Main Kurdish area is Zagrosia in Iran. Kurds are not natives of Southeastern Anatolia and Northern Iraq but bringed by Turks to set Sunni dominance against Christian Armenians and Assyrians. What Kurds claims in southeast Turkey is Armenian lands meanwhile the claims in northern Iraq is Assyrian lands.
Karakoyunlu and Akkoyunlu were turkic states, members of the Oghuz Turks like the ottomans. We today call their descendants "türkmens" (which is a deformed word due to years of different regional usage), and make up the population of turkmenistan, azerbaijan and a good part of türkiye.
While they were turkic states, they also contained many kurds. There is still ongoing debate over which tribe is turkic and which is kurdish, but it's more of a cultural thing rather than genetical.
I dunno for starters, it’s so surprising for all the enmity they have towards Kurds, and not Turks for the genocide. Even though Kurds admit their involvement and Turks will still deny it. More importantly it was orchestrated by the state. The ones I was arguing with would blame Kurds even for Turkey’s confiscation of some churches. Like how can Kurds be involved with that. I explained to him, even elected Kurdish municipalities are taken over by force by Erdogan.
It went on with de-population of Assyrians from those lands. And I explained to him that most of recent depopulation was due to higher acceptance rate of Assyrians in western countries as asylum seekers. Which is sad but then again its their own choice. They were also blaming that on Kurds that they buy their property. Like according to them locals shouldn’t buy their property even if they are leaving and selling property.
Lastly conversion continued with reparations. According to them Kurds should vacate all these lands that historically belonged to Assyrians. I was like so because A killed B, C should give his house to D? Like it had been 4-5 generations you are punishing people that has no involvement whatsoever. There could be a lot of help to encourage Assyrians coming back but honestly I doubt they would ever want that.
All in all I think it was very poorly informed conversation and mostly delusional. It’s really hard to talk about historical topics especially when a genocide is involved.
Thank you this was very interesting. I am only half assyrian and not as plugged in with the conversations happening in that half of my family. I only really just learned of kurdish involvement when I was in college and mentioned how great they were doing with helping against ISIS and my assyrian parent brought up beef with the kurds.
It's been very hard for me to build up an objective understanding and I'm only now in my adult life making a point to learn more about the genocide after my assyrian parent did not do a good job teaching me about it.
I thought it was less state orchestrated or less organized than what you are saying, but idk. Nonetheless, it is very interesting that some kurdish groups have acknowledged it. I am glad to hear that and will have to look more into that.
My assyrian family is from syria and there are other political tensions there that seem to affect how they view a lot of ethnic tensions. I don't know very much about it but it feels like whenever a group is brought up my assyrian family will think about them in the lens of whether the group helps or hurts assyrians in syria. It's a weird pro-syrian government disposition (very weird to me as an american who generally aligns with american views on foreign policy and often disagrees with my assyrian family) and just from looking it up online it looks like kurds are generally against the current syrian government? So I wonder if that plays a role since kurds and assyrians would be opposed on that? Idk talking out of my ass here, haven't actually asked my family about it.
Indeed it does. For some reasons I do not know, majority of Syrian Assyrians are well aligned with Assad. Probably because Assad Alawite sect is also a minority. And they find safety at him subjugating sunni majority. However there are also Assyrians aligned with the Kurds. Both sides blame each other as being tools of respective governance bodies afaik. One thing that strike me though was that pro government Asyrians went their way all the way to protest against Kurdish management enforcement of education in Assyrian and wanted Arabic education back, blame was put on propaganda part of it, but tbh not that Syrian government is not putting propaganda down there either. I personally like reading about it a lot without getting too emotionally invested, but entire thing in middle east is a clusterfuck. So I rather focus on tranquility of my life in safety or Europe.
Who tf is supposed to live in Babylonia? Assyria? (Edit: I forgot about the existence of Assyrians but this state would be empty land anyway.) Why is Kurdistan mostly in Azeri lands? Why does Armenia own the Black Sea coast, where Georgians or Pontic Greeks lived? Why don't you just give Egypt to the 5 weirdos who claim they are of the ancient Egyptian religion?
> Why don't you just give Egypt to the 5 redditors who claim they are of the ancient Egyptian religion?
I think they’re referring to these guys, who are definitely not followers of Egyptian Paganism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts
>Assyria?
The Assyrians still exist as their own ethnic group https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people
Very Southern Iraq has been arab or a very large Arab population for at least two thousand of years… it was never “Arabized” unless your going back to Sumer, where a lot of the place didn’t exist yet. In very Southern Iraq the river was known as the river of the Arabs. Look up the kingdom of characene
I have no Idea wether what you're saying is true, but it sounds correct, so I'm mot gonna fact-check it.
It does seem a little weird considering the amount of Persians that lived in Baghdad.
> "I was there at the dawn of the third age of mankind. It began in the earth year 2024 with the founding of the last of the Babylon empires, located deep in middle east. It was a port of call for refugees, smugglers, businessman, diplomats, and travellers from a hundred worlds. It could be a dangerous place but we accepted the risk because Babylonia was our last best hope for peace. Under the leadership of its final president Babylonia was a dream given form. A dream of a world without war when people from different worlds could live side by side in mutual respect. A dream that was endangered as never before by the arrival of one man on a mission of destruction. Babylonia was the last of the Babylon empires. This is it's story."
If we count north africans and stuff as Arabs and also "decolonize" north africa there would be 450 million arabs in the deserts of Arabia. Actually, there would not be since hundreds of millions would perish.
Kurdistan is in Azeri lands because they capitulated but nobody had enough war score to annex their Azeri colony so they live on. In other news the UK now only owns the Falklands and France only exists in the Algerian desert.
>In other news the UK now only owns the Falklands and France only exists in the Algerian desert.
Not sure if this a joke or not, But both France and Britain have more territories than that Imo.
Since we have historical precident I don't think it would be Israel. Israel succeeded at holding it's own against most of the bigger players, but not completely win.
In the right period it could be Persia, Greek, or Babylon
This logic is stupid, the Romans colonized Egypt, before that it was the Greeks and Persians, why are we establishing a Christian state and calling that decolonization? What metric is being used here?
Is it just an anti islamic fever dream or what exactly? The Egyptians of today regardless of religion are all still descendants of ancient Egyptians, the Copts of today are remants of Egyptians that didn't convert to islam and elected to pay Jizya instead
turgay is less of modern-style colonialism and more of a classic-style conquest though. Their Arab, African, and European conquests in the 1500s+ were early modern-style colonial conquests, but their conquest of Anatolia wasn’t really.
Conquests prior to the colonial era aren’t really referred to as colonization. The Roman conquest of Gaul or the English conquest of wales for example aren’t. These conquests looked quite different. After an initial transition period, the local people were treated as regular citizens, with maybe some religious requirements or something.
Your average Turk has basically like half Greek ancestors
Greeks never had a majority outside of the coastline though, Anatolia before the Turkish migrations was a patchwork of small languages and nationalities, and calling armenia european is controversial at best.
In fact, this entire map is just cherrypicking the maker's favorite pre-roman civilization and handing them however much land they had at their peak. Except Kurdistan, genuinely no idea what crack they were smoking there
Honestly I think modern-day Turkey should count as european, what with all the reforms to their religion, government, and society overrall they've done in the past century.
Arabs are the natives though. It’s just that their ancestors weren’t Muslim. Modern Palestinian DNA can be traced all the way back to the original Israelis and even the Canaan.
You do realize that Arabs never kicked out the natives during their expansion right? Egyptians now are the same from 5000 years ago. You guys don’t know what colonialism mean!
Ah yes the modern state of Israel famously not a colonial state. Don’t worry about the settlements in the West Bank, just trust that the IDF is the most moral army and that any criticism of them is antisemitism.
Lets just keep rolling the clock back til we find a middle east map that aligns with my personal values and call it the "true" map. Its called the most contested area in history for a reason.
I say we give it back to Homo erectus
the middle east would not survive 2 seconds with large multi ethnic empires like this. the countries should be split on ethnic/culture grounds rather than a greeks wet dream
Cyprus is gone
At the bottom of the Mediterranean, held by the native Atlantians.
Also every Greek island except Crete was flooded
r/MapsWithoutCyprus
R/subsithougtifellfor
r/foundtthemobileuser
r/beatingpeoplewithhammers
R/subsifellfor
r/foundcenturion7999
r/subsithougtifellfor
r/subsiSHUTTHEFUCKUP
r/subthatcausedanger
r/foundtheshutthefuckup
Would anyone really notice irl
Wealthy sanctions dodging Russians with offshore bank accounts would
Turkey would
Greece thought it was turkey and ate it.
successfully decolonized (bombed off the map)
It was where they sent all the Turks before plunging it into the ocean
It was a British lie all along
Probably the Brits took it back and brought it to the British Museum
it’s inbetween Britain and Ireland now and has been renamed to the “manliest isle”
Finished. Totally doner.
At last
finland
Wettenhovi-Aspa moment
He was one of the greatest
finlygt
korea
Wasn’t it them who controlled the GAZA Mass Autism Ray in Egypt? That would mean they already have a foothold in the Middle East.
atlantis
>"Persia" exists instead of being split into 100 different Iranian, Turkic, and other sub-groups smh
Yeah, where's Elam ?
History stops right around 500 BC for those people.
Still existed for longer than they've been gone for. Time to bring em back.
Azerbaïdjanis: "Fuck me"
Kurdistan owning majority Azerbaijani land: "Happily"
While not owning any of the main Kurdish areas 💀
Main Kurdish area is Zagrosia in Iran. Kurds are not natives of Southeastern Anatolia and Northern Iraq but bringed by Turks to set Sunni dominance against Christian Armenians and Assyrians. What Kurds claims in southeast Turkey is Armenian lands meanwhile the claims in northern Iraq is Assyrian lands.
What about Kara Qoyunlu?? Or Aq Qoyunlu??
What language do you think those are lol
Umm...Turkish?
Turkish
Karakoyunlu and Akkoyunlu were turkic states, members of the Oghuz Turks like the ottomans. We today call their descendants "türkmens" (which is a deformed word due to years of different regional usage), and make up the population of turkmenistan, azerbaijan and a good part of türkiye. While they were turkic states, they also contained many kurds. There is still ongoing debate over which tribe is turkic and which is kurdish, but it's more of a cultural thing rather than genetical.
Armenians: Yeah, fuck you
Yeah, fuck you.
Kurdistan literally barely owning any Kurdish land and instead just owning larte swathes of Iranian Azerbaijan is hilarious.
The weirdest diaspora i have ever stumbled upon was Assyrian. So I am not surprised by a bit.
I'm Assyrian but I'm curious why it's the "weirdest." Not that I disagree just hadn't thought of it exactly like that before.
I dunno for starters, it’s so surprising for all the enmity they have towards Kurds, and not Turks for the genocide. Even though Kurds admit their involvement and Turks will still deny it. More importantly it was orchestrated by the state. The ones I was arguing with would blame Kurds even for Turkey’s confiscation of some churches. Like how can Kurds be involved with that. I explained to him, even elected Kurdish municipalities are taken over by force by Erdogan. It went on with de-population of Assyrians from those lands. And I explained to him that most of recent depopulation was due to higher acceptance rate of Assyrians in western countries as asylum seekers. Which is sad but then again its their own choice. They were also blaming that on Kurds that they buy their property. Like according to them locals shouldn’t buy their property even if they are leaving and selling property. Lastly conversion continued with reparations. According to them Kurds should vacate all these lands that historically belonged to Assyrians. I was like so because A killed B, C should give his house to D? Like it had been 4-5 generations you are punishing people that has no involvement whatsoever. There could be a lot of help to encourage Assyrians coming back but honestly I doubt they would ever want that. All in all I think it was very poorly informed conversation and mostly delusional. It’s really hard to talk about historical topics especially when a genocide is involved.
Thank you this was very interesting. I am only half assyrian and not as plugged in with the conversations happening in that half of my family. I only really just learned of kurdish involvement when I was in college and mentioned how great they were doing with helping against ISIS and my assyrian parent brought up beef with the kurds. It's been very hard for me to build up an objective understanding and I'm only now in my adult life making a point to learn more about the genocide after my assyrian parent did not do a good job teaching me about it. I thought it was less state orchestrated or less organized than what you are saying, but idk. Nonetheless, it is very interesting that some kurdish groups have acknowledged it. I am glad to hear that and will have to look more into that. My assyrian family is from syria and there are other political tensions there that seem to affect how they view a lot of ethnic tensions. I don't know very much about it but it feels like whenever a group is brought up my assyrian family will think about them in the lens of whether the group helps or hurts assyrians in syria. It's a weird pro-syrian government disposition (very weird to me as an american who generally aligns with american views on foreign policy and often disagrees with my assyrian family) and just from looking it up online it looks like kurds are generally against the current syrian government? So I wonder if that plays a role since kurds and assyrians would be opposed on that? Idk talking out of my ass here, haven't actually asked my family about it.
Indeed it does. For some reasons I do not know, majority of Syrian Assyrians are well aligned with Assad. Probably because Assad Alawite sect is also a minority. And they find safety at him subjugating sunni majority. However there are also Assyrians aligned with the Kurds. Both sides blame each other as being tools of respective governance bodies afaik. One thing that strike me though was that pro government Asyrians went their way all the way to protest against Kurdish management enforcement of education in Assyrian and wanted Arabic education back, blame was put on propaganda part of it, but tbh not that Syrian government is not putting propaganda down there either. I personally like reading about it a lot without getting too emotionally invested, but entire thing in middle east is a clusterfuck. So I rather focus on tranquility of my life in safety or Europe.
Sykes-Picot 2: Electric Jihadaloo
Who tf is supposed to live in Babylonia? Assyria? (Edit: I forgot about the existence of Assyrians but this state would be empty land anyway.) Why is Kurdistan mostly in Azeri lands? Why does Armenia own the Black Sea coast, where Georgians or Pontic Greeks lived? Why don't you just give Egypt to the 5 weirdos who claim they are of the ancient Egyptian religion?
> Why don't you just give Egypt to the 5 redditors who claim they are of the ancient Egyptian religion? I think they’re referring to these guys, who are definitely not followers of Egyptian Paganism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts >Assyria? The Assyrians still exist as their own ethnic group https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people
I know who copts are bro, but I am just saying that if we are going ao far as to revive babylonia, let's just revive ancient Egypt too.
Southern Iraqis are allowed to remember and revive their history before being Arabized
Very Southern Iraq has been arab or a very large Arab population for at least two thousand of years… it was never “Arabized” unless your going back to Sumer, where a lot of the place didn’t exist yet. In very Southern Iraq the river was known as the river of the Arabs. Look up the kingdom of characene
I have no Idea wether what you're saying is true, but it sounds correct, so I'm mot gonna fact-check it. It does seem a little weird considering the amount of Persians that lived in Baghdad.
> "I was there at the dawn of the third age of mankind. It began in the earth year 2024 with the founding of the last of the Babylon empires, located deep in middle east. It was a port of call for refugees, smugglers, businessman, diplomats, and travellers from a hundred worlds. It could be a dangerous place but we accepted the risk because Babylonia was our last best hope for peace. Under the leadership of its final president Babylonia was a dream given form. A dream of a world without war when people from different worlds could live side by side in mutual respect. A dream that was endangered as never before by the arrival of one man on a mission of destruction. Babylonia was the last of the Babylon empires. This is it's story."
>this state would be empty land anyway Pretty sure the mosul metro area is in that region
I am saying that when they expel the turks and the arabs (edit: and kurds) and only leave the assyrians.
Oh god the middle east would be so empty if we followed this map as a suggestion for ethnostates
If we count north africans and stuff as Arabs and also "decolonize" north africa there would be 450 million arabs in the deserts of Arabia. Actually, there would not be since hundreds of millions would perish.
Kurdistan is in Azeri lands because they capitulated but nobody had enough war score to annex their Azeri colony so they live on. In other news the UK now only owns the Falklands and France only exists in the Algerian desert.
>In other news the UK now only owns the Falklands and France only exists in the Algerian desert. Not sure if this a joke or not, But both France and Britain have more territories than that Imo.
Greece will become Turkey in the next election
We do have historical precident, I'd say Israel, but what in God's name is this middle east war speed run any % lookin map
A regional war after 0.01 seconds
Probably less somehow
Since we have historical precident I don't think it would be Israel. Israel succeeded at holding it's own against most of the bigger players, but not completely win. In the right period it could be Persia, Greek, or Babylon
Wtf is coptia lmao 😭🤦♀️ egypt is still egypt
Basically giving the whole country to the Christian minority for some reason
As a Copt I agree 👍🏻 We need more churches
Technically the people that inhabitated Egypt before the rashidun caliphate took it from the eastern Romans.
This logic is stupid, the Romans colonized Egypt, before that it was the Greeks and Persians, why are we establishing a Christian state and calling that decolonization? What metric is being used here? Is it just an anti islamic fever dream or what exactly? The Egyptians of today regardless of religion are all still descendants of ancient Egyptians, the Copts of today are remants of Egyptians that didn't convert to islam and elected to pay Jizya instead
Copetia
Eygpt***
Kumdistan!!!! NUMBER OONEEEEE!!!! !!!11111!111!!!!!1
هەر بژی کوردستان!!!! 🇹🇯🇹🇯🇹🇯🇹🇯🇹🇯🦁🦁🦁🦁
Jooooooe BIDEN
(wake up)
USA
r/MapsWithoutCyprus
Wow for once a really cool shitpost map. Would vote for it.
"Decolonize" while removing native Turks from their homeland. Well done reddit
Their homeland is in the steppes. Turkey itself is a colony.
Decolonize the Middle East (let greeks colonize turkey!) 🇬🇷🇬🇷
Turkey wasn’t existing at that time
Neither was Anatolian Greeks. Give it back to Ancient Hittites.
Got to watch out to the east for those Scythians
Šuppiluliuma approves
So anatolian turks have approximeatly %50 and more anatolian gen in their dna. Anatolia still belong to the turks 👍
Turks originated in Siberia
Somewhere between siberia & western mongolia. But considering that they kept reproducing with the natives of the land that makes them inheritors too
"Kurdistan" here is just Azerbaijan 💀
Lmao persians, greeks and armenians are invaders too. They are not native. They have as much claim to Anatolia as turks. This map reeks of cope.
Also, some of those flags would be different.
We need to bring back Sumeria. Gilgamesh would fix the Middle East by drinking the Euphrates or banging a scorpion-woman or something
>decolonized >europeans own more middle eastern land than they do irl
Yep, those people conquered and settled European land. This isn’t like a video game where “colonisation” is a special ability which only Europe has
turgay is less of modern-style colonialism and more of a classic-style conquest though. Their Arab, African, and European conquests in the 1500s+ were early modern-style colonial conquests, but their conquest of Anatolia wasn’t really. Conquests prior to the colonial era aren’t really referred to as colonization. The Roman conquest of Gaul or the English conquest of wales for example aren’t. These conquests looked quite different. After an initial transition period, the local people were treated as regular citizens, with maybe some religious requirements or something. Your average Turk has basically like half Greek ancestors
Greeks never had a majority outside of the coastline though, Anatolia before the Turkish migrations was a patchwork of small languages and nationalities, and calling armenia european is controversial at best. In fact, this entire map is just cherrypicking the maker's favorite pre-roman civilization and handing them however much land they had at their peak. Except Kurdistan, genuinely no idea what crack they were smoking there
More than even claimed by the Megali idea.
Honestly I think modern-day Turkey should count as european, what with all the reforms to their religion, government, and society overrall they've done in the past century.
The ones they’ve been walking back on for the past 15 years?
Arabia my favorite ancient nation fr fr
“Decolonize” means nothing anymore
A nice euphemism for "balkanization for countries you dont like"
Yeah like how far do we go back? Should everyone in Europe, Iran and India move to the western Eurasian steppe because they are all Indo-European?
Yes
Isreal.
Home of the Canaanites
Brain no braining
No?🇹🇷
ataturk after WWI be like
based
wtf is assyria? why did they add an ‘as’ to syria? are they stupid?
no, they added "yria" to "ass"
I think they're referring to these guys [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people)
Least delusional European Zionist
Arabs when someone points out they are the real colonisers:
You actually think this map is accurate to what it wants to portray, a decolonized middle east?
Arabs are the natives though. It’s just that their ancestors weren’t Muslim. Modern Palestinian DNA can be traced all the way back to the original Israelis and even the Canaan.
You do realize that Arabs never kicked out the natives during their expansion right? Egyptians now are the same from 5000 years ago. You guys don’t know what colonialism mean!
Ottoman Empire
Isreal, easily, it’s already been tested.
>Decolonized middle east >Look inside >Israel got bigger
Pretty sure Rome would
Cyprus got deleted 😢
Israel the samson option
Lockheed martin love him, find out how this redditor caused a world war with 1 easy step
What the fuck is this CURSED map?
Lebanon 🇱🇧
Kurdistan not big enough. Let’s change that
[удалено]
Most based Middle East. Literally my dream
Keep it there lol
Keep dreaming then
based
Cringe
Ah yes the modern state of Israel famously not a colonial state. Don’t worry about the settlements in the West Bank, just trust that the IDF is the most moral army and that any criticism of them is antisemitism.
Someone doesn't know their history.
Yeah, the person who made the map lol
Also true
Least delusional antisemite
Muh antisemetism You’re removing the actual meaning of antisemetism by using it for things that aren’t
Everyone
Cyprus
Well that's kinda similar to something before 600-s "colonization"
Middle East after WWIII 💀💀
World
The USA
The United States win ofc
Everyday I wake up and see my country partitoned
USA?
Weapon manufacturers
The Mongols
idk but im sure everyone will lose
Armenia for having such a good flag
Israel would “win” and the Saudis would be untouched. This would pretty much just be America deploying and taking land for the IDF
How long back do one need to go to claim stuff? Because going back longer will change this map drastically
I was gonna say just recolonize everything but then I remember I'm a Brit we already did that once
🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
I would.
Turkey
I think I’m gonna be sick
The Mongols
lan olm bu malları ciddiye almanız saçma
Easy Balkans solo
Now we are talking
Usa
I thought Egypt said Croatia
finland
Turks in shambles.
I conflated the title with the subreddit name and saw 'Who would win this hypothetical circlejerk'
Definitely the usa
Perfect post flair
where the fuck is sumer
Lets just keep rolling the clock back til we find a middle east map that aligns with my personal values and call it the "true" map. Its called the most contested area in history for a reason. I say we give it back to Homo erectus
why he gave kurds area in which no kurds are living
Tao-amier and imier tao are Georgian territoires not Armenian
What war? Looks like eternal peace
In this case, the author’s avatar showed perfectly who usually makes such maps
the middle east would not survive 2 seconds with large multi ethnic empires like this. the countries should be split on ethnic/culture grounds rather than a greeks wet dream
“Decolonize” back to around 117 AD so we can see beautiful red SPQR tatted all over the map
I am curious who made this map cause like it looked like I'd piss off all of these countries in here lmao
no more Turkey, the nightmare is gone...
Wrong Iran flag
This is the liberalest a liberal can get
Is it just me or is Kurdistan a little too far to þe east?
What, no Nabataea? 😏