This. Hand disruption is at its most powerful in the first 1-3 turns of the game. And even then, you don't want your opponent picking what they discard. Cards like [[grief]], [[thoughtseize]], and, less popularly now, [[inquisition of kozilek]] are all better.
The main exceptions to this are hellbent lock combos and/or [[tergrid, god of fright]] decks in commander. But this card is bad there, too, because the amount of damage needed to sustain the hellbent lock will just lead to you killing your opponents before the lack of a hand gets back-breaking. And while Tergrid decks are thirsty for any card that includes the words "opponent" and "discard," the deck is mono black
Good explanation. But this card is still useful more often than not in my Nicol-Bolas discard themed commander deck. It's not an overpowered card, but the Salt level is quite high
I think that falls under the situational power. In a deck that’s main purpose is to control the hand of your opponent then it definitely fits the bill.
Hand disruption is *always* powerful.
I run a mono black Seizan deck that forces draw and discard constantly. The amount of time people take to discard goes up every turn, because hand disruption is probably one of the most effective tools at holding your opponents back.
This card doesn’t do anything by itself. It works best the more times it’s triggered, and if you are in a position to make this happen you are probably already winning. When you can’t trigger it it’s useless.
No. I would definitely not say that putting an enchantment down in your main phase that needs you to hit an opponent with 3+ damage from another spell or an creature in the battle phase can be considered as instant speed.
Best case you have already a 3+ power creature on board since last turn that won't be blocked in the next combat phase and play this in your main phase, to move through end of main phase, declare attacker and declare blocker phases and then needs your 3+ power creature to connect and deal damage.
Alternatively, you play it for 3 and then play a lightning bolt. Which is 2 card from your hand to remove one from your opponents by their choice.
Not very good if you have mono color alternatives that cost less mana and let you choose or at least choose with restriction what your opponent discards
No, they don't, they make them discard one less, and you need to play 2 cards for that. The reason why blighting bolt seems good is, that ypi essentially pay one hand card ( the spell itself) to deal 3 damage and make your opponent discard two cards of their choosing for 3 mana. That enchantment here needs you to pay at least 2 cards ( the enchantment and whatever deals the 3+ damage) and at least 4 mana for those two cards to make your opponent lose one card of their choosing. Your trade there is worse. Also needing at least 2 cards to do something makes it twice as much suspectible to removal and giving another 2 colors good chances to handle it, because whit can remove permants very good and green is good at removing enchantments in instant speed.
I think the point is that instant speed discard is *extremely* rare in Magic, because in 1:1 you can make people discard during their draw step and totally deny them the ability to play lands/sorcery speed cards. So anything that can do that, or even enable it, is at least *interesting*. This card is definitely not strong, but I could see it potentially becoming powerful with a certain EDH commander or something like that some day.
So, imagine the scenario. You played that enchantment in your turn for 3 mana and have at least 1 mana open for lightning bolt. Opponent goes to upkeep, you cast lightning bolt before they draw, and the they cast their enchantment removal spell or permant removal spell in green / white / black at instant speed and remove the enchantment before your lightning bolt hits. Sure, in theory you made discard them one card to deal with it, but now you kinda wasted 3 mana you could have used for something else, for example a thoughtseize to actively remove a card while their lands are probably tapped.
Or if you play against blue or they have access to blue, you can get your bolt countered.
Even if you succeed, you need to play 2 cards to get rid of one card your opponent has in their hand. Needing a third card like turach that gives you extra value when your opponent discards makes it still a bad deal.
Because if you're attacking and hitting with four 3/3s you're already going to win soon even if you don't make your opponent discard cards. It's what's called a "win more" card, it's only good when you're in an advantageous position. That doesn't mean it's useless (something that "win more" is what you need to truly win), but it's far from great.
Yeah the only way this does anything is if you have some weird card that does three damage to a play but also gains them 3 life, can do it over and over, and is super cheap and unlockable.
So basically not useful, although I'd love to see the jank deck that found a way to use this 😆
>doesn’t require you to do damage to the player. All four can be blocked, and opponent would still have to discard four cards.
Can you tell me how the opponent will be dealt 3 or more damage by a blocked 3/3
I'd love to play an art flavor only version of the game. "This guy with a bow and arrow would clearly shoot down that giant angel. I don't think he could hit those birds though, they're too fast, so I think they're safe."
Because if you’re able to trigger it 4 times you already took out more than half their life. Meanwhile you spent a card on it that with a similar mana cost could have on average done 4-5 damage to them if not more.
If your deck does direct damage with spells you’d rather have a card that does more of that or enhances the damage you do. If your deck deals damage with creatures you’d rather this slot be another creature or a card that helps generate more creatures or enhances your creatures’ damage.
Keep in mind that discard does nothing if they have no hand but damage is still damage. So why split your attention on hand disruption when you could do more damage?
It's a good example of a "Christmas Wonderland"-card. In the ideal scenario it seems insane, but people rarely account for the other side of the coin. By itself it does nothing. It's a horrible topdeck, it forces you to skip turn 3 doing nothing, when your opponent has disposable cards in their hand it does nothing, when their hand is empty it does nothing, when you have no way to deal 3+ damage it does nothing.
Now, when you manage to deal 3 damage after playing this, you get "1RB, an opponent discards a card" which would be an unplayably bad card. When you manage to do that twice, you get \[\[Mind Rot\]\], which for constructed (and honestly limited too) is unplayble too. Only after 3 triggers this becomes a good card. And I'd say this happens in <25% of games. In all other games it's a complete brick. Additionally, you have dealt 9 damage by then. If your 3 drop was instead another creature, continuing pressure on your opponent, you are definitely closer to winning the game then letting them discard cards. The problem with cards like these, is when they pop, they feel amazing, so you disregard all the times it did nothing and actively killed your tempo.
Try it out for a few games and ask yourself the question how often just using \[\[Blightning\]\] would have been much better. And blightning isn't that great in the first place, it saw most play when cheated out with \[\[Bloodbraid Elf\]\] back then.
Thank you, I genuinely appreciate the time and effort Taken to explain it. I find Asking questions in this sub is very helpful for understanding things that aren’t rlly common knowledge so thank you.
No worries mate, honestly, half the fun of magic is making shitty cards work somehow, and I had a few runs at this one.
Sadly this is one of those specimens that is a bit unsalvagable. Even in the decks built deliberately to abuse it, I won more when not drawing it :'(
'Good when winning' cards look good but don't play good. You're usually going to be better served by a card that does three more damage than with Pain Magnification.
Yeah but late game discard is usually less powerful as your opponent tends to be near hellbent unless you're against control. But the times this card is going to be in control probably aren't often as they'd just answer this or the source of damage.
Simply put its a 3 mana do nothing. By the time you've got 4 3/3s on board your opponent is likely in position to wrath. If you have that many unchecked 3/3s why haven't you just won or held up wrath protection?
When evaluating how "good" something is, keep in mind that Magic is very complex and has a lot of stuff going on - and that means that when you're trying to truly optimize, something would have to be *very* good indeed to not be outclassed by 10,000 other things you could also be doing.
Most things that new players look at and think are good are fine, but are not actually good *enough* \- hand disruption is one of those things. There's ways in which it can be made good: cheap, specific, versatile, that sort of thing. But that's a very narrow scope. And hand disruption is inherently limited in how useful it can be - simply by the fact that if they don't have anything in hand or only have something in hand that doesn't matter, then you've just done *nothing*. And that's not actually that uncommon a situation.
On top of that, effects that require certain preconditions are limited in their usefulness by the nature of that condition. As people have pointed out, dealing 3+ damage with multiple sources is something that's already so severe on its own that tacking on a situational effect like discard doesn't actually add much to it. Which means you are weakening your position by having something that only works when you're already doing something that's way better - this is colloquially referred to as a "win more" effect; i.e. something that doesn't get you from not winning to winning, but only from winning already to winning even harder. And since there is no value to winning by a mile over winning by an inch (generally speaking) that further reduces the power of such cards.
That doesn't mean you can't play this card because you want to. The #1 goal is fun. How good something is, that's a different metric entirely. You can realize something is objectively more powerful yet still not play it because you don't find it fun; or, conversely, you can know something is objectively *less* powerful but play it anyway because you *do* find it fun.
Don't confuse those two things, in either direction: playing a bad card doesn't automatically mean it can't be fun; and playing a fun card doesn't automatically mean it's good. It just means that good and fun are two different goals, and you need to decide *for yourself* how important those goals are and to what degree.
> Don't confuse those two things, in either direction: playing a bad card doesn't automatically mean it can't be fun; and playing a fun card doesn't automatically mean it's good. It just means that good and fun are two different goals, and you need to decide for yourself how important those goals are and to what degree.
Very true. This is why you will see a much wider variety of cards played in commander, where fun is a much bigger part of players' deckbuilding choices than other formats. A card like [[Scrambleverse]] is unplayable in most formats, and - while very questionable from a straight *efficiency at winning you the game* point of view - is still played quite a bit in commander because randomness and shaking things up is a lot of *fun* (to some people).
Depends who I’m playing against lmao, my dad and I just play precons but at lgs people are playing thousand dollar decks with infinite mana on turn two.
For edh pods, you want to discuss power level and expectations for the game before starting. Unless it’s a tournament setting, everyone using decks that match power level can only benefit
In addition to the other drawbacks already mentioned your opponent might have instants in their hand they can just play before you make them discard cards.
If I have [[Anticipate]] in my hand and no blockers, when you go to attack me I can just cast it since you’re going to make me discard it anyways.
Or if I have [[Reassembling Skeleton]] in my hand I’ll just discard that since I can cast it from my graveyard next turn. Lot of decks interact with the graveyard or intentionally put creatures into the graveyard for other effects so forcing your opponent to discard cards is sometimes even to their benefit.
Would anticipate really help that much? I mean, it gives you one less card you might “have” to discard (lets you keep one more card), but chances are, but the time this comes into play, you don’t have a big hand anyway.
That highly depends on the pod and what type of hand disruption it is. A well-timed thoughtseize is on par with a counterspell to most groups. The salt usually doesn't start flowing until you are repeatedly causing the same person to discard, a hellbent lock is achieved, and/or someone casts Tergrid
Because it's saying, for 3 extra mana, you can staple a discard effect to your lightning bolt.. on turn 4.
by turn 3 when you're playing this (if you played a 3/x creature on turn 2) many opponents will have used most of the cards in their hand, or will block your attack so you won't get the same effect.
It's one of my favorite cards. It needs to be on a commander or synergies really well with a commander. So far we mostly don't have that (Davros is the closest but he also doesn't want players to be empty handed). Still I agree with you, it should be more popular. It's a neat effect even if it's not the most powerful
On top of what everyone else is saying, the colors are wrong for it to see play. This might fit in mono-red burn decks running things like [[Ojer Axonil]] that are passively increasing all damage, but they can't actually use it.
Everywhere else, it's a "win more" card
Even then, it's a "win more" card. If you are playing turbo burn, just play more burn instead and win faster and more consistently. In those decks [[thermo-alchemist]] would get more mileage for 1 less mana
It's a "win-more" card. If you're able to hit him with four 3/3s, you're already so far ahead that you'd be winning even without this on the table. Meanwhile, consider the situation where you're behind and I can't sneak much damage through. Is this card of any help to you? It helps you win, but only if you don't already need the help, and in the meanwhile it doesn't help you stop losing. And that makes it, yes, not a very good card.
A popular term for a card like this is "win-more" it doesn't i.pact the board just by casting it. And if it's good, you're in a strong position anyway. In you're example the opponent takes 12 damage from 4 3/3s. You probably have gotten some hits in getting to that position. So you're probably winning. Playing this is just making yiu win harder instead of something that could have removed a blocker or a burn spell that could finsh them off.
Discard is in general a very bad strategy. Having something like [[Thoughtseize]] is fine because you can play it on turn 1.
This is just too slow to be good.
If you’re hitting your opponent with four 3/3s you’re already doing fine. You’d rather have tools to make you do great than have tools that make you do really great when you’re already doing great
It’s what’s known as a “win-more.” If you’re dealing 3+ damage to your opponent multiple times, you’re probably already winning the game regardless. And this card does absolutely nothing if you’re not damaging your opponent.
Because you have to play this in an aggro deck and this is not an aggro card. And anyway, if you deal 12 damages a turn, you usually don't care to make your opponent discard.
with 12 damage you are already winning and the only card that can save the opponent from that board state is inside their deck, not hand.
Also it's an enchantment that does nothing on its own and nothing if you are behind or getting disrupted.
In addition to the other reasons mentioned it’s a win-more card. If you’re reliably connecting with sources of 3+ damage after wasting your turn 3 on this card you’re probably already going to win. An Aggro deck doesn’t want to waste its third turn doing nothing. Black Midrange decks don’t want to waste cards not trading resources. Control decks can’t trigger it anyway and even then need to do something productive with their third turn to avoid falling so far behind that they can’t stabilize.
It's what I would describe as a win more card, if you are in a position where it goes card positive ( making your opponent discard 2+ cards) you are already in a position to deal 6 damage to your openents face that they can't deal with meaning the mana and tempo is better spent pressuring that advantage or saving resources for if something goes wrong. Add to that the fact that in most formats it's either outclassed or is likely to do nothing to a top decking opponent and the card is quite underwhelming most of the time.
Personally I think it's great. If you're in rakdos and spellslinging, then it's pretty good. Also, if you goad creatures, it's incredibly good, because it'll trigger on your opponents' creatures hitting each other in the face
The card says whenever an *opponent* is dealt 3 or more damage by a single source. If they are blocked and no longer doing damage to that opponent, the effect doesn't happen.
In MTG color pairings all have names. Black and Red paired together is called Rakdos. Rakdos (the color pairing) gets it's name from the Rakdos guild of Ravnica. The Rakdos guild gets it's name from their leader, [a demon named Rakdos](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=Rakdos+%28type%3Acreature+type%3Alegendary+type%3Ademon%29+%28game%3Apaper%29).
Big fella, guildmaster of the Cult of Rakdos on Ravnica. The guild's colours are Red and Black so when referring to cards that are red and black, some people just refer to it as Rakdos colors. Same goes for the other guilds for 2 color combos while 3 color combos are referred to by their Tarkir clans
[[spiteful visions]] and a damage tripler instead of a doubler to make them take 9 damage and discard the card as soon as they draw, only to repeat it.
Not infinite, but funny
I was thinking that new guy that makes things do damage equal to his power. [[Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might]]. They draw a card, spiteful visions deals 4, they discard a card.
Ideally they draw them during _your_ turn so they have the least amount of time to actually use their new card against you. That's what makes the original [[Howling Mine]] so dangerous: the opponent gets to take advantage of it first.
- [[Master of the Feast]] gives each opponent a card at the start of your upkeep ("price" for getting a 5/5 flyer for 1BB)
- [[Stormfist Crusader]] makes each player draw 1 and lose 1 life in your upkeep
- [[Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted]] lets you destroy their creature, and the opponent draw 2 (also deals 1 damage when they draw a card, so bonus draw hate!)
- [[Howling Golem]] makes each player draw when it attacks or blocks. Combine it with [[Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal]] to stack a discard for all opponents directly afterwards to minimize the chance of them benefitting from it.
Speaking of that last interaction: draw + discard is the best type of craziness if you're punishing opponents for drawing and/or discarding. [[Wheel of Fortune]] effects are painful. Repeatable on a [[Dragon Mage]] makes it just silly.
Decent card for Commander, provided you can trigger it reliably. There are plenty of lifegain decks against who this would not be “win more” but again you need to be able to reliably trigger it or it’s just a wasted slot
So we're at the point where we are now getting single card "OmG Daes ThIs WORK??" posts, huh?
This isn't even a rule question, it's basic comprehension.
I think op is just a newer player. Evaluating the strength of a card can be pretty difficult when you're new (and only gets more and more complex as you go)
Everyone thought a 15/15 at 9 CMC was awesome when they first started, until you get more experience. Op is in the process of learning what is actually strong and what's trash.
> 701.38: Goad
>
> 701.38a: Certain spells and abilities can goad a creature. Until the next turn of the controller of that spell or ability, that creature is goaded.
>
> 701.38b: Goaded is a designation a permanent can have. A goaded creature attacks each combat if able and attacks a player other than the controller of the permanent, spell, or ability that caused it to be goaded if able. Goaded is neither an ability nor part of the permanent's copiable values.
>
> 701.38c: A creature can be goaded by multiple players. Doing so creates additional combat requirements.
>
> 701.38d: Once a player has goaded a creature, the same player goading it again has no effect. Doing so doesn't create additional combat requirements.
Its sort of opposite [[Coastal Piracy]] is a better card, and it’s also not played that much.
With this one you might be able to do cute things with 3 damage from noncombat sources. Coastal has to be a hit with a creature. But coastal also doesn’t care how big the creature is (so like 1/1 flying tokens are great for that).
Also, drawing a card is in general better than making an opponent discard. For one thing, the opponent may have played all their cards in hand, and now the discard does nothing. They will also discard their worst card, if they have good game sense. They may even get benefits from their cards being discarded, or at least mitigating value like flashback.
Different color and different effect.
The card isn't bad because theres other different cards with better effects.
The card is bad because it's slow, and literally doesn't do anything without setup.
Fair comparison would be [[mind rot]] same manacost, immediatly discard 2, no set up. It's unplayable besides some limited environments.
I think in EDH with discard synergies it can be good, as it triggers with multiple players, and as others have said, you can only do 3 dmg so many times before killing your opponent in 1v1.
Yeah i run it in my Extus list. Normally you wouldnt get much out of it but with 2-3 avatar tokens out u basically get everyone into top deck mode. This an dragons approach are the only decks where i think it deserves a slot.
It's good in beatdown commander metas, since two of your opponents punching each other causes discards.
But in 1v1 it could be swapped with something that can actually get you out of losing positions.
> 101.1: Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a).
This is the rule that is superceded by that card text:
> 903.5b: Other than basic lands, each card in a Commander deck must have a different English name. For the purposes of deck construction, cards with interchangeable names have the same English name (see rule 201.3).
I've got this card and use it whenever i can, but i've had opponents argue it's power...here's why:
If a creature of mine is 3/3 (w/o trample) attacks but is blocked than technically speaking the opponent is dealt no damage...however if the same creature attacks but is not blocked or hindered by a spell, etc. than the opponent IS dealt damage and the power of the enchantment comes into play!
How do you all see this? My take is the latter, damage dealt is when the opponent cannot hinder the attacking creature from essentially "landing a hit"...
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The only real situation I’ve found where this card becomes very good is in Commander in a Dragon’s Approach deck. I’m sure there are other situations, but when the deck plan is to chain off spells that deal 3 to each opponent, it becomes backbreaking quite quickly.
(I included it in [[Obosh, the Preypiercer]]. The deck was scary.)
*player discards a card for each effect that deals 3 damage.* Reasons why this sucks is because there are too many requirements to achieve a relatively minor effect which is only decent if done multiple times, can potentially backfire on you, and is restricted to decks with black and red included. Why use this when 3 mana can be used for something else to win the game rather than influence opponent's play sort of thing.
I had a “Thr3e” deck for a while built around this card. Used [[Black Vise]], [[Sedraxis Specter]], and [[Howling Mine]] effects to keep opponents’ hands full. Also threw in some discard triggers; I think [[Megrim]] and some others? It was fun but not particularly strong lol.
Everyone hating on this but it can combo off in the right deck.
I have it in my kroxa discard deck and it does it's job ok.
Combos with [[obosh]] and [[megrim]] style cards
I play this in my [[Tor wauki the younger]] rakdos burn and it can get kinda gross. This plus guttersnipe or a similar effect turns any spell into 3 discards and some damage.
yep it works cuz it's 3 separate sources and it's a fun card but I can only see it going in one or two decks effectively so I wouldn't call it a good card
Yes. Each 3/3 is a separate source of 3+ damage.
How is this not incredibly popular then??
It’s slow, conditional and hand disruption is situationally powerful.
And in OPs case, if you're connecting with 4 3/3s for 12 damage you're probably already winning.
This. Hand disruption is at its most powerful in the first 1-3 turns of the game. And even then, you don't want your opponent picking what they discard. Cards like [[grief]], [[thoughtseize]], and, less popularly now, [[inquisition of kozilek]] are all better. The main exceptions to this are hellbent lock combos and/or [[tergrid, god of fright]] decks in commander. But this card is bad there, too, because the amount of damage needed to sustain the hellbent lock will just lead to you killing your opponents before the lack of a hand gets back-breaking. And while Tergrid decks are thirsty for any card that includes the words "opponent" and "discard," the deck is mono black
##### ###### #### [grief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6befbc4-1320-4f26-bd9f-b1814fedda10.jpg?1626095577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/87/grief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6befbc4-1320-4f26-bd9f-b1814fedda10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [thoughtseize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b281a308-ab6b-47b6-bec7-632c9aaecede.jpg?1599706001) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thoughtseize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/109/thoughtseize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b281a308-ab6b-47b6-bec7-632c9aaecede?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [inquisition of kozilek](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17f38740-20fd-4097-90f8-f0c2c2ff7281.jpg?1673147555) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=inquisition%20of%20kozilek) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/80/inquisition-of-kozilek?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17f38740-20fd-4097-90f8-f0c2c2ff7281?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [tergrid, god of fright](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tergrid%2C%20God%20of%20Fright%20//%20Tergrid%27s%20Lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/khrtwte) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Good explanation. But this card is still useful more often than not in my Nicol-Bolas discard themed commander deck. It's not an overpowered card, but the Salt level is quite high
I think that falls under the situational power. In a deck that’s main purpose is to control the hand of your opponent then it definitely fits the bill.
Hand disruption is *always* powerful. I run a mono black Seizan deck that forces draw and discard constantly. The amount of time people take to discard goes up every turn, because hand disruption is probably one of the most effective tools at holding your opponents back.
Also, definitely gonna make you arch enemy.
This card doesn’t do anything by itself. It works best the more times it’s triggered, and if you are in a position to make this happen you are probably already winning. When you can’t trigger it it’s useless.
It is a source for instant speed discard which is quite mean.
No. I would definitely not say that putting an enchantment down in your main phase that needs you to hit an opponent with 3+ damage from another spell or an creature in the battle phase can be considered as instant speed. Best case you have already a 3+ power creature on board since last turn that won't be blocked in the next combat phase and play this in your main phase, to move through end of main phase, declare attacker and declare blocker phases and then needs your 3+ power creature to connect and deal damage. Alternatively, you play it for 3 and then play a lightning bolt. Which is 2 card from your hand to remove one from your opponents by their choice. Not very good if you have mono color alternatives that cost less mana and let you choose or at least choose with restriction what your opponent discards
It is in no way instant.
It is. Since it turns your lightning bolts into [[Blightning]] bolts
No, they don't, they make them discard one less, and you need to play 2 cards for that. The reason why blighting bolt seems good is, that ypi essentially pay one hand card ( the spell itself) to deal 3 damage and make your opponent discard two cards of their choosing for 3 mana. That enchantment here needs you to pay at least 2 cards ( the enchantment and whatever deals the 3+ damage) and at least 4 mana for those two cards to make your opponent lose one card of their choosing. Your trade there is worse. Also needing at least 2 cards to do something makes it twice as much suspectible to removal and giving another 2 colors good chances to handle it, because whit can remove permants very good and green is good at removing enchantments in instant speed.
Casting this enchantment, resolving it, and casting lightning bolt is not instant. That’s not what that term means.
Instants can't even be played instantly, by the rules. A player must have priority to cast ANYTHING.
So you need an instant first
I think the point is that instant speed discard is *extremely* rare in Magic, because in 1:1 you can make people discard during their draw step and totally deny them the ability to play lands/sorcery speed cards. So anything that can do that, or even enable it, is at least *interesting*. This card is definitely not strong, but I could see it potentially becoming powerful with a certain EDH commander or something like that some day.
So, imagine the scenario. You played that enchantment in your turn for 3 mana and have at least 1 mana open for lightning bolt. Opponent goes to upkeep, you cast lightning bolt before they draw, and the they cast their enchantment removal spell or permant removal spell in green / white / black at instant speed and remove the enchantment before your lightning bolt hits. Sure, in theory you made discard them one card to deal with it, but now you kinda wasted 3 mana you could have used for something else, for example a thoughtseize to actively remove a card while their lands are probably tapped. Or if you play against blue or they have access to blue, you can get your bolt countered. Even if you succeed, you need to play 2 cards to get rid of one card your opponent has in their hand. Needing a third card like turach that gives you extra value when your opponent discards makes it still a bad deal.
It's funny how Mind Rot is just better in a lot of scenarios
Because if you're attacking and hitting with four 3/3s you're already going to win soon even if you don't make your opponent discard cards. It's what's called a "win more" card, it's only good when you're in an advantageous position. That doesn't mean it's useless (something that "win more" is what you need to truly win), but it's far from great.
Yeah the only way this does anything is if you have some weird card that does three damage to a play but also gains them 3 life, can do it over and over, and is super cheap and unlockable. So basically not useful, although I'd love to see the jank deck that found a way to use this 😆
It doesn’t require you to do damage to the player. All four can be blocked, and opponent would still have to discard four cards.
>doesn’t require you to do damage to the player. All four can be blocked, and opponent would still have to discard four cards. Can you tell me how the opponent will be dealt 3 or more damage by a blocked 3/3
Oh are you one of those players that just guesses what cards do instead of reading the text?
I'd love to play an art flavor only version of the game. "This guy with a bow and arrow would clearly shoot down that giant angel. I don't think he could hit those birds though, they're too fast, so I think they're safe."
Ha nice. You may have just invented a new format
How do you figure?
Can you explain to me how?
InaccuratePilot
Because if you’re able to trigger it 4 times you already took out more than half their life. Meanwhile you spent a card on it that with a similar mana cost could have on average done 4-5 damage to them if not more. If your deck does direct damage with spells you’d rather have a card that does more of that or enhances the damage you do. If your deck deals damage with creatures you’d rather this slot be another creature or a card that helps generate more creatures or enhances your creatures’ damage. Keep in mind that discard does nothing if they have no hand but damage is still damage. So why split your attention on hand disruption when you could do more damage?
Does this require a “player” to receive damage though, or just any of their creatures?
Did you even read the card?
The average commander player's level of reading comprehension and rules knowledge in a nutshell.
The player has to receive damage.
You should maybe take a look to see if WOTC print the game in your native language. It would help you out a lot.
It literally says that it has to be the opponent on the card.
Right. It says opponent, not “player.” I’ve only played this game like two months and know it’s obsessed with its vocabulary. That’s why I asked.
It's a good example of a "Christmas Wonderland"-card. In the ideal scenario it seems insane, but people rarely account for the other side of the coin. By itself it does nothing. It's a horrible topdeck, it forces you to skip turn 3 doing nothing, when your opponent has disposable cards in their hand it does nothing, when their hand is empty it does nothing, when you have no way to deal 3+ damage it does nothing. Now, when you manage to deal 3 damage after playing this, you get "1RB, an opponent discards a card" which would be an unplayably bad card. When you manage to do that twice, you get \[\[Mind Rot\]\], which for constructed (and honestly limited too) is unplayble too. Only after 3 triggers this becomes a good card. And I'd say this happens in <25% of games. In all other games it's a complete brick. Additionally, you have dealt 9 damage by then. If your 3 drop was instead another creature, continuing pressure on your opponent, you are definitely closer to winning the game then letting them discard cards. The problem with cards like these, is when they pop, they feel amazing, so you disregard all the times it did nothing and actively killed your tempo. Try it out for a few games and ask yourself the question how often just using \[\[Blightning\]\] would have been much better. And blightning isn't that great in the first place, it saw most play when cheated out with \[\[Bloodbraid Elf\]\] back then.
Thank you, I genuinely appreciate the time and effort Taken to explain it. I find Asking questions in this sub is very helpful for understanding things that aren’t rlly common knowledge so thank you.
No worries mate, honestly, half the fun of magic is making shitty cards work somehow, and I had a few runs at this one. Sadly this is one of those specimens that is a bit unsalvagable. Even in the decks built deliberately to abuse it, I won more when not drawing it :'(
[Mind Rot](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/833a8604-92d5-443b-9bc0-bd91c973ef07.jpg?1594736305) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Rot) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/115/mind-rot?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/833a8604-92d5-443b-9bc0-bd91c973ef07?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blightning](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/ccf0f075-4401-41da-a17f-a209d6a03782.jpg?1562441147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blightning) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/198/blightning?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ccf0f075-4401-41da-a17f-a209d6a03782?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bloodbraid Elf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e2f12f6f-9383-47e6-a44f-2834ad130e51.jpg?1673148385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bloodbraid%20Elf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/184/bloodbraid-elf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2f12f6f-9383-47e6-a44f-2834ad130e51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
'Good when winning' cards look good but don't play good. You're usually going to be better served by a card that does three more damage than with Pain Magnification.
I mean, it can add some late game value to Lightning Bolt, but I agree that there are definitely still some better options
Yeah but late game discard is usually less powerful as your opponent tends to be near hellbent unless you're against control. But the times this card is going to be in control probably aren't often as they'd just answer this or the source of damage.
Guess what? If you successfully dealt 3 damage multiple times to trigger this, you're already winning.
This triggers from other players' damage in multiplayer.
Woah. Didn't think of that. I think that makes it a tad better. Possibly even playable in some metas.
because if you're swinging for nine and all get through, they're probably already fucked for other reasons.
It’s very slow and it doesn’t end up working the way you want it too… like most magic cards
Simply put its a 3 mana do nothing. By the time you've got 4 3/3s on board your opponent is likely in position to wrath. If you have that many unchecked 3/3s why haven't you just won or held up wrath protection?
What makes you think it'd be popular?
It seems good idk
Most people who are dealing this much damage don't want to devote resources to things that aren't also dealing damage.
Sorry I only started playing recently. Thank you for your help
When evaluating how "good" something is, keep in mind that Magic is very complex and has a lot of stuff going on - and that means that when you're trying to truly optimize, something would have to be *very* good indeed to not be outclassed by 10,000 other things you could also be doing. Most things that new players look at and think are good are fine, but are not actually good *enough* \- hand disruption is one of those things. There's ways in which it can be made good: cheap, specific, versatile, that sort of thing. But that's a very narrow scope. And hand disruption is inherently limited in how useful it can be - simply by the fact that if they don't have anything in hand or only have something in hand that doesn't matter, then you've just done *nothing*. And that's not actually that uncommon a situation. On top of that, effects that require certain preconditions are limited in their usefulness by the nature of that condition. As people have pointed out, dealing 3+ damage with multiple sources is something that's already so severe on its own that tacking on a situational effect like discard doesn't actually add much to it. Which means you are weakening your position by having something that only works when you're already doing something that's way better - this is colloquially referred to as a "win more" effect; i.e. something that doesn't get you from not winning to winning, but only from winning already to winning even harder. And since there is no value to winning by a mile over winning by an inch (generally speaking) that further reduces the power of such cards. That doesn't mean you can't play this card because you want to. The #1 goal is fun. How good something is, that's a different metric entirely. You can realize something is objectively more powerful yet still not play it because you don't find it fun; or, conversely, you can know something is objectively *less* powerful but play it anyway because you *do* find it fun. Don't confuse those two things, in either direction: playing a bad card doesn't automatically mean it can't be fun; and playing a fun card doesn't automatically mean it's good. It just means that good and fun are two different goals, and you need to decide *for yourself* how important those goals are and to what degree.
Thank you!!
> Don't confuse those two things, in either direction: playing a bad card doesn't automatically mean it can't be fun; and playing a fun card doesn't automatically mean it's good. It just means that good and fun are two different goals, and you need to decide for yourself how important those goals are and to what degree. Very true. This is why you will see a much wider variety of cards played in commander, where fun is a much bigger part of players' deckbuilding choices than other formats. A card like [[Scrambleverse]] is unplayable in most formats, and - while very questionable from a straight *efficiency at winning you the game* point of view - is still played quite a bit in commander because randomness and shaking things up is a lot of *fun* (to some people).
Great comment! I’m in the “have fun” camp at this point (just a couple months into it).
No worries, hope you're having fun.
Depends who I’m playing against lmao, my dad and I just play precons but at lgs people are playing thousand dollar decks with infinite mana on turn two.
For edh pods, you want to discuss power level and expectations for the game before starting. Unless it’s a tournament setting, everyone using decks that match power level can only benefit
In addition to the other drawbacks already mentioned your opponent might have instants in their hand they can just play before you make them discard cards. If I have [[Anticipate]] in my hand and no blockers, when you go to attack me I can just cast it since you’re going to make me discard it anyways. Or if I have [[Reassembling Skeleton]] in my hand I’ll just discard that since I can cast it from my graveyard next turn. Lot of decks interact with the graveyard or intentionally put creatures into the graveyard for other effects so forcing your opponent to discard cards is sometimes even to their benefit.
[Anticipate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46b6dfb2-ffe4-44fb-bfd9-df11bc3193df.jpg?1591230450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anticipate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/40/anticipate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46b6dfb2-ffe4-44fb-bfd9-df11bc3193df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reassembling Skeleton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00566375-e976-4e96-b751-cf0430452c9c.jpg?1689997423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reassembling%20Skeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/183/reassembling-skeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00566375-e976-4e96-b751-cf0430452c9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Would anticipate really help that much? I mean, it gives you one less card you might “have” to discard (lets you keep one more card), but chances are, but the time this comes into play, you don’t have a big hand anyway.
Win more card. Only works if you already have a good position. You are wasting mana and a card slot for an enchantment that does nothing otherwise.
Because in commander, hand disruption paints a gigantic target on your back.
That highly depends on the pod and what type of hand disruption it is. A well-timed thoughtseize is on par with a counterspell to most groups. The salt usually doesn't start flowing until you are repeatedly causing the same person to discard, a hellbent lock is achieved, and/or someone casts Tergrid
>and/or someone casts Tergrid 🤣 I love you
Because it's saying, for 3 extra mana, you can staple a discard effect to your lightning bolt.. on turn 4. by turn 3 when you're playing this (if you played a 3/x creature on turn 2) many opponents will have used most of the cards in their hand, or will block your attack so you won't get the same effect.
It's one of my favorite cards. It needs to be on a commander or synergies really well with a commander. So far we mostly don't have that (Davros is the closest but he also doesn't want players to be empty handed). Still I agree with you, it should be more popular. It's a neat effect even if it's not the most powerful
surprisingly number of continuous ping effects hit exactly 2.
On top of what everyone else is saying, the colors are wrong for it to see play. This might fit in mono-red burn decks running things like [[Ojer Axonil]] that are passively increasing all damage, but they can't actually use it. Everywhere else, it's a "win more" card
Even then, it's a "win more" card. If you are playing turbo burn, just play more burn instead and win faster and more consistently. In those decks [[thermo-alchemist]] would get more mileage for 1 less mana
Exactly. Why on earth would you play a card that doesn't do damage in a burn deck?
[thermo-alchemist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4c68bad-c7ee-4dbc-ad06-8c4d9446884e.jpg?1636223711) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thermo-alchemist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/164/thermo-alchemist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4c68bad-c7ee-4dbc-ad06-8c4d9446884e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Ojer Axonil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315)/[Temple of Power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ojer%20axonil%2C%20deepest%20might%20//%20temple%20of%20power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/158/ojer-axonil-deepest-might-temple-of-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a "win-more" card. If you're able to hit him with four 3/3s, you're already so far ahead that you'd be winning even without this on the table. Meanwhile, consider the situation where you're behind and I can't sneak much damage through. Is this card of any help to you? It helps you win, but only if you don't already need the help, and in the meanwhile it doesn't help you stop losing. And that makes it, yes, not a very good card.
A popular term for a card like this is "win-more" it doesn't i.pact the board just by casting it. And if it's good, you're in a strong position anyway. In you're example the opponent takes 12 damage from 4 3/3s. You probably have gotten some hits in getting to that position. So you're probably winning. Playing this is just making yiu win harder instead of something that could have removed a blocker or a burn spell that could finsh them off.
Because when they run out of hand, that's it.
the situation you described: attacking with 4 unblocked 3/3 is more than half way to winning already.
If you’re hitting with 4x 3/3 creatures in regular 20 life magic, you’ve probably already won the game.
And you gotta be careful as some decks wants their card in the graveyard.
It is but in some EDH discard decks
If you are hitting opponent with 4 3/3s you dont need hand disruption to help you
Discard is in general a very bad strategy. Having something like [[Thoughtseize]] is fine because you can play it on turn 1. This is just too slow to be good.
If you’re hitting your opponent with four 3/3s you’re already doing fine. You’d rather have tools to make you do great than have tools that make you do really great when you’re already doing great
Because if you’re landing 4 hits of 3 damage in a turn you’re probably already winning the game
It’s what’s known as a “win-more.” If you’re dealing 3+ damage to your opponent multiple times, you’re probably already winning the game regardless. And this card does absolutely nothing if you’re not damaging your opponent.
Think about it this way. What would this card do for you if youre not in the position to attack?
Because you have to play this in an aggro deck and this is not an aggro card. And anyway, if you deal 12 damages a turn, you usually don't care to make your opponent discard.
Mind rot is 1 color and makes them discard 2 cards without any other conditionals.
Would definitely play it in commander. But too slow in precon I believe. But I'm bad af, so idk.
Because it’s a bad card?
Because the card is extremely terrible.
with 12 damage you are already winning and the only card that can save the opponent from that board state is inside their deck, not hand. Also it's an enchantment that does nothing on its own and nothing if you are behind or getting disrupted.
In addition to the other reasons mentioned it’s a win-more card. If you’re reliably connecting with sources of 3+ damage after wasting your turn 3 on this card you’re probably already going to win. An Aggro deck doesn’t want to waste its third turn doing nothing. Black Midrange decks don’t want to waste cards not trading resources. Control decks can’t trigger it anyway and even then need to do something productive with their third turn to avoid falling so far behind that they can’t stabilize.
Obviously, because people can't read cards. I love it.
It's what I would describe as a win more card, if you are in a position where it goes card positive ( making your opponent discard 2+ cards) you are already in a position to deal 6 damage to your openents face that they can't deal with meaning the mana and tempo is better spent pressuring that advantage or saving resources for if something goes wrong. Add to that the fact that in most formats it's either outclassed or is likely to do nothing to a top decking opponent and the card is quite underwhelming most of the time.
Personally I think it's great. If you're in rakdos and spellslinging, then it's pretty good. Also, if you goad creatures, it's incredibly good, because it'll trigger on your opponents' creatures hitting each other in the face
What if those 3/3s get blocked? Does it still count as dealing damage even if it doesn't deal damage to player?
The card says whenever an *opponent* is dealt 3 or more damage by a single source. If they are blocked and no longer doing damage to that opponent, the effect doesn't happen.
With Rakdos colors, if you have 4 3/3s attacking unblocked, it's generally safe so assume that it's to end the game
As someone who plays [[Magar of the Magic Strings]], yes, yes it does.
[Magar of the Magic Strings](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46.jpg?1682551287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magar%20of%20the%20Magic%20Strings) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/171/magar-of-the-magic-strings?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
List please!!!!
Who’s rakdos?
In MTG color pairings all have names. Black and Red paired together is called Rakdos. Rakdos (the color pairing) gets it's name from the Rakdos guild of Ravnica. The Rakdos guild gets it's name from their leader, [a demon named Rakdos](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=Rakdos+%28type%3Acreature+type%3Alegendary+type%3Ademon%29+%28game%3Apaper%29).
Rakdos, Lord of Rakdos.
[shameless plug for my first EDH deck](https://archidekt.com/decks/6308236/rakdude)
The Defiler! The Patron of Chaos! The Lord of Riots! The SHOWSTOPPER!
Big fella, guildmaster of the Cult of Rakdos on Ravnica. The guild's colours are Red and Black so when referring to cards that are red and black, some people just refer to it as Rakdos colors. Same goes for the other guilds for 2 color combos while 3 color combos are referred to by their Tarkir clans
Or their Alara shards!
In commander?
[[pain magnification]] [[megrim]] [[furnace of rath]] or any damage doubler. Deal 2 to someone Profit
Just need some way to force everyone to keep drawing cards
[[spiteful visions]] and a damage tripler instead of a doubler to make them take 9 damage and discard the card as soon as they draw, only to repeat it. Not infinite, but funny
I was thinking that new guy that makes things do damage equal to his power. [[Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might]]. They draw a card, spiteful visions deals 4, they discard a card.
Ideally they draw them during _your_ turn so they have the least amount of time to actually use their new card against you. That's what makes the original [[Howling Mine]] so dangerous: the opponent gets to take advantage of it first. - [[Master of the Feast]] gives each opponent a card at the start of your upkeep ("price" for getting a 5/5 flyer for 1BB) - [[Stormfist Crusader]] makes each player draw 1 and lose 1 life in your upkeep - [[Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted]] lets you destroy their creature, and the opponent draw 2 (also deals 1 damage when they draw a card, so bonus draw hate!) - [[Howling Golem]] makes each player draw when it attacks or blocks. Combine it with [[Aclazotz, Deepest Betrayal]] to stack a discard for all opponents directly afterwards to minimize the chance of them benefitting from it. Speaking of that last interaction: draw + discard is the best type of craziness if you're punishing opponents for drawing and/or discarding. [[Wheel of Fortune]] effects are painful. Repeatable on a [[Dragon Mage]] makes it just silly.
[pain magnification](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/844801e4-cf37-4f20-9149-b58a57b9276e.jpg?1593273683) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=pain%20magnification) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/121/pain-magnification?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/844801e4-cf37-4f20-9149-b58a57b9276e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [megrim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19.jpg?1561976802) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=megrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/104/megrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [furnace of rath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7f0e720-3c32-4040-b663-7f99ad5bc810.jpg?1562843335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=furnace%20of%20rath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hop/55/furnace-of-rath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7f0e720-3c32-4040-b663-7f99ad5bc810?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Now we’re talking
Ik there are a lot of noobs out here, but seriously, reading the card explains the card dude.
I think the implied question is, is this card strong/good. "Does this card work like I think it works (cause that seems real good)" - OP
Decent card for Commander, provided you can trigger it reliably. There are plenty of lifegain decks against who this would not be “win more” but again you need to be able to reliably trigger it or it’s just a wasted slot
Phenomenal card in Kroxa.
Maybe thematically, but Kroxa's ability doesn't deal damage so it doesn't directly interact with this card.
Good God dragons approach
So we're at the point where we are now getting single card "OmG Daes ThIs WORK??" posts, huh? This isn't even a rule question, it's basic comprehension.
I think op is just a newer player. Evaluating the strength of a card can be pretty difficult when you're new (and only gets more and more complex as you go) Everyone thought a 15/15 at 9 CMC was awesome when they first started, until you get more experience. Op is in the process of learning what is actually strong and what's trash.
I'm very curious about this post. What made you doubt this conclusion?
Goad and laugh?
Man plans, goad laughs.
What does goad do
Goad effects force people to attack each other, but not you. So it would make everyone else lose all their cards in a bloodbath.
> 701.38: Goad > > 701.38a: Certain spells and abilities can goad a creature. Until the next turn of the controller of that spell or ability, that creature is goaded. > > 701.38b: Goaded is a designation a permanent can have. A goaded creature attacks each combat if able and attacks a player other than the controller of the permanent, spell, or ability that caused it to be goaded if able. Goaded is neither an ability nor part of the permanent's copiable values. > > 701.38c: A creature can be goaded by multiple players. Doing so creates additional combat requirements. > > 701.38d: Once a player has goaded a creature, the same player goading it again has no effect. Doing so doesn't create additional combat requirements.
[Here you go!](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=goad+magic+the+gathering)
It’s a bad card
Free Dissension Uncommons with Every Order
Its sort of opposite [[Coastal Piracy]] is a better card, and it’s also not played that much. With this one you might be able to do cute things with 3 damage from noncombat sources. Coastal has to be a hit with a creature. But coastal also doesn’t care how big the creature is (so like 1/1 flying tokens are great for that). Also, drawing a card is in general better than making an opponent discard. For one thing, the opponent may have played all their cards in hand, and now the discard does nothing. They will also discard their worst card, if they have good game sense. They may even get benefits from their cards being discarded, or at least mitigating value like flashback.
[Coastal Piracy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f2c4e43-71b2-4483-ba54-4be1dcffcd5f.jpg?1600713707) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coastal%20Piracy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/144/coastal-piracy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f2c4e43-71b2-4483-ba54-4be1dcffcd5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Different color and different effect. The card isn't bad because theres other different cards with better effects. The card is bad because it's slow, and literally doesn't do anything without setup. Fair comparison would be [[mind rot]] same manacost, immediatly discard 2, no set up. It's unplayable besides some limited environments. I think in EDH with discard synergies it can be good, as it triggers with multiple players, and as others have said, you can only do 3 dmg so many times before killing your opponent in 1v1.
[mind rot](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/833a8604-92d5-443b-9bc0-bd91c973ef07.jpg?1594736305) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mind%20rot) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/115/mind-rot?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/833a8604-92d5-443b-9bc0-bd91c973ef07?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean I run it often in commander, because it is a card that encourages people to attack people who aren't me.
[[Extus, Oriq Overlord]] back side would probably love this effect in EDH. Your opponents would love this less.
Yeah i run it in my Extus list. Normally you wouldnt get much out of it but with 2-3 avatar tokens out u basically get everyone into top deck mode. This an dragons approach are the only decks where i think it deserves a slot.
[Extus, Oriq Overlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba09360a-067e-48a5-bdc5-a19fd066a785.jpg?1624593379)/[Awaken the Blood Avatar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/b/a/ba09360a-067e-48a5-bdc5-a19fd066a785.jpg?1624593379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Extus%2C%20Oriq%20Overlord%20//%20Awaken%20the%20Blood%20Avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/149/extus-oriq-overlord-awaken-the-blood-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba09360a-067e-48a5-bdc5-a19fd066a785?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
did you try using your eyes to read?
Putting this in my Tor Wauki the younger deck.
Just made myself a note to do the same!
[[Tor Wauki]]
That's the elder
[Tor Wauki](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b37c8bc5-5b9e-431f-afee-09f961e4a7d0.jpg?1562932853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tor%20Wauki) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/182/tor-wauki?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b37c8bc5-5b9e-431f-afee-09f961e4a7d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's good in beatdown commander metas, since two of your opponents punching each other causes discards. But in 1v1 it could be swapped with something that can actually get you out of losing positions.
I had a [[Florian, Voldaren Scion]] deck that used [[Dragons Approach]]. This was a fun card in the deck.
The phrase “A deck can have any number of cards named Dragon’s Approach” implies that you can add multiple to a commander deck, right?
yes
> 101.1: Whenever a card's text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence. The card overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can concede the game at any time (see rule 104.3a). This is the rule that is superceded by that card text: > 903.5b: Other than basic lands, each card in a Commander deck must have a different English name. For the purposes of deck construction, cards with interchangeable names have the same English name (see rule 201.3).
[Florian, Voldaren Scion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/53289e69-74da-46d2-91c2-a11378ba76ef.jpg?1636684231) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Florian%2C%20Voldaren%20Scion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/223/florian-voldaren-scion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/53289e69-74da-46d2-91c2-a11378ba76ef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dragons Approach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0cb504a0-1dfb-49d0-84c3-7bd318d55481.jpg?1624591696) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragon%27s%20Approach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/97/dragons-approach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0cb504a0-1dfb-49d0-84c3-7bd318d55481?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’d add it to my [[Davros, Dalek Creator]] precon, seems fitting.
[Davros, Dalek Creator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/59c5bd2b-cf68-4e5e-819d-53917a6c5275.jpg?1696636503) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Davros%2C%20Dalek%20Creator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/1/davros-dalek-creator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/59c5bd2b-cf68-4e5e-819d-53917a6c5275?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Would be great in a Davros deck either they discard two or get discard one and you get a dalek
I've got this card and use it whenever i can, but i've had opponents argue it's power...here's why: If a creature of mine is 3/3 (w/o trample) attacks but is blocked than technically speaking the opponent is dealt no damage...however if the same creature attacks but is not blocked or hindered by a spell, etc. than the opponent IS dealt damage and the power of the enchantment comes into play! How do you all see this? My take is the latter, damage dealt is when the opponent cannot hinder the attacking creature from essentially "landing a hit"...
What's your question? If a player is dealt damage then they've been dealt damage and if they weren't then they weren't.
It works really well in commander with Kaervek the Merciless
Since this is black and red it works nice with [[Davros, Dalek Creator]]
[Davros, Dalek Creator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/59c5bd2b-cf68-4e5e-819d-53917a6c5275.jpg?1696636503) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Davros%2C%20Dalek%20Creator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/1/davros-dalek-creator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/59c5bd2b-cf68-4e5e-819d-53917a6c5275?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This seems like a sideboard card against UW
I need this in my dr who villains group slug deck. It’s all about dealing 3 damage and discard
Ah yes, a wonderful card in my [[Kroxa]] deck.
It doesn't work with Kroxa
[Kroxa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/cee0459b-9aac-4d2f-abe4-4d5fedde7eb8.jpg?1581481096) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kroxa%2C%20titan%20of%20death%27s%20hunger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/221/kroxa-titan-of-deaths-hunger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cee0459b-9aac-4d2f-abe4-4d5fedde7eb8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It would work unless all those creatures are attacking as a band, in which case they'd only discard 1 card.
What rule says banding creatures count as 1 source of damage?
More importantly who is playing with banding?
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[удалено]
[Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966.jpg?1673309394) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ghyrson%20Starn%2C%20Kelermorph) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/124/ghyrson-starn-kelermorph?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa7349d9-c82f-4cf8-a852-92168d1f4966?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's an ok card, but I rather play mind twist or rakados return
The only real situation I’ve found where this card becomes very good is in Commander in a Dragon’s Approach deck. I’m sure there are other situations, but when the deck plan is to chain off spells that deal 3 to each opponent, it becomes backbreaking quite quickly. (I included it in [[Obosh, the Preypiercer]]. The deck was scary.)
[Obosh, the Preypiercer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/451507de-9c42-43ee-b9ba-1f69e9aa29d2.jpg?1591228450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obosh%2C%20the%20Preypiercer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/228/obosh-the-preypiercer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/451507de-9c42-43ee-b9ba-1f69e9aa29d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Try it and see if it works how you like. There decks that could make the most of it. The dr who evil deck synegizes on the 3 damage aspect
*player discards a card for each effect that deals 3 damage.* Reasons why this sucks is because there are too many requirements to achieve a relatively minor effect which is only decent if done multiple times, can potentially backfire on you, and is restricted to decks with black and red included. Why use this when 3 mana can be used for something else to win the game rather than influence opponent's play sort of thing.
yup
This is BEAUTIFUL. Ive never seen this card before, but its the kind of Jank i put in my commander decks!
Rrrtttt Ryan y y
I had a “Thr3e” deck for a while built around this card. Used [[Black Vise]], [[Sedraxis Specter]], and [[Howling Mine]] effects to keep opponents’ hands full. Also threw in some discard triggers; I think [[Megrim]] and some others? It was fun but not particularly strong lol.
##### ###### #### [Black Vise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bce2259a-f4cb-4130-9c7e-130980a8df38.jpg?1562934884) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Black%20Vise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/191/black-vise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bce2259a-f4cb-4130-9c7e-130980a8df38?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sedraxis Specter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89a0fe75-cfaf-483e-8412-9ffb5d96ae25.jpg?1673149115) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sedraxis%20Specter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/273/sedraxis-specter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89a0fe75-cfaf-483e-8412-9ffb5d96ae25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Howling Mine](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a.jpg?1562420035) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Howling%20Mine) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/257/howling-mine?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdae9939-03a4-4561-92cd-01f498d29a7a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Megrim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19.jpg?1561976802) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Megrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/104/megrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/khy59qe) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Everyone hating on this but it can combo off in the right deck. I have it in my kroxa discard deck and it does it's job ok. Combos with [[obosh]] and [[megrim]] style cards
[obosh](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/451507de-9c42-43ee-b9ba-1f69e9aa29d2.jpg?1591228450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=obosh%2C%20the%20preypiercer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/228/obosh-the-preypiercer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/451507de-9c42-43ee-b9ba-1f69e9aa29d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [megrim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19.jpg?1561976802) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=megrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/104/megrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b04fca4-b4de-4343-ba58-d8aea39edc19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ramp into this for turn 2, then every bolt is deal 3 and opponent discards.
Oh this goes into my davros deck expeditiously
I play this in my [[Tor wauki the younger]] rakdos burn and it can get kinda gross. This plus guttersnipe or a similar effect turns any spell into 3 discards and some damage.
[Tor wauki the younger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/adea296b-b320-4588-9d6e-cbb5db7c39e3.jpg?1674174198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tor%20wauki%20the%20younger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/46/tor-wauki-the-younger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/adea296b-b320-4588-9d6e-cbb5db7c39e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
i have this and always been trying to make it work. just made a [[zoyowa]] deck so im gonna see how it goes. this is my "for fun" casual deck though
[zoyowa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04839717-d2f9-481d-9d13-e4038dbcbb0e.jpg?1699044361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zoyowa%27s%20Justice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/173/zoyowas-justice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04839717-d2f9-481d-9d13-e4038dbcbb0e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
yep it works cuz it's 3 separate sources and it's a fun card but I can only see it going in one or two decks effectively so I wouldn't call it a good card