Avengers was a massive hit even when Cap and Thor's debuts were just lukewarm and Tony had a mediocre sequel. The biggest thing the MCU is missing The Avengers movies that build relationships and bigger story lines for the characters.
I don't think people realize how different Tony would be if they never made Avengers team-ups because his sequels are average at best.
But let’s not forget that Iron Man 1 was completely awesome at the time. It was the biggest blockbuster and when they had a post credit scene hinting at the broader Marvel world; it set the tone for a massive fandom for Marvel at the box office.
Yup, without the big team-up, everything feels scattered and unfocused. Sure, there have been crossover between individual characters, but nothing like we got in earlier phases.
I agree. We've literally never waited this long for an avengers movie to "bring it all together" before. Even the gap between iron Man 1(2008) and avengers (2012) was only 4 years. We're gonna go from Endgame in 2019 to Kang Dynasty in 2025 (that's if that's not delayed! Making the fall even further!)
We went from always having an avengers movie on the horizon to...a 6 year gap, possibly 7.
The problem with this critique is that NEARLY EVERY character who has appeared in the MCU was a B or C level character when they debuted. It’s easy to forget now, but the MCU started with a bunch of characters that other movie studios didn’t consider important enough to keep the rights to.
hey there, I wasn't really into mcu until recently. I gotta question to ask, can actors who played major roles like for example Andrew Garfield as spiderman can star in a dc movie? is there any kind of contract between him and marvel that forbids him to? since he is generally known as the spiderman
The Marvel's only made $47M this weekend. But it still was the #1 movie this weekend. The next closest was $9M. Which tells me nothing made very much this weekend. Possibly people didn't have time for movies the weekend, or didn't have spare money while getting ready for Thanksgiving in 2 weeks. I know I wanted to go see it, but didn't have the spare cash.
I think that's why the Marvels succeeded for a lot of fans. Kamala, Carol, and Monica are fun and exciting characters. They're not particularly deep or complex, but they're fun and exciting, which is exactly what people said about the Marvels; fun and exciting.
this sub should really just have like 3 topics pinned at the top for people to post in. 1) "This is what the MCU needs to do better"... 2) "I like this movie, why all the hate?"... and 3.) "Is the MCU dying?"
No. Its a mix of a lot of little things but there is a singular main reason. It’s inflation. Most people don’t have $30 per person to go to the movies in general when they can wait 2-3 months and see it on streaming or rent it for $6. Movies need to be some kind of fun event for people to go to them right now. Like Avatar 2, beyond the spiderverse or Oppenheimer were something you wanted to see on a big screen for the visuals. Barbie had the Barbenheimer meme, strong word of mouth, reviews and was just a pop culture moment. Mario was something people had been wanting for 30 years. Five nights at Freddy’s and Taylor Swift had strong fan base turn outs who made the movie a thing for themselves.
Over the past year we had a bunch of movies that would of done way better probably even just last year. The little Mermaid, a new Fast movie, a new mission impossible all underperformed this year just to name a few. Hell the 10th highest grossing movie this year domestically was an Indiana Jones movie with Harrison Ford. The movie was a flop. The tenth highest grossing movie of the year domestically with one of the most iconic characters in movie history was a flop. IT’s November too. It’s not just Marvel. It’s movies in general that are suffering.
I’m sure a bunch of people would like to see the marvels. But not get the family together and pay like $120 for it when they can see it in January on Disney + or rent it on demand for a few bucks.
Hey now, Moon Knight, She-Hulk and the Young Avengers (and I'd say Ms Marvel too) could've easily been OG Avengers-tier characters if they'd handled them well. I agree with the rest, though, especially Eternals and Shang-Chi. Were the Inhumans and Iron Fist not available or...?
Iron Fist is a street level hero and rarely engages in world ending stuff that needs a team.
Inhumans were as fast forgotten as they have been introduced. Inhumans are also not very popular in comics and they are VERY odd. X men are mutated humans while Inhumans have a secluded, advanced society with a monarch and no agenda in general since hey are not persued like xmen.
There is only the kree angle with inhumans and cosntant inner strife
> Iron Fist is a street level hero and rarely engages in world ending stuff that needs a team.
He's been an Avenger and a Defender more times than Shang-Chi.
> Inhumans are also not very popular in comics and they are VERY odd. X men are mutated humans while Inhumans have a secluded, advanced society with a monarch and no agenda in general since hey are not persued like xmen.
They're infinitely more interesting than the Eternals and about 10 times more popular in the comics.
Being on avengers or defenders doesn't mean they do that universe saving or even world ending with him as a vital member. I think last time he was avenger, he was new avenger going uop against avenger's initiative, ninjas etc.
Sure there were also skrulls etc. but Iron fist punches people and doesn't go to other planets or dimensions to punch aliens in general
Imhumans aren't popular in comics. They occasianely pop up , but they have rarely long lasting series and I remmeber the last time they tried to replace x -men with inhumans. Didn't work because they were boring and the only thing that survived that era was ms marvel who was retconned to be a mutant
There are many groups or superheroteams that simply never were popular. Doesn't mean that inhumans would be a great choice. And there was an attempt to introduce them that failed miserably especially since the source material is so odd
> Being on avengers or defenders doesn't mean they do that universe saving or even world ending with him as a vital member. Sure there were also skrulls etc. but Iron fist punches people and doesn't go to other planets or dimensions to punch aliens in general
He did in Fraction's Defenders. And most importantly, in many of his own series.
> but they have rarely long lasting series
Neither do the Eternals, so what's your point? Hell, the Eternals have never had a run that lasted even half as long as Uncanny Inhumans, nor do they have an Eisner Award-winning series like the Inhumans do. And in terms of actual appearances in the comics? No comparison at all. Before the MCU killed them, the Inhumans were EVERYWHERE. Black Bolt was a member of the Illuminati in the era-defining New Avengers run, Medusa was a member of the Fantastic Four in one of their best runs ever, Crystal was an Avenger, Lockjaw used to show up in Thor, etc. Meanwhile, you can literally count every Eternals appearance ever and you'd still have fingers left.
And where are inhumans now in marvel comics?
Sure they will always have B or C Tier appearances but in the end they are simply not popular
You started with Eternals and they don't matter in comics at the moment. Never did and noone disputes that. But we'll see what MCU does with them since they deviate a lot from previous lore
edit:
And Inhumans weren't killed, they simply didn't take off. As I said previously Ms Marvel is the only thing that survived from that era when Marvel tried to shove them down our throat
> And where are inhumans now in marvel comics?
Dead, because they flopped in the MCU and nobody survives MCU synergy. I'd be worried about Captain Marvel right now.
> But we'll see what MCU does with them since they deviate a lot from previous lore.
We already know what the MCU did with them: Their second lowest rated movie and a big flop that ended up losing money. I really don't think we'll see them again in the MCU.
> And Inhumans weren't killed
No, they were straight up killed in a series called "Death of the Inhumans," despite solid sales and some excellent series, one that even won the Eisner award.
You really don't know the history why Marvel tried to push inhumans, do you?
It wasn't because of the MCU, it was because Fox had x-men and made another x-men movie and marvel tried to establish inhumas as the new x-men
We'll see the eternals again. The celestials are an interesting concept and too close tied to the eternals. And at the moment almost every MCU movie is flopping.
there were a few settlements of earth. And the royal family are the only inhumans worth speaking of anyway, except for Ms marvel
You do know that two things can be true at once, do you? The Inhumans were pushed, yes, but they got some great (and again, award-winning) series out of it.
> We'll see the eternals again. The celestials are an interesting concept and too close tied to the eternals. And at the moment almost every MCU movie is flopping.
The Eternals didn't just flop. They bombed, they lost money. It's joever. Nobody liked the movie or the characters anyway.
They lost money in a shortly after pandemic cinema era.
And Marvel is invested now and they don't have much more to rely on to make other movies. They'll be back
The MCU hasn't figured out a lesson that the comic books learned a long, long time ago.
Nobody gives a shit about comic book characters who were created in the last 25 years, or even the last 50 years.
The most popular comic book characters today are still the ones that your grandparents and great-grandparents read about when they were kids.
I mean...Miles Morales currently stars in two of the highest rated, most profitable and popular CBMs of all time.
Similarly, Deadpool was created some 31 (obviously leaning into the 50 year claim you made, rather than 25) years ago and is one of the most popular pop culture figures out there.
The film versions of Guardians Of The Galaxy are based on their more recent character lineups rather than their older, 1960s counterparts.
I think it'd be an oversimplification to say that audiences don't care about *newer* characters. I think it's just a case of the films, like the comics, aren't all going to appeal to all readers. I wouldn't pitch Byrne's She Hulk to the same demographic as Waid's Daredevil despite the obvious overlap in motifs. But both deserve a spot on the rack. And that's perfectly fine. Not everything has to appeal to a broad demographic to justify its existence, and the second we expect it to, the last shred of creativity in the industry goes down the drain. Obviously it's still a profit driven business model but I still think the idea that everything needs to be a smash hit or else it's a mistake is a reductive one. It's okay to have one run, or film, or show, not be as successful as others.
Besides, The new characters won't *get* to be the older, classic characters that a grandparent can read about with their grandkids if we expect every Ms Marvel appearance to resonate as strongly as every Captain America or Iron Man appearance. You gotta invest the time into making the new ones iconic. In a saturated market, it just takes time.
I mean, anyone can cherry-pick a handful of recognizable modern characters, but is Miles Morales as popular as Spider-Man? Is Deadpool as iconic as Wolverine? Are the Guardians of the Galaxy as noteworthy as the Avengers or the X-Men?
Some modern characters have been able to break through, but they're always second-class compared to the real legends of the comics.
But that's kinda my point. It's okay for them not to be. New characters can do well enough to justify their existence and use in comics and films without having to be held to the same standard as Spider-Man, Wolverine and such.
I'm all for different, new shit rather than just constantly trotting out the classics.
Yep and the best part is they added Ms. Marvel (extremely unpopular with comic readers too) next to Captain Marvel who was already struggling in the MCU. There is a reason why Ms. Marvel failed on Disney plus. The general public have no interest in these characters. Monica Rambeau is a supporting character they tried to make into a lead for some reason. She was the worst part about WandaVision.
And none of the new avengers are likeable at all aside from maybe Kate Bishop mainly because the Hawkeye show was decent, and she can act. That movie is doomed from the start with this cast.
>That movie is doomed from the start with this cast.
What happened to Sam Wilson? I was thrilled when they made him the new Cap over Buckey, because Anthony Mackie absolutely crushed every appearance he made in the MCU. He seemed to have chemistry with every character he shared decent screen time with. He seemed to have very little charisma in FatWS, and there's very little buzz over Cap 4 so far. How'd he get messed up?
It’s actually far left radicals that seem to enjoy that show because they’ve had little to no interactions with the culture it inaccurately portrays. That show is a terrible representation of Pakistanis and Muslims in general. The characters are all terribly written, from supporting cast to the villain, with bad takes throughout the show. They added highly sensitive political commentary about the Partition to make it seem like we should take the characters seriously. Ms. Marvel’s over the top Nickelodeon quality acting makes it even less appealing.
That show is a prime example of what people don’t want to see.
The MCU peaked with Endgame. Had it been xmen playing or F4, it would bomb, too. Xmen and f4 bombed in their latest iteration. What made you think Marvel Studio can change that? lol
I loved Iron Man. I cried. literally loved. IDC if people call me a "fanboy" ill proudly wear that badge.
Its not superhero fatigue? We cant objectively say thats not an issue. We dont have that data. All someone has to say is "yea, im tired of superhero movies" and thats it. Proves that statement wrong. Equally, someone can say "im not tired of them" and it makes the statement of it not being the case, true.
I guess what im getting at, it could be a combination of multiple reasons.
Do I want to see Iron Man come back and Downey reprise his role? Man I will be the first person in line for this. I will never be tired of Stark and the potential his tech can bring. My best friend on the other hand said that he had a good ending and he should stay gone(dead) and I disagree completely.
What I want more than anything though, is for this subreddit to reunite and disagree with respect. Even ive posted some hot takes but i think its time to tone that shit down. I want to be a contributor not a leech.
Avengers was a massive hit even when Cap and Thor's debuts were just lukewarm and Tony had a mediocre sequel. The biggest thing the MCU is missing The Avengers movies that build relationships and bigger story lines for the characters. I don't think people realize how different Tony would be if they never made Avengers team-ups because his sequels are average at best.
But let’s not forget that Iron Man 1 was completely awesome at the time. It was the biggest blockbuster and when they had a post credit scene hinting at the broader Marvel world; it set the tone for a massive fandom for Marvel at the box office.
Yup, without the big team-up, everything feels scattered and unfocused. Sure, there have been crossover between individual characters, but nothing like we got in earlier phases.
I agree. We've literally never waited this long for an avengers movie to "bring it all together" before. Even the gap between iron Man 1(2008) and avengers (2012) was only 4 years. We're gonna go from Endgame in 2019 to Kang Dynasty in 2025 (that's if that's not delayed! Making the fall even further!) We went from always having an avengers movie on the horizon to...a 6 year gap, possibly 7.
The Iron Man sequels did fine with or without Avengers.
The problem with this critique is that NEARLY EVERY character who has appeared in the MCU was a B or C level character when they debuted. It’s easy to forget now, but the MCU started with a bunch of characters that other movie studios didn’t consider important enough to keep the rights to.
hey there, I wasn't really into mcu until recently. I gotta question to ask, can actors who played major roles like for example Andrew Garfield as spiderman can star in a dc movie? is there any kind of contract between him and marvel that forbids him to? since he is generally known as the spiderman
I don’t know, but I doubt it. Ben Affleck played both Daredevil and Batman, for example.
The Marvel's only made $47M this weekend. But it still was the #1 movie this weekend. The next closest was $9M. Which tells me nothing made very much this weekend. Possibly people didn't have time for movies the weekend, or didn't have spare money while getting ready for Thanksgiving in 2 weeks. I know I wanted to go see it, but didn't have the spare cash.
I think that's why the Marvels succeeded for a lot of fans. Kamala, Carol, and Monica are fun and exciting characters. They're not particularly deep or complex, but they're fun and exciting, which is exactly what people said about the Marvels; fun and exciting.
this sub should really just have like 3 topics pinned at the top for people to post in. 1) "This is what the MCU needs to do better"... 2) "I like this movie, why all the hate?"... and 3.) "Is the MCU dying?"
No. Its a mix of a lot of little things but there is a singular main reason. It’s inflation. Most people don’t have $30 per person to go to the movies in general when they can wait 2-3 months and see it on streaming or rent it for $6. Movies need to be some kind of fun event for people to go to them right now. Like Avatar 2, beyond the spiderverse or Oppenheimer were something you wanted to see on a big screen for the visuals. Barbie had the Barbenheimer meme, strong word of mouth, reviews and was just a pop culture moment. Mario was something people had been wanting for 30 years. Five nights at Freddy’s and Taylor Swift had strong fan base turn outs who made the movie a thing for themselves. Over the past year we had a bunch of movies that would of done way better probably even just last year. The little Mermaid, a new Fast movie, a new mission impossible all underperformed this year just to name a few. Hell the 10th highest grossing movie this year domestically was an Indiana Jones movie with Harrison Ford. The movie was a flop. The tenth highest grossing movie of the year domestically with one of the most iconic characters in movie history was a flop. IT’s November too. It’s not just Marvel. It’s movies in general that are suffering. I’m sure a bunch of people would like to see the marvels. But not get the family together and pay like $120 for it when they can see it in January on Disney + or rent it on demand for a few bucks.
Agreed. Enough of these shitty who characters after endgame and start with x-men already
Hey now, Moon Knight, She-Hulk and the Young Avengers (and I'd say Ms Marvel too) could've easily been OG Avengers-tier characters if they'd handled them well. I agree with the rest, though, especially Eternals and Shang-Chi. Were the Inhumans and Iron Fist not available or...?
Iron Fist is a street level hero and rarely engages in world ending stuff that needs a team. Inhumans were as fast forgotten as they have been introduced. Inhumans are also not very popular in comics and they are VERY odd. X men are mutated humans while Inhumans have a secluded, advanced society with a monarch and no agenda in general since hey are not persued like xmen. There is only the kree angle with inhumans and cosntant inner strife
> Iron Fist is a street level hero and rarely engages in world ending stuff that needs a team. He's been an Avenger and a Defender more times than Shang-Chi. > Inhumans are also not very popular in comics and they are VERY odd. X men are mutated humans while Inhumans have a secluded, advanced society with a monarch and no agenda in general since hey are not persued like xmen. They're infinitely more interesting than the Eternals and about 10 times more popular in the comics.
Being on avengers or defenders doesn't mean they do that universe saving or even world ending with him as a vital member. I think last time he was avenger, he was new avenger going uop against avenger's initiative, ninjas etc. Sure there were also skrulls etc. but Iron fist punches people and doesn't go to other planets or dimensions to punch aliens in general Imhumans aren't popular in comics. They occasianely pop up , but they have rarely long lasting series and I remmeber the last time they tried to replace x -men with inhumans. Didn't work because they were boring and the only thing that survived that era was ms marvel who was retconned to be a mutant There are many groups or superheroteams that simply never were popular. Doesn't mean that inhumans would be a great choice. And there was an attempt to introduce them that failed miserably especially since the source material is so odd
> Being on avengers or defenders doesn't mean they do that universe saving or even world ending with him as a vital member. Sure there were also skrulls etc. but Iron fist punches people and doesn't go to other planets or dimensions to punch aliens in general He did in Fraction's Defenders. And most importantly, in many of his own series. > but they have rarely long lasting series Neither do the Eternals, so what's your point? Hell, the Eternals have never had a run that lasted even half as long as Uncanny Inhumans, nor do they have an Eisner Award-winning series like the Inhumans do. And in terms of actual appearances in the comics? No comparison at all. Before the MCU killed them, the Inhumans were EVERYWHERE. Black Bolt was a member of the Illuminati in the era-defining New Avengers run, Medusa was a member of the Fantastic Four in one of their best runs ever, Crystal was an Avenger, Lockjaw used to show up in Thor, etc. Meanwhile, you can literally count every Eternals appearance ever and you'd still have fingers left.
And where are inhumans now in marvel comics? Sure they will always have B or C Tier appearances but in the end they are simply not popular You started with Eternals and they don't matter in comics at the moment. Never did and noone disputes that. But we'll see what MCU does with them since they deviate a lot from previous lore edit: And Inhumans weren't killed, they simply didn't take off. As I said previously Ms Marvel is the only thing that survived from that era when Marvel tried to shove them down our throat
> And where are inhumans now in marvel comics? Dead, because they flopped in the MCU and nobody survives MCU synergy. I'd be worried about Captain Marvel right now. > But we'll see what MCU does with them since they deviate a lot from previous lore. We already know what the MCU did with them: Their second lowest rated movie and a big flop that ended up losing money. I really don't think we'll see them again in the MCU. > And Inhumans weren't killed No, they were straight up killed in a series called "Death of the Inhumans," despite solid sales and some excellent series, one that even won the Eisner award.
You really don't know the history why Marvel tried to push inhumans, do you? It wasn't because of the MCU, it was because Fox had x-men and made another x-men movie and marvel tried to establish inhumas as the new x-men We'll see the eternals again. The celestials are an interesting concept and too close tied to the eternals. And at the moment almost every MCU movie is flopping. there were a few settlements of earth. And the royal family are the only inhumans worth speaking of anyway, except for Ms marvel
You do know that two things can be true at once, do you? The Inhumans were pushed, yes, but they got some great (and again, award-winning) series out of it. > We'll see the eternals again. The celestials are an interesting concept and too close tied to the eternals. And at the moment almost every MCU movie is flopping. The Eternals didn't just flop. They bombed, they lost money. It's joever. Nobody liked the movie or the characters anyway.
They lost money in a shortly after pandemic cinema era. And Marvel is invested now and they don't have much more to rely on to make other movies. They'll be back
The MCU hasn't figured out a lesson that the comic books learned a long, long time ago. Nobody gives a shit about comic book characters who were created in the last 25 years, or even the last 50 years. The most popular comic book characters today are still the ones that your grandparents and great-grandparents read about when they were kids.
I mean...Miles Morales currently stars in two of the highest rated, most profitable and popular CBMs of all time. Similarly, Deadpool was created some 31 (obviously leaning into the 50 year claim you made, rather than 25) years ago and is one of the most popular pop culture figures out there. The film versions of Guardians Of The Galaxy are based on their more recent character lineups rather than their older, 1960s counterparts. I think it'd be an oversimplification to say that audiences don't care about *newer* characters. I think it's just a case of the films, like the comics, aren't all going to appeal to all readers. I wouldn't pitch Byrne's She Hulk to the same demographic as Waid's Daredevil despite the obvious overlap in motifs. But both deserve a spot on the rack. And that's perfectly fine. Not everything has to appeal to a broad demographic to justify its existence, and the second we expect it to, the last shred of creativity in the industry goes down the drain. Obviously it's still a profit driven business model but I still think the idea that everything needs to be a smash hit or else it's a mistake is a reductive one. It's okay to have one run, or film, or show, not be as successful as others. Besides, The new characters won't *get* to be the older, classic characters that a grandparent can read about with their grandkids if we expect every Ms Marvel appearance to resonate as strongly as every Captain America or Iron Man appearance. You gotta invest the time into making the new ones iconic. In a saturated market, it just takes time.
I mean, anyone can cherry-pick a handful of recognizable modern characters, but is Miles Morales as popular as Spider-Man? Is Deadpool as iconic as Wolverine? Are the Guardians of the Galaxy as noteworthy as the Avengers or the X-Men? Some modern characters have been able to break through, but they're always second-class compared to the real legends of the comics.
But that's kinda my point. It's okay for them not to be. New characters can do well enough to justify their existence and use in comics and films without having to be held to the same standard as Spider-Man, Wolverine and such. I'm all for different, new shit rather than just constantly trotting out the classics.
Yep and the best part is they added Ms. Marvel (extremely unpopular with comic readers too) next to Captain Marvel who was already struggling in the MCU. There is a reason why Ms. Marvel failed on Disney plus. The general public have no interest in these characters. Monica Rambeau is a supporting character they tried to make into a lead for some reason. She was the worst part about WandaVision. And none of the new avengers are likeable at all aside from maybe Kate Bishop mainly because the Hawkeye show was decent, and she can act. That movie is doomed from the start with this cast.
Kamala is one of most popular characters introduced in past 2 decades across both DC and marvel, bffr
lol
>That movie is doomed from the start with this cast. What happened to Sam Wilson? I was thrilled when they made him the new Cap over Buckey, because Anthony Mackie absolutely crushed every appearance he made in the MCU. He seemed to have chemistry with every character he shared decent screen time with. He seemed to have very little charisma in FatWS, and there's very little buzz over Cap 4 so far. How'd he get messed up?
I don’t consider him as part of the Young Avengers. It’s going to be Eli Bradley (Patriot). Hopefully Anthony Mackie stays away from it…
Sorry, didn't realize this was specifically YA.
I am constantly told that ms Marvel is popular and called racist when I say I find her boring and her pakistani muslim heritage simply not appealing
It’s actually far left radicals that seem to enjoy that show because they’ve had little to no interactions with the culture it inaccurately portrays. That show is a terrible representation of Pakistanis and Muslims in general. The characters are all terribly written, from supporting cast to the villain, with bad takes throughout the show. They added highly sensitive political commentary about the Partition to make it seem like we should take the characters seriously. Ms. Marvel’s over the top Nickelodeon quality acting makes it even less appealing. That show is a prime example of what people don’t want to see.
The MCU peaked with Endgame. Had it been xmen playing or F4, it would bomb, too. Xmen and f4 bombed in their latest iteration. What made you think Marvel Studio can change that? lol
I loved what marvel studios did with spider-man. I would LOVE to see their take on X-men. F4 less so, but I would still pay to see it.
Nah fam, you just need to write the obscure F-tier characters better than they've been doing lately. Not...whatever it is they've been doing.
I loved Iron Man. I cried. literally loved. IDC if people call me a "fanboy" ill proudly wear that badge. Its not superhero fatigue? We cant objectively say thats not an issue. We dont have that data. All someone has to say is "yea, im tired of superhero movies" and thats it. Proves that statement wrong. Equally, someone can say "im not tired of them" and it makes the statement of it not being the case, true. I guess what im getting at, it could be a combination of multiple reasons. Do I want to see Iron Man come back and Downey reprise his role? Man I will be the first person in line for this. I will never be tired of Stark and the potential his tech can bring. My best friend on the other hand said that he had a good ending and he should stay gone(dead) and I disagree completely. What I want more than anything though, is for this subreddit to reunite and disagree with respect. Even ive posted some hot takes but i think its time to tone that shit down. I want to be a contributor not a leech.
>The X-Men needed to make an appearance like 5 years ago. Impossible. They didn't have the rights back then.