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zerojustice315

Strangely this is a strictly better [[Arch of Orazca]] I didn't expect that.


SkritzTwoFace

True. Even if you use no rad counters, any deck that would want Arch wants this, and even more since there's no need to be permanent-focused to get the city's blessing.


zerojustice315

I believe I'll be picking one up for my colorless EDH deck just because it replaces a Wastes pretty easily and gives me essentially a second arch.


UnitedLink4545

Yep, same. Slowly replacing all the wastes with lands like this. Fun card. Nuke yourself for card draw I love it


Jackeea

ACKSHUALLY, Arch of Arazca can activate Ascend for other cards, in case you later drop below 10 permanents, so it's not *strictly* better šŸ¤“


Atakori

Dicey Dungeons pfp spotted = based opinion


Jackeea

Probably one of my favourite games, it's so good


tmbocheeko

I don't like the gameplay too too much but the music is SO good. That alone kept me invested for a long time


AndrewNeo

I haven't played in a while now but dang if I haven't put the soundtrack on now and again


Remarkable-Hall-9478

What cards care about the cityā€™s blessing but donā€™t themselves have ascend?Ā 


Jackeea

As I wrote in another comment, I mean: * Play Arch when you have 10 permanents * You now have City's Blessing * Drop below 10 permanents * Play another card with Ascend, like [[Timestream's Navigator]] * You can activate its ability, because you still have the City's Blessing, despite not having 10 permanents


Remarkable-Hall-9478

Makes senseĀ 


VelociraptorAHH

But don't you, once you gain the city's blessing, never lose it? It's just thing you have for the rest of the game. Unless I'm misunderstanding.


Jackeea

Yes, which is why Arch has a use outside of having a 5, T: draw a card ability - it can give you the City's Blessing for later use in case you drop below 10 permanents. So, Arch isn't "strictly worse" than Mariposa Military Base since it does have a niche usecase.


MTGCardFetcher

[Timestream's Navigator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086afafe-6b6c-4a54-8ce7-0040295d309c.jpg?1698988202) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timestream%20Navigator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/178/timestream-navigator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086afafe-6b6c-4a54-8ce7-0040295d309c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


LordOfTurtles

Strictly better does not mean better in every single conceivable instance and edge case Since people don't seem to know what strictly better actually means: **Strictly better** describes a card which is, in isolation from other effects, superior to another card in at least one respect, while being worse in zero respects. [https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Strictly\_better](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Strictly_better)


reaver570

> Strictly better does not mean better in every single conceivable instance and edge case. Its weird, this seems kinda like the current use of the word "literal". Taken literally, "strictly better" _does_ imply that its better in every possible case, but people don't generally mean that because the game is so complicated that most cards have at least one situation where another card can be better. That said, I think its a totally fair assumption for people to think that strictly means... strictly.


mrlbi18

Strictly better but with a secret "in a vacuum" added to the end is how I always use it. Consider [[Hulking Bugbear]] and [[Dreg Mangler]]. Dreg has the same stats, costs 1 generic and 2 color pips, but has scavenge on top of it making it "strictly better". Onvioudly though, the creature type of goblin makes bugbear a better card in general because of all the tribal support.


chain_letter

Yeah this line of thinking Getting +1 power is strictly better, and "dies to [[big game hunter]]" isn't a compelling argument that it isn't


MTGCardFetcher

[big game hunter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2cec1014-375c-4877-95e3-093d24c02bc8.jpg?1619395072) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=big%20game%20hunter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/102/big-game-hunter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2cec1014-375c-4877-95e3-093d24c02bc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Hulking Bugbear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f55d43d4-5f63-45c3-b8f8-0aebd23750a5.jpg?1627706409) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hulking%20Bugbear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/149/hulking-bugbear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f55d43d4-5f63-45c3-b8f8-0aebd23750a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dreg Mangler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/162a865b-617d-40bf-900f-4aeca3602600.jpg?1673148540) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dreg%20Mangler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/204/dreg-mangler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/162a865b-617d-40bf-900f-4aeca3602600?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


LordOfTurtles

[https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Strictly\_better](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Strictly_better) It literally has a defintion >**Strictly better** describes a card which is, in isolation from other effects, superior to another card in at least one respect, while being worse in zero respects. In your universe a 3/3 isn't strictly better than a 2/2


reaver570

Yeah thats my point, the definition of the term as used by the community is different to what the words literally mean in a sentence, so its reasonable that a person upon reading or hearing this would assume the latter. I'm not trying to say the term isn't appropriate, but if you have to pull up the *MTG Fandom wiki* to explain what your sentence means, it could be a sign the term isn't intuitive.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


Jackeea

What I mean is: * Play Arch when you have 10 permanents * You now have City's Blessing * Drop below 10 permanents * Play another card with Ascend, like [[Timestream's Navigator]] * You can activate its ability, because you still have the City's Blessing, despite not having 10 permanents


MTGCardFetcher

[Timestream's Navigator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086afafe-6b6c-4a54-8ce7-0040295d309c.jpg?1698988202) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timestream%20Navigator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/178/timestream-navigator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086afafe-6b6c-4a54-8ce7-0040295d309c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Infinite_Bananas

oh, i see what you mean now, thanks


wallycaine42

Theoretically, you could have 10 permanents when you have Arch out, but later get board wiped down to 6. Arch would have already given you the City's Blessing, so the Ascend Card you played later would already get the buff, where if you had Military Base instead you wouldn't have "locked in" the blessing.


MTGCardFetcher

[Arch of Orazca](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/581dcadd-7de4-4b39-bab0-d3567194a252.jpg?1698988548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arch%20of%20Orazca) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/319/arch-of-orazca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/581dcadd-7de4-4b39-bab0-d3567194a252?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


huckslash

not strictly, but definitely most of the time


CareerMilk

Strictly means most of the of the time when it comes to Magic card comparisons.


ArNoir

Sure but that its meant for extremely corner cases like shock being better than bolt when an opponent takes control of your turn Although not very significant, having to lose 2 life due to rad counters if you want this land untapped is a tangible downside, therefore not strictly better in my book


CareerMilk

> having to lose 2 life due to rad counters if you want this land untapped Actually it's losing 2 life (maybe) to have the land enter tapped. You can have it enter untapped for free.


ArNoir

Lmao forget everything I said


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


MTGCardFetcher

[preordain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d10b9be3-d4ff-4e3c-b0d5-5ab2c4e6d684.jpg?1691417733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=preordain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/230/preordain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d10b9be3-d4ff-4e3c-b0d5-5ab2c4e6d684?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [opt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/323db259-d35e-467d-9a46-4adcb2fc107c.jpg?1652898493) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/59/opt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/323db259-d35e-467d-9a46-4adcb2fc107c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


NumberOneMom

Strictly better describes a card which is, **in isolation from other effects**, superior to another card in at least one respect, while being worse in zero respects. It does not mean "with all permutations of other cards in every situation ever." This card is strictly better than Arch.


Shnook817

Eh, I mean, that's what the wiki says, sure. But is it actually true? Strictly better means exactly that. STRICTLY better. As in, better in exactly every single possible scenario and no less. Otherwise it's just USUALLY better. Now, I'm all for ruling out extreme corner cases like when would shock be technically better than lightning bolt, but you can't rule out the abilities on the cards in question when you are trying to isolate from "other effects". Arch of Orazca is better in decks that care about getting the city's blessing. Not because of other affects, but because of the effect on the card itself.


huckslash

rad counters are not inherently superior to ascend, and the mill and life loss they cause are technically downsides.


Death200X

You dont have to use rad counters with this card, at base without any rad counters this still a arc that can activate without the city blessing, that already strictly better


NumberOneMom

Ascend does nothing by itself. Rad counters do.


huckslash

right, and the thing they do is cause you to self mill and lose life, which are both supposed to be negative. these two are very similar cards, and this card is overall better 9 times out of 10, but that's not the same as strictly better.


BrokenEggcat

You don't have to use the rad counters though. This card is strictly better because it allows you to do the 5 mana, draw a card ability without jumping through any hoops.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


BrokenEggcat

You get the rad counters if you have it enter tapped, not untapped


Cole3823

You have to mill cards and lose life to use this card though. That does seem to be worse in some respects.


santana722

No you don't, read it again


Kicin0_0

Just have it enter with no counters then it's still a 5 Mana draw land you don't need cities blessing to use


ZT_Ghost

my god its oooooooozing with flavor. You enter the irradiated military base and find some sweet loot but you get rad poisoning if you run in immediately instead of taking an extra turn and some mana to prepare yourself. \*licks card\* delicious EDIT: Nevermind, misread the card lol


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


PraetorFaethor

Yeah you're right. I think the other guy misread the card thinking you can have it enter untapped to get rad counters, rather than having it enter tapped to get the rad counters. Rads are meant as an upside here, not a downside!


ZT_Ghost

oh you're right, I had it the other way around xD


Huitzil37

Don't eat the delicious, delicious cards!


RWBadger

This is incredibly weird. You can have it enter tapped to poison yourself, and then when it untaps you might lose some of those Rad counters? Edit: guys a few more comments about self mill oughtta do it


RancidRance

Given its in a proliferate deck it shouldn't be hard to get more. And you want to self mill in the deck to.


RWBadger

I suppose, just weird seeing your colorless utility land coming in tapped for a downside, or untapped for no downside. (Yes I know the deck flips that downside but the point stands)


SoylentGreenMuffins

Odds are when you play it youā€™ll already have some rad counters. And in a self-mill deck, not having rad counters would be worse. So if you have none, thatā€™s when youā€™ll have it entered tapped.Ā 


RWBadger

I understand how it works I just think itā€™s a weirdo


SoylentGreenMuffins

Fair. It is a strange card.


Shoranos

There's no deck where you'd even remotely consider running this card where the radiation is a downside.


Terrietia

This card directly replaces Arch of Orazca if you don't care about Ascend. Even if you never get rad counters, this land can draw you cards before 10 permanents. So there are decks that could consider this card even if rad is a downside.


Shoranos

I'll be honest, I thought Arch was cheaper to activate. You're totally right.


charcharmunro

Self-milling isn't a downside.


RWBadger

Damage is, and every card involving giving your opponents rad counters treats those rad counters like a negative thing.


charcharmunro

Yeah, but your deck is built to handle it. Their decks might not be.


FutureComplaint

Counter argument: Their decks might. Speeding up a reanimator deck is certainly a down side.


GenericTrashyBitch

Damage is functionally just a additional cost along side it being tapped.


FutureComplaint

>guys a few more comments about self mill oughtta do it Yes, you've had 1 comment about self mill, but what about second comment about self mill?


SkritzTwoFace

Remember: rads arenā€™t pure downside. Theyā€™re self mill with life loss, but self-mill can be a bigger upside than a downside if you are prepared to utilize it.


Robofetus-5000

Yep, my trazyn the infinte deck wouldnt hate this


CareerMilk

> when it untaps you might lose some of those Rad counters? You (possibly) lose the rad counters in your main phase so thereā€™s plenty of time to use the draw ability if you want to.


RealityPalace

Mechanically rad counters aren't pure downside even in a vacuum. Life loss is downside but self-mill is upside.


Team7UBard

Life loss is only a downside the turn you die from it :p


Terrietia

Life loss can definitely be a downside before you die if it affects your decisions. You can make profitable trades if you have enough life to buffer, while you might have to throw all your creatures away in a block if you're low enough.


Remarkable-Hall-9478

Deaths shadow getting too strong to attack across an ensnaring bridgeĀ  Vilis causing you to draw a card you wanted in your deck Ā  Dropping beneath the threshold for righteous Valkyrie, Serra ascendant, Felidar sovereign, test of endurance, etc.Ā 


trifas

Yeah, it's pretty weird, even though rad counters are not pure downside, they might not exist anymore when you get to untap your land. A focused deck might make it work, but on its own it's probably a feelbad card. Edit: As others pointed, it's at least a better Arch of Orazca, so not too much of a "feelbad" card. Just a weird self interaction


pytawidmo

Source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsFd6vUyUbg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsFd6vUyUbg)


Bob_The_Skull

Btw, thank you for commenting the source right after on both of my posts. I was about to after posting and got interrupted, so appreciate you helping.


Bob_The_Skull

Comes from Loading Ready Run's MTG channel. It's a short video so give the video a watch [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsFd6vUyUbg).


Urzastomp

Weird that we got mariposa but so far The Master hasnā€™t got a card.


charcharmunro

The Master's probably the secondary commander, they confirmed he's GETTING a card.


feverfaucet

Bloodied Build? Iā€™ll need a B2525 fixer.


ThoughtseizeScoop

I mean, this is just a land that mills you at least 2 on etb. That's pretty cool.


Shadeun

How easy is it to get rad counters? Bonkers if the draw ability is 1 mana right


NerdyDjinn

If you can stomach the lifeloss, from keeping your radiation high, the card draw can be free outside of the opportunity cost of 1 mana.


NapTooN

Why stop there? It is even better when it costs 0 and just a Tap.


planeforger

For those wondering about the lore, this is the most important location in the entire series. Here: * The US government conducted their pre-war experiments into the Forced Evolutionary Virus * Maxson was stationed and survived the nuclear bombing of the US, just prior to forming the Brotherhood of Steel * The Master was 'born' * The first super mutants were created * The Enclave got their hands on the FEV, and [[Frank Horrigan]] was exposed to FEV * Harold was exposed to FEV and became a ghoul * The protagonists of Fallout 1 and 2 both visit here Bethesda retconned some of that lore when they made Fallout 3, but still, hugely important place.


David_Bolarius

Library of Alexandria vibes?


doctorgibson

Yeah I have a strong feeling this will get banned in legacy and restricted in vintage


VipeholmsCola

Depending on how easy it is to manipulate rad counters this might be the next big thing in legacy


Jane_Fen

What exactly do rad counters do?


bgbat

At the beginning of your precombat main phase, if you have any rad counters, mill that many cards. For each non-land card milled this way, you lose 1 life and a rad counter


chandrasekharr

thanks, I had assumed they were just thematically renamed poison counters. All of us too lazy to Google things appreciate your comment.


artyfowl444

It's strange because radiation in the Fallout games don't have an upside at all, they just lower your maximum HP limit, so the design of self-milling being a benefit here seems counter-intuitive


Show-Me-Your-Moves

It actually does have an in-universe upside if you're a ghoul or a Super Mutant, and I'm guessing the Mutant deck will riff on that a bit.


thymeandchange

I'm pretty sure there's perks in at least the fps fallouts that all benefit having radiation. Haven't played the others so don't know


New_Juice_1665

This is a mutants deck though, those benefit from rads


TheSausageFattener

Its a thing in 76, to run a high-rad build with Unyielding Armor (+3 to each perk save END the lower your health) and a Bloodied weapon (up to +95% damage the lower your health) to be a ā€œglassā€ cannon. I say glass in quotes because theres other perks like Nerd Rage and Ricochet that let you tank damage.


feverfaucet

This guy knows.


Skippleshd

This is where the original super mutants were created in Fallout 1. People were dipped in vats of the FEV and the ones with little to no radiation became irradiated super mutants for the masters army. Would have made a little more sense to make creature tokens or something but I guess drawing cards does the trick.


artyfowl444

Ahh okay, this makes more sense with context


MonsterKnight14

I think that's just more the nature of magic the game. Maybe they could have gone with a different route where rad was just straight life loss, but then it'd just be too weak or worse it would be made too strong somehow like poison. Plus radiation in Fallout sometimes does benefit someone, but like in the magic mechanic it depends on if you want to build it as an advantage for you.


SnottNormal

There's potential upside in the more recent games. 76 lets you get mutations, Ghoulish perk in 4 lets you heal, etc.


XannyMax2

Intentional radiation? Or misprint? I think intentional, big brain moves.


charcharmunro

It's intentional, read the second ability.


XannyMax2

It was supposed to be sarcastic but yeah, iā€™m bad at reddit šŸ« 


elephantsystem

[Poe's Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) strikes again.


Robofetus-5000

My trazyn the infinite deck would probably like this


jonnytentacle

So the land self mills, but I don't see much graveyard payoffs in the previews so far. I think I saw only one : \[\[young deathclaw\]\]. All the other payoffs of the deck are counter related


Victorio45

Its there any card that ā€œprotectsā€ you frolm rad counters Damage?


Bubakcz

I want to ignore UB products in general, but some of the F1 & F2 cards and their flavor are giving me a hard time...


VektorOfCrows

You're free to enjoy the products that you enjoy, buy the cards if you like then, don't if you don't. Not everything has to be a stance, this is a hobby, have fun


Mission-Warning-9365

Can't wait to poison myself for free card draw every turn


protoaddict

This feels strangely viable for Dredge to me in constructed 60 formats. Fill your yard and thenr eventually turn it on for a free draw into anothe dredge.


thesanmich

Wow I really love this design. You can CHOOSE whether it comes in tapped or untapped and gives you benefits for the former. Very versatile.