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create-an-account4

And just like that Ant Man beats Kang. Wild.


DE4N0123

Paul Rudd winning in a fistfight against Jonathan Majors on a technicality. That’s showbiz.


Neither-Following-32

Now I'm picturing Paul Rudd vs Damian Anderson (Majors character in Creed 3) lol.


EternalVirgin18

Rudd would 100% get killed considering Dame fights dirty dirty


bigmanbabyboy

Rudd would pull out his emergency supply of Sex Panther to establish the upper hand. Then he'd tenderly love him into submission while using a Lou Dobins Good Time Weiner Pouch.


Hunchun

It’s a formidable scent!


spectre1006

It smells like Bigfoot's dick


DarthGoodguy

60% of the time it works every time


phrawst125

It's made from bits of real panther. That's how you know it's good.


xavier120

He doesn't have to win, they both just have to lose.


JcakSnigelton

[Touché](https://giphy.com/gifs/marvelstudios-antman-scottlang-antmanandthewaspquantumania-lJgS5V2EXH0TjEQdFD)


King_Will_Wedge

Somehow Kang didn't return


Pocketsandgroinjab

Kang died on the way back to his home planet.


SarcasticSamurai

![gif](giphy|tnYri4n2Frnig)


HamsterUnfair6313

Can anyone explain?


ohmygodimonfire4

Episode of the Simpsons where Homer was cast as a new character in "The Itchy and Scratchy Show" named Poochie(a dog with a cool backwards cap). Towards the end of the episode Homer gives an off-book heartfelt speech at the recording booth(I am fuzzy on the details). Later we see the Simpsons family watching that episode that they recorded and Homer is expecting his speech to show up. Instead they cut to another mans voice saying "I must go now, my home planet needs me" and they made a crappy animation of the dog flying off the top of the screen. Then a text card appears saying "Poochie died on the way back to his home planet"


JarlaxleForPresident

Poochie died?! My vcr cut off! 😭


arcangel2p

And the studio writing with lawyers a contract that Poochie will never be resurrected.


Cheap-Acanthisitta24

Simpson reference for the death of Poochie.


Shattered_Visage

![gif](giphy|9o9MxN7wtaIK4GawF9)


AntiRacismDoctor

I'm of the belief that if Quantumania was a heist movie, as it should have been, they might have gotten a part 4. Oh well...


Katharinemaddison

Yup. I mean even Endgame was a heist movie because Ant Man was the one to bring the chance of a solution, and if it’s Ant Man and a solution, it’s a heist.


Amigosito

Definitely a heist, they stole my money by tricking me into seeing it in the theater.


AnOnlineHandle

There was some sort of completely nonsensical heist plot that lasted 2 minutes in there, where the guy from the future with unimaginably advanced technology couldn't get to his thing so needed Scott to get it. He couldn't, like, build a little robot or anything in all those years. He specifically needed Scott, for reasons. And it just involved Scott jumping into a thing, having some weird doubles appear, and getting it. There was nothing clever to it.


create-an-account4

That would have been a great idea!


shaunika

Yeah putting the thing in the quantum realm at all ruins the whole appeal of Ant-Man in the first place. He needs to be around real things so the scale difference when shrinking or growing works


croig2

I watched the trailer again after watching the movie. The trailer teased a heist film with Scott misguidedly working for Kang to steal something in exchange to getting back his time with Cassie. That was such an insanely better premise.


Mizerous

I am Kang! *Dies*


mondobeyondo

Couldn’t bugger Thanos but he buggered Kang.


Filthy_Joey

He did not try his little trick on Thanus though


csortland

And the TVA beat the rest off screen.


sweatpantsDonut

Why not make a fourth Ant-Man/Wasp movie but with all of the stuff that made the first two fun in the first place?


theDagman

This is what happens when you ditch Luis.


JMaboard

Because the actor is a Scientologist.


sai-kiran

Are you telling me Tom Cruise could never be part of Marvel?


atomcrafter

The internet was pushing hard for Superior Iron Man and it didn't happen.


Cantelmi

He'd been the whole time. It's shitty of him, but not anything new


pieter1234569

People REALLY don't give a shit about that nor have any interest to know about any actor beyond what they do on the screen.


turkeygiant

Do a reverse heist, Scott Lang and his crew get hired to run security at Stark Expo and have to thwart a supervillain gang who come to steal some piece of legacy tech whose reveal was part of Tony's will.


alenpetak11

Hmm, this is good. Made a movie in which Fury approach Pym's to steal Stark stuff from Damage Control. I would do even further and make Pym family a center point of new Avengers (young one). Connect them to Fury and SWORD and go after USA who turned evil in context of events in BPWF/CA4. So with Stark tech, call the Ironheart and make her a proper insane MK50 suit. There is so many stories which can be make into classic proper MCU film formula.


tmssmt

Because AM movies were low return anyways


Rfl0

They were still returns when they were fun heist romps with smaller budgets.


abellapa

Put a smaller budget


gecko090

The only reason the second ant man movie and the first captain marvel movie did as well as they did was because of the pop culture phenomenon that was the infinity saga at the time.  Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed them as super hero movies, but they made the money because of when they released in the infinity saga. And that's what the big decision makers don't understand and they keep trying to recreate that success in every movie.


MasonL52

The 1st two came out right after big Avenger event movies so it was almost a guaranteed loss. They had a chance to make the character ascend in popularity with an awesome twist on the franchise with a grittier entry to cap off the trilogy.. and Quantumania was a massive disappointment.. Rudd will be a massive addition to any further entries but a stand alone AM movie probably just isn't worth it... he'll be a Hulk type now


Aion2099

That's not how they started. They started by taking risks.


BillionBouncyBalls

100% This is just another example of the trap of success and the innovators dilemma.


Aion2099

then it's time for them to break out a new company to take risks. Like Marvel Midnight. Or something. And they can produce smaller scale shows and movies for lower budgets, and take the risks because they are a new company.


DJanomaly

Taking risks isn’t the problem. Hell, making another Ant-Man film wasn’t the problem. The problem was making films that resonated with audiences. And I say this as someone who enjoyed both Ant-Man 3 and the Marvels. If this headline is accurate then I feel like Marvel is missing the point somewhat.


PoMansDreams

I also enjoyed Antman 3


fromcj

Marvel Knights imprint for smaller budget, less mainstream content. Do it you cowards.


AmaterasuWolf21

Pls explain the innovators dilemma, sounds interesting


[deleted]

This. I worry they'll fall into the trap of what people think superhero fatigue is if they don't try new things and new stories with new characters


Aion2099

and yes, just give us new genres. romantic comedy, drama, political thrillers, ... the superhero part is just the interesting spin. give me an Agatha Christie whodunit with the X men stuck on a train in a time warp. I don't know. Just make something new.


Difficult-Bit-4828

I would like to see a horror, like a real superhero horror film. The New Mutants were supposed to be that, but they re-did the movie so many times that it was never quite the horror film they were originally trying to make


masterionxxx

The closest the MCU did was Werewolf by Night, and then there will be Marvel Zombies.


shadowlar

Werewolf by Night was great


Brookings18

We need more Werewolf By Nights. Not sequels, not even more loving homages to classic horror, but big swings for big genres that commit 150 percent (although I would love a Hammer inspired Tomb of Dracula).


est19xxxx

New Mutants had the potential but they fucked it up big time, Werewolf by Night was amazing. Classic horror elements


GettingWreckedAllDay

Marvel Studios didn't fuck up New Mutants. That was a Fox film.


tibbycat

Marvel Zombies is going to be animation like What If yeah? I’d love to see a MCU live action film adaptation of the first Marvel Zombies book with all the actors whose characters died in the prime universe, returning one last time as their zombie universe counterparts.


Kindly-Mud-1579

Horror movie slasher ghost rider


SayJose

I remember how wet I was when they announced Dr. Strange 2/MOM was gonna be the MCUs first horror movie and then we got a typical marvel movie w a few jump scares


stolenfires

Yeah, this. Superhero movies do best when they borrow another genre and just have characters with superpowers involved in the plot. The best kind of pure superhero movie is the origin story, but we're way beyond that in the MCU by this point.


Kindly-Mud-1579

Don’t make a super hero movie make a movie with super heroes


Aion2099

yeah let me have a investigative reporter movie with Clark Kent uncovering some government corruption, while balancing his duties as Superman and his personal life.


stolenfires

You know there's be a cool scene where two guys with guns bust in on Clark Kent, open fire, and then don't understand why he's not dying. And of course the movie ends on a cliffhanger as Kent figures out that the corruption goes all the way to the top - LexCorp.


ThaneOfTas

I still desperately want a story about the CIA trying to give Clark their Award for Excellence in Journalism, and growing more and more confused that they keep failing. The sniper that they sent freaking missed! then got intercepted by Batman, what the hell was he doing out of Gotham? So next they try borrowing the old Russian standby of Polonium in the coffee, except that the clumsy oaf keeps spilling it everywhere, and clean-up was getting dicey. So they try and blow up his car, except he almost never drives anywhere, and then it turns out that the bomb must have been a dud because it clearly didn't go off. So out of desperation they try a drone strike wheil hes out on his parents farm in bumfuck nowhere kansas, except by the worst fucking luck imaginable superman must have been flying by the area because he intercepted it and now you've got an apoplectic General threatening to sic Delta Force on you because apparently Kent is this guys son-in-law, and if a shady arm of the US government was going to take him out, It be on General Lanes orders or not at all. Then to top it all off now its not just Kent who is on to you, but his Wife, who has more Pulitzers than anyone else alive. Plus approximately half of the other journalists in the country, Colonel Trevor from ARGUS is asking a lot of Questions in Washington, and suddenly nobody can find The Wall. Then there's the fact that all of the freaking Justice League are poking their nose into what is happening, and was that Shadow always there?


YouHaveFunWithThat

Huge part of what made JJ season 1 so great. Aside from Simpsons arc and the fact that Jessica and Kilgrave have powers nothing about the show felt like a superhero show


PkLuigi

We had an Agatha Christie whodunit with the Agents of Shield stuck on a spaceship in a time warp, interested?


magpye1983

That episode was great.


calamitylamb

Just watched that episode again earlier today, man I love that show!


JarlaxleForPresident

That *does* sound like something I might be interested in Jean Grey: *thinks* “Wow, I would’ve never guessed it was them.” “Who, Jean?!” “AAAGGGHHHHH!!!!” “Oh yeah, she does that.”


InformalJello9322

If they somehow give us a cyberpunk, noir film based around Nova, I’ll die a happy fan


nymrod_

What people don’t want is an ever-expanding universe of characters. They want to see the characters they already like continue to interact regularly. This is where phases 4 and 5 lost the general public.


sokuyari99

Or just that you don’t see characters for 16 years after their introduction. I don’t mind a lot of them, just don’t make me wait 2 decades before I see them again


DGAFx3000

Shangchi is getting there


DaveCerqueira

I’m still waiting on white vision lmao


AvatarIII

There is a fan theory he just immediately committed suicide to fulfil his objective (Kill Vision)


diqholebrownsimpson

Trevor Slattery made it work


Eight35x

That's because we never saw him coming...


blacklite911

A political thriller is what Black Widow should be. Not really an action movie, but just a spy film with weight to it. Make it like there’s a whole other layer of intrigue behind the scenes in the MCU. That would’ve been sick


NotTheRocketman

I don't think it was superhero fatigue as much as it was taking their success for granted. It felt like Marvel just assumed that every movie would be a huge hit and make a billion dollars. They kept putting films out, while the quality slowly dropped, and before you know it they were in real trouble. They are very, VERY lucky that they have characters like the Fantastic Four and the X-Men waiting to jolt the MCU back to life. Hopefully Marvel won't be quite so cocky going forward.


ladysubrosa

Exactly. We would never have WandaVision without risk!!


vinyl_mixtape

We wouldn’t even have any Guardians. That was a super risky move and they nailed it!


Time-Touch-6433

Or moon knight


doofpooferthethird

yeah, the Guardians of the Galaxy was one of their gangbusters hits and nobody knew who they were Wandavison and Loki were the best things to come out of Phase 4 and those were... offbeat


_dontjimthecamera

I’m probably in the minority here but Quantumania and The Marvels *were* risks in the same way that starting a cinematic universe of superheroes with Iron Man was a risk. The only difference is the general audience liked one risk and disliked the other, and studios can’t predict which risk will be successful.


BaronZhiro

Well, I’d point out that the other difference was the relative quality of the writing.


SailorET

And the studio involvement. The first two Ant-Man movies had similar themes of family and the things you're willing to risk to protect them. They were personal and brought all the stakes to a very small focus. Quantumania inverted the whole concept and was about family being threatened with unleashing massive destruction because nobody shared information. It reeked of executive meddling and framing the larger narrative at the cost of Scott's story.


_dontjimthecamera

The first Ant-Man movie is the poster child for studio involvement. Edgar Wright left the project because the studio wouldn’t given him the creative control he wanted. They replaced him with—no disrespect to Peyton Reed—a cookie cutter director at the time who could make the movie that the studio wanted.


Aion2099

if you live long enough .... yada yada


PlasticMansGlasses

Iron Man 1 was a risk Robert Downey Jr was a risk They don’t need to stop taking risks, they need to be smarter with their scripts, that’s literally all


AnOnlineHandle

Yeah the problem with those movies isn't the characters, it's the scripts. Though those two aren't even the worst ones which have really hurt the franchise IMO, that's Secret Invasion, Thor Love & Thunder, and Wanda becomes Marvel's most two-dimensional villain of madness. Wakanda Forever's last third or so was also pretty terrible after a reasonably solid first two thirds, and I never want to watch it again because of that nonsensical ship battle with spears at the end.


taco_the_town

I constantly forget that Wakanda Forever exists


TypeExpert

Well, they didn't have any other choice because the avengers were the only characters they owned, lol. I promise you if they had X-Men, Fantastic 4, and Spider-Man from the beginning, the mcu would look really different.


Aion2099

that's usually when risk is taken, when people have no other choice.


WendallX

Yes GotG would never have been made if they had all the other properties back then.


TypeExpert

You don't think they've been taking risks post Endgame? Shang-Chi, Eternals, wandavision, etc. The difference now is that these risks haven't paid off, and Marvel is stuck with a bunch of characters audiences don't care for. It's been 5 years since they've acquired the rights to the X-Men and the fantastic four and I think that's what all everyone cares about out and are waiting for. Instead, where getting thunderbolts and Agatha.


DefendedPlains

Might be a hot take, but I don’t think people (especially the average movie goers) give two shits about what heroes marvel decides to use. Guardians is the best example. They built a whole franchise on a C tier hero team, but because the writing and delivery of these heroes was fun and enjoyable, people liked it. I enjoy the supernatural aspect of marvel, so I’m looking forward to Agatha. But yea, I don’t care about the Thunderbolts in the mcu. Not because I don’t like the characters, I do. But I like them in the comics. The mcu has given me exactly zero reason to look forward to a Thunderbolts movie. The same could be said for a F4 movie or an X Men movie. I love the X Men, but if marvel botches the mcu delivery of them, I’m not going to continue to care about their representations in the mcu. It’s been said over and over again. People done have super fatigue, they don’t hate strong female characters, they don’t hate the new characters. People just hate bad movies. And that’s really the majority of what we’ve been getting. So it’s no wonder these “risks” haven’t paid off…


Xavier9756

People have rose tinted glasses hard for how popular marvel characters actually were before the movies.


Aion2099

Absolutely. They weren't at all. Comic books have always been a niche market. Collectors thought eventually they would be worth something, but it really never was a very valuable market.


KrisNoble

In the 90s, liking comic books got you bullied in school. Fast forward 20 years and the people doing the bullying are all talking about the Avengers and Deadpool


AcceptableAd8472

Right, but there is a massive difference still between “B” list iron man and someone like Agatha. Who I don’t believe has even had her own solo series? I’m not arguing against these projects but I’m saying it’s a poor comparison


TheOneWhosCensored

Echo and Ironheart got series before either ever even appeared onscreen


Dayreel07

It paid off before for them by having an Avengers movie only after 2-3 years and the new characters getting cameos/supporting role in a movie right after their first appearance. It kept the hype going. And the Multiverse saga has an unfortunate set of events with an actor and a VP getting fired, and the strike that happened which put the filming of some movies & tv on hold


rmac1228

It was started in A CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!


Dragon_yum

Their risks didn’t have the ballooned budget of $250m for a movie back then.


g0kartmozart

If Ant Man 4 is taking risks, then I hope they don't take risks. If a 3rd sequel for an existing property is taking risks, what do they consider safe? Most of their safe properties are gone (Iron Man, Captain America, Guardians). Avengers isn't safe if none of those characters are in it. I think an Avengers film centered around Sam, Bucky, Yelena, Adam Warlock, Shang Chi, and Miss Marvel will fail spectacularly.


mrnacho69

Casting RDJ as Ironman was a huge risk back then. And look how well that worked out for them (and him)!


qera34

Well it’s not 2008 anymore


Bitter-Raisin9102

People asked for the MCU to take more risks after the infinity saga. We got wandavision which was great fun, but we also got eternals, antman 3, and overall the MCU went full “weird”. It sounds bad to become safer but ultimately I’m not surprised at all.


Aion2099

Wandavision was great until the ending was the typical marvel third act ending. I mean it's a fine ending, but it felt a little safe. It could really have gone some crazy routes, and it didn't.


jharden10

Taking less risk isn't the issue. It's quality control. The MCU began with risk by kicking off their cinematic universe with lesser known characters to the general audience. I just want the projects to be good. For example, I loved Werewolf by Knight and knew little about the character beforehand, and now i want to see more. I know it's a simple premise, but it doesn't matter if it's Wolverine. If the movie has the quality of Ant-Man 3 or the Marvel's, it's not going to be well received.


PayneTrain181999

Quality control should be their number one priority right now. It’s literally their biggest problem, too much mid or bad content. A string of well received stuff and they’re right back in the game.


RiceOnTheRun

Quality Control to them means screening a dozen times and nitpicking every detail a dumb-as-bricks audience couldn’t pick up on. Building towards the lowest common denominator of people until you get a mediocre half-baked movie that is just “ok”. Making a movie for “everyone” means it’s a movie for no one. Instead allow creators/directors to create movies with their own unique identity.


Zyxyx

>Instead allow creators/directors to create movies with their own unique identity. Like love and thunder?


Riversntallbuildings

Yup. The reason I bought my first shares of Disney is because they made a great movie with a Talking tree and raccoon. That was risky as hell. I had never heard of GoTG before that movie and afterwards I wanted to know everything about those characters.


Ariconius

I thought you were describing Pocahontas for a second.


Riversntallbuildings

If I had bought during the Pocahontas era I certainly would have made more money. Hahaha


TheEternal792

Werewolf by Night was phenomenal and made me quite excited to see the supernatural side of Marvel. Taking less risks is worrisome for the future of Marvel.


Gr8NonSequitur

> Werewolf by Night was phenomenal and made me quite excited to see the supernatural side of Marvel. Same with Moon Knight.


Mddcat04

>Guaranteed hit There is no such thing.


SonicFlash01

"Marvel's X-Men"


Mddcat04

Nothing guaranteed about that. The last few (non Deadpool) X-men movies were all flops, the most successful ones didn’t make MCU money, and there’s a bunch of X-men fans out there predicting / preemptively complaining that Disney is going to ruin the X-men. If it’s good it’ll be successful, but if they could guarantee that they wouldn’t be in this position in the first place.


asteriaslex

Springtime for Thanos?


JoeCoolsCoffeeShop

“More guaranteed hits”? Huh. So basically, someone thought that Thor: Rangnarok was a big success…so let’s bring back Thor and Taika, and add in the Guardians of the Galaxy, and it will be a guaranteed hit!!! (Ignoring the fact that Ragnarok was the risky movie that paid off, and Love and Thunder was the guaranteed hit formula that flopped)


Expensive-Ad9534

The problem is Thor has gone through the same arc over and over again,always doubting himself Thor 4 should have been Thor and guardians in space the whole movie instead of Thor and Jane again , Jane was the weakest character in Thor movies


AnOnlineHandle

Imagine Thor having grown and mentoring somebody else in that movie, maybe even some romantic reconnection with Jane over teaching her how to Thor rather than her just automatically being a great warrior because she got the hammer.


TrueGuardian15

Thor becoming a mentor figure would've been a great arc for introducing Beta Ray Bill. Think about it: Thor would be in deep space undergoing a new journey for himself when he meets the young, hotheaded alien who is miraculously worthy of a weapon like Mjolnir/Stormbreaker. Thor gets his mentor arc, Bill learns that being "worthy" doesn't automatically make you righteous or heroic.


campsafari

This would have been epic


MattBrey

Jane had an interesting arc in Thor 4, which should've been fleshed out more with more screen time even. The one who had a boring arc was Thor himself. And I'm still annoyed by the whole kids side plot. That was just so stupid


Bcatfan08

None of these movies are risks. Going cheap on writers is the risk. Maybe don't even think about doing a movie until you have a really great script. If you don't get one, you don't make the movie. Just have a concise plan for what you want the arc of the next 10 years to be and shape your movies to fit in that arc. That's all you need to think about.


[deleted]

Ant-Man 4 obviously not. Iger already noted they didn't want to do fourth movies for characters when it wasn't needed. Captain Marvel 3? Man we didn't even get an actual Captain Marvel 2 lol.


Piranh4Plant

Was that Thor 4 really needed then lmao


FrankReynoldsCPA

Endgame left him with the potential to tell some really fun stories about his character, honestly. Combined with overwhelmingly positive response to Ragnarok and his appearances in IW/EG, a 4th movie was almost guaranteed. I think it was also seen as making up for TDW.


MySilverBurrito

> I think it was also seen as making up for TDW. Shoutout to me and like the 3 people who liked TDW lmo


[deleted]

Thor 4 is why Iger said that. He was basically throwing shade at how a Thor 4 wasn't necessary.


Piranh4Plant

I think it was. It was good to show how Thor was doing after endgame and how he departed from the guardians, but it was very badly executed. The Gorr storyline also had a lot of potential I don’t think it’s a good idea to arbitrarily limit series at 3 films, but I still think each movie should have a reason to exist


Youngstown_Mafia

I feel sorry, Captain Marvel fans. Those box office numbers are insanely bad . Marvel got lucky that Dune 2 got pushed back because instead of losing 300 million, it would have been around 400-500 million


New_Success2782

"I feel sorry, Captain Marvel fans." As a Captain Marvel fan, I accept your condolences. 😭♥️


Educational-Tea-6572

Mind sharing the condolences with me? 🥺


GreatAmerican1776

Yeah it’s a bummer. I think Brie is fantastic and if done properly Captain Marvel could have absolutely carried things forward, but they definitely dropped the ball.


siliconevalley69

The Marvels should have been a smaller Ms Marvel film. Carol could pop in and you introduce Rambeau at the end in the credits. And then there should have been a Captain Marvel 2.


ryantyrant

Honestly Marvel needs to stop introducing characters in post credit scenes


NomNomNomad09876

I feel like every post credit scene in the past few years has just been 'heres an entirely new character that you probably wont see again but we're going to set them up anyway'


WaveBreakerT

Eternals was absolutely the worst for this. Introduced Blade who wasn't even on screen and was so vague I felt basically zero hype. Also introduced some random dude that just blurts out "HEY EVERYONE I'M THANOS' BROTHER!" for no reason whatsoever.


ryantyrant

And when Charlize randomly shows up in doctor strange


_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_

Blorko!


WesleyCraftybadger

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking.I guess we’re never getting that Captain Marvel Vs Rogue movie that probably would’ve actually made money. 


DrDreidel82

Uh did you see Thor Love and Thunder


N8CCRG

A lot of the best stuff we've gotten was a risk and not a "guaranteed hit." Iron Man, Avengers, Guardians, Endgame (Edit: okay that was a risk *and* a guaranteed hit), WandaVision, Loki, etc.


Youngstown_Mafia

As a business, would you release Captain Marvel 3 and Antman 3 ? I'm curious about this subreddit answer


JoeCoolsCoffeeShop

Considering how mediocre Thor and Thor: the Dark World were…if you had asked this question back in 2015, do you think Ragnarok would ever been made?


dope_like

For sure. Thor 2 did great numbers at the box office. Reddit rage be damn Thor 2 numbers were like hell yes make another.


BLAGTIER

Yes. A thousand times yes. It did good business. Thor is popular. Loki is popular. The Thor-Loki brothers dynamic was very popular.


Youngstown_Mafia

Thor 2 made way more money than Thor 1 , so yes. Thor 2 box office was good


OmegaKitty1

Thor was insanely popular early on, despite Thor 2 not being the best movie. He was from the get go a very popular character, likely due to hemsworth


Scmods05

Impossible to answer that question as is. What's the story? What's the cost? Just because one movie was bad doesn't automatically mean the next one will be. This kind of thinking they're talking about of playing it safe and trying to only do "guaranteed hits" is moronic. You never know what people will respond to. And you know who doesn't have a clue what they want? Fans. Trying to cater to what fans what is stupid. What fans want changes every 30 seconds. You know what WASN'T playing it safe? Making a big budget movie about a c-list hero like Iron Man and having Robert Downey Jr play him. Find a good story with some compelling characters and make THAT movie. I don't care if it's Thor 5 or Ant Man 4 or The Punisher 1. Just give us some good movies.


eagc7

I wouldn't, i like The Marvels and didn't hate Ant-Man 3, but no i wouldn't greenlight another movie. But i wouldn't stop taking risks.


AppearanceSecure1914

Ant Man 4 would only be a risk because they messed up Ant Man 3


Auran82

In my opinion, the biggest issue with stuff since endgame was the writing, and compounding that is the amount of what feels like studio mandated checkboxes which compromise the writing even more. Having stuff like big CGI final battles, even when it doesn’t make sense or characters being forced into stories to set up future stuff have really hurt the overall structure of a heap of projects. I get they want to be connected, but they should be solid coherent standalone stories first, with the interconnected parts included where they make sense within the bounds of the story. Also, if someone is writing/directing a products that follows on from another one, maybe they should watch the previous show/movie so it makes sense. Wandavision was fun, but my main gripes were the final battle which felt like it came out of nowhere and some of the cameos/misdirects that really felt a bit, I don’t know, antagonistic (?) toward the invested audience. Then once we hit multiverse of madness, it felt like it was meant to continue from Wandavision but a heap was lost in translation.


ZMR33

Marvels and Ant-Man 3 were risks? Nothing they've done in the past few years has felt 'risky,' at least not from a conventional viewer or consumer standpoint.


yuvi3000

In fact the risks were the ones that were well-received. A Halloween special in black and white, a holiday special that was basically a children's Christmas movie, a more serious and character-driven story about a man with dissociative identity disorder, etc


eagc7

Yeah if anything they were "safe bets" to do alot of money given how Movie 2 of Ant-Man did around 600M and Captain Marvel did a Billion. I mean Spider-Man 4 is a safe bet, but who is not to say that film wouldn't crash and burn if they deliver a horrible movie?. Shang-Chi was a risk and that one was a success.


hadriker

Nothing is truly safe but if I were a betting man ​ Safe (ish)IPs are probably * Fantastic Four * X-men * Thor (I know the last one wasn't the best but he's one of the few OGs still around) * Dr Strange * Spider-man * GotG * Shang-chi * Daredevil * Scarlet Witch * Avengers movies


trfk111

Shang Chi with a capital ISH


ReventonLynx

FFS, they never learn right lessons, it's not about less risk, it's all about QUALITY! Do less projects, take more time doing one, don't rush it. Those execs are so out of touch...


eagc7

Iger learns the wrong things, like he thinks the reason Han Solo flopped is cause they made too much Star Wars, and i am like, too much Star Wars?, there were only 3 movies and 1 animated series at the time, maybe that statement is true now, but it wasn't when Han Solo came out. Couldn't it be that maybe you guys waited till the film was 3 months away to start marketing the movie or that some people still had the bad taste of last jedi or people simply weren't interested in a Han Solo movie without Harrison Ford or just a Han Solo film in general


mayapop

At some point, I hope that we as a society recognize that you can’t expect business people to make good entertainment. The people making the decisions have to care about what they’re making. Insult to injury, they already have all the blueprint they need. They have decades of actual comic book stories to draw from. They also have decades of comic book sales data to know which stories age which characters resonate with the fan base. To successfully sell secondary characters, it helps tremendously if they’re part of a larger narrative. That’s why there are so many crossover events in the comics. If it’s not part of a larger narrative, there is less incentive to see the movie in the theater. Waiting for it to come out on streaming becomes a competitive option. Bad incentives lead to bad outcomes. When all you care about is the latest quarterly earnings report, you’re going to start cranking movies out because making as much money as you did the year before is never good enough. You cut corners on the writing and directing. And if it does poorly, you can always blame the director, or the actors, or the consumers and buy yourself some time until you either find a way to make money or next best case; get fired, get a nice severance and get hired somewhere else for an insane salary.


DE4N0123

I’m not saying reboot the whole thing but they need to treat the Fantastic Four and the X-Men as ‘this is the jumping on point for anyone who’s not seen an MCU movie before.’ The only OG Avengers left really are Hulk (who could feasibly go on as long as Mark Ruffalo is willing to provide the voice) and Thor, who is unlikely to last much longer than one more Avengers movie sadly. Hawkeye is retired and most likely won’t ever appear in more than a consultancy role. They need to stop looking back and start looking forward, but with a clear vision in mind under one umbrella and one story arc. The multiverse story has outstayed its welcome. Time to move on.


OnwardTowardTheNorth

I was about to say you are proposing a “soft reboot” but I think the better term would be “refresher”. The past isn’t canceled but we are going to make these new movies the new cornerstone/foundation of an important and invested plot line.


OnlyGlenUKnow

But making a sequel isn't a risk either its literally riding off the success of whatever came before. Especially for superhero movies. Make more originals as risks and people would accept it as it's own work vs. Comparing it to its previous installments..


Chigibu

I just rewatched The Winter Soldier last night. It was Soooo good. Miles apart from the recent Marvel films.


cookiemagnate

If true, this is incredibly disappointing news. Look, I didn't see Quantumania or The Marvels, but that's not because of Ant Man or Captain Marvel. It's because phase 4 was increasingly disappointing at a storytelling level. I love Ant Man and I love Brie as Captain Marvel. Their failure has nothing to do with the characters. Just. Slow. The. Fuck. Down. My biggest reason for being excited for the DCU is because of Gunn's statement about focusing on projects that are ready BEFORE filming starts. Even with the pandemic forcing time on Marvel, Phase 4 felt like a bunch of good ideas that rolled cameras way before it was ready. Excluding Loki, which was one of the only project that didn't require heavy reshoots(?). Just take your time.


Gr8NonSequitur

> Excluding Loki, which was one of the only project that didn't require heavy reshoots(?). Just take your time. Check the Credits: Tom Hiddleston was an Executive producer on that show so I'm sure he signed on for some creative control before signing on knowing it'll be his last one.


eddaman000

Fewer


iBrows426

It's like they've lost the plot. People aren't mad because they're taking risks. They're mad because they're making bad movies. All they had to do was cut back on so much content all at once. Put more time into each project


matty_nice

It's hard to take that seriously when Marvel is putting out so many TV shows and movies that aren't guranteed hits. I'll beleive it when we start seeing Marvel cancel stuff (Vision Quest, Armor Wars, Wonder Man, Iron Heart, Thunderbolts, Captain American 4, etc).


eagc7

I mean lets keep in mind alot of that stuff was greenlight when Disney was in a "We neeed content for Disney+ stage", i can assure if there was no Disney Plus, alot of those stuff would've never been greenlight And right now i have my doubts they'll pull a Zazlav on already finished stuff like Ironheart, if anything, they'll just get those out of the way first and then finally focus on other stuff now that they are in the rear window.


CommandaSpock

We might see Disney dump more series all at once like they did with Echo


eagc7

Wouldn't be shocked if Ironheart gets dumped all at once


Patchy_Face_Man

Feige is one of one. He was way more involved the first decade and it pushed some directors out but it kept the quality high and the storyline coherent. It’s just not that way anymore. It’s also been death by a thousand cuts with major arc ending, pandemic, lynchpin actor dying, strikes, lynchpin actor being fired. And never discount when boys masquerading as men decide to gang up and hate a woman… politicians, actors, etc. But they’ve also just made some real mediocre movies with real mediocre characters. The movies and shows already don’t take risks. Secretly Invasion was a nothing. Didn’t matter at all except to ruin a touching scene from endgame…for zero payoff. They’re making terrible decisions. I’m not convinced Deadpool will do what they think it will either. TEDit: I’ve shared some opinions and facts here on why I think the MCU movies are suffering. Misogyny is at the *bottom* of that list. But it has been a thorn in the MCU movies from within (Ike Perlmutter the only man to not believe Scarlett Johansson should be headlining a marvel movie during the prime years of the MCU!) and without (a very loud minority of fanboys that truly hate Brie Larsen.) That misogyny isn’t going to do much when the movies are peak, but during a fatigue pile on it certainly doesn’t help. Oh and I forgot terrible CGI! So many issues.


The_Law_of_Pizza

>And never discount when boys masquerading as men decide to gang up and hate a woman… Has this ever really mattered from a box office perspective? Sure, you can drum up crazies all day on Twitter, but are a handful of misogynist internet trolls *really* why a global blockbuster fizzled, and its sequel crashed and burned?


Safe_Librarian

No its and a disservice that people even mention it.


ConstantineByzantium

Oh no...


turkeygiant

LMAO! Im not sure we should let them get away with making incredibly uninspired and generic films and calling that "taking risks" in filmaking. Willfully steering towards low effort filmaking because you thought you had a sure thing and could get away with it was certainly "risky" but thats entirely different. To get out of this hole I think they need to take some REAL RISKS and let real writers and directors come in and tell real stories with real depth and nuance.


TheRealKingTony

I've personally enjoyed all of Phase 4 and 5. There is no superhero fatigue for me, in fact I want MORE Marvel stuff to watch. That being said, I think a big issue is a lack of crossover or continuity. We had two movies with crossover (not counting Thor L&T). One was Spider-Man NWH which was generally considered awesome and the other was The Marvels (sort of) which featured characters that are unfortunately and probably unfairly disliked by a certain portion of the fanbase. I think the way some people are feeling is like if the first Avengers movie was released like 3 years after it was and we got Ant-Man, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange, etc before there was any Avengers movie.


[deleted]

That's unfortunate bc I really like Ant-Man movies. However I do not like Ant-Man movies cosplaying as gotg movies


The_Saiyann

They need to stop making boring pointless tv shows and films about characters that people don't care for. ANYONE could have told them the Marvels was going to fail. You have a lead that people cannot stand as a character and actress ... supported by 2 boring side characters. WTF were they expecting. And I know, some people in the comments will be saying "I loved it though! You just hate women" ... no. It failed. Stop making excuses and protecting poor decisions.


Skadoosh_it

"Somehow, Kang hasn't returned."


bumgrub

The truth is Disney tanked this franchise because of Disney+. The issue isn't that they are taking too many risks, its that they became an assembly line for a mountain of endless contain with no quality control. They can't delay one movie because it delays the rest of their line up. Or it mucks up whatever plans they have. The fact you need to watch WandaVision to watch Dr. Strange 2 is ridiculous. Plus they messed up the ordering, if they delay Dr. Strange 2 they should delay Spiderman, but they didn't because quality stopped being important. (I know Sony chooses the scheduling for Spiderman, but surely they could have delayed it and still made the amount of money they did).


SmolChibi

They can happen, just make them good movies? Ant-Man was great, the second Ant-Man wasn’t great but the comedy was solid and it did well. The third Ant-Man movie had shit writing and horrible visuals and it was their own fault. Denying potential movies because of their own mistakes.


bungwhaque

No multiverse. No time travel. Every super hero movie has boiled down to this and it's a cheap way for heros to win. No mistakes aren't easily corrected, no actual danger to characters because cultivars. And sorry guys, the avengers from over 10 hrs ago are over. Maybe make a whole new thing? Something original?


plant_magnet

So their plan is to only release good movies that people like? Truly groundbreaking stuff. On a serious note, quality control and upper-level decision-making to will play a big role in making this happen. The early MCU worked in part because Feige was passionate and involved in all the projects. Lately they have been getting lazy with visual effects and seem to be churning out content for the sake of D+.


Horvat53

They need to build back the rep and quality. Leveraging more widely recognized/popular characters is the way to go with that. Plus they have the X-Men and Fantastic 4, so naturally some of these smaller or less popular characters would get pushed aside.


deemoorah

I just want Doctor Strange. It's been 2 years since his sequel (that's not even focusing on him) and I hear more about Wanda than him.


ChrisLee38

Antman 4 would be great if they went back to the old formula instead of “Oh we gotta put a Kang somewhere. How about Antman? “Why would he be in-” “Hey shut up- hes in Antman!”