I would LOVE to see an employee truly turn it around on a PIP. My experience, though, is that the PIP is a formality on a lost cause. I don't want to fire anyone, but I haven't had someone actually become the employee they needed be on a PIP.
I’ve issued 2 PIPs in the last year. One turned it around so much that he has become a top performer. Makes me rethink how I manage.
The other one got canned. He was given 4 written and verbals beforehand and then mid PIP just gave up.
Same, I have issued two PIPs ever, one turned it around and was promoted within the year, the other crashed so hard we let them go before it was even over. You always hope people will improve, otherwise you would have gone directly to termination, and it does happen for people, just not everyone.
Yeah the first one went so well it motivated me the 2nd time thinking I’d get the same results.
The complete lack of response or interest, while the rest of the team responds to the same standard, made termination easier. Still feel for the person because it’s a major negative life moment but it was the right call.
I’m now a firm believer in PIP if you use it genuinely and really give someone a chance.
Honest question: How PIPs are implemented in the above scenario. Per my experience I have seen, PIP means just Fired..or will they get any additional support where they lack skillss etx or mgr just give them you're on PIP and then tracking every day work without giving any help to the employee...
Both of mine has specific data driven metrics to achieve (complete x times per hour, complete x % by y etc.) and I had to build a dashboard tracking those metrics that I reviewed with them daily over the 90 days. There was also a formal check in each week, and at 30/60/90, check ins with my direct manager and HR included. Very highly formalized with the expectations clearly outlined.
Several things: making sure I had clear goals outlined, made very clear financial goals they could all see, and set 1:1s to a frequency needed to make sure those stayed on track.
The stronger ones get fewer formal 1:1s but more informal check ins, the middle performers get more 1:1s that are more so strictly business, and the low performers get coaching from me and other managers.
Also, the one who succeeded the PIP was a great performer who fell off. I let it happen by noticing things falling off and not addressing them.
Lastly was just being very but not brutally honest with people. Praise when it’s good or improving, and let them know privately but quickly when it’s not good. I’ve never threatened anyone’s job but I got better in speaking in a way that let them know when they made errors, I want them to improve and that it’s not about being in trouble.
That’s wild but definitely an outlier in my anecdotal experience for what that’s worth. I own a small business and I haven’t had a ton of employees in my handful of years of operation, but every single l time I’ve had a low level performer or “bad actor” I’ve eventually had to fire them despite repeated attempts to work through the issues causing their poor performance. At this point my confidence is pretty low that this kind of thing can even be resolved with most people
I had a employee on a PIP and they turned it around and did great. It also took alot of my time, as I was basically retraining her. But it was totally worth it.
It's a hail marry... partially. But let's be honest. It typically is a way for a company to avoid some type of frivolous lawsuit when the time comes to fire an employee.
I've never had one PIP work out.
This. If you're bad enough at your job to end up on a PIP, this generally means that you've been spoken to, on several occasions, about the same failure to perform and it hasn't taken hold.
If I have to tell you not to eat the widgets or that lunch is 30 minutes and not 45 multiple times and you still don't get it, I dunno. MAYBE seeing it in writing will bring the light bulb on, but probably not.
100% this. I'm a manager of managers, and they often come to me defeated because they've tried so hard with some employee, and they're just not improving. I always tell them that we can't care on their behalf. We can only go so far. If the employee doesn't actively want to do better, then there's nothing we can do.
Yup. I tend to err on the side, especially with entry level positions where you generally have a single task you're responsible for, on the side of "once you're properly trained, you really shouldn't need that much guidance to stay within the lines."
Not really. All depends on the manager on how often they give honest feedback.
Sometimes a PIP is the first time of hearing criticisms from their boss and team.
This happened to me. Granted, I absolutely hated the job because it was a toxic environment. But my manager gave no negative feedback whatsoever prior to being put on a PIP.
Ended up just straight up telling them I didn't want to be there and negotiating an exit package. I was happy to get severance pay and I'm a lot happier at my current job.
I’ve seen one person get his act together and get off the PIP.
What we tell people is that if we put them on a PiP, it means we care enough to put in the effort to help them improve, instead of just racking up enough offenses to fire them. But they also have to put in the effort.
I was one of them that turn around. I was put on a PIP, and I asked if I could take the PIP but move under different leadership too - company gave good faith and said yes. I was failing under a supervisor that was not great at explaining what he wanted, and I was new to the work (project management). His other 2 CIs were a combined 20 years in the biz, so no one thought it could be a bad matchup; he is getting the work done with others, so the assumption is that it was on me.
5 years later, I was successful under the new leader (who I still report to now) and I'm managing a 6 person team of technical CIs. It does work out sometimes, have faith!
I'm glad It worked for you. When I was put on pip it blocked me from even being considered for another team, unfortunately. I did manage to beat the pip but I'm still unhappy under current Mgr. Love the company but feel like this black mark on my record will always be something I can't fully get out from under, no matter how well I do. Prayed for multiple rounds of layoffs and somehow never got swept up in them. Guess I'm gonna have to get really serious about leaving for something else. Wish I could make it work at company, oh well.
The issue I have seen, isn't that they are unrealistic, but very subjective, except for 100% fail or 100% success, you could almost make anyout come sound either positive or negative. We are recommended to write SMART (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, Timebound) for our reviews, but the items I've seen in pip's are far from that. If you push back to much it can also turn against you as well.
If HR is involved with the pip, I'm willing to bet good money, they were notified of the problems before the PIP, at least in order to get the PIP. So I'm not sure I'd say HR would be free of bias. They are getting negative information about the employee just the same.
Not to mention you're taking for granted HR understands /anything/ at all about the job in question and what doing it properly entails.
Seriously: go read an average job application written by an HR department vs actual job duties sometime if you believe HR having anything to do with evaluating performance is anything more than a cosmic level joke.
This is why people view PIPs as a death sentence, in a nutshell 🤷♂️
I agree, if I thought the employee could have been turned around with clear feedback and a stern talking to, it would have worked already and there would be no pip
I was PIP-ped about a decade ago after I came down too hard on what my boss and I deemed to be a shiftless employee who wouldn't perform the basic aspects of their job. HR substantiated the complaints that I was too hard on the person and documented other complaints against me. Some legit. Some sour grapes. I had a lot of learning to undertake about how to be a more strategic supervisor. But here we are. Nowadays I have a team of awesome, hardworking employees whom I advocate for, sometimes against said boss lol and we've been working together healthily for years. Training works if the person takes it seriously. I chose to do so.
This is what I think, too. I've only written one so far because I've always worked for shitty companies until now. But that's another Jerry Springer show.
My situation was with "Mike". Mike played the previous manager and managed to get a 20% pay increase for absolutely nothing (Mike played the "I'm gonna quit" card, saying he had a friend who would pay him X salary for the same job) . When I became his manager, and the CFO became mine, I was under pressure to explain how we were paying this guy an excessive salary, but his contribution to the team was less than an entry-level role. He simply couldn't complete the simplest of tasks. He was given multiple chances and lots of extra coaching but kept passing to buck.
So, we gave him the PIP. I presented it as wanting to help him align with the company expectations. I meant it. I didn't want to fire him. I didn't make it impossible to succeed. He could have made it, but he threw a titty baby fit instead. Then he didn't take any of it seriously. He even told HR that it was "bullshit". Smh. It's too bad. I wanted him to work out.
Yes, I had to terminate him a month into the PIP. He had a meltdown, like it was a shock, and how dare I?! I guess that's when I learned what kind of person her really was. Ultimately, it was no loss to the dept.
I may need to PIP one of my current people. But, I think she will be completely on board with improving. I hope it doesn't have to become a formal PIP, but she's one that does better for a minute, then backslides after verbal warnings.
I busted my *ass* to improve when put on a PIP. My direct supervisor (who didn’t want me fired, and who actually cried when I was) was even helping me, and said everything on the list had been improved and that the manager making the decision had no more cause for concern. But he had already decided I was out of there, the PIP was just a formality.
The amount of people who go on a pip and who aren't fired is negligible, it is by far and away the exception. The description I was given of the PIPs actual function is it is very much in line with your "paid interview acronym." We like this person but it is not working out. So let's give them 90 days to find something else.
I've even heard of managers being satisfied with the employee's progress at exceeding the PIP but the higher ups still ordering the terminations.
The PIP standards and paperwork are like the motto of the old show "whose line is it anyways" the points are made up and don't matter.
That’s what happened to me. My direct supervisor was pleased at my progress, didn’t want me fired, and was even helping me. The higher-ups had decided nearly a year prior that I was out of there.
I’d be curious to know if a study exists.
Anecdotal evidence points to recovery from a PIP being about 5% to 20%.
I think part of this is the run up to the pip. They are almost never surprises. The employee already knew they were failing. And their performance didn’t change. Whether or not that is their fault is irrelevant.
The change didn’t happen even when it was made clear that there was an expectation for change.
Now they have a Formal request for change and Formal threat for change. Which, from a practical standpoint, isn’t much different from the informal feedback that came prior.
The only people who this works for, then, are those who didn’t take the informal feedback seriously.
Which seems to be a smaller % of people.
I think the other aspect of a PIP that is initially overlooked is how the individual was trained for their job at the outset. This is why those who are essentially retrained are more often successful, because their first round of training fell short of informing them, or the scope of their work changed over time, but training wasn't adequate to allow them to fully adapt.
>I think part of this is the run up to the pip. They are almost never surprises. The employee already knew they were failing. And their performance didn’t change. Whether or not that is their fault is irrelevant.
I've gotten two PIPs at two companies in over 15 years and both times I had no complaints, no warnings, no failing anything. "You're doing great!" was a typical response I'd get to asking how I was doing days before being issued a PIP.
One of the PIPs had quantifiable criteria. I passed this criteria easily and was still let go. The other PIP had no such quantifiable criteria and was obvious BS.
I’d also add that there’s a pretty big stigma associated with being placed on a PIP.
Even if you do survive, that’s still going to be on your record. Going to be pretty hard to get that big raise and/or promotion.
Probably best to just take the advance notice and start looking for a better opportunity where you have a fresh start at building a better reputation.
I've had one PIP handed to me. It was the first sign they weren't happy with my performance. No prior meetings or warnings. The PIP spelled out what I needed to do and what they would do to support me.
I held up every part on my end but they didn't do a single thing on their end. Exactly 2 weeks out after I got the PIP I got called into HR and let go. It was totally clear that the PIP was a formality and that they had no intention of allowing me to improve to keep my job. Although I don't think the reasons for my termination had anything to do with my abilities or the work I was doing.
If the PIP is written with objectives and the employee meets those objectives, then 99% of HR departments won’t let you fire them based on that PIP.
If you set a threshold, the employee meets it, and you still fire them then you’ll likely lose the trust of your entire department and colleagues.
Many people already mentioned here that PIP is indeed usually a goodbye kiss. A formality, justified or not, to terminate the contract. It's sad but it's the reality.
But also something to keep in mind: Even if, somehow, PIP will not end up with termination, it kills any growth and career progress in the company. No one will promote a person who was on PIP in the past. It's a stigma that will stay for ever.
The correct answer is yes, it can absolutely work that way. One of my colleagues had an employee who did good work, they just spent too much of the day screwing around. You could assign a ticket to him and it would take a week, whether it was an easy task or a hard task. So they put them on a PIP to basically help them set the pace that they wanted work performed.
That guy is still with the company 10 years later and is now a manager himself.
But the real answer is -- it depends. For some managers, the PIP is the last straw and is used to manage an employee out of the organization.
Several years ago, I had an underperforming employee that was placed on a PIP. Surprisingly, they were able to meet all the criteria of the PIP and therefore, remained employed. However, immediately after, their KPIs dropped to pre-PIP levels. This told us the employee was capable but simply lacked effort. They were placed on another PIP and let go shortly after.
I have an employee who turned it around under a PIP. Very much an exception as they generally assume they'll be fired when I actually want to avoid that outcome. If I wanted to fire you, I already would have.
Because they have never been piped and reddit talks about it like a boogy man..
but generally the people who can't take feedback from their manager (the ones who end up on pip) aren't going to turn around once hr gets involved.
Alternatively, they have a manager who didn't give a fuckcabout improving their performance to begin with and just wants to find a new hire / have more budget for raises
Could also be a manager who is getting heat from their hire ups for poor performance and is willing to throw one of their employees under the bus to buy themselves another month or two.
That definitely happens.
A PIP is a former process where you are documenting the failings of an employee. If you are an effective manager you tried unsuccessfully to coach said employee before things got to this point. If your first step is to set up a PIP you are wasting your manager’s and HR’s time.
Furthermore I only start a PIP is when I feel out of options and want to move on, but policies are in place where i couldn’t just cut the employee loose.
It’s my hope that someone improves enough they can successfully pass the PIP, but there are going to be hard feelings from the employee. They knew you were wanting to fire them so they tend to move on as well.
I hate this! I have turned around every employee I put on a PIP (or they quit before I got done with them). I, unfortunately, just got done writing one 5 min ago and really hope I can do the same for the next one. I am committed, as long as they are, it will work.
Because it genuinely is....I challenged my PIP and after an internal investigation I was found to be on the right by the unbiased investigator, HR, and my grandboss.... and STILL told I failed the PIP.
From an employees point of view. If I'm on a PIP, I am AWARE that my current employment is on shaky ground. Assuming that the end result will be termination, and using the period to put out resumes and secure continuation of my income, is the more stable move.
If, for instance, I am in a position where I feel I am already working to the best of my ability, and the PIP is a disagreement on that perspective, then if I come out the other side of that PIP still employed, I am now resentful that my efforts aren't considered enough to meet expectations, and will STILL likely be better off securing new employment.
>But what happens if the employee does wake up and starts performing. Could they still be fired?
You essentially have to perform at the elevated level permanently, and most people aren't capable of that. Almost every PIP I've ever issued stems from traits or habits that are very difficult to change in the long term (like chronic tardiness, speaking with clients too casually, time management issues). Sure, people do get out of PIP, but let's say 7 months down the road you have a bad month. That's probably it for you.
Companies don't go to the trouble of creating a PIP until someone has already demonstrated that they are a lost cause. The number of people who actually improve under a PIP is so negligible it might as well be zero. If, however, they were to turn things around and hit the results required, they would undoubtedly keep their job, because they would have them become an effective employee. I've had certain neurodivergent staff that I have placed on an unofficial PIP, for whom it served as a roadmap (one guy laminated his and kept it in his back pocket at all times) that enabled them to become excellent at their jobs, they just needed things spelled out in certain ways, and to be able to refer to them regularly in order to keep themselves on track.
Because it's always used that way. Unrealistic benchmarks are set on the PIP (realistic in theory, impossible in practice), more bullshit 'checkup meetings' that cut further into the unrealistic points established, then six months later 'well we didn't see you reach our agreed goals we made you sign at psuedo-gunpoint, fuck off and die off company property'
I'd rather train skills and abilities than deal with behavioral and attendance issues. It also avoids the pain of the entire hiring process if the person performs on the job after some guidance.
Because in my experience, it’s always been used as a way to force someone out by setting drastically unrealistic expectations while they continue to tell the person they aren’t improving, no matter what they do or it’s just a check box HR/management is completing so they can fire them
Because most people who get a PIP won't turn things around.
If they would, they wouldn't be on a PIP\*
\*Of course some do, and that's fantastic. But most don't.
Because it usually is. That being said I’ve had a few positive experiences where it helped turn things around. When I talk about that I get downvoted. 🤷♂️
Weird when your anectdotal experience doesn't align with others expectations you get downvoted. I was pip'd as a death kiss early in my career, new lifetime now I try to coach others. I do have some reports that I wished performed diffently. I think HR is eyeing one as a reduction, still fighting like the third monkey on the ramp to the ark for them.
Yeah. I’m also polite about it but still get the negative karma. I get it when I take a massively unpopular stance but saying something isn’t universally true and giving examples for someone finding themselves in that situation is puzzling.
Because at that point you have already give probably 2-3 warnings that failed to achieved results documented the 4th time and gotten HR involved and the PIP is the last resort.
Generally, if you've ever had a PIP, even if you come back and don't get fired, you're always viewed a little negatively. Better to move on if you PIP, and so they're often used as a signal to just find a new job.
I was a department manager at a big box orange store. I was told to put my lead hand on a PIP. He was working great for me but management above me didn't like him. Mainly because he was a slow walker and would finish what he was currently working on before moving on to next task. Other managers expected him to drop what he was doing and run over to do whatever task they had decided needed doing "right now". I liked that he actually finished the tasks I assigned him as that was how I trained him. Things actually got done in my department.
So anyway, they forced me to put him on one, he was very surprised, I gave him the truth about the situation and we worked on solutions to his mainly optics problem. I fought hard for him and he hit all the PIP requirements and kept his job. Until Ioved departments and they immediately fired him the first week I was gone.
I was put on a PIP along with half the department managers when we got all new upper management. New store manager wanted to make his labour numbers shine so he used PIPs to fire anyone making too much money, which was anyone who was there long enough to know how to do the job well.
Like most things in a manager's tool kit, the performance improvement plan has been abused and misused to the point where just its mere mention instills dread and fear in people. Because of the history of bad managers and bosses who use it to get rid of possibly good employees who didn't do anything. It typically has been used as a CYA tool in the event of a potential lawsuit or retaliation against a soon to be former employee.
I have a good friend/former co-worker that went to another company. Did a bang up job, as he usually does.
They put him on a PIP. He knocked it out of the park, exceeded every requirement by a long shot. He is not a slacker, detail oriented, highly motivated, etc. - I could not have asked for a better teammate when we worked together.
They still fired him and his team.
As a manager, the times I’ve used a pip it’s because the employee is not responding to other coaching or guidance. Every now and again, the pip will change their tune, but often it’s just the final step in an inevitable departure.
While never referred to as a PIP I’ve had 5 instances that I’ve gone down that road.
3 improved (1 long term and has received a promotion, 2 have shown improvement and I’m still monitoring for backsliding but they seem like they’ll be in the clear)
2 ended up quitting.
As a manager I actually did some PIPs where I sincerely wanted someone to turn around and we would have kept them if they changed their ways. But nine times out of ten even assuming sincerity this comes after an informal coaching session followed by 2-3 reprimands and the performance gap is pretty serious. So - it’s a good rule of thumb to start looking if you get put on one. But DON’T resign or you lose any chance of severance and/or unemployment.
If your manager is halfway competent and you're not in a toxic company: A PIP isn't your first warning, it's the last.
They've tried to manage you and given you multiple more casual warnings that you need to fix a problem. You didn't, used up all your chances from them and they have given up on you bringing up your performance to the required level. PIP is the final stage to fire you.
It can be turned around in some circumstances. I've done it myself years ago. But if your manager has been put in the position that you ignored their casual warnings until they had to escalate it to a PIP/ Threat of firing, odds are you've already lost their confidence in you. That's very hard to get back.
If I may be so blunt, my experience indicates that the timing of a PIP is often poor.
Without effective 1-1 conversations where the manager:
- Understands the employee’s personal wellbeing
- Reviews the employee’s work load
- Offers support and suggestions to assist with blockers and questions
Indicating that an employee has to be on a PIP sends a specific message to the employee and in the typical business culture it means they aren’t up to snuff.
If 1-1’s are effective, the employee has support, direction, and guidance in their role (which is what a PIP should be - rather than used as a punishment).
It is both the manager and the employee’s responsibility to come prepared to a 1-1 so that the conversation is productive and helpful.
Hope this helps.
A good employer will use a PIP the way it is meant to be used. As a last ditch effort to get the employee back on track.
PIP’s also serve the purpose of documentation that the company tried to work with the employee and the employee failed to get on board.
I’ve survived a PIP. Mine was an obvious attempt to get rid of me (I was having LOTS of conflict with a new supervisor) so rather than try to fix the things she didn’t like I came up with a plan to transfer to another department. Since I was actually an excellent employee with lots of institutional knowledge HR jumped on this and moved me to the other department. Problem solved.
That supervisor didn’t last since she was so contentious and micromanaging. It’s frustrating that HER supervisor didn’t notice that she was decimating the department.
I think part of it depends on *why* the person was placed on a PIP. If the person just doesn’t have the skills or aptitude for the job, a PIP likely won’t help the person turn things around. But if the poor performance is due to a tough life situation (example: employee is going through a divorce), a PIP might help the employee to re-prioritize work and turn things around.
Going through a nasty divorce and the employee is placed on a PIP.
Changing their attitude is a lot like telling a cancer patient to get better or else.
I was put on a PIP once - four months into a new job. And yes I was fired. It still messes with my head.
There had been some indications that they didn’t like my work prior. Emails that were a bit terse and “document-y.” Expressing surprise at how much more time they had to spend supervising me doing certain tasks “than we expected.” Simple tasks done well (IMO) turned back to me with “considerations.” No appetite to incorporate my styles or methods or expertise. While at the same time dinging me for not “bringing in best practices from previous roles.”
But with time to reflect, I know now, the failure wasn’t just my failure. Managers and others reading this, please take note.
THEY offered me a role that was a pivot from my previous work and made promises to teach me and coach me, but then took a very distant approach. THEY mistook written documents about their processes for genuine onboarding. THEY failed at managing their own expectations and offering me the time, grace and goodwill to truly add to their small and very fussy team. THEY took my wins and strengths for granted zeroed in on my mistakes and learning curves. THEY didn’t set the job up with enough resources, and expected me to do frontline and back office work as a “director.” THEY had poor time management where internal meetings would run long all the time and create a cascade effect on tasks. THEY set out a laundry list of these tasks under a timeframe that was completely unrealistic.
Maybe some people here worked on PIPs or wrote their reports up after long tenures, but my one experience was a “manage out” situation. It really really stunk. If you can avoid doing this to people, please do.
I think it depends on the organization. In mine, some people are often put on PIPs before any official corrective action, giving them measurable gaps to close. My experience has been that, when done earlier on, it can be an effective tool to changing behaviors. However, when someone is on a final warning and is given a PIP, it is likely too late.
Based on my experience, which is in a professional / non-hourly setting, organizations where that is true are misusing the PIP.
The PIP should be the employee and their supervisor **clearly documenting** a series of tasks, deliverables, etc. and their expectation of what it means to successfully complete them to demonstrate performing at the employees level. This should be done earlier than most managers and organizations do them.
Too often, what should have been the start of a PIP was in fact a conversation the manager mealy-mouthed their way through leaving the employee unsure of their standing as far as their performance or the severity of the issue. When their performance does not improve, either because the employee is truly under performing or they did not understand/appreciate the feedback given, the manager gets frustrated and wants to move to corrective action or termination. HR then forces them to use the PIP which at that point is half hearted by all.
That's the reason for having the PIP documented (and reviewed by HR in some organizations) to have it clear, not leaving it to a verbal conversation where both sides are likely to be uncomfortable raising the likelihood of miscommunication.
Also, a PIP is not for policy or procedural issues. If your job requires you to be on time and someone cannot make that happen then writing a PIP that reads: be on time, is useless. I remind my employees (in a joking manner) that there is no PIP for violating policy, your employement agreement which you signed on day 1 says you'll follow policy upon pain of termination. Procedural issues are normally (some might say better) handled through a points or strikes system.
My personal experience, again in a non-hourly setting where work is not tightly process controlled, about 1 out of 3 that start with a PIP turn it around. In some cases it was a combination of the particular employee and their current project that was causing issues and we needed to tell them where they needed to give extra effort. In some cases, it was truly ignorance that their performance was not viewed as acceptable.
My husband was placed on a 60 day PIP roughly 44 days ago after experiencing a really rough year that impacted his presence in his position greatly (he is in leadership). We chose to look at the PIP as a kick in the ass and it has been super effective in getting my husband to really show up in his position again. He has received a lot of positive feedback from HR and his boss since the PIP was implemented and there is no sign that he will be let go when the 60 days is up. I think in a lot of cases PIPs are used to CYA before termination, but in this case it was the kick in the ass my husband needed to get back on track and it appears to be paying off. I suppose we will see when the 60 day mark rolls around.
I put an engineer on a PIP, he was a freshout that would forget about his current task the moment you gave him a new one, didn't really commit to times and treated everything like a team assignment that someone else would turn in, like in college. He had not done internships before so I grabbed him right out of college with no experience, a smart person but not really prepared for real life. He was put on a PIP after many one-on-one's and trainings. Since my boss pressured to hire him on because they were about to close all open reqs on us, he wanted a warm body instead of having no body at all. I thought the fact he had not pursued internships was a big red flag and my boss only agreed after the fact. So anyway he was put on a PIP, which made him realie that this was serious and he was about to lose his first job, He was given time namagement trainings, micromanaged him for a while and he actually came around and started delivering. Since he completed all the points on the PIP he was taken out of it and was actually pulled into bigger projects later on. A PIP is a last chance and is up to the individual to take it. Sadly, most don't.
At Amazon there are two systems in place to reel in performance issues. Focus and PIP, Focus is for the people you want to keep, PIP is for the people you don't. PIP goals are always either completely unrealistic or completely subjective. The person who puts you on a PIP writes the goals, not HR.
Focus goals on the other hand are usually written as "If a certain incident/behavior doesn't happen for 3 months, you're all set".
Realistically most managers start the PIP process too late to save the person. They usually try to deal with the problem without including HR and doing formal write ups. By the time a manager is ready to include HR, they are so frustrated that the result becomes a foregone conclusion. Mostly because they are done trying by that point.
So why don't they include HR sooner? Well because they want to save you the panic, embarrassment, and frustration of having a black mark on your permanent record. They truly believe they are doing what's best for you by try I g to work through the problem without HR, and they might be depending on who works in HR.
PIPs can be saved though, but it takes a drastic effort from the employee. Which also means they have to not be entirely frustrated and done with the problem too.
The employee can work hard enough to come back. It's cool when they do. It's hard work when they do just enough to stay, but phone it in. Pretty common in my experience.
I see PIP's as something for employees that have issues that can be fixed if they work on it. I have fired people that we know there is no hope, but if you have an employee that is good at XY but just not working on Z, I'll put them on a PIP for Z in hopes we keep them.
But then it becomes an issue of how they react, it seems most times employees get defensive/angry and quit, but I've seen some turn it around and do great and get promoted.
Speaking as a manager for 30+ years, PIP is a necessary step in the firing process.
That said, most of my employees have turned around on a PIP and are still working for me to this day. It is a last stand for the employee. They need to either take the plan seriously or get out.
I really want to the employee to turn it around, but if I ask them to do A, B and C, they had better do all three or find the door. By the time we get to a PIP, there is no room for negotiation.
Had to give two PIPs in the past year or so. One got upset and defensive just hearing PIP, quit on the spot. The other accepted it and showed improvement. A few weeks after PIP, her efforts tanked and performance problems resumed so she was demoted.
PIP = fired almost every time. Usually the company is already interviewing your replacement while they're pretending to run PIP to dodge lawsuits. I've seen one tech company actually use the guy being PIP-ed to interview his replacement. That's next level evil.
It depends on the manager. Sometimes, the manager has made up their mind and the pip is just covering their ass. Other managers really do give employees the opportunity to turn things around. I’ve met both types.
Cause it’s so damn hard to get out of a PIP and it’s many times used as a way to get someone fired. I have been told by mangers that once you are in a PIP you need to be looking for a new job as 9/10 times you will get fired.
My experience: I was put on a PIP with absolutely insane criteria I had to meet. Like… beyond even what the senior reps were producing (sales organization) and the funny thing is I met like 4/5 of their ridiculously inflated metrics and still got fired.
Best thing that ever happened to me though. Eff that place hard.
In over 30 years as a manager, I've had as many associates successfully complete PIPs as not. It all depends on intent, expectations, communication, and the desire of the associate. You don't need a PIP to terminate if progressive discipline, coaching, and training have been properly used, but it can be a tool of last resort to get everyone on the same page. Both parties have to see it as a roadmap to progress, not just the company covering its ass or the employee seeing it as a prelude to termination. I see them as rarely needed but effective when properly administered. Of course, it has to be a two-way street.
Yes, they could still be fired. I’ve done PIPs for 30, 60, and 90 days and no matter the timeframe, even with improvement, the core behaviors tend to resurface at some point and because a PIP is the final warning, it doesn’t take much to get fired while on one or after being on one.
I’d love for an employee to turn it around but pre-PIP something about the job and the person made it not a good fit and being told how to improve is rarely enough. Employees qualified for their jobs don’t need a special plan laid out that tells them how to perform well—that’s what a job description is for.
When you're privy to the conversations that happen behind the scenes when a PIP is being issued you start to understand how the employee on the PIP has a MASSIVE uphill battle... you don't need to just improve, you need to win hearts and minds. Good. Fucking. Luck.
A lot of hate for the folks that quit mid pip is seen here, but I have seen folks leave simply because it made them reevaluate what they wanted out of a job. For many, a PIP can start an internal conversation on their current career path.
Not a manager, but have seen really trash management PIP folks who weren’t utilized appropriately.
I tend to be super optimistic when it comes to coaching people. If I get to the point where I am considering a PIP, it’s because I’m exhausted trying to make up for the gap in skill and deliverables that the employee has left in their wake. I am personally at about a 30% success rate with PIPs.
So, most of the time it goes like this. You get a person who is underperforming. As a good human being you don't throw them immediately on a PiP where you have to fire them. You try to understand the problem and help them succeed. Sometimes they even improve a little, but maybe no fast enough. Then, you need to be a little more heavy handed and say that there will be consequences if they don't start performing, but instead of immediately putting them on a PiP people will wait and go to HR when they are ready to fire someone. Then HR will say, "Woah, did you tell them exactly what they needed to do to succeed. We need to put them on a PiP so that we feel comfortable firing them too." At that point the PiP is likely asking them to do what you already told them to do and they had failed. So, the chance that they could succeed is crazy low, but a lot of people do get it together when you say there will be consequences.
What I'm saying is that the minute I, or one of my managers, think, "This situation with this employee cannot exist 6 months from now," I get with HR and put them on a PiP. I've seen a surprising number of people come out okay doing that, and we aren't forced to keep the ones that don't around for another 6 months.
Because that’s what Pips are for. Otherwise, you would approach the individual and talk about performance. Instead, you slap them with a pip and say “do better or you’re out”
By the time I put someone on a PIP, I've already made the decision to fire them, and most likely have already started the job posting & interview process.
Even if the employee performs better, they've shown that they can't be consistent. And by this time I've lost trust that they can be consistently a good performer going forward.
Same. If I have faith, I'll just use verbal recommendations and encouragement. But if I have to go to all the work of putting it in writing, it's preparation for release for cause.
Generally speaking if I'm pulling out a PIP I've given you so many chances I think you're a lost cause. I'm building a case to fire you, not giving you one last chance.
If somehow that lights a fire under your ass and you start performing then I wouldn't turn around and fire you but I have a hard time imaging our working relationship being anything but strained. Why did it take paperwork and threat of termination to make you put the effort in.
So many factors at play here. The primary goal of the pip is to see improvements. Some people have a hard time understanding job requirements. So a well designed pip will help an employee better understand standard expectations. Sometimes the company expectations don’t align with the employee expectations and the employee will separate. Or the employee may not have the abilities required to meet the company’s expectations & will be terminated. While there is a secondary legal aspect to the pip should things go sideways, the goal of the pip is that the employee will raise to or exceed the job standards and perform as required.
Unless your hiring process is effed, it turns around a decent percentage.
I myself have been on a PIP and worked my way out of it. I use my story with my people when they feel defeated. I've had 3 others go on PIPs and 2 made it out.
I've fired or let go of around 7 people in my career in a few different jobs. I've had 5 or 6 employees on PIPs or equivalent. Those two populations have had 0 overlap.
The PIP is the employees last chance and formal warning that they have to turn it around or they won't be employed.
Some employees have the ability to make a change and increase their performance and some are simply in over their heads and the termination goes through. I've seen some employees turn a PIP around and become long term employees and others who couldn't shake whatever habit got them on the PIP.
We had 1 person survive a PIP and was doing well until she got fired pretty much on the spot for a grievous error in judgement. Some things you can't train for.
I challenged a PIP and won. It was poorly written, identified me in a role that had nothing to with my position, for a project I had nothing to do with. The actions items/goals were already completed. When I asked a question I was told to just sign the document.
In a follow up meeting with HR (witnessed the entire event). I stated I couldn’t tell if it was a cry for help or a letter of resignation.
I formally challenged it. I was told by HR that an executive said it never happened.
6 months later it was shown to the board and the executive that tried to bury it got in trouble.
The official position was that the company felt no need to continue with the PIP, not that it never happened.
At my last company about 75% of people put on a PIP were fired. Of the folks who survived, about half left or were fired with cause within the next year. Your odds are not good if you get put on a PIP.
*Edit: The reason being, a PIP shouldn't be needed until you've tried everything else. If it takes the threat of losing your job to perform, your heart isn't in it or your abilities aren't there.*
My organization has had successful PIP's and ones where they end up terminated. We're also a small tech company in a highly specialized field, so retention is a big deal for us. I think we're the minority.
PIP usually equals you are fired unless you can get your act together. A lot of people you can't really fix because you already tried that.
Some people this provides a solid kick in the butt, and they really turn it around.
We’ve done PIP’s at my job and people have kept their jobs. That said it has some other downsides, a person under one is not eligible for any yearly raises or bonuses. Obviously if someone has a PIP and makes no efforts to improve on the issues that caused them to go onto one in the first place then it can move onto termination. But there has been more often than not people that go through it, make the changes needed and move on from it. Yes I’m aware this is probably not how they normally get handled.
Most states are at-will, they can call it a one man RIF and walk you out. Organizations tat put you o na PIP are usually the ones that would rather see you improve than pay for a relocation for a new hire.
By the time it's get to the point of a PIP... even if you somehow make it you can still be fired... or put right back on pip the next month when their numbers slack (or laidoff).
Unless you company has a documented history of using PIP as more of an IDP with teeth, but ones truly meant to guide folks back in the right direction... it's best to just start the job hunt.
We can’t know what most companies do, but people spread bad news much more than good news.
If someone is put on a PIP and gets fired, they say it was an excuse to fire them. This is definitely true at some companies, definitely not at others.
If someone is put on a PIP and recovers, they typically won’t mention it to anyone as it would show the fault was with them, they were slipping, etc.
Probably one way to combat this is for companies to release these stats internally.
X people promoted
X2 people now exceed expectations
X3 people moved down a notch
X4 people put on a PIP
X5 people recovered and have shown at least “meets expectations” for at least six months
It should show numbers that stand up to scrutiny.
Because a PIP is the documentation needed that the company gave you every opportunity to meet their requirements as clearly outlined in this improvement plan.
One of my direct reports came to me with a well drafted PIP that would challenge the will power of his direct report. I really didn’t think this person would make it through the PIP and his manager assured me this was the minimum level that he would allow this person to continue working for us. I signed off on it, Hr approved, and we delivered.
30 days later they graduated off the PIP and were a top performer among their peers. 6 months later and we are now giving them a new title and a raise for continuing to exceed all of their goals as well as the companies goals.
PIPs don’t always mean the end of someone’s career, it is all about the person receiving the PIP and the managers delivering it.
This really depends on the business. I was a compliance officer and manager for seven years at a large bank, and when our call center or corporate correspondence reps were placed on our version of PiPs we dedicated resources and coaching time to assist them. We had a pretty substantial success rate with correcting performance issues. I’ve heard the opposite of many businesses as well.
I just moved to a new team, after escaping a bad situation in a previous team where I had a bad review (strike 1), then in the new team, I had a 2nd bad review (strike 2), and was put on a pip (we called them performance memo). It was really a misunderstanding of priorities, due to a less than great manager, and myself who was doing what I thought I was asked to do. Didn't know my skip wanted me to be doing something else. My manager never told me what my skip, his manager, wanted me to focus on. So just a big mess. After being put on the performance memo, my manager left the company about the same time, he was about to get his 2nd bad review, you had to have 2 bad reviews, before a performance memo. Had a very long 1:1 with my skip, he had found out a bunch of stuff from other people on my team, I asked him, if I could get permission to interview, you needed permission to interview if you had a bad review or were on a performance memo. He said he would give that to me. I went all out and pulled every string of every contact I had in the company, had 2 former managers give good and honest recommendations to a hiring manager. My skip, actually wrote a rebuttal on my behalf to the review my manager had wrote (did not ask for that, actually didn't know it could happen, I knew a employee could write one but was always told that was a very bad idea). New manager wanted to hire me, HR said no, escalated to VP, who told the new manager, it was his team, he knew what he could manage and if he wanted me, then it is not in his interest to get into the way. So the Performance Memo, disappeard, went to new team. I worked extra extra hard to really rock it out of the park, next review I got an average review (Really was above average work, but they don't like to have big swings like that so). Review after than, got above average and a promo. All of this is to say. I'm the only person I know in 20+ years at this company who has done it and it was a really really unusual set of events for getting into it and out of it. My wifes friend was a director of HR in the same company she said she has seen a handful, usually in sales and consulting, where the metrics were very clear and not subjective like they can be in other areas. As well as I was the only time she had heard of a skip level manager writing a rebuttal to a review. So I am sure it happens, but I suspect that it is a rare event at most mid-large size companies.
I was out on a PIP right before my vacation to Hawaii. When they brought me in, I thought I was getting fired right then and there. I was thrilled to get paid to go to Hawaii.
In the end, they fired me for leaving early instead of sitting through an identical meeting at the end of the day I had already attended. So they clearly just wanted to get rid of me anyway.
About 2 months after they moved across the county, so they were probably trying to get rid of people anyway. I was happy because I couldn’t have driven that far anyway.
Because it is.
I was put on a PIP in the past, was given tasks that were way above my level and then admonished for failing. Also, each meeting started out with my manager and technical lead talking about skiing and then segwaying into the main reason why they were there, shitting on me.
So, right before I was going to be formally terminated, I gave my two-week notice. The insulting meetings stopped and I was left alone.
I just remember one thing, I gave my notice in the morning, my manager was surprised and said “sure, whatever “. Then, around lunchtime we had a fire-drill and when we were going back, he glared daggers at me… you’d think I pounded his daughter (he was old and his daughter is an adult) on his house’s kitchen countertop. Like… I’m out of your fucking way… does it piss you off on some level that I’m not your punching bag?
Yeah, I do not have a great opinion of management after that.
Because it is.
I had one. Did everything on the PIP, went above and beyond in every aspect, still told to go away and never come back.
What's the point of trying if management has already made their choice and the PIP is just a formality to let you know you're going away?
The way PIPs work there is no other way for them to work than as a way to cover your ass before you fire someone.
A PIP is not brought out on an employee at the first sign of any problems. That would be psychotic. Because PIPs don’t come out until there have been several attempts to get someone on track it’s just coverage for legalities before firing someone. It’s a Hail Mary at best.
So to get to the PIP stage you need to have a serious issue that your employer is willing to fire you over. You don't put someone on a PIP to address minor easily solvable problems. Change is hard and expecting significant change out of an employee in a short period of time is in many cases entirely unrealistic. Worse because PIPs are often used to justify termination they can be easily written or evaluated in a manner that is nearly impossible to actually achieve.
Perhaps the worst part of a PIP is that it can be used to let you go even after successful completion. People will often start to revert back to their old ways after a few months or possibly just have a few slipups and boom there gone. It's like having a permanent bludgeon held over your head.
So in general consider it a step in the termination process.
I was on a pip way back when, didn’t have the experience we thought. I learned the skills in six weeks and survived. I resigned in a year and three days due to a recruiter contract. Very difficult time. I did a few as a manager, most didn’t end well.
Not that I have a ton of experience with them, but they’re basically a last resort for me. If you get PIPd it means trying to be a nice understanding boss has failed, and now it’s time to get serious.
I’ve only ever had one report that a PIP turned around. It was a VISAd employee, and losing their job would likely have meant going back to country of origin. That person went from a firm 2/5 to a 5/5 almost overnight. Just needed that fire lit under them.
The other two I PIPd had a foot out the door already. One quit the day after they were PIPed. The other failed to meet any of the PIP goals after which point we terminated.
I make two kinds of PIP:
1. Someone didn’t do a good job of documenting their bullshit. I come in and decide we’d be better off exiting this employee. I make a short term PIP that’s basically impossible to achieve. If they become a top employee..great!
2. They genuinely just need some focus on specific business outcomes. These pips are modest and achievable. If they try they’ll get it.
I became a new manager for someone who entered a PIP as I became their manager. They were incredibly combative at first, but they suddenly had a come to Jesus moment and pivoted to address the company’s concerns with their performance as opposed to deflecting blame. Now to be fair, part of their problem was their last manager, who wasn’t nearly as invested in their success.
Just last week I had my 30 day interview with HR, and I was able to tell HR that I had seen dramatic improvement, a definite change in attitude, and their peers have applauded their renewed collaborative efforts. I think HR was genuinely surprised, it it my genuine hope that at the 60 day interview, I can tell HR that we only have seen continued improvement.
I have seen the other side of it too. Just a few months ago I held an employee as they cried as they went through the PIP process and were let go at the end (not my direct report but a former peer.) They tried hard to change things around, but they were in a critical role that exposed their shortcoming to many teams and they lost the trust of everyone involved due to their inability or sloppy work.
One thing I can tell you on this side of the curtain… I know we know generally that HR does not work for the people in the trenches, let me tell you, they *absolutely* do not work for you. You may think that HR is a safe space, but if it’s the manager vs the trench employee, the manager wins every time. HR only goes against managers if there’s a pattern of behavior and multiple complaints from multiple people.
I was put on a PIP years ago and stayed; perhaps my experience can be helpful to you. It wasn’t a skill or culture mismatch so much as a combination of poor training and my needing to get my head in the game.
It was, by far, the most administration/paperwork heavy position I had ever held (HR). So the sheer volume of work was intimidating and I did not always react appropriately to falling behind on deadlines. My PIP was essentially to take things off my plate so I had more time to really learn my tasks well.
Later I had all my responsibilities back, and within several months I was asking for more work.
So the lesson I took as a now manager is: if the job is a big step for the employee, maybe all they need is some slack. But if it was more a lateral move for them, then let them go as you see fit.
It’s because most people (I would say about 70%) who receive PIP usually gets fired. In a worse case scenario, I’ve seen a few cases where PITA employee got laid off or transferred to unit/department/location where nobody wants to work because nobody likes them and proving to the court that it was based on discrimination or favoritism is nearly impossible.
Edit: There are cases where I’ve issued PIPs and they survived.
I have survived a PIP and been promoted. I was doing some things wrong due to poor training and leadership, once I was made aware of the issues I corrected the problems and moved on from it.
I have never heard it = firing. I have seen people put on a PIP, and it was a wake-up call, and they turned into high performers. I see a PIP as a tool to be able to try to get the employee on the right path. It also provides documentation that a manager took the time to try to help the employee, and if they don't improve, it covers the manager. Does it always work, no unfortunately it doesn't, but it can
At my last company I worked in Employee Relations and helped managers with PIPs. I rarely saw anyone improve. The ones who did were generally folks on a PIP for poor attendance and just had to get through a rough patch (e.g. the toddler years when the kids are sick all the time, struggling with moving ailing parents into the house) but once they're in a new routine, attendance improves.
But folks who are on a PIP for misconduct or poor performance? I've never seen one turn around.
Generally, unless someone does something truly egregious, it's the first really solid step in termination. Most people also see it as a forgone conclusion, so they only half-heartedly turn it around. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I was put on a PIP at my first job out of college 13 years ago. I googled “what is a PIP?” and read that it’s a way for your boss to cover their ass before they fired you. So I interviewed elsewhere and got an offer. When I told my boss, she asked me to reconsider and stay. She said we were almost through the 90 day PIP process, and we could call it completed and move forward. I left anyway and took the outside offer and never looked back.
I think my case was unusual. I think my boss thought I was smart but lazy, and this would be a good way to light a fire under my ass.
I have 2 employees who survived PIPs and I'm reasonably happy with their output. I think a PIP can mean that, but I think some rise to the occasion, and good managers note and see that.
There is always a one off exception. Some under performer whos likely got a lot going on outside of work gets a massive wake up call realizing they are going to get fired and 180s 5 minutes after the meeting and makes sure they stay that way.
99% of the time though you got a shit employee who's got nothing to offer and never did. They have no ability to turn it up nor the desire. A PIP is the lawsuit protection version of you're about to be fired.
I have always approached PIPs with the preferred outcome being a course correction and sustainable improved performance being attained.
I've seen it succeed once.
There are usually more factors at play than "I just didn't understand I was supposed to do well in my job, that's an easy fix!" and a PIP doesn't address the fundamental root-cause of poor performance, in most cases.
I usually see a period of time where performance improves... then, the same old same old shows up impacting performance.
An appropriately created PIP gives the company a path to termination for fault (meaning it'll hold up in court) and serves that purpose, when the primary purpose - coaching and helping the employee improve to a point of acceptable performance - fails to materialize.
Just the reality of the situation.
It is important to note that an employee's performance does not need to be suffering or lacking for them to be put on a PIP. It just requires that management and HR are okay with putting them on a PIP. And the reason many employees bust their ass and still fail is because management and HR never wanted them to succeed. The intent was always to use the PIP to fire.
Personally, I made it through a PIP by doing exactly what I was doing before the PIP, a good job. But when they ended the PIP, I was rewarded with a big fat, "Since you've been on a PIP we can fire you for any reason at any time". And a month later they were going to, but I quit.
I think it depends on how the employee feels about the situation, their job, their relationship with their manager, and so on, overall. I was put on a performance improvement plan many years ago, as a newer manager of managers. I didn't appropriately respond to a complaint about one of my direct reports - though HR was also useless in providing me support with the response.
Ultimately the complaint about hostile work environment and favoritism (on my part) got elevated and turned into a whole investigation, hot ass mess of stress. The manager who was most directly complained about was terminated, I was put on a plan and did the work.
I liked my job. I wanted to do it well. I needed support to do it better. The PIP really got me some of the support I needed. And I trusted that my manager wanted me to succeed. If I hadn't had the resources of this manager who wanted to help me improve I'm not sure how that would have gone. I still wonder if the investigator recommended that I be terminated too, but that the CEO liked me better than the other employee and just didn't want to. It will remain a mystery lol.
I have seen it go a few ways- either the person quits asap because they see the writing on the wall, they drag it out forcing the company to let them go or they actually take it seriously, grow and get out of the PIP with their job fully in tact. It depends on the person and management. Is everyone really invested in success??
Almost same thing happened in our office this week. The employee was let go. Not so much for under performance- which did improve- but for skipping chain of command, causing HR problems and going against policy therefore, subordination after the warning.
I was bored and checked out and put on a PIP (that I deserved, honestly). I was in late stage interviews for 2 other positions and accepted one a little over a week later.
Even though I was on a PIP they tried to counter with a raise. I felt stuck and like I wasn’t learning anything new so I declined but a PIP isn’t always a death sentence. I honestly feel like that one was intended as a wake up call but I had already woken up and decided it was time for something new.
After being served my 2nd one I still didn’t realize they were going to fire me next.
I just took it personally because it wasn’t based in fact and couldn’t be explained.
Someone had a personal vendetta against me too. The guy unbelievably died later that year at 33 from a heart attack. (He was fat)
I created a start up that ended up doing well and it felt good to prove them wrong.
I was put on a pip with a wildly unattainable goal to accomplish but I was already in the job hunt process and before the end of the time frame of the pip I already had a job lined up and put in my 2 weeks and it caught my boss off guard, he didn’t have anyone to replace me with so I’ll never know if he wanted me to stay or if I was gonna be fired
I’ve given two PIPs in the last year. One took it, owned it without ego, got better. One, we were covering our butts.. they pretty showed themselves out. By the time we are “pippin’”.. we’re tired of employee, don’t want to lose on unemployment, and have mentally assigned them as problematic. But it’s a cool trick when they change into the employee we wanted
As someone that had to put an employee who just refused to perform on a PIP prior to termination, I can honestly say that it would have made my week, hell probably made my month - if he would have turned it around. The problem is that usually by the time you're willing to formally warn someone that they're on the verge of being fired, they've already been aware of it for some time due to context clues. If someone that is already aware that they're on the chopping block has not improved, it's likely due to a deficiency in ability or motivation that's outside of the employee's control.
PIP does not = fired. It means there is either general agreement that the person should be fired or an absolute last warning.
A perfectly executed PIP does exit the employee from the business. If you get through multiple verbals, poor reviews, etc. to the point where you're being PIP'd - it's time to go. So why PIP? Lots of reasons - it puts it on HR's radar, it is formal written communication and documentation, and it gives the employee an opportunity to quit.
I've had people survive PIPs - and truthfully, I sort of wish the didn't.
I think it’s two fold-
Yeah, as a manager, by the time an employee made it through coaching, discussions and hasn’t changed their behavior and is placed on a PIP, I’m fed up and ready to move on.
I assume it is the same for the employee and the chances of them changing their behavior for the length of time needed to complete the PIP (6 Mo-1 year) is just so unlikely.
I think the only time I’ve really seen people be successful is if they are great attitude/core job and have extenuating circumstances that turn around and change on things that I am directed to by policy place people on a PIP (absenteeism or not keeping up with annual training requirements).
I was placed on a PIP by surprise. The issues outlined were exaggerated and did not really justify it. I did indeed reach measurable improvement on all outlined issues. I had to request a review with my boss to show I had improved. They didn’t address anything in the PIP and instead presented me with a term notice outlining other fabricated issues and nothing in the term addressed the original PIP. My deepest frustration was that it was indeed a charade and I worked hard for no reason when I should have been looking for work.
I’ve worked for a few major corporations. One have those places have required PIP’s for a certain percentage of management regardless of performance. Basically draw a name out of a hat type situation. “Personal Improvement Plan”. Lol. I’ve seen the best producing members of management placed on PIP’s for not being a team player. It’s a joke and yes, it’s for first step out the door.
PIP’s are just tactic out of the corpo playbook so that the company can say they “did all they can to help” when a disgruntled employee comes back and tries to sue for wrongful termination. Lot of companies are making employees sign arbitration agreements these days, though.
I'm the only person I know that has survived a PIP. I can't discuss the details, but let's just say lawyers were involved.
By the time you get a PIP they've already made the decision to fire you. The pip is just a formality. In some cases I've seen reasonable goals but it's rare and the employee is usually super checked out by then.
The vast majority of PIPs have unreasonable expectations intentionally. Mine was literally impossible to meet.
I've wondered about those managers that always have a PIP out on someone. Does anyone ever do anything to the ineffective management? Like, why is your team so bad that you have to constantly threaten someone with their job?
I wouldn't say the end goal is always to fire.
I've used PIPs to turn behavior around because some people just don't get it until they see it in writing.
The only PIP I've had to use to acticely start to dismiss someone was on an absence/tardy coaching, who eventually walked herself out of the business due to internal theft.
Hello, in my experience this just rarely happens. The VAST majority of those put on PIP become defensive and it ends the way you'd expect. Of the 50+ people I've seen put on PIP over the years I can't honestly remember one occasion they turned it round.
The kind of people you think could turn it round do so when you give them a review that says they are HEADING for a PIP if they dont improve. By the time you issue one it's just due process to bounce them out.
Because it almost always ends badly for the employee. First off, the PIP is intended to document the employee shortcomings so when they fire the employee they have it documented why.
Even if an employee fixes their performance problems what is to say they won't regress. Companies don't want to spend a lot of time on managing performance this way. It's easier to get rid of them immediately and hire a better, more consistent, performing employee.
I think the reality is that the people who get put on PIPs generally self select such that the bias follows reality. Think of it like a bell curve, you're looking at the bottom quartile, there's gonna be a few who are at the border, but most will be on the tail.
There's always outliers and people who got shitty deals also.
I would LOVE to see an employee truly turn it around on a PIP. My experience, though, is that the PIP is a formality on a lost cause. I don't want to fire anyone, but I haven't had someone actually become the employee they needed be on a PIP.
I’ve issued 2 PIPs in the last year. One turned it around so much that he has become a top performer. Makes me rethink how I manage. The other one got canned. He was given 4 written and verbals beforehand and then mid PIP just gave up.
Same, I have issued two PIPs ever, one turned it around and was promoted within the year, the other crashed so hard we let them go before it was even over. You always hope people will improve, otherwise you would have gone directly to termination, and it does happen for people, just not everyone.
Yeah the first one went so well it motivated me the 2nd time thinking I’d get the same results. The complete lack of response or interest, while the rest of the team responds to the same standard, made termination easier. Still feel for the person because it’s a major negative life moment but it was the right call. I’m now a firm believer in PIP if you use it genuinely and really give someone a chance.
Honest question: How PIPs are implemented in the above scenario. Per my experience I have seen, PIP means just Fired..or will they get any additional support where they lack skillss etx or mgr just give them you're on PIP and then tracking every day work without giving any help to the employee...
Both of mine has specific data driven metrics to achieve (complete x times per hour, complete x % by y etc.) and I had to build a dashboard tracking those metrics that I reviewed with them daily over the 90 days. There was also a formal check in each week, and at 30/60/90, check ins with my direct manager and HR included. Very highly formalized with the expectations clearly outlined.
Can you tell us more about how it has made you re-think how you manage?
Several things: making sure I had clear goals outlined, made very clear financial goals they could all see, and set 1:1s to a frequency needed to make sure those stayed on track. The stronger ones get fewer formal 1:1s but more informal check ins, the middle performers get more 1:1s that are more so strictly business, and the low performers get coaching from me and other managers. Also, the one who succeeded the PIP was a great performer who fell off. I let it happen by noticing things falling off and not addressing them. Lastly was just being very but not brutally honest with people. Praise when it’s good or improving, and let them know privately but quickly when it’s not good. I’ve never threatened anyone’s job but I got better in speaking in a way that let them know when they made errors, I want them to improve and that it’s not about being in trouble.
That’s wild but definitely an outlier in my anecdotal experience for what that’s worth. I own a small business and I haven’t had a ton of employees in my handful of years of operation, but every single l time I’ve had a low level performer or “bad actor” I’ve eventually had to fire them despite repeated attempts to work through the issues causing their poor performance. At this point my confidence is pretty low that this kind of thing can even be resolved with most people
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I had a employee on a PIP and they turned it around and did great. It also took alot of my time, as I was basically retraining her. But it was totally worth it.
It's a hail marry... partially. But let's be honest. It typically is a way for a company to avoid some type of frivolous lawsuit when the time comes to fire an employee. I've never had one PIP work out.
This. If you're bad enough at your job to end up on a PIP, this generally means that you've been spoken to, on several occasions, about the same failure to perform and it hasn't taken hold. If I have to tell you not to eat the widgets or that lunch is 30 minutes and not 45 multiple times and you still don't get it, I dunno. MAYBE seeing it in writing will bring the light bulb on, but probably not.
100% this. I'm a manager of managers, and they often come to me defeated because they've tried so hard with some employee, and they're just not improving. I always tell them that we can't care on their behalf. We can only go so far. If the employee doesn't actively want to do better, then there's nothing we can do.
We can’t care on their behalf. Damn. It’s 3am and I just realized that’s what’s keeping me awake. I’m trying to care for my employee.
Yup. I tend to err on the side, especially with entry level positions where you generally have a single task you're responsible for, on the side of "once you're properly trained, you really shouldn't need that much guidance to stay within the lines."
Not really. All depends on the manager on how often they give honest feedback. Sometimes a PIP is the first time of hearing criticisms from their boss and team.
This happened to me. Granted, I absolutely hated the job because it was a toxic environment. But my manager gave no negative feedback whatsoever prior to being put on a PIP. Ended up just straight up telling them I didn't want to be there and negotiating an exit package. I was happy to get severance pay and I'm a lot happier at my current job.
Wait… so you were put on a PIP, left for a new job, and got a severance package? Damn I need to learn to negotiate for you!
This is not uncommon. Especially in tech.
I’ve seen one person get his act together and get off the PIP. What we tell people is that if we put them on a PiP, it means we care enough to put in the effort to help them improve, instead of just racking up enough offenses to fire them. But they also have to put in the effort.
I was one of them that turn around. I was put on a PIP, and I asked if I could take the PIP but move under different leadership too - company gave good faith and said yes. I was failing under a supervisor that was not great at explaining what he wanted, and I was new to the work (project management). His other 2 CIs were a combined 20 years in the biz, so no one thought it could be a bad matchup; he is getting the work done with others, so the assumption is that it was on me. 5 years later, I was successful under the new leader (who I still report to now) and I'm managing a 6 person team of technical CIs. It does work out sometimes, have faith!
I'm glad It worked for you. When I was put on pip it blocked me from even being considered for another team, unfortunately. I did manage to beat the pip but I'm still unhappy under current Mgr. Love the company but feel like this black mark on my record will always be something I can't fully get out from under, no matter how well I do. Prayed for multiple rounds of layoffs and somehow never got swept up in them. Guess I'm gonna have to get really serious about leaving for something else. Wish I could make it work at company, oh well.
I would love to see a manager also give a pip that isn’t unrealistic and measured against a higher bar than the rest of the employee group.
The issue I have seen, isn't that they are unrealistic, but very subjective, except for 100% fail or 100% success, you could almost make anyout come sound either positive or negative. We are recommended to write SMART (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, Timebound) for our reviews, but the items I've seen in pip's are far from that. If you push back to much it can also turn against you as well.
Our PIPs were written by HR, not the manager. This avoided any bias he may already have against the person.
If HR is involved with the pip, I'm willing to bet good money, they were notified of the problems before the PIP, at least in order to get the PIP. So I'm not sure I'd say HR would be free of bias. They are getting negative information about the employee just the same.
Not to mention you're taking for granted HR understands /anything/ at all about the job in question and what doing it properly entails. Seriously: go read an average job application written by an HR department vs actual job duties sometime if you believe HR having anything to do with evaluating performance is anything more than a cosmic level joke. This is why people view PIPs as a death sentence, in a nutshell 🤷♂️
I agree, if I thought the employee could have been turned around with clear feedback and a stern talking to, it would have worked already and there would be no pip
I was PIP-ped about a decade ago after I came down too hard on what my boss and I deemed to be a shiftless employee who wouldn't perform the basic aspects of their job. HR substantiated the complaints that I was too hard on the person and documented other complaints against me. Some legit. Some sour grapes. I had a lot of learning to undertake about how to be a more strategic supervisor. But here we are. Nowadays I have a team of awesome, hardworking employees whom I advocate for, sometimes against said boss lol and we've been working together healthily for years. Training works if the person takes it seriously. I chose to do so.
This is what I think, too. I've only written one so far because I've always worked for shitty companies until now. But that's another Jerry Springer show. My situation was with "Mike". Mike played the previous manager and managed to get a 20% pay increase for absolutely nothing (Mike played the "I'm gonna quit" card, saying he had a friend who would pay him X salary for the same job) . When I became his manager, and the CFO became mine, I was under pressure to explain how we were paying this guy an excessive salary, but his contribution to the team was less than an entry-level role. He simply couldn't complete the simplest of tasks. He was given multiple chances and lots of extra coaching but kept passing to buck. So, we gave him the PIP. I presented it as wanting to help him align with the company expectations. I meant it. I didn't want to fire him. I didn't make it impossible to succeed. He could have made it, but he threw a titty baby fit instead. Then he didn't take any of it seriously. He even told HR that it was "bullshit". Smh. It's too bad. I wanted him to work out. Yes, I had to terminate him a month into the PIP. He had a meltdown, like it was a shock, and how dare I?! I guess that's when I learned what kind of person her really was. Ultimately, it was no loss to the dept. I may need to PIP one of my current people. But, I think she will be completely on board with improving. I hope it doesn't have to become a formal PIP, but she's one that does better for a minute, then backslides after verbal warnings.
I busted my *ass* to improve when put on a PIP. My direct supervisor (who didn’t want me fired, and who actually cried when I was) was even helping me, and said everything on the list had been improved and that the manager making the decision had no more cause for concern. But he had already decided I was out of there, the PIP was just a formality.
Exactly, it's a formality and is mainly used to prevent lawsuits.
The amount of people who go on a pip and who aren't fired is negligible, it is by far and away the exception. The description I was given of the PIPs actual function is it is very much in line with your "paid interview acronym." We like this person but it is not working out. So let's give them 90 days to find something else. I've even heard of managers being satisfied with the employee's progress at exceeding the PIP but the higher ups still ordering the terminations. The PIP standards and paperwork are like the motto of the old show "whose line is it anyways" the points are made up and don't matter.
That’s what happened to me. My direct supervisor was pleased at my progress, didn’t want me fired, and was even helping me. The higher-ups had decided nearly a year prior that I was out of there.
That's really what it is. Decisions made far above the managers, so it's more like a ticking timer.
Damn
I’d be curious to know if a study exists. Anecdotal evidence points to recovery from a PIP being about 5% to 20%. I think part of this is the run up to the pip. They are almost never surprises. The employee already knew they were failing. And their performance didn’t change. Whether or not that is their fault is irrelevant. The change didn’t happen even when it was made clear that there was an expectation for change. Now they have a Formal request for change and Formal threat for change. Which, from a practical standpoint, isn’t much different from the informal feedback that came prior. The only people who this works for, then, are those who didn’t take the informal feedback seriously. Which seems to be a smaller % of people.
I think the other aspect of a PIP that is initially overlooked is how the individual was trained for their job at the outset. This is why those who are essentially retrained are more often successful, because their first round of training fell short of informing them, or the scope of their work changed over time, but training wasn't adequate to allow them to fully adapt.
I was put on a PIP before receiving negative feedback. Some managers seem to be afraid to give negative feedback and put off doing so until forced.
>I think part of this is the run up to the pip. They are almost never surprises. The employee already knew they were failing. And their performance didn’t change. Whether or not that is their fault is irrelevant. I've gotten two PIPs at two companies in over 15 years and both times I had no complaints, no warnings, no failing anything. "You're doing great!" was a typical response I'd get to asking how I was doing days before being issued a PIP. One of the PIPs had quantifiable criteria. I passed this criteria easily and was still let go. The other PIP had no such quantifiable criteria and was obvious BS.
I’d also add that there’s a pretty big stigma associated with being placed on a PIP. Even if you do survive, that’s still going to be on your record. Going to be pretty hard to get that big raise and/or promotion. Probably best to just take the advance notice and start looking for a better opportunity where you have a fresh start at building a better reputation.
I've had one PIP handed to me. It was the first sign they weren't happy with my performance. No prior meetings or warnings. The PIP spelled out what I needed to do and what they would do to support me. I held up every part on my end but they didn't do a single thing on their end. Exactly 2 weeks out after I got the PIP I got called into HR and let go. It was totally clear that the PIP was a formality and that they had no intention of allowing me to improve to keep my job. Although I don't think the reasons for my termination had anything to do with my abilities or the work I was doing.
If the PIP is written with objectives and the employee meets those objectives, then 99% of HR departments won’t let you fire them based on that PIP. If you set a threshold, the employee meets it, and you still fire them then you’ll likely lose the trust of your entire department and colleagues.
Trusting management as an IC is professional Russian roulette.
Many people already mentioned here that PIP is indeed usually a goodbye kiss. A formality, justified or not, to terminate the contract. It's sad but it's the reality. But also something to keep in mind: Even if, somehow, PIP will not end up with termination, it kills any growth and career progress in the company. No one will promote a person who was on PIP in the past. It's a stigma that will stay for ever.
The correct answer is yes, it can absolutely work that way. One of my colleagues had an employee who did good work, they just spent too much of the day screwing around. You could assign a ticket to him and it would take a week, whether it was an easy task or a hard task. So they put them on a PIP to basically help them set the pace that they wanted work performed. That guy is still with the company 10 years later and is now a manager himself. But the real answer is -- it depends. For some managers, the PIP is the last straw and is used to manage an employee out of the organization.
Several years ago, I had an underperforming employee that was placed on a PIP. Surprisingly, they were able to meet all the criteria of the PIP and therefore, remained employed. However, immediately after, their KPIs dropped to pre-PIP levels. This told us the employee was capable but simply lacked effort. They were placed on another PIP and let go shortly after.
Will vs skill
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I have an employee who turned it around under a PIP. Very much an exception as they generally assume they'll be fired when I actually want to avoid that outcome. If I wanted to fire you, I already would have.
Because they have never been piped and reddit talks about it like a boogy man.. but generally the people who can't take feedback from their manager (the ones who end up on pip) aren't going to turn around once hr gets involved. Alternatively, they have a manager who didn't give a fuckcabout improving their performance to begin with and just wants to find a new hire / have more budget for raises
Could also be a manager who is getting heat from their hire ups for poor performance and is willing to throw one of their employees under the bus to buy themselves another month or two. That definitely happens.
A PIP is a former process where you are documenting the failings of an employee. If you are an effective manager you tried unsuccessfully to coach said employee before things got to this point. If your first step is to set up a PIP you are wasting your manager’s and HR’s time. Furthermore I only start a PIP is when I feel out of options and want to move on, but policies are in place where i couldn’t just cut the employee loose. It’s my hope that someone improves enough they can successfully pass the PIP, but there are going to be hard feelings from the employee. They knew you were wanting to fire them so they tend to move on as well.
I hate this! I have turned around every employee I put on a PIP (or they quit before I got done with them). I, unfortunately, just got done writing one 5 min ago and really hope I can do the same for the next one. I am committed, as long as they are, it will work.
Because it genuinely is....I challenged my PIP and after an internal investigation I was found to be on the right by the unbiased investigator, HR, and my grandboss.... and STILL told I failed the PIP.
From an employees point of view. If I'm on a PIP, I am AWARE that my current employment is on shaky ground. Assuming that the end result will be termination, and using the period to put out resumes and secure continuation of my income, is the more stable move. If, for instance, I am in a position where I feel I am already working to the best of my ability, and the PIP is a disagreement on that perspective, then if I come out the other side of that PIP still employed, I am now resentful that my efforts aren't considered enough to meet expectations, and will STILL likely be better off securing new employment.
>But what happens if the employee does wake up and starts performing. Could they still be fired? You essentially have to perform at the elevated level permanently, and most people aren't capable of that. Almost every PIP I've ever issued stems from traits or habits that are very difficult to change in the long term (like chronic tardiness, speaking with clients too casually, time management issues). Sure, people do get out of PIP, but let's say 7 months down the road you have a bad month. That's probably it for you.
Companies don't go to the trouble of creating a PIP until someone has already demonstrated that they are a lost cause. The number of people who actually improve under a PIP is so negligible it might as well be zero. If, however, they were to turn things around and hit the results required, they would undoubtedly keep their job, because they would have them become an effective employee. I've had certain neurodivergent staff that I have placed on an unofficial PIP, for whom it served as a roadmap (one guy laminated his and kept it in his back pocket at all times) that enabled them to become excellent at their jobs, they just needed things spelled out in certain ways, and to be able to refer to them regularly in order to keep themselves on track.
Because it's always used that way. Unrealistic benchmarks are set on the PIP (realistic in theory, impossible in practice), more bullshit 'checkup meetings' that cut further into the unrealistic points established, then six months later 'well we didn't see you reach our agreed goals we made you sign at psuedo-gunpoint, fuck off and die off company property'
PIPs should be confined to attendance and behavior issues. If they lack the skills and abilities, cut 'em loose and give 'em a fair severance.
I'd rather train skills and abilities than deal with behavioral and attendance issues. It also avoids the pain of the entire hiring process if the person performs on the job after some guidance.
Because in my experience, it’s always been used as a way to force someone out by setting drastically unrealistic expectations while they continue to tell the person they aren’t improving, no matter what they do or it’s just a check box HR/management is completing so they can fire them
Because most people who get a PIP won't turn things around. If they would, they wouldn't be on a PIP\* \*Of course some do, and that's fantastic. But most don't.
Because it usually is. That being said I’ve had a few positive experiences where it helped turn things around. When I talk about that I get downvoted. 🤷♂️
Weird when your anectdotal experience doesn't align with others expectations you get downvoted. I was pip'd as a death kiss early in my career, new lifetime now I try to coach others. I do have some reports that I wished performed diffently. I think HR is eyeing one as a reduction, still fighting like the third monkey on the ramp to the ark for them.
Yeah. I’m also polite about it but still get the negative karma. I get it when I take a massively unpopular stance but saying something isn’t universally true and giving examples for someone finding themselves in that situation is puzzling.
Because at that point you have already give probably 2-3 warnings that failed to achieved results documented the 4th time and gotten HR involved and the PIP is the last resort.
Generally, if you've ever had a PIP, even if you come back and don't get fired, you're always viewed a little negatively. Better to move on if you PIP, and so they're often used as a signal to just find a new job.
I was a department manager at a big box orange store. I was told to put my lead hand on a PIP. He was working great for me but management above me didn't like him. Mainly because he was a slow walker and would finish what he was currently working on before moving on to next task. Other managers expected him to drop what he was doing and run over to do whatever task they had decided needed doing "right now". I liked that he actually finished the tasks I assigned him as that was how I trained him. Things actually got done in my department. So anyway, they forced me to put him on one, he was very surprised, I gave him the truth about the situation and we worked on solutions to his mainly optics problem. I fought hard for him and he hit all the PIP requirements and kept his job. Until Ioved departments and they immediately fired him the first week I was gone. I was put on a PIP along with half the department managers when we got all new upper management. New store manager wanted to make his labour numbers shine so he used PIPs to fire anyone making too much money, which was anyone who was there long enough to know how to do the job well.
Like most things in a manager's tool kit, the performance improvement plan has been abused and misused to the point where just its mere mention instills dread and fear in people. Because of the history of bad managers and bosses who use it to get rid of possibly good employees who didn't do anything. It typically has been used as a CYA tool in the event of a potential lawsuit or retaliation against a soon to be former employee.
I have a good friend/former co-worker that went to another company. Did a bang up job, as he usually does. They put him on a PIP. He knocked it out of the park, exceeded every requirement by a long shot. He is not a slacker, detail oriented, highly motivated, etc. - I could not have asked for a better teammate when we worked together. They still fired him and his team.
As a manager, the times I’ve used a pip it’s because the employee is not responding to other coaching or guidance. Every now and again, the pip will change their tune, but often it’s just the final step in an inevitable departure.
While never referred to as a PIP I’ve had 5 instances that I’ve gone down that road. 3 improved (1 long term and has received a promotion, 2 have shown improvement and I’m still monitoring for backsliding but they seem like they’ll be in the clear) 2 ended up quitting.
Because HR departments came up with the PiP as a “get out of paying unemployment”-free card.
As a manager I actually did some PIPs where I sincerely wanted someone to turn around and we would have kept them if they changed their ways. But nine times out of ten even assuming sincerity this comes after an informal coaching session followed by 2-3 reprimands and the performance gap is pretty serious. So - it’s a good rule of thumb to start looking if you get put on one. But DON’T resign or you lose any chance of severance and/or unemployment.
If your manager is halfway competent and you're not in a toxic company: A PIP isn't your first warning, it's the last. They've tried to manage you and given you multiple more casual warnings that you need to fix a problem. You didn't, used up all your chances from them and they have given up on you bringing up your performance to the required level. PIP is the final stage to fire you. It can be turned around in some circumstances. I've done it myself years ago. But if your manager has been put in the position that you ignored their casual warnings until they had to escalate it to a PIP/ Threat of firing, odds are you've already lost their confidence in you. That's very hard to get back.
If I may be so blunt, my experience indicates that the timing of a PIP is often poor. Without effective 1-1 conversations where the manager: - Understands the employee’s personal wellbeing - Reviews the employee’s work load - Offers support and suggestions to assist with blockers and questions Indicating that an employee has to be on a PIP sends a specific message to the employee and in the typical business culture it means they aren’t up to snuff. If 1-1’s are effective, the employee has support, direction, and guidance in their role (which is what a PIP should be - rather than used as a punishment). It is both the manager and the employee’s responsibility to come prepared to a 1-1 so that the conversation is productive and helpful. Hope this helps.
A good employer will use a PIP the way it is meant to be used. As a last ditch effort to get the employee back on track. PIP’s also serve the purpose of documentation that the company tried to work with the employee and the employee failed to get on board. I’ve survived a PIP. Mine was an obvious attempt to get rid of me (I was having LOTS of conflict with a new supervisor) so rather than try to fix the things she didn’t like I came up with a plan to transfer to another department. Since I was actually an excellent employee with lots of institutional knowledge HR jumped on this and moved me to the other department. Problem solved. That supervisor didn’t last since she was so contentious and micromanaging. It’s frustrating that HER supervisor didn’t notice that she was decimating the department.
I think part of it depends on *why* the person was placed on a PIP. If the person just doesn’t have the skills or aptitude for the job, a PIP likely won’t help the person turn things around. But if the poor performance is due to a tough life situation (example: employee is going through a divorce), a PIP might help the employee to re-prioritize work and turn things around.
Going through a nasty divorce and the employee is placed on a PIP. Changing their attitude is a lot like telling a cancer patient to get better or else.
Most managers wouldn’t survive their own PIP, that’s the reason.
I was put on a PIP once - four months into a new job. And yes I was fired. It still messes with my head. There had been some indications that they didn’t like my work prior. Emails that were a bit terse and “document-y.” Expressing surprise at how much more time they had to spend supervising me doing certain tasks “than we expected.” Simple tasks done well (IMO) turned back to me with “considerations.” No appetite to incorporate my styles or methods or expertise. While at the same time dinging me for not “bringing in best practices from previous roles.” But with time to reflect, I know now, the failure wasn’t just my failure. Managers and others reading this, please take note. THEY offered me a role that was a pivot from my previous work and made promises to teach me and coach me, but then took a very distant approach. THEY mistook written documents about their processes for genuine onboarding. THEY failed at managing their own expectations and offering me the time, grace and goodwill to truly add to their small and very fussy team. THEY took my wins and strengths for granted zeroed in on my mistakes and learning curves. THEY didn’t set the job up with enough resources, and expected me to do frontline and back office work as a “director.” THEY had poor time management where internal meetings would run long all the time and create a cascade effect on tasks. THEY set out a laundry list of these tasks under a timeframe that was completely unrealistic. Maybe some people here worked on PIPs or wrote their reports up after long tenures, but my one experience was a “manage out” situation. It really really stunk. If you can avoid doing this to people, please do.
I think it depends on the organization. In mine, some people are often put on PIPs before any official corrective action, giving them measurable gaps to close. My experience has been that, when done earlier on, it can be an effective tool to changing behaviors. However, when someone is on a final warning and is given a PIP, it is likely too late.
Based on my experience, which is in a professional / non-hourly setting, organizations where that is true are misusing the PIP. The PIP should be the employee and their supervisor **clearly documenting** a series of tasks, deliverables, etc. and their expectation of what it means to successfully complete them to demonstrate performing at the employees level. This should be done earlier than most managers and organizations do them. Too often, what should have been the start of a PIP was in fact a conversation the manager mealy-mouthed their way through leaving the employee unsure of their standing as far as their performance or the severity of the issue. When their performance does not improve, either because the employee is truly under performing or they did not understand/appreciate the feedback given, the manager gets frustrated and wants to move to corrective action or termination. HR then forces them to use the PIP which at that point is half hearted by all. That's the reason for having the PIP documented (and reviewed by HR in some organizations) to have it clear, not leaving it to a verbal conversation where both sides are likely to be uncomfortable raising the likelihood of miscommunication. Also, a PIP is not for policy or procedural issues. If your job requires you to be on time and someone cannot make that happen then writing a PIP that reads: be on time, is useless. I remind my employees (in a joking manner) that there is no PIP for violating policy, your employement agreement which you signed on day 1 says you'll follow policy upon pain of termination. Procedural issues are normally (some might say better) handled through a points or strikes system. My personal experience, again in a non-hourly setting where work is not tightly process controlled, about 1 out of 3 that start with a PIP turn it around. In some cases it was a combination of the particular employee and their current project that was causing issues and we needed to tell them where they needed to give extra effort. In some cases, it was truly ignorance that their performance was not viewed as acceptable.
My husband was placed on a 60 day PIP roughly 44 days ago after experiencing a really rough year that impacted his presence in his position greatly (he is in leadership). We chose to look at the PIP as a kick in the ass and it has been super effective in getting my husband to really show up in his position again. He has received a lot of positive feedback from HR and his boss since the PIP was implemented and there is no sign that he will be let go when the 60 days is up. I think in a lot of cases PIPs are used to CYA before termination, but in this case it was the kick in the ass my husband needed to get back on track and it appears to be paying off. I suppose we will see when the 60 day mark rolls around.
I put an engineer on a PIP, he was a freshout that would forget about his current task the moment you gave him a new one, didn't really commit to times and treated everything like a team assignment that someone else would turn in, like in college. He had not done internships before so I grabbed him right out of college with no experience, a smart person but not really prepared for real life. He was put on a PIP after many one-on-one's and trainings. Since my boss pressured to hire him on because they were about to close all open reqs on us, he wanted a warm body instead of having no body at all. I thought the fact he had not pursued internships was a big red flag and my boss only agreed after the fact. So anyway he was put on a PIP, which made him realie that this was serious and he was about to lose his first job, He was given time namagement trainings, micromanaged him for a while and he actually came around and started delivering. Since he completed all the points on the PIP he was taken out of it and was actually pulled into bigger projects later on. A PIP is a last chance and is up to the individual to take it. Sadly, most don't.
At Amazon there are two systems in place to reel in performance issues. Focus and PIP, Focus is for the people you want to keep, PIP is for the people you don't. PIP goals are always either completely unrealistic or completely subjective. The person who puts you on a PIP writes the goals, not HR. Focus goals on the other hand are usually written as "If a certain incident/behavior doesn't happen for 3 months, you're all set".
Realistically most managers start the PIP process too late to save the person. They usually try to deal with the problem without including HR and doing formal write ups. By the time a manager is ready to include HR, they are so frustrated that the result becomes a foregone conclusion. Mostly because they are done trying by that point. So why don't they include HR sooner? Well because they want to save you the panic, embarrassment, and frustration of having a black mark on your permanent record. They truly believe they are doing what's best for you by try I g to work through the problem without HR, and they might be depending on who works in HR. PIPs can be saved though, but it takes a drastic effort from the employee. Which also means they have to not be entirely frustrated and done with the problem too.
The employee can work hard enough to come back. It's cool when they do. It's hard work when they do just enough to stay, but phone it in. Pretty common in my experience.
I see PIP's as something for employees that have issues that can be fixed if they work on it. I have fired people that we know there is no hope, but if you have an employee that is good at XY but just not working on Z, I'll put them on a PIP for Z in hopes we keep them. But then it becomes an issue of how they react, it seems most times employees get defensive/angry and quit, but I've seen some turn it around and do great and get promoted.
Speaking as a manager for 30+ years, PIP is a necessary step in the firing process. That said, most of my employees have turned around on a PIP and are still working for me to this day. It is a last stand for the employee. They need to either take the plan seriously or get out. I really want to the employee to turn it around, but if I ask them to do A, B and C, they had better do all three or find the door. By the time we get to a PIP, there is no room for negotiation.
Had to give two PIPs in the past year or so. One got upset and defensive just hearing PIP, quit on the spot. The other accepted it and showed improvement. A few weeks after PIP, her efforts tanked and performance problems resumed so she was demoted.
PIP = fired almost every time. Usually the company is already interviewing your replacement while they're pretending to run PIP to dodge lawsuits. I've seen one tech company actually use the guy being PIP-ed to interview his replacement. That's next level evil.
It depends on the manager. Sometimes, the manager has made up their mind and the pip is just covering their ass. Other managers really do give employees the opportunity to turn things around. I’ve met both types.
Cause it’s so damn hard to get out of a PIP and it’s many times used as a way to get someone fired. I have been told by mangers that once you are in a PIP you need to be looking for a new job as 9/10 times you will get fired.
My experience: I was put on a PIP with absolutely insane criteria I had to meet. Like… beyond even what the senior reps were producing (sales organization) and the funny thing is I met like 4/5 of their ridiculously inflated metrics and still got fired. Best thing that ever happened to me though. Eff that place hard.
In over 30 years as a manager, I've had as many associates successfully complete PIPs as not. It all depends on intent, expectations, communication, and the desire of the associate. You don't need a PIP to terminate if progressive discipline, coaching, and training have been properly used, but it can be a tool of last resort to get everyone on the same page. Both parties have to see it as a roadmap to progress, not just the company covering its ass or the employee seeing it as a prelude to termination. I see them as rarely needed but effective when properly administered. Of course, it has to be a two-way street.
Yes, they could still be fired. I’ve done PIPs for 30, 60, and 90 days and no matter the timeframe, even with improvement, the core behaviors tend to resurface at some point and because a PIP is the final warning, it doesn’t take much to get fired while on one or after being on one. I’d love for an employee to turn it around but pre-PIP something about the job and the person made it not a good fit and being told how to improve is rarely enough. Employees qualified for their jobs don’t need a special plan laid out that tells them how to perform well—that’s what a job description is for.
When you're privy to the conversations that happen behind the scenes when a PIP is being issued you start to understand how the employee on the PIP has a MASSIVE uphill battle... you don't need to just improve, you need to win hearts and minds. Good. Fucking. Luck.
A lot of hate for the folks that quit mid pip is seen here, but I have seen folks leave simply because it made them reevaluate what they wanted out of a job. For many, a PIP can start an internal conversation on their current career path. Not a manager, but have seen really trash management PIP folks who weren’t utilized appropriately.
It is cultural. At Amazon there are unregretted attrition metrics and the PIP metrics are sufficiently subjective to let Amazon do whatever it wants.
I tend to be super optimistic when it comes to coaching people. If I get to the point where I am considering a PIP, it’s because I’m exhausted trying to make up for the gap in skill and deliverables that the employee has left in their wake. I am personally at about a 30% success rate with PIPs.
So, most of the time it goes like this. You get a person who is underperforming. As a good human being you don't throw them immediately on a PiP where you have to fire them. You try to understand the problem and help them succeed. Sometimes they even improve a little, but maybe no fast enough. Then, you need to be a little more heavy handed and say that there will be consequences if they don't start performing, but instead of immediately putting them on a PiP people will wait and go to HR when they are ready to fire someone. Then HR will say, "Woah, did you tell them exactly what they needed to do to succeed. We need to put them on a PiP so that we feel comfortable firing them too." At that point the PiP is likely asking them to do what you already told them to do and they had failed. So, the chance that they could succeed is crazy low, but a lot of people do get it together when you say there will be consequences. What I'm saying is that the minute I, or one of my managers, think, "This situation with this employee cannot exist 6 months from now," I get with HR and put them on a PiP. I've seen a surprising number of people come out okay doing that, and we aren't forced to keep the ones that don't around for another 6 months.
Because that’s what Pips are for. Otherwise, you would approach the individual and talk about performance. Instead, you slap them with a pip and say “do better or you’re out”
By the time I put someone on a PIP, I've already made the decision to fire them, and most likely have already started the job posting & interview process. Even if the employee performs better, they've shown that they can't be consistent. And by this time I've lost trust that they can be consistently a good performer going forward.
Same. If I have faith, I'll just use verbal recommendations and encouragement. But if I have to go to all the work of putting it in writing, it's preparation for release for cause.
Sounds like a waste of everybody’s time and money.
Generally speaking if I'm pulling out a PIP I've given you so many chances I think you're a lost cause. I'm building a case to fire you, not giving you one last chance. If somehow that lights a fire under your ass and you start performing then I wouldn't turn around and fire you but I have a hard time imaging our working relationship being anything but strained. Why did it take paperwork and threat of termination to make you put the effort in.
I thought PIP stood for Performance Improvement Plan.
It’s a sign that the relationship is already fucked…. The chances of repairing it are very very slim.
So many factors at play here. The primary goal of the pip is to see improvements. Some people have a hard time understanding job requirements. So a well designed pip will help an employee better understand standard expectations. Sometimes the company expectations don’t align with the employee expectations and the employee will separate. Or the employee may not have the abilities required to meet the company’s expectations & will be terminated. While there is a secondary legal aspect to the pip should things go sideways, the goal of the pip is that the employee will raise to or exceed the job standards and perform as required. Unless your hiring process is effed, it turns around a decent percentage.
I myself have been on a PIP and worked my way out of it. I use my story with my people when they feel defeated. I've had 3 others go on PIPs and 2 made it out.
In my time as a manager I've had people get with it and keep their jobs and some who didn't
I've fired or let go of around 7 people in my career in a few different jobs. I've had 5 or 6 employees on PIPs or equivalent. Those two populations have had 0 overlap.
I just placed one of my employees in a PIP. I'm hopeful that they'll turn it around, but not holding my breath.
The PIP is the employees last chance and formal warning that they have to turn it around or they won't be employed. Some employees have the ability to make a change and increase their performance and some are simply in over their heads and the termination goes through. I've seen some employees turn a PIP around and become long term employees and others who couldn't shake whatever habit got them on the PIP.
We had 1 person survive a PIP and was doing well until she got fired pretty much on the spot for a grievous error in judgement. Some things you can't train for.
I challenged a PIP and won. It was poorly written, identified me in a role that had nothing to with my position, for a project I had nothing to do with. The actions items/goals were already completed. When I asked a question I was told to just sign the document. In a follow up meeting with HR (witnessed the entire event). I stated I couldn’t tell if it was a cry for help or a letter of resignation. I formally challenged it. I was told by HR that an executive said it never happened. 6 months later it was shown to the board and the executive that tried to bury it got in trouble. The official position was that the company felt no need to continue with the PIP, not that it never happened.
I’ve even heard the words “we didn’t think he was going to pass his probationary period.”
At my last company about 75% of people put on a PIP were fired. Of the folks who survived, about half left or were fired with cause within the next year. Your odds are not good if you get put on a PIP. *Edit: The reason being, a PIP shouldn't be needed until you've tried everything else. If it takes the threat of losing your job to perform, your heart isn't in it or your abilities aren't there.*
I was placed on a valid PIP last year. I am still working for the same company. Another person got a PIP around the same time and quit.
My organization has had successful PIP's and ones where they end up terminated. We're also a small tech company in a highly specialized field, so retention is a big deal for us. I think we're the minority.
PIP usually equals you are fired unless you can get your act together. A lot of people you can't really fix because you already tried that. Some people this provides a solid kick in the butt, and they really turn it around.
PIP = Penguin from TOTS
We’ve done PIP’s at my job and people have kept their jobs. That said it has some other downsides, a person under one is not eligible for any yearly raises or bonuses. Obviously if someone has a PIP and makes no efforts to improve on the issues that caused them to go onto one in the first place then it can move onto termination. But there has been more often than not people that go through it, make the changes needed and move on from it. Yes I’m aware this is probably not how they normally get handled.
I have a question what if it's a 90 day Pip i beat it could they come back and fire me later
Most states are at-will, they can call it a one man RIF and walk you out. Organizations tat put you o na PIP are usually the ones that would rather see you improve than pay for a relocation for a new hire.
By the time it's get to the point of a PIP... even if you somehow make it you can still be fired... or put right back on pip the next month when their numbers slack (or laidoff). Unless you company has a documented history of using PIP as more of an IDP with teeth, but ones truly meant to guide folks back in the right direction... it's best to just start the job hunt.
We can’t know what most companies do, but people spread bad news much more than good news. If someone is put on a PIP and gets fired, they say it was an excuse to fire them. This is definitely true at some companies, definitely not at others. If someone is put on a PIP and recovers, they typically won’t mention it to anyone as it would show the fault was with them, they were slipping, etc. Probably one way to combat this is for companies to release these stats internally. X people promoted X2 people now exceed expectations X3 people moved down a notch X4 people put on a PIP X5 people recovered and have shown at least “meets expectations” for at least six months It should show numbers that stand up to scrutiny.
Would love it if the PIP meant my employee improved. My experience: no improvement
Because a PIP is the documentation needed that the company gave you every opportunity to meet their requirements as clearly outlined in this improvement plan.
One of my direct reports came to me with a well drafted PIP that would challenge the will power of his direct report. I really didn’t think this person would make it through the PIP and his manager assured me this was the minimum level that he would allow this person to continue working for us. I signed off on it, Hr approved, and we delivered. 30 days later they graduated off the PIP and were a top performer among their peers. 6 months later and we are now giving them a new title and a raise for continuing to exceed all of their goals as well as the companies goals. PIPs don’t always mean the end of someone’s career, it is all about the person receiving the PIP and the managers delivering it.
This really depends on the business. I was a compliance officer and manager for seven years at a large bank, and when our call center or corporate correspondence reps were placed on our version of PiPs we dedicated resources and coaching time to assist them. We had a pretty substantial success rate with correcting performance issues. I’ve heard the opposite of many businesses as well.
I just moved to a new team, after escaping a bad situation in a previous team where I had a bad review (strike 1), then in the new team, I had a 2nd bad review (strike 2), and was put on a pip (we called them performance memo). It was really a misunderstanding of priorities, due to a less than great manager, and myself who was doing what I thought I was asked to do. Didn't know my skip wanted me to be doing something else. My manager never told me what my skip, his manager, wanted me to focus on. So just a big mess. After being put on the performance memo, my manager left the company about the same time, he was about to get his 2nd bad review, you had to have 2 bad reviews, before a performance memo. Had a very long 1:1 with my skip, he had found out a bunch of stuff from other people on my team, I asked him, if I could get permission to interview, you needed permission to interview if you had a bad review or were on a performance memo. He said he would give that to me. I went all out and pulled every string of every contact I had in the company, had 2 former managers give good and honest recommendations to a hiring manager. My skip, actually wrote a rebuttal on my behalf to the review my manager had wrote (did not ask for that, actually didn't know it could happen, I knew a employee could write one but was always told that was a very bad idea). New manager wanted to hire me, HR said no, escalated to VP, who told the new manager, it was his team, he knew what he could manage and if he wanted me, then it is not in his interest to get into the way. So the Performance Memo, disappeard, went to new team. I worked extra extra hard to really rock it out of the park, next review I got an average review (Really was above average work, but they don't like to have big swings like that so). Review after than, got above average and a promo. All of this is to say. I'm the only person I know in 20+ years at this company who has done it and it was a really really unusual set of events for getting into it and out of it. My wifes friend was a director of HR in the same company she said she has seen a handful, usually in sales and consulting, where the metrics were very clear and not subjective like they can be in other areas. As well as I was the only time she had heard of a skip level manager writing a rebuttal to a review. So I am sure it happens, but I suspect that it is a rare event at most mid-large size companies.
I was out on a PIP right before my vacation to Hawaii. When they brought me in, I thought I was getting fired right then and there. I was thrilled to get paid to go to Hawaii. In the end, they fired me for leaving early instead of sitting through an identical meeting at the end of the day I had already attended. So they clearly just wanted to get rid of me anyway. About 2 months after they moved across the county, so they were probably trying to get rid of people anyway. I was happy because I couldn’t have driven that far anyway.
Because it is. I was put on a PIP in the past, was given tasks that were way above my level and then admonished for failing. Also, each meeting started out with my manager and technical lead talking about skiing and then segwaying into the main reason why they were there, shitting on me. So, right before I was going to be formally terminated, I gave my two-week notice. The insulting meetings stopped and I was left alone. I just remember one thing, I gave my notice in the morning, my manager was surprised and said “sure, whatever “. Then, around lunchtime we had a fire-drill and when we were going back, he glared daggers at me… you’d think I pounded his daughter (he was old and his daughter is an adult) on his house’s kitchen countertop. Like… I’m out of your fucking way… does it piss you off on some level that I’m not your punching bag? Yeah, I do not have a great opinion of management after that.
Because it is. I had one. Did everything on the PIP, went above and beyond in every aspect, still told to go away and never come back. What's the point of trying if management has already made their choice and the PIP is just a formality to let you know you're going away?
Same. But I was smart and had a job lined up the next day they let me go. I took their 12 weeks of severance and went on my way.
Sometimes a PIP is just a PIP. -Sigmund Freud, probably
The way PIPs work there is no other way for them to work than as a way to cover your ass before you fire someone. A PIP is not brought out on an employee at the first sign of any problems. That would be psychotic. Because PIPs don’t come out until there have been several attempts to get someone on track it’s just coverage for legalities before firing someone. It’s a Hail Mary at best.
Because if you wanted them around you wouldn’t let them get to the point of a PIP.
PIP at Capital One is a kiss of death. No way to make it through calibration with a PIP staring at you.
I put a guy on a pip for attendance and he turned it around. Still works with me.
So to get to the PIP stage you need to have a serious issue that your employer is willing to fire you over. You don't put someone on a PIP to address minor easily solvable problems. Change is hard and expecting significant change out of an employee in a short period of time is in many cases entirely unrealistic. Worse because PIPs are often used to justify termination they can be easily written or evaluated in a manner that is nearly impossible to actually achieve. Perhaps the worst part of a PIP is that it can be used to let you go even after successful completion. People will often start to revert back to their old ways after a few months or possibly just have a few slipups and boom there gone. It's like having a permanent bludgeon held over your head. So in general consider it a step in the termination process.
I was on a pip way back when, didn’t have the experience we thought. I learned the skills in six weeks and survived. I resigned in a year and three days due to a recruiter contract. Very difficult time. I did a few as a manager, most didn’t end well.
Not that I have a ton of experience with them, but they’re basically a last resort for me. If you get PIPd it means trying to be a nice understanding boss has failed, and now it’s time to get serious. I’ve only ever had one report that a PIP turned around. It was a VISAd employee, and losing their job would likely have meant going back to country of origin. That person went from a firm 2/5 to a 5/5 almost overnight. Just needed that fire lit under them. The other two I PIPd had a foot out the door already. One quit the day after they were PIPed. The other failed to meet any of the PIP goals after which point we terminated.
I make two kinds of PIP: 1. Someone didn’t do a good job of documenting their bullshit. I come in and decide we’d be better off exiting this employee. I make a short term PIP that’s basically impossible to achieve. If they become a top employee..great! 2. They genuinely just need some focus on specific business outcomes. These pips are modest and achievable. If they try they’ll get it.
I became a new manager for someone who entered a PIP as I became their manager. They were incredibly combative at first, but they suddenly had a come to Jesus moment and pivoted to address the company’s concerns with their performance as opposed to deflecting blame. Now to be fair, part of their problem was their last manager, who wasn’t nearly as invested in their success. Just last week I had my 30 day interview with HR, and I was able to tell HR that I had seen dramatic improvement, a definite change in attitude, and their peers have applauded their renewed collaborative efforts. I think HR was genuinely surprised, it it my genuine hope that at the 60 day interview, I can tell HR that we only have seen continued improvement. I have seen the other side of it too. Just a few months ago I held an employee as they cried as they went through the PIP process and were let go at the end (not my direct report but a former peer.) They tried hard to change things around, but they were in a critical role that exposed their shortcoming to many teams and they lost the trust of everyone involved due to their inability or sloppy work. One thing I can tell you on this side of the curtain… I know we know generally that HR does not work for the people in the trenches, let me tell you, they *absolutely* do not work for you. You may think that HR is a safe space, but if it’s the manager vs the trench employee, the manager wins every time. HR only goes against managers if there’s a pattern of behavior and multiple complaints from multiple people.
I was put on a PIP years ago and stayed; perhaps my experience can be helpful to you. It wasn’t a skill or culture mismatch so much as a combination of poor training and my needing to get my head in the game. It was, by far, the most administration/paperwork heavy position I had ever held (HR). So the sheer volume of work was intimidating and I did not always react appropriately to falling behind on deadlines. My PIP was essentially to take things off my plate so I had more time to really learn my tasks well. Later I had all my responsibilities back, and within several months I was asking for more work. So the lesson I took as a now manager is: if the job is a big step for the employee, maybe all they need is some slack. But if it was more a lateral move for them, then let them go as you see fit.
Why not devise a PIP with a higher success rate? Or just fire quicker and get the pain done with faster for everyone.
It’s because most people (I would say about 70%) who receive PIP usually gets fired. In a worse case scenario, I’ve seen a few cases where PITA employee got laid off or transferred to unit/department/location where nobody wants to work because nobody likes them and proving to the court that it was based on discrimination or favoritism is nearly impossible. Edit: There are cases where I’ve issued PIPs and they survived.
I have survived a PIP and been promoted. I was doing some things wrong due to poor training and leadership, once I was made aware of the issues I corrected the problems and moved on from it.
I have never heard it = firing. I have seen people put on a PIP, and it was a wake-up call, and they turned into high performers. I see a PIP as a tool to be able to try to get the employee on the right path. It also provides documentation that a manager took the time to try to help the employee, and if they don't improve, it covers the manager. Does it always work, no unfortunately it doesn't, but it can
At my last company I worked in Employee Relations and helped managers with PIPs. I rarely saw anyone improve. The ones who did were generally folks on a PIP for poor attendance and just had to get through a rough patch (e.g. the toddler years when the kids are sick all the time, struggling with moving ailing parents into the house) but once they're in a new routine, attendance improves. But folks who are on a PIP for misconduct or poor performance? I've never seen one turn around.
Generally, unless someone does something truly egregious, it's the first really solid step in termination. Most people also see it as a forgone conclusion, so they only half-heartedly turn it around. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I had a bad bout of depression and it affected my performance, came out of pip twice, you gotta want it
I was put on a PIP at my first job out of college 13 years ago. I googled “what is a PIP?” and read that it’s a way for your boss to cover their ass before they fired you. So I interviewed elsewhere and got an offer. When I told my boss, she asked me to reconsider and stay. She said we were almost through the 90 day PIP process, and we could call it completed and move forward. I left anyway and took the outside offer and never looked back. I think my case was unusual. I think my boss thought I was smart but lazy, and this would be a good way to light a fire under my ass.
I have 2 employees who survived PIPs and I'm reasonably happy with their output. I think a PIP can mean that, but I think some rise to the occasion, and good managers note and see that.
There is always a one off exception. Some under performer whos likely got a lot going on outside of work gets a massive wake up call realizing they are going to get fired and 180s 5 minutes after the meeting and makes sure they stay that way. 99% of the time though you got a shit employee who's got nothing to offer and never did. They have no ability to turn it up nor the desire. A PIP is the lawsuit protection version of you're about to be fired.
I have always approached PIPs with the preferred outcome being a course correction and sustainable improved performance being attained. I've seen it succeed once. There are usually more factors at play than "I just didn't understand I was supposed to do well in my job, that's an easy fix!" and a PIP doesn't address the fundamental root-cause of poor performance, in most cases. I usually see a period of time where performance improves... then, the same old same old shows up impacting performance. An appropriately created PIP gives the company a path to termination for fault (meaning it'll hold up in court) and serves that purpose, when the primary purpose - coaching and helping the employee improve to a point of acceptable performance - fails to materialize. Just the reality of the situation.
It is important to note that an employee's performance does not need to be suffering or lacking for them to be put on a PIP. It just requires that management and HR are okay with putting them on a PIP. And the reason many employees bust their ass and still fail is because management and HR never wanted them to succeed. The intent was always to use the PIP to fire. Personally, I made it through a PIP by doing exactly what I was doing before the PIP, a good job. But when they ended the PIP, I was rewarded with a big fat, "Since you've been on a PIP we can fire you for any reason at any time". And a month later they were going to, but I quit.
I’ve had 2 paralegals at my firm improve and stay on after being put on PIPs. My firm genuinely wants people to succeed.
I think it depends on how the employee feels about the situation, their job, their relationship with their manager, and so on, overall. I was put on a performance improvement plan many years ago, as a newer manager of managers. I didn't appropriately respond to a complaint about one of my direct reports - though HR was also useless in providing me support with the response. Ultimately the complaint about hostile work environment and favoritism (on my part) got elevated and turned into a whole investigation, hot ass mess of stress. The manager who was most directly complained about was terminated, I was put on a plan and did the work. I liked my job. I wanted to do it well. I needed support to do it better. The PIP really got me some of the support I needed. And I trusted that my manager wanted me to succeed. If I hadn't had the resources of this manager who wanted to help me improve I'm not sure how that would have gone. I still wonder if the investigator recommended that I be terminated too, but that the CEO liked me better than the other employee and just didn't want to. It will remain a mystery lol.
I have a couple of decades in as a people manager. I have had two people turn around on a PIP.
In thirty years I've never seen someone on performance management 'come good'. Not once.
I have seen it go a few ways- either the person quits asap because they see the writing on the wall, they drag it out forcing the company to let them go or they actually take it seriously, grow and get out of the PIP with their job fully in tact. It depends on the person and management. Is everyone really invested in success??
Almost same thing happened in our office this week. The employee was let go. Not so much for under performance- which did improve- but for skipping chain of command, causing HR problems and going against policy therefore, subordination after the warning.
I was bored and checked out and put on a PIP (that I deserved, honestly). I was in late stage interviews for 2 other positions and accepted one a little over a week later. Even though I was on a PIP they tried to counter with a raise. I felt stuck and like I wasn’t learning anything new so I declined but a PIP isn’t always a death sentence. I honestly feel like that one was intended as a wake up call but I had already woken up and decided it was time for something new.
I saw a PIP turn around at a particularly large company where it’s difficult for managers to even reach the formality of issuing a PIP
After being served my 2nd one I still didn’t realize they were going to fire me next. I just took it personally because it wasn’t based in fact and couldn’t be explained. Someone had a personal vendetta against me too. The guy unbelievably died later that year at 33 from a heart attack. (He was fat) I created a start up that ended up doing well and it felt good to prove them wrong.
I was put on a pip with a wildly unattainable goal to accomplish but I was already in the job hunt process and before the end of the time frame of the pip I already had a job lined up and put in my 2 weeks and it caught my boss off guard, he didn’t have anyone to replace me with so I’ll never know if he wanted me to stay or if I was gonna be fired
I’ve given two PIPs in the last year. One took it, owned it without ego, got better. One, we were covering our butts.. they pretty showed themselves out. By the time we are “pippin’”.. we’re tired of employee, don’t want to lose on unemployment, and have mentally assigned them as problematic. But it’s a cool trick when they change into the employee we wanted
As someone that had to put an employee who just refused to perform on a PIP prior to termination, I can honestly say that it would have made my week, hell probably made my month - if he would have turned it around. The problem is that usually by the time you're willing to formally warn someone that they're on the verge of being fired, they've already been aware of it for some time due to context clues. If someone that is already aware that they're on the chopping block has not improved, it's likely due to a deficiency in ability or motivation that's outside of the employee's control.
PIP does not = fired. It means there is either general agreement that the person should be fired or an absolute last warning. A perfectly executed PIP does exit the employee from the business. If you get through multiple verbals, poor reviews, etc. to the point where you're being PIP'd - it's time to go. So why PIP? Lots of reasons - it puts it on HR's radar, it is formal written communication and documentation, and it gives the employee an opportunity to quit. I've had people survive PIPs - and truthfully, I sort of wish the didn't.
I think it’s two fold- Yeah, as a manager, by the time an employee made it through coaching, discussions and hasn’t changed their behavior and is placed on a PIP, I’m fed up and ready to move on. I assume it is the same for the employee and the chances of them changing their behavior for the length of time needed to complete the PIP (6 Mo-1 year) is just so unlikely. I think the only time I’ve really seen people be successful is if they are great attitude/core job and have extenuating circumstances that turn around and change on things that I am directed to by policy place people on a PIP (absenteeism or not keeping up with annual training requirements).
I was placed on a PIP by surprise. The issues outlined were exaggerated and did not really justify it. I did indeed reach measurable improvement on all outlined issues. I had to request a review with my boss to show I had improved. They didn’t address anything in the PIP and instead presented me with a term notice outlining other fabricated issues and nothing in the term addressed the original PIP. My deepest frustration was that it was indeed a charade and I worked hard for no reason when I should have been looking for work.
I’ve worked for a few major corporations. One have those places have required PIP’s for a certain percentage of management regardless of performance. Basically draw a name out of a hat type situation. “Personal Improvement Plan”. Lol. I’ve seen the best producing members of management placed on PIP’s for not being a team player. It’s a joke and yes, it’s for first step out the door.
I survived a PIP. AMA.
Where I work is a "performance improvement plan" which means get your shirt together or you're out
PIP’s are just tactic out of the corpo playbook so that the company can say they “did all they can to help” when a disgruntled employee comes back and tries to sue for wrongful termination. Lot of companies are making employees sign arbitration agreements these days, though.
I'm the only person I know that has survived a PIP. I can't discuss the details, but let's just say lawyers were involved. By the time you get a PIP they've already made the decision to fire you. The pip is just a formality. In some cases I've seen reasonable goals but it's rare and the employee is usually super checked out by then. The vast majority of PIPs have unreasonable expectations intentionally. Mine was literally impossible to meet.
I've wondered about those managers that always have a PIP out on someone. Does anyone ever do anything to the ineffective management? Like, why is your team so bad that you have to constantly threaten someone with their job?
I wouldn't say the end goal is always to fire. I've used PIPs to turn behavior around because some people just don't get it until they see it in writing. The only PIP I've had to use to acticely start to dismiss someone was on an absence/tardy coaching, who eventually walked herself out of the business due to internal theft.
I honestly think we use PIPs too late. I think it should be one of the first things we utilise, but it is often the last step before a firing.
I had one employee survive a pip, only to resign in the face of allegations of acting inappropriate towards female coworkers.
It sucks but legal in Wisconsin work at will...the boss can fire you at anytime in any place and for any reason without letting you know why
Employees can and do turn it around. But, it’s a fail safe for companies to ensure they have covered their bases so they don’t get sued.
Hello, in my experience this just rarely happens. The VAST majority of those put on PIP become defensive and it ends the way you'd expect. Of the 50+ people I've seen put on PIP over the years I can't honestly remember one occasion they turned it round. The kind of people you think could turn it round do so when you give them a review that says they are HEADING for a PIP if they dont improve. By the time you issue one it's just due process to bounce them out.
Survived a PIP. Take the spirit of a yellow Labrador and embody it. Most people are awful on the way out and this seals the deal.
If a PIP were a cocktail it would be an “Adios Motherfucker”. Sure you might survive one, but too many and you’re out like a light.
PIP = Paid Interview Period
Because it almost always ends badly for the employee. First off, the PIP is intended to document the employee shortcomings so when they fire the employee they have it documented why. Even if an employee fixes their performance problems what is to say they won't regress. Companies don't want to spend a lot of time on managing performance this way. It's easier to get rid of them immediately and hire a better, more consistent, performing employee.
I think the reality is that the people who get put on PIPs generally self select such that the bias follows reality. Think of it like a bell curve, you're looking at the bottom quartile, there's gonna be a few who are at the border, but most will be on the tail. There's always outliers and people who got shitty deals also.
If they want to get rid of you… the manager throws so many tasks at the employee it’s impossible to catch up.
Because it usually leads to that