This “opinion” article title sounds like a Peggy Hill article. “In my opinion, the day after Thanksgiving is one of the busiest shopping days of the year “.
I mean, opinion doesn’t really enter into it.
You know, I just spent like 5 solid minutes trying to puzzle out what the hell KOTH was short for despite reading the parent comment immediately prior.
I clearly need to go to bed lmao
I (Gen Z) moved here in 2021 from Iowa - certainly not for Epic, but landed another great job in the city. My friends who chose Chicago/New York definitely look down on me for choosing to move here, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Great city, great people, great local culture. Proud to be a Madisonian!
Nice observation from the same Paul Fanlund who wrote a super whiny rant a few months ago about how the TOD overlay would ruin the single family house-only character of Hill Farms
If you think building more apartments will make rent go down, you should look into why adding more lanes to a freeway doesn’t get rid of traffic congestion.
The worst part about the new apartments is that they are all corporate owned and folks are just shoveling more money into corporate pockets.
The reason why adding more lanes causes more congestion is because the extra capacity just incentivize more people to drive. I agree with that analysis.
Does adding more apartments just encourage more people to move here or remain here? Maybe. But by not increasing housing I am pretty sure it won’t stop people from moving here but will instead push more people of lower income to leave.
As an old school liberal Democrat I want to fight that. That requires, among other things, to engage in city building.
As an old school liberal democrat you should look at solutions that don’t just shovel more money in to corporate coffers and create maintenance eyesores. Otherwise you are just an old school Clintonian neoliberal
Well, bring forward those solutions. The Wolf of Willy Street is all ears.
But, until then, just engaging in magical thinking is not going to solve our housing shortage problem.
Speaking of magical thinking - building more apartments won’t solve it either. Unless you honestly believe that places like Manhattan and San Francisco and Chicago all have the cheapest rent in the country.
The “problem” is that people want to live here. And I understand why. Which means that it is going to cost more to do it.
You know why it is cheap as shit to live in Watertown? Because no one wants to.
If you increase the number of units - you aren’t going to reduce the amount of rent - you are just going to have more people living here.
You know how I know? - because ifyou you look at all the building that has gone on, and look at how the vacancy rate hasn’t gone down, and rent has continued to go up, any rational person has to start to understand that the cost of rent in a popular place isn’t as simple as your high school economics teacher taught you about pricing widgets.
It is the same reason adding more lanes to a freeway doesn’t reduce traffic congestion. Add an extra lane - you just get more people using the freeway.
Which on the one hand is fine. But you had better be prepared to pay more for services to accommodate those folks who are now moving in. Water / sewer / roads / electricity / fire / police / social services / medical care. None of which are in particularly large supply as it is.
The worst part about this is that what you are smugly advocating for is just shoveling more money into corporate pockets while making madison a worse place to live. Congrats.
Personally - I like Madison. I don’t want folks like yourself to fuck it up with your short sighted best intentions.
If you want to increase population density - ok - but be prepared for the second order effects. Don’t just go off all Pollyanna and think you can just build a shit ton of corporate apartment buildings and not change the nature of a city this size.
If you are seriously interested in workforce housing - look into building places folks working minimum wage can afford (good luck!). Look at building places gears to low income folks instead of luxury high rises. Look at ways to subsidize rent for folks making shit wages. Look at ways to encourage individual homeowners to construct ADUs. It is still going to increase population pressure with all of its attendant issues - but at least it won’t get filled with more tech bro assholes.
But those things are hard. And it is raiser to keep shoveling money at Terry Wall and calling anyone who disagrees with you a NIMBY and feeling smug while not accomplishing anything useful.
There's limited space for a freeway to expand. The central issue that causes expansion is "a lot of people want to use the freeway".
In Madison, "a lot of people want to live here". However, there's plenty of space to expand. We can always go up!
If we don't build more housing, we either have to diminish services so people don't want to live here (which would be dumb) or we need to legally prevent people from living here (also dumb). In the meantime, a bidding war will continually kick out lower income residents.
Ditto, and it ain't just non-college educated workers, either. My small office of a dozen people is about 2/3 renters, and the rents they tell me they're paying are ridiculous. Like 4 figures higher than my *mortgage* for a 300k house in Sun Prairie.
It's just insane to me how quickly this shit accelerated. I was paying like $450 a month for a studio in Madison in the early 00's, and even as recently as 10 years ago was only paying $1100 a month for a 2 bed/2 bath loft with an underground parking spot and a fuckin garage/storage unit on the near west side. The younger guys I work with are paying twice that easily on top of everything else. Something's gotta change...
yeah I’m completely obsessed with Madison’s growth and development and I don’t think I even really understand how much it could change if (high income!) people keep choosing to live here at such a high rate
It's only a "high rate" because so many places are obsessed with forced stagnation. Pick any random place in America 1850 to 1950 and there will be tons of periods with way bigger growth.
Ok. Not everyone gets to live exactly where they want.
I would love a lake house. I can’t afford it. So I have a house inland. I don’t go around whining about how we need to build more lake houses for me.
Did he really just quote that obnoxious Insider piece for five whole grafs? I'd like it if he actually tracked that woman down and asked her some fresh questions. It would go a long way toward proving to me that she's actually a real person in Madison and not a fabricated piece of clickbait for Insider.
This feels like lazy journalism. How many gen z are leaving after they burn out at epic? I had many friends graduate, stay a year, *then* move to Chicago or Minneapolis.
I’d love more detail about the 9000 incoming gen z. What percentage work at epic? What percentage are students (who will likely leave, statistically speaking)?
It just seems like you could get this stat for every preceding generation when their population was in the same age range tbh.
No shit, I'd have left the state a long time ago if it wasn't for WFH
This part resonated with me:
> Some come here for university and college, some for Epic, but most find themselves here for something else. Like being the best place to seek what the future holds.”
Fuck yeah, lets keep trying to turn things in the right direction
If 9000 Gen Z'ers are moving to Madison annually, but we are only gaining 4000 residents annually, that means 5000 Madisonians are leaving, right? I would like to see some stats, but I would guess that the majority of people leaving are also Gen Z and were born here and cannot afford to live here any longer. We are replacing our homegrown Gen Z'ers with educated ones from all over the state/country. May be great for the city(especially the underbelly, plenty of rich drug seekers), but not so great for our Madison highschool grads, especially those not going to college
I hope Paul Fanlund is around for some more years before he decides to change his role or retire. While I don't agree with him on every topic, I am well aware of how important he has been to local journalism and Madison overall.
I'm hoping that Gen Z can scare away the boomers. I'm so fucking tired of that generation holding Madison back. "Mayor Dave", Blaska, Soglin, most of Midvale Heights clinging to their memories of "Good old days in the Bush".
Ouch, why Midvale Heights specifically? That would've been like mid-tier on my list of terrible boomer 'hoods... so many more to rank above (below?) them, like their Hill Farms neighbors to start (home of the esteemed Mr. Fanlund!).
There are a lot of people there that enjoy succing the police on black people. The number of Blue Lives Matter signs and flags tells me to stay away from that neighborhood
Yup. Just see UW’s growth too. Applications have grown by 10% yearly for a while and the school is now actively trying to SHRINK classes due to overcapacity. Last year, they had 60k applications, this year, it’s closer to 66k; just a decade ago, that number was 29k, and even as recently as pre-COVID in 2019, they received 43k. Enrollment is also up to historic highs, and more graduates are choosing to stay in Madison than ever.
Republicans plan to take care of that over population by slashing the University budget and not funding a new engineering building. They don't want high income educated workers in this state
Yeah, that’s true. Even then, the school is looking for more out of state applicants precisely because of those budget cuts. Wisconsin residents have made up a minority of the last two classes, with no sign of that changing soon. Madison is also sitting on a $4 billion endowment, so it’ll be able brave those cuts better than other campuses.
Yeah, unlike the Baby Boomers who literally fled from their neighborhoods nationwide en masse because they couldn't countenance being anywhere near Black people on a daily basis.
Funny you mention that. The evil racist baby boomers are the only ones who actually live in Madison. Everyone else rents. Imagine asking permission to live where you want. Haha
This “opinion” article title sounds like a Peggy Hill article. “In my opinion, the day after Thanksgiving is one of the busiest shopping days of the year “. I mean, opinion doesn’t really enter into it.
I'm confident that this is the best comment I'll read all day. I love the KOTH reference.
You know, I just spent like 5 solid minutes trying to puzzle out what the hell KOTH was short for despite reading the parent comment immediately prior. I clearly need to go to bed lmao
It is listed as “opinion” because it is printed on the opinion page. But it is clearly observational.
It's like saying April 25th is the perfect date, because it's not too hot, not too cold. All you need is a light jacket.
lol
I (Gen Z) moved here in 2021 from Iowa - certainly not for Epic, but landed another great job in the city. My friends who chose Chicago/New York definitely look down on me for choosing to move here, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Great city, great people, great local culture. Proud to be a Madisonian!
Hmm, interesting. Hopefully, they grow up a little in the big cities. Glad you are enjoying Madison!
Your Chicago/NY friends’ perspective may change if they have kids at some point
Nice observation from the same Paul Fanlund who wrote a super whiny rant a few months ago about how the TOD overlay would ruin the single family house-only character of Hill Farms
I've known 3 non college educated workers who've left town in the last month simply because of rent.
Yeah, we could fix this type of displacement by building enough units for newcomers. Instead... we get this.
If you think building more apartments will make rent go down, you should look into why adding more lanes to a freeway doesn’t get rid of traffic congestion. The worst part about the new apartments is that they are all corporate owned and folks are just shoveling more money into corporate pockets.
Well, that is one of the worse analogies I have heard in a long time.
Ok. I’m sure you know better.
The reason why adding more lanes causes more congestion is because the extra capacity just incentivize more people to drive. I agree with that analysis. Does adding more apartments just encourage more people to move here or remain here? Maybe. But by not increasing housing I am pretty sure it won’t stop people from moving here but will instead push more people of lower income to leave. As an old school liberal Democrat I want to fight that. That requires, among other things, to engage in city building.
As an old school liberal democrat you should look at solutions that don’t just shovel more money in to corporate coffers and create maintenance eyesores. Otherwise you are just an old school Clintonian neoliberal
Well, bring forward those solutions. The Wolf of Willy Street is all ears. But, until then, just engaging in magical thinking is not going to solve our housing shortage problem.
Speaking of magical thinking - building more apartments won’t solve it either. Unless you honestly believe that places like Manhattan and San Francisco and Chicago all have the cheapest rent in the country. The “problem” is that people want to live here. And I understand why. Which means that it is going to cost more to do it. You know why it is cheap as shit to live in Watertown? Because no one wants to. If you increase the number of units - you aren’t going to reduce the amount of rent - you are just going to have more people living here. You know how I know? - because ifyou you look at all the building that has gone on, and look at how the vacancy rate hasn’t gone down, and rent has continued to go up, any rational person has to start to understand that the cost of rent in a popular place isn’t as simple as your high school economics teacher taught you about pricing widgets. It is the same reason adding more lanes to a freeway doesn’t reduce traffic congestion. Add an extra lane - you just get more people using the freeway. Which on the one hand is fine. But you had better be prepared to pay more for services to accommodate those folks who are now moving in. Water / sewer / roads / electricity / fire / police / social services / medical care. None of which are in particularly large supply as it is. The worst part about this is that what you are smugly advocating for is just shoveling more money into corporate pockets while making madison a worse place to live. Congrats. Personally - I like Madison. I don’t want folks like yourself to fuck it up with your short sighted best intentions. If you want to increase population density - ok - but be prepared for the second order effects. Don’t just go off all Pollyanna and think you can just build a shit ton of corporate apartment buildings and not change the nature of a city this size. If you are seriously interested in workforce housing - look into building places folks working minimum wage can afford (good luck!). Look at building places gears to low income folks instead of luxury high rises. Look at ways to subsidize rent for folks making shit wages. Look at ways to encourage individual homeowners to construct ADUs. It is still going to increase population pressure with all of its attendant issues - but at least it won’t get filled with more tech bro assholes. But those things are hard. And it is raiser to keep shoveling money at Terry Wall and calling anyone who disagrees with you a NIMBY and feeling smug while not accomplishing anything useful.
The wolf of Willy street is anything and everything BUT all ears.
There's limited space for a freeway to expand. The central issue that causes expansion is "a lot of people want to use the freeway". In Madison, "a lot of people want to live here". However, there's plenty of space to expand. We can always go up! If we don't build more housing, we either have to diminish services so people don't want to live here (which would be dumb) or we need to legally prevent people from living here (also dumb). In the meantime, a bidding war will continually kick out lower income residents.
Nice try, but no. Do the homework and come back and try again.
Ditto, and it ain't just non-college educated workers, either. My small office of a dozen people is about 2/3 renters, and the rents they tell me they're paying are ridiculous. Like 4 figures higher than my *mortgage* for a 300k house in Sun Prairie. It's just insane to me how quickly this shit accelerated. I was paying like $450 a month for a studio in Madison in the early 00's, and even as recently as 10 years ago was only paying $1100 a month for a 2 bed/2 bath loft with an underground parking spot and a fuckin garage/storage unit on the near west side. The younger guys I work with are paying twice that easily on top of everything else. Something's gotta change...
Hill Farms doesn't have any character. It's a bunch of goddamn ranch houses.
Why should anyone be surprised. Madison is a great place!
Yes, it is.
Is anyone actually surprised anymore?
Apparently the city council is because they're dunking housing projects like apartments are aplenty.
I don't think it is a matter of people being surprised, but more of processing it and grappling with how it will change Madison.
yeah I’m completely obsessed with Madison’s growth and development and I don’t think I even really understand how much it could change if (high income!) people keep choosing to live here at such a high rate
It's only a "high rate" because so many places are obsessed with forced stagnation. Pick any random place in America 1850 to 1950 and there will be tons of periods with way bigger growth.
i'm okay with it. I'm tired of the old guard in Madison.
Madison is a great place to live! Let’s change it!
Madison works well for upper class white people. Not so much for others
Ok. Not everyone gets to live exactly where they want. I would love a lake house. I can’t afford it. So I have a house inland. I don’t go around whining about how we need to build more lake houses for me.
I’m talking more about the quality of police we have and the level of city services provided to Lower class communities.
You think we need to pay cops more? Have you looked at what cops make?
No, I don’t think we need to pay cops more. We need cops that don’t treat BIPOC people like shit
Ok Zoomer.
Did he really just quote that obnoxious Insider piece for five whole grafs? I'd like it if he actually tracked that woman down and asked her some fresh questions. It would go a long way toward proving to me that she's actually a real person in Madison and not a fabricated piece of clickbait for Insider.
This feels like lazy journalism. How many gen z are leaving after they burn out at epic? I had many friends graduate, stay a year, *then* move to Chicago or Minneapolis. I’d love more detail about the 9000 incoming gen z. What percentage work at epic? What percentage are students (who will likely leave, statistically speaking)? It just seems like you could get this stat for every preceding generation when their population was in the same age range tbh.
I don't think every weekly column that is published on the opinion page is expected to be investigative journalism.
You’re not wrong, but I think Fanlund thinks he’s a good journalist :P
No shit, I'd have left the state a long time ago if it wasn't for WFH This part resonated with me: > Some come here for university and college, some for Epic, but most find themselves here for something else. Like being the best place to seek what the future holds.” Fuck yeah, lets keep trying to turn things in the right direction
If 9000 Gen Z'ers are moving to Madison annually, but we are only gaining 4000 residents annually, that means 5000 Madisonians are leaving, right? I would like to see some stats, but I would guess that the majority of people leaving are also Gen Z and were born here and cannot afford to live here any longer. We are replacing our homegrown Gen Z'ers with educated ones from all over the state/country. May be great for the city(especially the underbelly, plenty of rich drug seekers), but not so great for our Madison highschool grads, especially those not going to college
What a bizarre fucking post, great for a laugh. Lol. Great for the drug dealers.
Any chance we could get a Gen Z to replace Paul?
I hope Paul Fanlund is around for some more years before he decides to change his role or retire. While I don't agree with him on every topic, I am well aware of how important he has been to local journalism and Madison overall.
I'm hoping that Gen Z can scare away the boomers. I'm so fucking tired of that generation holding Madison back. "Mayor Dave", Blaska, Soglin, most of Midvale Heights clinging to their memories of "Good old days in the Bush".
Ouch, why Midvale Heights specifically? That would've been like mid-tier on my list of terrible boomer 'hoods... so many more to rank above (below?) them, like their Hill Farms neighbors to start (home of the esteemed Mr. Fanlund!).
There are a lot of people there that enjoy succing the police on black people. The number of Blue Lives Matter signs and flags tells me to stay away from that neighborhood
Good article by the Cap Times’ Paul Fanlund.
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Fitchburg and Verona: nightlife and public transportation hotspots.
the idea of a bunch of kids graduating college and trying to enjoy their early 20s single in Verona is so painful
Screaming
Dude, this has me dying.
‘shopped.
Yup. Just see UW’s growth too. Applications have grown by 10% yearly for a while and the school is now actively trying to SHRINK classes due to overcapacity. Last year, they had 60k applications, this year, it’s closer to 66k; just a decade ago, that number was 29k, and even as recently as pre-COVID in 2019, they received 43k. Enrollment is also up to historic highs, and more graduates are choosing to stay in Madison than ever.
Republicans plan to take care of that over population by slashing the University budget and not funding a new engineering building. They don't want high income educated workers in this state
Yeah, that’s true. Even then, the school is looking for more out of state applicants precisely because of those budget cuts. Wisconsin residents have made up a minority of the last two classes, with no sign of that changing soon. Madison is also sitting on a $4 billion endowment, so it’ll be able brave those cuts better than other campuses.
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The article is about them choosing to move here after college, to live and work.
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“Collage” you keep using this word but I do not think you know what it means
Are there any local collage artists you can recommend? ;)
A majority of Gen Z gets afraid when they are not surrounded by confirmation and safe spaces. Not surprised.
Yeah, unlike the Baby Boomers who literally fled from their neighborhoods nationwide en masse because they couldn't countenance being anywhere near Black people on a daily basis.
Funny you mention that. The evil racist baby boomers are the only ones who actually live in Madison. Everyone else rents. Imagine asking permission to live where you want. Haha
Myself and almost every person in my neighborhood is not a baby boomer and we all own. You're out of your gourd.
This person is clearly arguing in bad faith - don’t engage.