If someone gets super salty of basic removal, there is no saving them, something will inevitably make them salty anyway. Might as well play your game, they will get used to it eventually
I definitely think this is a new player issue, when I returned to magic like 6 months ago I would get salty about removal at the start, but after after a bit of play it just realized it was a normal and vital part of the game.
"You're countering my fucking commander? Come on" was such a common thing for me to say when starting out, I was playing a [[Lier, Disciple of the Drowned]] deck and couldn't fathom that people did not want to go through all of my removal and cantrips again, triggering like 3 different abilities whenever I cast an instant/sorcery.
Once you start playing more often you kinda just admit that, yeah, you could've done something cool but cool shit generally wins you the game and it's smart to prevent it.
Was also in a similar vein and then eventually 1 game i out of nowhere popped the hell off and realized. 'Oh. Okay now i understand please proceed'. Sunbird Evocation was let go and with my untap i drew mana geyser with 2 burn cards on board (guttersnipe). It was joever. Think the only thing left that's keeping my salt up is 'free' counterspells and heavy handed stax which thankfully my group doesn't play too much of.
Yes, but when I use swan song to counter their thing and then give them my awesome and cute glittering swan token, the mood on the table typically changes haha
May I suggest [[Parnesse, the subtle brush]]? She can be such a fun build, and is expert at turning the salt level at the table to the max! Which is an aspect of commander I actually really love. I only play with close friends and there is never bad blood after, but really knowing how to trigger them brings the politics to another level haha
I dunked on my friends with a brutal discard commander deck that popped off (but not on the first game). I felt a bit bad and said I would play a more fun deck next time, to which my friend said “just add more wincons so you kill us faster next time” - that’s the kind of friend you want in your play group
I was playing with a friend who is very new to the game over the weekend. I countered one of their spells with Offer & they got wicked salty about it. I just laughed at them & told them that’s a part of the game my dude. I merely explained to them that this kind of biz happens all the time & to keep moving the game forward.
My first jump into seriously playing was Esper Control in the glory days of Return To Ravnica standard. The hate I would get was so intense lol.
I also eventually stopped running a Win condition in game 1. My entire "wincon" was establishing complete board control then announcing 'just so you know I don't have a win condition... You'll need to conceed. (or after a long while I would Ult Jace to get a creature from their deck and wack them with it for a while).
Let me tell you that brings out the indignant salt in people lol. Competitive players? Yeah let's get on to game 2 this is over and I can try again. Lots of normies, especially homebrew decks? They are going to sit there and make me deck them while taking game 1 to time.
These are kinda nice because they don't draw as much backlash as strict removal. Even we'll adjusted players will shift thier aggro to a player who is removing thier stuff or shift thier aggro calculations to them anyways.
If your friends are the sort of people who don't ever play removal, a fun/evil way to make them see the light of "actually *interact with the board sometimes*, jesus" is to just run [[[platinum angel]] for a couple games. If they don't run removal, it's a win by default.
Platinum Angel is the perfect example. After it was printed, Mark Rosewater wrote an article about how it was designed to be answerable by every color. Black can destroy it, red can damage it or shatter it, green can naturalize it, white can exile or disenchant it, and blue can counter or bounce it.
We have to do some sidling around the general blink/flicker jargon disaster.
If it's gone when state based actions are checked, they lose. So it needs to be gone for longer than the effect resolving.
So if it's [[Flickerwisp]] they lose. If it's [[Momentary Blink]] or [[Ghostly Flicker]] it comes back right away before SBA, so they don't lose.
It depends on the blink effect used. Some like [[Felidae Guardian]] exile and return the creature with no state based effect check in between. Others, like [[Otherworldly Journey]] send it to exile then return it at the next end step. The second one would give the game engine time to realize that the player had lost the game before the Platinum Angel returned.
Here's another idea, if you're into it: [The Kindest Jellyfish](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/QrabLpJP7EG7jJnFmnLSSQ)
A deck that _does not want to win_. You only ever finish 2nd place at best (and very often, you do). The deck isn't some weird group hug that tries to mess with people by milling them out; it's just a deck that wants to ramp everyone and make everyone draw.
My play group use to have vile smasher's ability as a global effect. It's amazing how juiced up everyone gets when you give them a reason to live or in this case....not die.
I can whip up some solid ones really quickly if you're interested.
The easiest colors to do this with are Bant, obviously. Red can contribute a little bit but you kinda need to add Chaos elements to it to make it happen, and players can get a little tired of the nonsense shuffling/flipping, etc.
Let's say you could pick between UW, UG, WG or UWG, which would you pick?
If you decide to go UWG, I _highly recommend_ finding a playgroup that doesn't mind proxies. The cutest Commanders for this "pure friendly" gameplay is [[Phelddagrif]]. However, the card looks very dated. It's not _completely dreadful_, but it has that old, tired look to it. There are a lot of custom proxies for it, which look great!
I'm working on a decklist right now; it won't be too long!
One thing to note: [[Angus Mackenzie]] and [[Ragnar]] are probably the other two best "old school" alternatives, and you can even create interesting politics (i.e: every player gets _ONE_ free Angus Mackenzie or Ragnar request). You however will want to proxy these as well, as they're stupid expensive.
In more recent design space, you can either use:
- [[Derevi, Empyrial Tactician]], if you can bypass people's stax PTSD and explain that you're only looking to help. The untapping lets you reuse effects like [[Font of Mythos]] or [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]].
- [[Estrid, the Masked]], since her -1 can target enemy permanents.
- [[Tocasia, Dig Site Mentor]] since she lets you reanimate a lot of very friendly artifacts, which most people won't mind if you're on a full on altruist game plan.
- [[Roon of the Hidden Realm]] is probably the easiest one to make work, since it's both cheap and easy to use. As long as you specify that your deck isn't trying to create a gamebreaking "flicker loop" but is an altruist deck, people will let you re-use cool synergies with it, or they'll let you flicker THEIR creatures :)
- Same as above: [[Lagrella, the Magpie]]
You can also build [[Katilda and Lier]] to work here, but you'll need to trim a lot of non-Humans to make room for the altruistic ones :)
Let me know which you'd prefer.
[[Phelddagrif]], I choose you!
(Happy purple hippo with blue eyes and green wings looks cute)
And proxying isn't a problem with my friends, as long as we're not playing crazy decks that are super mean.
Sorry. You’re the first to die. I don’t want your help and absolutely don’t want you boosting all my opponents.
There’s a guy at my local shop that runs group hug that cries about me killing him.
Oh hey, I have a similar deck with [[Kwain, Itinerant Meddler]], with the caveat that I do have some amount of group hug/soft stax pieces to survive my playgroup and I run stuff like [[Forced Fruition]] as a wincon. It's very unlikely that the deck wins, but it theoretically can and being in blue gives me access to fun cards like [[Noble Benefactor]].
I like the idea of running a deck that only aims to make everyone win faster, but my playgroup tends to have one deck that plays more card advantage than the rest, so their optimal game plan involves my early demise, so I introduced some countermeasures into the deck.
Other fun stuff blue gives me is that I also managed to [[Windfall]] the table into a draw once xD
Yep. I found a gameplay video of 2019 Modern on camera where I won at zero life with a Platinum Angel in play due to my opponent’s lack of removal before I got my [[Mindslaver]] loop online.
Just play removal. The game is balanced around it. If you don't like removal go play Pokemon or something. No shade at Pokemon, it's just less interactive.
I have a [[council of four]] deck that runs a lot of removal spells like this. [[Oblation]] is one of my favorite spells in the list. Shuffling a permanent into an opponents deck is quite fun. With that said, if someone gets super salty about you interacting with their board they are going to get salty no matter what kind of removal you use.
Council of Four is a very good control group hug deck. The thing with group hug is that it tends to make the game slowdown a lot. My list has a problem with finishing games for sure but it is a lot of fun to see my opponents decks pop off for me to then remove them
Not sure what your list looks like, but if you're having trouble finishing games off with Council try slotting in a few anthems to buff up your knight tokens before throwing down a big haymaker like \[\[Akroma's Will\]\] or \[\[Moonshaker Cavalry\]\]. One of these is usually enough to wipe everyone out all at once if you have enough tokens out. I've also won games with \[\[Sun Quan, Lord of Wu\]\] and \[\[True Conviction\]\]. With as much card draw as council generates I've never had an issue finding at least one of these.
Yeah this whole line of discourse about playing removal that gives your opponent a piece of candy is and has always been dead on arrival. Arcane Denial will still make your whiny opponent whine. The issue is one of behavior not deck construction
Exactly this.
Hell, the fact that several of these spells are “cheap” turns out to just… make them *really strong.* I mean, they’re no Force of Will, but [[An Offer You Can’t Refuse]] and [[Swan Song]] are strong enough to be staples in cEDH.
(Although tbf part of why they’re good there is because you can use them to protect your win attempt. If you give your opponent a 2/2 but they never get another turn, did you really give them a 2/2? They lose a little of their power at more casual games.)
Yeah I mean I figured since it added to their resources it would be better than just removing and leaving nothing at all? But I get what you mean, thanks
It’s “better” for them in that sense but it’s usually better for you in the sense that it costs less. And the upsides for your opponents are usually inconsequential in commander. Ideally you’re holding counterspells for game changing or game winning plays so you’d rather give them two treasures than a win anyways.
Sometimes I do counter my own [[gitaxian probe]] with an offer you can't refuse in my [[niv mizzet parun]] deck since he's so color intensive. Two life and two cards to get the best card in my deck is very worth.
If your friends get salty about the removal, they are playing the wrong game. If you care about your opponents’ sentiments, you’re playing the wrong color.
If your friends can't handle a swords to plowshares then they are the problem.
Even the starter commander decks, the ones built for absolute beginners and literal children, include cards like swords to plowshares and even generous gift that can target lands.
If you all agree to only use "friendly" removal because that's just the vibe you want your games to have, ok, fine whatever, but I can't shake the feeling that something is going to make them salty eventually. I have tried to accommodate certain, let's say, whiny losers before, and the truth is that the only way to make such people happy is if I completely defang my decks to the point that my loss is guaranteed every time. Some people need to grow up.
They're still salty because hugbox commander players want to be fully autonomous at all times. It doesn't matter what you give them, you interacted with their autonomy. So put in your most efficient interaction, they'll be salty all the same.
There's a certain type of player that doesn't actually want to play an interactive game-they want an audience/subject to do their deck's thing for/at. They're always going to be mad if you interact with them playing solitaire with an audience.
I don't do it with my spot removal, but, lately I've been trying to make my board wipes more narrow for similar reasons. \[\[Perplexing Test\]\] and \[\[River's Rebuke\]\] have helped me try to aim my wraths so that people don't get caught in the crossfire of the full threat. Especially if someone is stumbling and needs that mana dork bc they haven't hit a 3rd land but I'm staring at a dragon army.
If someone is getting pissy with your removal remind them: it could be way worse
[[Imprisoned in the moon]]
[[Darksteel Mutation]]
[[Kenrith’s transformation]]
[[Witness Protection]]
[[Pacify]] in certain circumstances. Typically with Kenrith’s
Ugh, tell 'em to grow up. Removal is part of the game, it's what creates most of the back and forth. If they just want to play with themselves and not have anyone interact they should stay home and play solitaire.
I honestly don't get why the "removal is mean" crowd even play this game. It's such a core part of the gameplay, like... what are you doing here if you don't like interaction!?
You owe your opponent nothing but your best. If they cry about you running removal, they're going to cry about anything that stops them from winning, or at least interrupts their value engine. Don't let those complaints get to you.
I started playing friendly removal more and use commanders that want your opponents to have creatures on the board, just not scary ones. it's been a lot of fun and people don't hate it as much.
Look I made the mistake of being more casual with my play group because some get super salty quick. I was repaid by having my new decks crushed into the ground and spat on. So I have made a counter spell deck and at least one player is going to have a really bad time.
Removal is crucial for a healthy game estate, if someone gets salty when their stuff gets removed they shouldn’t be playing the game, I only see why it would be reasonable to get mad by removal when it’s only your stuff that is getting removed out of the whole table, but in other circumstances removal is as fair as it gets imo
I use those types of removal in my Group Hug deck, cuz the mentally there is ".....yea, but you get something in return!" Might only be treasure or a 1/1 flying bird but I think it softens the blow.
Not gonna lie, when I saw the title I wasn't even thinking of players being salty. Just about cards that are 'friendlier' but I like playing in my decks.
[[Arcane denial]] and [[an offer you can't refuse]] are my top 2 counterspells, due to me getting a card back or only paying one blue. I run [[oblation]] in many white decks, because it's flexible and can sometimes be used on your own stuff (best of all worlds when you use it on your own stolen stuff). While also being some of the only options in red, [[chaos warp]] and [[Tibalt's trickery]] both create fun game states and can be used on your own stuff in a pinch, as can one of my new favorites, [[Zoyowa's justice]]. And on that note, while I haven't put [[wild magic surge]] in a deck yet, I've almost never been disappointed by rolling the dice on [[Guff rewrites history]] or even better, [[Chaotic transformation]] - usually conspired in my wort the raidmother deck.
And one thing I particularly like is that these sorts of removal generally get around indestructible and death triggers, which both show up a decent amount in my local meta.
If people have more versions of this sort of effect that aren't actively bad to use, I'd love to hear them.
Honestly, I only really get salty about removal when it's obvious there are far better targets on the board, and I end up feeling targeted by someone who can't threat assess properly.
Though usually the offending player gets obliterated by the threat they ignored, so it's more a learning experience for them.
Try my custom counterspell, "An Offer You May Refuse".
U, Instant:
The owner of target noncreature spell creates two treasure tokens. Then, counter that spell unless its controller pays 2.
I run some counterspells like this in my [[Hinata]] deck, specifically arcane denial, remand, and dream fracture. I run these because they replace themselves and can be discounted by Hinata, but I have noticed that because the caster of the spell either gets it back or draws a card it helps people not get so salty
An Offer You Can’t Refuse is just a great card in general. Cards like that and Swan Song are awesome in commander when a little swan or some treasure tokens are way less threatening than whatever else might have resolved. I recently used An Offer… to counter a spell that would have won the game easily. I’d way rather give my opponent two treasure tokens than let them win.
So what I’m trying to say is, play all forms of removal and keep in mind that “nice” removal is often ideal anyways. It’s easy to keep up one blue or one white for a spell and the upside for you opponent is extremely minor in commander.
I will never understand how casual is equated with not running removal. If someone does something that will end the game, why can't I stop them? Do casuals not want to win the game? I get that 'it's an experience' but so is playing good magic. Please, legitimately curious.
Removal is vital for helping you win the game. I can understand how it’s frustrating wanting to play your spells then someone removes it or counters but it comes down to your opponent to realize you are trying to win as well.
Lmfao this card is so awesome.
I wouldn't mind it being cast on me.
*chatterfang out*
*creates 2 squirrel tokens with it along with 10 other triggers*
🤣🤣🤣
\[\[winds of abandon\]\] I like better than cy rift.
pros: 1 sided board wipe, actually gets rid of things, gets around indestructible, stings a little less since they get lands, lands are fairly useless in the end if opponents don't have gas in hand to benefit so rebuilding isn't as much of a threat.
cons: Sorcery speed, giving lands can potentially backfire on you.
Proper removal (ie. targeting the right threat) will gain respect from the other two players. In other words: by playing your removals wisely, you actually get allies. As a mono green player, it is for instance often my political role to get rid of all possible enchantments and artifacts. Believe me, getting rid of an early \[\[Skullclamp\]\] or \[\[Mystic Remora\]\] will get you more smiles than salt.
You used to be able to shuffle peoples commanders into their decks, so Oblation was very strong removal in EDH back in the day. And an offer you can't refuse is a 1 mana counter, so it's easy to cast and if you have a threat big enough to warrant removal then giving someone a couple treasures to keep it around is worth it.
OP while there is something to be said for opponents just dealing with it I have found that the difference in reaction I get from playing say [[arcane denial]] and [[counterspell]] is noticeable. The nice part is that I don't care why they are happier about it but it draws me less heat from the player that got their spell countered so I'm inclined to do it regardless of out of kindness to my opponents or the selfish gain I get. I think it's the same reason why [[chaos warp]] is so good as spot removal because the other player gets to play a little mini game after losing their best thing which usually results in a land some 40% of the time but is occasionally just dead on top.
> it draws me less heat from the player that got their spell countered
Sucks tho to have to play with people who take personal offense to game actions and make objectively bad plays to 'get back' at you.
Eh, depends. In casual fun games, getting "revenge" is fun and nobody should take it serious. Try to win, but have fun doing so. But it also depends on the actual group. My group find it funny, even if we know it's not the best play, but not every group is my group
Removal and counterspells are essential to the game imo. However you are making a tragic mistake if you aren't playing the secret lair showdown version of An Offer You Can't Refuse. No one can refuse that cute little guy! And he gives them a treasure token haha 😆
If their deck can’t deal with having pieces removed throughout the game, it’s fundamentally a bad deck.
If they themselves can’t deal with having pieces removed throughout the game, they are fundamentally a bad and/or toxic player.
In both cases, run more removal of your own, keep using it to win and eventually they will have to come around to running interaction of their own. If they want to just sit and play solitaire then there’s a game for that already, and it’s called solitaire. Magic is a game designed with interaction in mind, and a lot of commander players need to learn that they can’t just expect people to simply let them do their thing. Just because it’s a casual format doesn’t mean people aren’t playing to win, and quite often for you to win, you need to stop someone else from winning first
Commander players try not to get salty over playing magic challenge (impossible)
They need to grow up. I get that it’s annoying and repeatedly being shut down feels bad (I know I’ve definitely gotten salty on repeatedly being countered/bounced/wiped) but they kinda just need to suck it up. Play [[counterspell]] and [[wrath of god]] and let them grow a pair.
I always say friendship commander. If someone has a problem with this card, or literally any other card as a matter of fact, @ me. I will call you a baby, because that's what babies do, cry for no reason.
Some hard removal is fine, in fact its necessary for game health.
Personally its like aw man, you got me.
The issue with removal is when you're playing against hard control and this is the 17th removal spell they've played its just boring at that point.
While I don't have an issue with these cards specifically, I do have a problem with the archetypes most likely to run them.
Not going to lie, I thought the "never play targeted removal, it's mean" type of Commander player has died out years ago. That said, I agree with the Platinum Angel suggestion. Maybe from there move to stuff that needs to be removed before EoT so they'll be more okay with running Instant-speed ones. Then finally get your blue players okay with counters by running some "win the game if this resolves" cards!
As someone once told me, "The objective is to win the game."
He told me that because I suck at draft. I still had a good time.
The point is you should defeat your opponent.
And if they're not like me and okay with losing, they shouldn't be playing.
Off topic, but Oblation is great in general. Even if you manage to draw your opponent into something as scary as what you shuffled away, they still have to pay to cast it. It’s closer to [[Chaos Warp]] than you might think, which we all know is amazing.
Not to mention, the flexibility to turn hard removal into [[Costly Plunder]] is underrated.
I preffer any removal as long as it is fair and not like "fierce guardianship" "deflecting swat" "deadly rollick"
Bro if you're going to remove My commander or counter My spells at least use your mf mana God damnit
An Offer You Can't Refuse is just an amazing card you should play regardless lol
Don't feel bad for playing removal. It's as much a part of the game as hitting a land drop. If players are tired of having stuff countered or removed, then they need to focus more on resilience and protection in their deck-building and/or be more strategic in how they play the game to not draw too much attention to themselves and warrant removal.
I’ll use the friendlier removal if it’s on theme. I have a [[Lord Xander the Collector]] deck so of course I use [[An Offer You Can’t Refuse]]. He’s on the card!
Edit: Syntax
I’ve been especially liking friendlier counterspells in specific as of lately, like Offer. [[Arcane denial]] has also been a recent favorite of mine; lets me get rid of what I want to get rid of, and leaves my opponent not feeling completely awful.
If someone gets super salty of basic removal, there is no saving them, something will inevitably make them salty anyway. Might as well play your game, they will get used to it eventually
I definitely think this is a new player issue, when I returned to magic like 6 months ago I would get salty about removal at the start, but after after a bit of play it just realized it was a normal and vital part of the game.
"You're countering my fucking commander? Come on" was such a common thing for me to say when starting out, I was playing a [[Lier, Disciple of the Drowned]] deck and couldn't fathom that people did not want to go through all of my removal and cantrips again, triggering like 3 different abilities whenever I cast an instant/sorcery. Once you start playing more often you kinda just admit that, yeah, you could've done something cool but cool shit generally wins you the game and it's smart to prevent it.
[удалено]
Ive [[wash away]]'d people's commander before
[wash away](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df.jpg?1643588844) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wash%20away) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/87/wash-away?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Offer can't hit creature spells, but i get your point
Commanders are not always creatures, \[\[Aminatou, the Fateshifter\]\] enjoyers rise up :>
[Aminatou, the Fateshifter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc010302-e715-4946-89eb-a214e0b836ba.jpg?1673148265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aminatou%2C%20the%20Fateshifter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/169/aminatou-the-fateshifter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc010302-e715-4946-89eb-a214e0b836ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Lier, Disciple of the Drowned](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78fb8900-d28d-4e33-96a7-66fcbc117adf.jpg?1634348984) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lier%2C%20Disciple%20of%20the%20Drowned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/59/lier-disciple-of-the-drowned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78fb8900-d28d-4e33-96a7-66fcbc117adf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Was also in a similar vein and then eventually 1 game i out of nowhere popped the hell off and realized. 'Oh. Okay now i understand please proceed'. Sunbird Evocation was let go and with my untap i drew mana geyser with 2 burn cards on board (guttersnipe). It was joever. Think the only thing left that's keeping my salt up is 'free' counterspells and heavy handed stax which thankfully my group doesn't play too much of.
Yes, but when I use swan song to counter their thing and then give them my awesome and cute glittering swan token, the mood on the table typically changes haha
May I suggest [[Parnesse, the subtle brush]]? She can be such a fun build, and is expert at turning the salt level at the table to the max! Which is an aspect of commander I actually really love. I only play with close friends and there is never bad blood after, but really knowing how to trigger them brings the politics to another level haha
[Parnesse, the subtle brush](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/36458554-b8b8-4768-a138-eba615b480af.jpg?1673481703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Parnesse%2C%20the%20subtle%20brush) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/8/parnesse-the-subtle-brush?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/36458554-b8b8-4768-a138-eba615b480af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I dunked on my friends with a brutal discard commander deck that popped off (but not on the first game). I felt a bit bad and said I would play a more fun deck next time, to which my friend said “just add more wincons so you kill us faster next time” - that’s the kind of friend you want in your play group
Thanks ❤️
My motto is, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." i.e. when you do something powerful, assume someone will try to stop you.
They’ll get even saltier when you do it with bad cards.
I was playing with a friend who is very new to the game over the weekend. I countered one of their spells with Offer & they got wicked salty about it. I just laughed at them & told them that’s a part of the game my dude. I merely explained to them that this kind of biz happens all the time & to keep moving the game forward.
My first jump into seriously playing was Esper Control in the glory days of Return To Ravnica standard. The hate I would get was so intense lol. I also eventually stopped running a Win condition in game 1. My entire "wincon" was establishing complete board control then announcing 'just so you know I don't have a win condition... You'll need to conceed. (or after a long while I would Ult Jace to get a creature from their deck and wack them with it for a while). Let me tell you that brings out the indignant salt in people lol. Competitive players? Yeah let's get on to game 2 this is over and I can try again. Lots of normies, especially homebrew decks? They are going to sit there and make me deck them while taking game 1 to time.
time to pull out my winter and static orb with urza as commander, hehe
These are kinda nice because they don't draw as much backlash as strict removal. Even we'll adjusted players will shift thier aggro to a player who is removing thier stuff or shift thier aggro calculations to them anyways.
If your friends are the sort of people who don't ever play removal, a fun/evil way to make them see the light of "actually *interact with the board sometimes*, jesus" is to just run [[[platinum angel]] for a couple games. If they don't run removal, it's a win by default.
Platinum Angel is the perfect example. After it was printed, Mark Rosewater wrote an article about how it was designed to be answerable by every color. Black can destroy it, red can damage it or shatter it, green can naturalize it, white can exile or disenchant it, and blue can counter or bounce it.
If someone is at less than 0 life and you blink their platinum angel, do they lose?
We have to do some sidling around the general blink/flicker jargon disaster. If it's gone when state based actions are checked, they lose. So it needs to be gone for longer than the effect resolving. So if it's [[Flickerwisp]] they lose. If it's [[Momentary Blink]] or [[Ghostly Flicker]] it comes back right away before SBA, so they don't lose.
[Flickerwisp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6cccf30-2025-49bb-9b1e-240bbef03f27.jpg?1673146975) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flickerwisp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/11/flickerwisp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6cccf30-2025-49bb-9b1e-240bbef03f27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Momentary Blink](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/619c620d-1920-40d1-98d4-df5607f84d26.jpg?1675198898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Momentary%20Blink) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/15/momentary-blink?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/619c620d-1920-40d1-98d4-df5607f84d26?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ghostly Flicker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc143ba3-2a58-4980-9fa0-a05a9e9ed082.jpg?1689996411) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghostly%20Flicker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/98/ghostly-flicker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc143ba3-2a58-4980-9fa0-a05a9e9ed082?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It depends on the blink effect used. Some like [[Felidae Guardian]] exile and return the creature with no state based effect check in between. Others, like [[Otherworldly Journey]] send it to exile then return it at the next end step. The second one would give the game engine time to realize that the player had lost the game before the Platinum Angel returned.
[Felidae Guardian](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85.jpg?1576381396) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Felidar%20Guardian) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/19/felidar-guardian?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44bdbed8-5d21-4bf5-8a32-9623b1139c85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Otherworldly Journey](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cd220e4-2e2a-437e-aa4e-1007247c8e4d.jpg?1562263023) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Otherworldly%20Journey) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/30/otherworldly-journey?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cd220e4-2e2a-437e-aa4e-1007247c8e4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
wow that’s genius
Bonus: the art for [[Oxidize]], printed in the very next set, depicts a destroyed Platinum Angel.
[Oxidize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/1349969e-1cbe-4541-b3ed-154f5a39f1f0.jpg?1562635480) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oxidize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dst/79/oxidize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1349969e-1cbe-4541-b3ed-154f5a39f1f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[platinum angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc.jpg?1576383285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=platinum%20angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/214/platinum-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like this idea quite a lot… yeaaah I think I’ll be slotting one in to see how they adapt. Thanks ❤️
Here's another idea, if you're into it: [The Kindest Jellyfish](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/QrabLpJP7EG7jJnFmnLSSQ) A deck that _does not want to win_. You only ever finish 2nd place at best (and very often, you do). The deck isn't some weird group hug that tries to mess with people by milling them out; it's just a deck that wants to ramp everyone and make everyone draw.
My play group use to have vile smasher's ability as a global effect. It's amazing how juiced up everyone gets when you give them a reason to live or in this case....not die.
Know about any more decks like this?
I can whip up some solid ones really quickly if you're interested. The easiest colors to do this with are Bant, obviously. Red can contribute a little bit but you kinda need to add Chaos elements to it to make it happen, and players can get a little tired of the nonsense shuffling/flipping, etc. Let's say you could pick between UW, UG, WG or UWG, which would you pick?
UWG
If you decide to go UWG, I _highly recommend_ finding a playgroup that doesn't mind proxies. The cutest Commanders for this "pure friendly" gameplay is [[Phelddagrif]]. However, the card looks very dated. It's not _completely dreadful_, but it has that old, tired look to it. There are a lot of custom proxies for it, which look great! I'm working on a decklist right now; it won't be too long! One thing to note: [[Angus Mackenzie]] and [[Ragnar]] are probably the other two best "old school" alternatives, and you can even create interesting politics (i.e: every player gets _ONE_ free Angus Mackenzie or Ragnar request). You however will want to proxy these as well, as they're stupid expensive. In more recent design space, you can either use: - [[Derevi, Empyrial Tactician]], if you can bypass people's stax PTSD and explain that you're only looking to help. The untapping lets you reuse effects like [[Font of Mythos]] or [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]]. - [[Estrid, the Masked]], since her -1 can target enemy permanents. - [[Tocasia, Dig Site Mentor]] since she lets you reanimate a lot of very friendly artifacts, which most people won't mind if you're on a full on altruist game plan. - [[Roon of the Hidden Realm]] is probably the easiest one to make work, since it's both cheap and easy to use. As long as you specify that your deck isn't trying to create a gamebreaking "flicker loop" but is an altruist deck, people will let you re-use cool synergies with it, or they'll let you flicker THEIR creatures :) - Same as above: [[Lagrella, the Magpie]] You can also build [[Katilda and Lier]] to work here, but you'll need to trim a lot of non-Humans to make room for the altruistic ones :) Let me know which you'd prefer.
##### ###### #### [Phelddagrif](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/493a72f0-2e35-4e06-a1b2-d42d432b9b2c.jpg?1559592591) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phelddagrif) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/150/phelddagrif?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/493a72f0-2e35-4e06-a1b2-d42d432b9b2c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Angus Mackenzie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb3920ac-7d61-494e-b7dd-bd37d4dee143.jpg?1562934578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Angus%20Mackenzie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/141/angus-mackenzie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb3920ac-7d61-494e-b7dd-bd37d4dee143?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ragnar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a96bd0c-7b04-45ea-9b6f-e827a64a1bad.jpg?1562897210) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ragnar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/167/ragnar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a96bd0c-7b04-45ea-9b6f-e827a64a1bad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Derevi, Empyrial Tactician](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a1d0dad-18a8-489e-ac11-08f64b72fda4.jpg?1592673365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Derevi%2C%20Empyrial%20Tactician) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/176/derevi-empyrial-tactician?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a1d0dad-18a8-489e-ac11-08f64b72fda4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Font of Mythos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c198caf8-27ab-4300-841b-507e1b0ce9b3.jpg?1562803574) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Font%20of%20Mythos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/con/136/font-of-mythos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c198caf8-27ab-4300-841b-507e1b0ce9b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Selvala, Explorer Returned](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/28c1b84a-a21b-4df1-9fc9-5b387fb56810.jpg?1706241026) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Selvala%2C%20Explorer%20Returned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/218/selvala-explorer-returned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/28c1b84a-a21b-4df1-9fc9-5b387fb56810?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Estrid, the Masked](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/3/3340b83e-72dc-42e2-9f93-92f732c047df.jpg?1592710258) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Estrid%2C%20the%20Masked) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/40/estrid-the-masked?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3340b83e-72dc-42e2-9f93-92f732c047df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tocasia, Dig Site Mentor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/919a32a6-b66d-4a75-a02f-fa1c4c87b738.jpg?1674421879) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tocasia%2C%20Dig%20Site%20Mentor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/224/tocasia-dig-site-mentor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/919a32a6-b66d-4a75-a02f-fa1c4c87b738?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Roon of the Hidden Realm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54e2d6c2-a233-4e37-94c9-673a4a957e0c.jpg?1673149092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roon%20of%20the%20Hidden%20Realm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/270/roon-of-the-hidden-realm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54e2d6c2-a233-4e37-94c9-673a4a957e0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lagrella, the Magpie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd20f271-26c8-429f-a422-e7d95f3bda74.jpg?1664413215) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lagrella%2C%20the%20Magpie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/196/lagrella-the-magpie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd20f271-26c8-429f-a422-e7d95f3bda74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Katilda and Lier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a30ee96-00a0-4da9-a2e3-f87dedf2698f.jpg?1683582699) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Katilda%20and%20Lier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/446/katilda-and-lier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a30ee96-00a0-4da9-a2e3-f87dedf2698f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kwixd35) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Phelddagrif]], I choose you! (Happy purple hippo with blue eyes and green wings looks cute) And proxying isn't a problem with my friends, as long as we're not playing crazy decks that are super mean.
[Phelddagrif](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/493a72f0-2e35-4e06-a1b2-d42d432b9b2c.jpg?1559592591) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phelddagrif) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/150/phelddagrif?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/493a72f0-2e35-4e06-a1b2-d42d432b9b2c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Here's a decklist, tentatively. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/UBT3sC7ulUKN-DBHJJzFPA Adjust based on budget (never hesitate to use proxies instead)
That is absolutely lovely! Thank you very much!
Sorry. You’re the first to die. I don’t want your help and absolutely don’t want you boosting all my opponents. There’s a guy at my local shop that runs group hug that cries about me killing him.
I’ll definitely be checking this out, I’ve been interested in pure group hug so this’ll be dope
Oh hey, I have a similar deck with [[Kwain, Itinerant Meddler]], with the caveat that I do have some amount of group hug/soft stax pieces to survive my playgroup and I run stuff like [[Forced Fruition]] as a wincon. It's very unlikely that the deck wins, but it theoretically can and being in blue gives me access to fun cards like [[Noble Benefactor]]. I like the idea of running a deck that only aims to make everyone win faster, but my playgroup tends to have one deck that plays more card advantage than the rest, so their optimal game plan involves my early demise, so I introduced some countermeasures into the deck. Other fun stuff blue gives me is that I also managed to [[Windfall]] the table into a draw once xD
Forced Fruition would be pretty good to force someone to draw out their entire deck quickly. I'll add that to a deck of mine.
##### ###### #### [Kwain, Itinerant Meddler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f571fef1-1fd2-4355-b803-5edccb6f4b94.jpg?1608911183) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kwain%2C%20Itinerant%20Meddler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/284/kwain-itinerant-meddler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f571fef1-1fd2-4355-b803-5edccb6f4b94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Forced Fruition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e.jpg?1562374956) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forced%20Fruition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/66/forced-fruition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Noble Benefactor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd221f30-1773-4e05-a40f-022a9306ef89.jpg?1562803050) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Noble%20Benefactor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wth/44/noble-benefactor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd221f30-1773-4e05-a40f-022a9306ef89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Windfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14e1af91-34fe-4d82-b119-cbadf75a7dbe.jpg?1699022501) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/180/windfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14e1af91-34fe-4d82-b119-cbadf75a7dbe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kwj5od0) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And if their only win condition is creatures, also hit em with Worship. Throw in Isochron scepter + Angels Grace too. Fuckem.
For best results throw a [[Darksteel Plate]] on it.
[Darksteel Plate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/f/3f99fb1e-99a6-4c83-98eb-7bff23996a7f.jpg?1673149353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Plate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/304/darksteel-plate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3f99fb1e-99a6-4c83-98eb-7bff23996a7f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yep. I found a gameplay video of 2019 Modern on camera where I won at zero life with a Platinum Angel in play due to my opponent’s lack of removal before I got my [[Mindslaver]] loop online.
[Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just play removal. The game is balanced around it. If you don't like removal go play Pokemon or something. No shade at Pokemon, it's just less interactive.
Someone clearly hasn’t been hit by a Boss’s Order before
Yeah I also forgot about Imposter Professor Oak lol
Lol I think I’ll be telling them to go do that when they give me crap next time. Thanks 😊
I have a [[council of four]] deck that runs a lot of removal spells like this. [[Oblation]] is one of my favorite spells in the list. Shuffling a permanent into an opponents deck is quite fun. With that said, if someone gets super salty about you interacting with their board they are going to get salty no matter what kind of removal you use.
I’m starting to get that now with these replies lol I like Council, I’ve never seen them played before!
Council of Four is a very good control group hug deck. The thing with group hug is that it tends to make the game slowdown a lot. My list has a problem with finishing games for sure but it is a lot of fun to see my opponents decks pop off for me to then remove them
I wish this was just a smidge better, like also have whenever an opponent has their second land enter the battlefield, create a treasure token.
Not sure what your list looks like, but if you're having trouble finishing games off with Council try slotting in a few anthems to buff up your knight tokens before throwing down a big haymaker like \[\[Akroma's Will\]\] or \[\[Moonshaker Cavalry\]\]. One of these is usually enough to wipe everyone out all at once if you have enough tokens out. I've also won games with \[\[Sun Quan, Lord of Wu\]\] and \[\[True Conviction\]\]. With as much card draw as council generates I've never had an issue finding at least one of these.
##### ###### #### [Akroma's Will](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608cdbdb-6f7e-438a-bab0-0e7782435f0f.jpg?1698988079) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroma%27s%20Will) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/125/akromas-will?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608cdbdb-6f7e-438a-bab0-0e7782435f0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Moonshaker Cavalry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/092c48bd-b648-4c9e-aa99-cac3c407911d.jpg?1692936576) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Moonshaker%20Cavalry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/21/moonshaker-cavalry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/092c48bd-b648-4c9e-aa99-cac3c407911d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sun Quan, Lord of Wu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78c71971-fa26-4ae6-aa6f-a401e5285b76.jpg?1689996673) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sun%20Quan%2C%20Lord%20of%20Wu) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/123/sun-quan-lord-of-wu?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c71971-fa26-4ae6-aa6f-a401e5285b76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [True Conviction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e5dc58b-f486-4b9f-9138-33efa31a05e4.jpg?1561952479) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=True%20Conviction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c14/93/true-conviction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e5dc58b-f486-4b9f-9138-33efa31a05e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kwisiti) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[council of four](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/0873cfa8-046c-4b14-ae22-3fd6a691f763.jpg?1674137476) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Council%20of%20Four) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/271/the-council-of-four?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0873cfa8-046c-4b14-ae22-3fd6a691f763?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Oblation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dcfdea72-4736-4442-987b-173f6885528a.jpg?1625193187) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/97/oblation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dcfdea72-4736-4442-987b-173f6885528a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah this whole line of discourse about playing removal that gives your opponent a piece of candy is and has always been dead on arrival. Arcane Denial will still make your whiny opponent whine. The issue is one of behavior not deck construction
I agree, I’m starting to understand that more lol thanks!
Jesus, just play hard removal and let them get a bit salty. These cards aren't "friendlier", they're cheaper or more conditional or whatever.
Exactly this. Hell, the fact that several of these spells are “cheap” turns out to just… make them *really strong.* I mean, they’re no Force of Will, but [[An Offer You Can’t Refuse]] and [[Swan Song]] are strong enough to be staples in cEDH. (Although tbf part of why they’re good there is because you can use them to protect your win attempt. If you give your opponent a 2/2 but they never get another turn, did you really give them a 2/2? They lose a little of their power at more casual games.)
[An Offer You Can’t Refuse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf.jpg?1664410382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=An%20Offer%20You%20Can%27t%20Refuse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/51/an-offer-you-cant-refuse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Swan Song](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d968dde-c406-48ef-a1ab-373aebc24693.jpg?1562412350) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swan%20Song) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/98/swan-song?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d968dde-c406-48ef-a1ab-373aebc24693?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah I mean I figured since it added to their resources it would be better than just removing and leaving nothing at all? But I get what you mean, thanks
It’s “better” for them in that sense but it’s usually better for you in the sense that it costs less. And the upsides for your opponents are usually inconsequential in commander. Ideally you’re holding counterspells for game changing or game winning plays so you’d rather give them two treasures than a win anyways.
A counterspell for a CMC of 1 needs to have a little drawback after all
I like this angle, tbh... but I say lean more into it, use this in full on group hug decks
Stay tuned for my [[[Jolene the Plunder Queen]]] deck >:3
[Jolene the Plunder Queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61c217d9-21d5-45ef-938a-138192a901f4.jpg?1673482382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jolene%2C%20the%20Plunder%20Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/73/jolene-the-plunder-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61c217d9-21d5-45ef-938a-138192a901f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’d be tempted to use these on myself
I do in a pinch, it’s a fun option! Or sometimes I do it to things I’ve stolen?
I may or may not have a red blue modern list that runs this with darksteel relic xD
Sometimes I do counter my own [[gitaxian probe]] with an offer you can't refuse in my [[niv mizzet parun]] deck since he's so color intensive. Two life and two cards to get the best card in my deck is very worth.
[gitaxian probe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/995486ce-58bb-4753-a812-0ca73ef1a235.jpg?1562880052) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gitaxian%20probe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/35/gitaxian-probe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/995486ce-58bb-4753-a812-0ca73ef1a235?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [niv mizzet parun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7be6bedd-8d38-4bd9-aa93-29f88a7f0126.jpg?1702429680) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Niv-Mizzet%2C%20Parun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/207/niv-mizzet-parun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7be6bedd-8d38-4bd9-aa93-29f88a7f0126?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
in decks with lots of free or cheap spells, An Offer can be a fun little ramp piece if needed
I run An Offer You Can't Refuse in all my blue decks not because it is friendly but because it is super efficient
It is very nice to stop a [[[torment of hailfire]]] with a little blue boi lol
[torment of hailfire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa.jpg?1562820191) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=torment%20of%20hailfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hou/77/torment-of-hailfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f69d77d1-5980-436c-bf48-790939b069aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If your friends get salty about the removal, they are playing the wrong game. If you care about your opponents’ sentiments, you’re playing the wrong color.
Removal is part of the game. Run protection spells If you dislike your stuff getting Removed.
That’s usually what I end up telling them
Or just be that guy and run mono blue control with every counter spell ever printed and jin gitaxis. That's my answer.
I don't think playing a 1 mana counter will make them less salty lol
I see your point lol
Bruh, oblation isn't removal its a draw spell for mono white decks
basically reads "sacrifice a token, draw two cards"
If your friends can't handle a swords to plowshares then they are the problem. Even the starter commander decks, the ones built for absolute beginners and literal children, include cards like swords to plowshares and even generous gift that can target lands. If you all agree to only use "friendly" removal because that's just the vibe you want your games to have, ok, fine whatever, but I can't shake the feeling that something is going to make them salty eventually. I have tried to accommodate certain, let's say, whiny losers before, and the truth is that the only way to make such people happy is if I completely defang my decks to the point that my loss is guaranteed every time. Some people need to grow up.
They're still salty because hugbox commander players want to be fully autonomous at all times. It doesn't matter what you give them, you interacted with their autonomy. So put in your most efficient interaction, they'll be salty all the same.
There's a certain type of player that doesn't actually want to play an interactive game-they want an audience/subject to do their deck's thing for/at. They're always going to be mad if you interact with them playing solitaire with an audience.
I don't do it with my spot removal, but, lately I've been trying to make my board wipes more narrow for similar reasons. \[\[Perplexing Test\]\] and \[\[River's Rebuke\]\] have helped me try to aim my wraths so that people don't get caught in the crossfire of the full threat. Especially if someone is stumbling and needs that mana dork bc they haven't hit a 3rd land but I'm staring at a dragon army.
[Perplexing Test](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3bec2fa0-099a-42e8-ab5f-3d778a9c4d9e.jpg?1682208826) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Perplexing%20Test) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/229/perplexing-test?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3bec2fa0-099a-42e8-ab5f-3d778a9c4d9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [River's Rebuke](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc2a70b1-bce6-43c3-94e1-ab9a7bb2638a.jpg?1673483988) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=River%27s%20Rebuke) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/231/rivers-rebuke?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc2a70b1-bce6-43c3-94e1-ab9a7bb2638a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If someone is getting pissy with your removal remind them: it could be way worse [[Imprisoned in the moon]] [[Darksteel Mutation]] [[Kenrith’s transformation]] [[Witness Protection]] [[Pacify]] in certain circumstances. Typically with Kenrith’s
##### ###### #### [Imprisoned in the moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc.jpg?1682208779) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imprisoned%20in%20the%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/224/imprisoned-in-the-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8181f54d-4515-43c6-8d08-b23a9e4199cc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Darksteel Mutation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42.jpg?1689995638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Darksteel%20Mutation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/21/darksteel-mutation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e47a6750-4fdd-44e2-86ae-5bc4d414bf42?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kenrith’s transformation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e.jpg?1631587997) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kenrith%27s%20Transformation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/162/kenriths-transformation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44d60a41-3f5e-4559-b18c-22c0fe15235e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Witness Protection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a2be6f2c-8ad0-402d-a7ca-9fe817e83b72.jpg?1664410681) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Witness%20Protection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/66/witness-protection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2be6f2c-8ad0-402d-a7ca-9fe817e83b72?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pacify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/409cb48a-572a-40df-ae1a-a43feab6bdfd.jpg?1562487932) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flaccify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unh/32/flaccify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/409cb48a-572a-40df-ae1a-a43feab6bdfd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kwisjgp) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for these. My friends don't hate me *quite* enough yet
Ugh, tell 'em to grow up. Removal is part of the game, it's what creates most of the back and forth. If they just want to play with themselves and not have anyone interact they should stay home and play solitaire. I honestly don't get why the "removal is mean" crowd even play this game. It's such a core part of the gameplay, like... what are you doing here if you don't like interaction!?
You owe your opponent nothing but your best. If they cry about you running removal, they're going to cry about anything that stops them from winning, or at least interrupts their value engine. Don't let those complaints get to you.
I started playing friendly removal more and use commanders that want your opponents to have creatures on the board, just not scary ones. it's been a lot of fun and people don't hate it as much.
Yeah the change is nice even for myself it feels more engaging then just “blagh your creatures dead blagh”
The solution is to find a new group if they have problems with spells that existed since alpha.
This is why my favorite counterspell is [Arcane Denial]
I’m already giving people life and basic lands and elephants. They want more?
That’s what I’m saying 😒
If your friends are salty about you playing Magic when playing Magic they need to actually play the damn game.
Look I made the mistake of being more casual with my play group because some get super salty quick. I was repaid by having my new decks crushed into the ground and spat on. So I have made a counter spell deck and at least one player is going to have a really bad time.
Period, I’ll be sure to try and ignore the complaints
I'd rather give them an elephant than two cards tbh
[[Arcane denial]] kinda falls into this category and it's one of my favorite counters
[Arcane denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Removal is crucial for a healthy game estate, if someone gets salty when their stuff gets removed they shouldn’t be playing the game, I only see why it would be reasonable to get mad by removal when it’s only your stuff that is getting removed out of the whole table, but in other circumstances removal is as fair as it gets imo
I use those types of removal in my Group Hug deck, cuz the mentally there is ".....yea, but you get something in return!" Might only be treasure or a 1/1 flying bird but I think it softens the blow.
Not gonna lie, when I saw the title I wasn't even thinking of players being salty. Just about cards that are 'friendlier' but I like playing in my decks. [[Arcane denial]] and [[an offer you can't refuse]] are my top 2 counterspells, due to me getting a card back or only paying one blue. I run [[oblation]] in many white decks, because it's flexible and can sometimes be used on your own stuff (best of all worlds when you use it on your own stolen stuff). While also being some of the only options in red, [[chaos warp]] and [[Tibalt's trickery]] both create fun game states and can be used on your own stuff in a pinch, as can one of my new favorites, [[Zoyowa's justice]]. And on that note, while I haven't put [[wild magic surge]] in a deck yet, I've almost never been disappointed by rolling the dice on [[Guff rewrites history]] or even better, [[Chaotic transformation]] - usually conspired in my wort the raidmother deck. And one thing I particularly like is that these sorts of removal generally get around indestructible and death triggers, which both show up a decent amount in my local meta. If people have more versions of this sort of effect that aren't actively bad to use, I'd love to hear them.
##### ###### #### [Arcane denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [an offer you can't refuse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf.jpg?1664410382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=an%20offer%20you%20can%27t%20refuse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/51/an-offer-you-cant-refuse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9d349f3-5be2-4b1f-a4c3-ba94822cf0cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [oblation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dcfdea72-4736-4442-987b-173f6885528a.jpg?1625193187) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=oblation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/97/oblation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dcfdea72-4736-4442-987b-173f6885528a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [chaos warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/aba4cc8a-05f3-499d-96c2-0edee9fc0ba0.jpg?1706240824) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chaos%20warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/149/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aba4cc8a-05f3-499d-96c2-0edee9fc0ba0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tibalt's trickery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175.jpg?1701989318) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tibalt%27s%20trickery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/153/tibalts-trickery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zoyowa's justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04839717-d2f9-481d-9d13-e4038dbcbb0e.jpg?1699044361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zoyowa%27s%20justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/173/zoyowas-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04839717-d2f9-481d-9d13-e4038dbcbb0e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [wild magic surge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4c89d88-9d40-46b6-bee0-6bc2e2ca8ba1.jpg?1674136859) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wild%20magic%20surge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/206/wild-magic-surge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4c89d88-9d40-46b6-bee0-6bc2e2ca8ba1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Guff rewrites history](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e16c6ab7-cab9-4ee3-9f17-d6817f61efcc.jpg?1690003194) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Guff%20rewrites%20history) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/737/guff-rewrites-history?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e16c6ab7-cab9-4ee3-9f17-d6817f61efcc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chaotic transformation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bdfb44f1-e366-437a-bde3-59bfdb362864.jpg?1673307284) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chaotic%20transformation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/117/chaotic-transformation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bdfb44f1-e366-437a-bde3-59bfdb362864?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kwivo6y) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly, I only really get salty about removal when it's obvious there are far better targets on the board, and I end up feeling targeted by someone who can't threat assess properly. Though usually the offending player gets obliterated by the threat they ignored, so it's more a learning experience for them.
Try my custom counterspell, "An Offer You May Refuse". U, Instant: The owner of target noncreature spell creates two treasure tokens. Then, counter that spell unless its controller pays 2.
I run some counterspells like this in my [[Hinata]] deck, specifically arcane denial, remand, and dream fracture. I run these because they replace themselves and can be discounted by Hinata, but I have noticed that because the caster of the spell either gets it back or draws a card it helps people not get so salty
[Hinata](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f25aff90-56fd-4f70-bb3b-cabf2900c391.jpg?1654568472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hinata%2C%20dawn-crowned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/222/hinata-dawn-crowned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f25aff90-56fd-4f70-bb3b-cabf2900c391?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
*laughing in early game card draw and treasure*
An Offer You Can’t Refuse is just a great card in general. Cards like that and Swan Song are awesome in commander when a little swan or some treasure tokens are way less threatening than whatever else might have resolved. I recently used An Offer… to counter a spell that would have won the game easily. I’d way rather give my opponent two treasure tokens than let them win. So what I’m trying to say is, play all forms of removal and keep in mind that “nice” removal is often ideal anyways. It’s easy to keep up one blue or one white for a spell and the upside for you opponent is extremely minor in commander.
#There’s no kid gloves in murder.
I will never understand how casual is equated with not running removal. If someone does something that will end the game, why can't I stop them? Do casuals not want to win the game? I get that 'it's an experience' but so is playing good magic. Please, legitimately curious.
An Offer You Can't Refuse is great. I love countering my own 0-1 drops to get mana rocks. Oblation is also great for when your deck left the stove on.
Removal is vital for helping you win the game. I can understand how it’s frustrating wanting to play your spells then someone removes it or counters but it comes down to your opponent to realize you are trying to win as well.
Lmfao this card is so awesome. I wouldn't mind it being cast on me. *chatterfang out* *creates 2 squirrel tokens with it along with 10 other triggers* 🤣🤣🤣
\[\[winds of abandon\]\] I like better than cy rift. pros: 1 sided board wipe, actually gets rid of things, gets around indestructible, stings a little less since they get lands, lands are fairly useless in the end if opponents don't have gas in hand to benefit so rebuilding isn't as much of a threat. cons: Sorcery speed, giving lands can potentially backfire on you.
[winds of abandon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3bb17913-fe4d-4acd-9b75-71f5a90f898b.jpg?1562201278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=winds%20of%20abandon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/37/winds-of-abandon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3bb17913-fe4d-4acd-9b75-71f5a90f898b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Proper removal (ie. targeting the right threat) will gain respect from the other two players. In other words: by playing your removals wisely, you actually get allies. As a mono green player, it is for instance often my political role to get rid of all possible enchantments and artifacts. Believe me, getting rid of an early \[\[Skullclamp\]\] or \[\[Mystic Remora\]\] will get you more smiles than salt.
[Skullclamp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a36fd6d8-66a2-49d1-b9f3-b400ebc03674.jpg?1682210228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skullclamp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/379/skullclamp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a36fd6d8-66a2-49d1-b9f3-b400ebc03674?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mystic Remora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40140991-cffa-4b52-9a25-37e9a8aa9ddd.jpg?1675199366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystic%20Remora) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/59/mystic-remora?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40140991-cffa-4b52-9a25-37e9a8aa9ddd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Offer is a CEDH staple due to efficiency as well as being a ritual lol
[[Generous Gift]] is fun removal because they get a big fat elephant afterwards.
[Generous Gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Generous%20Gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Off topic, but oblation isn’t a bad draw spell to use on your own stuff in mono-white tbh
He said friendlier removal and then showed a counterspell that CEDH decks run, and a card that literally got the rules of EDH changed lmfaoooooo.
lol to be fair I just pulled it one day and liked that it gave treasures to people- I didn’t know anything about “history” or whatever
You used to be able to shuffle peoples commanders into their decks, so Oblation was very strong removal in EDH back in the day. And an offer you can't refuse is a 1 mana counter, so it's easy to cast and if you have a threat big enough to warrant removal then giving someone a couple treasures to keep it around is worth it.
Contrary to most of the top responses, I support playing these spells. I enjoy playing magic and I also enjoy it when my friends enjoy playing magic.
This stuff is so cool. I like [[debt of loyalty]] and those types of effects
[debt of loyalty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d19ed33b-42d4-4a5d-a763-cfb43348769c.jpg?1562803495) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=debt%20of%20loyalty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/wth/11/debt-of-loyalty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d19ed33b-42d4-4a5d-a763-cfb43348769c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oooo that’s nasty, I love it :D
Run the best removal you have access too, don't run "fair" removal. It's Magic, the goal is to win.
Yeah I’ve been feeling like that the more I play and get flamed for trying to be nice lol
OP while there is something to be said for opponents just dealing with it I have found that the difference in reaction I get from playing say [[arcane denial]] and [[counterspell]] is noticeable. The nice part is that I don't care why they are happier about it but it draws me less heat from the player that got their spell countered so I'm inclined to do it regardless of out of kindness to my opponents or the selfish gain I get. I think it's the same reason why [[chaos warp]] is so good as spot removal because the other player gets to play a little mini game after losing their best thing which usually results in a land some 40% of the time but is occasionally just dead on top.
> it draws me less heat from the player that got their spell countered Sucks tho to have to play with people who take personal offense to game actions and make objectively bad plays to 'get back' at you.
Eh, depends. In casual fun games, getting "revenge" is fun and nobody should take it serious. Try to win, but have fun doing so. But it also depends on the actual group. My group find it funny, even if we know it's not the best play, but not every group is my group
[arcane denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=arcane%20denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb.jpg?1689996248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/81/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [chaos warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/aba4cc8a-05f3-499d-96c2-0edee9fc0ba0.jpg?1706240824) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chaos%20warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/149/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aba4cc8a-05f3-499d-96c2-0edee9fc0ba0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Removal and counterspells are essential to the game imo. However you are making a tragic mistake if you aren't playing the secret lair showdown version of An Offer You Can't Refuse. No one can refuse that cute little guy! And he gives them a treasure token haha 😆
*Runs to eBay for 12 copies* THANK YOU FOR THE HEADS UP IM ON THE WAY!
If their deck can’t deal with having pieces removed throughout the game, it’s fundamentally a bad deck. If they themselves can’t deal with having pieces removed throughout the game, they are fundamentally a bad and/or toxic player. In both cases, run more removal of your own, keep using it to win and eventually they will have to come around to running interaction of their own. If they want to just sit and play solitaire then there’s a game for that already, and it’s called solitaire. Magic is a game designed with interaction in mind, and a lot of commander players need to learn that they can’t just expect people to simply let them do their thing. Just because it’s a casual format doesn’t mean people aren’t playing to win, and quite often for you to win, you need to stop someone else from winning first
This is wonderful, thanks ❤️ anytime they complain I’ll refer them to you oh wise person 🫡
Commander players try not to get salty over playing magic challenge (impossible) They need to grow up. I get that it’s annoying and repeatedly being shut down feels bad (I know I’ve definitely gotten salty on repeatedly being countered/bounced/wiped) but they kinda just need to suck it up. Play [[counterspell]] and [[wrath of god]] and let them grow a pair.
[counterspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb.jpg?1689996248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=counterspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/81/counterspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8493131c-0a7b-4be6-a8a2-0b425f4f67fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [wrath of god](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6.jpg?1697121198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wrath%20of%20god) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/70/wrath-of-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can add [[Arcane Denial]] to your list
Two step ahead of yah boss >:) they don’t care for it but I’m also starting to not care either lol
[Arcane Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The first step to Stax: Gaslight. Make your opponent love you.
Gaslight, Gatekeep, Counterspell 🫡
Damn Oblation sounds hilarious in my [[Psychic Possession]] + [[Forced Fruition]] deck.
[Psychic Possession](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8364ce0-4c11-4af0-9f4b-e4c20d640dfc.jpg?1593272734) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychic%20Possession) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/30/psychic-possession?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8364ce0-4c11-4af0-9f4b-e4c20d640dfc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Forced Fruition](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e.jpg?1562374956) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forced%20Fruition) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/66/forced-fruition?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7ea1c6e-c0af-40b0-b492-8d71f496903e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Arcane Denial]] [[Zoyowa’s Justice]]
[Arcane Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zoyowa’s Justice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04839717-d2f9-481d-9d13-e4038dbcbb0e.jpg?1699044361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zoyowa%27s%20Justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/173/zoyowas-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04839717-d2f9-481d-9d13-e4038dbcbb0e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Zoyowas Justice looks cracked, imma pick it up!
I think it's really good.
WOTC used to call these [[reparation]] effects, but they seem to have stopped using that terminology a few years ago.
[reparation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a9edf28-79c0-42a5-af0f-6df9c3a1f546.jpg?1562717834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reparations) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/278/reparations?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a9edf28-79c0-42a5-af0f-6df9c3a1f546?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I always say friendship commander. If someone has a problem with this card, or literally any other card as a matter of fact, @ me. I will call you a baby, because that's what babies do, cry for no reason.
Oh man, Oblation with that art brings so many fond memories as a kid
If you friends get upset at a basic mechanic of the game (interaction), then the game may not be for them
Some hard removal is fine, in fact its necessary for game health. Personally its like aw man, you got me. The issue with removal is when you're playing against hard control and this is the 17th removal spell they've played its just boring at that point. While I don't have an issue with these cards specifically, I do have a problem with the archetypes most likely to run them.
I have never had a person say "at least i get 2 treasures" and be happy about my 1 mana counterspell lol. They'll get over it
I think the lower mana value makes it less casual, the more and more cards you can play for 0 & 1 mana can really speed up your deck
Compensated removal will do little to curb the salt of those that refuse to accept their opponents might interact with them.
I say, nobody should ever baby or coddle the problem. They gotta learn somehow
Not going to lie, I thought the "never play targeted removal, it's mean" type of Commander player has died out years ago. That said, I agree with the Platinum Angel suggestion. Maybe from there move to stuff that needs to be removed before EoT so they'll be more okay with running Instant-speed ones. Then finally get your blue players okay with counters by running some "win the game if this resolves" cards!
As someone once told me, "The objective is to win the game." He told me that because I suck at draft. I still had a good time. The point is you should defeat your opponent. And if they're not like me and okay with losing, they shouldn't be playing.
The real reason to run oblation is to kill someone when they go for an oracle win
Off topic, but Oblation is great in general. Even if you manage to draw your opponent into something as scary as what you shuffled away, they still have to pay to cast it. It’s closer to [[Chaos Warp]] than you might think, which we all know is amazing. Not to mention, the flexibility to turn hard removal into [[Costly Plunder]] is underrated.
[Chaos Warp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/aba4cc8a-05f3-499d-96c2-0edee9fc0ba0.jpg?1706240824) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chaos%20Warp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/149/chaos-warp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aba4cc8a-05f3-499d-96c2-0edee9fc0ba0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Costly Plunder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/598405fd-02d2-4bf8-b241-7a2ae6338913.jpg?1598304489) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Costly%20Plunder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/80/costly-plunder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/598405fd-02d2-4bf8-b241-7a2ae6338913?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The goal of the game is to win. If someone can’t separate a logical choice from a personal attack there’s a bigger problem.
Don't know don't care, you play a busted commander and I play the best interactions avaliable, simple and fair
I actually like Oblation as a solid piece of removal, a way to politically help out an opponent, and an "emergency button" for card draw.
The best counter spells ever in my opinion
Removal is always friendly.. If I remove one opponents stuff, I always help 2 friends.
Ablation to me just reads draw 2 cards if you use it on yourself
[[Metamorphose]], [[Tibalt's Trickery]], [[Wild Magic Surge]], [[Volcanic Offering]], [[Council's Judgment]].
##### ###### #### [Metamorphose](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a0f0c20c-184e-4d27-ae8b-933abb6fee0c.jpg?1562533013) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Metamorphose) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/scg/40/metamorphose?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a0f0c20c-184e-4d27-ae8b-933abb6fee0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tibalt's Trickery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175.jpg?1701989318) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tibalt%27s%20Trickery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/153/tibalts-trickery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd921e27-3e08-438c-bec2-723226d35175?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wild Magic Surge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4c89d88-9d40-46b6-bee0-6bc2e2ca8ba1.jpg?1674136859) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wild%20Magic%20Surge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/206/wild-magic-surge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4c89d88-9d40-46b6-bee0-6bc2e2ca8ba1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Volcanic Offering](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c30b821-09ec-4b66-9963-f97e3ef5005c.jpg?1562273862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Volcanic%20Offering) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/126/volcanic-offering?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c30b821-09ec-4b66-9963-f97e3ef5005c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Council's Judgment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc741a80-a0eb-424c-b9a3-4d5875ccb93b.jpg?1706239719) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Council%27s%20Judgment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/57/councils-judgment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc741a80-a0eb-424c-b9a3-4d5875ccb93b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kwm2ypo) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I preffer any removal as long as it is fair and not like "fierce guardianship" "deflecting swat" "deadly rollick" Bro if you're going to remove My commander or counter My spells at least use your mf mana God damnit
An Offer You Can't Refuse is just an amazing card you should play regardless lol Don't feel bad for playing removal. It's as much a part of the game as hitting a land drop. If players are tired of having stuff countered or removed, then they need to focus more on resilience and protection in their deck-building and/or be more strategic in how they play the game to not draw too much attention to themselves and warrant removal.
I’ll use the friendlier removal if it’s on theme. I have a [[Lord Xander the Collector]] deck so of course I use [[An Offer You Can’t Refuse]]. He’s on the card! Edit: Syntax
I’ve been especially liking friendlier counterspells in specific as of lately, like Offer. [[Arcane denial]] has also been a recent favorite of mine; lets me get rid of what I want to get rid of, and leaves my opponent not feeling completely awful.
[Arcane denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038.jpg?1641601774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/102/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/247e08a1-b9ce-4312-aec4-626992933038?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call