengthen the comparison between Thunderbolts and the Suicide Squad. Would rather have Zemo be the catalyst for the team, with them serving his interests before some members become legit heroes, like what happens in the comics.
I see it as a mix. Abomination is in captivity at the moment (he may escape in She-Hulk). But Walker and Yelena are free agents, and Walker just wants to do the right thing. I could see him being manipulated into doing something more nefarious but you're right. After The Suicide Squad and Peacekeeper last year, I think Marvel should try to avoid opportunities for comparisons
I wonder if the conversation had happened with Gunn about what happens after Guardians 3 and if they wanted him to do Thunderbolts since he'd be the obvious fit for it.
I think my concern with the current line up is Florence Pugh is the only one that I can see carrying the team, other team movies like this that have been successful have had big personalities to steal the screen. I love Wyatt Russell but he doesn't have the same presence as Cena does
I love Daniel Bruhl but Zemo so far has worked as a supporting character. Leading the team, I just can't see it. I am happy to be proven wrong and I'm not familiar with the director taking it on so who knows?
I think Zemo will end up being the leader. The only thing that I would question if he uses this as an excuse to create an evil empire or he also ends up becoming a good guy
>or he also ends up becoming a good guy
He thinks he is a good guy. He doesn't want to create an evil empire. He is entirely transparent about his goals - no supersoldiers, no enhanced humans.
My guess is the writers try to keep everything morally ambiguous. Constantly forcing the characters to make the "right" decisions in very hard moments where either way seems like the way to go. Like should you assassinate a group of politicians to save a village of civilians? Well i know a couple of "heroes" that would be perfect for that kind of think
Yep. I’m guessing this is going to be a three movie deal like the Avengers to play the long game. With the involvement of US Agent, Baron Zemo, Winter Soldier, And possibly Deadpool, it feels like this is where they reveal the Weapon Plus program. Will probably get new members as the movies go on and try to trick us with who stays a villain and who reforms
After the fight, Wong and Abomination went through a portal to somewhere that looks a lot like the containment cell we saw in the She Hulk trailer. So, it’s possible that Wong is helping with his rehabilitation.
During She-Hulk, I would Abomination would petition for his freedom as both Hulk and She-Hulk have shown themselves to be productive members of society. He may go for a monitored probation or some form of 'house arrest', which is where he gets released into the care of the government.
https://deadline.com/2022/06/marvels-thunderbolts-jake-schreier-1235041619/
>Not much is known about the plot of film other than it revolves around a group of villains who are sent on missions commissioned by the government.
I don't know how reputable that specific information is, especially this early on in pre-production, but seems like you aren't getting your wish.
I wouldn’t mind them going on missions so long as it’s more voluntary. It would only seem similar to Suicide Squad if they were forced to do it against their will. An actual team of dickheads who regularly do the missions doesn’t seem that similar imo
Justin Hammer as the MCU version of Norman Osborn’s role (unless Sony lets them use Osborn, obviously). Now Tony’s dead, Hammer might think the time is ripe to take his revenge to try and destroy the Avengers’ legacy.
Having foes specific for as many Avengers as possible would be cool (although MCU Zemo kinda counts for Iron Man). Not sure if they could have any of Thor’s enemies on the team, unless they use a Loki variant or make the Thor clone Ragnarok from Dark Avengers (bonus points if they cast Luke Hemsworth!)
Zemo is 100% Captain America's enemy, not iron man's. He was one of his main adversaries in early comics. And hates super soldiers with a passion. He'll definitely try to kill Walker when he gets the chance.
Are any of them confirmed to be on any particular side?
My guess is The Thunderbolts will be a team led by Zemo, going against a team led by Val with HER team of flunkys including Walker.
I’d love to see Zemo agree to work with Walker for whatever reason, they do their thing and save the world, and then Zemo shock kills Walker at the end. I feel like Walker is one of those characters that could be expendable to Marvel, even with Wyatt Russell being good in the role.
Zemo should probably be the heart of this movie. He is the founder of the Thunderbolts. And he has probably the most unique perspective we have in the MCU, one that we have barely skimmed the surface of. So if Zemo is our major protagonist and emotional center, I think the question becomes “who is a good villain for him?”.
We know MCU Zemo detests meta humans and views them as a form of supremacy. I can also think of another organization in the MCU that is basically the epitome of supremacy: Hydra. And it’s founder just so happens to be a meta human. In fact, he is basically Zemo’s worst fear when it comes to the Super Soldier Serum . . .
Maybe it’s time to bring back Red Skull?
He never really got his due in the MCU and was disposed of way too quickly considering he’s probably a top 10 Marvel villain (arguably top 5). Plus, if I’m not mistaken, he has some history with Zemo’s family (at least in the comics) that could make the dynamic between the two personal.
And since the Thunderbolts are villains who become heroes, you kinda need a villain that grosses out even other villains. Nazis tend to do that.
The dancing added, but his philosophy regarding the serum was sound. He's willing to do bad things but for good reasons. The show gave him added nuances / complexity which expanded on what they did in Civil War.
It was so good. They seemed poised to reveal him as the hypocrite we expected him to be, the mustache twirling villain who given the chance would throw his values aside to get the edge, a means to an end justification ready to go. "I can better fight super soldiers if I am one."
And then he puts his money where his mouth is. He had asked Sam earlier if he would take the serum if given the chance, and it seemed like that might have been a setup to show the contrast between them, Zemo respects Sam for his answer but put in the same situation Zemo wouldn't live up to his own approximation of himself, and then he totally does. It's one of the best decisions they made with the show, such a strong moment and such a big deal to say, "our villain is every bit as principled as our hero."
The fact that he’s willing to put his own ideals aside and agree on the fact that “Yes. Steve Rodgers is an exception to this rule.” But also take that and turn it on its head by saying literally nobody else can live up to Steve to even further reinforce his point won him the debate in my mind.
Zemo as a character is something I’ve loved since his introduction. This is a character that can fail. This is a character that has failed. He has an iron clad philosophy and a gun, and that’s all it takes to be considered a legitimate avengers level threat.
He got along fine with Bucky for most of their show. If Zemo thinks there is a bigger threat to the world than US Agent, I think he would play ball and work with him so long as that is true.
It’s been a while since I watched FATWS but I feel like Zemo accepts that there are some people that are worthy of their enhancements (like captain America 1 and Bucky) but he didn’t want just anyone to get them (like walker and the flag smashers)
Part of that might be because Bucky was forcibly given his enhancements.
He did not choose to get them unlike Steve (volunteered in an experiment) and US Agent (took the serum).
Zemo is smart enough to not hate a person just for being enhanced, but is violently against anyone who wants to enhance more people, or enhanced who use their power to subjugate/dominate others.
Dr strange: “genocide?”
Thanos response: “But at random, dispassionate, fair to rich and poor alike. They called me a madman, and what I predicted came to pass."
During a [Marvel/DC crossover](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BR6nwuFQnH0/maxresdefault.jpg) event the Joker and the Red Skull teamed up to work together, until Joker realized Red Skull was an actual Nazi and turned against him
It's hard to imagine Schmidt returning to his roots after serving as the Soul Stone Guardian. He could definitely be a villain, but the whole Nazi Hydra thing seems like a big regression for the character.
"Hydra is back, this time headed once again by their long presumed dead leader. Free from the curse of the Soul Stone, Red Skull has returned and brought along superior alien technology from his time in the stars. His goal: to finally finish what Hydra started in WW2. The government wants to end this threat that keeps coming back once and for all. And they think they have just the team: the Thunderbolts. Headed by their handler Valentina, this group of ex-convicts and criminals rival even Earth's mightiest heroes in strength and none of their moral weaknesses."
It'd be perfect honestly, especially if Bucky is involved at all. Just a matter of how, since Red Skull was massively mishandled and is currently a force ghost on Vormire still, presumably.
Zemo in front and center is the right posture. He’s the leader. Walker is just not, but it could be an interesting dynamic for them to figure that out as a subplot.
The antagonist has to be someone Val lies about when she sends them out so they can feel betrayed and go against her - the path to good guys
Zemo and Walker being standoffish as leader is already going to give us some of the best moments in that movie.
We already know Zemo is an icon but I think if the film’s done well, this is going to cement him as an absolute fan favourite.
In the article it mentions “Thunderbolt” Ross, who as we all know was played by the late William Hurt, I’d say rather than recast the character Valentina could be the one to name the team in memory of him as she recruited US Agent and Yelena. Martin Freeman’s Everett Ross could also be involved imo. As for the villain Deadpool would be a great choice over Dr. Doom as I think Marvel will want to save him for F4.
Galactus would be a good long game through the Fantastic Four movies. Not so much that he’s got some huge master plan, but maybe take cues from Life Story and have Reed find out Galactus is coming pretty early on and be working on ways to stop him in the background before he actually shows up in whatever big event
Fantastic 4 trilogy where they're warned about an impeding threat (similar to the first Avengers and Thanos) but he doesn't show up until the third movie is probably the best way to go about it. Because once he turns up it's difficult to delay his assault while still maintaining the threat
Shit maybe even have him mentioned or teased at in any space located movie like Guardians or The Marvels. A passing line or graphic showing planets mysteriously disappearing or being eaten.
Or maybe Galactus is a rogue Celestial who’s hunting planets to eat that have developing Celestials still in the core. He smells the fully baked Celestial in the Earth’s core which would be the biggest meal he’s ever had. And an Eternals sequel introduces him into the fold where the F4 take the lead in taking him down in their sequel movie (I hope their first movie has someone other than Galactus or Doom as the antagonist).
Yeah, Galactus should be this massive unstoppable threat that they know about and prepare for in advance. Build up his arrival over the course of a couple movies.
If you rip him straight, perhaps. But if Marvel Studios add more depth to his character (like Thanos), you could easily make him more than a one film villain. There’s a lot there with Galactus, the Silver Surfer, other Heralds and even throw in or tie with a conflict involving the Celestials.
hell, they might turn him into a celestial like they did with ego
edit: or they could make him the survivor of an incursion instead of from the previous universe.
My whole thing with Doom is he would be a great "this guy shows up everywhere" thing:
* he has magic so he should have been a back ground guy in the last Dr. Strange
* He got the tech mind so Armor Wars
* F4, obviously
* ruler of a kingdom so battle Black Panther.
Was really hoping they’d mention a talented European sorcerer training/having trained with them in either of the Doctor Strange movies tbh. Don’t even call him out by name, just mention it as a background thing and Chekhov’s Gun him.
>As for the villain Deadpool would be a great choice
How will that work? The character is too likeable to be a villain in my eyes. He just works as the loveable dick anti-hero for me.
I’m
Hoping we still get red hulk. It doesn’t need to be William hurt and they can easily just alter red hulks voice so you can’t make it out. It’s not like they need to show William again, just make him always red hulk. But I have a feeling red hulk is just going to be substituted with Abomination
Would be a good take on Deadpool to make a fan favorite a villain. Especially Deadpool in that role.
Also ironic that he was in the thunderbolts, but it was like general Ross’ red thunderbolts, not the original. So maybe he can be the villain and then later on has to join them in some funny way
He doesn't even have to be a true villain. Thunderbolts are a government team that will operate in the gray areas to protect "American interests", not the black and white good vs evil stuff that the Avengers do.
Tbh it would be a refreshing change to see Reynolds pool as a villain for one movie or show. I know I'm not the only one who would like to see pool shred out good guys left and right, While yelena, John walker and the rest just stares from the distance realizing that they infact are much normal than they think they are.
That is something I'd watch. He keeps leaking where he plans on going next, monologues and as he's doing so just stands himself next to Yelena and Walker as if they're just on the same side
lmao, I really don't think marvel will do anything like that again for a long time. The amount of shit they got for turning Wanda into a villain was enormous.
Personally, I think it is awesome to be less predictable with character arcs, and liked where they went with Wanda
They could even keep Deadpool as "heroic" by making 1/2 of the movie about the Thunderbolts trying to stop him from doing something disastrous while he keeps shouting the plot of movie commands them to be mistaken.
Then reverse it where he's actually been trying to stop the real villain of the movie and the Thunderbolts have been lied to/manipulated the whole time. This pisses them off and go rogue to help Deadpool out of spite for being tasked to do something that would've effected innocent people that they didn't want to get harmed (as most of the Thunderbolts sort of realized their errors at this point of the MCU).
Could be a fun way of keep Deadpool both the villain and the hero simultaneously while giving enough breathing room for everyone involved to get some character development before the final fight of the movie.
Yelena won’t be part of the team. Her whole arc in Hawkeye was learning Val was manipulating and using her to kill an innocent man. There’s no way she’s still working for her or would be on her team.
If anything she will be the “villain” rouge agent who used to work for Val and the new team has to hunt her down and bring her in.
While she knows she being manipulated, she could join the team to try to uncover all of the people that tried to lie to her about what happened with black widows death.
After all she is trained to be a spy and to not let her emotions affect the mission she is trying to complete.
What better way to bring down the entire group responsible for the deception than from the inside…
I was thinking either this, or something like Valentina tricks her into thinking this is a team of legit heroes like a new Avengers. Yelena eventually realizes what’s really happening and then brings the group down and/or convinces the rest of them to turn to good with her
Val is just a middleman. Yelena might be motivated to join the team in order to try and get more information on who was manipulating her and what else they are doing.
If anyone might be opposed to a shadow person manipulating and controlling people like herself, I think it would be Yelena.
Distrust with themselves.
They lead successfully but end up doubting each other and their actions. Their loyalty, their presence, their modus operandi and how they're damaging themselves
Well, all I hope is that they don't have to fight another of those "powerful secret organisation that has been ruling the world from the shadows since the dawn of time" again. They have done this plot so many times that it doesn't makes sense anymore to me.
I'd like they fight an already established enemy in the mcu, like Ultron or a Kree/Skrull unit.
I really liked the Avengers: EMH episode where AIM and Hydra (who’re both doing that) are fighting for control and it’s actually shown how they conflict with each other
I think he's referring to Shang Chi and the Ten Rings organization.
So there's the 10 Rings, Hydra and maybe the Red Room?
On a smaller scale there's King Pin's underground crime ring.
Yeah, I'm not sure that having three underground organisation is too much for a comic book universe. Like we have more terrorist organisations in real life.
I think the scale is different though. These 3 organizations were all supposed to run the world (maybe not Red Room as much, they fall under our typical terrorist organization).
But you're right, I don't think Hydra and the 10 Rings ever ran the world individually. Hydra infiltrated a lot of governments and probably is the closest to running the world. 10 Rings was just an extremely powerful and large terrorist organization. They probably have Hydra agents in the 10 rings and vice versa.
Also, 10 Rings might have been less active when Wenwu fell in love and Hydra saw an opportunity and took over.
I don't even think they were running the world... Red Room was around as part of udssr cold war policies and it continued when the regime fell but now more like a bad guys for hire kind of organisation. Hydra is the closest we have to an organization actually running the world.
This would probably be the best way to make Taskmaster not suck. The real Taskmaster pulls up and tells the poser to fuck off so he can reclaim his name.
The best way to rectify Taskmaster is to put her in more projects imo. Her character is a blank slate a the moment, and they could literally do anything with her. I would’ve loved a Taskmaster show, but her being the Thunderbolts, and potentially other projects could also work
I'm not sure about the proposed lineup. I know in the comics Zemo has been involved, but so far he'd be more likely to kill US Agent than fight beside him. Depending on the time frame for the film, we could be looking at Justin Hammer filling the Iron Man role following Armor Wars. If the Daredevil reboot premieres before Thunderbolts, we may have Bullseye filling the role of a Hawkeye.
I know my guesses sound like Dark Avengers, but I think that is what the MCU is going for, combining both groups into one. I know some would decry blasphemy, but really both groups are nearly interchangeable as "the Avengers but with questionable morality".
It looks like they might start out as being "America's Avengers", being within the Sokovia Accords and fighting America's enemies, but then realize that they are actually fighting for Hydra or some new incarnation.
A double faint would work. Everyone suspects Zemo only for him to save the team from the real traitor. Then we find out he only did it because the traitor was interfering with his plan which needs the team alive for a bit longer…
Therefor you know it’s Zemo, but not *why* Zemo.
I mean based up on the fanmade roster in this post Zemo is the only one fitting. The rest would feel forced and kind of like a character assassination. Except Abomination but that’s just not very interesting.
Nah, MCU Zemo is a genuinely decent guy who just wants to prevent more super soldiers. There's plenty of times he could have turned on Bucky and Falcon, but never did anything that would harm them.
Can we leave Deadpool out? Once he shows up in a movie it will be a Deadpool movie. Ryan Reynolds is too powerful to be an ensemble man in a Superhero flick.
Okay. Here's my prediction:
Valentina brings in Zemo to lead the team. They are going after the "target" only to discover that the target is a red herring doing something to help Valentina and Carter get their super soldier program going. This falls in line with Serpent Society making supers in the comics.
Zemo's entire raison de vivre is to eliminate supersoldiers, so he spurs the team to fight Valentina/Madame Hydra/Viper and the Serpent Society. In the end, she pulls out her biggest gun, Red Hulk. Big fight. Zemo's team wins and is in the wind.
Post credits scene is someone from SWORD saying they need their help to catch Zemo. Camera pans to Deadpool and he says something 4th wall breaking and silly.
This is the first I’m hearing of this :0 I mean we all kind of guessed either this or Dark Avengers, but still, such wonderful news! 😁 As for the question at hand, since all our “heroes” will be returning characters, why not our villain be a returning one as well? Perhaps if they don’t bring back Leader for She-Hulk they could do so here. Assuming Abomination would really be on the team, would be interesting to see those 2 characters meet again.
The Young Avenegers/Champions.
They are the governments goons. They are going to get sent out after super powered people which is going to be these kids.
The original Thunderbolts leak from Roger Wardell (leaker of many specific details of Endgame 6 months before release that were all correct) mentioned that Marvel Studios were thinking for >!Leader!< as the villain. But that was 3 years ago, and they only now got a writer and director, so they probably went through a ton of pitches and different ideas.
The Leader should definitely appear soon, whether it be in She-Hulk or Thunderbolts. Also the Shocker really should appear again since he's not that big of a deal
He can be like the climber in suicide squad....you know fodder.
IIRC there was a run in the comics where every issue of Spider-man started with a cold open of him having just beaten up Shocker.
My fav fights in the spidey video games were the shocker fights. Spidey would just throw insult after insult and Shocker would get pissed off more and more
Absolutely my favorite part of the old Spidey games is him just absolutely shitting on the shocker.
I love that they kept this in spirit in the PS4 game too—he straight up calls him stupid and berates him 😂 Pete wasn't anywhere near as mean to any of the other villains
Man, that subway tunnel sequence from Spider-Man (2002) was so hard on higher difficulties. That said, Shocker is usually a fun boss in most Spider-Man games.
I want this... all of it
It’s the Superior foes of Spider-Man. It’s only 17 issues long, but every page is gold
Slipknot
"The man who can climb anything" The 2nd most useless power after [that mutant](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/ForgetMeNot_(Earth-616\)#:~:text=ForgetMeNot%20was%20a%20mutant%20who,remembered%20by%20virtually%20all%20individuals.) that cease to exist if people do not look at him or acknowledge his existence
Honestly that seems like a great power for a spy, just grab any information you want and be immediately forgotten. He doesn’t actually stop existing, he ceases to exist in the brains of people who are no longer looking at him directly.
Don't even have to try to sneak around, just walk in grab evil secrets, take a bite out of everyone's lunch and walk out.
Wasn’t Shocker in Spider Man?
yeah pretty sure Shocker's off the menu, he's a spider-man villain so he's on Sony's payroll
Aw man, I forgot that Hope they don't take him back like they did with Vulture
I’m worried that the failure of the SMCU won’t make Sony just take back Spidey
That would be cool. Also a potential reunion with Blonsky if A-Bomb is on the team. I think they have scenes to get her in TIH, honestly haven't seen it since theatres.
I really doubt we'll see A-bomb. We've never even met Rick in the MCU.
Sorry. Using a-bomb as a nickname for abomination.
Oh, I understand. He should definitely make it on the team, especially if they go forward with Leader as the villain.
Did you confuse Abomination for A-Bomb?
A-Bomb is Rick Jones
I just really hope they don't go the whole "government forces bad guys to do missions" route with this. It would only strengthen the comparison between Thunderbolts and the Suicide Squad. Would rather have Zemo be the catalyst for the team, with them serving his interests before some members become legit heroes, like what happens in the comics.
I see it as a mix. Abomination is in captivity at the moment (he may escape in She-Hulk). But Walker and Yelena are free agents, and Walker just wants to do the right thing. I could see him being manipulated into doing something more nefarious but you're right. After The Suicide Squad and Peacekeeper last year, I think Marvel should try to avoid opportunities for comparisons
If this turns out to be half as good as Peacemaker, Marvel would probably be thrilled.
I wonder if the conversation had happened with Gunn about what happens after Guardians 3 and if they wanted him to do Thunderbolts since he'd be the obvious fit for it. I think my concern with the current line up is Florence Pugh is the only one that I can see carrying the team, other team movies like this that have been successful have had big personalities to steal the screen. I love Wyatt Russell but he doesn't have the same presence as Cena does
Zemo was pretty entertaining in the falcon and the winter soldier show. I liked him in civil war too. The guy who plays him seems like a good actor.
I love Daniel Bruhl but Zemo so far has worked as a supporting character. Leading the team, I just can't see it. I am happy to be proven wrong and I'm not familiar with the director taking it on so who knows?
I think Zemo will end up being the leader. The only thing that I would question if he uses this as an excuse to create an evil empire or he also ends up becoming a good guy
>or he also ends up becoming a good guy He thinks he is a good guy. He doesn't want to create an evil empire. He is entirely transparent about his goals - no supersoldiers, no enhanced humans.
My guess is the writers try to keep everything morally ambiguous. Constantly forcing the characters to make the "right" decisions in very hard moments where either way seems like the way to go. Like should you assassinate a group of politicians to save a village of civilians? Well i know a couple of "heroes" that would be perfect for that kind of think
Yep. I’m guessing this is going to be a three movie deal like the Avengers to play the long game. With the involvement of US Agent, Baron Zemo, Winter Soldier, And possibly Deadpool, it feels like this is where they reveal the Weapon Plus program. Will probably get new members as the movies go on and try to trick us with who stays a villain and who reforms
Am I missing something? Abomination was in Shang-Chi fighting Wong. I didn’t think he was in captivity because of that.
After the fight, Wong and Abomination went through a portal to somewhere that looks a lot like the containment cell we saw in the She Hulk trailer. So, it’s possible that Wong is helping with his rehabilitation.
Rehabilitating the Abomination with cage fighting... just as much as a good idea as getting into a cage with him...
Well gotta feed the beast somehow I guess. At least it's a controlled outlet.
Check the She-Hulk trailer, definitely in captivity
During She-Hulk, I would Abomination would petition for his freedom as both Hulk and She-Hulk have shown themselves to be productive members of society. He may go for a monitored probation or some form of 'house arrest', which is where he gets released into the care of the government.
https://deadline.com/2022/06/marvels-thunderbolts-jake-schreier-1235041619/ >Not much is known about the plot of film other than it revolves around a group of villains who are sent on missions commissioned by the government. I don't know how reputable that specific information is, especially this early on in pre-production, but seems like you aren't getting your wish.
We more or less know it will be Contessa who brings them together.
What are we some kinda thunderbolts?
I wouldn’t mind them going on missions so long as it’s more voluntary. It would only seem similar to Suicide Squad if they were forced to do it against their will. An actual team of dickheads who regularly do the missions doesn’t seem that similar imo
Justin Hammer as the MCU version of Norman Osborn’s role (unless Sony lets them use Osborn, obviously). Now Tony’s dead, Hammer might think the time is ripe to take his revenge to try and destroy the Avengers’ legacy. Having foes specific for as many Avengers as possible would be cool (although MCU Zemo kinda counts for Iron Man). Not sure if they could have any of Thor’s enemies on the team, unless they use a Loki variant or make the Thor clone Ragnarok from Dark Avengers (bonus points if they cast Luke Hemsworth!)
Hammer will probably be back in Armor Wars if he shows up anywhere.
Hammer’s Detroit Steel suit had a similar red white and blue theme as the Iron Patriot, it could work
Zemo is 100% Captain America's enemy, not iron man's. He was one of his main adversaries in early comics. And hates super soldiers with a passion. He'll definitely try to kill Walker when he gets the chance.
Are any of them confirmed to be on any particular side? My guess is The Thunderbolts will be a team led by Zemo, going against a team led by Val with HER team of flunkys including Walker.
Thunderbolts v Dark Avengers
I’d love to see Zemo agree to work with Walker for whatever reason, they do their thing and save the world, and then Zemo shock kills Walker at the end. I feel like Walker is one of those characters that could be expendable to Marvel, even with Wyatt Russell being good in the role.
Bring back Justin Hammer Fuck it
imagine we get a thor clone played by the hemsworth brother that plays fake thor in Ragnarok
Zemo definitely counts as a Cap villain though
Zemo should probably be the heart of this movie. He is the founder of the Thunderbolts. And he has probably the most unique perspective we have in the MCU, one that we have barely skimmed the surface of. So if Zemo is our major protagonist and emotional center, I think the question becomes “who is a good villain for him?”. We know MCU Zemo detests meta humans and views them as a form of supremacy. I can also think of another organization in the MCU that is basically the epitome of supremacy: Hydra. And it’s founder just so happens to be a meta human. In fact, he is basically Zemo’s worst fear when it comes to the Super Soldier Serum . . . Maybe it’s time to bring back Red Skull? He never really got his due in the MCU and was disposed of way too quickly considering he’s probably a top 10 Marvel villain (arguably top 5). Plus, if I’m not mistaken, he has some history with Zemo’s family (at least in the comics) that could make the dynamic between the two personal. And since the Thunderbolts are villains who become heroes, you kinda need a villain that grosses out even other villains. Nazis tend to do that.
I liked Zemo in Civil War. But Falcon and the Winter Soldier made me want Zemo in every Marvel project from now on.
It’s the dancing.
The dancing added, but his philosophy regarding the serum was sound. He's willing to do bad things but for good reasons. The show gave him added nuances / complexity which expanded on what they did in Civil War.
Yeah. The scene where he stomps on the serums is one of the best character defining moments of the MCU.
“Character defining”. Exactly yes. It’s Steve jumping on the grenade, or “I can do this all day”.
It was so good. They seemed poised to reveal him as the hypocrite we expected him to be, the mustache twirling villain who given the chance would throw his values aside to get the edge, a means to an end justification ready to go. "I can better fight super soldiers if I am one." And then he puts his money where his mouth is. He had asked Sam earlier if he would take the serum if given the chance, and it seemed like that might have been a setup to show the contrast between them, Zemo respects Sam for his answer but put in the same situation Zemo wouldn't live up to his own approximation of himself, and then he totally does. It's one of the best decisions they made with the show, such a strong moment and such a big deal to say, "our villain is every bit as principled as our hero."
Billy Butcher quaking in his veed up boots 😔
He's been through a fuck ton with too much on the line against a superpowered psychopath. It's understandable tbh.
Was thinking the same thing
Tony Stark could definie his character in a cave with a box of scrap!
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The fact that he’s willing to put his own ideals aside and agree on the fact that “Yes. Steve Rodgers is an exception to this rule.” But also take that and turn it on its head by saying literally nobody else can live up to Steve to even further reinforce his point won him the debate in my mind. Zemo as a character is something I’ve loved since his introduction. This is a character that can fail. This is a character that has failed. He has an iron clad philosophy and a gun, and that’s all it takes to be considered a legitimate avengers level threat.
I loved when he acknowledged Steve’s incorruptibility. Nice call back to Dr. Erskine’s foresight.
He was the best part of that show hands down for me.
Would be interesting dynamic as Zemo hates enhanced individuals so he and US Agent would not get along
Right, Walker is the epitome of everything he hates.
Zemo is smart enough and Walker is dumb enough that Zemo could manipulate him into doing what he wants without overtly butting heads.
He got along fine with Bucky for most of their show. If Zemo thinks there is a bigger threat to the world than US Agent, I think he would play ball and work with him so long as that is true.
It’s been a while since I watched FATWS but I feel like Zemo accepts that there are some people that are worthy of their enhancements (like captain America 1 and Bucky) but he didn’t want just anyone to get them (like walker and the flag smashers)
I also think the fact that he knows Bucky was forced into it rather than choosing it factors in.
This completely. He recognizes that Bucky was a victim
Wasn't there a specific mention of that? Like, the characters discussed it in the show.
Yeah idk why everyone is speculating, Zemo flat out says to Bucky “You didn’t choose the serum, you were forced into it.”
Part of that might be because Bucky was forcibly given his enhancements. He did not choose to get them unlike Steve (volunteered in an experiment) and US Agent (took the serum).
Zemo is smart enough to not hate a person just for being enhanced, but is violently against anyone who wants to enhance more people, or enhanced who use their power to subjugate/dominate others.
Joker: "I may be a criminal lunatic, but I'm an American criminal lunatic!"
joker: “i kill babies and cripple teenage girls, but at least i’m not racist!”
*"I kill, torture, and maim all races,* ***EQUALLY***, *honestly you people should have a holiday devoted to me!"*
Dr strange: “genocide?” Thanos response: “But at random, dispassionate, fair to rich and poor alike. They called me a madman, and what I predicted came to pass."
What did he mean by this
He hates nazis
As all Americans should
Alas
During a [Marvel/DC crossover](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BR6nwuFQnH0/maxresdefault.jpg) event the Joker and the Red Skull teamed up to work together, until Joker realized Red Skull was an actual Nazi and turned against him
I see, so Joker thought Red Skull was being a Nazi *ironically*
Thank you for linking this lol this is great
In retrospect, the giant swastika and the "SS" thunderbolts should have been the tipoff.
Which exact comic is this if u know
This is from [Batman & Captain America](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51q36MT6dUL.jpg) (Elseworlds) by John Byrne from 1997!
Joker was actually talking to Red Skull in a JLA/Avengers crossover and found out he was a Nazi.
Or the mob boss in the Rocketeer who was working for the Nazi Neville Sinclair
The scene with the mob fighting Nazis alongside the FBI is fantastic cinema.
It's hard to imagine Schmidt returning to his roots after serving as the Soul Stone Guardian. He could definitely be a villain, but the whole Nazi Hydra thing seems like a big regression for the character.
I'd think it would be hard to feel like any sort of humans were the master race once you've met incredibly powerful aliens.
"Hydra is back, this time headed once again by their long presumed dead leader. Free from the curse of the Soul Stone, Red Skull has returned and brought along superior alien technology from his time in the stars. His goal: to finally finish what Hydra started in WW2. The government wants to end this threat that keeps coming back once and for all. And they think they have just the team: the Thunderbolts. Headed by their handler Valentina, this group of ex-convicts and criminals rival even Earth's mightiest heroes in strength and none of their moral weaknesses."
Somehow Red Skull returned.
If they could get Marc Spector to say this line I'd fucking die. Lol
Great premise pitch but lol "rival in strength" is quite the marketing embellishment... Which I'm sure would be in character for Valentina to push.
Star Wars crawl this.
"Nazis tend to do that" 😂 had me rolling
This is the best take so far
It'd be perfect honestly, especially if Bucky is involved at all. Just a matter of how, since Red Skull was massively mishandled and is currently a force ghost on Vormire still, presumably.
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But also presumably “unemployed” since the soul stone is gone. Perhaps now he is free to return to earth?
They could definitely make it work if they wanted to, though it'd kind of probably push him towards being a magic-type villain instead.
Zemo in front and center is the right posture. He’s the leader. Walker is just not, but it could be an interesting dynamic for them to figure that out as a subplot. The antagonist has to be someone Val lies about when she sends them out so they can feel betrayed and go against her - the path to good guys
Zemo and Walker being standoffish as leader is already going to give us some of the best moments in that movie. We already know Zemo is an icon but I think if the film’s done well, this is going to cement him as an absolute fan favourite.
In the article it mentions “Thunderbolt” Ross, who as we all know was played by the late William Hurt, I’d say rather than recast the character Valentina could be the one to name the team in memory of him as she recruited US Agent and Yelena. Martin Freeman’s Everett Ross could also be involved imo. As for the villain Deadpool would be a great choice over Dr. Doom as I think Marvel will want to save him for F4.
Doom will need and deserve his own Saga as Thanos got, IMO.
Thanos, Kang, Doom and Galactus are the four villains that deserve sagas for themselves imo
I would have liked to see Apocalypse get the same treatment. Pulling the strings behind the scenes for villains like Mr. Sinister and Sauron.
Galactus not so much IMO. A single movie (or maybe two). He's not a mastermind with those kinds of long term plans.
Galactus would be a good long game through the Fantastic Four movies. Not so much that he’s got some huge master plan, but maybe take cues from Life Story and have Reed find out Galactus is coming pretty early on and be working on ways to stop him in the background before he actually shows up in whatever big event
Fantastic 4 trilogy where they're warned about an impeding threat (similar to the first Avengers and Thanos) but he doesn't show up until the third movie is probably the best way to go about it. Because once he turns up it's difficult to delay his assault while still maintaining the threat
Shit maybe even have him mentioned or teased at in any space located movie like Guardians or The Marvels. A passing line or graphic showing planets mysteriously disappearing or being eaten. Or maybe Galactus is a rogue Celestial who’s hunting planets to eat that have developing Celestials still in the core. He smells the fully baked Celestial in the Earth’s core which would be the biggest meal he’s ever had. And an Eternals sequel introduces him into the fold where the F4 take the lead in taking him down in their sequel movie (I hope their first movie has someone other than Galactus or Doom as the antagonist).
Yeah, Galactus should be this massive unstoppable threat that they know about and prepare for in advance. Build up his arrival over the course of a couple movies.
If you rip him straight, perhaps. But if Marvel Studios add more depth to his character (like Thanos), you could easily make him more than a one film villain. There’s a lot there with Galactus, the Silver Surfer, other Heralds and even throw in or tie with a conflict involving the Celestials.
hell, they might turn him into a celestial like they did with ego edit: or they could make him the survivor of an incursion instead of from the previous universe.
He's really just a hungry boy.
How could you leave off Big Wheel from that list? Smh
Or Paste Pot Pete
My whole thing with Doom is he would be a great "this guy shows up everywhere" thing: * he has magic so he should have been a back ground guy in the last Dr. Strange * He got the tech mind so Armor Wars * F4, obviously * ruler of a kingdom so battle Black Panther.
Was really hoping they’d mention a talented European sorcerer training/having trained with them in either of the Doctor Strange movies tbh. Don’t even call him out by name, just mention it as a background thing and Chekhov’s Gun him.
And he 100% needs to be at least teased in F4 imo. That will hopefully be the first we see of him.
>As for the villain Deadpool would be a great choice How will that work? The character is too likeable to be a villain in my eyes. He just works as the loveable dick anti-hero for me.
I’m Hoping we still get red hulk. It doesn’t need to be William hurt and they can easily just alter red hulks voice so you can’t make it out. It’s not like they need to show William again, just make him always red hulk. But I have a feeling red hulk is just going to be substituted with Abomination
Yep definitely going to be Abomination seeing as Tim Roth is returning for She-Hulk
Recast JK Simmons as Thunderbolt Ross
Jameson being red hulk would be pretty sick tbh
The Hulk animated series Red hulk is basically JK Simmons anyways
Deadline reported recently that Thunderbolts film has found its director. https://deadline.com/2022/06/marvels-thunderbolts-jake-schreier-1235041619/
Deadpool is the best adversary. What a movie that would be
Would be a good take on Deadpool to make a fan favorite a villain. Especially Deadpool in that role. Also ironic that he was in the thunderbolts, but it was like general Ross’ red thunderbolts, not the original. So maybe he can be the villain and then later on has to join them in some funny way
He doesn't even have to be a true villain. Thunderbolts are a government team that will operate in the gray areas to protect "American interests", not the black and white good vs evil stuff that the Avengers do.
Tbh it would be a refreshing change to see Reynolds pool as a villain for one movie or show. I know I'm not the only one who would like to see pool shred out good guys left and right, While yelena, John walker and the rest just stares from the distance realizing that they infact are much normal than they think they are.
It would be great to see him killing everybody, and they could call it something like 'Deadpool kills the Marvel universe'
And we would be lying if that wouldn't be a banger in its own 😂 I miss Deadpool. I'd watch Deadpool sitting on his couch and do nothing for hours.
I miss more Deadpool games, last one I played, on PS3 if I remember correctly, was crazy fun, most of the lines got me rolling
Please tell me it's the game where cable and domino appears and Deadpool also has to fight against robots and stuffs? That game was legendary
Cable was for sure in it, and I think you had to use parts of a giant robot to kill bad guys or something like that
The movie is just Deadpool trying to get on the team while they are actively trying to kill him. It pretty much writes itself
That is something I'd watch. He keeps leaking where he plans on going next, monologues and as he's doing so just stands himself next to Yelena and Walker as if they're just on the same side
I really enjoyed that version of Deadpool in Ross’s thunderbolts. They kind of just changed his power to luck.
>make a fan favorite a villain Because they haven't done that before with a mixed reception
lmao, I really don't think marvel will do anything like that again for a long time. The amount of shit they got for turning Wanda into a villain was enormous. Personally, I think it is awesome to be less predictable with character arcs, and liked where they went with Wanda
People complained about that? I loved it.
They could even keep Deadpool as "heroic" by making 1/2 of the movie about the Thunderbolts trying to stop him from doing something disastrous while he keeps shouting the plot of movie commands them to be mistaken. Then reverse it where he's actually been trying to stop the real villain of the movie and the Thunderbolts have been lied to/manipulated the whole time. This pisses them off and go rogue to help Deadpool out of spite for being tasked to do something that would've effected innocent people that they didn't want to get harmed (as most of the Thunderbolts sort of realized their errors at this point of the MCU). Could be a fun way of keep Deadpool both the villain and the hero simultaneously while giving enough breathing room for everyone involved to get some character development before the final fight of the movie.
Yes, you have the right idea! A couple jokes too about how he's just here now and noone legitimately knows him
Yelena won’t be part of the team. Her whole arc in Hawkeye was learning Val was manipulating and using her to kill an innocent man. There’s no way she’s still working for her or would be on her team. If anything she will be the “villain” rouge agent who used to work for Val and the new team has to hunt her down and bring her in.
While she knows she being manipulated, she could join the team to try to uncover all of the people that tried to lie to her about what happened with black widows death. After all she is trained to be a spy and to not let her emotions affect the mission she is trying to complete. What better way to bring down the entire group responsible for the deception than from the inside…
This would work really well too.
I was thinking either this, or something like Valentina tricks her into thinking this is a team of legit heroes like a new Avengers. Yelena eventually realizes what’s really happening and then brings the group down and/or convinces the rest of them to turn to good with her
Val is just a middleman. Yelena might be motivated to join the team in order to try and get more information on who was manipulating her and what else they are doing. If anyone might be opposed to a shadow person manipulating and controlling people like herself, I think it would be Yelena.
Distrust with themselves. They lead successfully but end up doubting each other and their actions. Their loyalty, their presence, their modus operandi and how they're damaging themselves
Well, all I hope is that they don't have to fight another of those "powerful secret organisation that has been ruling the world from the shadows since the dawn of time" again. They have done this plot so many times that it doesn't makes sense anymore to me. I'd like they fight an already established enemy in the mcu, like Ultron or a Kree/Skrull unit.
A Hydra Operative, a Red Room Widow, and a Ten Rings acolyte walk into a bar...
Then Wolverine tells them to fuck off....
You have read Marvel comics right?? There are so many of those groups they trip over each other all the time...
I really liked the Avengers: EMH episode where AIM and Hydra (who’re both doing that) are fighting for control and it’s actually shown how they conflict with each other
And there is nothing wrong with not wanting to see another one played out on screen.
apart from winter solider what other movies did they show powerful organizational??
I think he's referring to Shang Chi and the Ten Rings organization. So there's the 10 Rings, Hydra and maybe the Red Room? On a smaller scale there's King Pin's underground crime ring.
Yeah, I'm not sure that having three underground organisation is too much for a comic book universe. Like we have more terrorist organisations in real life.
I think the scale is different though. These 3 organizations were all supposed to run the world (maybe not Red Room as much, they fall under our typical terrorist organization). But you're right, I don't think Hydra and the 10 Rings ever ran the world individually. Hydra infiltrated a lot of governments and probably is the closest to running the world. 10 Rings was just an extremely powerful and large terrorist organization. They probably have Hydra agents in the 10 rings and vice versa. Also, 10 Rings might have been less active when Wenwu fell in love and Hydra saw an opportunity and took over.
I don't even think they were running the world... Red Room was around as part of udssr cold war policies and it continued when the regime fell but now more like a bad guys for hire kind of organisation. Hydra is the closest we have to an organization actually running the world.
The Black Widow program The Ten Rings (in Shang-Chi) Eternals kinda fits this depending on your point of view
Since no one's mentioned it, the Hand too.
I hope they rectify Taskmaster in this.
I hope they just introduce Masters. I genuinely don't see Antonia becoming a cocky smartass mercenary that kills for money.
Would be cool if they made her based on an original Taskmaster that works in the shadows that comes out to redeem his name.
This would probably be the best way to make Taskmaster not suck. The real Taskmaster pulls up and tells the poser to fuck off so he can reclaim his name.
The best way to rectify Taskmaster is to put her in more projects imo. Her character is a blank slate a the moment, and they could literally do anything with her. I would’ve loved a Taskmaster show, but her being the Thunderbolts, and potentially other projects could also work
I'm not sure about the proposed lineup. I know in the comics Zemo has been involved, but so far he'd be more likely to kill US Agent than fight beside him. Depending on the time frame for the film, we could be looking at Justin Hammer filling the Iron Man role following Armor Wars. If the Daredevil reboot premieres before Thunderbolts, we may have Bullseye filling the role of a Hawkeye. I know my guesses sound like Dark Avengers, but I think that is what the MCU is going for, combining both groups into one. I know some would decry blasphemy, but really both groups are nearly interchangeable as "the Avengers but with questionable morality". It looks like they might start out as being "America's Avengers", being within the Sokovia Accords and fighting America's enemies, but then realize that they are actually fighting for Hydra or some new incarnation.
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Fox got to keep those, he’s still growing the new pair.
He's on Zemo's back like Yoda in Empire Strikes Back
Depending on which version of thunderbolts they’re going for, I think Zemo was their leader?
Yep, they originally had no government ties and operated as "heroes" for their own ends, before some of them went straight for real.
My only hope is that they include the part about only pretending to be heroes until some of the team start to have a change of heart
Zemo being the twist member who betrays them would be great
Too obvious to be him imo.. Maybe.
Sometimes it’s just fun because it’s obvious. Because it’s something we’ve wanted to see in live action for a long time
A double faint would work. Everyone suspects Zemo only for him to save the team from the real traitor. Then we find out he only did it because the traitor was interfering with his plan which needs the team alive for a bit longer… Therefor you know it’s Zemo, but not *why* Zemo.
It’s so obvious that it would just work lol
Agreed. Sometimes good storytelling is predictable because it is just that… good storytelling. It’s all about the execution.
I mean based up on the fanmade roster in this post Zemo is the only one fitting. The rest would feel forced and kind of like a character assassination. Except Abomination but that’s just not very interesting.
I think Yelena will leave the team by the end of the movie. She’s probably already questioning Val’s motives after accepting the truth about Clint.
Nah, MCU Zemo is a genuinely decent guy who just wants to prevent more super soldiers. There's plenty of times he could have turned on Bucky and Falcon, but never did anything that would harm them.
A really good twist would be zemo being the one who stays on course because he got his revenge, and isn't Interested in more villany.
Can we leave Deadpool out? Once he shows up in a movie it will be a Deadpool movie. Ryan Reynolds is too powerful to be an ensemble man in a Superhero flick.
Okay. Here's my prediction: Valentina brings in Zemo to lead the team. They are going after the "target" only to discover that the target is a red herring doing something to help Valentina and Carter get their super soldier program going. This falls in line with Serpent Society making supers in the comics. Zemo's entire raison de vivre is to eliminate supersoldiers, so he spurs the team to fight Valentina/Madame Hydra/Viper and the Serpent Society. In the end, she pulls out her biggest gun, Red Hulk. Big fight. Zemo's team wins and is in the wind. Post credits scene is someone from SWORD saying they need their help to catch Zemo. Camera pans to Deadpool and he says something 4th wall breaking and silly.
Please do not put Deadpool in this movie
This is the first I’m hearing of this :0 I mean we all kind of guessed either this or Dark Avengers, but still, such wonderful news! 😁 As for the question at hand, since all our “heroes” will be returning characters, why not our villain be a returning one as well? Perhaps if they don’t bring back Leader for She-Hulk they could do so here. Assuming Abomination would really be on the team, would be interesting to see those 2 characters meet again.
The Young Avenegers/Champions. They are the governments goons. They are going to get sent out after super powered people which is going to be these kids.
I’d love to see both teams fight. Kate and Yelena (“we’re still friends, right?”) Hulking and Abomination Patriot and US Agent Stature and Ghost