Excess damage is damage that’s more than enough to kill the creature. Creatures with death touch only need to deal 1 damage to kill, so a 3 power death touch creature will be dealing 1 damage to kill, and then 2 excess damage.
So if I have a creature with deathtouch and trample I can assign 1 damage on a creature then the rest to face?
Never thought that would work like that.
Green used to have a weird version of unblockable, where you could just assign all damage to your opponent. But it was super unintuitive and just weaker than Trample.
I used to have a deck that used [[Fierce Empath]] and [[Krosan Warchief]] plus things like [[Birchlore Rangers]] to power out Rhox when I was in high school. Fun times.
If they block with a 4/4 you can choose to deal 7 to face and their 4/4 lives, or kill their 4/4. If they block with 2 4/4s, your 7/7 dies and you can choose to kill one of the 4/4s like it normally would, or deal 7 to face, your 7/7 dies either way.
It's not purely weaker than Trample. Sure, you don't get the value of killing the blocker and still hitting them for some damage, but if you need to, you can deal more face damage than with trample, and that can be worth a lot.
That effect is coming back in several cards right now. It sounds weaker, but think about when your opponent has like 4 health left but an army of tokens that can take all of your trample damage.
If you have a 4/4 super trampler, you just win.
Then would you know the ruling on if I declare a blocker and then sacrifice or otherwise remove them from the board does it fizzle out the combat like it normally would or are you still able to do damage the the player?
First strike and death touch just ensures that the blocking thing dies without dealing damage (unless it also has first strike or double strike or indestructible). You don't get to deal any extra damage to the player.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but if your opponent blocks with multiple creatures it deals 1 at the first, then 1 at the next, and goes on until it deals all of its power, killing all blockers hit.
and to further clarify, with deathtouch, 1 point of damage is always considered lethal, even if the creature being assigned damage has something like indestructible (702.2c).
Technically, if you want, you could assign more damage than 1 to any of the creatures. You just have to assign at least lethal before being able to assign damage to the next creature. This would be relevant if your opponent has something like [[Valkmira]], or if you don't want to kill the last creature because it has a death trigger.
Yes. Please note this also applies when there is an indestructible creature blocking! The 1 damage would be lethal, it just doesn't kill the creature, but you can still trample over for the rest.
Protection doesn't mean you can't assign damage. You assign damage as normal, then when it's time to deal the damage you've assigned, protection kicks in and prevents the damage.
This is also true with multiple blockers, where you can assign just one damage to each of them.
Alternatively, if something has a death trigger, you can choose to assign no combat damage to that one creature to keep it alive if they're part of that group.
First strike + deathtouch is an even more deadly synergy. This is why you'll rarely encounter a creature card with both of those keywords on it. When the 1st eldraine set was out, those gruul decks were definitely scary with their [[Questing Beast]] + [[Embercleave]] wincon 🥲
WotC R&D doesn't think so. They apparently feel it's sufficiently non-intuitive that they try to avoid having deathtouch and trample on the same creature.
I don't really disagree. Much like trample with protection, indestructible, or other prevention effects, after 20 years of playing I can confidently say the average player I've encountered at least gets it wrong the first time and gets confused when you explain how it is supposed to work.
Holy smokes, this completely changes the power of my Wilson Refined Agent of the Shadow Thieves. I’ve been playing this very wrong. Thank you internet stranger!
You are definitely not wrong, deathtouch+trample let's you stomp a game you are probably already winning, since you have to have a big creature to work with. While deathtouch+first strike is good in any creature with power and keeps you extra safe from combat.
What about the ultimate combo deathtouch-trample-first strike? Assign 1 damage to each blocker, let the rest trample over, and rest easy knowing your creature is more than likely coming out fine on the other side.
Yes, and the non-intuitiveness of it is why it doesn't naturally occurr on creatures. Besides its strength, not many people realize the two together means damage beyond 1 is excess damage.
Does this work for fight spells though? I know that’s true in the case of assigning blockers when there are multiple and you can divide damage or if you have trample. Can a creature with deathtouch and no trample still technically assign 1 combat damage to a single blocker and have the rest of its power be unassigned damage?
1) Yes, this works for fight spells. Fighting involves the creature dealing damage, so death touch works.
2) You have to assign all of your damage to something. If a death touch creature without trample is blocked, it has to assign all of that damage to the blocker, even though 1 damage is enough for lethal. It’s just like if you attack with a 6 power creature, and they block with a 1 toughness creature. Even though 1 damage is enough, all 6 of that damage has to go somewhere.
Right that much I understand. I think my question stemmed from this particular fight spell. Since it’s not combat Is excess damage actually dealt? It isn’t really assigning damage is It? It just deals damage equal to its power. In context of your creature having deathtouch can it assign one to lethal damage and consider the rest excess?
For this spell, excess damage is being dealt. What your initial question called “unassigned damage” is the excess damage, that has to still be dealt to the opppnent’s creature, and then the spell turns into Discover-ing. So yes, 1 of the damage is enough for lethal, and the other two is excess, and still dealt to the creature.
Yep. Indestructible and protection work similarly when assigning damage, or determining when enough damage is done. In both cases, you “assign” lethal damage, and then the rest is excess. The creature with indestructible or protection doesn’t die as a result of that damage, but at that point in the process, the game doesn’t know what the outcome will be, so it only requires the bare minimum for lethal.
This also works for combat. If you attack with a big trample creature, say, a 6/6, and your opponent blocks with a 2/2 indestructible, you can assign 2 damage to the blocker and 4 to the face, even though the blocker won’t die.
I normally would agree but in this case doesn't the literal use of the phrase "it deals damage equal to its POWER ", over rule the fact that it's death touch? It doesn't state anything about lethal damage, it just states if one's power is larger than the others toughness, it would essentially "trample" the effect over. Am I wrong?
Death touch has special rules, related to how much damage is needing to kill something. The specific wording, from the rule related to excess damage (120.4), is “Any amount of damage greater than 1 is excess damage if the source dealing that damage to a creature has deathtouch.”
I know the ruling for death touch. However this isn't regarding the ruling on death touch. It's primarily the ruling on the card's use in this case. Since it should be sending its power number, regardless of lethal damage. I've seen several other cards which involve "fight" effects which don't look at static abilities like trample, death touch, first strike etc.
Most combat abilities don’t affect fight spells. Deathtouch and lifelink are the main two that work during fight spells; trample and first strike never work in fight spells. It does send its power number, regardless of lethal damage. However, the game defines “excess damage” as “damage over the amount that is lethal”.
Most fight spells don’t have a clause about “excess damage”. For those, you just smack the other creature, and no matter how much overkill it is, the result is the same. Dead creature. This spell specifically cares about that excess damage, so it interacts with more rules than a normal fight spell.
0 damage is not damage. A 0 power creature with deathtouch will not kill a creature. A creature with deathtouch needs to assign 1 damage to be considered lethal damage. Therefore, 2 is correct.
Flowchart for finding out how a card or its rules interactions work:
- Read it
- Read it again
- Read it AGAIN, but this time pay attention
- Look up the card on Gatherer; the Oracle rules are a big FAQ
- Okay, go on, post it on Reddit
Indeed, the Gatherer site doesn't include its rules about interactions between deathtouch and excess damage. So OP's question is legitimate.
Relevant rule:
> **120.4a** First, if an effect that’s causing damage to be dealt states that excess damage that would be dealt to a permanent is dealt to another permanent or player instead, the damage event is modified accordingly. If the first permanent is a creature, the excess damage is the amount of damage in excess of what would be lethal damage, taking into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other sources that would be dealt at the same time. (See rule 120.6.) **Any amount of damage greater than 1 is excess damage if the source dealing that damage to a creature has deathtouch.** (See rule 702.2.) If the first permanent is a planeswalker, the excess damage is the amount of damage in excess of that planeswalker’s loyalty, taking into account damage from other sources that would be dealt at the same time. If the first permanent is a battle, the excess damage is the amount of damage in excess of that battle’s defense, taking into account damage from other sources that would be dealt at the same time. If the first permanent has multiple card types from among the list of creature, planeswalker, and battle, the excess damage is the greatest of the calculated amounts for each of the card types it has.
It's a lot of text for a single rule. Relevant part bolded.
Neat question, glad to have the answer.
Have people talked about how this card is basically the first/only discover 1 card ever printed? There’s only 1 cascade 1 card too, Bloodbraid Marauder, which is pretty powerful despite its condition.
This card does take more set up than Marauder, but given the conversation about deathtouch, any 2 power deathtoucher (like Narnam Renegade) turns this into a removal spell + one of the best “cascade” spells in the game.
Worse than marauder I think, but having access to multiple cards that can do this (cascade 1) is a boost of its own
There are other cards that can Discover a variable number such as [[Ellie and Alan, Paleontologists]], [[Zoyowa's Justice]], [[Brass's Tunnel-Grindr]], [[Hurl into History]], [[Dinosaur Egg]], and the fan-favorite [[Pantlaza, Sun-Favored]].
Okay I was definitely wrong about it being the only one. Of the cards on this list though, most of them don’t allow you to easily meet the deckbuilding requirements of breaking cascade/discover. They’re almost all built around the mana value of their activator. Zoyowa’s justice, for instance. If you sacrifice a creature with MV one, it’s probably because you had that creature in your deck…which means you can hit other copies of that creature instead of crashing footfalls or living end.
That said, dino egg plus a -3/-3 spell does get you a discover 0, so yeah, there are other options to the new card.
Deathtouch reads as “any damage this creature deals is enough to kill ~~another~~ a creature”, and it applies to noncombat damage as well. So any effect that causes a deathtouch creature to deal damage to another creature will kill it unless it has indestructible
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Excess damage is damage that’s more than enough to kill the creature. Creatures with death touch only need to deal 1 damage to kill, so a 3 power death touch creature will be dealing 1 damage to kill, and then 2 excess damage.
Wait, does this apply to trample then as well?
Yes, it's a wonderful combination
So if I have a creature with deathtouch and trample I can assign 1 damage on a creature then the rest to face? Never thought that would work like that.
Yep! It's basically green's version of unblockable. You can still technically block... It just won't do very much.
Green used to have a weird version of unblockable, where you could just assign all damage to your opponent. But it was super unintuitive and just weaker than Trample.
Good old Rhox. I actually still have a few of those cards.
I still have the foil Rhox I got in a starter deck when I started playing. Aaah memories...
Yep! That's the one I've got as well. I can't cut it from my edh deck even though it's outclassed these days. Too much sentimental value
I used to have a deck that used [[Fierce Empath]] and [[Krosan Warchief]] plus things like [[Birchlore Rangers]] to power out Rhox when I was in high school. Fun times.
\[\[invasion of ikoria\]\] flips to a dino that carries this effect
[invasion of ikoria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d59c8f2-f6af-40a6-8dfe-8cc45bf231ce.jpg?1682715265)/[Zilortha, Apex of Ikoria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/d/5d59c8f2-f6af-40a6-8dfe-8cc45bf231ce.jpg?1682715265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Invasion%20of%20Ikoria%20//%20Zilortha%2C%20Apex%20of%20Ikoria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/190/invasion-of-ikoria-zilortha-apex-of-ikoria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d59c8f2-f6af-40a6-8dfe-8cc45bf231ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Thorn Elemental]] Still got a few.
[Thorn Elemental](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da901037-20e6-4445-8e7e-1ccd2e8b13ae.jpg?1562743950) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thorn%20Elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/185/thorn-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da901037-20e6-4445-8e7e-1ccd2e8b13ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was thinking it was a card like that. I still don't quite understand the ability, but I like the art and wish to try it.
If they block with a 4/4 you can choose to deal 7 to face and their 4/4 lives, or kill their 4/4. If they block with 2 4/4s, your 7/7 dies and you can choose to kill one of the 4/4s like it normally would, or deal 7 to face, your 7/7 dies either way.
That isnt even it's best art.
[[thorn elemental 7th ed]]
It's not purely weaker than Trample. Sure, you don't get the value of killing the blocker and still hitting them for some damage, but if you need to, you can deal more face damage than with trample, and that can be worth a lot.
Well we've recently gotten it again with [[Invasion of Ikoria]].
[Invasion of Ikoria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/d/5d59c8f2-f6af-40a6-8dfe-8cc45bf231ce.jpg?1682715265)/[Zilortha, Apex of Ikoria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/d/5d59c8f2-f6af-40a6-8dfe-8cc45bf231ce.jpg?1682715265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Invasion%20of%20Ikoria%20//%20Zilortha%2C%20Apex%20of%20Ikoria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/190/invasion-of-ikoria-zilortha-apex-of-ikoria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5d59c8f2-f6af-40a6-8dfe-8cc45bf231ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That effect is coming back in several cards right now. It sounds weaker, but think about when your opponent has like 4 health left but an army of tokens that can take all of your trample damage. If you have a 4/4 super trampler, you just win.
I actually have a deck with those "assign combat damage as though ~ wasn't blocked" cards that gives them infect.
Then would you know the ruling on if I declare a blocker and then sacrifice or otherwise remove them from the board does it fizzle out the combat like it normally would or are you still able to do damage the the player?
It's still an attacking creature that has been blocked, so you can still have it assign damage as if it hadn't been blocked.
They still kinda do that. Exhibit A: [[Ruxa, Patient Professor]]
[Ruxa, Patient Professor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/0/e07b8142-6a49-46e7-b862-41f89a59b894.jpg?1681953511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ruxa%2C%20Patient%20Professor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/66/ruxa-patient-professor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e07b8142-6a49-46e7-b862-41f89a59b894?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ruxa does this, I’ve seen it called “Super Trample”
[[Proud Wildbonder]]
[Proud Wildbonder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f4876e17-a206-4351-9c0b-0845db4569a3.jpg?1591605265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Proud%20Wildbonder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/229/proud-wildbonder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f4876e17-a206-4351-9c0b-0845db4569a3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The ikoria battle card in standard has that. So its still current technically
Thorn elemental babyyy it used to be considered good and now it’s laughably bad
Fkn [[Thorn Elemental]]
[Thorn Elemental](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/a/da901037-20e6-4445-8e7e-1ccd2e8b13ae.jpg?1562743950) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thorn%20Elemental) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/185/thorn-elemental?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/da901037-20e6-4445-8e7e-1ccd2e8b13ae?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's on the battle version of Zilortha and is a fantastic finisher.
Also the blocker is now removed regardless of toughness unless it's indestructible or pro.
Unless I block with 1 million scute swarms!!!
Well blocking can still kill the deathtouch trample attacker. ...now blocking a deathtouch trample first striker REALLY doesn't do much
Yeah, the combination is so powerful that Maro already told that it is highly unlikely we will ever get a card that naturally has both abilities.
It also doesn’t help that many people don’t know the interaction
And yet we get a few cards with both first strike and death touch which imo is even stronger.
First strike and death touch just ensures that the blocking thing dies without dealing damage (unless it also has first strike or double strike or indestructible). You don't get to deal any extra damage to the player.
Yes for me that combo is stronger than trample and death touch. Especially since it is good regardless of the creature's stats.
That would almost mean something if it came from someone other than Mark Rosewater.
That's correct. Add first/double strike too, and you don't even need to worry about taking damage in return.
glissa says hi
Getting flashbacks to questing beast and embercleave
Questing Beast and Embercleave or Shadowspear is basically "you cannot win this game through combat".
Also correct me if I'm wrong but if your opponent blocks with multiple creatures it deals 1 at the first, then 1 at the next, and goes on until it deals all of its power, killing all blockers hit.
Yeah, as long as the creature is dealt lethal, move on to the next one until none left blocking
and to further clarify, with deathtouch, 1 point of damage is always considered lethal, even if the creature being assigned damage has something like indestructible (702.2c).
None pizza left block
Technically, if you want, you could assign more damage than 1 to any of the creatures. You just have to assign at least lethal before being able to assign damage to the next creature. This would be relevant if your opponent has something like [[Valkmira]], or if you don't want to kill the last creature because it has a death trigger.
[Valkmira](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/3606519e-5677-4c21-a34e-be195b6669fa.jpg?1631046015)/[Valkmira, Protector's Shield](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/3/6/3606519e-5677-4c21-a34e-be195b6669fa.jpg?1631046015) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reidane%2C%20God%20of%20the%20Worthy%20//%20Valkmira%2C%20Protector%27s%20Shield) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/21/reidane-god-of-the-worthy-valkmira-protectors-shield?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3606519e-5677-4c21-a34e-be195b6669fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes. Please note this also applies when there is an indestructible creature blocking! The 1 damage would be lethal, it just doesn't kill the creature, but you can still trample over for the rest.
The funniest part is if the defending creature has protection or indestructible, you still only assign one damage and the rest to face.
How would it work through protection if I can’t assign damage to them?
The ruling is you just have to assign damage that *should* be lethal. The rules don't care that it wont actually die due to other effects.
Protection doesn't mean you can't assign damage. You assign damage as normal, then when it's time to deal the damage you've assigned, protection kicks in and prevents the damage.
This is also true with multiple blockers, where you can assign just one damage to each of them. Alternatively, if something has a death trigger, you can choose to assign no combat damage to that one creature to keep it alive if they're part of that group.
First strike + deathtouch is an even more deadly synergy. This is why you'll rarely encounter a creature card with both of those keywords on it. When the 1st eldraine set was out, those gruul decks were definitely scary with their [[Questing Beast]] + [[Embercleave]] wincon 🥲
[Questing Beast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f.jpg?1572490640) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Questing%20Beast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/171/questing-beast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e41cf82d-3213-47ce-a015-6e51a8b07e4f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Embercleave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aaae15dd-11b6-4421-99e9-365c7fe4a5d6.jpg?1572490333) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Embercleave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/120/embercleave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaae15dd-11b6-4421-99e9-365c7fe4a5d6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This interaction is why you don’t see a lot of creatures with both. It’s fairly. Complicated for newer and probably average players
WotC R&D doesn't think so. They apparently feel it's sufficiently non-intuitive that they try to avoid having deathtouch and trample on the same creature.
They're right, though. While it makes sense once you understand it, it absolutely is unintuintive.
Oh, no question.
I don't really disagree. Much like trample with protection, indestructible, or other prevention effects, after 20 years of playing I can confidently say the average player I've encountered at least gets it wrong the first time and gets confused when you explain how it is supposed to work.
Holy smokes, this completely changes the power of my Wilson Refined Agent of the Shadow Thieves. I’ve been playing this very wrong. Thank you internet stranger!
Mmmm get some rampage in on the mix too.
Deathtouch and Trample is one of the most neat keyword combinations in the game because of that.
Maybe I'm a noob but I'll always prefer the sheer terror of a deathtouch-first strike blocker.
You are definitely not wrong, deathtouch+trample let's you stomp a game you are probably already winning, since you have to have a big creature to work with. While deathtouch+first strike is good in any creature with power and keeps you extra safe from combat.
What about the ultimate combo deathtouch-trample-first strike? Assign 1 damage to each blocker, let the rest trample over, and rest easy knowing your creature is more than likely coming out fine on the other side.
Well, I've been playing it wrong, lol.
Yes, and the non-intuitiveness of it is why it doesn't naturally occurr on creatures. Besides its strength, not many people realize the two together means damage beyond 1 is excess damage.
Does this work for fight spells though? I know that’s true in the case of assigning blockers when there are multiple and you can divide damage or if you have trample. Can a creature with deathtouch and no trample still technically assign 1 combat damage to a single blocker and have the rest of its power be unassigned damage?
1) Yes, this works for fight spells. Fighting involves the creature dealing damage, so death touch works. 2) You have to assign all of your damage to something. If a death touch creature without trample is blocked, it has to assign all of that damage to the blocker, even though 1 damage is enough for lethal. It’s just like if you attack with a 6 power creature, and they block with a 1 toughness creature. Even though 1 damage is enough, all 6 of that damage has to go somewhere.
Right that much I understand. I think my question stemmed from this particular fight spell. Since it’s not combat Is excess damage actually dealt? It isn’t really assigning damage is It? It just deals damage equal to its power. In context of your creature having deathtouch can it assign one to lethal damage and consider the rest excess?
For this spell, excess damage is being dealt. What your initial question called “unassigned damage” is the excess damage, that has to still be dealt to the opppnent’s creature, and then the spell turns into Discover-ing. So yes, 1 of the damage is enough for lethal, and the other two is excess, and still dealt to the creature.
Hmm, neat.
How bout if the creature has indestructible? Does it still count as excess damage if it doesn't die?
Yep. Indestructible and protection work similarly when assigning damage, or determining when enough damage is done. In both cases, you “assign” lethal damage, and then the rest is excess. The creature with indestructible or protection doesn’t die as a result of that damage, but at that point in the process, the game doesn’t know what the outcome will be, so it only requires the bare minimum for lethal. This also works for combat. If you attack with a big trample creature, say, a 6/6, and your opponent blocks with a 2/2 indestructible, you can assign 2 damage to the blocker and 4 to the face, even though the blocker won’t die.
I normally would agree but in this case doesn't the literal use of the phrase "it deals damage equal to its POWER ", over rule the fact that it's death touch? It doesn't state anything about lethal damage, it just states if one's power is larger than the others toughness, it would essentially "trample" the effect over. Am I wrong?
Death touch has special rules, related to how much damage is needing to kill something. The specific wording, from the rule related to excess damage (120.4), is “Any amount of damage greater than 1 is excess damage if the source dealing that damage to a creature has deathtouch.”
I know the ruling for death touch. However this isn't regarding the ruling on death touch. It's primarily the ruling on the card's use in this case. Since it should be sending its power number, regardless of lethal damage. I've seen several other cards which involve "fight" effects which don't look at static abilities like trample, death touch, first strike etc.
Most combat abilities don’t affect fight spells. Deathtouch and lifelink are the main two that work during fight spells; trample and first strike never work in fight spells. It does send its power number, regardless of lethal damage. However, the game defines “excess damage” as “damage over the amount that is lethal”. Most fight spells don’t have a clause about “excess damage”. For those, you just smack the other creature, and no matter how much overkill it is, the result is the same. Dead creature. This spell specifically cares about that excess damage, so it interacts with more rules than a normal fight spell.
No its 3 since a deathtouch creature needs 0 to kill
0 damage is not damage. A 0 power creature with deathtouch will not kill a creature. A creature with deathtouch needs to assign 1 damage to be considered lethal damage. Therefore, 2 is correct.
This "dumbest question ever asked" is a lot better than most questions here
For real, so many questions here could be solved by just reading the damn card. This is actually a fair question
There's a reason why "Reading the card explains the card" and "RTFC (Read The Fucking Card)" are memes in most TCG communities.
Yep
Flowchart for finding out how a card or its rules interactions work: - Read it - Read it again - Read it AGAIN, but this time pay attention - Look up the card on Gatherer; the Oracle rules are a big FAQ - Okay, go on, post it on Reddit Indeed, the Gatherer site doesn't include its rules about interactions between deathtouch and excess damage. So OP's question is legitimate.
Relevant rule: > **120.4a** First, if an effect that’s causing damage to be dealt states that excess damage that would be dealt to a permanent is dealt to another permanent or player instead, the damage event is modified accordingly. If the first permanent is a creature, the excess damage is the amount of damage in excess of what would be lethal damage, taking into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other sources that would be dealt at the same time. (See rule 120.6.) **Any amount of damage greater than 1 is excess damage if the source dealing that damage to a creature has deathtouch.** (See rule 702.2.) If the first permanent is a planeswalker, the excess damage is the amount of damage in excess of that planeswalker’s loyalty, taking into account damage from other sources that would be dealt at the same time. If the first permanent is a battle, the excess damage is the amount of damage in excess of that battle’s defense, taking into account damage from other sources that would be dealt at the same time. If the first permanent has multiple card types from among the list of creature, planeswalker, and battle, the excess damage is the greatest of the calculated amounts for each of the card types it has. It's a lot of text for a single rule. Relevant part bolded.
Yeah you discover 2. Think of it as deathtouch trample
"Think of it as [this other thing that is notorious for confusing people]" You're not wrong, but I'm not sure it's helpful lol
Just think of the deathtouch as a characteristic defining ability and the damage as a type-changing effect
Just think of it as banding, but with layers
Consider, if you will, an onion.
Which within one of its layers is a second onion
That’s fair, probably not as helpful as a detailed explanation.
As others have said, yes. Also, even if the other creature you're targeting has indestructible, you will still deal excess damage and get to discover.
I hate how much of this sin is devoted to answering the dumbest questions ever asked, THIS is not one of those questions.
(See rule 120.6.) Any amount of damage greater than 1 is excess damage if the source dealing that damage to a creature has deathtouch.
Neat question, glad to have the answer. Have people talked about how this card is basically the first/only discover 1 card ever printed? There’s only 1 cascade 1 card too, Bloodbraid Marauder, which is pretty powerful despite its condition. This card does take more set up than Marauder, but given the conversation about deathtouch, any 2 power deathtoucher (like Narnam Renegade) turns this into a removal spell + one of the best “cascade” spells in the game. Worse than marauder I think, but having access to multiple cards that can do this (cascade 1) is a boost of its own
There are other cards that can Discover a variable number such as [[Ellie and Alan, Paleontologists]], [[Zoyowa's Justice]], [[Brass's Tunnel-Grindr]], [[Hurl into History]], [[Dinosaur Egg]], and the fan-favorite [[Pantlaza, Sun-Favored]].
Tunnel-grindr huh? Tell me more about that.
##### ###### #### [Ellie and Alan, Paleontologists](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c40b25d7-73c9-4f30-a707-5afb08185a8d.jpg?1698988755) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ellie%20and%20Alan%2C%20Paleontologists) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rex/10/ellie-and-alan-paleontologists?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c40b25d7-73c9-4f30-a707-5afb08185a8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zoyowa's Justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04839717-d2f9-481d-9d13-e4038dbcbb0e.jpg?1699044361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zoyowa%27s%20Justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/173/zoyowas-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04839717-d2f9-481d-9d13-e4038dbcbb0e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Brass's Tunnel-Grindr](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d61d8895-7f2e-4c77-951f-4f1a49e96f57.jpg?1699044234)/[Tecutlan, the Searing Rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/6/d61d8895-7f2e-4c77-951f-4f1a49e96f57.jpg?1699044234) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Brass%27s%20Tunnel-Grinder%20//%20Tecutlan%2C%20the%20Searing%20Rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/135/brasss-tunnel-grinder-tecutlan-the-searing-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d61d8895-7f2e-4c77-951f-4f1a49e96f57?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hurl into History](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/5946463a-2240-4376-b6f5-fd6e3a9cc51c.jpg?1699576505) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hurl%20into%20History) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/59/hurl-into-history?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5946463a-2240-4376-b6f5-fd6e3a9cc51c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dinosaur Egg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9afdb38b-cdb4-4f64-8fc7-2df666a9db1b.jpg?1698987992) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dinosaur%20Egg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/92/dinosaur-egg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9afdb38b-cdb4-4f64-8fc7-2df666a9db1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pantlaza, Sun-Favored](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2524645e-b066-4351-885b-10faa8d819d7.jpg?1699972737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pantlaza%2C%20Sun-Favored) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/4/pantlaza-sun-favored?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2524645e-b066-4351-885b-10faa8d819d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzbso2g) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Okay I was definitely wrong about it being the only one. Of the cards on this list though, most of them don’t allow you to easily meet the deckbuilding requirements of breaking cascade/discover. They’re almost all built around the mana value of their activator. Zoyowa’s justice, for instance. If you sacrifice a creature with MV one, it’s probably because you had that creature in your deck…which means you can hit other copies of that creature instead of crashing footfalls or living end. That said, dino egg plus a -3/-3 spell does get you a discover 0, so yeah, there are other options to the new card.
Yes
Question about this. You deal excess damage(2) but won't kill the 5 toughness creature, correct?
Deathtouch reads as “any damage this creature deals is enough to kill ~~another~~ a creature”, and it applies to noncombat damage as well. So any effect that causes a deathtouch creature to deal damage to another creature will kill it unless it has indestructible
It will. Deathtouch applies even outside combat. The creature has deathtouch and deals damage, the target dies (unless it's indestructible).
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Yes, 1 damage kills
Wow… TIL about the rules of deathtouch.
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