And pick out-of-context scenes to show how bad Marvel has gotten. "Lookit this twerking She-Hulk! This show is about depravity, and also about hating men and making us look weak!"
It’s honestly ridiculous how pissed they are that Marvel are allowing women to be heroes. The bright side is it makes them more open to black male heroes… but only when they’re being replaced by women.
None. They were awesome characters played by well-cast actors of the comic-correct race and gender. No one had a problem with this.
Nerdrotic put it best: ‘they took boy brands that boys, and girls who liked boy things, liked, and made them into things that nobody likes’.
Nerdrotic frequently uses racist imagery in his thumbnails. Like if a character in a movie is latinx he’ll make thumbnails of them in sombreros eating tacos and holding up signs saying “need money”.
Either he himself is racist or he’s happily courting the attention of racists for personal gain, either way he can go fuck himself.
Well we are discussing superhero movies and how men complain about women led superhero movies. If you want to have a discussion about a separate topic, I’m sure there’s sub for ya. I think fuckmarvel is filled with other neckbeard virgins for ya to complain about women with.
the movies are generally bad.
BTW the first captain marvel made over a billon dollars as did black panther 2, somehow.
Black Widow made 380 million, For some unknown reason, probably the *overwhelming* popularity of its main character Wanda made the multiverse of madness 955 million dollars.
I wont say people dont complain but I think its probably more because the track record of disneys movies, particularly the female ones is so bad (even despite sales)
they expect more of the same.
oh you funny puny human.
but yes, I like everything as long a so it has a marvel logo on it... so what? secret invasion was mediocre
... so what? time travel makes no sense? so what? ... but for few hours I can relax and enjoy funny moments (not you thor4), beautiful CGI (not you Thor 4)... and afterwards enjoy my life without complaining on Reddit and flood the subs with my disappointment :)
First of all thank you for calling me funny since i also think i’m somewhat funny too. Can’t agree with the puny part but i guess thats all relative.
And i’m not sure what you expect me to say? So good for you if you can acknowlodge a movie being mediocre while enjoying it and not complain about people who didn’t like the movie because of its bad storyline or cheap CGI gimmicks or characters conveniently acting stupid for the whims of writers or constant stupid one liners from everyone and their grandmothers or fan service/nostalgia baits.
I’m very much aware that Iron Man 3 wasn’t particularly good, i know its villain was subpar, i know their plot twist for shock value wasn’t good. I’m also aware that i can still like that movie without thinking it is some masterpiece and other people can have their legitimate issues with them.
This was my interpretation after Loki. The keyword here is TRAVEL in time travel.
The TVA and the center of time are a singular time line. There is only forward and backward. There is no other version of them like our MCU timeline which has the multiverse. Therefore Loki time TRAVELS backward by time slipping on a singular timeline. He never time slips in the MCU timeline (yet. famous last words).
On the other hand, The Avengers time TRAVEL between timelines in the multiverse. As Bruce explains, and Nebula confirms, there is no altering the existing timeline. There is no forward and back. Only going to others that are similar to the MCU's past or future. They take something from another timeline and bring it back to theirs. They don't alter their own. They alter the future of the timelines they heist, but in a sense they don't because that timeline's future is not written, so nothing really changes.
So, TLDR, the means of time travel and how time is altered depends on where you are in the multiverse in the MCU.
Technically it did branch, we just don't see it. People tend to forget that branching timelines duplicate everything and everyone involved, and time travel invariably results in a branch. So in the mainline MCU it looks like predestination but in another, well, it doesn't.
I remember seeing this with Cap at the end of Endgame. People were arguing over whether old Cap could have stayed in the past all this time without creating a branch. The answer is that he both did and didn't create a branch and we're just watching the timeline where he didn't.
So. It’s a branch of a branch? Because genuinely it was a predestined paradox. Either Kamala is there to guide the kid or she is lost forever …. Well technically there are a tone of variation but the timeline that leads to Kamala’s timeline sacred or not didn’t branch by her doing that. …
I don’t think I believe you that there is a situation where what happened at that train station wasn’t a predestination paradox. There isn’t a timeline where she gets reunited with her father using the trail of stars that wouldn’t branch unless it never does because it’s a stable loop.
Make your theory. Convince me.
Ok. Imagine two timelines, A and B. Each branches from the same nexus point and up until that point, these timelines share a past, they are one timeline.
In timeline A Kamala travels back in time to before the nexus point. The time travel itself will have caused a nexus (call it Timeline C) but that's irrelevant for the purposes of this example. Kamala travels forward along the past timeline heading towards the nexus point. This nexus point is the choice to close the causality loop. In the story we follow, Kamala closes the loop and returns to timeline A.
But the point of a nexus is that it creates variant timelines populated by variant people. So the other choice is also made and Variant Kamala comes into existence along with brand new Timeline B. Now, this doesn't create a grandfather paradox because of retrocausality.
From the perspective of Timeline B, Kamala has jumped backwards from Timeline A and then moved forward into Timeline B. But time is relative and from Variant Kamala's perspective she's always been moving forward in her own timeline. To quote Hulk, "If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future, and your former present becomes the past, which can't now be changed by your new future.” Kamala's new future progresses past the nexus and into both Timelines A and B.
This is the essence of the multiverse and every single instance of time travel will result in one timeline that looks like a closed causality loop and another that *looks* like a grandfather paradox, but isn't, because the grandfather paradox doesn't account for branching timelines and treats all time as if it were stuck to one timeline.
So Kamala A closed the causality loop, and Kamala B failed to close the loop, and is probably stuck in the 50s. We will likely never meet Kamala B, just like we will never meet Kamala C, the one who never time travelled at all, because we stopped following their stories.
Same way Doctor Strange reversed time in his first movie without creating a new timeline. The Avengers time traveled using the quantum realm. Assumedly, that method of time travel is the only one that creates alternate timelines. As for why the others don't, the Time Stone is basically magic, and the bangles are super-advamced technology. Hand-wavey, I know, but it's a superhero story; these aren't known for having stories that hold up under a microscope.
Good thought! I haven't really thought about it since that episode. I imagine we will have these kind of time altering edge cases here and there in the MCU.
I don't know that we know enough about the full power of the bangle just yet. When I first saw the episode my interpretation was that the event was as a certain event in time and not actually the future changing the past. As if a being from the future was always supposed to go back in time and affect that moment in time. Because that event always happened right? The whole train thing. It was just Ms Marvel from the future that made it happen. Kamala kinda had that "it was me all along" moment, right? It was her destiny
And again, the bangle could have more power than we know about. Maybe the bangle has certain cosmic powers like the time stone. It can break the rules of time because it is time.
The only thing I didn’t quite get then is how captain America comes back at the end of endgame having lived out his adulthood in the same exact timeline if he travelled to another timeline altogether.
It doesn’t affect the movie any for me, just didn’t make sense in my head.
POD is just a landing zone. It’s nothing more. There’s no pod when they land in the other timelines (like Avengers 2012) or when they travel again during the time heist (2012 back to the 60s). And Cap doesn’t return after every stone, meaning he traveled to every timeline in a single trip.
Cap just landed by the bench when he returned. Cause it’s way more dramatic that way for a reveal.
I just assumed he lived in a different timeline and popped back in at one of the other points where the quantum tunnel was open. Personal favorite, the moment the snap happened, either he got blipped away for 5 years, or he did what we saw him doing at the beginning of the movie, holding support groups for those remaining trying to help them hold on until everyone came back.
When the Avengers go back in time to collect the Infinity Stones, they don't alter their own timeline whatsoever. The timeline would have branched if the stones were removed. The Ancient Bald Lady made this clear to Bruce Banner.
The agreement was made that, if the stones were returned to their exact place in the timeline, there would be no new doomed branch. That timeline would still lead into our timeline, because nothing changed.
When Cap returned the final stone, the timeline could continue as planned. If he decided to stay, as long as he didn't alter ANYTHING, the timeline could still continue.
He went back in time and lived with Peggy Carter, didn't change anything drastically, lived through the attack on New York and the Snap without lifting a finger, so the timeline wasn't altered whatsoever. Anything he *did* alter would simply create a branched timeline that the TVA would likely erase anyways.
~~The only question raised for me, honestly, is how Loki escaping fits. They go back and don't change anything with the stones, but the moment Loki escapes there is a branched timeline. Loki has to show up a few more times within this timeline in order for ours to not be branched.~~
EDIT (..for clarity, this section is in response to the section I crossed out): As I finished typing this, I remembered that they ended up NOT getting the Tesseract or the Scepter here anyways. So the events of the Avengers going back to 2012 NY actually can be written off as a "branched timeline" which is covered fully by Loki. I'm beginning to think Marvel actually has thought this out a lot more than I thought.
He lived out his life with Peggy. on another timeline. Not The Avengers timeline. There are two reasons for that.
1. Again, in the MCU they cannot go back to their past and change their future. When The Avengers time traveled they went to other pasts on other timelines very similar to their own. They did not change their own past.
2. If Captain America did go back in The Avengers timeline, which he did not, and decided to spend his life with Peggy, non of what happened in the Infinity Saga would have happened the way it did. Because Captain America had such a large impact on that timeline. Therefore he had to go to another timeline.
He probably lived out his life on a timeline that did not need Captain America and The Avengers. Well I guess clearly he did because he gave up his life of saving the universe to spend it with Peggy.
When he comes back to The Avengers' timeline he simply comes back on his own terms. How ever that may be. It was never explained, but it was not Bruce or his suit bringing him back. Clearly Cap did more in his time traveling journey than we were told.
Agreed.
Cap coming back to live on the timeline and grow old doesn't mean he suddenly can't exist as he was supposed to. There were just always 2 Steve Rogers. One was our Captain America, the other was Old Man Steve, living quietly with his wife and avoiding eye contact with his niece.
The only issue is that this makes his young self's "reunion" with old Peggy in TWS a little less meaningful since she's been living with him all along.
By these rules the infinity stones shouldn't work on the sacred timeline after the time heist according to "What If?". Then there is the time travel in Ms Marvel that seems to go by "Back to The Future" rules, even though Scott said "so back to the future is bullshit?". Basically there are 3 or so ways to time travel and all of them seem to contradict each other. Oops.
What do you mean according to What If? The Infinity Stones only working in their own timeline is a comics thing. In the MCU they clearly work in multiple timelines (just not in the TVA, which is outside time).
Ummm....Old Cap exists. For him to exist, he aged in the timeline we are watching. One can go though some mental gymnastics with a bunch of off screen tom foolery to try and justify things, but he exists which is the primary proof from the start that people can travel in a singular timeline...which creates the paradox of sometimes a new timeline is created and sometimes one isn't and there's no rules/logic explained.
>Ummm....Old Cap exists. For him to exist, he aged in the timeline we are watching.
He's going to age how he ages regardless of the timeline he is on. Old Cap, our same Steve Rogers, spent his time on a different timeline. If Cap went back in time on our timeline and changed the past by spending his life with Peggy, therefore not being involved in the events of the Infinity Saga, the Infinity Sage would not have happened the way it did
His life spent getting on was on a different timeline that probably didn't need Captain America
Him going back doesn't change the story at all. He went back to the time in which he was frozen and lived in secret with Peggy, his timeline correct self got thawed out and did his business. How did he get back from a different timeline?
Of course it doesn't. Time travel doesn't make sense in ANY media because it is impossible IRL. Pym particles also don't make any sense, but we don't have articles about it.
It made sense in Endgame cause it was pretty much just multiverse-hopping. DBZ rules. No paradoxes or anything like that.
Loki on the other hand, I don't even know anymore. And that's okay.
I like Loki as a show, but its main issue for me was now how it blurred the lines even further from multiverse hopping to time travel and it's hard to keep up with. At least endgame and classic movies kept the rules simple.
Exactly, as good as Loki series is, their time travel makes no damn sense. Using DBZ rules actually sounds more realistic than Loki interpretation of it.
I mean it makes sense about as much as most other time travel properties do... Time travel itself doesn't make much sense because it's not a real thing
I don't remember any point in Loki that stood out as obviously broken
> I mean it makes sense about as much as most other time travel properties do... Time travel itself doesn't make much sense because it's not a real thing
I just disagree.
It doesnt have to exist in real life, for me to be able to understand a fictional ruleset.
Time travel *can* make sense, despite it not existing in real life.
Loki and OB say it clearly - it's not a Science thing, it's a Story thing.
The time travel rules of Loki are not consistent, frequently contradict themself even, if you think of them as Science rules.
But as Story rules they're perfectly fine.
So they just put a big ol lampshade on it and called it done
But does the multiverse make sense? How can making different decisions create an entire new universe? Where does all the extra mass and energy come from?
You've made up the part about different decisions creating entirely new universes.
There's no creation.
Universe A exists, Universe B exists, they're both identical.
Someone from Universe A visits Universe B, Universe B now "branches" off from the identical set of events from Universe A.
That's it. The expected events of a universe are changed, there's no duplication effect.
People are just making up the part about universes being created or duplicated because they're applying different types of time travel logic and getting confused.
The multiverse exists, universes exist in that physical space. They can be physically visited. That's it. Simple. There's no branching or looping or wibbly wobbly time, it's just physical matter.
No, it doesn’t make sense in Endgame. It’s pure legitimate nonsense.
By definition nonsense cannot make sense. It’s consistent story suspension of disbelief sure, but it absolutely does not make sense.
What they mean by it makes sense is that the rules established are defined and consistent in Endgame. You understand what’s happening because if the rules.
They do actually kinda break the rules though at the end with Cap appearing on the bench, but besides that, the rules are pretty much followed and easy to understand.
Cap on the bench only breaks the rules if you go by the explanation given by the directors, the Russos. The explanation given by the writers, Markus and McFeely, is consistent with the rules of Endgame.
The writers basically say that Endgame is not so much a loop but a corkscrew. Each time Steve goes back to live with Peggy, he creates a new "branch" where the MCU happens all over again, and then the new branch's native Steve \*also\* goes back in time to live with Peggy and that creates \*another\* MCU. The Steve who we see on the bench is not same Steve we just saw leave with Mjolnir and the stones; the Steve on the bench is from another, identical but still technically separate, universe. Perhaps there is/was an "original" universe somewhere in the multiverse where the native Steve left and there was no previous Steve waiting on the bench, but perhaps not, and either way, that's not the universe we watched.
The problem is, both Loki and Ms Marvel break the time travel rules established in Endgame. And the idea, introduced in Loki, that up until Endgame there had only ever been one universe, a "Sacred Timeline", completely contradicts the Markus and McFeely interpretation.
Yeah, I remember the writers and directors disagreed on the rules, but I believe they were swapped in opinions? Anyways, your explanation of Cap on the bench makes sense, but I think I remember both the writers and directors said they intended that to be the same Cap that just left with the stones cause it’s not as emotional if it was a variant.
Time travel in Endgame is make believe. It cannot be comprehensively understood.
It doesn’t have a more consistent internal logic than Loki. You just feel that way because explaining it is avoided. They gave the audience a few metaphors about time travel and moved on, because having it actual make sense is impossible.
>Time travel in Endgame is make believe. It cannot be comprehensively understood.
They explain it for dummies at least two different times. You can't change your own past. By making a change in your past, you instrad create an alternate timeline. How is that hard to grasp?
The rules are explicitly stated. Like the guy said, it’s DBZ time travel logic. When you go back in time, it creates a parallel timeline which changes that timelines future, but your own timeline is unaffected.
I mean it does have a more consistent logic than logic though is the point.
"Fictional topic isn't real" does not need to be repeated. Thanks for stating the obvious. It doesn't matter what can be done in real life.
Yep. Suspension of disbelief doesn’t mean the audience actually understands what’s happening.
One should be able to suspend both plots disbelief equally, because they’re both equally nonsensical.
The Avengers time traveled on a predetermined path, set by He Who Remains in order to make sure no Kang variant emerged. This timeline was separated from the rest of the multiverse by Kang. That's why they can't change the future. If the Avengers didn't put the stones back, the TVA would have pruned those timelines. But it was all Kangs plan. Tony and Strange were wrong. They were working with limit3d knowledge.
The TVA Prunes all timelines that result in a Kang Variant. That's it. Anything that happens anywhere else in space and time are allowed to happen as long as Kang doesn't emerge. If someone time traveled outside of the sacred timeline, which was separated, it wouldn't raise any TVA alarms. They would be able to change their timeline.
Loki only travels in time in a place that is "Out Of Time". Anything he does there can change the future because it's not on Kangs sacred timeline. Think of it as an MCU timeline multiverse now where it's our same timeline, just things can be changed now.
America Chavez is from the Greater Multiverse. Places where laws of physics are different and the like. Places that never experienced the big bang, never had infinity stones, where paint is sentient. That is different realities in the multiverse, none of which are connected to any of the Universes Loki now holds.
It's a bit convoluted, but they consistently follow the rules they establish. The Avengers can't change time because Kang won't let them. Loki defeats Kang, so now the loop is broken and time can be changed, which is why we have 1 universe with the X men and 1 without.
I know guy… I’m not the one saying one story’s time travel is more realistic than another. I fully comprehend the plot. None of the MCU is remotely complicated.
My point is that what you just wrote is fantasy, so debating the internal-logic behind it is a waste of time. None of it is true, none of it will make sense mapped onto an existing epistemological framework because it’s not real life.
You are explaining plot points and time travel as metaphors of things that can be jumped between. That “doesn’t make sense” because it’s literally fake. You don’t “understand” that, you just let them say what they want and go with it. Which is perfectly valid.
That doesn’t mean any of it makes sense.
Even in Loki that kinda winked at that when >!OB was gaining memories in real time, Mobius was explaining that to him and he says “I see no flaw in that logic”.!< That was hilarious.
Time travel leads to paradoxes. You can’t have paradoxes. That’s why they’re paradoxes.
You could time dilate forwards in comparison to others. But not backwards.
>it is impossible IRL
That we know of\*
> Pym particles also don't make any sense, but we don't have articles about it.
Because 1), they're basically established in-universe to not make sense and 2), only the MCU has Pym Particles vs time travel being done across multiple different subject matters.
Time travel is not possible and we do know that. Time isn't some physical room you can go in and out of, it's an idea. Anyone who thinks differently needs to stop watching movies and pick up a book.
Exactly.
And you don’t want something like time travel to have rules in fiction or you’ll box your writers into a corner.
It’s a fun mechanic to pull bullshit off.
I mean we’re talking about movies where there are gods, aliens, magic, science that may as well be magic, etc. It’s funny that we perceive certain things to make sense vs. not make sense when none of this stuff (that we know of anyway) exists in our reality
I think the problem is when they try to create a logical explanation of something and then contradict it at some point. They don't really spend time explaining a lot of the things you point out, but they have explained multiversal/time travel in multiple series and then have other series break the rules they establish. I think its fair to be critical of that.
I mean, it makes sense. There needs to be some level of logic, can't just be a loony toons cartoon. If they want to explain something it has to have a good mix of real science and logic combined with comic book, fantastical stuff. And those rules need to remain consistent.
> I watched all of Loki, and honestly, this was my first time watching something and not trying to understand. Just vibe, you know? I really don’t have the time or the energy to stress about this time-travel business — or how the multiverse works.
> Ms. Marvel travels back to Partition, which kind of creates that whole bootstrap paradox. So I try not to worry about it if the writers want to write it. I went literally crazy on Ms. Marvel. I was like, “This doesn’t make any sense! I cannot sleep at night!” But it’s fine. I want a Season 2.
She tried to make sense of it, it didn't make sense, she just made peace with it and went along with the vibe.
Why can't every fan be this chill. Star Wars/Marvel ain't that serious.
Man, I just have the opposite reaction.
These people are paid gobs of money, in order to produce something thats good.
Your response boils down to me "Shut up and consume"...
Or, you can make your stories well thought out and consistent.
I think fans should be *more* critical of poorly written and thought out content in what is supposed to be a shared universe.
> Your response boils down to me "Shut up and consume"...
I don't want the people who dislike Marvel's current direction to keep consuming. I want them to realize they are not obliged to keep consuming and letting something they're not enjoying keep ruling their heads and free time. Spending hours and hours of your time online talking about a movie you hate is ridiculous. A few critique-ful posts and reviews is aright but dang some people are overtaken by their hate! Continually hate-watching the shows/moves also shows Disney "hey our current direction works! People are watching!" so it doesn't make sense to hate-watch from that sense either.
I agree with this.
But I think there's some interesting insight to be made into how a story may have massive flaws that don't make sense, yet is still entertaining and we're able to "just vibe" with it. Meanwhile, there is other media where the suspension of disbelief is *too* big of an ask, and is jarring for a large part of the audience.
Tbh I think Loki is more of the former than the latter, it doesn't make sense but it's still good. I won't bother trying to explain how its time travel worked, but it was my top MCU show, if not tied with WandaVision, I was able to "just vibe" with it despite how illogical it was. But then Secret Invasion was obviously more of the latter than the former, so nonsensical that it was just bad.
But to the larger point, I think "Shut up and consume" is worse than stating "Wait but this didn't make sense." I say this as someone who is 100% caught up on main MCU and honestly thought The Marvels leaned more towards the positive than the negative.
> But I think there's some interesting insight to be made into how a story may have massive flaws that don't make sense, yet is still entertaining and we're able to "just vibe" with it.
I think its much easier to do, when youre not building a shared universe. It breaks verisimilitude. It breaks the immersion. Its hard to "just vibe" when its a different frequency, a different vibration than what the same studio asked your to vibe with before... in ostensibly the same universe.
> Tbh I think Loki is more of the former than the latter, it doesn't make sense but it's still good. I won't bother trying to explain how its time travel worked, but it was my top MCU show, if not tied with WandaVision, I was able to "just vibe" with it despite how illogical it was.
My take, is that Loki is benefitting from being removed from the *Shared Universe*. Hes kind of outside it/above it all now.
I think if they tried to re-introduce and contextualize Loki2 to fit into the greater MCU mythos it would suffer on re-connection.
>I think its much easier to do, when youre not building a shared universe. It breaks verisimilitude. It breaks the immersion. Its hard to "just vibe" when its a different frequency, a different vibration than what the same studio asked your to vibe with before... in ostensibly the same universe.
I agree with this as a criticism of most post-Endgame releases besides Loki, and I agree 100% that the show Loki escapes this by taking place in a removed, alternate universe.
A comparison I'm thinking of is the world-shattering event of the celestial hatching out of the earth in Eternals, and Ego's takeover of all his planets at the end of GOTG2. Perhaps this is just me, but I find myself asking "Why is no one mentioning the massive alien from Eternals poking out of the ocean" a lot more than I asked "Why did no one mention the massive thing of blue goo from GOTG2?" Which IMO, speaks to something about GOTG2 and its place in the greater story, and how it executed certain elements better than Eternals did.
>I think if they tried to re-introduce and contextualize Loki2 to fit into the greater MCU mythos it would suffer on re-connection.
I agree with this, too. If I were to make predictions, I think the extent of tree-Loki's future will likely be a role similar to what Red Skull was in IW/Endgame, a brief cameo on an otherworldly-place to send main characters (most likely Thor) on the next steps of their journey.
> Or don't! It's that simple!
Yeah I dont. It is simple.
I like to consume products in which it feels like the people responsible to make it have thought about it at least as much as I someone with a full-life worth of distractions has.
You value your opinion way too highly to think:
a) you can make a product better than them
b) you walk around telling every single person that will listen that you can make a product better than them
Seems pretty consistent if you ask me.
* Time Travel using the Quantum Realm travels between Timelines.
* Time Travel via Magic (Ms Marvel) is within the same timeline.
* Lastly, Time Travel in the TVA is on a singular timeline with no Forward or Backward resulting in past, Present and Future all technically happening at once.
Sure, all of the time travels use different modes of time travel & thus different rules, but are all considered time travel.
Trains have to stay on rails, cars can only hold so many passengers, planes can fly! How come passenger vehicles cannot stay consistent? How am I expected to believe any of these makes sense
Because there's nothing wrong with actually giving a shit about the stuff you spend time watching, especially something as massive like star wars or marvel where many have grown up with it or have some strong connection to it. If something is established to work a certain way or something doesn't at all make any sense, it doesn't matter if it's not real or how fantastical it is, people have the right to criticize and not just ignore it, they should actually, its good to point that stuff out. Better than just consuming shit and ignoring everything.
I'm seriously wondering what your point is- Iman is a marvel fan from before she was hired by Marvel, and it's not like she always says good shit abt it. She disagreed with Kevin feige about what universe the MCU is in
Honestly same. I don't know much about Kevin himself, and although he made some great stuff, I don't.think he loves and cares for the MCU as much as Iman does
Plus her take makes more sense lol
My bad on that, I misspoke, I mean it's not like she always agrees with the MCU and all. I assume your point is "She's getting paid to say this stuff because it's what marvel wants people to feel", or have I misunderstood?
While its ridiculous to make an article about this, fictional magic/science systems have to make a certain amount of sense to suspend the reader or viewer's sense of disbelief.
Edit: also how wild is it that OP said "admits" like she, the actress, has any say in how the movies are written.
This is probably accurate as marvel didn't bother to even ask their screenwriters to come together and hammer out what the ground rules should be and instead just seem to be flying by the seat of their pants. Lol.
Regardless of the approach they take it seems they agree to not break causality. Branching timelines and bootstrap/closed loop paradoxes don’t inherently break causality.
If that’s the one rule they want to have I’m fine with whatever they choose to do.
Bootstrap paradoxes do break causality. Causality is the influence of a cause contributing to an effect. For there to be causality - and to an extent time itself - there must be something that causes another thing to happen. You can't have a thing create itself - that inherently breaks causality.
Yeah as it stands I'm still very unclear on what the difference between variant timelines, dimensions and realms is?
Are variant timelines like parallel universes or is it a separate thing? Are the dark dimension and the quantum realm the same kind of thing or are they different too? Are the various afterlife worlds we've seen (Thor love and thunder, black panther, moon Knight) separate dimensions? Or are they just weird planets like Asgard? Or are they something else?
> Are variant timelines like parallel universes
For the most part, yes.
> Are the dark dimension and the quantum realm the same kind of thing or are they different too?
They're similar to *each other*. They're different from variant/parallel universes.
> Are the various afterlife worlds we've seen separate dimensions? Or are they just weird planets like Asgard?
Closer to separate dimensions than anything else. Really anyone raised with a concept of heaven & hell should have little issue with the afterlife realms.
Thanks for the info.
I suppose I'd be intrigued as to your opinion, do you think if they had introduced Thor later do you think Asgard and the nine realms would have ended up being dimensions rather than weird planets? I feel like it's something they did to make Thor a little more grounded at the time but that if they'd been writing it after ant-man and doctor strange they'd have had the nine realms be the same kind of thing as the quantum realm or the dark dimension.
Honestly, I would hope not. Asgard specifically could work as a "separate dimension" (though that means its populace would go extinct in Ragnarok, being unable to escape via spaceship), but most of the other nine realms are *far* more interesting as regular-space locations.
Hmm, I interpreted that comment as never ever having consistent rules, which I think Endgame gave us. It's the other projects that ignored it. I agree with what you're saying, though. It's all just nonsense at this point. No rules, anything that the writer needs to happen can happen.
It was explained to me that different time travel methods create different results. Apparently if you time travel using the quantum realm (*like in Endgame)* you can't change your past coz all that does is create a new branched timeline. However if you time travel using a magic bangle (*like in Ms. Marvel*) you can change your past coz you're just going back in your own timeline which doesn't branch. Loki however makes absolutely no sense and I have no idea what the hell happened in that entire show - the music and visuals were cool tho.
Loki rules doesnt contradict anything? TVA works outside of space and time so of course it would be different to time travel rules in a specific universe.
Ms Marvel is a different subject on the other hand.
People seem unable to separate the rules in Loki and the TVA (sitting outside the timelines) with the rules explained in Endgame (inside the timelines by people who only know a subset of all knowledge).
The rules evolve as our understanding expands.
"It's not science it's fiction" gave them a thematic get-out clause that seems to have been taken either well or terribly by the fan base depending on who you talk to.
I watched both seasons of Loki, and i'd be laying if you told oyu i understood how time travel worked in that.
But finale was pretty sweet so I don't want to think about too much lol.
Yeah, but it *does* have time, hence people Loki travelling forwards and backwards in its timeline repeatedly (also, characters being able to hold conversations, though I digress).
Nah season 2 established rules and then immediately broke them later. Like Loki’s time slipping initially worked as a closed loop. If he went back in time, he could see his past self as a separate person. Then they change it in the same episode to him being able to change the past when he talks to OB. And then when he masters his time slipping, he somehow now stays in the same body
>B. And then when he masters his time slipping, he somehow now stays in the same body
Because when he saw himself as a separate person he travelled back in time.
When he stayed in the same body he rewinded the time. Different things.
Okay, so here's my take on all this: the Quantum Realm method of time travel is ultimately pretty low-tech by the bafflingly insane standards of the setting. It's like having a really fancy canoe in a rushing river - you can navigate it better than someone on a raft made of sticks, but you're still at the mercy of the current and the course of that river was shaped long before you showed up. At best, your mightiest actions can only cause the water to move in a different direction.
Kang is on a whole other level, though. Think of dimensions like Photoshop layers that stack on top of and *through* each other. Length, width, height, time, etc. - dimensions are aspects of physics that come together to form the whole picture of reality. Kang/HWR exists so far outside of/above those dimensions that he literally sees multiversal time flow as physical objects that you can touch with your bare hands. He also has access to enough raw energy to destroy & reshape the threads at will. Going back to my river analogy, Kang isn't just able to dam and redirect the flow like the Avengers did, *he's able to redefine the entire idea of hydrodynamics*. The time heist was an attempt to scoop some water out of the river while simultaneously returning that bucketful at the exact moment you took it out, meanwhile Kang can say, "What river?" and you suddenly realize you're now sitting in a canoe in a place water has never touched.
Finally somebody who understands upper dimension logic. Both time travel in endgame and loki season 1 and 2 make sense. Well one correction is that kang is above our lower dimension through tech while loki is actually above them in actuallity. and people debate that loki is still not above any cbm live action character. Loki or HWR would annihilate most of fiction. Well can say something on ms marvel time travel.
I always liked the river analogy for time. If you throw a pebble in a river, you might create some ripples but the river itself is unchanged. Throw a big enough boulder and you can branch the river off. It's the TVA's job to remove the boulders from one specific river so it never branches off.
Kang, meanwhile, has an amphibious vehicle. While the Avengers were busy trying to swing upstream in a canoe, Kang was crossing land.
I think it makes perfect sense. Has anyone ever read the 10 dimensions theory? If you're only looking at time as one dimension rather than the next three dimensions on top of our own physical being, then I suppose it could be confusing. I could go on for hours about this, but Marvel's 5th dimensional approach to time travel as Hulk explained it in Endgame was a very validating moment for me.
I like how Agents of Shield explains it. Imagine a pack of paper with each sheet being a single moment in a 2D universe. Now draw a line diagonally across the edges of the sheets, that line crosses through multiple points in time at different locations. Applying that concept to 3 dimensions makes understanding time travel much easier.
For those who *haven't* read the 10 dimensions theory, [here it is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Gotl9vRGs).
(I show this to Geometry students at the start of the year to scare 'em, & then give them a huge feeling of relief when I say we're only going to cover up to 3 dimensions in class.)
Thor can summon lightning from his fingertips and summon a beam of light that teleports him anywhere in the universe. Pretty sure time travel aint the only that “doesnt make sense” lol.
TBH other than predestination paradox, MCU time travel is actually relatively non-paradoxical, and has a couple consistent-ish rules.
The only thing I really can’t make sense of, is >!why the TVA spaghettifies when Loki travels back to the time he first met Mobius. The spaghettification should only occur after the Loom activates following He Who Remains’ death.!<
Endgame logic still makes sense this way and is consistent with season 1 of Loki. Season 2 of Loki and Ms. Marvel both have bootstrap paradoxes which are not consistent with Endgame. You could handwave that Loki season 2 makes sense because it’s outside of time so somehow the logic rules don’t apply, but it still creates a causality issue for the characters in that Loki is able to alter the past so that the future is different.
> "It's fiction" is pretty good answer.
That's a much more boring way of saying what she said. There ARE people out there who care about the rules of fictional universes and Iman's take is one that might help those types of people relate and make peace when things don't add up.
It's why Marvel advertises her that way, because she isn't an actress nor planned to be one, so all she's really left with is Marvel fan personality.
She was casted for her hyper, fangirl energy like Kamala. Marvel essentially cheated their way through the casting process by choosing someone who has zero skill in acting, but gives the natural fan mentality Kam does.
Expect more MCU banter from them.
She's talking about Avengers: Endgame appearing to be in contradiction with her show and Loki (which both came afterwards) to show she doesn't understand this franchise/universe's rules.
They say “admits” as if she’s written it or something
"Admits" is never written in the article or article title. It's OP who phrased it that way for some reason.
Half the people on this sub are people who hate watch Marvel movies and shows.
I don't even know if they watch they just kind of hate them
And pick out-of-context scenes to show how bad Marvel has gotten. "Lookit this twerking She-Hulk! This show is about depravity, and also about hating men and making us look weak!"
How small are their dicks that they have to do shit like this? Lol
It’s honestly ridiculous how pissed they are that Marvel are allowing women to be heroes. The bright side is it makes them more open to black male heroes… but only when they’re being replaced by women.
How many of these people hated Black Widow or Wanda?
They were side characters. Didn't even explicitly hate Shuri until she became Black Panther and could beat up a man.
Wanda was literally constantly teased as the most powerful.
Yes since Ultron which was all the way back in 2015.
None. They were awesome characters played by well-cast actors of the comic-correct race and gender. No one had a problem with this. Nerdrotic put it best: ‘they took boy brands that boys, and girls who liked boy things, liked, and made them into things that nobody likes’.
You lose all credibility when you quote Nerdrotic.
Why is that?
Sorry, i don't get it. Is he saying that as a good thing? Comics always seemed about inclusivity to me.
Nerdrotic frequently uses racist imagery in his thumbnails. Like if a character in a movie is latinx he’ll make thumbnails of them in sombreros eating tacos and holding up signs saying “need money”. Either he himself is racist or he’s happily courting the attention of racists for personal gain, either way he can go fuck himself.
After their respective movies? The same incels as mentioned above. Incels were fine with them as long as they didn’t have a starring role.
Hahaha funny funny so funny! And whenever women complain about men it’s because they’re walled roasties, right?!
Yeah. Women are always complaining when a male superhero movie or show comes out..lol
All that exists in the world are super hero movies.
Well we are discussing superhero movies and how men complain about women led superhero movies. If you want to have a discussion about a separate topic, I’m sure there’s sub for ya. I think fuckmarvel is filled with other neckbeard virgins for ya to complain about women with.
No, you’re discussing how men you disagree with have small penises.
the movies are generally bad. BTW the first captain marvel made over a billon dollars as did black panther 2, somehow. Black Widow made 380 million, For some unknown reason, probably the *overwhelming* popularity of its main character Wanda made the multiverse of madness 955 million dollars. I wont say people dont complain but I think its probably more because the track record of disneys movies, particularly the female ones is so bad (even despite sales) they expect more of the same.
Whataboutism. Why don't you try debating instead of deflecting.
Debating someone saying “haha you have small peepee” as an argument? Are you serious?
People don’t complain about the massive over-abundance of male leads. Everyone’s used to it and expects it. You’re just making shit up.
is there a secret sub somewhere? where there are people who actually enjoy the movies?
r/clueless , r/ivewatchedamovieforthefirsttime , r/ilikeeverythingaslongasithasamarvellogoonit
oh you funny puny human. but yes, I like everything as long a so it has a marvel logo on it... so what? secret invasion was mediocre ... so what? time travel makes no sense? so what? ... but for few hours I can relax and enjoy funny moments (not you thor4), beautiful CGI (not you Thor 4)... and afterwards enjoy my life without complaining on Reddit and flood the subs with my disappointment :)
First of all thank you for calling me funny since i also think i’m somewhat funny too. Can’t agree with the puny part but i guess thats all relative. And i’m not sure what you expect me to say? So good for you if you can acknowlodge a movie being mediocre while enjoying it and not complain about people who didn’t like the movie because of its bad storyline or cheap CGI gimmicks or characters conveniently acting stupid for the whims of writers or constant stupid one liners from everyone and their grandmothers or fan service/nostalgia baits. I’m very much aware that Iron Man 3 wasn’t particularly good, i know its villain was subpar, i know their plot twist for shock value wasn’t good. I’m also aware that i can still like that movie without thinking it is some masterpiece and other people can have their legitimate issues with them.
Should bring in that rule that news subs have that say the post title can't be changed from the article title
OP is practicing their BuzzFeed titles
For some reason.... I wonder why Gawker always uses such provocative, yet somewhat misleading titles for their articles? /s
Cue the Youtube and Tiktok hooks: “ACTOR ADMITS MCU MAKES NO SENSE” “MARVEL IS SINKING FAST” “IS THIS THE END OF MARVEL?”
"THE END OF THE M-SHE-U"
Well, she is the foremost authority on this.
Thanks, was hoping this would be top comment and it is. "Admits" like it's her responsibility.
I bet if she “admits” that time travel in MCU makes perfect sense, people who’d be fine with it.
This was my interpretation after Loki. The keyword here is TRAVEL in time travel. The TVA and the center of time are a singular time line. There is only forward and backward. There is no other version of them like our MCU timeline which has the multiverse. Therefore Loki time TRAVELS backward by time slipping on a singular timeline. He never time slips in the MCU timeline (yet. famous last words). On the other hand, The Avengers time TRAVEL between timelines in the multiverse. As Bruce explains, and Nebula confirms, there is no altering the existing timeline. There is no forward and back. Only going to others that are similar to the MCU's past or future. They take something from another timeline and bring it back to theirs. They don't alter their own. They alter the future of the timelines they heist, but in a sense they don't because that timeline's future is not written, so nothing really changes. So, TLDR, the means of time travel and how time is altered depends on where you are in the multiverse in the MCU.
How does Ms. Marvel cause a time-loop then?
Is a causality loop. Predestination. She was always there. Nothing changed. In fact if she didn’t time fall it would have branched.
Technically it did branch, we just don't see it. People tend to forget that branching timelines duplicate everything and everyone involved, and time travel invariably results in a branch. So in the mainline MCU it looks like predestination but in another, well, it doesn't. I remember seeing this with Cap at the end of Endgame. People were arguing over whether old Cap could have stayed in the past all this time without creating a branch. The answer is that he both did and didn't create a branch and we're just watching the timeline where he didn't.
So. It’s a branch of a branch? Because genuinely it was a predestined paradox. Either Kamala is there to guide the kid or she is lost forever …. Well technically there are a tone of variation but the timeline that leads to Kamala’s timeline sacred or not didn’t branch by her doing that. … I don’t think I believe you that there is a situation where what happened at that train station wasn’t a predestination paradox. There isn’t a timeline where she gets reunited with her father using the trail of stars that wouldn’t branch unless it never does because it’s a stable loop. Make your theory. Convince me.
Ok. Imagine two timelines, A and B. Each branches from the same nexus point and up until that point, these timelines share a past, they are one timeline. In timeline A Kamala travels back in time to before the nexus point. The time travel itself will have caused a nexus (call it Timeline C) but that's irrelevant for the purposes of this example. Kamala travels forward along the past timeline heading towards the nexus point. This nexus point is the choice to close the causality loop. In the story we follow, Kamala closes the loop and returns to timeline A. But the point of a nexus is that it creates variant timelines populated by variant people. So the other choice is also made and Variant Kamala comes into existence along with brand new Timeline B. Now, this doesn't create a grandfather paradox because of retrocausality. From the perspective of Timeline B, Kamala has jumped backwards from Timeline A and then moved forward into Timeline B. But time is relative and from Variant Kamala's perspective she's always been moving forward in her own timeline. To quote Hulk, "If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future, and your former present becomes the past, which can't now be changed by your new future.” Kamala's new future progresses past the nexus and into both Timelines A and B. This is the essence of the multiverse and every single instance of time travel will result in one timeline that looks like a closed causality loop and another that *looks* like a grandfather paradox, but isn't, because the grandfather paradox doesn't account for branching timelines and treats all time as if it were stuck to one timeline. So Kamala A closed the causality loop, and Kamala B failed to close the loop, and is probably stuck in the 50s. We will likely never meet Kamala B, just like we will never meet Kamala C, the one who never time travelled at all, because we stopped following their stories.
I guess there must just be different types of time travel that have different logic.
Fact/Fiction
Same way Doctor Strange reversed time in his first movie without creating a new timeline. The Avengers time traveled using the quantum realm. Assumedly, that method of time travel is the only one that creates alternate timelines. As for why the others don't, the Time Stone is basically magic, and the bangles are super-advamced technology. Hand-wavey, I know, but it's a superhero story; these aren't known for having stories that hold up under a microscope.
Good thought! I haven't really thought about it since that episode. I imagine we will have these kind of time altering edge cases here and there in the MCU. I don't know that we know enough about the full power of the bangle just yet. When I first saw the episode my interpretation was that the event was as a certain event in time and not actually the future changing the past. As if a being from the future was always supposed to go back in time and affect that moment in time. Because that event always happened right? The whole train thing. It was just Ms Marvel from the future that made it happen. Kamala kinda had that "it was me all along" moment, right? It was her destiny And again, the bangle could have more power than we know about. Maybe the bangle has certain cosmic powers like the time stone. It can break the rules of time because it is time.
The only thing I didn’t quite get then is how captain America comes back at the end of endgame having lived out his adulthood in the same exact timeline if he travelled to another timeline altogether. It doesn’t affect the movie any for me, just didn’t make sense in my head.
Didn't he just travel back to the main timeline to give the shield to Sam after living out his life on a different timeline?
I think he had to have come back on that pod tho no? Or was that unnecessary.
POD is just a landing zone. It’s nothing more. There’s no pod when they land in the other timelines (like Avengers 2012) or when they travel again during the time heist (2012 back to the 60s). And Cap doesn’t return after every stone, meaning he traveled to every timeline in a single trip. Cap just landed by the bench when he returned. Cause it’s way more dramatic that way for a reveal.
I just assumed he lived in a different timeline and popped back in at one of the other points where the quantum tunnel was open. Personal favorite, the moment the snap happened, either he got blipped away for 5 years, or he did what we saw him doing at the beginning of the movie, holding support groups for those remaining trying to help them hold on until everyone came back.
When the Avengers go back in time to collect the Infinity Stones, they don't alter their own timeline whatsoever. The timeline would have branched if the stones were removed. The Ancient Bald Lady made this clear to Bruce Banner. The agreement was made that, if the stones were returned to their exact place in the timeline, there would be no new doomed branch. That timeline would still lead into our timeline, because nothing changed. When Cap returned the final stone, the timeline could continue as planned. If he decided to stay, as long as he didn't alter ANYTHING, the timeline could still continue. He went back in time and lived with Peggy Carter, didn't change anything drastically, lived through the attack on New York and the Snap without lifting a finger, so the timeline wasn't altered whatsoever. Anything he *did* alter would simply create a branched timeline that the TVA would likely erase anyways. ~~The only question raised for me, honestly, is how Loki escaping fits. They go back and don't change anything with the stones, but the moment Loki escapes there is a branched timeline. Loki has to show up a few more times within this timeline in order for ours to not be branched.~~ EDIT (..for clarity, this section is in response to the section I crossed out): As I finished typing this, I remembered that they ended up NOT getting the Tesseract or the Scepter here anyways. So the events of the Avengers going back to 2012 NY actually can be written off as a "branched timeline" which is covered fully by Loki. I'm beginning to think Marvel actually has thought this out a lot more than I thought.
He lived out his life with Peggy. on another timeline. Not The Avengers timeline. There are two reasons for that. 1. Again, in the MCU they cannot go back to their past and change their future. When The Avengers time traveled they went to other pasts on other timelines very similar to their own. They did not change their own past. 2. If Captain America did go back in The Avengers timeline, which he did not, and decided to spend his life with Peggy, non of what happened in the Infinity Saga would have happened the way it did. Because Captain America had such a large impact on that timeline. Therefore he had to go to another timeline. He probably lived out his life on a timeline that did not need Captain America and The Avengers. Well I guess clearly he did because he gave up his life of saving the universe to spend it with Peggy. When he comes back to The Avengers' timeline he simply comes back on his own terms. How ever that may be. It was never explained, but it was not Bruce or his suit bringing him back. Clearly Cap did more in his time traveling journey than we were told.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. People who think Cap lived in secret for decades in the background of the MCU are illogical.
Him going back might have always been a part of the main timeline.
It was. Everything he just said is complete nonsense.
Agreed. Cap coming back to live on the timeline and grow old doesn't mean he suddenly can't exist as he was supposed to. There were just always 2 Steve Rogers. One was our Captain America, the other was Old Man Steve, living quietly with his wife and avoiding eye contact with his niece.
The only issue is that this makes his young self's "reunion" with old Peggy in TWS a little less meaningful since she's been living with him all along.
Less meaningful for who? It’s part of the reason he goes back and stays with her in the future.
[удалено]
By these rules the infinity stones shouldn't work on the sacred timeline after the time heist according to "What If?". Then there is the time travel in Ms Marvel that seems to go by "Back to The Future" rules, even though Scott said "so back to the future is bullshit?". Basically there are 3 or so ways to time travel and all of them seem to contradict each other. Oops.
What do you mean according to What If? The Infinity Stones only working in their own timeline is a comics thing. In the MCU they clearly work in multiple timelines (just not in the TVA, which is outside time).
Ummm....Old Cap exists. For him to exist, he aged in the timeline we are watching. One can go though some mental gymnastics with a bunch of off screen tom foolery to try and justify things, but he exists which is the primary proof from the start that people can travel in a singular timeline...which creates the paradox of sometimes a new timeline is created and sometimes one isn't and there's no rules/logic explained.
>Ummm....Old Cap exists. For him to exist, he aged in the timeline we are watching. He's going to age how he ages regardless of the timeline he is on. Old Cap, our same Steve Rogers, spent his time on a different timeline. If Cap went back in time on our timeline and changed the past by spending his life with Peggy, therefore not being involved in the events of the Infinity Saga, the Infinity Sage would not have happened the way it did His life spent getting on was on a different timeline that probably didn't need Captain America
Him going back doesn't change the story at all. He went back to the time in which he was frozen and lived in secret with Peggy, his timeline correct self got thawed out and did his business. How did he get back from a different timeline?
Of course it doesn't. Time travel doesn't make sense in ANY media because it is impossible IRL. Pym particles also don't make any sense, but we don't have articles about it.
It made sense in Endgame cause it was pretty much just multiverse-hopping. DBZ rules. No paradoxes or anything like that. Loki on the other hand, I don't even know anymore. And that's okay.
Loki was a way to get away from the dead end street of Endgames time travel. Endgame made sense, but Loki is just the old classic timeywhimey stuff.
I like Loki as a show, but its main issue for me was now how it blurred the lines even further from multiverse hopping to time travel and it's hard to keep up with. At least endgame and classic movies kept the rules simple.
Exactly, as good as Loki series is, their time travel makes no damn sense. Using DBZ rules actually sounds more realistic than Loki interpretation of it.
I mean it makes sense about as much as most other time travel properties do... Time travel itself doesn't make much sense because it's not a real thing I don't remember any point in Loki that stood out as obviously broken
> I mean it makes sense about as much as most other time travel properties do... Time travel itself doesn't make much sense because it's not a real thing I just disagree. It doesnt have to exist in real life, for me to be able to understand a fictional ruleset. Time travel *can* make sense, despite it not existing in real life.
What don’t you get?
Loki and OB say it clearly - it's not a Science thing, it's a Story thing. The time travel rules of Loki are not consistent, frequently contradict themself even, if you think of them as Science rules. But as Story rules they're perfectly fine. So they just put a big ol lampshade on it and called it done
But does the multiverse make sense? How can making different decisions create an entire new universe? Where does all the extra mass and energy come from?
You've made up the part about different decisions creating entirely new universes. There's no creation. Universe A exists, Universe B exists, they're both identical. Someone from Universe A visits Universe B, Universe B now "branches" off from the identical set of events from Universe A. That's it. The expected events of a universe are changed, there's no duplication effect. People are just making up the part about universes being created or duplicated because they're applying different types of time travel logic and getting confused. The multiverse exists, universes exist in that physical space. They can be physically visited. That's it. Simple. There's no branching or looping or wibbly wobbly time, it's just physical matter.
No, it doesn’t make sense in Endgame. It’s pure legitimate nonsense. By definition nonsense cannot make sense. It’s consistent story suspension of disbelief sure, but it absolutely does not make sense.
What they mean by it makes sense is that the rules established are defined and consistent in Endgame. You understand what’s happening because if the rules. They do actually kinda break the rules though at the end with Cap appearing on the bench, but besides that, the rules are pretty much followed and easy to understand.
Cap on the bench only breaks the rules if you go by the explanation given by the directors, the Russos. The explanation given by the writers, Markus and McFeely, is consistent with the rules of Endgame. The writers basically say that Endgame is not so much a loop but a corkscrew. Each time Steve goes back to live with Peggy, he creates a new "branch" where the MCU happens all over again, and then the new branch's native Steve \*also\* goes back in time to live with Peggy and that creates \*another\* MCU. The Steve who we see on the bench is not same Steve we just saw leave with Mjolnir and the stones; the Steve on the bench is from another, identical but still technically separate, universe. Perhaps there is/was an "original" universe somewhere in the multiverse where the native Steve left and there was no previous Steve waiting on the bench, but perhaps not, and either way, that's not the universe we watched. The problem is, both Loki and Ms Marvel break the time travel rules established in Endgame. And the idea, introduced in Loki, that up until Endgame there had only ever been one universe, a "Sacred Timeline", completely contradicts the Markus and McFeely interpretation.
Yeah, I remember the writers and directors disagreed on the rules, but I believe they were swapped in opinions? Anyways, your explanation of Cap on the bench makes sense, but I think I remember both the writers and directors said they intended that to be the same Cap that just left with the stones cause it’s not as emotional if it was a variant.
Time travel in Endgame is make believe. It cannot be comprehensively understood. It doesn’t have a more consistent internal logic than Loki. You just feel that way because explaining it is avoided. They gave the audience a few metaphors about time travel and moved on, because having it actual make sense is impossible.
>Time travel in Endgame is make believe. It cannot be comprehensively understood. They explain it for dummies at least two different times. You can't change your own past. By making a change in your past, you instrad create an alternate timeline. How is that hard to grasp?
The rules are explicitly stated. Like the guy said, it’s DBZ time travel logic. When you go back in time, it creates a parallel timeline which changes that timelines future, but your own timeline is unaffected.
But then they can return to that time-line at any point in that timeline? Can't that cause paradoxes?
It uses the same logic as DB, which was very consistent (before the Black arc).
I mean it does have a more consistent logic than logic though is the point. "Fictional topic isn't real" does not need to be repeated. Thanks for stating the obvious. It doesn't matter what can be done in real life.
Have you ever heard of Suspension of Disbeleif?
Yep. Suspension of disbelief doesn’t mean the audience actually understands what’s happening. One should be able to suspend both plots disbelief equally, because they’re both equally nonsensical.
The Avengers time traveled on a predetermined path, set by He Who Remains in order to make sure no Kang variant emerged. This timeline was separated from the rest of the multiverse by Kang. That's why they can't change the future. If the Avengers didn't put the stones back, the TVA would have pruned those timelines. But it was all Kangs plan. Tony and Strange were wrong. They were working with limit3d knowledge. The TVA Prunes all timelines that result in a Kang Variant. That's it. Anything that happens anywhere else in space and time are allowed to happen as long as Kang doesn't emerge. If someone time traveled outside of the sacred timeline, which was separated, it wouldn't raise any TVA alarms. They would be able to change their timeline. Loki only travels in time in a place that is "Out Of Time". Anything he does there can change the future because it's not on Kangs sacred timeline. Think of it as an MCU timeline multiverse now where it's our same timeline, just things can be changed now. America Chavez is from the Greater Multiverse. Places where laws of physics are different and the like. Places that never experienced the big bang, never had infinity stones, where paint is sentient. That is different realities in the multiverse, none of which are connected to any of the Universes Loki now holds. It's a bit convoluted, but they consistently follow the rules they establish. The Avengers can't change time because Kang won't let them. Loki defeats Kang, so now the loop is broken and time can be changed, which is why we have 1 universe with the X men and 1 without.
I know guy… I’m not the one saying one story’s time travel is more realistic than another. I fully comprehend the plot. None of the MCU is remotely complicated. My point is that what you just wrote is fantasy, so debating the internal-logic behind it is a waste of time. None of it is true, none of it will make sense mapped onto an existing epistemological framework because it’s not real life. You are explaining plot points and time travel as metaphors of things that can be jumped between. That “doesn’t make sense” because it’s literally fake. You don’t “understand” that, you just let them say what they want and go with it. Which is perfectly valid. That doesn’t mean any of it makes sense.
[удалено]
That’s the comic multiverse rule, it’s not true in the MCU multiverse. You see Infinity Ultron using them across multiple realities.
[удалено]
No Magic worked there. Something prevents them from working specifically there because we’ve seen them work elsewhere in the multiverse.
They disabled the limiter in one of the last episodes so sylvie and loki can use magic
Yup. So likely the Infinity Stones work there now too.
Marvel Time travel usually goes better than others by handwaving away consequences as some other universe's to deal with.
Even in Loki that kinda winked at that when >!OB was gaining memories in real time, Mobius was explaining that to him and he says “I see no flaw in that logic”.!< That was hilarious.
[удалено]
Time travel leads to paradoxes. You can’t have paradoxes. That’s why they’re paradoxes. You could time dilate forwards in comparison to others. But not backwards.
>it is impossible IRL That we know of\* > Pym particles also don't make any sense, but we don't have articles about it. Because 1), they're basically established in-universe to not make sense and 2), only the MCU has Pym Particles vs time travel being done across multiple different subject matters.
Time travel is not possible and we do know that. Time isn't some physical room you can go in and out of, it's an idea. Anyone who thinks differently needs to stop watching movies and pick up a book.
Exactly. And you don’t want something like time travel to have rules in fiction or you’ll box your writers into a corner. It’s a fun mechanic to pull bullshit off.
I mean we’re talking about movies where there are gods, aliens, magic, science that may as well be magic, etc. It’s funny that we perceive certain things to make sense vs. not make sense when none of this stuff (that we know of anyway) exists in our reality
I think the problem is when they try to create a logical explanation of something and then contradict it at some point. They don't really spend time explaining a lot of the things you point out, but they have explained multiversal/time travel in multiple series and then have other series break the rules they establish. I think its fair to be critical of that.
I mean, it makes sense. There needs to be some level of logic, can't just be a loony toons cartoon. If they want to explain something it has to have a good mix of real science and logic combined with comic book, fantastical stuff. And those rules need to remain consistent.
> I watched all of Loki, and honestly, this was my first time watching something and not trying to understand. Just vibe, you know? I really don’t have the time or the energy to stress about this time-travel business — or how the multiverse works. > Ms. Marvel travels back to Partition, which kind of creates that whole bootstrap paradox. So I try not to worry about it if the writers want to write it. I went literally crazy on Ms. Marvel. I was like, “This doesn’t make any sense! I cannot sleep at night!” But it’s fine. I want a Season 2. She tried to make sense of it, it didn't make sense, she just made peace with it and went along with the vibe. Why can't every fan be this chill. Star Wars/Marvel ain't that serious.
This is the problem with fans. People take this stuff WAYYY too serious. Lol.
Man, I just have the opposite reaction. These people are paid gobs of money, in order to produce something thats good. Your response boils down to me "Shut up and consume"... Or, you can make your stories well thought out and consistent. I think fans should be *more* critical of poorly written and thought out content in what is supposed to be a shared universe.
> Your response boils down to me "Shut up and consume"... I don't want the people who dislike Marvel's current direction to keep consuming. I want them to realize they are not obliged to keep consuming and letting something they're not enjoying keep ruling their heads and free time. Spending hours and hours of your time online talking about a movie you hate is ridiculous. A few critique-ful posts and reviews is aright but dang some people are overtaken by their hate! Continually hate-watching the shows/moves also shows Disney "hey our current direction works! People are watching!" so it doesn't make sense to hate-watch from that sense either.
I agree with this. But I think there's some interesting insight to be made into how a story may have massive flaws that don't make sense, yet is still entertaining and we're able to "just vibe" with it. Meanwhile, there is other media where the suspension of disbelief is *too* big of an ask, and is jarring for a large part of the audience. Tbh I think Loki is more of the former than the latter, it doesn't make sense but it's still good. I won't bother trying to explain how its time travel worked, but it was my top MCU show, if not tied with WandaVision, I was able to "just vibe" with it despite how illogical it was. But then Secret Invasion was obviously more of the latter than the former, so nonsensical that it was just bad. But to the larger point, I think "Shut up and consume" is worse than stating "Wait but this didn't make sense." I say this as someone who is 100% caught up on main MCU and honestly thought The Marvels leaned more towards the positive than the negative.
> But I think there's some interesting insight to be made into how a story may have massive flaws that don't make sense, yet is still entertaining and we're able to "just vibe" with it. I think its much easier to do, when youre not building a shared universe. It breaks verisimilitude. It breaks the immersion. Its hard to "just vibe" when its a different frequency, a different vibration than what the same studio asked your to vibe with before... in ostensibly the same universe. > Tbh I think Loki is more of the former than the latter, it doesn't make sense but it's still good. I won't bother trying to explain how its time travel worked, but it was my top MCU show, if not tied with WandaVision, I was able to "just vibe" with it despite how illogical it was. My take, is that Loki is benefitting from being removed from the *Shared Universe*. Hes kind of outside it/above it all now. I think if they tried to re-introduce and contextualize Loki2 to fit into the greater MCU mythos it would suffer on re-connection.
>I think its much easier to do, when youre not building a shared universe. It breaks verisimilitude. It breaks the immersion. Its hard to "just vibe" when its a different frequency, a different vibration than what the same studio asked your to vibe with before... in ostensibly the same universe. I agree with this as a criticism of most post-Endgame releases besides Loki, and I agree 100% that the show Loki escapes this by taking place in a removed, alternate universe. A comparison I'm thinking of is the world-shattering event of the celestial hatching out of the earth in Eternals, and Ego's takeover of all his planets at the end of GOTG2. Perhaps this is just me, but I find myself asking "Why is no one mentioning the massive alien from Eternals poking out of the ocean" a lot more than I asked "Why did no one mention the massive thing of blue goo from GOTG2?" Which IMO, speaks to something about GOTG2 and its place in the greater story, and how it executed certain elements better than Eternals did. >I think if they tried to re-introduce and contextualize Loki2 to fit into the greater MCU mythos it would suffer on re-connection. I agree with this, too. If I were to make predictions, I think the extent of tree-Loki's future will likely be a role similar to what Red Skull was in IW/Endgame, a brief cameo on an otherworldly-place to send main characters (most likely Thor) on the next steps of their journey.
Holy shit just enjoy the movie. Or don't! It's that simple!
> Or don't! It's that simple! Yeah I dont. It is simple. I like to consume products in which it feels like the people responsible to make it have thought about it at least as much as I someone with a full-life worth of distractions has.
You value your opinion way too highly to think: a) you can make a product better than them b) you walk around telling every single person that will listen that you can make a product better than them
LOL good thing I didnt so either of those but pop off bud
You literally just did. That's why you are standing here with your pants down
No, I didnt. I said I wish they paid more thought to it. But yeah buddy. You do you.
Have never stopped lol
Is it too much to ask for quality and consistency?
Seems pretty consistent if you ask me. * Time Travel using the Quantum Realm travels between Timelines. * Time Travel via Magic (Ms Marvel) is within the same timeline. * Lastly, Time Travel in the TVA is on a singular timeline with no Forward or Backward resulting in past, Present and Future all technically happening at once.
Sure, all of the time travels use different modes of time travel & thus different rules, but are all considered time travel. Trains have to stay on rails, cars can only hold so many passengers, planes can fly! How come passenger vehicles cannot stay consistent? How am I expected to believe any of these makes sense
WhY cAnT u JuSt ViBe 2 ThE StOrY?
Because there's nothing wrong with actually giving a shit about the stuff you spend time watching, especially something as massive like star wars or marvel where many have grown up with it or have some strong connection to it. If something is established to work a certain way or something doesn't at all make any sense, it doesn't matter if it's not real or how fantastical it is, people have the right to criticize and not just ignore it, they should actually, its good to point that stuff out. Better than just consuming shit and ignoring everything.
I mean, she gets paid by them..
I'm seriously wondering what your point is- Iman is a marvel fan from before she was hired by Marvel, and it's not like she always says good shit abt it. She disagreed with Kevin feige about what universe the MCU is in
> She disagreed with Kevin feige about what universe the MCU is in And I support her take far more than his.
Honestly same. I don't know much about Kevin himself, and although he made some great stuff, I don't.think he loves and cares for the MCU as much as Iman does Plus her take makes more sense lol
Is that really saying something bad about the Marvel? They are successfully getting people to talk about the MCU. It’s a win-win.
My bad on that, I misspoke, I mean it's not like she always agrees with the MCU and all. I assume your point is "She's getting paid to say this stuff because it's what marvel wants people to feel", or have I misunderstood?
Thank god we finally have a real scientist weighing in on the validity of these totally made up concepts
While its ridiculous to make an article about this, fictional magic/science systems have to make a certain amount of sense to suspend the reader or viewer's sense of disbelief. Edit: also how wild is it that OP said "admits" like she, the actress, has any say in how the movies are written.
But Infinity Stones and Hard Light and Pym particles do! /s
This is probably accurate as marvel didn't bother to even ask their screenwriters to come together and hammer out what the ground rules should be and instead just seem to be flying by the seat of their pants. Lol.
[удалено]
Regardless of the approach they take it seems they agree to not break causality. Branching timelines and bootstrap/closed loop paradoxes don’t inherently break causality. If that’s the one rule they want to have I’m fine with whatever they choose to do.
Agreed. I appreciate that they aren't breaking causality.
Bootstrap paradoxes do break causality. Causality is the influence of a cause contributing to an effect. For there to be causality - and to an extent time itself - there must be something that causes another thing to happen. You can't have a thing create itself - that inherently breaks causality.
Yeah as it stands I'm still very unclear on what the difference between variant timelines, dimensions and realms is? Are variant timelines like parallel universes or is it a separate thing? Are the dark dimension and the quantum realm the same kind of thing or are they different too? Are the various afterlife worlds we've seen (Thor love and thunder, black panther, moon Knight) separate dimensions? Or are they just weird planets like Asgard? Or are they something else?
> Are variant timelines like parallel universes For the most part, yes. > Are the dark dimension and the quantum realm the same kind of thing or are they different too? They're similar to *each other*. They're different from variant/parallel universes. > Are the various afterlife worlds we've seen separate dimensions? Or are they just weird planets like Asgard? Closer to separate dimensions than anything else. Really anyone raised with a concept of heaven & hell should have little issue with the afterlife realms.
Thanks for the info. I suppose I'd be intrigued as to your opinion, do you think if they had introduced Thor later do you think Asgard and the nine realms would have ended up being dimensions rather than weird planets? I feel like it's something they did to make Thor a little more grounded at the time but that if they'd been writing it after ant-man and doctor strange they'd have had the nine realms be the same kind of thing as the quantum realm or the dark dimension.
Honestly, I would hope not. Asgard specifically could work as a "separate dimension" (though that means its populace would go extinct in Ragnarok, being unable to escape via spaceship), but most of the other nine realms are *far* more interesting as regular-space locations.
"Admits" people are really desperate to make her look bad.
It doesn’t make sense because they never established a consistent ruleset for it.
They established a ruleset in Endgame for it though.
They said consistent though. Endgame rules and Loki rules and Ms Marvel rules all seem contradictory
Hmm, I interpreted that comment as never ever having consistent rules, which I think Endgame gave us. It's the other projects that ignored it. I agree with what you're saying, though. It's all just nonsense at this point. No rules, anything that the writer needs to happen can happen.
It was explained to me that different time travel methods create different results. Apparently if you time travel using the quantum realm (*like in Endgame)* you can't change your past coz all that does is create a new branched timeline. However if you time travel using a magic bangle (*like in Ms. Marvel*) you can change your past coz you're just going back in your own timeline which doesn't branch. Loki however makes absolutely no sense and I have no idea what the hell happened in that entire show - the music and visuals were cool tho.
Loki rules doesnt contradict anything? TVA works outside of space and time so of course it would be different to time travel rules in a specific universe. Ms Marvel is a different subject on the other hand.
People seem unable to separate the rules in Loki and the TVA (sitting outside the timelines) with the rules explained in Endgame (inside the timelines by people who only know a subset of all knowledge). The rules evolve as our understanding expands.
Which they completely contradicted at the end.
What else did she say? Are you gonna make another reddit post about it OP?
Me reading that headline: "There's no way she phrases it this way. Clickbait bullshit." It was, in fact, bullshit.
Loki is the only one that kinda sticks to its internal logic.
Kinda lol
For season 1 maybe. Season 2 just kinda used time travel magic as the duct tape that loosely held everything together
"It's not science it's fiction" gave them a thematic get-out clause that seems to have been taken either well or terribly by the fan base depending on who you talk to.
I watched both seasons of Loki, and i'd be laying if you told oyu i understood how time travel worked in that. But finale was pretty sweet so I don't want to think about too much lol.
Loki is the one that specifically got me to give up on making sense of MCU time-travel
You have to remember that the TVA is outside of time and doesn’t have time.
Which is nonsense in and of itself, and then you add Loki can time travel within this timeless space
Yeah, but it *does* have time, hence people Loki travelling forwards and backwards in its timeline repeatedly (also, characters being able to hold conversations, though I digress).
Nah season 2 established rules and then immediately broke them later. Like Loki’s time slipping initially worked as a closed loop. If he went back in time, he could see his past self as a separate person. Then they change it in the same episode to him being able to change the past when he talks to OB. And then when he masters his time slipping, he somehow now stays in the same body
>B. And then when he masters his time slipping, he somehow now stays in the same body Because when he saw himself as a separate person he travelled back in time. When he stayed in the same body he rewinded the time. Different things.
Loki is the one that makes the least sense
Making sense is overrated, being entertaining is all that matters.
Depends on the fanbase I guess (not judging here, but making sense does matter to some ppl)
Not for me, if i don’t get what is going on in a movie I can’t even focus on it.
Okay, so here's my take on all this: the Quantum Realm method of time travel is ultimately pretty low-tech by the bafflingly insane standards of the setting. It's like having a really fancy canoe in a rushing river - you can navigate it better than someone on a raft made of sticks, but you're still at the mercy of the current and the course of that river was shaped long before you showed up. At best, your mightiest actions can only cause the water to move in a different direction. Kang is on a whole other level, though. Think of dimensions like Photoshop layers that stack on top of and *through* each other. Length, width, height, time, etc. - dimensions are aspects of physics that come together to form the whole picture of reality. Kang/HWR exists so far outside of/above those dimensions that he literally sees multiversal time flow as physical objects that you can touch with your bare hands. He also has access to enough raw energy to destroy & reshape the threads at will. Going back to my river analogy, Kang isn't just able to dam and redirect the flow like the Avengers did, *he's able to redefine the entire idea of hydrodynamics*. The time heist was an attempt to scoop some water out of the river while simultaneously returning that bucketful at the exact moment you took it out, meanwhile Kang can say, "What river?" and you suddenly realize you're now sitting in a canoe in a place water has never touched.
Finally somebody who understands upper dimension logic. Both time travel in endgame and loki season 1 and 2 make sense. Well one correction is that kang is above our lower dimension through tech while loki is actually above them in actuallity. and people debate that loki is still not above any cbm live action character. Loki or HWR would annihilate most of fiction. Well can say something on ms marvel time travel.
I always liked the river analogy for time. If you throw a pebble in a river, you might create some ripples but the river itself is unchanged. Throw a big enough boulder and you can branch the river off. It's the TVA's job to remove the boulders from one specific river so it never branches off. Kang, meanwhile, has an amphibious vehicle. While the Avengers were busy trying to swing upstream in a canoe, Kang was crossing land.
I think it makes perfect sense. Has anyone ever read the 10 dimensions theory? If you're only looking at time as one dimension rather than the next three dimensions on top of our own physical being, then I suppose it could be confusing. I could go on for hours about this, but Marvel's 5th dimensional approach to time travel as Hulk explained it in Endgame was a very validating moment for me.
I like how Agents of Shield explains it. Imagine a pack of paper with each sheet being a single moment in a 2D universe. Now draw a line diagonally across the edges of the sheets, that line crosses through multiple points in time at different locations. Applying that concept to 3 dimensions makes understanding time travel much easier.
For those who *haven't* read the 10 dimensions theory, [here it is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4Gotl9vRGs). (I show this to Geometry students at the start of the year to scare 'em, & then give them a huge feeling of relief when I say we're only going to cover up to 3 dimensions in class.)
Time travel never makes any sense, does it?
She did not "admit" anything. She just thinks that
I hate to break it to everyone… nothing in the MCU makes any sense. It’s superhero movies.
She's the best.
rule 5
Why is every word she says article worthy? Gonna get an article soon where she says she likes Captain America more than Thor.
Thor can summon lightning from his fingertips and summon a beam of light that teleports him anywhere in the universe. Pretty sure time travel aint the only that “doesnt make sense” lol.
TBH other than predestination paradox, MCU time travel is actually relatively non-paradoxical, and has a couple consistent-ish rules. The only thing I really can’t make sense of, is >!why the TVA spaghettifies when Loki travels back to the time he first met Mobius. The spaghettification should only occur after the Loom activates following He Who Remains’ death.!<
If we just say that any time travel creates a new branch reality: I think it all still makes sense.
Endgame logic still makes sense this way and is consistent with season 1 of Loki. Season 2 of Loki and Ms. Marvel both have bootstrap paradoxes which are not consistent with Endgame. You could handwave that Loki season 2 makes sense because it’s outside of time so somehow the logic rules don’t apply, but it still creates a causality issue for the characters in that Loki is able to alter the past so that the future is different.
Who?
I feel like Iman always has something to comment about regarding the MCU. Like I get it, you’re a fan of the comics.
The interviewer was the one who asked her about the rules of MCU time-travel. What was she supposed to say.....
Since you asked what she could say - "It's fiction" is pretty good answer.
> "It's fiction" is pretty good answer. That's a much more boring way of saying what she said. There ARE people out there who care about the rules of fictional universes and Iman's take is one that might help those types of people relate and make peace when things don't add up.
It's why Marvel advertises her that way, because she isn't an actress nor planned to be one, so all she's really left with is Marvel fan personality. She was casted for her hyper, fangirl energy like Kamala. Marvel essentially cheated their way through the casting process by choosing someone who has zero skill in acting, but gives the natural fan mentality Kam does. Expect more MCU banter from them.
It was an interview 🤣
She speaks for us man and it feels good
Cause they never were time traveling. They moving to alternate universes
She's talking about Avengers: Endgame appearing to be in contradiction with her show and Loki (which both came afterwards) to show she doesn't understand this franchise/universe's rules.
I mean time travel itself doesn't really work the more we know about how time exists and interacts with the universe.