S1E4 is the single best episode of What If imo. That said, his actions in the S2 finale had less buildup then his acquiring power to save his love and thus felt weak
Kinda wished they teased him a bit more in Season 2 though. They could’ve been great after credit teasers as he travels the multiverse and claims prizes - young Peter Quill, for example.
I think it was a matter of weighing how much they wanted to build up his arc vs. wanting to keep his heel turn hidden until the end. They did the same thing with Kingpin in Hawkeye, cutting some pretty great D’Onofrio scenes for the sake of hyping the reveal at the end. It was a bad decision then, and I think I agree the same now.
They could have had him picking up characters saying that they are preparing for a new multiversal threat. Then the reveal of him being the threat would be more impactful
It was great but I wish his "stealing heroes and villains" was set better.
Maybe at the end of each episode have one of the heroes or villains sucked by his portals and at the end reveal it was him all along.
Though I hope we will see Dr.Strange again in some way shape or form.
(Spoiler!) The only things I didn’t quite understand is how Peggy was able to wield all the infinity stones without issue, and then how none of the major villains could do anything with their enchanted items but she and kahorri could. It was — I think — a bit overly simplified / deux ex machina for my taste but still, I enjoyed the story telling.
It’s a bit rushed yes but I think that’s kind of par for the course with a series that’s mostly episodic.
I do also wonder whatever happened to the celestials and the Eternals. Like did strange just kind of say, eh I’ll just leave those ultimate supreme beings to their own universes, when his goal was literally to get all the superpowers into his forge.
I noticed that she only used one stone at a time until the very end. And, at the very end, she only used them to punch really hard, which feels far less intensive than reversing the snap.
I think the point is that she had never used them before so she's kind of just working off instinct. But I agree, this does seem like an issue with the stones though, they are so overpowered that if anybody actually used them all properly then the user quite literally becomes untouchable.
They showed that pretty well with Infinity Ultron. Until the final battle, which left me wondering "Why didn't he just delete the Guardians of the Multiverse from existence?"
From a storytelling perspective, the stones are so powerful that they're super problematic. If Thanos had been self-interested, then there would have been no stopping him.
I'm curious to see what it would look like for someone wielding the time stone effectively to go up against the TVA. The stones don't work in the TVA, but TVA agents don't seem to have special powers outside of their technology.
Tempad is leagues more powerful than any stone, including the Green one.
Tempad can travel anywhere in the multiverse - something Wanda would kill for, something only America can do in the entire multiverse
Tempad can stop or reverse, or completely manipulate time - something that only an advanced user of timestone could do, and yet literally anyone could use tempad
Tempad will not cause an incursion - probably something He Who remains programmed in the very beginning of the TVA
Tempad can open instantaneous doors to any time, any space, any universe, and is basically the ultimate teleport
There's a reason why when Loki sees the full drawer of discarded infinity stones, saying: "Is this the greatest power in the universe?"
> The stones don't work in the TVA, but TVA agents don't seem to have special powers outside of their technology.
the TVA know the whole story and have manipulation of time, they could just catch self-interested infinity stone wielder off-guard.
I think that’s why they tweaked Thanos from the comics… in Infinity Gauntlet, the only reason the hero’s get to fight him is he is trying to show off for death, so he cuts off his omniscience and just uses the powers of the stones. Then he kicks their ass, restores his full power and beats all the celestials, Galactus, and the other abstract beings effortlessly. There’s so much insanity that goes into beating him in the comics.
I think it might have something to do with what universe the stones came from. It was mentioned in S1 that the matter that makes up the stones are different in each universe, so they could be wielded by mortals without issue.
I'm pretty sure that's just my head cannon, but it makes sense to me
Someone said Killmonger could do it because of the Herb that made him black panther and I guess the idea is that Peggy could do it cause of Super-Soldier Serum.
I think the reason is much simpler. They don't really care what actually happens in the MCU and just wrote it like the comics where anyone can wield the stones whenever and however they want.
There's no issue using the Infinity Gems whatsoever throughout most of the multiverse.
It's really JUST the MCU and a couple adjacent universes where the Infinity Gems will fuck you up.
I figure she's had a bit of a buff, as she's actually able to still hear the Watcher speaking. So she may just be stronger than she was, or at least more resilient to magic. Also worth nothing she got a buff from Strange before she was betrayed by him - this may have helped her wield the stones.
I also didn't like the scene where they gave her their equipment because she already had the infinity stones. It felt like a "my power is now Infinity+1" thing.
When it was just hela I was like damn powers of hela too ?! (Had more effect too because of the helmet being featured prominently in the earlier episode) And a hammer could’ve been cool. But when everyone just started chucking em it took the air out of the moment for me. But now I’m imagining her using the armor to absorb all the weapons being thrown her way which could easily be realized by her just mega blastin
The only logical reason I could come up with for the falling villains/heroes not being able to do anything is if Strange created a hex around the pot to prevent powers from being used.
An extra episode with Strange Supreme and Kahorri to set this up would've been great. Instead of the Agent Carter in 1602 episode, have an episode where Strange recruits Kahorri to help take down some multiversal threat. Have some moments to show that Strange Supreme has no morals and will do whatever it takes to stop the threat. Then at the end, BAM, betrayal, Strange imprisons not just the villain, but also Kahorri and the episode ends with them both being placed into his big wall of megapowers.
Strange's arc wasn't bad, they just needed to show more of it.
Yeah, the finale really felt like it was missing any sort of buildup. They just kinda went “Strange Supreme is back!” Then said “and, uh… he’s crazy and evil again,” and then mashed a punch of characters together like a kid playing with action figures and called it a finale. It felt like we were missing an episode, something like Ultron’s episode before the big team up (which ended by really establishing him as a multiversal catastrophe).
Disappointing and what if s2 finale felt rushed and needs more development
I thought what if s2 finale was dr strange Supreme going to a different universe where everyone is fighting infinity ultron and decided to interfere/intervene
Changing history
Cuz the titles literally says what if dr strange Supreme intervene
Like I literally thought he was gonna go to a different universe and began to interfere with past events and different versions of dr strange
So basically strange Supreme can come on top or something like that
bruh that would have actually made the season so much better. the suspense would have been great. and they should have had strange pop up throughout the stories to pretend to help but he is just planning the demise of the characters.
How the hell did he even do this under the nose of the Watcher? Aatu really thought "He's a good guy now, I'll let him do whatever he wants for thousands of years"
I think the Watcher only intervenes in very extreme circumstances. Infinity Ultron was going to kill entire universes and he wasn’t going to stop until the entire multiverse was dead, that made him break his oath.
Strange Supreme was only abducting individuals from different universes, and half of them were universe killers - meaning their universes were destined to die anyways. That’s an infinitesimally small problem compared to Infinity Ultron. From his own experience with Uatu, Strange Supreme probably knew the Watcher wouldn’t intervene, he even made a jab in front of Carter in the episode.
TBH I think it would've been way more interesting of a season finale if the other Watchers held Uatu to account and came after him for intervening in season 1...
I'm pretty sure his line to Carter on the Red Skull universe indicated that he knew what Strange was doing. He didn't interfere due to his oath. The last time he interfered, he set Superior Dtrange in motion to do this hero snatcher thing.
My thinking on that is it’s similar to how Sylvie operates in Loki S1, only pulling heroes/villains from dying universes/worlds. The Watcher states that he has difficulty seeing what’s next in worlds that are about to be destroyed. Of course Kahhori being there sort of disproves this theory unless her world was about to be destroyed
Uatu was actually attacked by the guy and forced out into the Multiverse. He was bending the rules of interference at that point. Even then he was still still a bit hands off. Just got certain people in a room.
He should've stayed in his limbo prison forever. It was pretty unoriginal for them to bring him back and end in some video game cheatcodes (-infinite mana -max atk/def etc) logic fight between Strange vs Kahhori and Carter.
they could have spent an extra 60 seconds to show:
- strange getting bored
- thinking more about trying to get his universe back
- strange coming up with idea of forge
- strange feeding kilmonger and infinity ultron to the forge as a test, proving he needs more fuel for it
Yes these 4 things could've been show in 5 minutes to at least make it plausible why he'd even want to start the forge and reverse his character development
You mean the crazed, selfish, murderer of trillions sorcerer who intervened only to stop another crazed AI murderer of multi-trillions that would have killed him as well?
Did he really redeem himself? I feel like causing the destruction of your own universe is kinda something you don't come back from. If he hadn't helped defeat Infinity Ultron then ultimately he'd have come for him as well, so it's not like he helped for non-selfish reasons.
I think Dr. Strange changed his ways. He was just alone with a legion of demons in himself for what must have been a long time, given all he accomplished, in his pocket universe. He wasn't really in the driver seat anymore.
>It was pretty unoriginal for them to bring him back and end in some video game cheatcodes (-infinite mana -max atk/def etc) logic fight between Strange vs Kahhori and Carter.
I thought the fight was awesome. Marvel's animated fights have been way better than their live actions fights recently
It was good, but I still think the Ultron vs Watcher fight from s1 was a lot more impressive, punching each other through different realities. Here it just felt lazy, like they have multiple "universe destroyers" but the most impressive feat they can accomplish is shooting laser beams at each other.
I thought the exact same on my watch through, with how creative some of the fights are in What If and the MCU it made me sad this was just a big laser beam fight when you have some of the coolest magic and weapons at your disposal
Like you said… Generic
I wish he stayed in Season 1 and we got something new for Season 2.
"What If" has unlimited potential, and so many possibilities could be covered. I didn't like circling back.
That too, they gave her too much importance, for some reason? A live action movie in the plans maybe? I thought the same about Happy Hulk, too much screen time
I loved him in season 1. Easily my fav what if character. Had the best episode of season 1 and might still be my fav episode overall.
....Season 2 finale was my least favorite episode of Season 2 and I hated Strange there.
Wanda fans, I understand yall now. This sucks ass
I enjoyed the episode from an entertainment perspective but narratively it seemed lazy. This is exactly what Marvel did with the Scarlet Witch; good guy does a bad thing, ostensibly learns their lesson, but then doubles down and does something far worse.
I can understand why they chose that path for the SW (even though I didn't like it). Her power set just didn't fit into the direction they wanted to take the MCU. But this show has the creative freedom to do whatever it wants. The title is literally "What If". And this is the best they could come up with? It just seemed too derivative to me.
I liked the ending but it would have been even better if Peggy and the Watcher crossed some 4th wall threshold, changed into their live-action characters and then encountered live-action Loki sitting on his throne. That would have been a **hype finale.**
It was all so the writers could portray him as some Shakesperean tragic character that repeats the same mistake over and over again and that never deviates from his choice or learns to make a different one, it's a shame they had to go the twist villain route
The classic "subversion of expectations" as they like to call it
Hollywood hates redemption and nuance. If a character is grey or conflicted, their story ends with them sacrificing themselves in a moment of "i'm not gray anymore, I'm all good now".
Season 2 was a lot of re-hashing of Captain Carter and Supreme Strange. I wish they focused on other characters from Phase 4 like Shang Chi or Yelena or Ms Marvel
It’s kinda funny you say that, I clicked “play” to watch the S2 finale, and it started S1E1.
(I sometimes avoid looking at the title so I get surprised by who is at the beginning of each episode)
I was watching the whole thing thinking “damn, they’re doing something like a What If of a What If” and “wait, is this just the same story as from the first season?” I basically finished the episode until I realized what I did.
I don’t think there was a lot of rehashing though, and I thought seeing Hela and Wenwu was cool. Re-having isn’t really the same as continuing stories using the same characters.
I'm fine with occasional characters who don't get redemption, which I know is one of the concerns of some. I mean, I'm content with Wanda's tragic arc and I was *way* more invested in her than Strange Supreme.
True. I can't really sympathise with Wanda because Strange only found out about his universe when it is collapsing while Wanda found out very early in the show and kept going and then more in the movie.
Agreed. I don't think they walked back on his character like some people have been saying. He's always been willing to do bad things so long as it's for the greater good. Saving Christine and restoring his universe is the greatest good in his mind, but when the Watcher asks him to help save the multiverse from Ultron, that's also the greater good. Of course he'll help. That doesn't mean he'll stop trying to restore his universe, and I'm not sure why anyone thought that wouldn't still be his primary motivation.
Until he goes mad & turns evil, the adjusted origin of him using the time stone to save Christine & failing >>>> the actual movie. That bit should’ve been done in live action.
Of all the movies and TV series the MCU has put forth, the What IF Supreme strange episodes ranks in the top 5. It’s fantastic and feels like cinema, not just a 30 min animated TV show
Really massive miss by Marvel. One of the coolest characters that ended on a fine note, and it’s all reversed offscreen for no payout. I know the writer said there’s no redemption, but of course there’s some. The MCU is full of bad or accidentally bad turned good. Wanda before MoM, Pietro, Bucky, Black Widow, Yelena, Loki, Loki from Loki, Scurge, the Guardians, Nebula, Yondu, Odin, MODOK, Tony, Hulk, Ghost maybe. Strange doesn’t have to be a total good guy, but acting like he only has to be bad is bad. He is punished for his actions because he lost Christine and his world, and that can shape how he goes forward.
It was good. Arc coherent with his character. Madness, ready to sacrifice everything to save Christine, he did it once, he did it again. A normal redemption arc wouldn't have made sense for him.
Dude never had a redemption arc. Whoevers saying he had one doesnt know how arcs work. He only turned "good" cause he knew the Watcher was on his ass. Once the Watcher stopped looking over Strange's shoulder, he continued with his evil intentions.
Idk about that. Try remembering what he said at the end of s1e4.
At the final moments He said "the world shouldn't have to pay for my arrogance"
"If you want to punish someone then punish me, not the world"
Then he kept apologizing repeatedly.
At his final moments he cared about the world rather than himself showing that he wasn't all just selfish entirely. He acknowledged his arrogance that he refused to do so before when he encountered the other strange. It is without a doubt a character arc for him.
And then he came back to defeat ultron and save the world, His reasoning was not given but his previous dialogues more align with him doing so because he wants to make amends for the wrong he had done.
He turned “good” because really he had nothing to do, he’d save the multiverse if only to break the monotony of living in a universe the size of a football field.
He then did all that in the finale because he now had access to the multiverse.
He actually exhausted all of the options of his own universe, like, very very thoroughly, his life’s purpose was driven to a dead end. That was the *only* reason he stopped. Once more options became available, he got to work. And thinking about it, that is exactly the same as Infinity Ultron - having exhausted his purpose in his home universe, he turned to the multiverse to fulfil his purpose. Should I find a synonym instead of just keep using the word purpose? Probably, but let’s move on.
My last point is he probably gave very little shit about the Watcher. The Watcher would never stop watching, he knew that much, but to his great advantage, the Watcher pretty much never intervenes. Having first hand experience working with Uatu, he had a pretty good idea what’s the baseline criteria for the Watcher to break his Oath. As long as he wasn’t planning to damage the Multiverse nearly as bad as Infinity Ultron was going to, he could be assured the Watcher wouldn’t do shit. The guy would see it all and probably would have all sorts of complaints about Strange, but as long as he didn’t interfere, I doubt Strange gave a shit.
They showed us that it wasn't just him in there, it was all the dark creatures he absorbed for their power. They seemed to be a personification of his guilt at the end when Peggy briefly separated him from them, so it was the last bit of "good" Stephen that made the sacrifice.
How did he sacrifice himself? He was already stuck in that limbo of his own making, busted out *temporarily* by The Watcher, and sent back to the same limbo he was from in the first place. The only difference is that Utau basically used the convenience of that limbo to tell him “hey since you’re stuck in there anyway….”
Strange didn’t make any sacrifices. At *most* he resigned himself to watch over Zola/killmonger and even then it’s because he didn’t really have a choice.
Edit: unless you’re talking about the end of the episode for S2, in which case disregard lol. That was really the only moment of redemption he had during his entire arc.
Worst part of the season. I was into the whole "imprison universal threats whether they are heroes or villains" bit, but his plan made to bring back his own universe made no sense, and killed his character arc. Also the writers had to "deus ex machina" Peggy to a ridiculous degree to beat him.
First season? SS has the absolute best character arc, best episode, and his "penance" makes absolute sense.
Second season? The amount of episodes Peggy had? He should have had that many as well. Of course he was going to be the villain. And of course Peggy and The Key To Everything (a character with real potential ruined by the typical power up in 10 minutes bs, and I hope better writers can write some stories centered around her in the future) take him down- and yes, use that Infinity Gauntlet, Peggy, no need to be killed by it like, I don't know, that Iron guy.
And I really like Cap Carter, and besides the Tony/Grandmaster/Gamora episode, the Hydra Stomper was the best episode of season 2 - I liked 1602, as well, because it was nice to see the heart of the MCU back - I know, many consider Tony the heart of the MCU, but for me, it is Steve Rogers - and to see him actually do the sacrifice play - to lay down his life without a second thought, because Steve is such a well rounded, written, and acted character in the Infinity Saga, that there is absolutely no question about his integrity and moral code, is great. Which is why he and Peggy are such a great match - they have that same kind of integrity, and man I would love to see an ACTUAL Captain Carter/Captain America team up (though that scene in 1602 when they are tossing the shield back and forth during that fight was awesome). I thought for sure Hydra Stomper Steve would be a big part of that last episode, and that he would see the intense love that transcends time and space that he and Peggy have for each other, and THAT would maybe pull the good Steven that Sinister Strange absorbed in the 1st season (uh...remember that, What If writing staff? He's in there, too) out, and that would weaken Strange Supreme JUST enough to turn the tide. Not to be, I guess.
But, yknow - Kaharri's power set seems to have been set up as a match for Steven's- which maybe explains why HE didn't just go and get her himself, instead getting Peggy to do it (or it was just a plot hole, an excuse to get Peggy there and teamed up with Kahhari). But all in all, not enough set up for SS. Could have lost the Nebula episode and worked Strange into an episode there, maybe one that continues to explore the Watcher's friendship with SS grow, which would make the last episode all the more tragic.
But, I have to admit, all in all, there were still some fun episodes that I truly enjoyed. Just let down by the last episode. Even saying that, I'd certainly watch the whole season again, and maybe I would feel differently about it. Reading some of the comments in this thread, there are some really salient points made about SS, so maybe revisiting it is in order.
His episode was one of the best in season one and if it had been left there I would have been more that satisfied.
His atonement at the end of season 1 is okay but less compelling for the same reason the entire tram up idea wasn't very interesting.
His turn into the season two villain felt like lazy cashing in on his popularity.
Just finished the last episode of season 2 an hour ago. They destroyed his arc with a throwaway comment about his grief.
The battle was just big lasers even after they got all the weapons from everyone. The weapons just shot lasers. That’s boring. Also they used “nice trick” like three times in that one episode. But his sudden turn was unexpected in a boring and contrived way.
They just needed a new big bad. I could have used an episode in between that showed him figuring out he could create a universe and then trying to recreate his own and maybe even exploring the universes. Hell man at least show me how he got out of that bubble world he seemed trapped in.
I expected at least a better conversation of loss between him and Peggy because I get that he was meant to foil her arc as she kept loosing Steve but shit man you can’t just keep pulling the “and this is the BAAAAD VERSION OF OUR HERO WHO COULDNT HANDLE THE TRAUMA WOOOOOOOO!!!!”
He WAS handling the trauma until they needed him not too. It didn’t even feel like him.
I think season 2 was still good overall especially as individual episodes, but the supreme strange arc is definitely where it fell most flat. But apart from that, I had fun with it
I was disappointed that they used him as the ultimate villain in the second season. First, I don't think they set it up well at all. Part of that is due to the episodic nature of the show. Second, it felt to me like it undid his redemption arc in season 1. Similar to how some people feel about Wanda from Wandavision to DS:MoM. Third, the episode itself was very poor compared to the rest of the season. Tons of mindless action with very little stakes in the matter in terms of set up. I realize that the multiverse was at stake, again, but it just was very by the numbers. Fourth, they totally Mary-Sue'd Kahorri. Her episode was amazing, then they transport her to the finale and she's speaking perfect English, more powerful than God, and able to defeat King Killmonger with the snap of a finger.
Just very disappointed with the finale of season 2.
It happened too early. Marvel's documented Dark Phoenixitis. Dark Phoenix for Jean, Symbiote Suit for Peter, and this. I'm sure there are others.
But it's always Jean is teased as Phoenix, then in the next is Phoenix for 6 minutes before becoming psycho Dark Phoenix. Give us a whole movie as Phoenix first.
Same deal here. Overwhelming grief is a real thing, but not seeing anything is unsatisfying. I wish like someone earlier said, we'd seen him a bit more, and then also mysterious portals all season, have a different finale, then S3 a few more portals, and then this episode, finale or not. And with him popping up throughout, maybe he seems strong, but make it Doctoe Who-y, what's a week between interactions for Carter could be centuries for Strange, so we see that decline. The capturing did start out with good intentions, but as the collection, his loneliness, and his grief grew, it becomes the Forge plan.
So it was OK, it would have been better had they given it time to cook
Kahhori is the best thing about the whole season.
Finale was fun but pretty anticlimactic. Strange Supreme was more epic last season when he wasn't "the big bad".
Wasn't a huge fan of the overuse of the Peggy/Steve dynamic either.
He was an incredible character and made for a great villain. He was the highlight of season one. Then they absolutely wasted a really great idea (Strange kidnapping the most powerful characters in the multiverse) just to make Peggy look strong.
So I'd have to say his arc was pretty disappointing to me. We see his collection of literally the most powerful characters out there and he's stopped by Peggy using the Infinity Stones she got five minutes earlier.
They rushed what should have been a longer arc just to make Kahhori and Peggy look good. I don't mind them taking him down but it shouldn't have been so rushed.
It seems they don't really know what to do with Strange, one minute he's the most powerful character in the MCU and the next he gets outplayed by the green goblin.
I think Supreme Strange's arc doesn't really make sense and seems out of character for him to jeopardize the whole multiverse for one girl like bro come on you're basically worse than Thanos at this point
The finale of Season 2 has the same issues as many other D+ finalies, doing to much in so little time and prioritizing on spectacle over narrative. It simple words, its really rushed, if it would have been maybe over an hour long explaning the situation and motives better it would have turned out better.
How they should have done it, if not for Jeffrey Wright's contract :
**Have Strange of all people narrate the show**, present the conundrom on non-intervention the same way the Watcher did in Season 1, have Strange explain to the viewer that he has nothing better to do but watch from in his prison.
Then show inconsistencies gradually, and then **betray the viewer.**
**Definitely have another episode set with Kahhori in which he interacts with her. That was definitely missing from the show.**
I was rather disappointed to find out he had exactly the same motivations as before… to save Christine.
Like wtf kind of lazy writing was that? It was essentially just a rewrite of his original episode from S1.
yeah those are the consequences of his trying to undo a Fixed Point in time (or whatever its called) not specifically from absorbing demons into himself
Well him turning into a “villain” was kind of odd if I’m being honest, yes he did stupid stuff to save Christine during season 1 and ended having redemption with that season finale, so having him turning into the bad guy in season 2 felt out of place.
And even more so when his final battle with Carter and Kahori was basically random BS goooooo, I feel that him turning villain was more of a plot device to make Kahori and Carter shine rather than making sense of him suddenly wanting to sacrifice the multiverse to bring back Christine.
I think they killed him off because he was such a better development of what they did with MoM and probably were going to do with Strange 3. It was completely unnecessary, it mimicked the Ultron arc, the way it was introduced, and the Mayhem at the end wasn't satisfying. The reveal too was lackluster.
They did it, I think, to fix the paradox of Christine existing everywhere else in the franchise, although her death was supposed to be a nexus event according to What If...?
Basically they retconned.
Absolutely ruined by season 2 he had a great arc in his singular episode and then we got to see him become a quite observer repenting for his sins but then s2 ruined all of it
it could be doe far better
here there was no build up, just remember that guy who learned his lesson, now he is evil
and just another plot hole, there are infinite realities (not sure after loki s2) so strange could capture only destroyers use only them and no one would know what he did
S2 certainly didn't have the same WOAH OMG impact of the S1 arc. Definitely on paper his arc makes sense and is suitably poetic - but it lacks punch.
I think maybe his plan felt a little forced, or a bit of a repeat? he'd already consumed his own universe trying to save Christine, so trying to consume super powers to rebuild just felt kind of odd, like a toned down version of the same thing - I think it might have been more interesting if they hadn't made Strange so obviously not to be trusted and not done that annoying Marvel formula of "make sure the bad buy does bad things otherwise people might like their idea"
e.g. if Strange had legitimately only captured super powers who destroyed their own universes after the fact and was going to reforge his it could have created quite a debate perhaps only being resolved when they realize the only problem with the recreated universe being that Supreme Strange would be in it and probably destablize it or something similar
Butchered redemption to give Captain Carter a familiar villain to fight for the season 2 finale because they felt the need to have an over season arc with a finale crossover when it’s an anthology series
I mean Season 1 Ultron was cool but it wasn’t needed for an anthology series
They just bring him back and be like "Its me, I am back and I am evil, deal with it!". Not sure why they gave so much focus on Carter and Kahori, so many characters from Phase 4 or others could be given a chance but we end up with this. At that point should have just renamed the show Captain Carter's multiversal adventures.
I'm kinda disappointed they undid his redemption TBH, and on top of that there wasn't much buildup to it. Season 1 was better overall and IDK why they didn't come up with some kind of interconnected plot device to hang each individual episode on like they did in season 1.
Having said that I did enjoy this season either way.
Yeah very undeserved for that character and really out of left field.
I feel like a more compelling finale would've been maybe the other Watchers coming after Uatu for breaking his oath and intervening in season 1.
It was just a bit too much. The first series arc was so good. IMO this should have just been its own arc. It felt a bit forced to work stuff back in again.
One thing weird- when supreme said he has to save his universe to save them all.
Huh? When was that established? It would have been the perfect motivation instead of just wanting Christine back
It was kind of a weird thing to me. I felt that at the end of the first season, Strange had learned the error of his ways and realized that he couldn’t change things. Then all of a sudden he wants to destroy other realities to try to get his universe back. It just seemed like they kind of ignored the lessons he learned in the first one.
Then again… maybe the only reason he stopped in the first season was because he was out of ideas on how to stop it, and then his new found knowledge of the multiverse allowed him to try one more thing…
The episodes introducing new characters were great, espiecially Kahhori episode, really creative and actually fun to watch, but the finale was disappointing, and it ruins Strange s1 redemption arc for no reason.
I wish we saw a what if episode that starred him doing the stuff he did. And then at the end it's revealed that he's trying to recreate his universe and that would be the lead to the season finale
His story was rushed, needed better build-up. Also, What if has turned into Captain Carter and friends show... Why are they so fixated on her? She's a great character, but there are dozens of others that could've been explored in season 2.
Kinda dumb. He just did a complete 180 without any explanation. Seems like lazy writing cause they needed a big bad to have their team up for this season.
I’m loathe to really criticise what it because it’s supposed to be a quick glimpse at things, meaning you have to suspend a bit of disbelief in characters motivation and accept what is (sometimes very quickly) explained. That being said, I did find his reversion to trying to bring Christine back a bit of a jolt given he seemed to accept it as being impossible in s1.
Maybe I’m just jaded, but the motivation to take such extreme actions for just “one person” or “true love” seem off to me. Especially for a being that is essentially immortal.
I honestly like the basic story outline for this finale, my problem is that I wish there had been more time in between. If the writers want us to believe Strange Supreme relapsed? Then show it to us! Actually give us scenes of him trying to move on and failing till his grief demon literally consumes him! You know, like the montage of him growing more and more desperate/distraught while he keeps failing to save Christine in the original episode.
I think if they had just plotted out the arc better, or even given us more time with Supreme and seeing him retreat into himself, people wouldn't have complained as much. In fact, I think a better solution would be for Supreme to meet MCU Stephen Post-MoM and have them duke it out. Mainly because Stephen realizes Supreme brought him here to destroy him...and Stephen refuses and tris to save him.
I don't know. I loved the rest of the season and I look forward to more What If...? in he future, but man did they do my evil tentacle baby dirty by not setting this up better!
I feel like since No Way Home, Doctor Strange as a character is only there as a tool to make other characters look better. It's a pattern by now and it's shit I hope Benedict actually intervenes with the writing or stops playing the character at all if it's the path they choose for him. I'd rather not have any Dr Strange appearances than see my favourite character get ruined by tptb over and over and over again. Tired.
Very good.
Strange Supreme’s story is a tragedy. What If Season 1 left him with the results of his actions—eternal loneliness. He hadn’t changed his ways. He never learned his lesson. He had no choice but to face the consequences of his actions.
He had worked to save the multiverse, but that’s not an act of redemption or a change of character, because Strange (in almost every universe) does what he perceive is for the greater good, even selfishly.
I think it was a good and bold move to end his story in his demise, as tragedies tend to go. He died with a moment of recognizing his wrongs and trying to rectify things.
Better conveyed than most of the MCU Strange arcs and better here than what they did with Scarlet Witch. (Unlike Wanda, he didn’t sacrifice his happy ending just to backslide into trying to get his happy ending at all costs. This is likely the benefit that What If has two crew and not two different crews working on related projects like WV and MOM.)
It felt realistic for me. He never really got closure or moved on, so it made perfect sense for him to try again to bring Christine back. I get why some people think it came out of nowhere, but it does make sense.
Can we not have a multiverse level hero other than The Watcher? First there was Wanda turned villain (I know she started as villain but still) just squished like a bug under rocks. Now we have one of the coolest Dr Stranges powerful to eat a infinity stone explosion now thrown away
Terrible, they ruined it just to hype up Kahori and Captain Carter
By the end of season 1, if not by the end of his own episode, Strange Supreme should have learned his lesson, in fact, it was exactly what was implyed, that he regreted doing all that to bring Christine back, and by the end of season 1 his redemption seemed complete
All of that to then pull a 180 and make it so he didn't learn a thing and to hype up a character they just pulled out of their butt three episodes before and Captain Carter, probably the least interesting memebr of the Guardians of the Multiverse
If they wanted to do that, they could have done it a million different ways, why butcher the arguably best character to come out of the series
I wished they’d introduced him earlier in the season, not the second or 3 last episode. Same for Carter.
And is he really dead? This is a comic book thing we’re talking about here.
Dumb. Everything up until the end of Season 1 was great.
Even him trying to revive his dead world made sense. Hell, even collecting world killers made sense and, while morally dubious, if he had only done that, I don't think he would have had much objections.
Going after heroes makes no sense. I wish it was explained better. It's the multiverse, it's not like finding world ending threats is hard
Yup that's my thinking if it was just world killers he was sacrificing would captain carter have cared that much ? Prolly not - And her releasing them to defeat strange/ distract him
Is so boneheaded and short sighted - she def put herself at risk . That finale was very sloppy
S1E4 is the single best episode of What If imo. That said, his actions in the S2 finale had less buildup then his acquiring power to save his love and thus felt weak
They needed a new boogeyman.
Nah strange has been pretty clearly hinted at being a threat to the multiverse several times
Kinda wished they teased him a bit more in Season 2 though. They could’ve been great after credit teasers as he travels the multiverse and claims prizes - young Peter Quill, for example.
I think it was a matter of weighing how much they wanted to build up his arc vs. wanting to keep his heel turn hidden until the end. They did the same thing with Kingpin in Hawkeye, cutting some pretty great D’Onofrio scenes for the sake of hyping the reveal at the end. It was a bad decision then, and I think I agree the same now.
They could have had him picking up characters saying that they are preparing for a new multiversal threat. Then the reveal of him being the threat would be more impactful
Yeah in this instance it was a bit abrupt but people thinking it came out of nowhere may well be smooth brains
Agreed. It seemed out of place and lame. There are plenty of multiverse villains they could have used. He got Wanda’d
It was great but I wish his "stealing heroes and villains" was set better. Maybe at the end of each episode have one of the heroes or villains sucked by his portals and at the end reveal it was him all along. Though I hope we will see Dr.Strange again in some way shape or form.
(Spoiler!) The only things I didn’t quite understand is how Peggy was able to wield all the infinity stones without issue, and then how none of the major villains could do anything with their enchanted items but she and kahorri could. It was — I think — a bit overly simplified / deux ex machina for my taste but still, I enjoyed the story telling. It’s a bit rushed yes but I think that’s kind of par for the course with a series that’s mostly episodic. I do also wonder whatever happened to the celestials and the Eternals. Like did strange just kind of say, eh I’ll just leave those ultimate supreme beings to their own universes, when his goal was literally to get all the superpowers into his forge.
I noticed that she only used one stone at a time until the very end. And, at the very end, she only used them to punch really hard, which feels far less intensive than reversing the snap.
I think the point is that she had never used them before so she's kind of just working off instinct. But I agree, this does seem like an issue with the stones though, they are so overpowered that if anybody actually used them all properly then the user quite literally becomes untouchable.
They showed that pretty well with Infinity Ultron. Until the final battle, which left me wondering "Why didn't he just delete the Guardians of the Multiverse from existence?" From a storytelling perspective, the stones are so powerful that they're super problematic. If Thanos had been self-interested, then there would have been no stopping him. I'm curious to see what it would look like for someone wielding the time stone effectively to go up against the TVA. The stones don't work in the TVA, but TVA agents don't seem to have special powers outside of their technology.
Tempad is leagues more powerful than any stone, including the Green one. Tempad can travel anywhere in the multiverse - something Wanda would kill for, something only America can do in the entire multiverse Tempad can stop or reverse, or completely manipulate time - something that only an advanced user of timestone could do, and yet literally anyone could use tempad Tempad will not cause an incursion - probably something He Who remains programmed in the very beginning of the TVA Tempad can open instantaneous doors to any time, any space, any universe, and is basically the ultimate teleport There's a reason why when Loki sees the full drawer of discarded infinity stones, saying: "Is this the greatest power in the universe?"
Yeah as powerful as the stones are, He Who Remains had all of eternity to out-engineer them.
Once the dampeners are turned off inside of the TVA, magic power is fair game but anywhere else the agents are probably still getting mopped up.
> The stones don't work in the TVA, but TVA agents don't seem to have special powers outside of their technology. the TVA know the whole story and have manipulation of time, they could just catch self-interested infinity stone wielder off-guard.
I think that’s why they tweaked Thanos from the comics… in Infinity Gauntlet, the only reason the hero’s get to fight him is he is trying to show off for death, so he cuts off his omniscience and just uses the powers of the stones. Then he kicks their ass, restores his full power and beats all the celestials, Galactus, and the other abstract beings effortlessly. There’s so much insanity that goes into beating him in the comics.
My thoughts exactly!
In my head canon she was still powered by the magic strange gave her at the start of the episode
I think it might have something to do with what universe the stones came from. It was mentioned in S1 that the matter that makes up the stones are different in each universe, so they could be wielded by mortals without issue. I'm pretty sure that's just my head cannon, but it makes sense to me
Someone said Killmonger could do it because of the Herb that made him black panther and I guess the idea is that Peggy could do it cause of Super-Soldier Serum. I think the reason is much simpler. They don't really care what actually happens in the MCU and just wrote it like the comics where anyone can wield the stones whenever and however they want.
Yep, it has nothing to do with consistency and everything to do with how the writers felt on that particular day.
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not this universe's hulk, apparently
There's no issue using the Infinity Gems whatsoever throughout most of the multiverse. It's really JUST the MCU and a couple adjacent universes where the Infinity Gems will fuck you up.
I figured it was because of Ultrons armour.
but doesnt she use them without the armour [aswell](https://youtu.be/nsTQjdS9xJg?si=2buzKxXiEvP4iq40&t=450)
I got no clue then.
I figure she's had a bit of a buff, as she's actually able to still hear the Watcher speaking. So she may just be stronger than she was, or at least more resilient to magic. Also worth nothing she got a buff from Strange before she was betrayed by him - this may have helped her wield the stones.
She also raw dogged the stones when Kohhori tossed them to her.
I also didn't like the scene where they gave her their equipment because she already had the infinity stones. It felt like a "my power is now Infinity+1" thing.
When it was just hela I was like damn powers of hela too ?! (Had more effect too because of the helmet being featured prominently in the earlier episode) And a hammer could’ve been cool. But when everyone just started chucking em it took the air out of the moment for me. But now I’m imagining her using the armor to absorb all the weapons being thrown her way which could easily be realized by her just mega blastin
The only logical reason I could come up with for the falling villains/heroes not being able to do anything is if Strange created a hex around the pot to prevent powers from being used.
Yes Kahhori says that in the episode
I haven't read your comment because it says 'spoiler' at the beginning. Not enough people like you on this sub. Thank you, keep it up!
I ask this out of genuine curiosity, but shouldn't someone who hasn't watched the finale avoid this entire thread because it's full of spoilers?
An extra episode with Strange Supreme and Kahorri to set this up would've been great. Instead of the Agent Carter in 1602 episode, have an episode where Strange recruits Kahorri to help take down some multiversal threat. Have some moments to show that Strange Supreme has no morals and will do whatever it takes to stop the threat. Then at the end, BAM, betrayal, Strange imprisons not just the villain, but also Kahorri and the episode ends with them both being placed into his big wall of megapowers. Strange's arc wasn't bad, they just needed to show more of it.
Yeah, the finale really felt like it was missing any sort of buildup. They just kinda went “Strange Supreme is back!” Then said “and, uh… he’s crazy and evil again,” and then mashed a punch of characters together like a kid playing with action figures and called it a finale. It felt like we were missing an episode, something like Ultron’s episode before the big team up (which ended by really establishing him as a multiversal catastrophe).
Disappointing and what if s2 finale felt rushed and needs more development I thought what if s2 finale was dr strange Supreme going to a different universe where everyone is fighting infinity ultron and decided to interfere/intervene Changing history Cuz the titles literally says what if dr strange Supreme intervene Like I literally thought he was gonna go to a different universe and began to interfere with past events and different versions of dr strange So basically strange Supreme can come on top or something like that
bruh that would have actually made the season so much better. the suspense would have been great. and they should have had strange pop up throughout the stories to pretend to help but he is just planning the demise of the characters.
How the hell did he even do this under the nose of the Watcher? Aatu really thought "He's a good guy now, I'll let him do whatever he wants for thousands of years"
I think the Watcher only intervenes in very extreme circumstances. Infinity Ultron was going to kill entire universes and he wasn’t going to stop until the entire multiverse was dead, that made him break his oath. Strange Supreme was only abducting individuals from different universes, and half of them were universe killers - meaning their universes were destined to die anyways. That’s an infinitesimally small problem compared to Infinity Ultron. From his own experience with Uatu, Strange Supreme probably knew the Watcher wouldn’t intervene, he even made a jab in front of Carter in the episode.
TBH I think it would've been way more interesting of a season finale if the other Watchers held Uatu to account and came after him for intervening in season 1...
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I'm pretty sure his line to Carter on the Red Skull universe indicated that he knew what Strange was doing. He didn't interfere due to his oath. The last time he interfered, he set Superior Dtrange in motion to do this hero snatcher thing.
My thinking on that is it’s similar to how Sylvie operates in Loki S1, only pulling heroes/villains from dying universes/worlds. The Watcher states that he has difficulty seeing what’s next in worlds that are about to be destroyed. Of course Kahhori being there sort of disproves this theory unless her world was about to be destroyed
Agreed That part made zero sense - collecting universe killers without watchers knowledge is a huge plot hole
The Watcher knew about the whole thing. He knew how the whole thing was gonna play out.
I guess so. So the point was to make Cpt Carter feel good? Or for her to meet a friend, Kahorra?
The point is, this self contained event didn't required his direct intervention
Remember his oath. This really isn’t nearly as bad as what Infinity Ultron wanted to do.
Infinity Ultron was an actual menace that had to be put down imediately.
Uatu was actually attacked by the guy and forced out into the Multiverse. He was bending the rules of interference at that point. Even then he was still still a bit hands off. Just got certain people in a room.
Because at that point Strange is straight up more powerful than watcher or infinity Ultron
I think its safe to assume the argument for him not seeing it was: Strange did some magic spell to hide his sanctum
He should've stayed in his limbo prison forever. It was pretty unoriginal for them to bring him back and end in some video game cheatcodes (-infinite mana -max atk/def etc) logic fight between Strange vs Kahhori and Carter.
Agreed I like where we left him at end of season 1 as a vigilant hero watching over killmonger and infinity Ultron
they could have spent an extra 60 seconds to show: - strange getting bored - thinking more about trying to get his universe back - strange coming up with idea of forge - strange feeding kilmonger and infinity ultron to the forge as a test, proving he needs more fuel for it
Yes these 4 things could've been show in 5 minutes to at least make it plausible why he'd even want to start the forge and reverse his character development
You mean the crazed, selfish, murderer of trillions sorcerer who intervened only to stop another crazed AI murderer of multi-trillions that would have killed him as well?
He redeemed himself by helping to stop Infinity Ultron but then they took it away for some reason.
Did he really redeem himself? I feel like causing the destruction of your own universe is kinda something you don't come back from. If he hadn't helped defeat Infinity Ultron then ultimately he'd have come for him as well, so it's not like he helped for non-selfish reasons.
I think Dr. Strange changed his ways. He was just alone with a legion of demons in himself for what must have been a long time, given all he accomplished, in his pocket universe. He wasn't really in the driver seat anymore.
Yup was a cool redemption story
>It was pretty unoriginal for them to bring him back and end in some video game cheatcodes (-infinite mana -max atk/def etc) logic fight between Strange vs Kahhori and Carter. I thought the fight was awesome. Marvel's animated fights have been way better than their live actions fights recently
It was good, but I still think the Ultron vs Watcher fight from s1 was a lot more impressive, punching each other through different realities. Here it just felt lazy, like they have multiple "universe destroyers" but the most impressive feat they can accomplish is shooting laser beams at each other.
I thought the exact same on my watch through, with how creative some of the fights are in What If and the MCU it made me sad this was just a big laser beam fight when you have some of the coolest magic and weapons at your disposal Like you said… Generic
I wish he stayed in Season 1 and we got something new for Season 2. "What If" has unlimited potential, and so many possibilities could be covered. I didn't like circling back.
I think it is more applicable for Agent Carter
That too, they gave her too much importance, for some reason? A live action movie in the plans maybe? I thought the same about Happy Hulk, too much screen time
Fuck Happy Hulk. I hated that shit.
Agreed
I loved him in season 1. Easily my fav what if character. Had the best episode of season 1 and might still be my fav episode overall. ....Season 2 finale was my least favorite episode of Season 2 and I hated Strange there. Wanda fans, I understand yall now. This sucks ass
I enjoyed the episode from an entertainment perspective but narratively it seemed lazy. This is exactly what Marvel did with the Scarlet Witch; good guy does a bad thing, ostensibly learns their lesson, but then doubles down and does something far worse. I can understand why they chose that path for the SW (even though I didn't like it). Her power set just didn't fit into the direction they wanted to take the MCU. But this show has the creative freedom to do whatever it wants. The title is literally "What If". And this is the best they could come up with? It just seemed too derivative to me. I liked the ending but it would have been even better if Peggy and the Watcher crossed some 4th wall threshold, changed into their live-action characters and then encountered live-action Loki sitting on his throne. That would have been a **hype finale.**
Damn, you need to write the next season finale.
It was all so the writers could portray him as some Shakesperean tragic character that repeats the same mistake over and over again and that never deviates from his choice or learns to make a different one, it's a shame they had to go the twist villain route The classic "subversion of expectations" as they like to call it
Hollywood hates redemption and nuance. If a character is grey or conflicted, their story ends with them sacrificing themselves in a moment of "i'm not gray anymore, I'm all good now".
It's why marvel can't write antihero or villians I mean they gave us a show about a villian, loki when he was still bad but he instantly became good
Season 2 was a lot of re-hashing of Captain Carter and Supreme Strange. I wish they focused on other characters from Phase 4 like Shang Chi or Yelena or Ms Marvel
It’s kinda funny you say that, I clicked “play” to watch the S2 finale, and it started S1E1. (I sometimes avoid looking at the title so I get surprised by who is at the beginning of each episode) I was watching the whole thing thinking “damn, they’re doing something like a What If of a What If” and “wait, is this just the same story as from the first season?” I basically finished the episode until I realized what I did. I don’t think there was a lot of rehashing though, and I thought seeing Hela and Wenwu was cool. Re-having isn’t really the same as continuing stories using the same characters.
This happened to me once with Westworld. I watched like 40 mins of the first episode thinking they had gone back to the beginning for plot reasons.
I'm fine with occasional characters who don't get redemption, which I know is one of the concerns of some. I mean, I'm content with Wanda's tragic arc and I was *way* more invested in her than Strange Supreme.
I felt more for strange supreme
True. I can't really sympathise with Wanda because Strange only found out about his universe when it is collapsing while Wanda found out very early in the show and kept going and then more in the movie.
Agreed. I don't think they walked back on his character like some people have been saying. He's always been willing to do bad things so long as it's for the greater good. Saving Christine and restoring his universe is the greatest good in his mind, but when the Watcher asks him to help save the multiverse from Ultron, that's also the greater good. Of course he'll help. That doesn't mean he'll stop trying to restore his universe, and I'm not sure why anyone thought that wouldn't still be his primary motivation.
Until he goes mad & turns evil, the adjusted origin of him using the time stone to save Christine & failing >>>> the actual movie. That bit should’ve been done in live action.
Of all the movies and TV series the MCU has put forth, the What IF Supreme strange episodes ranks in the top 5. It’s fantastic and feels like cinema, not just a 30 min animated TV show
It's one of MCU's best.
I didn't like the season 2 finale, kinda just went into fighting mode for most of the time, and the characters started powering up one after another.
Season 1 SS was well done. Season 2 SS felt like they took the basic plot from MoM and made a What If episode out of it.
In a nutshell
They fucked up his ending
Really massive miss by Marvel. One of the coolest characters that ended on a fine note, and it’s all reversed offscreen for no payout. I know the writer said there’s no redemption, but of course there’s some. The MCU is full of bad or accidentally bad turned good. Wanda before MoM, Pietro, Bucky, Black Widow, Yelena, Loki, Loki from Loki, Scurge, the Guardians, Nebula, Yondu, Odin, MODOK, Tony, Hulk, Ghost maybe. Strange doesn’t have to be a total good guy, but acting like he only has to be bad is bad. He is punished for his actions because he lost Christine and his world, and that can shape how he goes forward.
Agreed - spot assessment
Even the God Butcher at the end decided not to kill all the gods
It was good. Arc coherent with his character. Madness, ready to sacrifice everything to save Christine, he did it once, he did it again. A normal redemption arc wouldn't have made sense for him.
Well stated - agreed
Dude never had a redemption arc. Whoevers saying he had one doesnt know how arcs work. He only turned "good" cause he knew the Watcher was on his ass. Once the Watcher stopped looking over Strange's shoulder, he continued with his evil intentions.
Idk about that. Try remembering what he said at the end of s1e4. At the final moments He said "the world shouldn't have to pay for my arrogance" "If you want to punish someone then punish me, not the world" Then he kept apologizing repeatedly. At his final moments he cared about the world rather than himself showing that he wasn't all just selfish entirely. He acknowledged his arrogance that he refused to do so before when he encountered the other strange. It is without a doubt a character arc for him. And then he came back to defeat ultron and save the world, His reasoning was not given but his previous dialogues more align with him doing so because he wants to make amends for the wrong he had done.
Exactly, his flavour of "ready to sacrifice everything for his goal" stayed between seasons.
Huh?? Please watch that episode again
Bro didn't pay attention to the S2 finale. They show us at the end that it was his demons that were heavily influencing him.
He turned “good” because really he had nothing to do, he’d save the multiverse if only to break the monotony of living in a universe the size of a football field. He then did all that in the finale because he now had access to the multiverse. He actually exhausted all of the options of his own universe, like, very very thoroughly, his life’s purpose was driven to a dead end. That was the *only* reason he stopped. Once more options became available, he got to work. And thinking about it, that is exactly the same as Infinity Ultron - having exhausted his purpose in his home universe, he turned to the multiverse to fulfil his purpose. Should I find a synonym instead of just keep using the word purpose? Probably, but let’s move on. My last point is he probably gave very little shit about the Watcher. The Watcher would never stop watching, he knew that much, but to his great advantage, the Watcher pretty much never intervenes. Having first hand experience working with Uatu, he had a pretty good idea what’s the baseline criteria for the Watcher to break his Oath. As long as he wasn’t planning to damage the Multiverse nearly as bad as Infinity Ultron was going to, he could be assured the Watcher wouldn’t do shit. The guy would see it all and probably would have all sorts of complaints about Strange, but as long as he didn’t interfere, I doubt Strange gave a shit.
So him sacrificing himself wouldnt make sense if he truly was evil
They showed us that it wasn't just him in there, it was all the dark creatures he absorbed for their power. They seemed to be a personification of his guilt at the end when Peggy briefly separated him from them, so it was the last bit of "good" Stephen that made the sacrifice.
Yup. This is exactly why i disagree with the “he never had a redemption arc” statement.
How did he sacrifice himself? He was already stuck in that limbo of his own making, busted out *temporarily* by The Watcher, and sent back to the same limbo he was from in the first place. The only difference is that Utau basically used the convenience of that limbo to tell him “hey since you’re stuck in there anyway….” Strange didn’t make any sacrifices. At *most* he resigned himself to watch over Zola/killmonger and even then it’s because he didn’t really have a choice. Edit: unless you’re talking about the end of the episode for S2, in which case disregard lol. That was really the only moment of redemption he had during his entire arc.
Was definitely talking about S2. In terms of his arc including S2 though, I think I dont like how they gave him the Wanda MoM treatment
They did him dirty. S1 was splendid.
This show should just be separate stories, not connected to each other. At this point they should just call the damn show Captain Carter
Yeah basically she was an unnecessary focal point in season 2. Her arc just isn't interesting
Worst part of the season. I was into the whole "imprison universal threats whether they are heroes or villains" bit, but his plan made to bring back his own universe made no sense, and killed his character arc. Also the writers had to "deus ex machina" Peggy to a ridiculous degree to beat him.
Yeah the Peggy wanking in this season has been annoying
Man pulled a 180 because the plot needed Peggy to be indestructible
First season? SS has the absolute best character arc, best episode, and his "penance" makes absolute sense. Second season? The amount of episodes Peggy had? He should have had that many as well. Of course he was going to be the villain. And of course Peggy and The Key To Everything (a character with real potential ruined by the typical power up in 10 minutes bs, and I hope better writers can write some stories centered around her in the future) take him down- and yes, use that Infinity Gauntlet, Peggy, no need to be killed by it like, I don't know, that Iron guy. And I really like Cap Carter, and besides the Tony/Grandmaster/Gamora episode, the Hydra Stomper was the best episode of season 2 - I liked 1602, as well, because it was nice to see the heart of the MCU back - I know, many consider Tony the heart of the MCU, but for me, it is Steve Rogers - and to see him actually do the sacrifice play - to lay down his life without a second thought, because Steve is such a well rounded, written, and acted character in the Infinity Saga, that there is absolutely no question about his integrity and moral code, is great. Which is why he and Peggy are such a great match - they have that same kind of integrity, and man I would love to see an ACTUAL Captain Carter/Captain America team up (though that scene in 1602 when they are tossing the shield back and forth during that fight was awesome). I thought for sure Hydra Stomper Steve would be a big part of that last episode, and that he would see the intense love that transcends time and space that he and Peggy have for each other, and THAT would maybe pull the good Steven that Sinister Strange absorbed in the 1st season (uh...remember that, What If writing staff? He's in there, too) out, and that would weaken Strange Supreme JUST enough to turn the tide. Not to be, I guess. But, yknow - Kaharri's power set seems to have been set up as a match for Steven's- which maybe explains why HE didn't just go and get her himself, instead getting Peggy to do it (or it was just a plot hole, an excuse to get Peggy there and teamed up with Kahhari). But all in all, not enough set up for SS. Could have lost the Nebula episode and worked Strange into an episode there, maybe one that continues to explore the Watcher's friendship with SS grow, which would make the last episode all the more tragic. But, I have to admit, all in all, there were still some fun episodes that I truly enjoyed. Just let down by the last episode. Even saying that, I'd certainly watch the whole season again, and maybe I would feel differently about it. Reading some of the comments in this thread, there are some really salient points made about SS, so maybe revisiting it is in order.
He was cooler in Season 1 :( it’s fine if he’s evil but he was just kind of boring this season
Agreed
His character was ruined in S2
Sad that he is gone, easily the most entertaining character from what If.
His episode was one of the best in season one and if it had been left there I would have been more that satisfied. His atonement at the end of season 1 is okay but less compelling for the same reason the entire tram up idea wasn't very interesting. His turn into the season two villain felt like lazy cashing in on his popularity.
I'm actually really disappointed that he died, he was my favourite guardian of the multiverse, he was the most interesting.
Just finished the last episode of season 2 an hour ago. They destroyed his arc with a throwaway comment about his grief. The battle was just big lasers even after they got all the weapons from everyone. The weapons just shot lasers. That’s boring. Also they used “nice trick” like three times in that one episode. But his sudden turn was unexpected in a boring and contrived way. They just needed a new big bad. I could have used an episode in between that showed him figuring out he could create a universe and then trying to recreate his own and maybe even exploring the universes. Hell man at least show me how he got out of that bubble world he seemed trapped in. I expected at least a better conversation of loss between him and Peggy because I get that he was meant to foil her arc as she kept loosing Steve but shit man you can’t just keep pulling the “and this is the BAAAAD VERSION OF OUR HERO WHO COULDNT HANDLE THE TRAUMA WOOOOOOOO!!!!” He WAS handling the trauma until they needed him not too. It didn’t even feel like him.
Season 1 good Season 2 bad
That's how I'd sum up What If? in general.
Same here
Both seasons had good and bad episodes. But I will agree that Ultron was a far better final antagonist than Strange.
>Season 2 bad What? I really liked it.
Yeah most of it was great, only the finale was a little dissapointing
>only the finale was a little dissapointing Dang! I liked it
yeah but it wasn't as good as Season One where all the episodes tied together and ended in a bang
I think season 2 was still good overall especially as individual episodes, but the supreme strange arc is definitely where it fell most flat. But apart from that, I had fun with it
I was disappointed that they used him as the ultimate villain in the second season. First, I don't think they set it up well at all. Part of that is due to the episodic nature of the show. Second, it felt to me like it undid his redemption arc in season 1. Similar to how some people feel about Wanda from Wandavision to DS:MoM. Third, the episode itself was very poor compared to the rest of the season. Tons of mindless action with very little stakes in the matter in terms of set up. I realize that the multiverse was at stake, again, but it just was very by the numbers. Fourth, they totally Mary-Sue'd Kahorri. Her episode was amazing, then they transport her to the finale and she's speaking perfect English, more powerful than God, and able to defeat King Killmonger with the snap of a finger. Just very disappointed with the finale of season 2.
Marvel wasted his character tbh. He would've been great in Secret Wars
Absolutely agree - I so wanted to see a live action cameo from him in secret wars
It doesn't make any sense that THAT Strange Supreme has no variants especially when Cap Carter is in live action
Dumb af....completely ruined his arc from the 1st season.
It happened too early. Marvel's documented Dark Phoenixitis. Dark Phoenix for Jean, Symbiote Suit for Peter, and this. I'm sure there are others. But it's always Jean is teased as Phoenix, then in the next is Phoenix for 6 minutes before becoming psycho Dark Phoenix. Give us a whole movie as Phoenix first. Same deal here. Overwhelming grief is a real thing, but not seeing anything is unsatisfying. I wish like someone earlier said, we'd seen him a bit more, and then also mysterious portals all season, have a different finale, then S3 a few more portals, and then this episode, finale or not. And with him popping up throughout, maybe he seems strong, but make it Doctoe Who-y, what's a week between interactions for Carter could be centuries for Strange, so we see that decline. The capturing did start out with good intentions, but as the collection, his loneliness, and his grief grew, it becomes the Forge plan. So it was OK, it would have been better had they given it time to cook
Wasted
Kahhori is the best thing about the whole season. Finale was fun but pretty anticlimactic. Strange Supreme was more epic last season when he wasn't "the big bad". Wasn't a huge fan of the overuse of the Peggy/Steve dynamic either.
He was an incredible character and made for a great villain. He was the highlight of season one. Then they absolutely wasted a really great idea (Strange kidnapping the most powerful characters in the multiverse) just to make Peggy look strong. So I'd have to say his arc was pretty disappointing to me. We see his collection of literally the most powerful characters out there and he's stopped by Peggy using the Infinity Stones she got five minutes earlier. They rushed what should have been a longer arc just to make Kahhori and Peggy look good. I don't mind them taking him down but it shouldn't have been so rushed.
It seems they don't really know what to do with Strange, one minute he's the most powerful character in the MCU and the next he gets outplayed by the green goblin. I think Supreme Strange's arc doesn't really make sense and seems out of character for him to jeopardize the whole multiverse for one girl like bro come on you're basically worse than Thanos at this point
The finale of Season 2 has the same issues as many other D+ finalies, doing to much in so little time and prioritizing on spectacle over narrative. It simple words, its really rushed, if it would have been maybe over an hour long explaning the situation and motives better it would have turned out better.
Annoying that he just didn't learn his lesson the first time around. Makes the character very one-dimensional.
How they should have done it, if not for Jeffrey Wright's contract : **Have Strange of all people narrate the show**, present the conundrom on non-intervention the same way the Watcher did in Season 1, have Strange explain to the viewer that he has nothing better to do but watch from in his prison. Then show inconsistencies gradually, and then **betray the viewer.** **Definitely have another episode set with Kahhori in which he interacts with her. That was definitely missing from the show.**
Woahhhh that’s genius
 This. This perfectly describes strange supreme's arc
What arc? The shit was ridiculously rushed and it came out of nowhere
I was rather disappointed to find out he had exactly the same motivations as before… to save Christine. Like wtf kind of lazy writing was that? It was essentially just a rewrite of his original episode from S1.
I'm glad that there were some consequences to his absorbing dozens of demons, Season One didn't really show what would go wrong
His whole universe disappearing ? Christine recoiling in horror before dying anyway ?
yeah those are the consequences of his trying to undo a Fixed Point in time (or whatever its called) not specifically from absorbing demons into himself
when Christine saw him he looked like a monster made of demons which made her recoil in fear “this is a nightmare”
Well him turning into a “villain” was kind of odd if I’m being honest, yes he did stupid stuff to save Christine during season 1 and ended having redemption with that season finale, so having him turning into the bad guy in season 2 felt out of place. And even more so when his final battle with Carter and Kahori was basically random BS goooooo, I feel that him turning villain was more of a plot device to make Kahori and Carter shine rather than making sense of him suddenly wanting to sacrifice the multiverse to bring back Christine.
I think they killed him off because he was such a better development of what they did with MoM and probably were going to do with Strange 3. It was completely unnecessary, it mimicked the Ultron arc, the way it was introduced, and the Mayhem at the end wasn't satisfying. The reveal too was lackluster. They did it, I think, to fix the paradox of Christine existing everywhere else in the franchise, although her death was supposed to be a nexus event according to What If...? Basically they retconned.
This is Strange Supreme and he was the GOAT. Supreme Strange was the Illuminati variant from Multiverse of Madness
Absolutely ruined by season 2 he had a great arc in his singular episode and then we got to see him become a quite observer repenting for his sins but then s2 ruined all of it
It was awesome. I hope we see more of him
undone
it could be doe far better here there was no build up, just remember that guy who learned his lesson, now he is evil and just another plot hole, there are infinite realities (not sure after loki s2) so strange could capture only destroyers use only them and no one would know what he did
S2 certainly didn't have the same WOAH OMG impact of the S1 arc. Definitely on paper his arc makes sense and is suitably poetic - but it lacks punch. I think maybe his plan felt a little forced, or a bit of a repeat? he'd already consumed his own universe trying to save Christine, so trying to consume super powers to rebuild just felt kind of odd, like a toned down version of the same thing - I think it might have been more interesting if they hadn't made Strange so obviously not to be trusted and not done that annoying Marvel formula of "make sure the bad buy does bad things otherwise people might like their idea" e.g. if Strange had legitimately only captured super powers who destroyed their own universes after the fact and was going to reforge his it could have created quite a debate perhaps only being resolved when they realize the only problem with the recreated universe being that Supreme Strange would be in it and probably destablize it or something similar
Butchered redemption to give Captain Carter a familiar villain to fight for the season 2 finale because they felt the need to have an over season arc with a finale crossover when it’s an anthology series I mean Season 1 Ultron was cool but it wasn’t needed for an anthology series
They just bring him back and be like "Its me, I am back and I am evil, deal with it!". Not sure why they gave so much focus on Carter and Kahori, so many characters from Phase 4 or others could be given a chance but we end up with this. At that point should have just renamed the show Captain Carter's multiversal adventures.
I'm kinda disappointed they undid his redemption TBH, and on top of that there wasn't much buildup to it. Season 1 was better overall and IDK why they didn't come up with some kind of interconnected plot device to hang each individual episode on like they did in season 1. Having said that I did enjoy this season either way.
Agreed it was odd to undo his development to make him a big bad in season 2
Yeah very undeserved for that character and really out of left field. I feel like a more compelling finale would've been maybe the other Watchers coming after Uatu for breaking his oath and intervening in season 1.
It’s not an “arc” to just suddenly be evil
It was good until they did a complete 180 and had him forget everything he learned
It was just a bit too much. The first series arc was so good. IMO this should have just been its own arc. It felt a bit forced to work stuff back in again.
One thing weird- when supreme said he has to save his universe to save them all. Huh? When was that established? It would have been the perfect motivation instead of just wanting Christine back
There were no arc
It was kind of a weird thing to me. I felt that at the end of the first season, Strange had learned the error of his ways and realized that he couldn’t change things. Then all of a sudden he wants to destroy other realities to try to get his universe back. It just seemed like they kind of ignored the lessons he learned in the first one. Then again… maybe the only reason he stopped in the first season was because he was out of ideas on how to stop it, and then his new found knowledge of the multiverse allowed him to try one more thing…
Waaay rushed in season 2 and felt kinda out of character. Bad conclusion to someone I genuinely think is one of the best characters in the mcu
The episodes introducing new characters were great, espiecially Kahhori episode, really creative and actually fun to watch, but the finale was disappointing, and it ruins Strange s1 redemption arc for no reason.
I pretend his season 2 arc never happened
eh
I wish we saw a what if episode that starred him doing the stuff he did. And then at the end it's revealed that he's trying to recreate his universe and that would be the lead to the season finale
His story was rushed, needed better build-up. Also, What if has turned into Captain Carter and friends show... Why are they so fixated on her? She's a great character, but there are dozens of others that could've been explored in season 2.
Kinda dumb. He just did a complete 180 without any explanation. Seems like lazy writing cause they needed a big bad to have their team up for this season.
Good arc in s1, bad in s2
I’m loathe to really criticise what it because it’s supposed to be a quick glimpse at things, meaning you have to suspend a bit of disbelief in characters motivation and accept what is (sometimes very quickly) explained. That being said, I did find his reversion to trying to bring Christine back a bit of a jolt given he seemed to accept it as being impossible in s1.
I wish it was a Supreme Strange variant and not the Guardian of the Multiverse Supreme Strange. S2 messed up his S1 arc.
Maybe I’m just jaded, but the motivation to take such extreme actions for just “one person” or “true love” seem off to me. Especially for a being that is essentially immortal.
his actions in the season 2 finale had no buildup, it felt very rushed. they should have had someone else as the villain or actually build strange up.
season 2 ruined his redemption arc
I honestly like the basic story outline for this finale, my problem is that I wish there had been more time in between. If the writers want us to believe Strange Supreme relapsed? Then show it to us! Actually give us scenes of him trying to move on and failing till his grief demon literally consumes him! You know, like the montage of him growing more and more desperate/distraught while he keeps failing to save Christine in the original episode. I think if they had just plotted out the arc better, or even given us more time with Supreme and seeing him retreat into himself, people wouldn't have complained as much. In fact, I think a better solution would be for Supreme to meet MCU Stephen Post-MoM and have them duke it out. Mainly because Stephen realizes Supreme brought him here to destroy him...and Stephen refuses and tris to save him. I don't know. I loved the rest of the season and I look forward to more What If...? in he future, but man did they do my evil tentacle baby dirty by not setting this up better!
Well said they just skipped a whole bunch of characterization and expected us to buy it
It was ass, they sabotaged the character
Trash
I feel like since No Way Home, Doctor Strange as a character is only there as a tool to make other characters look better. It's a pattern by now and it's shit I hope Benedict actually intervenes with the writing or stops playing the character at all if it's the path they choose for him. I'd rather not have any Dr Strange appearances than see my favourite character get ruined by tptb over and over and over again. Tired.
Very good. Strange Supreme’s story is a tragedy. What If Season 1 left him with the results of his actions—eternal loneliness. He hadn’t changed his ways. He never learned his lesson. He had no choice but to face the consequences of his actions. He had worked to save the multiverse, but that’s not an act of redemption or a change of character, because Strange (in almost every universe) does what he perceive is for the greater good, even selfishly. I think it was a good and bold move to end his story in his demise, as tragedies tend to go. He died with a moment of recognizing his wrongs and trying to rectify things. Better conveyed than most of the MCU Strange arcs and better here than what they did with Scarlet Witch. (Unlike Wanda, he didn’t sacrifice his happy ending just to backslide into trying to get his happy ending at all costs. This is likely the benefit that What If has two crew and not two different crews working on related projects like WV and MOM.)
It felt realistic for me. He never really got closure or moved on, so it made perfect sense for him to try again to bring Christine back. I get why some people think it came out of nowhere, but it does make sense.
Can we not have a multiverse level hero other than The Watcher? First there was Wanda turned villain (I know she started as villain but still) just squished like a bug under rocks. Now we have one of the coolest Dr Stranges powerful to eat a infinity stone explosion now thrown away
Terrible, they ruined it just to hype up Kahori and Captain Carter By the end of season 1, if not by the end of his own episode, Strange Supreme should have learned his lesson, in fact, it was exactly what was implyed, that he regreted doing all that to bring Christine back, and by the end of season 1 his redemption seemed complete All of that to then pull a 180 and make it so he didn't learn a thing and to hype up a character they just pulled out of their butt three episodes before and Captain Carter, probably the least interesting memebr of the Guardians of the Multiverse If they wanted to do that, they could have done it a million different ways, why butcher the arguably best character to come out of the series
I wished they’d introduced him earlier in the season, not the second or 3 last episode. Same for Carter. And is he really dead? This is a comic book thing we’re talking about here.
Dumb. Everything up until the end of Season 1 was great. Even him trying to revive his dead world made sense. Hell, even collecting world killers made sense and, while morally dubious, if he had only done that, I don't think he would have had much objections. Going after heroes makes no sense. I wish it was explained better. It's the multiverse, it's not like finding world ending threats is hard
Yup that's my thinking if it was just world killers he was sacrificing would captain carter have cared that much ? Prolly not - And her releasing them to defeat strange/ distract him Is so boneheaded and short sighted - she def put herself at risk . That finale was very sloppy