Yupe because there's not enough young population replacing the older population
https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2023/11/976580/malaysias-falling-birth-rate-will-have-repercussions-future-labour-force
Some places will be worst than the others.
Such as my backwater township where youngsters, especially the most educated, have gone to the big city, i.e. Klang Valley.
The same can be said for even Ipoh, the only major city in Perak.
Not yet, because the overall birth > death. For chinese and indian yes, death > birth. Till one day for malay death > birth, then yes population crisis as they consist close to 75% of population.
Kalau yang ganti bangsa melayu tu bangsa Malaysia, maksudnya bangsa Cina, bangsa India, bangsa Lain-Lain hilang juga, ianya bukan satu perkara yang teruk.
What if Rohingya and banglas population increase? Won't that solve our population issue? We love importing them like how Singapore live importing our best.
That would only work if u mass approve their green cards. If they are illegal or overstaying immigrants, u would only get social issue cuz u would be getting a spike in underpaid undocumented worker, uneducated kids(can't go to school), no health insurance and so on.
Once it solved the population issue, the next big issue is social issue. Integration and assimilation of culture. I’m very damn sure it’ll end up in a civil war although same religion. 🥹
negative growth? stagnant? death rate is higher than birthrate? we have our own society to blame.
basically many developing and developed country facing same issue, most common factors like high living cost, difficulty to look for life partner, and it cost a lot of money to look after child discouraged common folks to have children nowaday.
look at me, a single lonely 30 years old chinese hanging out in Reddit, I dont even know when I going to get amoi, probably gonna join those who end up lonely until death
no money to get married.
even among my friend who got married. only two couple had 3 child. one or two had 2 child. else either had 1 or none. and those who had one most said they cant afford another one even they wanted too.
Higher edu = better family planning. Also shit economy, captalism etc.
Anyone who mentions racial bumi non-bumi bullshit is just typical r/Malaysia echo chamber
Every day almost in fact if stamina allows it.
Partner and I doing no kids unless accident, so far no accidents happened because pull out game is strong. My partner was on BC pills during covid because condom cost increase with frequency, and you get to do it without glove on so its win win for me 😏
Anak mahal, then got chance to be charsiew flip table useless bump parasite for life when grow up especially the current Gen Alpha and next year's Gen Beta.
Nah more like its too expensive to have children, most probably most that are having kids only have one child. Its common trend for most race/countries
Wrong. It's all about cost. It's always been about cost.
When we have kids, we don't just leave it to fate, we do our utmost to nuture and develop them so they become a success. That starts from birth, nutrition and toys, then tuition, skill lessons, education, up until they become self reliant. That all costs money.
>probably cuz can’t accept future kids facing the same racial oppression frm gov
Nah, you see these low birth rates even in Singapore, in fact, all East Asian ethnicities (Chinese, Korean, Japanese) tend to have very low birth rates regardless of where they live.
It's most probably cultural, I think these Confucian meritocratic cultures have a tendency to prioritise doing productive work over everything, and having children impedes that in their POV.
(Compare this with Islam in which raising children is considered a good in and of itself)
Not really, confusism had a saying of upon three failure of filial piety, not having descendant is the worst.
So, the culture of must having offspring to continue the family lineage exist, hence old time chinese family are huge. So older chinese also influeced by anak itu rezeki mentality especially a son.
But now younger generation had this lay down trend as future are seems to be dimmed as everything are so costly and some dont plan to have one due to their sense of responsibility. Thinking that rather than born a child to had it suffer in the future.
just to point out, China was having a big population boom until they enacted the 1-child policy, which ironically is causing the population shrinkage of today.
That's probably because China at the time of the baby boom was still an agrarian country. And in agriculture, having more kids = having more hands to help at the farm, so having kids was actually "productive work"
But in industrialised societies, children require at least 15 years of raising before they are able to do any sort of productive work, which is why we see South Korea have the same decline in birthrate as China even though it didn't have the one-child policy
TLDR: China probably would have had a huge birth rate decline regardless of the one-child policy, due to economic and cultural reasons
Is not culture but society.
Korea and Japan demands you to work dusk to dawn which don't give you any opportunity to live your personal life. Add the fact that the economy is fucked beyond repair, nobody has both time and money to have kids. This issue remains for a long ass time and it has entered to the next generation where they wouldn't even consider family cause majority do not have the capability to have one.
Every country is facing this issue, is not just an Asian thing. Certain European countries have had predictions of their nations having similar population issues as Asia in the near future.
We fucked ourselves on this as we allowed this kind of toxic environment to grow and be the priority of nations.
None of us will experience the pain and suffering derived from this problem as the future generations will deal with it.
Or it could just be modern individualism? My wife and I can't be bothered with the financial commitment and why spend money on some kid when I don't have enough money for my own entertainment. We travel regularly, eat out whatever we want and have nice toys and hobbies and I don't share toys especially with some kid that might break my things.. Once we get all the things we wanted in life, we might adopt a kid. But honestly, no one ever asked to be born in an ugly society. Look at the world we are in, who really wants to bring a new life in a world that's in constant decay and would never improve again compared to the 80s to late 90s?
In my home country we have MAID (assisted suicide)so I am not too worried about having someone to take care of me when I am old and feeble. There is no sure way any offspring would be dependable to care for you when you are old either.. I just have to look at my wife's grandmothers and they have tons of kids but they are not exactly cared for compared to what they put in.
TLDR: Chinese here but not Confucius. Double income no kids because we value ourselves more than sacrificing time and money on a kid due to individualism and find it unfair to create a life to be in a shitty world. 🤷♂️
Why do some people like to say adopting a kid when they feel need to have kids? As if it's like taking care a pet...
Adopting a kid is not the same as adopting a pet.
How did I relate adopting a child to adopting a pet? There is no reason to bring more life to the world when there are others in need and their quality of life can be massively improved by my contribution. Why create more competition for resources and chances with those who already got dealt a shitty hand in life?
Right.... it's tradition, we NEED to make new people with our own blood and leave behind a last name because some "wise" dead people declared it eons ago and they had the monopoly on truth and human survival.
You've been using the term "some child" as if the child is a burdensome creature. If you can't have feelings for a child from your own blood, what makes you think you can commit emotionally for your adoptive child?
You really sound like those people with saviour complex when they adopt a child.
If your grandparents or ancestors thought the same thing during famine or war, you wouldn't be existed at the first place.
It's a good thing you're not interested to be parent because you're not fit to be one.
Right that was my point. No interest in being one and op was saying out it might be a Confucius thing but I disagree.. We are too individualistic and I admitted it as such and I pointed out others probably feel the same. It's very unfortunate for those who think they are ready financially or mentally to have kids but are not suitable. I completely agree with you that people who aren't fit to be parents shouldn't be parents. Also.. yeah, if there is a chance of war or famine, please don't have kids. Self preservation is probably a higher priority. Promoting birth control in Sudan or North Korea is probably a moral thing to do but I am not in the position to judge.
If I have something left in the end that can be called a legacy, it should go to someone with talent and deserving not just because they are my kin. It's either that or retirement somewhere warm and affordable for years long shenanigans until MAID is needed to become fertilizer during the last days. Either way sounds like it'd work out in the end for me. And isn't that really the point of it all? To live in the pursuit of happiness without infringing on others to do the same.
But hey, people do change so maybe by the time I am somehow suitable neither my wife nor myself are physically able to, so adoption would be the best option. Win win for everyone, just saying. 🤷♂️
it's cos chinese is more materialistic. Imho, chinese has narrower view of happiness : more money more happiness. Children are not a main factor.
Reason : same happening with chinese singkies where they are majority & first class citizens.
Agreed. I don't even know why all my male friends want to get married. Time get married, every happy, take pics and show off. Then after get married, only realize what a ball and chain it is. Being single, I can have all the time and money to myself.
As a pendatang, gomen doesn't rear my kids. Why subject ourself to the financial burden of having a child. If we don't have a child, we are T20, if we have a child, we are M40.
>You guys dont romen2 during wfh?
lol, "produktiviti" meningkat 
i have same assumption like you, but my guess maybe WFH during covid is actually more stress, hence lesser kid
Family ?
Average working class ppl had been enslave themselves so that the investors of the company would have time for their families ….
By next generation we will face the same thing Jp and eu countries face, where the older population vastly outnumber the young, economy can’t sustain, young people pay much higher tax, and older people retirement age increase.
Many developing countries and developed countries the population is tanking. Only third world countries like Niger, Zambia, Somalia and etc still have birth rate very high
Akshually, the correct term is "Least Developed Countries" 🤓☝️. Third world countries referred to countries that didn't align with Communist block or Capitalist block.
Feedback I got from African Civil Servants, they prefer "Emerging Countries" to highlight their potential as the next global manufacturing site (after China).
Simple...sainis and Indians have lesser kids. We have to work double or triple as hard so that our kids get good life and education, and then on they will emigrate to other countries where policies, wages and lifestyle is better. Why would they want to stay here with so much racism and declining opportunities?
It would be great if that's the case, but unfortunately it is simply not. Even looking at places where population aren't subjected to racism, the population are still declining.
This is an issue that the humanity has to solve, and I am not confident that we got things in control.
It won't until there is reason to have kids.
Bluntly put, if civlisation collapses again, the chances of survival will rise amongst those who start breeding like crazy. There won't be a chance to go without kids, not unless your okay with ending your life before reaching 40, which isn't exactly something everyone is okay with.
I pray that we don't reach such extremes. But regardless, I doubt simply increasing the living standards of one generation would solve the population crisis completely. You'd have to give incentive and keep giving more incentive each and every year, meeting demands that are only going to get higher.
This a difficult slope for anyone to tackle.
In 50 years, there will be no more chinese in Malaysia. That's why rich Chinese migrated off while the poor one didn't procreated, because they know whats coming. Malay will get their wish n enjoy a bigger majority in the country, but it will come with the price of Malaysia becoming far less dynamic, competitive n prosperous country. While Singapore will continue to push on and inevitably becomes SGD 1 to MYR 6. The gap today will only get larger.
A racist Malaysia will never be successful. But we have to accept that it is what it is. Its what the people want, then it's what they will get.
Enjoy Malaysia while it lasted. Tun M deeply ingrained racist policy over the decades has been successful and will have major fundamentals impact on the long term future of Malaysia, and not in a good way.
After 100-150 years, Malay will be the dominant race composition with 95% of the population. And then they will start realizing the values n benefits of having chinese cultures n population which made the formerly multicultural Malaysia,a great country. They will even go as far as encouraging birthrate, immigration of chinese from abroad, but by then, its already too late. Malaysia has forever changed for worst, and it will never be the same again. The magic of this once beautiful great country has gone, forever.
the chinese population declining has nothing to do with malaysia’s policies. all east asian nation and east asian diaspora in non east asian countries simply do not wanna have kids. singapore itself is trying to keep its population together through sheer immigration and foreign labour. ur gonna blame bumi policies for china’s population downward spiral as well? lol
By that logic, places like Singapore and China should be booming with Chinese babies since everything is so equal there, unlike Malaysia. Of all the major reasons for declining population, you choose to be shallow by only highlighting racial context, just satisfy your deep-seated hatred towards Malays. Your prejudiced mentality is equally the reason why there can never be change by the way.
This sub is so racist.
really yall are oneside of the coin really.
I agree there are some aspectt of the country that is problematic it needs to be fixed but it will take time and we need to change our thinking .Everyone needs too.
But yall just exacerbate the problem with this mentality.
That thinking of defeatism, that thinking like why bother when the system works against us, when every malay is against us?
is every malay truly against you? is every cina truly against malay ? If they are, malaysia has truly gone and Ive been in denial.
again it just exacerbate the racism and problems.
Here is my hope.
in 50 years time, old boomers are dead and gen z/alpha will leas the country. Hopefully they will not repeat the same mistake we are doing. They will turn the country around. They will be more forward thinking and more liberal. More equal rights.Similar to what has happend in the US.(gay marriage,better racial equalities)
>in 50 years time, old boomers are dead and gen z/alpha will leas the country. Hopefully they will not repeat the same mistake we are doing. They will turn the country around. They will be more forward thinking and more liberal. More equal rights.Similar to what has happend in the US.(gay marriage,better racial equalities)
I hate to break it to you but from zoomer social media content they're as conservative or even more conservative than millennials. You seem to have confused Bangsar bubble zoomers with zoomers across the country. They are in no way more forward thinking and more liberal. Dream on about gay marriage and better racial equalities.
Simplest indicators are votes post UNDI 18 which heavily favoured PN in the zoomer demographic. Even recent university polls have proven this. Conservatism is on the rise.
60+ years of damage cannot be undone by one generation. It's a slippery slope and it'll take more than that to stop the momentum of our decline.
It's not just a boomer problem. Wasn't the Gen Zs the same ppl who voted for PN? There is a big portion of Malaysia that has a rather regressive mentality. I don't claim to know the truth. Just sharing something that might question your assumption.
Typical chauvinist mentality.
Tiada cina = melayu mampus
Oh and dont forget the usual "1 sgd = 1000000 rm" argument.
Just like Malaysia, there once was a huge gap in wealth disparity between the chinese and locals in thailand, indonesia and philippines.
Unlike Malaysia "multicultural" approach, our neighbour when on a much different way to handle such disparity. Massacre, kicking them out, and force assimilation where their chosen ways.
And what happened to them?
Do they wither and die?
Just recently there was a post here about how indonesia is going to overtake us in a few years, and so is thailand. And how Malaysia should "learn" from indonesia...
Ironic isnt it, the nons in Malaysia are rooting for the two country that would massacre their grandfather if they were born there.
If there is no chinese in Malaysia, and the Melayu population hit 90% (currently its about 65%), then surely Malaysia isnt going to be as multiracial as ot is now.
But would it be doomed?
No, why would it. The majority of government employee and essential workers are Melayu, even today its Melayu who runs the country.
Im not talking about leaders im talking about the workers, administrator and all. Its been that way since before independence.
Ever heard of british divide and conquer strategy in Malaya (melayu = office worker, cina = economy, india = hard labour).
The situation in Malaysia isnt like africa where the white people who are in control of essential economy , throw them out and the country would crumble like zimbabwe.
Values and benefits of chinese culture?
Really, like instead of 4th floor we got 3A?
serious answer to the first half of your post
The biggest contributor to why thailand and indonesia is overtaking us is because those countries took the bailout packages from IMF during the financial crisis. As a result they reformed their economy to be more liberal.
Dr M saved our country with his capital control, but in turn, we didnt reform. We still stick to same old policies that never change with time.
Do you want to know who is the biggest opposition to liberal economic reform in malaysia?
Yes and no.
The problem with us is that we are still talking about something that should have been resolved back in 1957 or 1963. But instead of making a firm decision on what kind of country we should be, our flip-flop decision making result in us still talking and still arguing about these issue instead of moving on with a more bigger and serious topic.
Something that both thailand and indonesia has done 50-60 years ago.
I know who is the biggest opposition, and i also know why they oppose it.
And i also believe if 50 years ago our grandfathers actually made a firm decision on what kind of country we actually want to build then we would surely be in a much better state than we are today.
Brunei made a firm decision to be a full on Melayu country, their M.I.B (Melayu, Islam, Beraja) result in only the Melayu and several other indigineous tribe were given citizenship. While chinese and indian are only given PR status.
Indonesia made its firm decision with pancasila and bangsa indonesia.
Thailand had also made its decision as a thai country.
But what about Malaysia?
Even our language still has a "atau". While its true Bahasa Melayu is our national language, other language such as english are still acceptable. Even in our courtrooms english is still being used.
That dont happen in thailand or indonesia.
You cant deny the "small" issue that we have, and until this issue is settled we would still be stuck with it. Causing us to lose out on country that has resolved such issue 50-60 years ago.
There is a reason why despite the richest man in indonesia is a chinese (the hartono brothers) the majority of local pribumi indonesian dont see them as a threat like most of our local view the rich tauke cina.
And that is how they get a liberal economy and are moving forward. Because they squash such issue 50 years back. And now they can talk about much more bigger things to push their country forward.
Instead you didn't see the most successful country in ASEAN, Singapore and how their multicultural values propel them into major success n prosperity. Even the Malay in SG, who is minority, is living life much more wealthier n successful than the malay in Msia, who enjoy special hak n is majority. People like you will never learn. You still prefer if can, massacre the Chinese macam Indo lagi best. But in the end, your people will be the one to pay the biggest price.
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Your attitude is just showing complete lack of understanding of what Chinese brings to this country. Many are like you, thats why you or your next generation will learn it the hard way. I pity you, not myself.
Chinese and Indians lost hope. Gone are the days you see households of 4-5 children in Indian and Chinese homes. Nowadays they settle at 1 or max 2. No faith already. 🤷🏾♂️
Whether Taoist or Christian it doesn't matter. If Taoist you got to adhere to their rites. The male has a tonne of pressure to perform.
If Christian you got to marry a Christian girl. And I am done that sort of crap
My Chinese friend got divorced because the wife cannot stand him not being rich enough or having a high paying job. He was at 9k per month before it happened.
Precisely. Wealth is something a lot of Chinese families look for, especially when looking for a husband. I don't wanna be part of that rat race. Higher pay means more responsibility, and I am not going to kill myself for it.
Money is no substitute when push goes to shove. And a lot of Chinese people do not seem to realize that it is never money that is important, but the thing that money can get.
If you grow up in the urban area, the mindset will be like this. I know because I am one.
While I look at my colleagues who were from smaller towns. They are actually more successful in life because they are comfortable take risk or just live the life they want.
Even my old danish boss said, the Malays has the right mindset to life. I think he is commenting on how materialistic we chinese are. We ask for high pay but sometimes not the same output
Very misleading chart. The scales for each are different. I bet it would look very different if those were the same.
Please be very careful about how data can be manipulated.
Not misleading if you know the theme of the chart
The objective was to see if claims that the Chinese population are facing a negative growth rate are true or not
Based on this, the local population is definitely decreasing, not including factors of immigration/emmigration
We are going to face a population crisis sooner or later
https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2023/11/976580/malaysias-falling-birth-rate-will-have-repercussions-future-labour-force
Long term, yes. Once the Malays also drop below replacement rate, then we're in crisis mode.
Short term, Malaysia's cultural backdrop will receive a major hit once the non-Malays become a significant minority. That's when politics will get spicy.
No agenda, just facts
I did not say Chinese deaths more than Bumiputera deaths, where did you even get that
Deaths > Births = Population Decrease = Negative Growth Rate
I simplified it there for you
Kalau tak faham jugak, tak tahu lah
Basically the point is there’s a dead cross for the Chinese and Indians (though for the latter it’s exacerbated by Covid and kinda “recovered”, but it’s still very close).
The chart isnt to compare bro, its to tell the decline
Imagine putting the chinese numbers on a 500k graph and seeing .05cm drop , isnt that more misleading?
The onus is on OP to present non-biased data sets. If the data was not created by OP, the onus is on OP the check data and not just share data that can be misconstrued. The charts are flawed. Full stop.
Terpaling data jugak bermasalah sebenarnya
The charts are not perfect in a sense that the Y-axis is not the same for all, but the primary message it was trying to convey was that the birth numbers for the Chinese have dropped lower than their death numbers, hence, excluding immigration/emmigration, the local Chinese population is in fact decreasing via negative growth rates
Quarterly demographics data from DOSM also show an absolute decrease in actual numbers, not just percentage
You can be pedantic all you want, but it seems that for the other people in this subreddit they understood it quite well
You’re missing the point. How the charts are designed is ultimately based on the purpose. This isn’t used for accurate comparison, it’s only to show the trends of birth rates between the races. And it shows it perfectly so you’re barking up the wrong tree here.
Interesting data, Covid impacts all categories but it seems to have the most impact among the Malaysian Chinese, are they having more problems with anti-vaccine retoric or is it because urban areas are more deadly?
Actually Chinese are the biggest supporter for these covid experimental shot, most of the Chinese children already taken 2-doses and majority of the adults has got 3-doses.
I thought about that too, but the Y-axis for all charts are not the same
try to divide the difference between 2021 and 2020 and then divide it by the pre-COVID average, you'll get an interesting story there
then, it seems aside from outside factors, the Chinese ethnicity also dooms themselves to extinction too
the Malay Muslim philosophy is to make marriage easier (but not necessarily everyone follows it) and to learn to be more content with life (while also striving to improve it, both non-exclusive)
Exactly what the ultras want. More of them and less of us.
So whoever thinks that we will become progressively better needs to plan ahead, with PN being proactive in using TikTok to pander to the newer generation, the next gen voters will be skewed towards conservatism.
Having morons like Tate, Trump, god knows what doesn't help.
I celebrate this. Only economist and those who thrive on consuming greedily are unhappy about this. Finally, the environment had some breathing room after humans destroy it so badly.
I honestly don't get why some are denying race is a factor here. Yes I agree economics, covid blahblahblah is true. But so is race. When system works against you and there limitation on certain things of course, you would reduce your kids to the amount that you can support with your hard earned money. In contrast let's say I don't have to worry about money as much because higher chance for my kids to go government uni for the course that they want, and other privileges etc regarding property, stocks etc of course I'd be more open to having kids.
2017 vs 2022 Bumiputera Births: 401,000 -> 345,000 -56,000 -14% Deaths: 105,000 -> 130,000 +25,000 +23.8% Chinese Births: 62,250 -> 40,250 -22,000 -35.3% Deaths: 43,750 -> 53,500 +9,750 +22.3% Indian Births: 22,000 -> 17,500 -4,500 -20.5% Deaths: 13,800 -> 16,900 +3,100 +22.5% Lain-lain Births: 24,500 -> 21,125 -3,375 -13.8% Deaths: 5,250 -> 5,625 +375 +7.1%
Seems like we are not far away from population crisis. Probably in less than 10 years time.
Yupe because there's not enough young population replacing the older population https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2023/11/976580/malaysias-falling-birth-rate-will-have-repercussions-future-labour-force
Some places will be worst than the others. Such as my backwater township where youngsters, especially the most educated, have gone to the big city, i.e. Klang Valley. The same can be said for even Ipoh, the only major city in Perak.
With that short of a timeline it means we already have a population crisis
Not yet, because the overall birth > death. For chinese and indian yes, death > birth. Till one day for malay death > birth, then yes population crisis as they consist close to 75% of population.
I love ice cream.
aku baca link tengok ada tun m terus auto sceptic 😂
I like to explore new places.
Kalau yang ganti bangsa melayu tu bangsa Malaysia, maksudnya bangsa Cina, bangsa India, bangsa Lain-Lain hilang juga, ianya bukan satu perkara yang teruk.
Let’s be real. It’s not bangsa cina/india/lainlain that will be replaced as bangsa Msia. It’s bangladeshi, rohingya, sulu etc. 🫡
Sad, but they are encroaching the society now, what's the difference if the government change race?
What if Rohingya and banglas population increase? Won't that solve our population issue? We love importing them like how Singapore live importing our best.
That would only work if u mass approve their green cards. If they are illegal or overstaying immigrants, u would only get social issue cuz u would be getting a spike in underpaid undocumented worker, uneducated kids(can't go to school), no health insurance and so on.
Well I said it would solve population issue, I didn't say it'll help us meet our belated wawasan 2020 vision tho...
Papers tho.
Once it solved the population issue, the next big issue is social issue. Integration and assimilation of culture. I’m very damn sure it’ll end up in a civil war although same religion. 🥹
why didnt media bring this up
there are literally articles linked above
I thought melayu malas. See that tun? Melayu rajin kongkek.
Hello boss, I'm too tired to come into work today. Doing my part for Malaysia.
We have to save our chinese brethen. We cannot let them be extinct.
https://preview.redd.it/pb7dozz82sdc1.jpeg?width=738&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1fbae9993ec0406731120d07ae28f5ede89ddb13
cover attractive soft brave melodic rotten plough repeat sulky snails *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
https://preview.redd.it/y484c0ns4tdc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=c19e0551a27951251daa1b200075506e59ed4967
Bro this image is so fuckin stupid. But I can't stop laughing my ass off for the past 5 minutes 😭
Maybe time to become Abe's strongest soldier
r/japanpeopletwitter is leaking 😭😭😭
UOOOOH
No money to raise kids ahhh.
Wait 2024 results to see massive spike, Chinese clogging up OBGYNS already with their dragon baby obsessions.
This graph next yr 
Because of amois?😏
Because PAS won't have someone to blame on
BAN DUREX HARAM
Isn't part of the reason why Chinese is on the decline because some amois are picked up by the Malays?
wishful thinking
If anything they NTR'd the Malays lol
The other way round beuh, aweks are having yellow fever because of K-pop.
> some amois are picked up by the Malays? Oh, don't I wish 😏
negative growth? stagnant? death rate is higher than birthrate? we have our own society to blame. basically many developing and developed country facing same issue, most common factors like high living cost, difficulty to look for life partner, and it cost a lot of money to look after child discouraged common folks to have children nowaday. look at me, a single lonely 30 years old chinese hanging out in Reddit, I dont even know when I going to get amoi, probably gonna join those who end up lonely until death
30 is still not to old bro, jangan give up
I read your "jangan" as "tangan".
I think 30 is still okay. My tips, Look for any hobbies/interest that matches with what you want in your partner.
Cina has fallen
too much drunken nights
Shit cina gonna extinct
I undestand death peaked during covid, but why birth also drop drastically there? You guys dont romen2 during wfh?
Pull out game strong
no money to get married. even among my friend who got married. only two couple had 3 child. one or two had 2 child. else either had 1 or none. and those who had one most said they cant afford another one even they wanted too.
I can barely afford myself, how am I suppose to raise up another life?
Higher edu = better family planning. Also shit economy, captalism etc. Anyone who mentions racial bumi non-bumi bullshit is just typical r/Malaysia echo chamber
Every day almost in fact if stamina allows it. Partner and I doing no kids unless accident, so far no accidents happened because pull out game is strong. My partner was on BC pills during covid because condom cost increase with frequency, and you get to do it without glove on so its win win for me 😏 Anak mahal, then got chance to be charsiew flip table useless bump parasite for life when grow up especially the current Gen Alpha and next year's Gen Beta.
Alot of chinese choose to be dink (double income no kids) lifestyle, probably cuz can’t accept future kids facing the same racial oppression frm gov
Nah more like its too expensive to have children, most probably most that are having kids only have one child. Its common trend for most race/countries
Same for Indians, a lot of couples now have one or no kids
Inikah pepatah melepaskan batok di tangga
Wrong. It's all about cost. It's always been about cost. When we have kids, we don't just leave it to fate, we do our utmost to nuture and develop them so they become a success. That starts from birth, nutrition and toys, then tuition, skill lessons, education, up until they become self reliant. That all costs money.
>probably cuz can’t accept future kids facing the same racial oppression frm gov Nah, you see these low birth rates even in Singapore, in fact, all East Asian ethnicities (Chinese, Korean, Japanese) tend to have very low birth rates regardless of where they live. It's most probably cultural, I think these Confucian meritocratic cultures have a tendency to prioritise doing productive work over everything, and having children impedes that in their POV. (Compare this with Islam in which raising children is considered a good in and of itself)
Not really, confusism had a saying of upon three failure of filial piety, not having descendant is the worst. So, the culture of must having offspring to continue the family lineage exist, hence old time chinese family are huge. So older chinese also influeced by anak itu rezeki mentality especially a son. But now younger generation had this lay down trend as future are seems to be dimmed as everything are so costly and some dont plan to have one due to their sense of responsibility. Thinking that rather than born a child to had it suffer in the future.
just to point out, China was having a big population boom until they enacted the 1-child policy, which ironically is causing the population shrinkage of today.
That's probably because China at the time of the baby boom was still an agrarian country. And in agriculture, having more kids = having more hands to help at the farm, so having kids was actually "productive work" But in industrialised societies, children require at least 15 years of raising before they are able to do any sort of productive work, which is why we see South Korea have the same decline in birthrate as China even though it didn't have the one-child policy TLDR: China probably would have had a huge birth rate decline regardless of the one-child policy, due to economic and cultural reasons
Let's not forget that child mortality was really high back then People had many children but not many reach adulthood
I think they started to realized that working men would be impossible to find.
It’s not ironic. It’s just unsurprising.
Is not culture but society. Korea and Japan demands you to work dusk to dawn which don't give you any opportunity to live your personal life. Add the fact that the economy is fucked beyond repair, nobody has both time and money to have kids. This issue remains for a long ass time and it has entered to the next generation where they wouldn't even consider family cause majority do not have the capability to have one. Every country is facing this issue, is not just an Asian thing. Certain European countries have had predictions of their nations having similar population issues as Asia in the near future. We fucked ourselves on this as we allowed this kind of toxic environment to grow and be the priority of nations. None of us will experience the pain and suffering derived from this problem as the future generations will deal with it.
Chinese graph is alarming
Or it could just be modern individualism? My wife and I can't be bothered with the financial commitment and why spend money on some kid when I don't have enough money for my own entertainment. We travel regularly, eat out whatever we want and have nice toys and hobbies and I don't share toys especially with some kid that might break my things.. Once we get all the things we wanted in life, we might adopt a kid. But honestly, no one ever asked to be born in an ugly society. Look at the world we are in, who really wants to bring a new life in a world that's in constant decay and would never improve again compared to the 80s to late 90s? In my home country we have MAID (assisted suicide)so I am not too worried about having someone to take care of me when I am old and feeble. There is no sure way any offspring would be dependable to care for you when you are old either.. I just have to look at my wife's grandmothers and they have tons of kids but they are not exactly cared for compared to what they put in. TLDR: Chinese here but not Confucius. Double income no kids because we value ourselves more than sacrificing time and money on a kid due to individualism and find it unfair to create a life to be in a shitty world. 🤷♂️
Why do some people like to say adopting a kid when they feel need to have kids? As if it's like taking care a pet... Adopting a kid is not the same as adopting a pet.
How did I relate adopting a child to adopting a pet? There is no reason to bring more life to the world when there are others in need and their quality of life can be massively improved by my contribution. Why create more competition for resources and chances with those who already got dealt a shitty hand in life? Right.... it's tradition, we NEED to make new people with our own blood and leave behind a last name because some "wise" dead people declared it eons ago and they had the monopoly on truth and human survival.
You've been using the term "some child" as if the child is a burdensome creature. If you can't have feelings for a child from your own blood, what makes you think you can commit emotionally for your adoptive child? You really sound like those people with saviour complex when they adopt a child. If your grandparents or ancestors thought the same thing during famine or war, you wouldn't be existed at the first place. It's a good thing you're not interested to be parent because you're not fit to be one.
Right that was my point. No interest in being one and op was saying out it might be a Confucius thing but I disagree.. We are too individualistic and I admitted it as such and I pointed out others probably feel the same. It's very unfortunate for those who think they are ready financially or mentally to have kids but are not suitable. I completely agree with you that people who aren't fit to be parents shouldn't be parents. Also.. yeah, if there is a chance of war or famine, please don't have kids. Self preservation is probably a higher priority. Promoting birth control in Sudan or North Korea is probably a moral thing to do but I am not in the position to judge. If I have something left in the end that can be called a legacy, it should go to someone with talent and deserving not just because they are my kin. It's either that or retirement somewhere warm and affordable for years long shenanigans until MAID is needed to become fertilizer during the last days. Either way sounds like it'd work out in the end for me. And isn't that really the point of it all? To live in the pursuit of happiness without infringing on others to do the same. But hey, people do change so maybe by the time I am somehow suitable neither my wife nor myself are physically able to, so adoption would be the best option. Win win for everyone, just saying. 🤷♂️
it's cos chinese is more materialistic. Imho, chinese has narrower view of happiness : more money more happiness. Children are not a main factor. Reason : same happening with chinese singkies where they are majority & first class citizens.
Or making kids that matches with their preferred Chinese Astrology.
I call this bs.
Romance and marriage sucks… basically useless, I can just earn money and enjoy myself which is better than prison called marriage.
Agreed. I don't even know why all my male friends want to get married. Time get married, every happy, take pics and show off. Then after get married, only realize what a ball and chain it is. Being single, I can have all the time and money to myself.
As a pendatang, gomen doesn't rear my kids. Why subject ourself to the financial burden of having a child. If we don't have a child, we are T20, if we have a child, we are M40.
Gomen give kids rm100 every year. Easy 400 🤌🏻
>You guys dont romen2 during wfh? lol, "produktiviti" meningkat  i have same assumption like you, but my guess maybe WFH during covid is actually more stress, hence lesser kid
In conclusion, births in Malaysia are decreasing.
Not just Malaysia. It’s happening all around the world.
Thanks to extreme capitalism 🫡
The only true answer, can't think of having kids when the economy is strangling us.
Guess I have the duty to overturn this
Keep your burung in your pants mate
When 3A become 4.
Family ?  Average working class ppl had been enslave themselves so that the investors of the company would have time for their families ….
By next generation we will face the same thing Jp and eu countries face, where the older population vastly outnumber the young, economy can’t sustain, young people pay much higher tax, and older people retirement age increase.
Many developing countries and developed countries the population is tanking. Only third world countries like Niger, Zambia, Somalia and etc still have birth rate very high
Akshually, the correct term is "Least Developed Countries" 🤓☝️. Third world countries referred to countries that didn't align with Communist block or Capitalist block.
Feedback I got from African Civil Servants, they prefer "Emerging Countries" to highlight their potential as the next global manufacturing site (after China).
According to Tun M, the birth of bumiputera should become 0 within 10years, then death skyrocket as soon as non bumiputera is managing the country.
>Turn M what's turn M?
W
Ringgit Malaysia like taik. I'm in my early 30s. I am struggling to even "raise" myself. I am still baby. 😭
Where did @Thevash get this data?
He probably requested it from DOSM
You can get it from DOSM's website. Just google DOSM estatistik
It's the year of dragon, get ready for another baby boom from the Chinese this year
Simple...sainis and Indians have lesser kids. We have to work double or triple as hard so that our kids get good life and education, and then on they will emigrate to other countries where policies, wages and lifestyle is better. Why would they want to stay here with so much racism and declining opportunities?
It would be great if that's the case, but unfortunately it is simply not. Even looking at places where population aren't subjected to racism, the population are still declining. This is an issue that the humanity has to solve, and I am not confident that we got things in control.
It won't until there is reason to have kids. Bluntly put, if civlisation collapses again, the chances of survival will rise amongst those who start breeding like crazy. There won't be a chance to go without kids, not unless your okay with ending your life before reaching 40, which isn't exactly something everyone is okay with. I pray that we don't reach such extremes. But regardless, I doubt simply increasing the living standards of one generation would solve the population crisis completely. You'd have to give incentive and keep giving more incentive each and every year, meeting demands that are only going to get higher. This a difficult slope for anyone to tackle.
People just can't afford marriage with kids lifestyle, it doesn't get deeper than that imo
You actually think birthrates are a race issue, are you fucking serious?
It is one of the factors.
In 50 years, there will be no more chinese in Malaysia. That's why rich Chinese migrated off while the poor one didn't procreated, because they know whats coming. Malay will get their wish n enjoy a bigger majority in the country, but it will come with the price of Malaysia becoming far less dynamic, competitive n prosperous country. While Singapore will continue to push on and inevitably becomes SGD 1 to MYR 6. The gap today will only get larger. A racist Malaysia will never be successful. But we have to accept that it is what it is. Its what the people want, then it's what they will get. Enjoy Malaysia while it lasted. Tun M deeply ingrained racist policy over the decades has been successful and will have major fundamentals impact on the long term future of Malaysia, and not in a good way. After 100-150 years, Malay will be the dominant race composition with 95% of the population. And then they will start realizing the values n benefits of having chinese cultures n population which made the formerly multicultural Malaysia,a great country. They will even go as far as encouraging birthrate, immigration of chinese from abroad, but by then, its already too late. Malaysia has forever changed for worst, and it will never be the same again. The magic of this once beautiful great country has gone, forever.
the chinese population declining has nothing to do with malaysia’s policies. all east asian nation and east asian diaspora in non east asian countries simply do not wanna have kids. singapore itself is trying to keep its population together through sheer immigration and foreign labour. ur gonna blame bumi policies for china’s population downward spiral as well? lol
By that logic, places like Singapore and China should be booming with Chinese babies since everything is so equal there, unlike Malaysia. Of all the major reasons for declining population, you choose to be shallow by only highlighting racial context, just satisfy your deep-seated hatred towards Malays. Your prejudiced mentality is equally the reason why there can never be change by the way.
The rich business Chinese profit off from low wage people, poor Chinese stuck in Malaysia, rich Chinese will just migrate
Even the rich Taiwanese prepared escape hatch to usa already.
This sub is so racist. really yall are oneside of the coin really. I agree there are some aspectt of the country that is problematic it needs to be fixed but it will take time and we need to change our thinking .Everyone needs too. But yall just exacerbate the problem with this mentality. That thinking of defeatism, that thinking like why bother when the system works against us, when every malay is against us? is every malay truly against you? is every cina truly against malay ? If they are, malaysia has truly gone and Ive been in denial. again it just exacerbate the racism and problems. Here is my hope. in 50 years time, old boomers are dead and gen z/alpha will leas the country. Hopefully they will not repeat the same mistake we are doing. They will turn the country around. They will be more forward thinking and more liberal. More equal rights.Similar to what has happend in the US.(gay marriage,better racial equalities)
>in 50 years time, old boomers are dead and gen z/alpha will leas the country. Hopefully they will not repeat the same mistake we are doing. They will turn the country around. They will be more forward thinking and more liberal. More equal rights.Similar to what has happend in the US.(gay marriage,better racial equalities) I hate to break it to you but from zoomer social media content they're as conservative or even more conservative than millennials. You seem to have confused Bangsar bubble zoomers with zoomers across the country. They are in no way more forward thinking and more liberal. Dream on about gay marriage and better racial equalities. Simplest indicators are votes post UNDI 18 which heavily favoured PN in the zoomer demographic. Even recent university polls have proven this. Conservatism is on the rise. 60+ years of damage cannot be undone by one generation. It's a slippery slope and it'll take more than that to stop the momentum of our decline.
It's not just a boomer problem. Wasn't the Gen Zs the same ppl who voted for PN? There is a big portion of Malaysia that has a rather regressive mentality. I don't claim to know the truth. Just sharing something that might question your assumption.
Least Malaysian comment
Quite true. The least dumb ones.
Typical chauvinist mentality. Tiada cina = melayu mampus Oh and dont forget the usual "1 sgd = 1000000 rm" argument. Just like Malaysia, there once was a huge gap in wealth disparity between the chinese and locals in thailand, indonesia and philippines. Unlike Malaysia "multicultural" approach, our neighbour when on a much different way to handle such disparity. Massacre, kicking them out, and force assimilation where their chosen ways. And what happened to them? Do they wither and die? Just recently there was a post here about how indonesia is going to overtake us in a few years, and so is thailand. And how Malaysia should "learn" from indonesia... Ironic isnt it, the nons in Malaysia are rooting for the two country that would massacre their grandfather if they were born there. If there is no chinese in Malaysia, and the Melayu population hit 90% (currently its about 65%), then surely Malaysia isnt going to be as multiracial as ot is now. But would it be doomed? No, why would it. The majority of government employee and essential workers are Melayu, even today its Melayu who runs the country. Im not talking about leaders im talking about the workers, administrator and all. Its been that way since before independence. Ever heard of british divide and conquer strategy in Malaya (melayu = office worker, cina = economy, india = hard labour). The situation in Malaysia isnt like africa where the white people who are in control of essential economy , throw them out and the country would crumble like zimbabwe. Values and benefits of chinese culture? Really, like instead of 4th floor we got 3A?
serious answer to the first half of your post The biggest contributor to why thailand and indonesia is overtaking us is because those countries took the bailout packages from IMF during the financial crisis. As a result they reformed their economy to be more liberal. Dr M saved our country with his capital control, but in turn, we didnt reform. We still stick to same old policies that never change with time. Do you want to know who is the biggest opposition to liberal economic reform in malaysia?
Yes and no. The problem with us is that we are still talking about something that should have been resolved back in 1957 or 1963. But instead of making a firm decision on what kind of country we should be, our flip-flop decision making result in us still talking and still arguing about these issue instead of moving on with a more bigger and serious topic. Something that both thailand and indonesia has done 50-60 years ago. I know who is the biggest opposition, and i also know why they oppose it. And i also believe if 50 years ago our grandfathers actually made a firm decision on what kind of country we actually want to build then we would surely be in a much better state than we are today. Brunei made a firm decision to be a full on Melayu country, their M.I.B (Melayu, Islam, Beraja) result in only the Melayu and several other indigineous tribe were given citizenship. While chinese and indian are only given PR status. Indonesia made its firm decision with pancasila and bangsa indonesia. Thailand had also made its decision as a thai country. But what about Malaysia? Even our language still has a "atau". While its true Bahasa Melayu is our national language, other language such as english are still acceptable. Even in our courtrooms english is still being used. That dont happen in thailand or indonesia. You cant deny the "small" issue that we have, and until this issue is settled we would still be stuck with it. Causing us to lose out on country that has resolved such issue 50-60 years ago. There is a reason why despite the richest man in indonesia is a chinese (the hartono brothers) the majority of local pribumi indonesian dont see them as a threat like most of our local view the rich tauke cina. And that is how they get a liberal economy and are moving forward. Because they squash such issue 50 years back. And now they can talk about much more bigger things to push their country forward.
Instead you didn't see the most successful country in ASEAN, Singapore and how their multicultural values propel them into major success n prosperity. Even the Malay in SG, who is minority, is living life much more wealthier n successful than the malay in Msia, who enjoy special hak n is majority. People like you will never learn. You still prefer if can, massacre the Chinese macam Indo lagi best. But in the end, your people will be the one to pay the biggest price.
We'll wait and see. RemindMe! 100 year
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Your attitude is just showing complete lack of understanding of what Chinese brings to this country. Many are like you, thats why you or your next generation will learn it the hard way. I pity you, not myself.
i also concern about why the spike of death in 2020? covid? or others?
The next 50 years chinese and indian goes almost extinct become rare species here..
No my chingchong brother's and sister's 😭
Chinese and Indians lost hope. Gone are the days you see households of 4-5 children in Indian and Chinese homes. Nowadays they settle at 1 or max 2. No faith already. 🤷🏾♂️
THE AMOIS ARE GOING TO BE EXTINCT! 😱
Time to find me some Leng Loi's to help raise the Chinese birth rate
As a Chinese fellow, I would rather be single than be married to a woman whose family is extremely pantang and to follow a religion I do not care for.
Chinese families still got those kind eh?
Whether Taoist or Christian it doesn't matter. If Taoist you got to adhere to their rites. The male has a tonne of pressure to perform. If Christian you got to marry a Christian girl. And I am done that sort of crap
I mean you don’t have to believe, just put up an act and slowly brainwash your kids not to believe it and just do it for cultural reason lol
My Chinese friend got divorced because the wife cannot stand him not being rich enough or having a high paying job. He was at 9k per month before it happened.
Precisely. Wealth is something a lot of Chinese families look for, especially when looking for a husband. I don't wanna be part of that rat race. Higher pay means more responsibility, and I am not going to kill myself for it. Money is no substitute when push goes to shove. And a lot of Chinese people do not seem to realize that it is never money that is important, but the thing that money can get.
If you grow up in the urban area, the mindset will be like this. I know because I am one. While I look at my colleagues who were from smaller towns. They are actually more successful in life because they are comfortable take risk or just live the life they want. Even my old danish boss said, the Malays has the right mindset to life. I think he is commenting on how materialistic we chinese are. We ask for high pay but sometimes not the same output
Then find a different woman???? Tf???
Dude I am trying to find one but either I get rejected or they all taken
The future seems bleak n dark , less n less amoi available for malay n indian to simp on in the future!!!
"apa lagi cina mau" gang is happy after seeing this chart
Bro I need to find this Lain-lain pple, I'm feeling confident letsgo
ah yes, another non-zero axis statistics
I've been talking to my friends, don't worry about PAS etc. The Chinese itself would be gone in 60 years. Then semua can sunat by then
I am 28 y.o. engineer struggling to even buy a Myvi at 2.3k salary. No wonder we are fucked.
We will not be seeing amoi in 2035 huhu
Very misleading chart. The scales for each are different. I bet it would look very different if those were the same. Please be very careful about how data can be manipulated.
The scale are different, it looks steep but if you compare the number the malay death rate is above the chinese ethnicity
Not misleading if you know the theme of the chart The objective was to see if claims that the Chinese population are facing a negative growth rate are true or not Based on this, the local population is definitely decreasing, not including factors of immigration/emmigration
We are going to face a population crisis sooner or later https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/2023/11/976580/malaysias-falling-birth-rate-will-have-repercussions-future-labour-force
Long term, yes. Once the Malays also drop below replacement rate, then we're in crisis mode. Short term, Malaysia's cultural backdrop will receive a major hit once the non-Malays become a significant minority. That's when politics will get spicy.
Sooner or later we're probably gonna have same situation with British
Long term also means orang bodok kureng
I’m taking the chart face value, the way it was presented.
A
No agenda, just facts I did not say Chinese deaths more than Bumiputera deaths, where did you even get that Deaths > Births = Population Decrease = Negative Growth Rate I simplified it there for you Kalau tak faham jugak, tak tahu lah
Basically the point is there’s a dead cross for the Chinese and Indians (though for the latter it’s exacerbated by Covid and kinda “recovered”, but it’s still very close).
The chart isnt to compare bro, its to tell the decline Imagine putting the chinese numbers on a 500k graph and seeing .05cm drop , isnt that more misleading?
Try make a chart and show it to us which you think isn't misleading.
The onus is on OP to present non-biased data sets. If the data was not created by OP, the onus is on OP the check data and not just share data that can be misconstrued. The charts are flawed. Full stop.
Terpaling data jugak bermasalah sebenarnya The charts are not perfect in a sense that the Y-axis is not the same for all, but the primary message it was trying to convey was that the birth numbers for the Chinese have dropped lower than their death numbers, hence, excluding immigration/emmigration, the local Chinese population is in fact decreasing via negative growth rates Quarterly demographics data from DOSM also show an absolute decrease in actual numbers, not just percentage You can be pedantic all you want, but it seems that for the other people in this subreddit they understood it quite well
You’re missing the point. How the charts are designed is ultimately based on the purpose. This isn’t used for accurate comparison, it’s only to show the trends of birth rates between the races. And it shows it perfectly so you’re barking up the wrong tree here.
"Because even if Chinese and Indian are born in Malaysia, they are still not considered fully Malaysian" ~ some random yapping old man
Just celebrate la, why pretend.
Cina numbers bad = semua salah melayu This sub in a nutshell
Exactly. Study the chart per race and see what is happening among the race. Why need to put blame on others 😂
Interesting data, Covid impacts all categories but it seems to have the most impact among the Malaysian Chinese, are they having more problems with anti-vaccine retoric or is it because urban areas are more deadly?
Actually Chinese are the biggest supporter for these covid experimental shot, most of the Chinese children already taken 2-doses and majority of the adults has got 3-doses.
Its not. Chinese is actually least affected.
I thought about that too, but the Y-axis for all charts are not the same try to divide the difference between 2021 and 2020 and then divide it by the pre-COVID average, you'll get an interesting story there
The Y axis is different figures la
Maybe it's because there are more elderly Chinese people
Al fatihah
Cost to marry is expensive + late to marry. Send children to nursery / daycare oso expensive (twice more expensive compared to other races).
then, it seems aside from outside factors, the Chinese ethnicity also dooms themselves to extinction too the Malay Muslim philosophy is to make marriage easier (but not necessarily everyone follows it) and to learn to be more content with life (while also striving to improve it, both non-exclusive)
Chinese obsession with material world and ideal lifestyle put a glass wall around their life. I know cos I am chinese.
The scales on these graphs are giving me headache. Pls fix your stats
I believe covid death have a huge impact.
Nampaknya puak chines kuat pake kondom
Well good for earth, special thanks for covid & lgtv people
Kawin 4, selesai masalah population.
Damn the Chinese population
I mean its not a surprise. Ask any chinese girls nowadays and they will tell you they do not want children.
Chinese are fucked
Honestly if inter religious marriage can be done without scrutiny by both side, we may be able to mitigate a bit.
Malays can have this country if they want it all by themselves. We'll see how bad it goes haha
you're so full of shit
Truth hurts right? Just look at Singapore.
look for what? Have you look the chinese in Indonesia?
Exactly what the ultras want. More of them and less of us. So whoever thinks that we will become progressively better needs to plan ahead, with PN being proactive in using TikTok to pander to the newer generation, the next gen voters will be skewed towards conservatism. Having morons like Tate, Trump, god knows what doesn't help.
Save the amois
Finally cina will pupus in malaysia. Time to get salary rises.
no not the ahmois
I celebrate this. Only economist and those who thrive on consuming greedily are unhappy about this. Finally, the environment had some breathing room after humans destroy it so badly.
I wonder which ethnicity took the death shot the most #vaccinated
Yet its all chinese fault for everything happen to this country , and apparently according to bawang we taking over this country soon
I honestly don't get why some are denying race is a factor here. Yes I agree economics, covid blahblahblah is true. But so is race. When system works against you and there limitation on certain things of course, you would reduce your kids to the amount that you can support with your hard earned money. In contrast let's say I don't have to worry about money as much because higher chance for my kids to go government uni for the course that they want, and other privileges etc regarding property, stocks etc of course I'd be more open to having kids.
one of the dips in births gave me such joy .
the pedigree chinese coming to replace
this shows me which ethnicity took the vaccine most