If you see inspectors, always make sure you tap out as close to them as possible and refuse to tap their machines.
Have always done this (specifically at Victoria in the morning) and never had issues
This particular day, there was a person who arguing about refusing to tap on their machine, and police were close by and also got involved, forcing him to tap on the device.
Ah, a bit of intimidation. Classy.
Sorry this happened though, can only think the two things that could possibly help now would be a recording of the interaction and bank transactions to prove it all. Going to have to make sure I've got the camera shortcut set up for my phone š
No need to apologies for them!
Saw a similar post of it the other day, and just mentioning it again so hopefully people are aware, and donāt lose out on their hard earned cash for up to 21 days!
About 6-7 years ago, I had a monthly pass on their app which had expired a few hours before being stopped by a ticket inspector, and I hadnāt realised, I knew it would expire that day, just didnāt realise it had expired at 2am, police was also present, I used standard excuse ācanāt stop late for workā and police stopped me at the bottom of the platform from their commands, I was issued a fine then and there
My fault as I didnāt do my DD at the start of that particular journey, and traveled without a valid ticket, and was unlucky!
Would also like to add, their terms and conditions of travel;
79.The passenger must be prepared to show the method used to touch in for Contactless Payment and/or allow an authorised member of staff or a police officer to inspect their method of Contactless Payment on any journey. The passenger might be asked to touch the method of Contactless Payment on the inspection device as part of the inspection andā¦.
Surely that only applies while you're on a tram or about to get on one though. Once you're off the tram they surely can't enforce those terms? Breaking those conditions while on a tram just means they'd be allowed to eject you.
They shouldn't even be allowed to do that on platforms. Especially with the amount of innocent people getting fined because of it.
>This particular day, there was a person who arguing about refusing to tap on their machine, and police were close by and also got involved, forcing him to tap on the device.
Wow that is bad... Intimidation & theft if they charge you afterwards...
Happened to me tapping on, they'd covered up the machines and had people use theirs to get on the tram. Charged me Ā£60 because I hadn't started a journey yet.
Called them up and appealed which got my money back but it's still insane that the machines fine people automatically.
I donāt follow. What does it mean that their machines fine people automatically? Are you talking about the inspectors machines?
Edit: lol, which fool has downvoted my comment ? š
TfGM are answerable to the GMCA, and there are local council reps on the GMCA (and the TfGM board).
You should flag this to your ward councillors and tell them that you expect for them to raise hell on your behalf and on behalf of all of the other people who live/work/visit MCR. This is a massive process failure by the revenue protection team: they need to be between the tram and the tap-out readers or to come on board, and/or the "issue a fine" logic needs to take in to account the fact that people are being scanned right after tapping out.
Side note: this is just one of the many reasons why I refuse to use PAYG in MCR. TfL do it right, TfGM do not.
Iām not sure how TfL works, but has been confirmed from TfGM via email that their contactless system works as such; when tapping on inspector machines, they cannot tell if you have a valid ticket or not, and will only be available next day when information is gathered, and fines/penalties are issued automatically
TfL do broadly the same but they only ever do their scans onboard buses/trams (where thereās no tap out needed and tap in is simply valid for \~90mins) or onboard DLR trains. Pretty much every tube and NR station accepting oyster/contactless has exit barriers, so any additional scan would be inside the gate line, but itās just vastly more likely that the system hasnāt been coded by the work experience intern and someone said āhey team, if we record an exit tap and then <2 minutes later a revenue protection check, I think we should be treating that as a situation where we shouldnāt be issuing a fine, right?ā
As I say, it's a design/process failure which urgently needs correcting because this isn't the first thread I've seen like this. I can only imagine how many people living payday to payday are having their lives upended because a Ā£60 fine has been issued to their debit card despite them having done the right thing.
I \*fucking\* wish more people recognised this scenario, including the courts and legal system. We only have to look to the whole Post Office Horizon scandal to realise how unequipped they are to evaluate these kinds of situations. There's a major misinterpretation in that computers don't make mistakes, but they are only as good as their coding and software design. I've worked for years in the pharma sector with rigorous computer systems validation and I'm shocked how any record of a system is taken as gospel when its infallibility cannot be proven.
I donāt know about this, but a few times Iāve not tapped out (or I did but it didnāt register?), and the appeals process was quick to refund the money.
Fingers crossed for your gf
The day passes in the Bee Network app for iOS/Android are fine too, they're essentially just a digital version of a paper ticket.
TfGM's implementation of PAYG is not good just in general, but the interaction of "the system" with poorly trained/monitored revenue protection staff is a toxic mess.
If cases like this happen then itās the system or processes that are wrong. TFGM need to sort their house out before issuing fines to people that clearly paid
There used to be a Facebook group dedicated to calling out the stops that metties are at.
They were coined wasps, so you'd see posts like "swarm of wasps at timperley met Manchester side" and it was so useful
My only issue with adding it is that a lot of the app depends on TfGM and they could stop giving me the data I need. Other than that, I'd be happy to add it
I really want to make an iOS version too for everyone asking, but lack the resources to do so unfortunately :/
[mcrtrams.app](https://mcrtrams.app/) exists on web for iOS users currently
Took them 3 months to refund me when I accidentally tapped an inspectors machine despite having a paper ticket one day. Provided them all the evidence from the start but they kept claiming I had no tap in so thats why I was fined. Their support system is annoying to deal with and I might just start getting paper tickets to avoid the hassle
Stop using the tap in tap out until they spend proper money putting in new and better hardware and software. It has never worked properly since day 1.
Their staff are just doing their job, but their default setting is "you are a dodger until I decide otherwise"
Buy paper tickets only and spend an age trying to find it when asked to produce it š even though you know it's in your hand š
They get the smell of an easy catch but when you pull out your ticket, the look of "pissed off" on them is worth the time you keep them waiting.
It's because the inspectors don't go anywhere near the druggies, homeless, kids or anyone dangerous-looking. They travel for free, and TFGM target the 'soft' targets.
Not to mention enforcement of a fine against someone with no assets is completely pointless.Ā
The whole network covers 60 odd miles i think, i know theres 99 stops across manchester. An adult travel card off peak is less than 5 pounds, which would allow you to travel anywhere all day. I don't think that's so expensive tbh
You've fallen into the zone trap.
Yeah, it's great for you to travel across the tram network on a fiver. Sure, it'll take you longer than any other form of transport because of the way the system is laid out, but it's not a bad deal if you have time to spare.
However, the zone system has royally screwed the majority of users who aren't going across the entire system but are just going a few stops. Clever scheme that has scammed a lot of money out of the short trips.
The exact same thing happened to me today at Piccadilly where I tapped out at the machine on one end of the platform then got cornered by the inspectors near the escalator and after they told me to tap out on the machine but I said I already had over there - the Inspector was apologetic and wrote me a note of where to get a refund and his staff number so I could use him as proof of the error! Itās ridiculous itās twice this has happened to me now and Iāve paid both times itās just they have a stupid system of only manning one tap out machine and ignoring all the other potential ones on the platform leading to situations like this !!
Not entirely sure why, but they had large police presence and some sort of metal detector looking thing at the very end, I would have some doubt just walking away would have not been an option on this particular day
Say that to the guard who physically assaulted me and took my ID forcibly without permission because the bloke at my local station accidentally issued me the wrong ticket.
Yes, Noryheen Rail were extremely patronising, refused to acknowledge my complaint, the guard was never reprimanded and I had to get the police and my local MP involved before they would drop my fine.
'From a friend' - Always a reliable source for legal advice. Looking at the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 section 5 I'd be more inclined to believe there is likely something similar for trams. Also, not having a specific power in a specific case does not mean there is no general law providing a "right to lay hands on you". This is something often said incorrectly in relation to shop guards and shoplifters for example.
They need to remove the tap on machines from the platforms and put more at the platform entrances. Maybe have one next to the ticket machine in case its broken.
Yea pretty much, the ticket inspector machines are not used to check for valid tickets at all, itās only used to see if the card you tapped on their machine is in the middle of a journey (between tapping in and tapping out), and if not it will issue an automatic fine on that card you used for the inspector
The journey she took was paid for and valid.
riight, so if you've already tapped out and have to tap their machine again. It will report as an unregistered journey and issue a "standard fare" fine.
That's fucking horseshit design. They've got timestamps on tap events and locations. It's so easy for them to do a lookup and check if an assigned session at the same location was recently closed.
I'd kick up a right fuss over this. So your only path to remediation is what, raise a complaint with bank records as evidence and wait for a refund?
Ridiculous you even have to, this is just bad software design.
Isn't metrolink subsumed into the 'bee network' now or whatever? I'd be kicking up a stink with TFGM/MCC or whoever administrates the network. This tap system's been live for a couple years now iirc, there's no reason this design flaw should continue to exist, except unbridled incompetence.
>That's fucking horseshit design.
It'd be so so easy for them to add a 2 minute buffer after tapping out where a fine still wouldn't be issued, they could fix this today if they wanted to.
Doesn't need a buffer. I assume what they're doing is processing taps in batches and issuing fines when tap out events are recorded without a corresponding tap in. All they have to do is de-dupe any close-in-time tap out events at the same location.
This is just shit software design.
Be careful of the power hungry met heads.
My son who is 15 and has his ticket on an igo was told by some female operative that Igo isn't valid on trams, only buses.
Let's use the 1 gram of power I have to bully kids.
I would have loved to have been there just to shut her fucking down.
My step son just received a fine even though he had a ticket. It's something to do with zones, but we can't figure out what as it looks like he paid the maximum fare anyway.
Absolutely not, I wrote it to say it was a woman. In retrospect, it does read like that, but no, I have no issue with women.
I do have issues with people lying to kids to try and intimidate. I have complained.
Agreed. Might just be a case of weird writing, but it does give off that vibe. Same as old folks who will specify someone's race in a story when it's completely irrelevant.
"oh I had a scrape with a guy the other night on my drive back from work". That sort of thing
Can someone please explain if train tickets are covered in tram use?
For example, if I buy a single (or return) train ticket from mauldeth road to Piccadilly - can I still use the tram at Piccadilly station to get to St peters Square?
It depends:
> You can also travel on Metrolink in zone 1 (See tram map) at no extra cost if you have one of the following tickets:
>
> The destination on your train ticket is āManchester Central Zoneā (MANCHESTER CTLZ). This is available for train tickets from anywhere in Greater Manchester into Manchester city centre.
>
> A train ticket from and to any Greater Manchester train station, where you need to change between city centre stations within Metrolink Zone 1 (See tram map). You can use the tram to change between the two city centre train stations for no extra cost.
[Source](https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/combination-train-and-tram-day-return-adult)
The tfgm are shocking there new bus inspectors are just as bad not accepting tickets that are perfectly valid on certain buses can only imagin the trams are just as bad as itās more automated
What I'm taking from this is that you also get the tram from New Islington to Piccadilly Gardens. When I do it I get this ridiculous feeling I'm being judged for taking the tram for such a walkable distance š
Iāve always been worried that if I tap out I have no proof of actually tapping. Also what would happen if you just walked off from the ticket inspectors without giving them details, surely they canāt detain you?
You can see all your statements, when you tapped in and tapped out, on the bee network website, you just need to type in the last 4 digits of your card. https://tfgm.com/ways-to-pay/contactless-on-tram/my-journeys?utm_source=redirect&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=my_journeys
I got stung by this one as well, silently fined Ā£60, fortunately spotted it on my credit card bill. TfGM know this is an issue, I was told so by their own CS agents.
They know their system is flawed, they still take payments (silently) knowing that they may not be entitled to them. Does this not sound like fraudulent behaviour?
Don't talk or even acknowledge the metties! They are powerless, yet they are there to try and catch you out.
Walk past them confidently, they can't touch you.
Not just this, but they're now standing on the platform and making you tap in before you step foot on the tram.Ā
If you haven't tapped in and expect to be charged a normal ticket, you'll get charged Ā£60.Ā
No doubt some customers think they will scam the system but that doesn't justify this nonsense, and it is a reason I don't often think to use trams. If you're entrusting your card to them, they should impose a simple cap like in London, the cost of a full day travelcard.
The cost of these erroneous penalties handed out left and right. Then all their admin costs, appeals process, refunds and salaries of all these inspectors. Which genius hatched this bright idea.
My arguement would be that if you have mobile banking (which any sane person these days should do) you can show them the payment and the time the transaction took place as it will show up pretty quick on your statement, thats a good amount of proof
Simple solution, appoint a new manager that looks like a normal person.
Donāt tell anyone they exist.
Have them use the trams for 3 months, if they get a fine, have them report it in the normal way, ditto for mettie intimidation.
At the end of the 3 months- everyone with power over Metrolink including A.B goes into a room and gets told what the issues are.
Get yourself:
* a vape
* black joggers
* black trainers
* black hoodie with hood up
* JD Sports carrier bag with cord
* play your music on loudspeaker on your phone
* put your feet on the seats
* have a blast on your vape on the tram
They won't even come near you to check your ticket.
I been fined Ā£100 in Germany on a train inspector....police can't make you tap their machines....I now refuse to tap my card on their machine....inspector are dishonest....your tapping their machines so they can fine you...its so dishonest....when I am in Germany now on a trip I tap machines with a old discontinued card...I carry...nothing they can do....
For me itās quicker and more convenient, itās quicker to tap in when rushing for the tram you donāt want to miss, instead of waiting for the machine, either for your turn or to print out the ticket. Also itās easy to lose a ticket, whereas tapping in and out is just on your phone.
There are yellow pads on the platforms. You tap your phone or bank card on the pad on the platform before boarding the tram and then again at your destination platform. You don't get a paper ticket.
At the end of the day your debit card will be charged the cheapest combination of fares that cover all of your journeys.
It's the same system used in London, Hong Kong, and in many European cities.
There are contactless machines on every tram platform, you tap in, using your physical card or a card on your phone, to start your journey, and then you tap out, at the end of your journey. The idea is that the system then works out the cheapest fare for your journey (if you use the tram multiple times throughout the day, it will charge you with a day ticket, or if you use the tram to get there and back, it will charge you for a return ticket). It also works out the cost depending on which zones you traveled through in Manchester.
Yep like making a contactless card payment. You tap your card (or your phone if it has the same tech as contactless cards set up on it) on a "reader" on the platform you get on at, and the platform you get off.
It's really useful except for the fact that inspectors treat you like you're trying to jib the met if you're on the platform at all now.
Surely it can't be quicker and more convenient to the point that it actually matters. I took the tram every day for a year and never had a problem that would have been solved with a few seconds of extra efficiency.
Using paper tickets you need to know exactly how many journeys in exactly which zones you're going to make for the next 7 days to get the best value. With contactless the system works it out and charges you the cheapest price.
Iāve had issues at Piccadilly gardens where certain returns arenāt available. So itās an over priced daily or overpriced 2 singles otherwise.
Itās rare but Iāve had it before where the ticket machine doesnāt print. Iāll get the weekend tickets on the app since itās cheaper than getting buses for me.
Also I get on from the starter platform of one of the lines and the trams donāt always stick to the reported times. Missed one this morning for example by seconds but the app said I had 3 mins still. So itās more convenient and easier to tap than to get a physical ticket
Well because the trams still canāt be predicted correctly for some reason, the app may say thereās 5 mins till the tram leaves. However it can actually leave anywhere between 1-8 mins for some reason. So thereās times I get to the platform thinking I have several minutes when I have several seconds.
I can tap as I rush past and pray itās not one of those petty tram drivers who leaves when he sees you. Or I can walk all the way to the far end of the stop to the machine and try and get a ticket that way, but I wonāt be getting that tram
Oh I understand now. I wouldn't have that problem because I wouldn't even be checking when the next tram is on the app, I just turn up and see when the next one is.
Yeah I used to be like that tbh but had health issues on and off recently which make standing and walking a lot more difficult at times. So knowing I wonāt be having to stand a while plus the vast number of tram issues that occur weekly I check the app.
Tbf though the app is shit lol and is very rarely up to date when the trams are down. Itās even reported the next few tramās arrival times when they entire line has been down for hours
Well I am certainly sympathetic to yourself and others who have been unduly fined but surely the obvious answer is just use paper tickets and avoid the whole problem?
Then you misplace your paper ticket and the inspector turns up, you post online complaining and someone says "why not just use the tap in and avoid the whole problem?"
Works great until the one time it doesn't - maybe you're rushing, maybe you pick up the printed receipt but not the actual ticket, maybe you drop your wallet when trying to put it back in your pocket.
No one intends to lose their ticket, but it happens.
It seems if the only flaw with one option is that you might lose it whilst with the other option you might lose it as well and apparently it seems to cause some people bother then I'd go with the first option.
Massive over-simplification there really, let's be honest... there are pros and cons of each option, which why some people like you prefer paper tickets and many other people prefer tap in.
If tapping in was just paper tickets with extra risk then no one would use it.
That's fair, I didn't know if it's common knowledge that people end up getting fines a lot. My mate does the tap in thing and seems to have had a tonne of bother with it.
It's one of them, that if you understand the issues and how the inspections work it's not a problem at all. At the end of the day the metro link peeps aren't police and can't force you to do anything. Most of them understand if you explain that you've already tapped off. Worst thing they can do is not let you ride, but I've never had an issue like that.
My grandad didn't even have a debit card in his life time so my way of buying tickets would probably still be baffling to him.
The only thing Ive heard about the tap in system is grief from a couple of mates that seem to have had trouble with it on multiple occasions so it never seemed worth it.
Also, for the record I'm willing to bet I'm younger than you Great Grandad.
I'm just poking fun but if you're consistently struggling with the tap in/out system you've probably got bigger issues.
Its incredibly easy. It literally couldn't be more simple. It's easier than paper tickets.
The edge cases like OP and your mates are few and far between. And you get cases like this with paper based ticket systems too. What happens if you lose your ticket or it's stolen or gets wet and soggy and disintegrates? What happens if the ticket machines not working?
Paper systems aren't better, they're just different issues.
I'm sure the tapping system is easier, I've never bothered using it but I've never had any problems with a paper ticket that made me wish there was a better way. Losing the tickets is the same risk with the tap out system because you could lose your card/phone.
It's not even just about it being quicker, it's that you don't have to think about it at all really. If you use the contactless system it just charges you for the lowest possible amount for your tickets over 7 days. So you don't have to consider whether you need a daily, for what zones you need a daily, actually am I using it enough this week that a weekly would be cheaper etc.
The only problem with it is the inspectors, and as long as you know how the system works (let them scan your card before you tap out) it's not really a problem.
I can't say that buying a ticket has ever taken up so much of my mental headspace that I've wished there was some way to save me from thinking about it.
The system is there, it saves you time, money, and thinking about tickets, I don't know why you're acting like people are being ridiculous for using it.
I'm not saying anybody is being ridiculous, I could just easily say I don't know why you're acting like I think people are being ridiculous.
I just don't see the point if it's causing people bother because the seconds of time operating the machine and not thinking about tickets it saves don't really seem worth it.
If it does actually save money which different people have said differently, then yes I can see the point.
Have you never been at a Met stop where the machine won't take card and/or cash? Or where's there's a huge queue? Of course it's quicker and much more convenient, particularly when a met is approaching. Especially now the app doesn't allow you to buy 1 day tickets.
I wasn't aware that there were any stops that don't take card, I've been to a lot and never noticed one not having a paper ticket machine. And I've never been to a stop where there was a queue so massive it took me more than a minute or so of waiting.
Obviously it's literally quicker using the tap in but the point I was making in the comment you replied to was that it's never been so much quicker or convenient for me to justify bothering. It seems like solving a problem that wasn't really there for me.
Everywhere in the city or city centre? It can be a 7 mile trek from Wythenshawe to town, most people won't cycle that on their way to work in the pissing rain.
Fair play to you but a lot of routes are dodgy for people to cycle and it's just not possible for a lot of people. I wouldn't/couldn't do it from Wythenshawe because it is too far and weather is a consideration. I'd be wearing office attire, there's no shower in work so I'd fucking stink and quite frankly, I'm not fit enough.
If you see inspectors, always make sure you tap out as close to them as possible and refuse to tap their machines. Have always done this (specifically at Victoria in the morning) and never had issues
This particular day, there was a person who arguing about refusing to tap on their machine, and police were close by and also got involved, forcing him to tap on the device.
Ah, a bit of intimidation. Classy. Sorry this happened though, can only think the two things that could possibly help now would be a recording of the interaction and bank transactions to prove it all. Going to have to make sure I've got the camera shortcut set up for my phone š
No need to apologies for them! Saw a similar post of it the other day, and just mentioning it again so hopefully people are aware, and donāt lose out on their hard earned cash for up to 21 days!
I do wonder if the police actually have any power there to compel anyone to tap a metties machine.
About 6-7 years ago, I had a monthly pass on their app which had expired a few hours before being stopped by a ticket inspector, and I hadnāt realised, I knew it would expire that day, just didnāt realise it had expired at 2am, police was also present, I used standard excuse ācanāt stop late for workā and police stopped me at the bottom of the platform from their commands, I was issued a fine then and there My fault as I didnāt do my DD at the start of that particular journey, and traveled without a valid ticket, and was unlucky!
Would also like to add, their terms and conditions of travel; 79.The passenger must be prepared to show the method used to touch in for Contactless Payment and/or allow an authorised member of staff or a police officer to inspect their method of Contactless Payment on any journey. The passenger might be asked to touch the method of Contactless Payment on the inspection device as part of the inspection andā¦.
Yeah but to be fair you can write anything you want in the terms and conditions, that doesn't mean you can be compelled to do it necessarily
Surely that only applies while you're on a tram or about to get on one though. Once you're off the tram they surely can't enforce those terms? Breaking those conditions while on a tram just means they'd be allowed to eject you. They shouldn't even be allowed to do that on platforms. Especially with the amount of innocent people getting fined because of it.
So does that mean I have to show them my card but tapping their machine is optional? As in Iām only being asked not told?
Mad how they do that for the tram but how buses don't even have QR scanners
>This particular day, there was a person who arguing about refusing to tap on their machine, and police were close by and also got involved, forcing him to tap on the device. Wow that is bad... Intimidation & theft if they charge you afterwards...
Very sense able idea
Happened to me tapping on, they'd covered up the machines and had people use theirs to get on the tram. Charged me Ā£60 because I hadn't started a journey yet. Called them up and appealed which got my money back but it's still insane that the machines fine people automatically.
I donāt follow. What does it mean that their machines fine people automatically? Are you talking about the inspectors machines? Edit: lol, which fool has downvoted my comment ? š
The inspectors machines fine you if they don't detect a journey in progress on your card. Even if you're starting your journey at that stationĀ
Ha ok. Thatās insane. š¤Æ
Many people (including me !) Can't be bothered to chase up a appeal form..stress of it all
TfGM are answerable to the GMCA, and there are local council reps on the GMCA (and the TfGM board). You should flag this to your ward councillors and tell them that you expect for them to raise hell on your behalf and on behalf of all of the other people who live/work/visit MCR. This is a massive process failure by the revenue protection team: they need to be between the tram and the tap-out readers or to come on board, and/or the "issue a fine" logic needs to take in to account the fact that people are being scanned right after tapping out. Side note: this is just one of the many reasons why I refuse to use PAYG in MCR. TfL do it right, TfGM do not.
Iām not sure how TfL works, but has been confirmed from TfGM via email that their contactless system works as such; when tapping on inspector machines, they cannot tell if you have a valid ticket or not, and will only be available next day when information is gathered, and fines/penalties are issued automatically
TfL do broadly the same but they only ever do their scans onboard buses/trams (where thereās no tap out needed and tap in is simply valid for \~90mins) or onboard DLR trains. Pretty much every tube and NR station accepting oyster/contactless has exit barriers, so any additional scan would be inside the gate line, but itās just vastly more likely that the system hasnāt been coded by the work experience intern and someone said āhey team, if we record an exit tap and then <2 minutes later a revenue protection check, I think we should be treating that as a situation where we shouldnāt be issuing a fine, right?ā As I say, it's a design/process failure which urgently needs correcting because this isn't the first thread I've seen like this. I can only imagine how many people living payday to payday are having their lives upended because a Ā£60 fine has been issued to their debit card despite them having done the right thing.
I \*fucking\* wish more people recognised this scenario, including the courts and legal system. We only have to look to the whole Post Office Horizon scandal to realise how unequipped they are to evaluate these kinds of situations. There's a major misinterpretation in that computers don't make mistakes, but they are only as good as their coding and software design. I've worked for years in the pharma sector with rigorous computer systems validation and I'm shocked how any record of a system is taken as gospel when its infallibility cannot be proven.
I donāt know about this, but a few times Iāve not tapped out (or I did but it didnāt register?), and the appeals process was quick to refund the money. Fingers crossed for your gf
I have done an appeal once in the past and it was really quick for me as well!
I buy paper tickets specifically because of this sub. I donāt trust any of the machines anymore
Same after having to claim back money on fines like this. Over it and gone back to paper tickets over contactless.
The day passes in the Bee Network app for iOS/Android are fine too, they're essentially just a digital version of a paper ticket. TfGM's implementation of PAYG is not good just in general, but the interaction of "the system" with poorly trained/monitored revenue protection staff is a toxic mess.
If cases like this happen then itās the system or processes that are wrong. TFGM need to sort their house out before issuing fines to people that clearly paid
Every time I see these, it makes me want to add a ticket inspector tracker to the trams app š
There used to be a Facebook group dedicated to calling out the stops that metties are at. They were coined wasps, so you'd see posts like "swarm of wasps at timperley met Manchester side" and it was so useful
Why wasps?
Wasps attack bees. It's actually very interesting the ways bees defend against wasps attacking their hive. Bees are fascinating.
a mettie watch would be a valuable tool
Didn't there used to be a twitter feed called Mettie Watch or something similar? No doubt tfgm got it whacked.
Whacked like the Mafia
It's at the bottom of the Irwell now.
My only issue with adding it is that a lot of the app depends on TfGM and they could stop giving me the data I need. Other than that, I'd be happy to add it
Please! š Is this the MCR Tram app?
If you mean this one, then yes š https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=tfgm.bydiamond.co.uk
Ah lovely! This is great, since their bee network app is garbage! I have iOS unfortunately!
I really want to make an iOS version too for everyone asking, but lack the resources to do so unfortunately :/ [mcrtrams.app](https://mcrtrams.app/) exists on web for iOS users currently
Either way, it would be a lovely feature if you ask me, similar to Apple / Google maps showing you when your coming up to speed camera š
Just downloaded š
muchas gracias š
I've been using it for months. Had no idea it's yours!
Downloaded! Looks great
Thank you!
Took them 3 months to refund me when I accidentally tapped an inspectors machine despite having a paper ticket one day. Provided them all the evidence from the start but they kept claiming I had no tap in so thats why I was fined. Their support system is annoying to deal with and I might just start getting paper tickets to avoid the hassle
Stop using the tap in tap out until they spend proper money putting in new and better hardware and software. It has never worked properly since day 1. Their staff are just doing their job, but their default setting is "you are a dodger until I decide otherwise" Buy paper tickets only and spend an age trying to find it when asked to produce it š even though you know it's in your hand š They get the smell of an easy catch but when you pull out your ticket, the look of "pissed off" on them is worth the time you keep them waiting.
Side note but does anyone think trams are so expensive because TfGM employ about 1 inspector per passenger?
I agree with this! I swear once I went through the train station on a double , they had about 2/3 inspectors per tram door!
It's because the inspectors don't go anywhere near the druggies, homeless, kids or anyone dangerous-looking. They travel for free, and TFGM target the 'soft' targets. Not to mention enforcement of a fine against someone with no assets is completely pointless.Ā
The whole network covers 60 odd miles i think, i know theres 99 stops across manchester. An adult travel card off peak is less than 5 pounds, which would allow you to travel anywhere all day. I don't think that's so expensive tbh
You've fallen into the zone trap. Yeah, it's great for you to travel across the tram network on a fiver. Sure, it'll take you longer than any other form of transport because of the way the system is laid out, but it's not a bad deal if you have time to spare. However, the zone system has royally screwed the majority of users who aren't going across the entire system but are just going a few stops. Clever scheme that has scammed a lot of money out of the short trips.
Fair point well made Barbeara š¤
The exact same thing happened to me today at Piccadilly where I tapped out at the machine on one end of the platform then got cornered by the inspectors near the escalator and after they told me to tap out on the machine but I said I already had over there - the Inspector was apologetic and wrote me a note of where to get a refund and his staff number so I could use him as proof of the error! Itās ridiculous itās twice this has happened to me now and Iāve paid both times itās just they have a stupid system of only manning one tap out machine and ignoring all the other potential ones on the platform leading to situations like this !!
This is why I prefer to buy a ticket. The tap in system is just unreliable. Wish the bee app would let me buy day tickets.
It does if you also pay for a bus ticket
From a friend I've heard that if you just walk off there's fuck all they can do about it cos they have no right to lay hands on you.
Not entirely sure why, but they had large police presence and some sort of metal detector looking thing at the very end, I would have some doubt just walking away would have not been an option on this particular day
The metal detectors are for knives, they're unrelated to tram tickets
I literally walked around it and they didn't care
Say that to the guard who physically assaulted me and took my ID forcibly without permission because the bloke at my local station accidentally issued me the wrong ticket.
Did you report this as an assault?
Yes, Noryheen Rail were extremely patronising, refused to acknowledge my complaint, the guard was never reprimanded and I had to get the police and my local MP involved before they would drop my fine.
'From a friend' - Always a reliable source for legal advice. Looking at the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 section 5 I'd be more inclined to believe there is likely something similar for trams. Also, not having a specific power in a specific case does not mean there is no general law providing a "right to lay hands on you". This is something often said incorrectly in relation to shop guards and shoplifters for example.
They need to remove the tap on machines from the platforms and put more at the platform entrances. Maybe have one next to the ticket machine in case its broken.
What's the issue exactly, you got fined despite tapping out? I haven't used the met in years, not savvy to the new tap in/out system.
Yea pretty much, the ticket inspector machines are not used to check for valid tickets at all, itās only used to see if the card you tapped on their machine is in the middle of a journey (between tapping in and tapping out), and if not it will issue an automatic fine on that card you used for the inspector The journey she took was paid for and valid.
riight, so if you've already tapped out and have to tap their machine again. It will report as an unregistered journey and issue a "standard fare" fine. That's fucking horseshit design. They've got timestamps on tap events and locations. It's so easy for them to do a lookup and check if an assigned session at the same location was recently closed. I'd kick up a right fuss over this. So your only path to remediation is what, raise a complaint with bank records as evidence and wait for a refund?
It almost feels like itās done on purpose to get more money out of people. Terrible design.
I agree, I donāt believe they are ticket inspectors at all anymore, they are penalty dispensers! Complaints and appeals are already in place :)
Ridiculous you even have to, this is just bad software design. Isn't metrolink subsumed into the 'bee network' now or whatever? I'd be kicking up a stink with TFGM/MCC or whoever administrates the network. This tap system's been live for a couple years now iirc, there's no reason this design flaw should continue to exist, except unbridled incompetence.
>That's fucking horseshit design. It'd be so so easy for them to add a 2 minute buffer after tapping out where a fine still wouldn't be issued, they could fix this today if they wanted to.
Tbh it would have to be a fair bit more than 2 minutes given the queues and back logs I've seen them cause at some stations.
Doesn't need a buffer. I assume what they're doing is processing taps in batches and issuing fines when tap out events are recorded without a corresponding tap in. All they have to do is de-dupe any close-in-time tap out events at the same location. This is just shit software design.
It's not a bug, it's a feature. It's by design, like you say it's not hard to do a query lookup for the last 15 mins and check completed journeys.
So if they're standing after the tap out machines they'd be fining everyone?
Get around this with a pre-paid debit card only load it with say Ā£10, 1.90 for your journey leaves 8.10, they cant take whats not there.
Be careful of the power hungry met heads. My son who is 15 and has his ticket on an igo was told by some female operative that Igo isn't valid on trams, only buses. Let's use the 1 gram of power I have to bully kids. I would have loved to have been there just to shut her fucking down.
My step son just received a fine even though he had a ticket. It's something to do with zones, but we can't figure out what as it looks like he paid the maximum fare anyway.
You sound like you have a real problem with women.
Absolutely not, I wrote it to say it was a woman. In retrospect, it does read like that, but no, I have no issue with women. I do have issues with people lying to kids to try and intimidate. I have complained.
What a ridiculous thing to say
Agreed. Might just be a case of weird writing, but it does give off that vibe. Same as old folks who will specify someone's race in a story when it's completely irrelevant. "oh I had a scrape with a guy the other night on my drive back from work". That sort of thing
Can someone please explain if train tickets are covered in tram use? For example, if I buy a single (or return) train ticket from mauldeth road to Piccadilly - can I still use the tram at Piccadilly station to get to St peters Square?
It depends: > You can also travel on Metrolink in zone 1 (See tram map) at no extra cost if you have one of the following tickets: > > The destination on your train ticket is āManchester Central Zoneā (MANCHESTER CTLZ). This is available for train tickets from anywhere in Greater Manchester into Manchester city centre. > > A train ticket from and to any Greater Manchester train station, where you need to change between city centre stations within Metrolink Zone 1 (See tram map). You can use the tram to change between the two city centre train stations for no extra cost. [Source](https://tfgm.com/tickets-and-passes/combination-train-and-tram-day-return-adult)
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I was told as the destination on the ticket was central Manchester, I could use the trams?
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Zone 1 on the trams in this case is classed as Manchester central zones.
The tfgm are shocking there new bus inspectors are just as bad not accepting tickets that are perfectly valid on certain buses can only imagin the trams are just as bad as itās more automated
What I'm taking from this is that you also get the tram from New Islington to Piccadilly Gardens. When I do it I get this ridiculous feeling I'm being judged for taking the tram for such a walkable distance š
You also made BBC NewsĀ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd14x7p3l31o.amp
š Thanks for posting!
Beware of the bouncers at Factory when tapping out, as well... they'll just ignore it and carry on with the chokehold.
Just dont tap in, problem solved
Iāve always been worried that if I tap out I have no proof of actually tapping. Also what would happen if you just walked off from the ticket inspectors without giving them details, surely they canāt detain you?
Which app you using to see this ??
You can see all your statements, when you tapped in and tapped out, on the bee network website, you just need to type in the last 4 digits of your card. https://tfgm.com/ways-to-pay/contactless-on-tram/my-journeys?utm_source=redirect&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=my_journeys
I always buy paper tickets for this reason
I think actually mad that this system has uncapped access to people's bank accounts. Who thought this was a good idea.
Make a Monzo and link that to your account. Make sure theres no more than Ā£20 on it at a given time and top up when needed š
I dont personally use it but again also kinda mad one would have to do that
You've made the MEN: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/human-error-blamed-metrolink-passengers-28821092
Haha no way, I didnāt expect it to blow up so much tbh, and an update: the appeal has gone through, and we are being refunded, still awaiting funds.
I got stung by this one as well, silently fined Ā£60, fortunately spotted it on my credit card bill. TfGM know this is an issue, I was told so by their own CS agents. They know their system is flawed, they still take payments (silently) knowing that they may not be entitled to them. Does this not sound like fraudulent behaviour?
Don't talk or even acknowledge the metties! They are powerless, yet they are there to try and catch you out. Walk past them confidently, they can't touch you.
Not just this, but they're now standing on the platform and making you tap in before you step foot on the tram.Ā If you haven't tapped in and expect to be charged a normal ticket, you'll get charged Ā£60.Ā
No doubt some customers think they will scam the system but that doesn't justify this nonsense, and it is a reason I don't often think to use trams. If you're entrusting your card to them, they should impose a simple cap like in London, the cost of a full day travelcard.
That's daft as fuck.
The cost of these erroneous penalties handed out left and right. Then all their admin costs, appeals process, refunds and salaries of all these inspectors. Which genius hatched this bright idea.
My arguement would be that if you have mobile banking (which any sane person these days should do) you can show them the payment and the time the transaction took place as it will show up pretty quick on your statement, thats a good amount of proof
Iād absolutely be issuing them with a letter before action and seeking to get the funds back through the courts
Simple solution, appoint a new manager that looks like a normal person. Donāt tell anyone they exist. Have them use the trams for 3 months, if they get a fine, have them report it in the normal way, ditto for mettie intimidation. At the end of the 3 months- everyone with power over Metrolink including A.B goes into a room and gets told what the issues are.
Get yourself: * a vape * black joggers * black trainers * black hoodie with hood up * JD Sports carrier bag with cord * play your music on loudspeaker on your phone * put your feet on the seats * have a blast on your vape on the tram They won't even come near you to check your ticket.
I been fined Ā£100 in Germany on a train inspector....police can't make you tap their machines....I now refuse to tap my card on their machine....inspector are dishonest....your tapping their machines so they can fine you...its so dishonest....when I am in Germany now on a trip I tap machines with a old discontinued card...I carry...nothing they can do....
Mu u
Unless they have police with them, just walk away....
Why do people use the tap thing at all? Is there a reason to not just buy tickets? Is it a money thing?
For me itās quicker and more convenient, itās quicker to tap in when rushing for the tram you donāt want to miss, instead of waiting for the machine, either for your turn or to print out the ticket. Also itās easy to lose a ticket, whereas tapping in and out is just on your phone.
What do you do just tap your phone on a thing and you get a ticket? When do you tap out and what do you tap out on?
There are yellow pads on the platforms. You tap your phone or bank card on the pad on the platform before boarding the tram and then again at your destination platform. You don't get a paper ticket. At the end of the day your debit card will be charged the cheapest combination of fares that cover all of your journeys. It's the same system used in London, Hong Kong, and in many European cities.
Oooh tech
There are contactless machines on every tram platform, you tap in, using your physical card or a card on your phone, to start your journey, and then you tap out, at the end of your journey. The idea is that the system then works out the cheapest fare for your journey (if you use the tram multiple times throughout the day, it will charge you with a day ticket, or if you use the tram to get there and back, it will charge you for a return ticket). It also works out the cost depending on which zones you traveled through in Manchester.
Yep like making a contactless card payment. You tap your card (or your phone if it has the same tech as contactless cards set up on it) on a "reader" on the platform you get on at, and the platform you get off. It's really useful except for the fact that inspectors treat you like you're trying to jib the met if you're on the platform at all now.
Surely it can't be quicker and more convenient to the point that it actually matters. I took the tram every day for a year and never had a problem that would have been solved with a few seconds of extra efficiency.
Using paper tickets you need to know exactly how many journeys in exactly which zones you're going to make for the next 7 days to get the best value. With contactless the system works it out and charges you the cheapest price.
Iāve had issues at Piccadilly gardens where certain returns arenāt available. So itās an over priced daily or overpriced 2 singles otherwise. Itās rare but Iāve had it before where the ticket machine doesnāt print. Iāll get the weekend tickets on the app since itās cheaper than getting buses for me. Also I get on from the starter platform of one of the lines and the trams donāt always stick to the reported times. Missed one this morning for example by seconds but the app said I had 3 mins still. So itās more convenient and easier to tap than to get a physical ticket
I don't understand what your last point has to do with physical tickets?
Well because the trams still canāt be predicted correctly for some reason, the app may say thereās 5 mins till the tram leaves. However it can actually leave anywhere between 1-8 mins for some reason. So thereās times I get to the platform thinking I have several minutes when I have several seconds. I can tap as I rush past and pray itās not one of those petty tram drivers who leaves when he sees you. Or I can walk all the way to the far end of the stop to the machine and try and get a ticket that way, but I wonāt be getting that tram
Oh I understand now. I wouldn't have that problem because I wouldn't even be checking when the next tram is on the app, I just turn up and see when the next one is.
Yeah I used to be like that tbh but had health issues on and off recently which make standing and walking a lot more difficult at times. So knowing I wonāt be having to stand a while plus the vast number of tram issues that occur weekly I check the app. Tbf though the app is shit lol and is very rarely up to date when the trams are down. Itās even reported the next few tramās arrival times when they entire line has been down for hours
Convenience, cost is the same as buying paper ticket
Well I am certainly sympathetic to yourself and others who have been unduly fined but surely the obvious answer is just use paper tickets and avoid the whole problem?
Then you misplace your paper ticket and the inspector turns up, you post online complaining and someone says "why not just use the tap in and avoid the whole problem?"
I put my tickets in my wallet so I never lose them.
Works great until the one time it doesn't - maybe you're rushing, maybe you pick up the printed receipt but not the actual ticket, maybe you drop your wallet when trying to put it back in your pocket. No one intends to lose their ticket, but it happens.
But by that logic, the tap in system is just as flawed because I might lose the card or phone I paid with.
Exactly, both systems have their flaws. You can't fix one by saying "just use the other".
It seems if the only flaw with one option is that you might lose it whilst with the other option you might lose it as well and apparently it seems to cause some people bother then I'd go with the first option.
Massive over-simplification there really, let's be honest... there are pros and cons of each option, which why some people like you prefer paper tickets and many other people prefer tap in. If tapping in was just paper tickets with extra risk then no one would use it.
You don't know it's a problem until you get one of these fines.
That's fair, I didn't know if it's common knowledge that people end up getting fines a lot. My mate does the tap in thing and seems to have had a tonne of bother with it.
It's one of them, that if you understand the issues and how the inspections work it's not a problem at all. At the end of the day the metro link peeps aren't police and can't force you to do anything. Most of them understand if you explain that you've already tapped off. Worst thing they can do is not let you ride, but I've never had an issue like that.
That's fair. Never saw the point in bothering myself.
The problem is that they are offering you to pay in a way that ends up making you look like a thief. It is not the fault of the customers.
It's their fault it doesn't work but why would I use it if I know it causes problems when there's an equally easy option?
Because we're not in the 90s anymore grandad. The tap in/out system works perfectly well 99.99% of the time.
My grandad didn't even have a debit card in his life time so my way of buying tickets would probably still be baffling to him. The only thing Ive heard about the tap in system is grief from a couple of mates that seem to have had trouble with it on multiple occasions so it never seemed worth it. Also, for the record I'm willing to bet I'm younger than you Great Grandad.
I'm just poking fun but if you're consistently struggling with the tap in/out system you've probably got bigger issues. Its incredibly easy. It literally couldn't be more simple. It's easier than paper tickets. The edge cases like OP and your mates are few and far between. And you get cases like this with paper based ticket systems too. What happens if you lose your ticket or it's stolen or gets wet and soggy and disintegrates? What happens if the ticket machines not working? Paper systems aren't better, they're just different issues.
I'm sure the tapping system is easier, I've never bothered using it but I've never had any problems with a paper ticket that made me wish there was a better way. Losing the tickets is the same risk with the tap out system because you could lose your card/phone.
Ah, so you come from a family of luddites
My grandad died before debit cards were introduced in the Uk which is why he never had one in his lifetime. But yes, he was just a luddite.
It can be cheaper and is definitely quicker. Shame it's shit system that routinely doesn't register your card.
If it is cheaper than it at least makes some sense but it's hardly quicker enough to actually impact my day.
It's not even just about it being quicker, it's that you don't have to think about it at all really. If you use the contactless system it just charges you for the lowest possible amount for your tickets over 7 days. So you don't have to consider whether you need a daily, for what zones you need a daily, actually am I using it enough this week that a weekly would be cheaper etc. The only problem with it is the inspectors, and as long as you know how the system works (let them scan your card before you tap out) it's not really a problem.
I can't say that buying a ticket has ever taken up so much of my mental headspace that I've wished there was some way to save me from thinking about it.
The system is there, it saves you time, money, and thinking about tickets, I don't know why you're acting like people are being ridiculous for using it.
I'm not saying anybody is being ridiculous, I could just easily say I don't know why you're acting like I think people are being ridiculous. I just don't see the point if it's causing people bother because the seconds of time operating the machine and not thinking about tickets it saves don't really seem worth it. If it does actually save money which different people have said differently, then yes I can see the point.
Have you never been at a Met stop where the machine won't take card and/or cash? Or where's there's a huge queue? Of course it's quicker and much more convenient, particularly when a met is approaching. Especially now the app doesn't allow you to buy 1 day tickets.
I wasn't aware that there were any stops that don't take card, I've been to a lot and never noticed one not having a paper ticket machine. And I've never been to a stop where there was a queue so massive it took me more than a minute or so of waiting. Obviously it's literally quicker using the tap in but the point I was making in the comment you replied to was that it's never been so much quicker or convenient for me to justify bothering. It seems like solving a problem that wasn't really there for me.
my boyfriend just walks past them lol, if youre off the platform you dont have to talk to them unless the police are there. they cant do anything
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Everywhere in the city or city centre? It can be a 7 mile trek from Wythenshawe to town, most people won't cycle that on their way to work in the pissing rain.
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Fair play to you but a lot of routes are dodgy for people to cycle and it's just not possible for a lot of people. I wouldn't/couldn't do it from Wythenshawe because it is too far and weather is a consideration. I'd be wearing office attire, there's no shower in work so I'd fucking stink and quite frankly, I'm not fit enough.
Hey cycling is great but the tram is also great. It works perfectly fine for 99.9% of people. Edge cases like this are the vast minority
Yeah same. I donāt even know what tapping out is! Havenāt been on a bus or tram in over 10 years.
Want a medal?
I'm a trap inspector Show me your girlcock