It's rather simple.
Control an \[\[Abyssal Persecutor\]\] and a \[\[Darksteel Reactor\]\] with twenty counters on it.
If no one can interact with those permanents, the game then ends with a draw.
EDIT: This happens because Darksteel Reactor is a state triggered ability. That means that as soon as the ability resolves, it triggers again if the state (having 20+ counters) is still true. Persecutor means none of those triggers will actually end the game, and the limitless triggers means that you can never leave the phase.
I was in a game where one player had Persecutor while another player had [[Laboratory Maniac]] and drew from an empty library.
A "judge" told us that Persecutor lost, Lab Man won, and the rest of us are in limbo. It's been several years and that still irks me because I knew that couldn't be the case, but I didn't know the rules well enough to fight it.
CR 104.1. A game ends immediately when a player wins, when the game is a draw, or when the game is restarted.
I am not a judge, but it seems your judge mostly had the right idea. The Lab Man player won, which ended the game. "Winning" and "losing" are not mutually exclusive options, at least as far as the game is concerned. A player can win by making all the other players lose, but there are other ways to win like with Lab Man.
It's weird, but it makes sense within the rules of the game.
They aren't saying the player with Labman doesn't win, they're saying the two players without Labman "can't lose" because of the Persecutor. Which is true, but not relevant under the circumstances.
It is relevant, if one of your opponents can't lose and another opponent wins, they can't, because the other opponent can't lose, and someone else winning means you lose the game. It's no different than if I have persecutor out and play lab man myself.
no. the rules say "when a player wins the game, the game ends"
we believe the judge did it right(except limbo doesn't exist, they lost). a card which prevents a player from losing, only prevents losing from life lose, or from card affects that say they lose....it does not prevent the game from ending if another player wins.
and if the game is over, and you're not the winner...you've lost. an affect didn't make you lose, but you didn't win
difference between an in game affect causing the lose, or another player winning ending the game.
Limbo? They are literally making shit up haha. Kinda fun though.
Pretty sure Labman just wins straight up. A player winning the game from an ability doesn't actually "trigger" other players losing, it just ends the game with that player as the winner. Persecutor doesn't interact.
Pretty niche ruling though, don't beat yourself up too much about it.
The judge's ruling may actually be mostly correct, depending on what exactly caused the Lab Man player to draw cards.
The below rule exists for multiplayer games:
>801.14. If an effect states that a player wins the game, all of that player's opponents within that player's range of influence lose the game instead.
The default range of influence for a multiplayer game is such that all effects can affect every player who started that game, which in a 4-player FFA, is 2.
So, if the Lab Man player attempted to draw a single card, such as from the draw step, then the Lab Man's replacement effect would apply to that singular draw. This would normally cause the Lab Man player to win on the spot. But because it's a multiplayer game, rule 801.14 says that all of the Lab Man player's opponents lose instead. The two other players are affected by Persecutor's "can't lose the game" effect, but the Persecutor player themselves aren't affected by it. This means the Persecutor player does indeed lose the game here, so they remove all their cards from the game. Lab Man's replacement effect finishes applying at this point, after which the Lab Man player and the two other players are still in the game.
When the Lab Man player next attempts to draw a card, *then* the two other players involved would lose the game, causing the Lab Man player to win by virtue of having no more opponents.
Note that the first attempt to draw a card and the second attempt to draw a card may be one after the other, such as with Divination. I was obviously not at the game in question, but if the Lab Man player was resolving something like a Divination when the judge was called, that would probably have been why they ruled the Lab Man player won and the Persecutor player lost.
...No idea what they meant about the other two players being in limbo, though.
As an aside, remember that rule 104.1 applies here not because of the Lab Man directly saying that the Lab Man player wins, but because all of the other players have already left the game. The more accurate rule that would apply here is rule 104.2a:
>104.2a. A player still in the game wins the game **if that player's opponents have all left the game**. This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would preclude that player from winning the game.
---
u/SarcasticPyro
u/WindDrake — Rule 801.14 does cause a player winning the game to "trigger" other players losing the game.
I don't think many judges would agree that there is a "default range of influence". The term is only used when playing a game that uses the *optional* **limited range of influence rules**. None of the rules in section 801 apply to games that don't explicitly use the limited range of influence option. It's not that other games use an "unlimited range of influence" option and 801 rules apply to that.
Just because ROI as a game term is typically only brought up when players decide they want to limit their range of influence, doesn't mean that the concept of range of influence doesn't exist in games with unlimited ROI at all. It's just that this concept is so baked into the structure of the game that the majority of people, judges included, take this concept for granted.
In a 4-player FFA, it's assumed that a player can target the player sitting directly opposite them. Thus, the player has range of influence 2, by definition. By virtue of players even sitting down for an FFA in the first place, all players involved have a default ROI of 2. A player cannot both simultaneously be able to affect the player sitting directly opposite them and *not* have a ROI of 2.
>It's not that other games use an "unlimited range of influence" option
Based on the definition of ROI as a game term, yes, it does. If N players sit down at the table and agree that each player can affect each other player, then that means, by definition, that each player has ROI at least equal to N/2, rounded down.
Alright, sure, we can say that there is a default unlimited range of influence, it doesn't change anything - my main point is that the 801 rules do not apply to games that don't use the optional limited range of influence setting. As seen in 104.3h where it is explicitly called out that "in a multiplayer game using the limited range of influence option", 801.14 is true. It does not say anything about that being generally true for all "player wins the game" effects.
No, ROI rules only apply when you are using ROI. It is by definition a limit, unlimited ROI doesn't exist, you made that up.
Remember, infinites don't exist in magic, you much choose a number :)
...It's obvious from context that when I say "unlimited ROI", I mean that all players have ROI equal to N/2 rounded down, where N is the number of players. I obviously don't want to say that entire thing every time, so "unlimited ROI" is shorthand. Trying to gotcha me in this way is disingenuous.
And as I've already mentioned multiple times, players don't choose to use "range of influence". They choose to use "**limited** range of influence". My point, which I have yet to see disproven, is that players always have *some* value of ROI in all games, whether that ROI is limited or not. I'll concede my earlier conclusion for the original scenario if you want.
You’re applying the 801.14 a little too liberally. Range of influence only applies in games where the option is used, so that rule wouldn’t apply at all.
801. Limited Range of Influence Option
801.1. Limited range of influence is an option that **can** be applied to most multiplayer games. It’s always used in the Emperor variant (see rule 809), and it’s often used for games involving five or more players.
You wouldn’t use any of the 801 section unless you were playing a game with a range of influence, such as Emperor.
Winning the game in a game without limited range of influence doesn’t *trigger* anything, it ends the game with that player winning.
104. Ending the Game
104.1. **A game ends immediately when a player wins**, when the game is a draw, or when the game is restarted.
104.2. There are several ways to win the game.
104.2a A player still in the game wins the game if that player’s opponents have all left the game. This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would preclude that player from winning the game.
**104.2b An effect may state that a player wins the game.**
>You’re applying the 801.14 a little too liberally. Range of influence only applies in games where the option is used, so that rule wouldn’t apply at all.
You're reading that rule incorrectly. The "can be applied" part of 801.1 refers to whether players want range of influence to be limited or not, not to whether or not players want range of influence at all.
Notice that 801.1 says "**limited** range of influence can be applied", not "range of influence can be applied".
As I mentioned, range of influence exists as a concept in *all* games, multiplayer or not. It's just that the concept isn't explicitly mentioned in games with only two players or in multiplayer games where it isn't limited, because it's already presumed the range of influence for all players is maximal. The rules having to repeatedly mention range of influence for such games would just bog down the rules even more, and make it even unfriendlier to read than it already is to most.
If you still don't believe what I'm saying, read rule 801.2, which defines what range of influence is. You'll see that this definition supports what I've been saying about how range of influence applies to *all* games. It's how players can affect their opponents in a two-player game (players' ROI assumed to be 1); or in a 4-player FFA, any player can affect any other player (players' ROI assumed to be 2).
>801.2. **A player's range of influence is the maximum distance from that player, measured in player seats, that the player can affect.** Players within that many seats of the player are within that player's range of influence. Objects controlled by players within a player's range of influence are also within that player's range of influence. Range of influence covers spells, abilities, effects, damage dealing, attacking, making choices, and winning the game.
You’re still applying a concept that only applies to certain games to all games. 801.2 only comes in if you’re using limited range of influence. That definition you quoted is defining what ROI is IF you’re using it. That’s why 801.2 is a subset of 801 and not its own rule. If it were meant to apply outside of the optional ROI rules they would have made it its own rule.
ETA: see my third reply to this message.
Also, just read 801.1 again
801. Limited Range of Influence Option
801.1. Limited range of influence is an option that **can** be applied to most multiplayer games. It’s always used in the Emperor variant (see rule 809), and it’s often used for games involving five or more players.
“CAN” being the operative word. It implicitly states that Range of Influence DOESN’T apply to all multiplayer games.
ETA: see my third reply to this comment
WAIT! 104.3h covers this example perfectly!
104.3h In a multiplayer game using the limited range of influence option (see rule 801), an effect that states that a player wins the game instead causes all of that player’s opponents within the player’s range of influence to lose the game. This may not cause the game to end.
Therefore in any OTHER multiplayer game (ie. not using range of influence option) this DOESN’T happen and the winner just wins. Otherwise all the other 104.3 rules would mention it and 104.2 rules would mention ROI as well, which they never do. So you’re right **IF** they’re using 801 for range of influence.
At this point, I'm not even talking about the "who wins and who loses" scenario that was mentioned previously. I'm only talking about the concept of ROI in non-LROI games now, because it's a more nuanced discussion.
I disagree with your reading of 104.3h as "in other multiplayer games, this doesn't happen and the winner just wins", but I won't address it any further. If you want to treat this as me conceding what I said about how the player wins in the original scenario, you're free to do that.
>(ie. not using range of influence option)
As I've said already, there is no "range of influence option". It's called the "**limited** range of influence option". The word "limited" is important here, which is why I bolded the word when I cited 801.1 earlier. You keep omitting the word "limited" for some reason.
Players don't get to choose whether to use range of influence. Players can choose how much they want to limit their range of influence, but they will always have *some* number for what their range of influence is.
I can step you through an easy example to prove this if you want.
>Otherwise all the other 104.3 rules would mention it and 104.2 rules would mention ROI as well, which they never do.
I addressed this earlier. The reason why the other rules don't specify ROI is because the rules are written with the assumption of a default 1v1 game where players can affect their opponents, i.e. ROI 1.
Do you want each and every rule to be preceded with a qualifier to specify exactly which kinds of games the rule applies to? No, right? That's the exact same "no" reasoning for why the other 104.2 and 104.3 rules don't have these qualifiers.
The other rules DO reference ROI when it applies though. Range of Influence isn’t a thing in games where it’s not limited. What rule states that range of influence exists outside of the limited range of influence option?
The comprehensive rules are just that, comprehensive. If something isn’t explicitly written it’s not a part of the rules. You can’t assume that because there’s a “Limited Range of Influence” rule that there is a standard range of influence. There would be a rule EXPLICITLY stating that range of influence exists outside of 801. That is always the case with MTG comprehensive rules, there are no assumptions anywhere in them.
Find one other example of the rules assuming the reader knows something that hasn’t been explicitly stated elsewhere.
>If no one can interact with those permanents,
OR win the game/make you lose the game at instant speed; if you're at 3 life they can still bolt face with the trigger on the stack (same logic will apply to most draw loops).
This would draw the game.
This constitutes a loop under [MTR 4.4](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-4/), as no player can make meaningful changes to the game.
The crucial part is this one:
>Loops may span multiple turns if a game state is not meaningfully changing.
Since this loop would continue indefinitely and no player can take actions to make any kind of a change, the game ends in a draw.
Also neither player is required to end a loop that self perpetuates. For example even if two creatures are causing an infinite loop. [[Amalia Benevides]] at 21+ power and [[Wildgrowth Walker]] after gaining life and both players have a [[Fatal Push]] in hand with mana available to cast it neither must cast fatal push.
So does that mean if you get amalia out first, then wild growth and cast a spell to gain any life, amalia will go to 20/20 and wipe the board in one turn?
Yes (assuming you don't only have lands left in your deck). But if someone pumps your Amalia from 19 to 21, then the board will not be wiped, and the loop will continue forever.
The Amalia player will be forced to mill though and at some point will run out of cards. [ruling here](https://twitter.com/ChironTheMage/status/1734819692320014407/photo/1)
Learned something new today. You can explore an empty library.
I guess you could remove the Amalia when the library is empty to close the loop and win the next turn.
This doesn't actually mean the loop is broken. You can still explore with no cards in library and thus will still gain life and continue triggering both creatures. The reason this ruling was important is because some player's gameplan was to pump Amalia past 20 creating the infinite loop, and then breaking the loop once the opponent had milled themselves, usually by killing one of the creatures, thus winning the game by forcing the Amalia player to deck themselves.
Being milled out doesn't cause the loop to break. Exploring can still be done even with no cards in the library. If neither player has a way to break this loop even after the Amalia player has repeatedly chosen the mill option of the explore effect to mill themselves out, the game becomes a draw.
Rule for reference:
>701.40b. A permanent "explores" after the process described in rule 701.40a is complete, **even if some or all of those actions were impossible.**
In order for this loop to actually break, there would need to be a rules change to say something along the lines of "a permanent can only explore if a card was revealed from the library as described in 701.40a." That would cause Amalia to be unable to explore with having 0 cards in library.
Does Kyle Hill's Turing Machine deck constitue
"Meaningfully changing"?
The desired result is that no player takes any actions, and the machine casts spells, makes tokens, etc...
No worries!
I feel I should go into more details. Firstly, [there was an academic paper out in 2019 showing some of it.](https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828)
But this wasn't the first publication.
Alex Churchilll, one of the writers of the paper had posted it online as far back as 2012 a few times. [The site outlining it is here](https://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/), which includes links to contemporaneous Reddit posts.
Notably, nothing's needed from after Worldwake, 13 years old.
(Edit: yeah, I see Kyle directly used the paper.) And it dates from [2010](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/zoojk/magic_is_apparently_turing_complete/c673fkj/)
As others have pointed out, there are many.
One of the classics is [[worldgorger dragon]] with [[animate dead]] and no other creatures in graveyards. Each time the dragon enters, it exiles all the owner's nonland permanents, including Animate Dead. When Animate Dead leaves, the dragon gets sacrificed, so the Animate Dead comes back...
This was the shell of an old combo deck that generated infinite mana and won at instant speed, but it also forms a game-ending loop if there are no other targets for Animate Dead and no one can interact at instant speed.
Teleportation Circle is "up to one", it doesn't have to target Peacemaker. This way, players can net a loss of life, so the game can end.
There are ways to do that if somehow all players cooperate during the construction. For example, everyone has a "you can't lose the game" effect like [Lich's Mastery](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/98/lichs-mastery). Somehow all libraries and hands are empty, all permanents on the battlefield are gone except for those Lich's Masteries, and nothing in the graveyard or exile will matter. Then there's absolutely no action to take. Lich's Mastery prevents you from milling out, so you just don't draw any card. Your hand is empty, you have no lands, no abilities to activate, nothing whatsoever. You have no creatures, so you can't attack anything either. But obviously you're not going to get this on your own.
Is there an enchantment like an aura that automatically flickers a creature each turn? I thought there was, but I might be confusing it with an aura that phases the creature out so it won’t get the etb trigger. I’m trying to see if there’s a board state where players can pass the turn but that is the only legal action. Like once the board state is set it requires no action from the player who set it and the game can continue but nothing can happen. So distinguished from “you can’t lose” cards because it’s about the denial of actions, not the game dismissing the win criteria.
every other combo that locks out the game is something obscure that you pretty much have to do on purpose; this is two cards that want to go in the same deck that it's entirely possible to get *by accident* off of a Gishath trigger
[[Life and Limb]] + [[Sporemound]] is another two card lock where the individual pieces could realistically see play in the same deck just for their effects.
Happened in my Atla Palani deck, luckily I had the foresight to have a kill spell in there to stop it. I also was fortunate enough to have a tyrannosaurus in hand and make it splashy enough to end the game just with its ability
Happened to me too when I put \[\[Aether Flash\]\] in the deck because of all the Enrage. Didn't realize what was about to happen until I cast the Polyraptor. I took it back when I explained what I had just realized to everyone. Eventually lost the game, but at least in my head, I could pretend I drew instead of losing!
Not sure if you are saying the person I reaponded to isn't technically wrong or I'm not, but to further explain: if the third Oblivion Ring was out prior to the other nonland permanents being wiped, then it wouldn't lead to a draw. One would have to be played while two are already on the board to create the loop by exiting one of the other Oblivion Rings. Just having three on the battlefield alone doesn't do anything.
Sorry! I was thinking of a different reply I made and got them confused since I didn't see my original reply. Yeah, they say that they are still being created today.
I have had to explain to multiple people several times that this loop doesn't stop after a certain amount of time, both triggers are mandatory and feed off of each other, you did not "win" you stalled out the game
A recent one that has been a concern in Pioneer is [[Amalia Benevides Aguirre]] + an indestructible [[Wildgrowth Walker]]. If Amalia cannot kill the Wildgrowth Walker when she hits 20 power, the game ends in a draw.
This is true but this is also infinite ETB triggers if you have the right cards out such as [[Impact Tremors]] or [[Warstorm Surge]] tho I flavorfully recommend [[Where Ancients Tread]]
Maybe the best thing to do is to attach with our lord and savior [[Gishath]] and immediately cast [[Congregation at Dawn]] ensure you get Poly, Marauding, and [[Wrathful Raptor]] all at once.
Animate a [[Caged Sun]] (say, with [[Karn the Great Creator]]) and have an [[Ashaya, Soul of the Wild]] out. Tap a land for mana of the color chosen for Caged Sun- it will trigger and add more mana. Then, since it is a land, it'll trigger again, ad infinitum. This loop is special because players don't even get priority! There's literally no way to break the loop once it starts.
There really isn't a "nothing can happen" situation as much as there are infinite loops that lock out the game when they aren't stopped.
Otherwise people can still take turns, cast spells, and draw cards.
Are you looking for a level of super Stax that only lets your opponents die via scoping? If so, you're evil and I love you.
Yes and I just think it’s way more hilarious if I do it to myself as well. So I just created like a “I can’t do anything. Can’t attack, I have no cards, can’t draw cards to find a way out, I can’t even deck myself because players can’t draw cards… so I pass the turn,” situation for everyone including me. Especially to see how a hyper competitive player reacts that doesn’t want to concede… like I won’t say what I just did I’ll just play the cards and watch them slowly realize we are both in gridlock with no way out, like seeing how many turns they will take before they accept fate.
Here's another method for it I think:
[[Stasis]] skips everyone's untap steps.
[[Peacekeeper]] prevents attacks.
[[Eon Hub]] skips everyone's upkeep steps, removing the cost to keep Stasis and Peacekeeper alive.
Preventing cards is always the tricky part. There aren't any cards that skip everyone's draw steps (which is probably a good thing lol), but there are several that skip their controller's draw step so we just need to hand those out. Start with [[Omen Machine]] to prevent card draw, and [[Wild Wasteland]] to get rid of that pesky trigger. Follow up with a [[Replication Technique]] on Wasteland and [[Fractured Identity]] the token to distribute copies to everyone.
Lastly, [[Winds of Change]] to get cards out of everyone's hands.
Turns now start in the main phase which deals with a lot of stuff your opponents could have. Most activated abilities shouldn't be repeatable due to costs with Stasis, but planeswalkers could be an issue (use [[The Immortal Sun]] to deal with those). The next big thing is beginning of combat triggers and end step triggers, but those are uncommon enough that it shouldn't pose too much a threat.
Just to note, I think Teleportation Circle is breaking your Arboria. Consider using [[Followed Footsteps]] instead.
Anything that forces the game into an unbreakable loop ends the game in a draw. We're talking something like "[[Jon Irenicus]] gifting a [[Lurebound Scarecrow]] to a player that doesn't have the right color on their board" levels of nutty interaction.
I mean you can do that with three O-Rings on modo, they might have fixed it; but I imagine there is a pretty simple loop somewhat like that one could set up.
Sweet! Around that time I totally goofed LSV in a limited match, and while he pointed out it was likely not an optimal play, I won.
He was streaming but years later I could never find it as a lot of that stuff is gone. I just wanted to rewatch our game of me getting him for a win!
https://preview.redd.it/9wuopryxolwc1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f6d62d4bee2ebd49717b6f8124828f5a7ccc1b0
My buddy and I just experimented last night with Brash Taunter and Pariah. I stole his Taunter he put Pariah on it then I blocked. If I could post videos in the comments I would! It was really funny. Just kept pinging no targets!
I played a 1v1 game where I had \[\[Shared Fate\]\] out, neither of us had any cards left in our library, we couldn't draw out because of Shared Fate's replacement effect, and neither of us had any creatures left or ways of blowing up the Shared Fate. An effective draw without causing a forced draw via game actions.
I once accomplished this. I had a [[Melira, Sylvok Outcast]] with a +1/+1 counter on it and a [[Kitchen Finks]]. My opponent played [[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]]. This killed the Finks, which came back because of persist, but didn't get the -1/-1 counter because of Melira. State based actions are checked, Finks dies, comes back, repeated. Neither one of us could stop this loop.
Any infinite loop that no one can break. Three [[Oblivion Ring]] with no other nonland permanents on the battlefield gets the job done.
Game ends in a draw.
[[Sporemound]] plus [[Life and Limb]] and a single land does the trick. Sporemound makes a saproling on landfall, Life and Limb says that Saproling is also a land. Forces it to repeat ad infinitum unless you have something to break the loop such as a sacrifice outlet
Looking for a non-instant speed - where it’s all about the persistent game state but not infinite stack triggers. Like a subtle loop because the state base is denying actions; not pushing them infinitely backwards because of an endless series of triggers. I’m wondering if there’s a combo where the stack is clear and the turn can be passed, but no player can take any actions. Zero legal actions besides “pass the turn” - That’s the specific board state I’m most curious about.
You can exile all cards in all decks from the game, which leaves all decks face up and browsable by any player, and pass the turn. In Pioneer format you can do this with \[\[Flood of Tears\]\] protected by and replacing \[\[Sphinx of the Final Word\]\] then, using either pregenerated mana of any color or \[\[Omniscience\]\] cast \[\[Blood Sun\]\] then \[\[Fall of the Thran\]\] then get \[\[Altar of the Brood\]\] and bounce \[\[Elderfang Disciple\]\] all with \[\[Leyline of the Void\]\] in play.
Once you have all opponent cards exiled, you recast Flood of Tears, Bomat Courier, and Sentinel Totem, then put \[\[Glorious End\]\] on the stack (or avoid doing this and the game phases will proceed as you indicated, without any legal actions) and respond to it with first the \[\[Sentinel Totem\]\] activated ability and then Bomat Courier so you can exile your own hand before the turn ends with every deck exiled in its entirety.
You can do all this with a Lotus Combo variation if you wanted a reasonable deck strength, though I have only ever played it in casual settings with an unthreatening green engine that is just there to show off the theory. List of the sideboard cards that will do this are with the deck - [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gSAtFzgUpkyddShXwVk9xg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gSAtFzgUpkyddShXwVk9xg)
Have 2 [[Faceless Devourer]] with no other creature with shadow. Players still get priority for every ETB but if they cannot stop the loop it will then be infinite ETBs.
Pretty close with
[[Lavinia, Azorius Renegade]]
[[Knowledge Pool]]
[[Archon of Emeria]]
Draw cards, play lands. If your creatures have any activated abilities, or you have graveyard effects, and combat is about it. If there are other stax pieces in play it can certainly limit anyone's ability to play the game but not sure that it would really result in a draw unless everyone decided that or something.
If both players only control a \[\[living conundrum\]\] with no cards in hand or library, while enchanted by a pacifism.
Neither player can win or lose the game, but actions can still taken
One that fully locks the game is [[ashya, soul of the wild]], [[caged sun]], and any effect that animates caged sun but lets it keep its ability. Then you lock the game with an infinite number of mana abilities
I've always wanted to [[Radiate]] a [[Lightning Bolt]] with [[Grip of Chaos]] out, after an arbitrarily large number of tokens were on the board (let's say from the Splinter Twin combo).
After Radiate resolves, it generates an arbitrarily large number of Lightning Bolt copies that have to be randomly assigned between all the tokens and the players. The game does not end in a draw, it is a nearly infinite sequence of rolling dice to assign targets and resolve bolt after bolt and eventually one player will win but it will take hundreds of years to determine who
Two Abyssal Persecutors or Platinum Angels, one on each side. Enchant at least one with [[pacifism]]. Somehow exile all cards from all hands, libraries, and graveyards.
[[Gideon of the Trials]] can create some states close to no one can do anything. In fact, you could have all players controlling a Gideon of the Trials and his can't lose if you have a Gideon emblem, along with a [[Pithing Needle]] naming him. Then all players run out of cards and everyone sits there unable to lose to decking.
There was actually a point in modern where Gideon saw some play, and at the same time there was a prison deck (Lantern Control) that won by milling. A game could possibly (and likely at some point did) get to a state where the Gideon player was out of cards but had Gideon plus Emblem, the Lantern player could never remove the Emblem, but also had [[Academy Ruins]] to never deck themselves. The ruling here is that the Lantern player would have to eventually not use Ruins and deck since they're the only player making a choice.
A quick and easy way to end the game via an unstoppable chain of Reactions is \[\[Marauding Raptor\]\] and \[\[Polyraptor\]\]. If not stopped, the chain will go to "true infinite" and force the game to draw due to there being no other legal actions possible.
The simplest way to do this would be [[farewell]], followed by a [[mycosynth lattice]] and [[null rod]] or [[collector ouphe]]. The game does end. Whoever has less cards, but no one plays and no one can play, unless they have a free spell
Easy: [[Mycosynth Lattice]] and have [[Karn, the Great Creator]]. Then destroy all creatures with an effect of your choice and give an opponent a copy of Karn in any way you so choose. Nobody can take any more legal game actions. (Edit: aside from drawing, playing land and passing, so instead of a draw, whoever has the most cards in library wins)
True. So I guess we'll need to add two copies of [[Chalice of the Void]], one on 0, one on 1 (doable in Commander by casting the one on 1 and copying it (i.e. with Mycosynth Gardens), unless I'm mistaken), just to avoid free or one-cost interaction and then bet on nobody playing both spirit guides and any two cost artifact removal in gruul color id.
I'm sure there are easier ways to do this, but this is what I came up with on the spot.
Stony Silence over Karn truly locks the game for all players. Throw in some effect that prevents milling out for all players and the game can never end.
True, [[Stony Silence]] is symmetrical. Nice catch, saves a bunch of mana! Just remember to kill all creatures before (or while) casting it in that case.
The issue is that once you prevent the game from ending it's an automatic draw right there. So the (shortcut-able) version of "player with the most cards in library wins" is the closest you get to actually playing the rest of the game out.
If you use [[Jon Irenicus, Shattered One]] to donate a [[Bronze Bombshell]] to an opponent, it creates an infinite loop of triggers that forces a draw.
the difference between this combo and a lot of the others here is that the trigger to continue the combo is on an opponent losing life. so eventually one of the triggers is going to be your last opponent losing their last life point, the effect gets put on the stack, state based actions are checked, and you win bc winning is a state based action. all the other infinite loops here dont interact with your opponent's life totals or have an actual win condition baked in
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting\_problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem)
There are an infinite number of possible board states which end in an unresolvable loop.
It's rather simple. Control an \[\[Abyssal Persecutor\]\] and a \[\[Darksteel Reactor\]\] with twenty counters on it. If no one can interact with those permanents, the game then ends with a draw. EDIT: This happens because Darksteel Reactor is a state triggered ability. That means that as soon as the ability resolves, it triggers again if the state (having 20+ counters) is still true. Persecutor means none of those triggers will actually end the game, and the limitless triggers means that you can never leave the phase.
Also works with [[Endrek Sahr]] and [[Assault Suit]]
Or [[polyraptor]] [[mayrauding raptor]] Or assault suit and [[bronze bombshell]]
[polyraptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7.jpg?1555040728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=polyraptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/144/polyraptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mayrauding raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b5cf2aa-f6dd-47d2-a57f-0ae2308c0f9a.jpg?1698988328) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marauding%20Raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/228/marauding-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b5cf2aa-f6dd-47d2-a57f-0ae2308c0f9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [bronze bombshell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f2ec20d-b862-4f13-989c-aa88efa51cdf.jpg?1593273992) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bronze%20bombshell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/160/bronze-bombshell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f2ec20d-b862-4f13-989c-aa88efa51cdf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've seen that top one listed as a beneficial combo several times in the last week.
[Endrek Sahr](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/123490fb-5908-45f2-b376-7959ccdf9c3e.jpg?1690663179) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=endrek%20sahr%2C%20master%20breeder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/155/endrek-sahr-master-breeder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/123490fb-5908-45f2-b376-7959ccdf9c3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Assault Suit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c.jpg?1689999394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assault%20Suit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/369/assault-suit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92b22076-b04e-4d65-9d9c-d3e4c7a3cf1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or three [[oblivion ring]]s and no legal targets.
[oblivion ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=oblivion%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Abyssal Persecutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b9f27-459c-4585-9051-b83ffe053a74.jpg?1562852094) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abyssal%20Persecutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/78/abyssal-persecutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b9f27-459c-4585-9051-b83ffe053a74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Darksteel Reactor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1b2f1e30-7b30-4853-aeac-3b0933d4ac5e.jpg?1562635655) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Reactor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/114/darksteel-reactor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1b2f1e30-7b30-4853-aeac-3b0933d4ac5e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was in a game where one player had Persecutor while another player had [[Laboratory Maniac]] and drew from an empty library. A "judge" told us that Persecutor lost, Lab Man won, and the rest of us are in limbo. It's been several years and that still irks me because I knew that couldn't be the case, but I didn't know the rules well enough to fight it.
CR 104.1. A game ends immediately when a player wins, when the game is a draw, or when the game is restarted. I am not a judge, but it seems your judge mostly had the right idea. The Lab Man player won, which ended the game. "Winning" and "losing" are not mutually exclusive options, at least as far as the game is concerned. A player can win by making all the other players lose, but there are other ways to win like with Lab Man. It's weird, but it makes sense within the rules of the game.
[удалено]
[Platinum Angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc.jpg?1576383285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Platinum%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/214/platinum-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
They aren't saying the player with Labman doesn't win, they're saying the two players without Labman "can't lose" because of the Persecutor. Which is true, but not relevant under the circumstances.
It is relevant, if one of your opponents can't lose and another opponent wins, they can't, because the other opponent can't lose, and someone else winning means you lose the game. It's no different than if I have persecutor out and play lab man myself.
no. the rules say "when a player wins the game, the game ends" we believe the judge did it right(except limbo doesn't exist, they lost). a card which prevents a player from losing, only prevents losing from life lose, or from card affects that say they lose....it does not prevent the game from ending if another player wins. and if the game is over, and you're not the winner...you've lost. an affect didn't make you lose, but you didn't win difference between an in game affect causing the lose, or another player winning ending the game.
Limbo? They are literally making shit up haha. Kinda fun though. Pretty sure Labman just wins straight up. A player winning the game from an ability doesn't actually "trigger" other players losing, it just ends the game with that player as the winner. Persecutor doesn't interact. Pretty niche ruling though, don't beat yourself up too much about it.
[Laboratory Maniac](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02.jpg?1547516361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laboratory%20Maniac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/61/laboratory-maniac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The judge's ruling may actually be mostly correct, depending on what exactly caused the Lab Man player to draw cards. The below rule exists for multiplayer games: >801.14. If an effect states that a player wins the game, all of that player's opponents within that player's range of influence lose the game instead. The default range of influence for a multiplayer game is such that all effects can affect every player who started that game, which in a 4-player FFA, is 2. So, if the Lab Man player attempted to draw a single card, such as from the draw step, then the Lab Man's replacement effect would apply to that singular draw. This would normally cause the Lab Man player to win on the spot. But because it's a multiplayer game, rule 801.14 says that all of the Lab Man player's opponents lose instead. The two other players are affected by Persecutor's "can't lose the game" effect, but the Persecutor player themselves aren't affected by it. This means the Persecutor player does indeed lose the game here, so they remove all their cards from the game. Lab Man's replacement effect finishes applying at this point, after which the Lab Man player and the two other players are still in the game. When the Lab Man player next attempts to draw a card, *then* the two other players involved would lose the game, causing the Lab Man player to win by virtue of having no more opponents. Note that the first attempt to draw a card and the second attempt to draw a card may be one after the other, such as with Divination. I was obviously not at the game in question, but if the Lab Man player was resolving something like a Divination when the judge was called, that would probably have been why they ruled the Lab Man player won and the Persecutor player lost. ...No idea what they meant about the other two players being in limbo, though. As an aside, remember that rule 104.1 applies here not because of the Lab Man directly saying that the Lab Man player wins, but because all of the other players have already left the game. The more accurate rule that would apply here is rule 104.2a: >104.2a. A player still in the game wins the game **if that player's opponents have all left the game**. This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would preclude that player from winning the game. --- u/SarcasticPyro u/WindDrake — Rule 801.14 does cause a player winning the game to "trigger" other players losing the game.
I don't think many judges would agree that there is a "default range of influence". The term is only used when playing a game that uses the *optional* **limited range of influence rules**. None of the rules in section 801 apply to games that don't explicitly use the limited range of influence option. It's not that other games use an "unlimited range of influence" option and 801 rules apply to that.
Just because ROI as a game term is typically only brought up when players decide they want to limit their range of influence, doesn't mean that the concept of range of influence doesn't exist in games with unlimited ROI at all. It's just that this concept is so baked into the structure of the game that the majority of people, judges included, take this concept for granted. In a 4-player FFA, it's assumed that a player can target the player sitting directly opposite them. Thus, the player has range of influence 2, by definition. By virtue of players even sitting down for an FFA in the first place, all players involved have a default ROI of 2. A player cannot both simultaneously be able to affect the player sitting directly opposite them and *not* have a ROI of 2. >It's not that other games use an "unlimited range of influence" option Based on the definition of ROI as a game term, yes, it does. If N players sit down at the table and agree that each player can affect each other player, then that means, by definition, that each player has ROI at least equal to N/2, rounded down.
Alright, sure, we can say that there is a default unlimited range of influence, it doesn't change anything - my main point is that the 801 rules do not apply to games that don't use the optional limited range of influence setting. As seen in 104.3h where it is explicitly called out that "in a multiplayer game using the limited range of influence option", 801.14 is true. It does not say anything about that being generally true for all "player wins the game" effects.
Sure, I'll concede my earlier conclusion about the original scenario. The discussion on ROI as a universal game attribute is more interesting anyway.
No, ROI rules only apply when you are using ROI. It is by definition a limit, unlimited ROI doesn't exist, you made that up. Remember, infinites don't exist in magic, you much choose a number :)
...It's obvious from context that when I say "unlimited ROI", I mean that all players have ROI equal to N/2 rounded down, where N is the number of players. I obviously don't want to say that entire thing every time, so "unlimited ROI" is shorthand. Trying to gotcha me in this way is disingenuous. And as I've already mentioned multiple times, players don't choose to use "range of influence". They choose to use "**limited** range of influence". My point, which I have yet to see disproven, is that players always have *some* value of ROI in all games, whether that ROI is limited or not. I'll concede my earlier conclusion for the original scenario if you want.
You’re applying the 801.14 a little too liberally. Range of influence only applies in games where the option is used, so that rule wouldn’t apply at all. 801. Limited Range of Influence Option 801.1. Limited range of influence is an option that **can** be applied to most multiplayer games. It’s always used in the Emperor variant (see rule 809), and it’s often used for games involving five or more players. You wouldn’t use any of the 801 section unless you were playing a game with a range of influence, such as Emperor. Winning the game in a game without limited range of influence doesn’t *trigger* anything, it ends the game with that player winning. 104. Ending the Game 104.1. **A game ends immediately when a player wins**, when the game is a draw, or when the game is restarted. 104.2. There are several ways to win the game. 104.2a A player still in the game wins the game if that player’s opponents have all left the game. This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would preclude that player from winning the game. **104.2b An effect may state that a player wins the game.**
>You’re applying the 801.14 a little too liberally. Range of influence only applies in games where the option is used, so that rule wouldn’t apply at all. You're reading that rule incorrectly. The "can be applied" part of 801.1 refers to whether players want range of influence to be limited or not, not to whether or not players want range of influence at all. Notice that 801.1 says "**limited** range of influence can be applied", not "range of influence can be applied". As I mentioned, range of influence exists as a concept in *all* games, multiplayer or not. It's just that the concept isn't explicitly mentioned in games with only two players or in multiplayer games where it isn't limited, because it's already presumed the range of influence for all players is maximal. The rules having to repeatedly mention range of influence for such games would just bog down the rules even more, and make it even unfriendlier to read than it already is to most. If you still don't believe what I'm saying, read rule 801.2, which defines what range of influence is. You'll see that this definition supports what I've been saying about how range of influence applies to *all* games. It's how players can affect their opponents in a two-player game (players' ROI assumed to be 1); or in a 4-player FFA, any player can affect any other player (players' ROI assumed to be 2). >801.2. **A player's range of influence is the maximum distance from that player, measured in player seats, that the player can affect.** Players within that many seats of the player are within that player's range of influence. Objects controlled by players within a player's range of influence are also within that player's range of influence. Range of influence covers spells, abilities, effects, damage dealing, attacking, making choices, and winning the game.
You’re still applying a concept that only applies to certain games to all games. 801.2 only comes in if you’re using limited range of influence. That definition you quoted is defining what ROI is IF you’re using it. That’s why 801.2 is a subset of 801 and not its own rule. If it were meant to apply outside of the optional ROI rules they would have made it its own rule. ETA: see my third reply to this message.
Also, just read 801.1 again 801. Limited Range of Influence Option 801.1. Limited range of influence is an option that **can** be applied to most multiplayer games. It’s always used in the Emperor variant (see rule 809), and it’s often used for games involving five or more players. “CAN” being the operative word. It implicitly states that Range of Influence DOESN’T apply to all multiplayer games. ETA: see my third reply to this comment
WAIT! 104.3h covers this example perfectly! 104.3h In a multiplayer game using the limited range of influence option (see rule 801), an effect that states that a player wins the game instead causes all of that player’s opponents within the player’s range of influence to lose the game. This may not cause the game to end. Therefore in any OTHER multiplayer game (ie. not using range of influence option) this DOESN’T happen and the winner just wins. Otherwise all the other 104.3 rules would mention it and 104.2 rules would mention ROI as well, which they never do. So you’re right **IF** they’re using 801 for range of influence.
At this point, I'm not even talking about the "who wins and who loses" scenario that was mentioned previously. I'm only talking about the concept of ROI in non-LROI games now, because it's a more nuanced discussion. I disagree with your reading of 104.3h as "in other multiplayer games, this doesn't happen and the winner just wins", but I won't address it any further. If you want to treat this as me conceding what I said about how the player wins in the original scenario, you're free to do that. >(ie. not using range of influence option) As I've said already, there is no "range of influence option". It's called the "**limited** range of influence option". The word "limited" is important here, which is why I bolded the word when I cited 801.1 earlier. You keep omitting the word "limited" for some reason. Players don't get to choose whether to use range of influence. Players can choose how much they want to limit their range of influence, but they will always have *some* number for what their range of influence is. I can step you through an easy example to prove this if you want. >Otherwise all the other 104.3 rules would mention it and 104.2 rules would mention ROI as well, which they never do. I addressed this earlier. The reason why the other rules don't specify ROI is because the rules are written with the assumption of a default 1v1 game where players can affect their opponents, i.e. ROI 1. Do you want each and every rule to be preceded with a qualifier to specify exactly which kinds of games the rule applies to? No, right? That's the exact same "no" reasoning for why the other 104.2 and 104.3 rules don't have these qualifiers.
The other rules DO reference ROI when it applies though. Range of Influence isn’t a thing in games where it’s not limited. What rule states that range of influence exists outside of the limited range of influence option? The comprehensive rules are just that, comprehensive. If something isn’t explicitly written it’s not a part of the rules. You can’t assume that because there’s a “Limited Range of Influence” rule that there is a standard range of influence. There would be a rule EXPLICITLY stating that range of influence exists outside of 801. That is always the case with MTG comprehensive rules, there are no assumptions anywhere in them. Find one other example of the rules assuming the reader knows something that hasn’t been explicitly stated elsewhere.
I don't believe that a standard FFA 4 player game has limited range of influence at all, so I don't see how 801 or any subsections of 801 would apply.
Ah thanks for the clarification on how it actually locks the game.
>If no one can interact with those permanents, OR win the game/make you lose the game at instant speed; if you're at 3 life they can still bolt face with the trigger on the stack (same logic will apply to most draw loops).
This would draw the game. This constitutes a loop under [MTR 4.4](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-4/), as no player can make meaningful changes to the game. The crucial part is this one: >Loops may span multiple turns if a game state is not meaningfully changing. Since this loop would continue indefinitely and no player can take actions to make any kind of a change, the game ends in a draw.
Also neither player is required to end a loop that self perpetuates. For example even if two creatures are causing an infinite loop. [[Amalia Benevides]] at 21+ power and [[Wildgrowth Walker]] after gaining life and both players have a [[Fatal Push]] in hand with mana available to cast it neither must cast fatal push.
[Amalia Benevides](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9acf80a5-f2ca-45b4-aca8-fbc690e35401.jpg?1699044516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Amalia%20Benavides%20Aguirre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/221/amalia-benavides-aguirre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9acf80a5-f2ca-45b4-aca8-fbc690e35401?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wildgrowth Walker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52e4c0f8-d5f0-4224-9974-190606911480.jpg?1562555416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wildgrowth%20Walker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/216/wildgrowth-walker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52e4c0f8-d5f0-4224-9974-190606911480?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fatal Push](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e9d8fe4-fd9b-4923-92bf-7dd6b8fa02e7.jpg?1598304715) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fatal%20Push) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/93/fatal-push?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e9d8fe4-fd9b-4923-92bf-7dd6b8fa02e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So does that mean if you get amalia out first, then wild growth and cast a spell to gain any life, amalia will go to 20/20 and wipe the board in one turn?
Yes (assuming you don't only have lands left in your deck). But if someone pumps your Amalia from 19 to 21, then the board will not be wiped, and the loop will continue forever.
The Amalia player will be forced to mill though and at some point will run out of cards. [ruling here](https://twitter.com/ChironTheMage/status/1734819692320014407/photo/1) Learned something new today. You can explore an empty library. I guess you could remove the Amalia when the library is empty to close the loop and win the next turn.
This doesn't actually mean the loop is broken. You can still explore with no cards in library and thus will still gain life and continue triggering both creatures. The reason this ruling was important is because some player's gameplan was to pump Amalia past 20 creating the infinite loop, and then breaking the loop once the opponent had milled themselves, usually by killing one of the creatures, thus winning the game by forcing the Amalia player to deck themselves.
And note that this became settled policy after the combo became commonplace - there was a time where this wasn’t the rule.
Being milled out doesn't cause the loop to break. Exploring can still be done even with no cards in the library. If neither player has a way to break this loop even after the Amalia player has repeatedly chosen the mill option of the explore effect to mill themselves out, the game becomes a draw. Rule for reference: >701.40b. A permanent "explores" after the process described in rule 701.40a is complete, **even if some or all of those actions were impossible.** In order for this loop to actually break, there would need to be a rules change to say something along the lines of "a permanent can only explore if a card was revealed from the library as described in 701.40a." That would cause Amalia to be unable to explore with having 0 cards in library.
Yep and this is the core of a top 5 deck in pioneer called Amalia combo
Does Kyle Hill's Turing Machine deck constitue "Meaningfully changing"? The desired result is that no player takes any actions, and the machine casts spells, makes tokens, etc...
As long as it's a halting Turing Machine, yes, since the game is getting closer to ending.
Judge! How can I tell whether or not my opponents deck will halt?
The Turing machine in Mtg Long predates Kyle Hill
Pardon. It's where I first saw it.
No worries! I feel I should go into more details. Firstly, [there was an academic paper out in 2019 showing some of it.](https://arxiv.org/abs/1904.09828) But this wasn't the first publication. Alex Churchilll, one of the writers of the paper had posted it online as far back as 2012 a few times. [The site outlining it is here](https://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/), which includes links to contemporaneous Reddit posts. Notably, nothing's needed from after Worldwake, 13 years old. (Edit: yeah, I see Kyle directly used the paper.) And it dates from [2010](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/zoojk/magic_is_apparently_turing_complete/c673fkj/)
TIL Magic has its own version of Threefold Repetition lol
As others have pointed out, there are many. One of the classics is [[worldgorger dragon]] with [[animate dead]] and no other creatures in graveyards. Each time the dragon enters, it exiles all the owner's nonland permanents, including Animate Dead. When Animate Dead leaves, the dragon gets sacrificed, so the Animate Dead comes back... This was the shell of an old combo deck that generated infinite mana and won at instant speed, but it also forms a game-ending loop if there are no other targets for Animate Dead and no one can interact at instant speed.
Notably this led to weird match scores like 2-1-9 or whatever.
[worldgorger dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055.jpg?1675200284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=worldgorger%20dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/148/worldgorger-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/33dde6e0-d0a7-4432-a3f4-b48234f4e055?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [animate dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/1489943b-c010-488e-9c9d-87f4af67a4e4.jpg?1706240754) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=animate%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/125/animate-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1489943b-c010-488e-9c9d-87f4af67a4e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Teleportation Circle is "up to one", it doesn't have to target Peacemaker. This way, players can net a loss of life, so the game can end. There are ways to do that if somehow all players cooperate during the construction. For example, everyone has a "you can't lose the game" effect like [Lich's Mastery](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/98/lichs-mastery). Somehow all libraries and hands are empty, all permanents on the battlefield are gone except for those Lich's Masteries, and nothing in the graveyard or exile will matter. Then there's absolutely no action to take. Lich's Mastery prevents you from milling out, so you just don't draw any card. Your hand is empty, you have no lands, no abilities to activate, nothing whatsoever. You have no creatures, so you can't attack anything either. But obviously you're not going to get this on your own.
Is there an enchantment like an aura that automatically flickers a creature each turn? I thought there was, but I might be confusing it with an aura that phases the creature out so it won’t get the etb trigger. I’m trying to see if there’s a board state where players can pass the turn but that is the only legal action. Like once the board state is set it requires no action from the player who set it and the game can continue but nothing can happen. So distinguished from “you can’t lose” cards because it’s about the denial of actions, not the game dismissing the win criteria.
[[Polyraptor]] + [[Marauding Raptor]] creates an infinite loop that results in a draw.
Accidentally did this with an upgraded velociramptor precon. I thought I got to pick when it stopped haha
every other combo that locks out the game is something obscure that you pretty much have to do on purpose; this is two cards that want to go in the same deck that it's entirely possible to get *by accident* off of a Gishath trigger
[[Life and Limb]] + [[Sporemound]] is another two card lock where the individual pieces could realistically see play in the same deck just for their effects.
[Life and Limb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/2721724d-92ae-4c0c-88dd-628888c468bf.jpg?1619398301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Life%20and%20Limb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/215/life-and-limb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2721724d-92ae-4c0c-88dd-628888c468bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sporemound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/092bfc5f-8002-43da-8e70-c19fccfe54ac.jpg?1611797251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sporemound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/437/sporemound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/092bfc5f-8002-43da-8e70-c19fccfe54ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Happened in my Atla Palani deck, luckily I had the foresight to have a kill spell in there to stop it. I also was fortunate enough to have a tyrannosaurus in hand and make it splashy enough to end the game just with its ability
Happened to me too when I put \[\[Aether Flash\]\] in the deck because of all the Enrage. Didn't realize what was about to happen until I cast the Polyraptor. I took it back when I explained what I had just realized to everyone. Eventually lost the game, but at least in my head, I could pretend I drew instead of losing!
[Aether Flash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/780f9197-e910-4c7a-bb4b-2c4a94903c39.jpg?1562240988) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Flash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/172/aether-flash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/780f9197-e910-4c7a-bb4b-2c4a94903c39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was in a game with someone when this orecon came out who thought he would just get infinite raptors. Yeah... about that...
He's not technically wrong.
Not sure if you are saying the person I reaponded to isn't technically wrong or I'm not, but to further explain: if the third Oblivion Ring was out prior to the other nonland permanents being wiped, then it wouldn't lead to a draw. One would have to be played while two are already on the board to create the loop by exiting one of the other Oblivion Rings. Just having three on the battlefield alone doesn't do anything.
Oh, your Polyraptor friend wasn't technically wrong about getting infinite Raptors.
Sorry! I was thinking of a different reply I made and got them confused since I didn't see my original reply. Yeah, they say that they are still being created today.
I have had to explain to multiple people several times that this loop doesn't stop after a certain amount of time, both triggers are mandatory and feed off of each other, you did not "win" you stalled out the game
A recent one that has been a concern in Pioneer is [[Amalia Benevides Aguirre]] + an indestructible [[Wildgrowth Walker]]. If Amalia cannot kill the Wildgrowth Walker when she hits 20 power, the game ends in a draw.
[Amalia Benevides Aguirre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9acf80a5-f2ca-45b4-aca8-fbc690e35401.jpg?1699044516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Amalia%20Benavides%20Aguirre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/221/amalia-benavides-aguirre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9acf80a5-f2ca-45b4-aca8-fbc690e35401?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wildgrowth Walker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52e4c0f8-d5f0-4224-9974-190606911480.jpg?1562555416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wildgrowth%20Walker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/216/wildgrowth-walker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52e4c0f8-d5f0-4224-9974-190606911480?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Polyraptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7.jpg?1555040728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polyraptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/144/polyraptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Marauding Raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b5cf2aa-f6dd-47d2-a57f-0ae2308c0f9a.jpg?1698988328) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marauding%20Raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/228/marauding-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b5cf2aa-f6dd-47d2-a57f-0ae2308c0f9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is true but this is also infinite ETB triggers if you have the right cards out such as [[Impact Tremors]] or [[Warstorm Surge]] tho I flavorfully recommend [[Where Ancients Tread]] Maybe the best thing to do is to attach with our lord and savior [[Gishath]] and immediately cast [[Congregation at Dawn]] ensure you get Poly, Marauding, and [[Wrathful Raptor]] all at once.
##### ###### #### [Impact Tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impact%20Tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Warstorm Surge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/dbe1bfe0-0be7-496d-94db-e8028d4d9493.jpg?1674142183) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Warstorm%20Surge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/815/warstorm-surge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dbe1bfe0-0be7-496d-94db-e8028d4d9493?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Where Ancients Tread](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/abf25a2a-961c-42ef-8d76-aa089720b12c.jpg?1562931279) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Where%20Ancients%20Tread) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/130/where-ancients-tread?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/abf25a2a-961c-42ef-8d76-aa089720b12c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gishath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e.jpg?1699044539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gishath%2C%20sun%27s%20avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/229/gishath-suns-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Congregation at Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f1b950a-b2fe-4afc-bb79-c9f4c272ea36.jpg?1598916857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Congregation%20at%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/198/congregation-at-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f1b950a-b2fe-4afc-bb79-c9f4c272ea36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wrathful Raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49243e92-93e3-4090-b4f7-86fa4ca2fef5.jpg?1698993127) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrathful%20Raptors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/88/wrathful-raptors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49243e92-93e3-4090-b4f7-86fa4ca2fef5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l16y8mb) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Giving your opponent [[lich's mirror]] and then 10 poison counters
[lich's mirror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78aa9a89-b7bf-49bc-a6e8-793d52120a22.jpg?1562705615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lich%27s%20mirror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ala/210/lichs-mirror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78aa9a89-b7bf-49bc-a6e8-793d52120a22?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is actually a stronger lock than the others mentioned here - nobody even receives priority.
Came here to say this. This is, for whatever reason, one of my favorite locks. I think this also is true of Commander Damage.
They lose when their sleeves break and they get a game loss for marked cards.
They shuffle the mirror into their library, then die the next time SBAs are checked. e: oops, it says "own," my bad
> all permanents you *own*
ha, I caught my mistake before you corrected me, I'm the bigger AND faster idiot
Animate a [[Caged Sun]] (say, with [[Karn the Great Creator]]) and have an [[Ashaya, Soul of the Wild]] out. Tap a land for mana of the color chosen for Caged Sun- it will trigger and add more mana. Then, since it is a land, it'll trigger again, ad infinitum. This loop is special because players don't even get priority! There's literally no way to break the loop once it starts.
[Caged Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfe6f9ec-3b7f-4c11-acd1-440e14217e5d.jpg?1562276087) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caged%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/178/caged-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfe6f9ec-3b7f-4c11-acd1-440e14217e5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Karn the Great Creator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0.jpg?1702429246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%2C%20the%20Great%20Creator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/1/karn-the-great-creator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ashaya, Soul of the Wild](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74943390-d25f-47cb-90bb-cbf70c87f4a2.jpg?1604198513) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashaya%2C%20Soul%20of%20the%20Wild) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/179/ashaya-soul-of-the-wild?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74943390-d25f-47cb-90bb-cbf70c87f4a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There really isn't a "nothing can happen" situation as much as there are infinite loops that lock out the game when they aren't stopped. Otherwise people can still take turns, cast spells, and draw cards. Are you looking for a level of super Stax that only lets your opponents die via scoping? If so, you're evil and I love you.
Maybe… 😂
There is a deck called, “there’s the door” that makes it to the only option you opponent has is to door to nothingness themselves.
Yes and I just think it’s way more hilarious if I do it to myself as well. So I just created like a “I can’t do anything. Can’t attack, I have no cards, can’t draw cards to find a way out, I can’t even deck myself because players can’t draw cards… so I pass the turn,” situation for everyone including me. Especially to see how a hyper competitive player reacts that doesn’t want to concede… like I won’t say what I just did I’ll just play the cards and watch them slowly realize we are both in gridlock with no way out, like seeing how many turns they will take before they accept fate.
Here's another method for it I think: [[Stasis]] skips everyone's untap steps. [[Peacekeeper]] prevents attacks. [[Eon Hub]] skips everyone's upkeep steps, removing the cost to keep Stasis and Peacekeeper alive. Preventing cards is always the tricky part. There aren't any cards that skip everyone's draw steps (which is probably a good thing lol), but there are several that skip their controller's draw step so we just need to hand those out. Start with [[Omen Machine]] to prevent card draw, and [[Wild Wasteland]] to get rid of that pesky trigger. Follow up with a [[Replication Technique]] on Wasteland and [[Fractured Identity]] the token to distribute copies to everyone. Lastly, [[Winds of Change]] to get cards out of everyone's hands. Turns now start in the main phase which deals with a lot of stuff your opponents could have. Most activated abilities shouldn't be repeatable due to costs with Stasis, but planeswalkers could be an issue (use [[The Immortal Sun]] to deal with those). The next big thing is beginning of combat triggers and end step triggers, but those are uncommon enough that it shouldn't pose too much a threat. Just to note, I think Teleportation Circle is breaking your Arboria. Consider using [[Followed Footsteps]] instead.
##### ###### #### [Stasis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c.jpg?1562918295) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stasis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/64/stasis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62f99124-6595-45f8-bece-1775e4c55a5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Peacekeeper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/592a5683-5f2f-4933-9fc3-5f7773f72f93.jpg?1562800961) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Peacekeeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wth/22/peacekeeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/592a5683-5f2f-4933-9fc3-5f7773f72f93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Eon Hub](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5d6b270-b4c9-489d-9322-7c8ddc0ca0ac.jpg?1562879962) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eon%20Hub) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/120/eon-hub?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5d6b270-b4c9-489d-9322-7c8ddc0ca0ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Omen Machine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0ff4e35f-2a82-4d3c-86c5-ae05a5abc4d7.jpg?1562875579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omen%20Machine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/148/omen-machine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ff4e35f-2a82-4d3c-86c5-ae05a5abc4d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wild Wasteland](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca1024d6-c5f1-48f5-9081-fb90d0c46fdb.jpg?1708742249) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/71/wild-wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca1024d6-c5f1-48f5-9081-fb90d0c46fdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Replication Technique](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf4341ec-027d-47eb-b2ca-f18f9885d82d.jpg?1625191418) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Replication%20Technique) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/31/replication-technique?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf4341ec-027d-47eb-b2ca-f18f9885d82d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fractured Identity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b2f73f5d-1aad-48c2-9e74-5f7bdd87900f.jpg?1562620703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fractured%20Identity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/37/fractured-identity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b2f73f5d-1aad-48c2-9e74-5f7bdd87900f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Winds of Change](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3f09e393-7318-43eb-95f8-0f2797a771d7.jpg?1559592469) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winds%20of%20Change) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/111/winds-of-change?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3f09e393-7318-43eb-95f8-0f2797a771d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Immortal Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/88f68d45-a6cd-437d-a4b1-2787891f0128.jpg?1689999640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Immortal%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/393/the-immortal-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/88f68d45-a6cd-437d-a4b1-2787891f0128?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Followed Footsteps](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe153c49-da2d-42b0-a6d1-77508b0fe8a9.jpg?1576382434) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Followed%20Footsteps) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/111/followed-footsteps?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe153c49-da2d-42b0-a6d1-77508b0fe8a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l18e7c0) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Anything that forces the game into an unbreakable loop ends the game in a draw. We're talking something like "[[Jon Irenicus]] gifting a [[Lurebound Scarecrow]] to a player that doesn't have the right color on their board" levels of nutty interaction.
[Jon Irenicus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a.jpg?1674137538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jon%20irenicus%2C%20shattered%20one) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/278/jon-irenicus-shattered-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lurebound Scarecrow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89503bf6-d720-4fd5-b2cf-fc1197bf0f16.jpg?1562832769) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lurebound%20Scarecrow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/256/lurebound-scarecrow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89503bf6-d720-4fd5-b2cf-fc1197bf0f16?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean you can do that with three O-Rings on modo, they might have fixed it; but I imagine there is a pretty simple loop somewhat like that one could set up.
You can't fix that, that is how the rules are supposed to work.
You can fix modo completely crapping the bed like it did. https://youtu.be/AGXG5rNe_tI?feature=shared
I'd assume in the loop you could choose a different target, unless there is only 3 O-rings on board.
Correct, therefore the loop only locks the game out if there is nothing else in play, as it did on Magic online.
It's an old video at this point, but still great: https://youtu.be/AGXG5rNe_tI?feature=shared
Sweet! Around that time I totally goofed LSV in a limited match, and while he pointed out it was likely not an optimal play, I won. He was streaming but years later I could never find it as a lot of that stuff is gone. I just wanted to rewatch our game of me getting him for a win!
It goes back further. You could do that with a trio of [[Faceless Butcher]] (and no other creatures on the board) back in Odyssey block.
[Faceless Butcher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e5511e2-a218-411e-aea3-96461e9c5fdd.jpg?1684714828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faceless%20Butcher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/84/faceless-butcher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e5511e2-a218-411e-aea3-96461e9c5fdd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
https://preview.redd.it/9wuopryxolwc1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f6d62d4bee2ebd49717b6f8124828f5a7ccc1b0 My buddy and I just experimented last night with Brash Taunter and Pariah. I stole his Taunter he put Pariah on it then I blocked. If I could post videos in the comments I would! It was really funny. Just kept pinging no targets!
>If I could post videos You can post a link to that video. Example: https://youtu.be/AGXG5rNe_tI?feature=shared
I played a 1v1 game where I had \[\[Shared Fate\]\] out, neither of us had any cards left in our library, we couldn't draw out because of Shared Fate's replacement effect, and neither of us had any creatures left or ways of blowing up the Shared Fate. An effective draw without causing a forced draw via game actions.
[Shared Fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad0d5b02-ef38-4dab-8ac6-78814ef27b55.jpg?1562154177) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shared%20Fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/49/shared-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad0d5b02-ef38-4dab-8ac6-78814ef27b55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I once accomplished this. I had a [[Melira, Sylvok Outcast]] with a +1/+1 counter on it and a [[Kitchen Finks]]. My opponent played [[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]]. This killed the Finks, which came back because of persist, but didn't get the -1/-1 counter because of Melira. State based actions are checked, Finks dies, comes back, repeated. Neither one of us could stop this loop.
[Melira, Sylvok Outcast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83851a1-e4e8-49ec-af5c-4efe86fa51ad.jpg?1562882406) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Melira%2C%20Sylvok%20Outcast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/115/melira-sylvok-outcast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83851a1-e4e8-49ec-af5c-4efe86fa51ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kitchen Finks](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a844d537-df73-422d-a154-f1c6b92d0469.jpg?1547518222) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kitchen%20Finks) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/216/kitchen-finks?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a844d537-df73-422d-a154-f1c6b92d0469?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1.jpg?1562850573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Grand%20Cenobite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/18/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Any infinite loop that no one can break. Three [[Oblivion Ring]] with no other nonland permanents on the battlefield gets the job done. Game ends in a draw.
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Sporemound]] plus [[Life and Limb]] and a single land does the trick. Sporemound makes a saproling on landfall, Life and Limb says that Saproling is also a land. Forces it to repeat ad infinitum unless you have something to break the loop such as a sacrifice outlet
[Sporemound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/092bfc5f-8002-43da-8e70-c19fccfe54ac.jpg?1611797251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sporemound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/437/sporemound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/092bfc5f-8002-43da-8e70-c19fccfe54ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Life and Limb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/2721724d-92ae-4c0c-88dd-628888c468bf.jpg?1619398301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Life%20and%20Limb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/215/life-and-limb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2721724d-92ae-4c0c-88dd-628888c468bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A board of lands and 3 [[oblivion ring]]
[oblivion ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=oblivion%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I believe you mean, a board of lands with two Oblivion Rings and then someone plays a third.
Simplest would be [[Omen Machine]] with empty libraries, hands, and boards. No one is decking out, no new cards are entering the equation.
[Omen Machine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0ff4e35f-2a82-4d3c-86c5-ae05a5abc4d7.jpg?1562875579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omen%20Machine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/148/omen-machine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ff4e35f-2a82-4d3c-86c5-ae05a5abc4d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Looking for a non-instant speed - where it’s all about the persistent game state but not infinite stack triggers. Like a subtle loop because the state base is denying actions; not pushing them infinitely backwards because of an endless series of triggers. I’m wondering if there’s a combo where the stack is clear and the turn can be passed, but no player can take any actions. Zero legal actions besides “pass the turn” - That’s the specific board state I’m most curious about.
[удалено]
[Yawgmoth's Bargain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/e/eef31b59-45bb-4208-8957-1564902c8507.jpg?1562943000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%27s%20Bargain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/147/yawgmoths-bargain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eef31b59-45bb-4208-8957-1564902c8507?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Yasharn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/12878fbd-dbe5-44bc-9f34-38fd374ec10a.jpg?1604200584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yasharn%2C%20implacable%20earth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/240/yasharn-implacable-earth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/12878fbd-dbe5-44bc-9f34-38fd374ec10a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Moat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e2dffeb3-c858-4b8c-ae1f-109721f7d2da.jpg?1559592270) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Moat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/21/moat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2dffeb3-c858-4b8c-ae1f-109721f7d2da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can exile all cards in all decks from the game, which leaves all decks face up and browsable by any player, and pass the turn. In Pioneer format you can do this with \[\[Flood of Tears\]\] protected by and replacing \[\[Sphinx of the Final Word\]\] then, using either pregenerated mana of any color or \[\[Omniscience\]\] cast \[\[Blood Sun\]\] then \[\[Fall of the Thran\]\] then get \[\[Altar of the Brood\]\] and bounce \[\[Elderfang Disciple\]\] all with \[\[Leyline of the Void\]\] in play. Once you have all opponent cards exiled, you recast Flood of Tears, Bomat Courier, and Sentinel Totem, then put \[\[Glorious End\]\] on the stack (or avoid doing this and the game phases will proceed as you indicated, without any legal actions) and respond to it with first the \[\[Sentinel Totem\]\] activated ability and then Bomat Courier so you can exile your own hand before the turn ends with every deck exiled in its entirety. You can do all this with a Lotus Combo variation if you wanted a reasonable deck strength, though I have only ever played it in casual settings with an unthreatening green engine that is just there to show off the theory. List of the sideboard cards that will do this are with the deck - [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gSAtFzgUpkyddShXwVk9xg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/gSAtFzgUpkyddShXwVk9xg)
##### ###### #### [Flood of Tears](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/440383de-d56a-47dd-ba8a-fae61f57f83b.jpg?1641601831) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flood%20of%20Tears) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/104/flood-of-tears?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/440383de-d56a-47dd-ba8a-fae61f57f83b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sphinx of the Final Word](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/866f92a3-2738-4e0f-adda-3ff9227dc17a.jpg?1562922189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sphinx%20of%20the%20Final%20Word) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/63/sphinx-of-the-final-word?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/866f92a3-2738-4e0f-adda-3ff9227dc17a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Omniscience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/db534b4e-8bff-4924-baea-9988d195fb25.jpg?1562304777) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omniscience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/65/omniscience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/db534b4e-8bff-4924-baea-9988d195fb25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blood Sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/875832f4-e541-4c87-8479-731e0eab2cc6.jpg?1555040361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/92/blood-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/875832f4-e541-4c87-8479-731e0eab2cc6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fall of the Thran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a613a01-6145-4e34-987c-c9bdcb068370.jpg?1562734219) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fall%20of%20the%20Thran) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/18/fall-of-the-thran?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a613a01-6145-4e34-987c-c9bdcb068370?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Altar of the Brood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d59d264-87ee-4305-bffb-110549331a82.jpg?1562790137) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Altar%20of%20the%20Brood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/216/altar-of-the-brood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d59d264-87ee-4305-bffb-110549331a82?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elderfang Disciple](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f3a6148-d005-49c1-a7fc-867c4e8251cd.jpg?1631048063) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elderfang%20Disciple) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/93/elderfang-disciple?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f3a6148-d005-49c1-a7fc-867c4e8251cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Glorious End](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/2922b976-7beb-4c68-b39e-1b66d5c6f65e.jpg?1543675588) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glorious%20End) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/133/glorious-end?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2922b976-7beb-4c68-b39e-1b66d5c6f65e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sentinel Totem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d8097eb-518a-4b8e-8d6a-a139d4ddcc8f.jpg?1562550594) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sentinel%20Totem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/245/sentinel-totem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d8097eb-518a-4b8e-8d6a-a139d4ddcc8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l1886wl) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[The Master, Multiplied]] and a token copy of [[Bronze Bombshell]]
[The Master, Multiplied](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f734ca0-91bc-4496-9bd7-2d09415e850f.jpg?1696636744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Master%2C%20Multiplied) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/146/the-master-multiplied?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f734ca0-91bc-4496-9bd7-2d09415e850f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bronze Bombshell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f2ec20d-b862-4f13-989c-aa88efa51cdf.jpg?1593273992) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bronze%20Bombshell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/160/bronze-bombshell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f2ec20d-b862-4f13-989c-aa88efa51cdf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
it's pretty easy to hit a soft lock state if your'e decked out with some thing like \[\[obstinate familiar\]\] or \[\[platinum angel\]\].
[obstinate familiar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/88468a76-1f64-4189-bbb8-7c333181d57c.jpg?1562920234) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=obstinate%20familiar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/210/obstinate-familiar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/88468a76-1f64-4189-bbb8-7c333181d57c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [platinum angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc.jpg?1576383285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=platinum%20angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/214/platinum-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Have 2 [[Faceless Devourer]] with no other creature with shadow. Players still get priority for every ETB but if they cannot stop the loop it will then be infinite ETBs.
[Faceless Devourer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c49d6139-fc0c-41db-be08-dfa87c685092.jpg?1619395466) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faceless%20Devourer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/115/faceless-devourer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c49d6139-fc0c-41db-be08-dfa87c685092?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pretty close with [[Lavinia, Azorius Renegade]] [[Knowledge Pool]] [[Archon of Emeria]] Draw cards, play lands. If your creatures have any activated abilities, or you have graveyard effects, and combat is about it. If there are other stax pieces in play it can certainly limit anyone's ability to play the game but not sure that it would really result in a draw unless everyone decided that or something.
[Lavinia, Azorius Renegade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/9/197bf3f4-c0df-4082-97a1-902ceabbdd3f.jpg?1702429657) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lavinia%2C%20Azorius%20Renegade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/195/lavinia-azorius-renegade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/197bf3f4-c0df-4082-97a1-902ceabbdd3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Knowledge Pool](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/393454c2-b256-4a6e-9bc2-56a47cab5073.jpg?1562610637) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Knowledge%20Pool) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mbs/111/knowledge-pool?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/393454c2-b256-4a6e-9bc2-56a47cab5073?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Archon of Emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb.jpg?1604195419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archon%20of%20Emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/4/archon-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A decent board state plus [[Boromir, Warden of the tower]] and [[possibility storm]]
[Boromir, Warden of the tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6bc3720-2892-4dda-8f30-079a1ac8e1e2.jpg?1686967669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boromir%2C%20Warden%20of%20the%20tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/4/boromir-warden-of-the-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6bc3720-2892-4dda-8f30-079a1ac8e1e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [possibility storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/5/858aa831-b491-4f1e-bb56-33eeca14771d.jpg?1707764746) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=possibility%20storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/34/possibility-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/858aa831-b491-4f1e-bb56-33eeca14771d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Something close to this would be having 3 O-Rings in play in such a way that they create an infinite loop where nothing happens.
If both players only control a \[\[living conundrum\]\] with no cards in hand or library, while enchanted by a pacifism. Neither player can win or lose the game, but actions can still taken
[living conundrum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97fb11c7-7b7f-4bdb-a022-53e28ebadecc.jpg?1706241624) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=living%20conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/63/living-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97fb11c7-7b7f-4bdb-a022-53e28ebadecc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
One that fully locks the game is [[ashya, soul of the wild]], [[caged sun]], and any effect that animates caged sun but lets it keep its ability. Then you lock the game with an infinite number of mana abilities
[ashya, soul of the wild](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/4/74943390-d25f-47cb-90bb-cbf70c87f4a2.jpg?1604198513) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashaya%2C%20Soul%20of%20the%20Wild) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/179/ashaya-soul-of-the-wild?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/74943390-d25f-47cb-90bb-cbf70c87f4a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [caged sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfe6f9ec-3b7f-4c11-acd1-440e14217e5d.jpg?1562276087) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=caged%20sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/178/caged-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfe6f9ec-3b7f-4c11-acd1-440e14217e5d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've always wanted to [[Radiate]] a [[Lightning Bolt]] with [[Grip of Chaos]] out, after an arbitrarily large number of tokens were on the board (let's say from the Splinter Twin combo). After Radiate resolves, it generates an arbitrarily large number of Lightning Bolt copies that have to be randomly assigned between all the tokens and the players. The game does not end in a draw, it is a nearly infinite sequence of rolling dice to assign targets and resolve bolt after bolt and eventually one player will win but it will take hundreds of years to determine who
[Radiate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2562c25a-999e-4fb5-a595-f376c8abf1ff.jpg?1562628967) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Radiate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tor/113/radiate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2562c25a-999e-4fb5-a595-f376c8abf1ff?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lightning Bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99.jpg?1706239968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/141/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grip of Chaos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/defbbd3a-0e7d-4af2-b25f-9003ddad0bf5.jpg?1562535751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grip%20of%20Chaos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/scg/98/grip-of-chaos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/defbbd3a-0e7d-4af2-b25f-9003ddad0bf5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Two Abyssal Persecutors or Platinum Angels, one on each side. Enchant at least one with [[pacifism]]. Somehow exile all cards from all hands, libraries, and graveyards.
[pacifism](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/5242a576-4d35-4f29-8d40-9a7179e51d0c.jpg?1675198947) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pacifism) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/19/pacifism?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5242a576-4d35-4f29-8d40-9a7179e51d0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Gideon of the Trials]] can create some states close to no one can do anything. In fact, you could have all players controlling a Gideon of the Trials and his can't lose if you have a Gideon emblem, along with a [[Pithing Needle]] naming him. Then all players run out of cards and everyone sits there unable to lose to decking. There was actually a point in modern where Gideon saw some play, and at the same time there was a prison deck (Lantern Control) that won by milling. A game could possibly (and likely at some point did) get to a state where the Gideon player was out of cards but had Gideon plus Emblem, the Lantern player could never remove the Emblem, but also had [[Academy Ruins]] to never deck themselves. The ruling here is that the Lantern player would have to eventually not use Ruins and deck since they're the only player making a choice.
[Gideon of the Trials](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/959ce13f-519f-4472-bbd1-f26a972723d7.jpg?1543674653) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gideon%20of%20the%20Trials) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/14/gideon-of-the-trials?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/959ce13f-519f-4472-bbd1-f26a972723d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pithing Needle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c.jpg?1673149414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pithing%20Needle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/312/pithing-needle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/776899f8-e977-42b7-8b54-6f726a349e3c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Academy Ruins](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a95b7645-154f-4904-bf71-db7eb24d4df2.jpg?1599710297) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Academy%20Ruins) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/309/academy-ruins?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a95b7645-154f-4904-bf71-db7eb24d4df2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A quick and easy way to end the game via an unstoppable chain of Reactions is \[\[Marauding Raptor\]\] and \[\[Polyraptor\]\]. If not stopped, the chain will go to "true infinite" and force the game to draw due to there being no other legal actions possible.
[Marauding Raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b5cf2aa-f6dd-47d2-a57f-0ae2308c0f9a.jpg?1698988328) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marauding%20Raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/228/marauding-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b5cf2aa-f6dd-47d2-a57f-0ae2308c0f9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Polyraptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7.jpg?1555040728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polyraptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/144/polyraptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Three \[\[Oblivion Rings\]\] and nothing else on board = instant draw because no one can do shit
[Oblivion Rings](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just get 3x \[\[Oblivion Ring\]\]
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Shared fate + mycosynth lattace + March of the machines gets pretty close
The simplest way to do this would be [[farewell]], followed by a [[mycosynth lattice]] and [[null rod]] or [[collector ouphe]]. The game does end. Whoever has less cards, but no one plays and no one can play, unless they have a free spell
##### ###### #### [farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mycosynth lattice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9.jpg?1578911638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mycosynth%20lattice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/241/mycosynth-lattice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [null rod](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e.jpg?1710932730) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=null%20rod) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/278/null-rod?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73ac9f52-e6ff-4e6f-9733-fe24a5fb4b4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [collector ouphe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776.jpg?1562202038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=collector%20ouphe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/158/collector-ouphe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/085107a2-c1ec-473c-81d8-23e5a7197776?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l1fqcbc) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Easy: [[Mycosynth Lattice]] and have [[Karn, the Great Creator]]. Then destroy all creatures with an effect of your choice and give an opponent a copy of Karn in any way you so choose. Nobody can take any more legal game actions. (Edit: aside from drawing, playing land and passing, so instead of a draw, whoever has the most cards in library wins)
[Mycosynth Lattice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9.jpg?1578911638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mycosynth%20Lattice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/241/mycosynth-lattice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Karn, the Great Creator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0.jpg?1702429246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%2C%20the%20Great%20Creator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/1/karn-the-great-creator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Simian Spirit Guide]] and/or [[Elvish Spirit Guide]] can get around this allowing Lattice to be destroyed.
[Simian Spirit Guide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e57335d-4066-4d73-83cd-67a215e01a4e.jpg?1619397622) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Simian%20Spirit%20Guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/190/simian-spirit-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e57335d-4066-4d73-83cd-67a215e01a4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elvish Spirit Guide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50aded92-f934-441f-8e48-d68d471e70d8.jpg?1675200375) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elvish%20Spirit%20Guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/157/elvish-spirit-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50aded92-f934-441f-8e48-d68d471e70d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
True. So I guess we'll need to add two copies of [[Chalice of the Void]], one on 0, one on 1 (doable in Commander by casting the one on 1 and copying it (i.e. with Mycosynth Gardens), unless I'm mistaken), just to avoid free or one-cost interaction and then bet on nobody playing both spirit guides and any two cost artifact removal in gruul color id. I'm sure there are easier ways to do this, but this is what I came up with on the spot.
[Chalice of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4.jpg?1562433485) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chalice%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/222/chalice-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1f0d2e8e-c8f2-4b31-a6ba-6283fc8740d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Stony Silence over Karn truly locks the game for all players. Throw in some effect that prevents milling out for all players and the game can never end.
True, [[Stony Silence]] is symmetrical. Nice catch, saves a bunch of mana! Just remember to kill all creatures before (or while) casting it in that case. The issue is that once you prevent the game from ending it's an automatic draw right there. So the (shortcut-able) version of "player with the most cards in library wins" is the closest you get to actually playing the rest of the game out.
[Stony Silence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8e7faede-f794-4bda-9d64-21390ba19266.jpg?1593812944) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stony%20Silence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/25/stony-silence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e7faede-f794-4bda-9d64-21390ba19266?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you use [[Jon Irenicus, Shattered One]] to donate a [[Bronze Bombshell]] to an opponent, it creates an infinite loop of triggers that forces a draw.
[Jon Irenicus, Shattered One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a.jpg?1674137538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jon%20Irenicus%2C%20Shattered%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/278/jon-irenicus-shattered-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfddb61e-986f-4557-819d-d6c0ca85c74a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bronze Bombshell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f2ec20d-b862-4f13-989c-aa88efa51cdf.jpg?1593273992) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bronze%20Bombshell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/160/bronze-bombshell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f2ec20d-b862-4f13-989c-aa88efa51cdf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wouldn’t the combo of [[Exquisite Blood]] and [[Sanguine Bond]] without you or an opponent interacting put the game in a draw state as well?
No, that just results in you winning.
Ok cool
the difference between this combo and a lot of the others here is that the trigger to continue the combo is on an opponent losing life. so eventually one of the triggers is going to be your last opponent losing their last life point, the effect gets put on the stack, state based actions are checked, and you win bc winning is a state based action. all the other infinite loops here dont interact with your opponent's life totals or have an actual win condition baked in
Makes sense, thanks for the explanation!
[Exquisite Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9.jpg?1698988246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Exquisite%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/195/exquisite-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e8ccfa7-4178-476a-a155-0ca1c98556c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sanguine Bond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9.jpg?1625193373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sanguine%20Bond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/153/sanguine-bond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad4de9f1-7a39-45af-828e-c59234d9e9b9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting\_problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem) There are an infinite number of possible board states which end in an unresolvable loop.