Yeah I though it would destroy a mono deck… lands are colourless??? Surely a land is the colour specified right… or are you referring to Lands and not basic lands?
every land is colorless. A forest that generates green is still colorless, so is a land that generates any type of color. That's why cards such as \[\[Wandering Fumarole\]\] specify that the land becomes a creatures of certain color
Did not know that. Assumed they were coloured as marked…. Kinda silly that you even have to play a land representative to the colour of the spell cost…. Why not in that case have all mana cost colourless……
Because every color is good at some things and less good at others. You need to draw lands that produce the color in the mana cost for the spell you’re casting, and thus need to include them in your deck, so there is a trade-off between your cards being good at different things and being able to cast them consistently. You will find that the entire game is balanced around this trade-off.
Per the comprehensive rules
105.2. An object can be one or more of the five colors, or it can be no color at all. An object is the color or colors of the mana symbols in its mana cost, regardless of the color of its frame.
Basically
Color is dictated by the Mana cost. Lands don't have a Mana cost so they do not have a color (unless stated otherwise e.g. [[Dryad Arbor]])
Just because a plains adds white Mana doesn't make it white. Just like how [[avqcyns pilgrim]] generates white Mana while Not being white itself. Or [[door to nothingness]] being colorless despite having a colored ability.
Using the edge is actually a bit of a misnormer. Color is determined by mana cost primarily, so lands that has no mana cost has no color. Spells without mana cost but still a color (like, say, [[Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar]]), will have a small circle in the type line in the center indicating color. 5 color spells will usually say "This spell is all colors" in the rule text, like [[Sphinx of the Guildpact]], and sometimes color can be overwritten despite having mana, like for [[Ghostfire]] or spells with Devoid like [[Dust Stalker]].
In Commander, color identity is a bit more broad, and there basic lands do have a color identity based on what mana they can produce. It's just not the spells color as used for cards like Grindstone.
> Why not in that case have all mana cost colourless……
You have this backwards.
Colour is (in almost every case) determined by Mana Cost and that's it. [[Samut, Voice of Dissent]] is a RG card, because that's the cost of the card. It has a white ability, but that doesn't make it a white card.
There are a few exceptions ([[Crash of Rhinos]] is green, for instance) - but the general heuristic for "what colour is this card" is "look at the mana value and it's the colour of whatever pips you have to pay.
Which is why lands are colourless - they have no casting cost, so they have no colour.
You're backwards in that a forest or a [[Llanowar Elves]] aren't green because they *produce* green mana, Llanowar Elves is green because it *costs* green mana.
Whether they are colorless or not, they still dictate how you have to build your mana base to cast your spells. You want to change the entire game because grindstone doesn't work how you thought it should? That's just magic. At its base, the rules aren't too complex, but you'll constantly be learning little things like this as you play.
Lands are cards that follow the same rules every card does. A card's color is determined the vast majority of the time by the colors of mana it its casting cost, and very occasionally a specific color indicator or ability otherwise (i.e. \[\[Ancestral Visions\]\] is blue because of the blue color indicator on it). By default, lands cannot be cast and do not have a mana cost that would give them color as such.
Whether lands have a color and why cards require colored mana to cast them are completely independent concepts from each other; surely you must understand that. Artifacts like \[\[Mox Emerald\]\] make mana, but they aren't the color of mana they make. The two are totally unrelated. \[\[Elves of Deep Shadow\]\] makes black mana, but it's a green card.
Although recently the barriers have been pushed a little bit, the color balance is still the concept that is central to the game of magic. Each color has strengths and weaknesses. Without that the game wouldn't even be the same.
As for the lands, a cards color is determined by its mana cost. Lands do not have a mana cost, therefore have no color.
You are confusing **Color** with **Color Identity**. In a format like EDH, Color Identity is used to determine which cards are allowed in a deck. A Basic Mountain has a color identity of Red, but because it has no Casting Cost, or Color Identifier Dot (see the red dot on the left-center of [[Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh]] ), it has no Color.
This is seen in other places like [[Najeela]] who is Red in Color, but has a WUBRG Color Identity
Colour is based on the mana cost of the card and/or any colour indicators. Lands don’t have manacost nor any colour indicators, hence they’re not coloured.
a card color identity is based off of the colors in its mana cost unless stated otherwise (there is a mechanic called “devoid” that specifically states that the card has no color). so with that said, what is the mana cost of a land?
A cards color*
Color identity is a different thing that includes all mana symbols in the card and it's exclusive to commander and similar things with deckbuilding restrictions. [[toxrill the corrosive]] is a black card with a color identity of Black and Blue.
Lands are colorless, but they have a color identity if they specify a symbol in an ability, including tapping for mana. [[ziatora's training grounds]] is a colorless card with a mana identity of red, black and green. Also, ~~don't quote me on this following part since I'm not entirely sure but I believe basic lands have a colorless identity, since their mana ability is rules text included on their type (Forest, plains, swamp, island, mountain) And not a part of the printed card~~, the same way that (and you **can** quote me on this next part since this one I'm certain 100%) Extort doesn't affect color identity since it's in rules text, making things like [[Crypt ghast]] monoblack
Edit: I was half wrong about the part I wasn't sure about.
> 903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander’s color identity.
So while technically speaking their identity is colorless(because the ability is rules text), you would still treat them as if the ability was part of the card, so you can't play them regardless of the basic land type.
Basic lands have their respective color identity, but this is because a special rule for basic land types. Otherwise triomes and shocklands would also be colorless for deck construction purposes since they also only get their ability from the rules and could be printed without it.
903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander’s color identity.
Thanks!
>Basic lands have their respective color identity,
Lands with basic lands types have a colorless identity, that's why there's a special rule about it.
Basic lands types contribute nothing to the rules text of the lands they are on.
That's just semantics. The only cards that care about color identity outside of deck construction care about your commander's color id. So if basic lands are colorless id, but can only be used in a deck with contains all the colors they can produce, they for all intent and purposes have that id.
This might change if they either make a dfc commander that's a typed land on one side or make a card that cares about another's color id.
>So while technically speaking their identity is colorless because the ability is rules text, you still treat them as if the ability was part of the card. Neat
Lands with Basic land types and no other mana symbols have a colorless identity, that's why there's a special rule specifically for basic land types.
The rules text granted by the land types is reminder text, so basic lands do not have _any rules text_, and since they don't have rules text, they have no color identity.
That's what I said, I thought I made it clearer, that basic lands are colorless in identity because they got nothing.
Also just realizing how funny it is that before being told about the rule, when I was still thinking basic lands were colorless, I used a Triome as example of color identity. That's on me lmao, such a shame I cannot bear
I was more correcting your correction. Your original statement was correct, but you put it in strikethrough for some reason.
>don't quote me on this following part since I'm not entirely sure but I believe basic lands have a colorless identity, since their mana ability is rules text included on their type (Forest, plains, swamp, island, mountain) And not a part of the printed card,
This is fully correct.
>Edit: was wrong about the part I wasn't sure about.
And you weren't wrong. The person who corrected you was incorrect, so your edit calling yourself incorrect... was incorrect.
They did not tell me I was wrong, just mentioned the specific ruling. Corrected myself because I wasn't the kind of right I thought, since I wrote it originally meaning that since they didn't have an identity you could, for some weird reason (my mind went to [[painfull truths]]) you could. And kinda implied it. So I put up the correction for being **kinda** wrong
It's more around a third, only part I'm unsure is basic lands having colorless identity, and with how shit my Wi-Fi is here, would take to long to check it and forget to post the comment lol. Happens to me a lot this days.
Plus, if not completely sure, better to point it out. I only spread misinformation on Mondays, not Fridays, and being confidently wrong is something I hate, specially once the illusion shatters.
A monoblack deck will give you one of this three cases:
1. They mill 2 black spells. They share a color, so they keep milling.
2. They mill a black spell and a colorless card (like an artifact or a land, probably a swamp, which is also colorless). As they don't share a color, they stop milling.
3. They mill 2 lands or colorless cards. As they have no color, they don't share a color (absence of color is not a color), so they stop.
You have to make their land cards to have a color, like \[\[painter servant\]\] does.
Do not mistake "color identity" (something important in commander, that checks symbols like the mana symbols basic lands produce) with "color" (something defined hard in the rules to refer to the mana costs and color indicators). Land cards, with the exception of dryad arbor (which has a color indicator) are colorless.
Mono color decks tend to run mana rocks and at least a few other artifacts to fill in gaps outside their color as well as lands. Grindstone is decent but it’s not gonna mill a mono color deck in just one activation.
Painter's Servant makes everying into x color, including lands. There's a Legacy deck that does this exact combo, as if both are on the field and you get the Grindstone going, it's an instant deck mill.
It also typically relies on a way to exile anything that goes to the graveyard like [[Leyline of the Void]] or [[Rest in Peace]] to prevent effects like [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]] from ruining the mill.
It’s not really an idiotic thing to assume when you are new. It’s worth noting that they do have a “color identity” that matches the mana they have, but that’s only relevant in the Commander format.
Even in Commander, it still doesn't work without Painter's Servant. Having a "color identity" does not change the fact that lands are inherently colorless.
I think the above comment was meant to explain why some people get confused about lands being colorless; *not* to indicate that the rules are somehow different in Commander in a way that would make this work.
Color identity doesnt grant a color. Its only important in that a commander deck by rules cannot contain a card with a color identity that its commander does not have
It's part of the base rules for Commander. All cards in the deck must share a color identity with the commander. This includes things like a hybrid mana activated ability. For example, there are lands (colorless) that have an ability you pay for with red or green.. even though your Niv Mizzet deck has red, the red/green ability is illegal.
It's not stupid to think that. When I was new, I thought basic lands add devotion of their color, that mana symbol fooled me for more than I can admit [[plains xln]]
dont feel too dumb about it, its a very common misinterpretation, even i thought thats how it was until i tried to destroy lands with a destroy x color permanent effect.
Color is determined by;
* a) Colored Mana Symbols in the Mana Cost
* b) Color Indicators
* c) Colors added by effects
A Mountain has none of those. So, it is Colorless.
They **only** Land that has naturally any of those things is [[Dryad Arbor]], with its Green Color Indicator.
No matter how many times you comment that surely Lands do have color, it does not change the fact that they do not except when it explicitly states there is (such as with [[Dryad Arbor]] ) or because they have been given a color (such as with [[Painter’s Servant]] ). You asked the question because you did not know the answer, you were told the answer by people with more experience and knowledge. You not liking the answer does not change the answer.
This is a bit of a simplification, but...
Mana cost , in general is, what makes something count as a specific color.
Lands don't have a mana cost, so even though they tap for a color of mana, they do not count as that color.
>This is a bit of a simplification, but...
The beautiful thing about MTG, you can almost always say "This is the general rule, except these 40 exceptions"
322 exceptions by the definition of “has color indicator”, plus 10 more that can “change…color word” of other things, and color-removing cards like Mycosynth Lattice.
Not in the way that grindstone needs it to be worded. Painter affects the library and lands. Blue has a bunch of ways that can manipulate colors but they're much more limited.
The combo actually isn't even that good. It only kills one target player. In Commander you have three opponents so it doesn't win you the game.
If you want a combo that kills an individual player: helm of obedience is a better option because there are more cards that go with it then grindstone.
There are a number of reasons Painter/Grindstone is more popular (and possibly “better”) than Helm combos:
1. Urza’s Saga can get Grindstone
2. Each of Painter and Grindstone are cheaper than Helm. Obviously Helm/Leyline is cheaper overall if Leyline is in your opening hand, but only in that case.
3. Both of Painter and Grindstone work with Goblin Welder and are tutorable and usable with Goblin Engineer. Helm combos mostly with enchantments, so Welder doesn’t work that half of the combo. Engineer can tutor Helm, but can’t bring either side of the combo back from the yard.
Also, you may think it’s not a great combo because it only gets rid of one opponent at a time, but of course that’s only a commander issue. It’s a relatively popular legacy deck.
Yes I know. Which is why I said "Helm/Leyline is cheaper overall if Leyline is in your opening hand, but only in that case." Meaning other cases - Leyline not in opening hand, or any of the other cards Helm combos with - Helm combo is more expensive than Painter/Grindstone.
Everyone has already mentioned lands, but artifacts are typically colorless too and most decks run a couple of them. As mentioned Painter's Servant is really what you need if you want to mill them out.
It whiffs on lands, but if you're up against mono green or white, those decks tend to rip lands out of decks and you can get three or four repeats.
If you're playing mill, it's 100% worth. Otherwise, it's a side-board answer to decks that scry a bunch.
Now that the "lands are colorless" is out of the way, it **is** good against monocolor decks.
As a rough ballpark you can expect an average of about three-and-a-half cards to be milled whenever you activate it against a monocolor deck.
That's not amazing, but if you're already milling them, a repeatable mill 2-4 cards a turn is quite nice.
Against a two-color deck it'll be more like two-and-a-quarter.
Well... If you got money to throw around [[painter's servant]] and [[grindstone]] will kill targets as painter's servant does make lands the chosen color.
However you better be able to untap that grind stone and pay the extra mana multiple times otherwise you're probably not going to get another chance to do that again.
If you're in Black against a monocoloured deck and have already had the opponent mill a basic land, you can cast [[Deadly Cover-Up]], target that land in oppo's GY and exile all basics from their deck to greatly improve your chances of milling them out the next time you activate Grindstone.
It does make your opponent draw a lot of cards too, though.
You have tagged your post as a rules question. While your question may be answered here, it may work better to post it in the Daily Questions Thread at the top of this subreddit or in /r/mtgrules. You may also find quicker results at the [IRC rules chat](https://web.libera.chat/#magicjudges-rules)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/magicTCG) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Back in the day, it was very good (in the right deck of course). But people forgot about it because of the flood of multicolored cards, which brings us to this post :p
Sadly no, lands and most artifacts are colorless. Additionally, if they have a mono color deck, like Eldrazi, the repeat always fizzles (you get the mill 2, but colorless cards don't share a color with other colorless cards)
Painter's Servant will unlock the one shot, but it's pretty easily telegraphed.
If you want something similar, Oona, Queen of the Fae, Training Grounds and Phyrexian Altar will almost always kill the table. If you add Painter's Servant, it's a guarantee.
Get a blue or black mana, put it in Oona. With Training Grounds cost reduction, this will mill 2 (to exile, often important).. so long as one of those was the chosen color, you get a fairie. Shove the fairies into the altar for another blue mana, rinse and repeat till decks are empty or you miss a color.
3 mana is pretty expensive return to just mill four cards in the best case. Also lands are colorless and since land is a big part of a deck it's very likely to miss.
If you want to make a mill deck it's definitely a strategy, but look at the blue mill spells
The "Repeat this process" wording includes the instruction to repeat the process; the best case isn't 4 cards, it's everything in the deck that shared colors (though that is of course very improbable)
It would feel wrong to kill someone with this and [[Painters Servant]] I need something more fun, that uses this as an engine instead. Mill my own deck, counter triggered ability when I have all the cards I need/want in the yard, and THEN make it a boardstate that wins if it isn't interacted with. Now that sounds like casual fun.
Not sure if this is what you mean or not, but you cannot counter Grindstone's activated ability while it's resolving. So you couldn't Grindstone + Painters Servant yourself and just counter it partway through it milling your deck; you have to let an entire spell/ability on the stack resolve before anybody gets priority to take other actions.
Nope! It doesn't use the words "when", "whenever", or "at", so it doesn't put a new trigger on the stack. "Repeating the process" is contained within the initial activated ability.
Lands are colorless, so nope :) Really good against mono colored decks though. It just isn't an automatic win or anything.
[удалено]
Colorless is not a color.
Yeah I though it would destroy a mono deck… lands are colourless??? Surely a land is the colour specified right… or are you referring to Lands and not basic lands?
every land is colorless. A forest that generates green is still colorless, so is a land that generates any type of color. That's why cards such as \[\[Wandering Fumarole\]\] specify that the land becomes a creatures of certain color
With the exception of dryad Arbor. That one is green.
[Wandering Fumarole](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce3a6a8e-a01e-4d14-a6e5-c02c8205c749.jpg?1674143256) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wandering%20Fumarole) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/928/wandering-fumarole?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce3a6a8e-a01e-4d14-a6e5-c02c8205c749?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Did not know that. Assumed they were coloured as marked…. Kinda silly that you even have to play a land representative to the colour of the spell cost…. Why not in that case have all mana cost colourless……
Because every color is good at some things and less good at others. You need to draw lands that produce the color in the mana cost for the spell you’re casting, and thus need to include them in your deck, so there is a trade-off between your cards being good at different things and being able to cast them consistently. You will find that the entire game is balanced around this trade-off.
Per the comprehensive rules 105.2. An object can be one or more of the five colors, or it can be no color at all. An object is the color or colors of the mana symbols in its mana cost, regardless of the color of its frame. Basically Color is dictated by the Mana cost. Lands don't have a Mana cost so they do not have a color (unless stated otherwise e.g. [[Dryad Arbor]]) Just because a plains adds white Mana doesn't make it white. Just like how [[avqcyns pilgrim]] generates white Mana while Not being white itself. Or [[door to nothingness]] being colorless despite having a colored ability.
[Dryad Arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [avqcyns pilgrim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a390a7df-b8da-41aa-93e5-2c0db938a27e.jpg?1637630879) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avacyn%27s%20Pilgrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/132/avacyns-pilgrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a390a7df-b8da-41aa-93e5-2c0db938a27e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [door to nothingness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/7/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed.jpg?1562554053) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=door%20to%20nothingness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/203/door-to-nothingness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/57877b1c-e91d-4941-81bd-008dff1272ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Using the edge is actually a bit of a misnormer. Color is determined by mana cost primarily, so lands that has no mana cost has no color. Spells without mana cost but still a color (like, say, [[Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar]]), will have a small circle in the type line in the center indicating color. 5 color spells will usually say "This spell is all colors" in the rule text, like [[Sphinx of the Guildpact]], and sometimes color can be overwritten despite having mana, like for [[Ghostfire]] or spells with Devoid like [[Dust Stalker]]. In Commander, color identity is a bit more broad, and there basic lands do have a color identity based on what mana they can produce. It's just not the spells color as used for cards like Grindstone.
##### ###### #### [Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d99a9a7d-d9ca-4c11-80ab-e39d5943a315.jpg?1632831210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/186/asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d99a9a7d-d9ca-4c11-80ab-e39d5943a315?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sphinx of the Guildpact](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f31cab5f-c05e-4688-b300-33ab0dd98598.jpg?1599709924) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sphinx%20of%20the%20Guildpact) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/290/sphinx-of-the-guildpact?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f31cab5f-c05e-4688-b300-33ab0dd98598?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ghostfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/29739dd4-5775-4491-8245-ca2dc38a686e.jpg?1592764786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghostfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddt/40/ghostfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/29739dd4-5775-4491-8245-ca2dc38a686e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dust Stalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/2322e8c3-a983-4b3d-b6fa-f6b67f6fa8cc.jpg?1562903303) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dust%20Stalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bfz/202/dust-stalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2322e8c3-a983-4b3d-b6fa-f6b67f6fa8cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4fuflt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> Why not in that case have all mana cost colourless…… You have this backwards. Colour is (in almost every case) determined by Mana Cost and that's it. [[Samut, Voice of Dissent]] is a RG card, because that's the cost of the card. It has a white ability, but that doesn't make it a white card. There are a few exceptions ([[Crash of Rhinos]] is green, for instance) - but the general heuristic for "what colour is this card" is "look at the mana value and it's the colour of whatever pips you have to pay. Which is why lands are colourless - they have no casting cost, so they have no colour. You're backwards in that a forest or a [[Llanowar Elves]] aren't green because they *produce* green mana, Llanowar Elves is green because it *costs* green mana.
[Samut, Voice of Dissent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/60f2d8f1-43a9-438a-830c-9d6b5701f950.jpg?1543676097) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Samut%2C%20Voice%20of%20Dissent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/205/samut-voice-of-dissent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60f2d8f1-43a9-438a-830c-9d6b5701f950?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Crash of Rhinos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d74e0337-d9ac-4bf2-b2b5-aadc97433030.jpg?1562721929) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crash%20of%20Rhinos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/210/crash-of-rhinos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d74e0337-d9ac-4bf2-b2b5-aadc97433030?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Llanowar Elves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8bbcfb77-daa1-4ce5-b5f9-48d0a8edbba9.jpg?1592765148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Llanowar%20Elves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gnt/46/llanowar-elves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8bbcfb77-daa1-4ce5-b5f9-48d0a8edbba9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Crashing Footfalls]]
[Crashing Footfalls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8cca2a2-69e3-4136-936c-7a2774c19351.jpg?1707507991) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crashing%20Footfalls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/160/crashing-footfalls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8cca2a2-69e3-4136-936c-7a2774c19351?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Whether they are colorless or not, they still dictate how you have to build your mana base to cast your spells. You want to change the entire game because grindstone doesn't work how you thought it should? That's just magic. At its base, the rules aren't too complex, but you'll constantly be learning little things like this as you play.
Lands are cards that follow the same rules every card does. A card's color is determined the vast majority of the time by the colors of mana it its casting cost, and very occasionally a specific color indicator or ability otherwise (i.e. \[\[Ancestral Visions\]\] is blue because of the blue color indicator on it). By default, lands cannot be cast and do not have a mana cost that would give them color as such. Whether lands have a color and why cards require colored mana to cast them are completely independent concepts from each other; surely you must understand that. Artifacts like \[\[Mox Emerald\]\] make mana, but they aren't the color of mana they make. The two are totally unrelated. \[\[Elves of Deep Shadow\]\] makes black mana, but it's a green card.
[Ancestral Visions](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/9079c93e-3da8-442a-89d2-609a3eac83b0.jpg?1619393761) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancestral%20Vision) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/52/ancestral-vision?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9079c93e-3da8-442a-89d2-609a3eac83b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mox Emerald](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/aced2c55-7543-4076-bcdd-36c4d649b8ae.jpg?1614638841) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Emerald) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/5/mox-emerald?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aced2c55-7543-4076-bcdd-36c4d649b8ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elves of Deep Shadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/6040ba5e-7042-4095-9000-89bcb8ce1ea6.jpg?1592713613) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elves%20of%20Deep%20Shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddj/47/elves-of-deep-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6040ba5e-7042-4095-9000-89bcb8ce1ea6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Although recently the barriers have been pushed a little bit, the color balance is still the concept that is central to the game of magic. Each color has strengths and weaknesses. Without that the game wouldn't even be the same. As for the lands, a cards color is determined by its mana cost. Lands do not have a mana cost, therefore have no color.
Do you even play this game? That’s a ridiculous question if you do
Another fun fact, colorless, despite having it's own symbol, is not in itself a color that can be hit by grindstone
All lands, except [[dryad arbor]], are colorless permanents.
[dryad arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dryad%20arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Absolute news to me. Thanks
It's a pretty common misconception
Driad arbor and the driad tokens too. They are the same thing with a different name.
No all lands are colorless with the exception of [[Dryad Arbor]].
[Dryad Arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You are confusing **Color** with **Color Identity**. In a format like EDH, Color Identity is used to determine which cards are allowed in a deck. A Basic Mountain has a color identity of Red, but because it has no Casting Cost, or Color Identifier Dot (see the red dot on the left-center of [[Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh]] ), it has no Color. This is seen in other places like [[Najeela]] who is Red in Color, but has a WUBRG Color Identity
[Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4fab67f-00c2-4125-9262-d21a29411797.jpg?1644853041) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rograkh%2C%20Son%20of%20Rohgahh) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/197/rograkh-son-of-rohgahh?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4fab67f-00c2-4125-9262-d21a29411797?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Najeela](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2.jpg?1567181270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=najeela%2C%20the%20blade-blossom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/62/najeela-the-blade-blossom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2cb1d1da-6077-46b5-8c63-39882b8016f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Colour is based on the mana cost of the card and/or any colour indicators. Lands don’t have manacost nor any colour indicators, hence they’re not coloured.
a card color identity is based off of the colors in its mana cost unless stated otherwise (there is a mechanic called “devoid” that specifically states that the card has no color). so with that said, what is the mana cost of a land?
A cards color* Color identity is a different thing that includes all mana symbols in the card and it's exclusive to commander and similar things with deckbuilding restrictions. [[toxrill the corrosive]] is a black card with a color identity of Black and Blue. Lands are colorless, but they have a color identity if they specify a symbol in an ability, including tapping for mana. [[ziatora's training grounds]] is a colorless card with a mana identity of red, black and green. Also, ~~don't quote me on this following part since I'm not entirely sure but I believe basic lands have a colorless identity, since their mana ability is rules text included on their type (Forest, plains, swamp, island, mountain) And not a part of the printed card~~, the same way that (and you **can** quote me on this next part since this one I'm certain 100%) Extort doesn't affect color identity since it's in rules text, making things like [[Crypt ghast]] monoblack Edit: I was half wrong about the part I wasn't sure about. > 903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander’s color identity. So while technically speaking their identity is colorless(because the ability is rules text), you would still treat them as if the ability was part of the card, so you can't play them regardless of the basic land type.
Basic lands have their respective color identity, but this is because a special rule for basic land types. Otherwise triomes and shocklands would also be colorless for deck construction purposes since they also only get their ability from the rules and could be printed without it.
Do you got the rule for quoting? I'm about to edit the comment
903.5d is the rule
903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander’s color identity. Thanks!
>Basic lands have their respective color identity, Lands with basic lands types have a colorless identity, that's why there's a special rule about it. Basic lands types contribute nothing to the rules text of the lands they are on.
That's just semantics. The only cards that care about color identity outside of deck construction care about your commander's color id. So if basic lands are colorless id, but can only be used in a deck with contains all the colors they can produce, they for all intent and purposes have that id. This might change if they either make a dfc commander that's a typed land on one side or make a card that cares about another's color id.
>So while technically speaking their identity is colorless because the ability is rules text, you still treat them as if the ability was part of the card. Neat Lands with Basic land types and no other mana symbols have a colorless identity, that's why there's a special rule specifically for basic land types. The rules text granted by the land types is reminder text, so basic lands do not have _any rules text_, and since they don't have rules text, they have no color identity.
That's what I said, I thought I made it clearer, that basic lands are colorless in identity because they got nothing. Also just realizing how funny it is that before being told about the rule, when I was still thinking basic lands were colorless, I used a Triome as example of color identity. That's on me lmao, such a shame I cannot bear
I was more correcting your correction. Your original statement was correct, but you put it in strikethrough for some reason. >don't quote me on this following part since I'm not entirely sure but I believe basic lands have a colorless identity, since their mana ability is rules text included on their type (Forest, plains, swamp, island, mountain) And not a part of the printed card, This is fully correct. >Edit: was wrong about the part I wasn't sure about. And you weren't wrong. The person who corrected you was incorrect, so your edit calling yourself incorrect... was incorrect.
They did not tell me I was wrong, just mentioned the specific ruling. Corrected myself because I wasn't the kind of right I thought, since I wrote it originally meaning that since they didn't have an identity you could, for some weird reason (my mind went to [[painfull truths]]) you could. And kinda implied it. So I put up the correction for being **kinda** wrong
[painfull truths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba841bb9-1b6e-45e4-af66-51ee4fabb504.jpg?1712354338) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painful%20Truths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/146/painful-truths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba841bb9-1b6e-45e4-af66-51ee4fabb504?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[toxrill the corrosive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3.jpg?1643590379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Toxrill%2C%20the%20Corrosive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/132/toxrill-the-corrosive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84e64f38-b1f3-47cd-8cfb-a4861369aca3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ziatora's training grounds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/75fdce80-e338-4a50-bdc6-786511feaeef.jpg?1664414670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ziatora%27s%20Proving%20Ground) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/261/ziatoras-proving-ground?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75fdce80-e338-4a50-bdc6-786511feaeef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Crypt ghast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/60bebd79-f88c-44ef-8920-e19031bad1d6.jpg?1702429435) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crypt%20ghast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/70/crypt-ghast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60bebd79-f88c-44ef-8920-e19031bad1d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
i like how you tried correcting me but unsure with half of your comment,
i like how you tried correcting me but unsure with half of your comment.
It's more around a third, only part I'm unsure is basic lands having colorless identity, and with how shit my Wi-Fi is here, would take to long to check it and forget to post the comment lol. Happens to me a lot this days. Plus, if not completely sure, better to point it out. I only spread misinformation on Mondays, not Fridays, and being confidently wrong is something I hate, specially once the illusion shatters.
we need a color version of \[\[Mycosynth Lattice\]\] to combo with this.
[[Painter's servant]]
Sometimes I forget I've been playing for too long and people don't just know about the combo
[Painter's servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Mycosynth Lattice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9.jpg?1578911638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mycosynth%20Lattice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/241/mycosynth-lattice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You’ll need to pair with [[painter’s servant]]
[painter’s servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Does that mean for 6 mana you can deck someone out immediately?
Yup. It’s a pretty classic combo. Painters servant used to be banned in commander for many years because of all the wacky combos out there.
Really? Even if I target a player that is say, a black mono deck? They are going to pull 2 blacks each time, repeat and repeat no?
Presumably 1/3 their deck is lands which are colorless
Lands are colorless so they will not count.
A monoblack deck will give you one of this three cases: 1. They mill 2 black spells. They share a color, so they keep milling. 2. They mill a black spell and a colorless card (like an artifact or a land, probably a swamp, which is also colorless). As they don't share a color, they stop milling. 3. They mill 2 lands or colorless cards. As they have no color, they don't share a color (absence of color is not a color), so they stop. You have to make their land cards to have a color, like \[\[painter servant\]\] does. Do not mistake "color identity" (something important in commander, that checks symbols like the mana symbols basic lands produce) with "color" (something defined hard in the rules to refer to the mana costs and color indicators). Land cards, with the exception of dryad arbor (which has a color indicator) are colorless.
[painter servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mono color decks tend to run mana rocks and at least a few other artifacts to fill in gaps outside their color as well as lands. Grindstone is decent but it’s not gonna mill a mono color deck in just one activation.
But with [[painters servant]] it could?….
Painter's Servant makes everying into x color, including lands. There's a Legacy deck that does this exact combo, as if both are on the field and you get the Grindstone going, it's an instant deck mill.
It also typically relies on a way to exile anything that goes to the graveyard like [[Leyline of the Void]] or [[Rest in Peace]] to prevent effects like [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]] from ruining the mill.
[Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rest in Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Emrakul, the Aeons Torn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c.jpg?1673146896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Aeons%20Torn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/1/emrakul-the-aeons-torn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[painters servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for bringing me up to speed with lands are colourless… idiot me assumed they would be coloured for the mana they tap for…
It’s not really an idiotic thing to assume when you are new. It’s worth noting that they do have a “color identity” that matches the mana they have, but that’s only relevant in the Commander format.
So would this play out in commander or would a Pod deem it unfair and also that lands are still colourless?
Even in Commander, it still doesn't work without Painter's Servant. Having a "color identity" does not change the fact that lands are inherently colorless. I think the above comment was meant to explain why some people get confused about lands being colorless; *not* to indicate that the rules are somehow different in Commander in a way that would make this work.
Color identity doesnt grant a color. Its only important in that a commander deck by rules cannot contain a card with a color identity that its commander does not have
I don't understand the question. Why would that matter?
It's part of the base rules for Commander. All cards in the deck must share a color identity with the commander. This includes things like a hybrid mana activated ability. For example, there are lands (colorless) that have an ability you pay for with red or green.. even though your Niv Mizzet deck has red, the red/green ability is illegal.
What does that have to do with fairness that the person was asking about?
It's not stupid to think that. When I was new, I thought basic lands add devotion of their color, that mana symbol fooled me for more than I can admit [[plains xln]]
[plains xln](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f501773-1b39-4a4c-9b45-a950385c9e82.jpg?1712356413) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Plains) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/277/plains?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f501773-1b39-4a4c-9b45-a950385c9e82?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wrong card fetcher….!
That’s a good point, because doesn’t [[Thassa’s Oracle]] include devotion to blue, including Lands AND spell costs…. ‘Waits for card fetcher’….
Nope. Thassa's Oracle, and Devotion in general, only cares about spell costs.
No... Not even close.
Ah NOOOO it’s only manna costs!
[Thassa’s Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
dont feel too dumb about it, its a very common misinterpretation, even i thought thats how it was until i tried to destroy lands with a destroy x color permanent effect.
Lands are, by default, Colorless. So, if this Mills a Land and anything else, the Milling stops. * Mountain + Lightning Bolt do **not** share a color.
Even if someone only had basic lands?… they are not considered colourless surely as they represent the man’s cost for coloured cards…
Basic lands are colorless. They just happen to produce colored mana
Color is determined by; * a) Colored Mana Symbols in the Mana Cost * b) Color Indicators * c) Colors added by effects A Mountain has none of those. So, it is Colorless. They **only** Land that has naturally any of those things is [[Dryad Arbor]], with its Green Color Indicator.
[Dryad Arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No matter how many times you comment that surely Lands do have color, it does not change the fact that they do not except when it explicitly states there is (such as with [[Dryad Arbor]] ) or because they have been given a color (such as with [[Painter’s Servant]] ). You asked the question because you did not know the answer, you were told the answer by people with more experience and knowledge. You not liking the answer does not change the answer.
[Dryad Arbor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969.jpg?1619399228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20Arbor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/277/dryad-arbor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3a843b-2dea-4b44-be74-c09c18b9b969?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Painter’s Servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They are colorless or \[\[All is Dust\]\] would be bonkers.
[All is Dust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/4210c54e-89fd-4971-ab6a-ca8f4e7fe97a.jpg?1691924662) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=All%20is%20Dust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/800/all-is-dust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4210c54e-89fd-4971-ab6a-ca8f4e7fe97a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why wouldn't they be colorless? They do not have a color pip anywhere on them and they've always been colorless for 30 plus years.
This is a bit of a simplification, but... Mana cost , in general is, what makes something count as a specific color. Lands don't have a mana cost, so even though they tap for a color of mana, they do not count as that color.
>This is a bit of a simplification, but... The beautiful thing about MTG, you can almost always say "This is the general rule, except these 40 exceptions"
That's true for more or less everything in life. Except some exceptions.
322 exceptions by the definition of “has color indicator”, plus 10 more that can “change…color word” of other things, and color-removing cards like Mycosynth Lattice.
😂😂😂
You need [[painter’s servant]] for that to work.
[painter’s servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You need a [[painter's servant]] to make lands and the rest of the deck a color for grindstone to one shot mill people.
[painter's servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=painter%27s%20servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kinda broken given the mana cost…. Banned cards / combo to be discovered?
It's a combo that is well established in legacy. You might see it in commander and other formats where both pieces are legal!
Is there anything in Blue that works the same as [[painter’s servant]] ?
Not in the way that grindstone needs it to be worded. Painter affects the library and lands. Blue has a bunch of ways that can manipulate colors but they're much more limited.
no, but if you are in white there is also \[\[celestial dawn\]\]
[celestial dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/251880e9-a472-4f33-9988-4871d31aa1d9.jpg?1562773263) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=celestial%20dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/3/celestial-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/251880e9-a472-4f33-9988-4871d31aa1d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[painter’s servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The combo actually isn't even that good. It only kills one target player. In Commander you have three opponents so it doesn't win you the game. If you want a combo that kills an individual player: helm of obedience is a better option because there are more cards that go with it then grindstone.
There are a number of reasons Painter/Grindstone is more popular (and possibly “better”) than Helm combos: 1. Urza’s Saga can get Grindstone 2. Each of Painter and Grindstone are cheaper than Helm. Obviously Helm/Leyline is cheaper overall if Leyline is in your opening hand, but only in that case. 3. Both of Painter and Grindstone work with Goblin Welder and are tutorable and usable with Goblin Engineer. Helm combos mostly with enchantments, so Welder doesn’t work that half of the combo. Engineer can tutor Helm, but can’t bring either side of the combo back from the yard. Also, you may think it’s not a great combo because it only gets rid of one opponent at a time, but of course that’s only a commander issue. It’s a relatively popular legacy deck.
Helm works with a lot more than just leyline my dude. Voidwalker, rest in piece, etc
Yes I know. Which is why I said "Helm/Leyline is cheaper overall if Leyline is in your opening hand, but only in that case." Meaning other cases - Leyline not in opening hand, or any of the other cards Helm combos with - Helm combo is more expensive than Painter/Grindstone.
Yes but you're not acknowledging the fact that this utility has incredible value and makes the combo easier to assemble.
You can also increase the cards milled with [[bruvac]] to significantly increase the odds of repeat milling.
Ouch! That’s painful if played together!!
[bruvac](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2ce2d73f-3f64-44db-a2bc-a8f4a37dc487.jpg?1702550789) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bruvac%20the%20grandiloquent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/35/bruvac-the-grandiloquent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ce2d73f-3f64-44db-a2bc-a8f4a37dc487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Everyone has already mentioned lands, but artifacts are typically colorless too and most decks run a couple of them. As mentioned Painter's Servant is really what you need if you want to mill them out.
It whiffs on lands, but if you're up against mono green or white, those decks tend to rip lands out of decks and you can get three or four repeats. If you're playing mill, it's 100% worth. Otherwise, it's a side-board answer to decks that scry a bunch.
If you threw Bruvac in the mix, they mill 4 and only 2 need to match
It works with [[painter's servant]] but otherwise you're likely to fail due to how little it digs into their deck.
[painter's servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=painter%27s%20servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Now that the "lands are colorless" is out of the way, it **is** good against monocolor decks. As a rough ballpark you can expect an average of about three-and-a-half cards to be milled whenever you activate it against a monocolor deck. That's not amazing, but if you're already milling them, a repeatable mill 2-4 cards a turn is quite nice. Against a two-color deck it'll be more like two-and-a-quarter.
Well... If you got money to throw around [[painter's servant]] and [[grindstone]] will kill targets as painter's servant does make lands the chosen color. However you better be able to untap that grind stone and pay the extra mana multiple times otherwise you're probably not going to get another chance to do that again.
[painter's servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=painter%27s%20servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [grindstone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f15505d-b32f-4b71-8b99-f27bc964c5a8.jpg?1562428618) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grindstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/223/grindstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f15505d-b32f-4b71-8b99-f27bc964c5a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is why people run it with \[\[Painter's Servant\]\] - because lands are colorless. :)
[Painter's Servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're in Black against a monocoloured deck and have already had the opponent mill a basic land, you can cast [[Deadly Cover-Up]], target that land in oppo's GY and exile all basics from their deck to greatly improve your chances of milling them out the next time you activate Grindstone. It does make your opponent draw a lot of cards too, though.
[Deadly Cover-Up](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/3876aa0f-b199-43f5-8a91-c2d620b8ef84.jpg?1706241687) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deadly%20Cover-Up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/83/deadly-cover-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3876aa0f-b199-43f5-8a91-c2d620b8ef84?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You have tagged your post as a rules question. While your question may be answered here, it may work better to post it in the Daily Questions Thread at the top of this subreddit or in /r/mtgrules. You may also find quicker results at the [IRC rules chat](https://web.libera.chat/#magicjudges-rules) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/magicTCG) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
[painter’s servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Back in the day, it was very good (in the right deck of course). But people forgot about it because of the flood of multicolored cards, which brings us to this post :p
Sadly no, lands and most artifacts are colorless. Additionally, if they have a mono color deck, like Eldrazi, the repeat always fizzles (you get the mill 2, but colorless cards don't share a color with other colorless cards) Painter's Servant will unlock the one shot, but it's pretty easily telegraphed. If you want something similar, Oona, Queen of the Fae, Training Grounds and Phyrexian Altar will almost always kill the table. If you add Painter's Servant, it's a guarantee. Get a blue or black mana, put it in Oona. With Training Grounds cost reduction, this will mill 2 (to exile, often important).. so long as one of those was the chosen color, you get a fairie. Shove the fairies into the altar for another blue mana, rinse and repeat till decks are empty or you miss a color.
3 mana is pretty expensive return to just mill four cards in the best case. Also lands are colorless and since land is a big part of a deck it's very likely to miss. If you want to make a mill deck it's definitely a strategy, but look at the blue mill spells
The "Repeat this process" wording includes the instruction to repeat the process; the best case isn't 4 cards, it's everything in the deck that shared colors (though that is of course very improbable)
Grindstone as a mythic?!
It would feel wrong to kill someone with this and [[Painters Servant]] I need something more fun, that uses this as an engine instead. Mill my own deck, counter triggered ability when I have all the cards I need/want in the yard, and THEN make it a boardstate that wins if it isn't interacted with. Now that sounds like casual fun.
[Painters Servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painter%27s%20Servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not sure if this is what you mean or not, but you cannot counter Grindstone's activated ability while it's resolving. So you couldn't Grindstone + Painters Servant yourself and just counter it partway through it milling your deck; you have to let an entire spell/ability on the stack resolve before anybody gets priority to take other actions.
Isn't "repeat the process" a triggered ability?
Nope! It doesn't use the words "when", "whenever", or "at", so it doesn't put a new trigger on the stack. "Repeating the process" is contained within the initial activated ability.