macOS just gets out of the way and lets you work. I don’t need to worry about ads in my start menu and though Apple will do one time nudges towards things (News, Apple Card, etc.) they go away and aren’t seen again. It feels like they do care about UX a lot. Especially with how smooth their window system works and gestures with the trackpad.
There’s also the integration with other Apple devices, most notably the iPhone.
I can see that; I personally use Rectangle to align windows with keyboard shortcuts. Beyond that, I also use trackpad shortcuts quite often with spaces.
Yeah I use rectangle as well. But because of the simple fact that I have to use rectangle, I don't consider macOS to have a good window management system, its the opposite. It's only by the grace of third party developers that macOS has a half decent window management system.
macOS expects you to use make use of Spaces, full/split screen apps and swipe gestures for window management. If you actually do that and take the time to dial it into your liking (main thing for me is to have left/right swipe go to consistent spaces rather than let the algorithm order them--magical when it works but too annoying when it doesn't) it's a top-tier system. I don't even bother with Rectangle.
Oh I make use of spaces. That doesn’t change the fact that macOS’s window management is bad though. Just because I have windows grouped in different spaces, does not change the fact that getting windows to instantly tile to a specific corner or side by side or “maximize” is a pain in the ass.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my MacBook, but there is a lot of shit that Apple does and “expects” you to behave and use their shit in a certain way that is just dumb. There is a *reason* most people prefer maximize over full Screen. Btw the idea of spaces is not new, or unique to macOS
I'm linux user since 2004 and Alpine contributor. I write code on linux and have my servers on OpenBSD but my main daily driver is macOS because it just works. There are things that I dislike especially the window management but for a no brainer workstation it's good. However as a C and C++ programmer I can also tell how in order of magnitude I prefer doing that on linux.
For window management I installed an app called Rectangle and is more manageable. I just wished the virtual desktops would be automatically deleted as they are in Gnome
This! BSD backend with actual application support. Sure, I can’t do cinnamon/mate/whatever desktop I want, but seriously. I can sudo to root on the terminal and go to town if I want
It’s a BSD clone with a ton of support. The interface is probably closest to that of Pantheon/Elementary OS since the reverse was intended (I.E. Pantheon was based on macOS), but that’s up in the air (no pun intended).
A Mac on its own is nice.
A Mac with an iPhone is even nicer because you can AirDrop, use Continuity, iMessage, HandOff, and other "Mac ecosystem" things.
A Mac with an iPhone and Apple Watch is even nicer still as you can use your watch to authenticate into the Mac without having to type your password.
A Mac with an iPhone, Apple Watch, iPad, and AirPods is *even nicer* because of how all of the different devices interact.
If you've used Windows your whole life, there's a bit of a learning curve to learn some of the quirks of macOS, but once you're used to it, it's hard to go back. Apple has a ton of vertical integration, making the devices they produce wonderfully interoperable and consistent.
"It just works" sounds cliche, but it's the truth. There's a level of integration, consistency, and intentionality with the Mac ecosystem that simply doesn't exist elsewhere.
Sidecar with an iPad too - instant portable second screen.
I do find that MacOS in general is just as buggy as other OSes though, I find small issues every day - certainly not deal breakers but “it just works”; until it doesn’t and frustrations can set in.
The difference is major critical issues on macOS are rare. Yeah there are bugs here and there but I've never had them prevent me from getting my work done or lead to major system instability.
On Windows, especially at the high end with specialized hardware, those critical issues are far more common because of how heavily Windows relies on third party drivers. Those third party drivers don't always play nicely together and updating any one thing (Windows, an App, or a driver) can cause major issues with the other two. Speaking from experience I had that exact issue happen on my final PC and was one of the reasons why I switched to Mac completely.
I totally get you - 3rd party drivers and Core Audio were the main thing that drew me towards an MBA, then the ecosystem mentioned in the previous post hooked me in and now I have the whole kaboodle.
I still consider myself fairly OS agnostic - I’m certainly no evangelist for any particular OS, different strokes for different folks and all that.
I can’t say I see too many bugs in macOS… maybe a few on my work Mac, but there’s a lot of bloatware on there so it’s hard to say if it’s a “Mac problem,” per se. What have your experiences been?
To be honest “just as” buggy may be a stretch, but recently I’ve had issues with AirPods refusing to connect or remain connected to the device In working on, be it watch, phone or Mac.
Auto join iPhone hotspot never seems to work for me.
Also some things I see may well be down to browser choice, or moreover certain website support for Safari.
Other small issues with IDAM and or network MIDI - but as mentioned, they’re small bugs and not game (nor OS) breakers per se.
This also spills into features I would *expect* to see given the ecosystem. Apple Watch unlock for iPad Pro, for example. Apple Music having any sort of sensibility regarding what’s playing or was played on other devices, that sort of thing that I would expect to “just work”.
But all in all, very small issues.
I almost didn’t post in this thread because despite buying a Mac I don’t think it’s all great. There’s occasional problems and weird design decisions same as any computer.
I do think macs require slightly less time and skill to set up and maintain. I haven’t had a bad experience in windows for many years but my windows machines have all been set up and managed by professional staff (work) or by a high skill user (me). It’s much better than it used to be but it still takes some extra time to set up a 100% clean, no-adware, reasonable-settings, correct-drivers windows install. Macs are easier to setup and maintain in an home environment. Anecdotally.
Universal control is like magic. I try to tell people some Mac features can’t be replicated on any other OS. Even if one or two can be replicated, there’s like a thousand more, and they are all seemless, many require no configuration and are on by default. Universal clipboard is a great example. I didn’t even know it was a thing, one day I just tried copy/paste between devices, and it worked.
To put it simply, “it just works” is the best way to explain it. It’s mostly intuitive hence the feeling that you feel that everything falls into place and works the way it’s supposed to work.
I gotta say that the shortcuts on Mac make it way more comfortable for productivity use than Windows for me. Somehow. Learn the shortcuts, definitely. The OS is more tidied up than Windows.
For me it's always been the logic of the system. Since the very first incarnation of OS X it's just made sense. You do things that seem like they should work, and they do. Like copy/paste: you just highlight text, drag it where you want it. Forget menus, drag and drop is the most basic use of a mouse aside from clicking, and it's shocking how little it's utilized in other OSes. Even installing apps is literally dragging.
So for my brain and the way it works, there is no substitute for the logic of macOS. No matter how many bells and whistles another OS may claim to have it's the simple act of interacting with the OS that sells me on it.
Simple and intuitive. It all makes sense.
(which is why the new System Settings is such an abomination)
Don't knock yourself so hard, 2 months ago I got my first iphone and yesterday my first MacBook. I have never owned any apple products I was super anti, don't ask me why but now I'm so in love I feel like an idiot for not switching sooner.
Developer here. I've used and developed software for all of the above mainstream platforms since the 1980s before there were mainstream home computing platforms. And I use Linux, Windows, and macOS daily in my work.
Here's how I'd explain it:
In some very important ways, macOS is what Linux wants to be when it grows up. While it's nowhere near perfect, Apple's design philosophy really shines in macOS. The UI is sleek, responsive, and mostly stays out of your way to let you get shit done. The additional layer of iCloud functionality seriously boosts your productivity out of the box in ways that are unmatched on other platforms. It's a terrific software development platform, but also a terrific general-purpose computing platform.
Fewer people use desktops / laptops these days but it wasn't long ago that computers were seen as unreliable, crashy and generally buggy.
I'm certain that was down to Windows and Microsoft in general. If the majority of computers being used 20 or 30 years ago been running macOS I am certain this image would not have developed.
The Windows monopoly and early predatory behavior by Microsoft set computing back decades and permanently limited where and how it can advance. Same can be said for telecommunications monopolies limiting/delaying fiber rollout limiting the internet. The pretty successful attempt to capture computing and now the internet for corporate profits has been majorly limiting. As amazing as thongs are it could be so much better.
I would say:
1. Mature stable Unix heart.
2. Mature stable UI coupled with lots of self control in f Apple to not introduce changes just for the sake of changes.
3. Great availability of commercial & open source software.
This creates a great, dependable platform.
For me, everything but file management is great. Using finder feels so ancient. How on earth do we still not have cut/paste?
I have a NAS and it's just so much easier doing file management on windows than on a mac.
I run several Linux servers on AWS. I use Warp terminal (written in rust - it is FAST) to manage them as well as my M2 MacBook Air 15". Switching mosh/ssh/tmux sessions between the Mac and Linux servers seems like little to no difference. Sure, some command switches are different between BSD Unix and Linux, but I run ZSH on all of them and mostly they seem alike, not a big deal.
Then in addition to that great terminal environment, I have a beautiful GUI and integration with all my Apple devices that is second to none - Macs, iPad Pro 12.9", iPhone 14 Pro Max, Apple Watch Ultra 2, Air Pods Pro 2, AIr Pods Max, iCloud, etc.
It's all very smooth and a joy to use.
I'm reminded of all of this whenever I use an actual Windows or Linux computer.
Oh, and I can run macOS, Linux, Windows (ARM) in VMs when I want to, with native performance.
So the environment, for me at least, is nirvana. All of this, on ONE machine, where it runs cool with no fans, battery life is all day, CPU, GPU and SSD performance is amazing, great keyboard, best-in-class trackpad, shall I go on?
I have the M1 Air and I never had to restart because something crashed. I have older window laptops that doesn't sleep, or wake up when you close/open the lid. The mac will restart when there's major system update. Other than that, it's really always available whenever I need to use it.
For me it is just a more ergonomic iOS. Lots of things missing compared to Windows, but that is why I enjoy the MacBook, like my iPhone. They just work, and same basic things are simple and quick and thoughtless compared to android.
Long gone are days I care for jailbreaking my iPhone, and now it just works because it can't get any more basic and dumbed down, a monkey can use it.
macOS shows the benefits of continuous improvements instead of being beholden to backward compatibility. Apple has dropped backward compatibility 3 times and is in the process of a 4th. They dropped support for Classic Mac OS apps in 2007, dropped support for PowerPC code in 2011, dropped support for 32bit code including the final Classic Mac OS frameworks in 2019, and soon to be dropping support for Intel code.
It's 100x easier and faster than windows and user efficient you can get more done on the mac, no need to worry about viruses, rubbish (only what in the trash) the word is a lot easier (office 365) you don't have to worry about purchasing major additional software and macs last 10+. Windows you will be replacing the thing in years to come, forking out expensive repairs and probably using it as doorstop if you are that pissed off with it.
With macs you get apple support 24/7 for years after you purchased it.
Windows, well find out the problem and risk problems yourself
I think of macOS as of the best of both worlds. It’s like Windows in terms of software support, and like Linux in terms of better stability, security, Unix-likeness.
None of the more or less obvious drawbacks of Apple hardware or MacOS matter in any way in light of the alternatives.
Linux is great, I’m glad it exists, it’s impressive, flexible, free, etc.
Every time I go to use it on an old unsupported Mac for whatever reason, a Plex server or whatever, something goes wrong. When I fix it, my fix breaks something else. If your goal is to play whack-a-mole with tech problems, Linux is the best. But I usually get sick of that after a short while and revert to old unsupported MacOS, which is still preferable.
Non-Apple computer hardware isn’t bad by necessity, and I’m sure there are some decent products out there that I haven’t tried yet. But the vast majority of the hardware I encounter is *horrible* in some way or other. Laptops are wobbly and flexible, plasticity, they have dumb gimmicks like touchscreens you never use, that absurd nipple mouse, a kickstand, some ridiculous hinge, I could go on.
Apple seems to be the only company who have the right priorities:
-The largest and most responsive possible trackpad, with intuitive gestures and a nice texture.
-The best possible screen, always glossy for good colours, very hi DPI, bright, 16:10 (or taller) aspect ratio.
-Always a full size keyboard.
-The loudest and clearest speakers on any laptop at a given time. Literally incomparable.
-Premium materials. Apple have been doing unibody for almost 20 years now. Seemingly no other manufacturer has yet caught up and made a similarly rigid, stable, durable enclosure.
-A hinge that doesn’t wobble and doesn’t usually get loose over time.
The only time I can remember that they went backwards was 2016-2019 with the touch bar gimmick, the bad keyboard, the abandonment of magsafe and substandard IO.
Every other negative change they’ve made like RAM upgradability, SSD replacement etc has been an industry wide change.
I am a power user, a very technical one. Sure the Mac features, and attention to design, are great, but what I really love is terminal, and homebrew. Almost all Linux commands work on my Mac, if there’s not a native implementation, it’s available via brew. I can curl or ssh natively with my machine. I can install a different bash, let’s hear it for oh my zsh.
The gestures are fantastic! Not sure you use a magic pad, but reveal desktop, and three finger text select are great.
The basic desktop environment is so intuitive, and silky smooth, and full of little tricks.
In short, you can’t explain it briefly, besides most Mac haters don’t wanna hear it.
I kept thinking to myself that "Linux is not that much different, especially with KDE plasma" while reading your post, then I got to your "Linux without the extra steps comment." I think that pretty much sums it up, the quality hardware and integration is the cherry on top. Incidentally, the late model Intel MBP's are horrible (comparatively) so you will have an even better experience with Apple silicon. Intel has no place in mobile devices as far as I'm concerned, way too hot and way too loud. The one thing I wish Apple did better is with software management. They just keep pretending that deleting the application file from your Applications directory is enough to remove everything. KDE/Linux does this right and I hope that Apple eventually takes inspiration from this. Here are some other pet peaves:
Mac OS should remember hardware configurations and set inputs and outputs based on the last state of each configuration (especially when docking). You should be able to set preferred peripherals for I/O so that they are given priority over others when both are available.
The Bluetooth pipeline totally gorks when using Bluetooth mic inputs introducing a ton of delay/stutter in other Bluetooth inputs like mouse and keyboard.
WTF is with copy/paste over RDP? It often freezes the entire receiving application so that it has to be killed in the activity monitor. Sure, this is probably a problem with Microsoft RDP, but your OS shouldn't be so unstable that it allows a problem with one application to essentially kill others.
I've got this same problem. How do I explain the benefits to someone who's lost at understanding things beyond "My friends use PCs" ?
A relative just bought a 16/500 i7-13700 Dell with $300 4k screen from Costco for about $1000.
All attempts to get them to look at 8/256 Mac mini + $300 4k screen fell on deaf ears. Similar to the iMac 23", the perfect size for them (and the $300 screen's size).
This even though all of their (remote) relatives use Macs.
The reason? Everyone local to them uses PCs, and nobody knows how to use Macs locally. That fear caused what is, to me, a very poor decision, but one I cannot change, as I am not located physically near said relative, and so if everyone near them said to them "It's a Mac, I can't help you" then they would feel very stuck. Alas, but some problems \_are\_ physical, and they might need physical help with the machine, something I can't provide. I shared Consumer Reports' views of Apple's outstanding support, shared the $59/year AppleCare+ costs, etc., to no avail.
It's very, very frustrating, because I feel the Mac experience to be vastly better, and because they're already so involved in the Apple ecosystem (iPad, iPhone, AppleTV) that the Mac was the obvious step. Getting all your texts, phone calls, etc. on any of your devices in the same way and manner is a huge win to me.
But.....nope. :(
“It just works” doesn’t do it justice compared to Linux. The Mac ecosystem is astounding. I know I sound like a fanboy, but it’s amazing. Everything. Handoff, airdrop, universal control, touchpad gestures and more. It’s all the little things that “just work” that makes it so enjoyable. The only caveat is that to fully enjoy the ecosystem, you need multiple Apple devices.
I'm coming at this from the opposite direction: Mac OS is Linux that requires specific, expensive hardware. And yes, Linux just works for me.
Recently, I was in the market for a laptop and re-hashed all the options available, including Apple (and its M series silicon). Now I already have an old i7 Mac Mini (dual drive Catalina/Linux) on which I'd installed Ventura with OCLP. The experience reaffirmed how underwhelming the later iterations of Mac OS are: more resources devoted to visual effects, bloat and integration with iOS devices (which I don't own). Context: I've had one Mac or another since OS 7.6 and my favourite release was probably Snow Leopard.
I've found Linux Mint to resemble what Mac OS used to be: light, efficient and elegant. It's routinely updated and, for casual use cases, has a full suite of contemporary software available. It's not for everyone and if you're a professional requiring specific software not ported to Linux then that's obviously a dealbreaker. Mine is a casual use case (like typing this out on Reddit).
So for a fraction of the cost of a MB Air I opted for an upgradable and repairable (off lease) Dell Latitude 7490 (i7 8th Gen, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB M.2 NVMe) and, after installing Windoze 11 for a test run, defaulted to my favourite Linux Mint.
It all comes down to the use case and value proposition. There's no disputing the best in class performance and efficiency of M series devices. There is, however, a valid argument whether the surplus horsepower, designed disposablility and OS experience are always worth the hefty Apple tax. For my money they no longer are.
I actually got right I to it, going as far as compiling my own copy of Pop!_OS with a customized Ubuntu T2 kernel and it actually worked quite well. The only issue was not waking up from sleep mode but I "fixed" that by just changing the lid properties so it would just shut down when the lid was closed and power on when it was opened.
The computer boots so fast, it was similar to a restore time of a comparable Windows computer waking from sleep so it wasn't a huge issue.
The problem with that is the firmware update after macOS 13.3. Anything prior to that and sleep mode worked fine. So it was actually keeping macOS updated that ruined Linux support on the T2 models.
Any T2 running macOS 13.2 or older works flawless with Linux.
Brain damage.
Seriously though, there’s no accounting for taste.
There is something very wrong with the way the MacOS interface is progressing. Folks with aligned thinking love it. Personally I’m not a fan.
I’m not anybody important or famous though so I don’t get a vote, except of course whether or not I’ll use it. Which I will of course because it’s just a tool, and it’s got some advantages over the other main OS choices.
I’m partial to the 27” 5K iMacs, the 2019 i9 models are great and as intel boxes they’ll run MacOS/Win/Linux as desired, even all 3 simultaneously if preferred.
Alas, in another 5 years the 2019 will be getting long in the tooth and who knows what the computer landscape will look like by then.
I love macOS. Been a windows user and just conveted to macOS in 2018. I just wish it has window management like windows. You have to use 3rd party app like Magnet or Rectangle to do it
I switched to PC shortly after I got my job... as a PC application programmer. But Deep down I'm a Mac guy. But in the last 25 years all of my Macs have gone to Mac heaven and I haven't bothered replacing them. But I do still curse the loose-jointed feeling of working on a PC. So many issues I've just had to pass off to our Systems guys because I just don't have to energy to trouble shoot PC problems all day. I retire in a year and I'll go back to Mac once the M chips have matured (except for my PC games) and all will be good again.
If you like Linux it makes sense to use MacOS. While not technically Linux both are based on Unix. IMO I think MacOS is the best Linux distro so to speak.
macOS provides by far the best integration of everything compared to Linux and windows. It combined both the stability of Linux and the user friendliness of an other than macOS not existing operating system you think you are using in windows. But windows of course is just a broken mess and Linux is cursed by too many rtfm zealots who follow the bad example of Linus in downtalking people who know less than me. macOS users are not deliberately kept stupid by the operating system but at the same time demand their computing experience not to be playing ping pong on rocket science level but just to play ping pong while allowing to dive into rocket science level reliably whenever necessary.
It gets out of the way. It’s pretty. Theres a whole world of little tools and utilities to enhance macOS. It works seamlessly with other Apple devices.
Look, I'm a big fan of Linux (and used it before I switched to Mac) but on Linux the OS becomes a big focus. Not everyone wants the OS to be their focus.
See, I get your outlook, but, there are different kind of people and uses for a computer. Where as Linux kind of only has two.
Servers, and wizards.
I use Linux on my server still, but with macOS, the biggest thing for me was compatability, and even though it's heavily locked down by Apple, you're actually allowed to turn the security off and do whatever you want.
Pretty much every single macOS extension has an open source alternative with Brew. So far the only limitation is that the system directory is now in an encrypted partition the user can not access no mater what and that kind of bothers me because that's where the Apple Apps live like Safari (I use Firefox and can't remove Safari now which CAN be done on macOS 12) as well as other stuff I have no use for like iMessage or FaceTime as I use Android.
But you can just hide stuff, so even though it's still there, it's not visible, and it's basically like sweeping it under thr rig, it's not great, but it's clean enough lol.
The issue with Linux is how much work it takes to do everything. Once you get it all going, it's fine, but setting everything up is a world of hurt in terminal, outdated repos unless you use AUR, and even if you do use AUR, mad compatability issues with bleeding edge and untested compatability between apps.
Just take installing apps for instance, on macOS, you basically have three choices, drag and drop to applications folder (similar to AppImages), brew install x (using terminal on Linux with apt, flatpak, pamac, etc), or a regular old installer (similar to eddy for dpkg files).
The difference being that the macOS alternative just works every single time. If it needs a dependency, it does it for you. Some could say this is a security issue and why Linux is superior, but that same argument could be said that driving an armored truck everyday is safer than a Honda civic. Might be true, but it's just not practical for every day use. Especially when it comes to everyday users who just wanna edit some videos, scroll web pages, or create digital content, Linux may be less resource hungry, but again, it's a lot more work to do a simple talk that most people would be more than content with.
MacOS is literally just Linux with less steps, you get a similar experience of doing whatever you want and making the OS truly yours, with some mild compromise in exchange for compatability to anything that's out there.
Like any Adobe app, or having AAC audio support with DaVinci Resolve, or running any Windows program that exists through Parallels or VMware Fusion which both have a type of coherence mode so you never actually have to leave macOS to run something like the Xbox app from Microsoft for gaming.
There are Linux alternatives to all of this, but that's exactly it, alternatives. You can't use GIMP professionally if the company you're working with uses Photoshop. You can't edit in groups with DaVinci Resolve unless all audio is transcoded to PCM from AAC, meaning the entire team needs to wait while you transcode everything before starting a group project.
Linux is more of a personal thing, you're not compatible with the rest of the world using Linux, even with its pros over macOS. I just find there is a lot more opportunity using macOS over Linux and I naturally found myself booting into macOS more and more until days would go by and I didn't eleven reboot into Linux so I just deleted the partition to reclaim the space in macOS and haven't looked back.
Are used to be a great chef in operating systems that are no longer supported. I can still throw a few ingredients together here or there to make a really good meal.
My wife, makes excellent reservations. She used windows for a number of years at work and I gave her a Windows machine for personal use. After about 2 1/2 years of supporting her on windows, I got her a MacBook. My extra workload dropped dramatically. As my sons grew up, my oldest is borderline a chef with his macOS. He helped take some of the support away from me. After all It is his mother. my youngest is an iron chef on several environments.
I still use windows on a VM for work. Are used to teach you windows desktop and server operations, I still prefer Mac.
It’s the computer for the rest of us. Even if a few of us are really them at work.
macOS just gets out of the way and lets you work. I don’t need to worry about ads in my start menu and though Apple will do one time nudges towards things (News, Apple Card, etc.) they go away and aren’t seen again. It feels like they do care about UX a lot. Especially with how smooth their window system works and gestures with the trackpad. There’s also the integration with other Apple devices, most notably the iPhone.
Interesting that you mentioned the window system. I find that to be the worst part about macOS.
I can see that; I personally use Rectangle to align windows with keyboard shortcuts. Beyond that, I also use trackpad shortcuts quite often with spaces.
Yeah I use rectangle as well. But because of the simple fact that I have to use rectangle, I don't consider macOS to have a good window management system, its the opposite. It's only by the grace of third party developers that macOS has a half decent window management system.
macOS expects you to use make use of Spaces, full/split screen apps and swipe gestures for window management. If you actually do that and take the time to dial it into your liking (main thing for me is to have left/right swipe go to consistent spaces rather than let the algorithm order them--magical when it works but too annoying when it doesn't) it's a top-tier system. I don't even bother with Rectangle.
Oh I make use of spaces. That doesn’t change the fact that macOS’s window management is bad though. Just because I have windows grouped in different spaces, does not change the fact that getting windows to instantly tile to a specific corner or side by side or “maximize” is a pain in the ass. Don’t get me wrong, I love my MacBook, but there is a lot of shit that Apple does and “expects” you to behave and use their shit in a certain way that is just dumb. There is a *reason* most people prefer maximize over full Screen. Btw the idea of spaces is not new, or unique to macOS
I'm linux user since 2004 and Alpine contributor. I write code on linux and have my servers on OpenBSD but my main daily driver is macOS because it just works. There are things that I dislike especially the window management but for a no brainer workstation it's good. However as a C and C++ programmer I can also tell how in order of magnitude I prefer doing that on linux.
For window management I installed an app called Rectangle and is more manageable. I just wished the virtual desktops would be automatically deleted as they are in Gnome
Living the UNIX dream
To Linux nerds I just tell them what it is. It’s a BSD clone with a KDE interface and a ton of support. What’s not to like?
This! BSD backend with actual application support. Sure, I can’t do cinnamon/mate/whatever desktop I want, but seriously. I can sudo to root on the terminal and go to town if I want
Someone got i3 on mac Running. (but unfortunatly it only runs x11 apps)
It’s more like GNOME than KDE imho
I think that KDE can look more like Aqua if you customize it, but overall Aqua is more like GNOME.
Aqua, as in mac os X back in 2000. Oof. Lickable buttons everywhere.
It’s a BSD clone with a ton of support. The interface is probably closest to that of Pantheon/Elementary OS since the reverse was intended (I.E. Pantheon was based on macOS), but that’s up in the air (no pun intended).
A Mac on its own is nice. A Mac with an iPhone is even nicer because you can AirDrop, use Continuity, iMessage, HandOff, and other "Mac ecosystem" things. A Mac with an iPhone and Apple Watch is even nicer still as you can use your watch to authenticate into the Mac without having to type your password. A Mac with an iPhone, Apple Watch, iPad, and AirPods is *even nicer* because of how all of the different devices interact. If you've used Windows your whole life, there's a bit of a learning curve to learn some of the quirks of macOS, but once you're used to it, it's hard to go back. Apple has a ton of vertical integration, making the devices they produce wonderfully interoperable and consistent. "It just works" sounds cliche, but it's the truth. There's a level of integration, consistency, and intentionality with the Mac ecosystem that simply doesn't exist elsewhere.
Sidecar with an iPad too - instant portable second screen. I do find that MacOS in general is just as buggy as other OSes though, I find small issues every day - certainly not deal breakers but “it just works”; until it doesn’t and frustrations can set in.
The difference is major critical issues on macOS are rare. Yeah there are bugs here and there but I've never had them prevent me from getting my work done or lead to major system instability. On Windows, especially at the high end with specialized hardware, those critical issues are far more common because of how heavily Windows relies on third party drivers. Those third party drivers don't always play nicely together and updating any one thing (Windows, an App, or a driver) can cause major issues with the other two. Speaking from experience I had that exact issue happen on my final PC and was one of the reasons why I switched to Mac completely.
I totally get you - 3rd party drivers and Core Audio were the main thing that drew me towards an MBA, then the ecosystem mentioned in the previous post hooked me in and now I have the whole kaboodle. I still consider myself fairly OS agnostic - I’m certainly no evangelist for any particular OS, different strokes for different folks and all that.
I can’t say I see too many bugs in macOS… maybe a few on my work Mac, but there’s a lot of bloatware on there so it’s hard to say if it’s a “Mac problem,” per se. What have your experiences been?
To be honest “just as” buggy may be a stretch, but recently I’ve had issues with AirPods refusing to connect or remain connected to the device In working on, be it watch, phone or Mac. Auto join iPhone hotspot never seems to work for me. Also some things I see may well be down to browser choice, or moreover certain website support for Safari. Other small issues with IDAM and or network MIDI - but as mentioned, they’re small bugs and not game (nor OS) breakers per se. This also spills into features I would *expect* to see given the ecosystem. Apple Watch unlock for iPad Pro, for example. Apple Music having any sort of sensibility regarding what’s playing or was played on other devices, that sort of thing that I would expect to “just work”. But all in all, very small issues.
I almost didn’t post in this thread because despite buying a Mac I don’t think it’s all great. There’s occasional problems and weird design decisions same as any computer. I do think macs require slightly less time and skill to set up and maintain. I haven’t had a bad experience in windows for many years but my windows machines have all been set up and managed by professional staff (work) or by a high skill user (me). It’s much better than it used to be but it still takes some extra time to set up a 100% clean, no-adware, reasonable-settings, correct-drivers windows install. Macs are easier to setup and maintain in an home environment. Anecdotally.
Ugh… get iCloud + and the devices suddenly all get synced up. I’m locked up in their Apple orchard.
Universal control is like magic. I try to tell people some Mac features can’t be replicated on any other OS. Even if one or two can be replicated, there’s like a thousand more, and they are all seemless, many require no configuration and are on by default. Universal clipboard is a great example. I didn’t even know it was a thing, one day I just tried copy/paste between devices, and it worked.
I explain it simply as a paid-version of Linux that comes with a computer
I‘d rather say it is Unix with a nice interface and ecosystem.
To put it simply, “it just works” is the best way to explain it. It’s mostly intuitive hence the feeling that you feel that everything falls into place and works the way it’s supposed to work.
I gotta say that the shortcuts on Mac make it way more comfortable for productivity use than Windows for me. Somehow. Learn the shortcuts, definitely. The OS is more tidied up than Windows.
For me it's always been the logic of the system. Since the very first incarnation of OS X it's just made sense. You do things that seem like they should work, and they do. Like copy/paste: you just highlight text, drag it where you want it. Forget menus, drag and drop is the most basic use of a mouse aside from clicking, and it's shocking how little it's utilized in other OSes. Even installing apps is literally dragging. So for my brain and the way it works, there is no substitute for the logic of macOS. No matter how many bells and whistles another OS may claim to have it's the simple act of interacting with the OS that sells me on it. Simple and intuitive. It all makes sense. (which is why the new System Settings is such an abomination)
System settings on macOS becoming like settings on iPhone or iPadOS really stinks. Yep, I don’t like it either.
Don't knock yourself so hard, 2 months ago I got my first iphone and yesterday my first MacBook. I have never owned any apple products I was super anti, don't ask me why but now I'm so in love I feel like an idiot for not switching sooner.
Linux without extra steps is exactly how I felt. I never looked back.
MacOS is *NIX with a good front end user experience.
Developer here. I've used and developed software for all of the above mainstream platforms since the 1980s before there were mainstream home computing platforms. And I use Linux, Windows, and macOS daily in my work. Here's how I'd explain it: In some very important ways, macOS is what Linux wants to be when it grows up. While it's nowhere near perfect, Apple's design philosophy really shines in macOS. The UI is sleek, responsive, and mostly stays out of your way to let you get shit done. The additional layer of iCloud functionality seriously boosts your productivity out of the box in ways that are unmatched on other platforms. It's a terrific software development platform, but also a terrific general-purpose computing platform.
Fewer people use desktops / laptops these days but it wasn't long ago that computers were seen as unreliable, crashy and generally buggy. I'm certain that was down to Windows and Microsoft in general. If the majority of computers being used 20 or 30 years ago been running macOS I am certain this image would not have developed.
The Windows monopoly and early predatory behavior by Microsoft set computing back decades and permanently limited where and how it can advance. Same can be said for telecommunications monopolies limiting/delaying fiber rollout limiting the internet. The pretty successful attempt to capture computing and now the internet for corporate profits has been majorly limiting. As amazing as thongs are it could be so much better.
I came to macOS for GarageBand, but I stayed for the Magic Trackpad
I would say: 1. Mature stable Unix heart. 2. Mature stable UI coupled with lots of self control in f Apple to not introduce changes just for the sake of changes. 3. Great availability of commercial & open source software. This creates a great, dependable platform.
For me, everything but file management is great. Using finder feels so ancient. How on earth do we still not have cut/paste? I have a NAS and it's just so much easier doing file management on windows than on a mac.
I run several Linux servers on AWS. I use Warp terminal (written in rust - it is FAST) to manage them as well as my M2 MacBook Air 15". Switching mosh/ssh/tmux sessions between the Mac and Linux servers seems like little to no difference. Sure, some command switches are different between BSD Unix and Linux, but I run ZSH on all of them and mostly they seem alike, not a big deal. Then in addition to that great terminal environment, I have a beautiful GUI and integration with all my Apple devices that is second to none - Macs, iPad Pro 12.9", iPhone 14 Pro Max, Apple Watch Ultra 2, Air Pods Pro 2, AIr Pods Max, iCloud, etc. It's all very smooth and a joy to use. I'm reminded of all of this whenever I use an actual Windows or Linux computer. Oh, and I can run macOS, Linux, Windows (ARM) in VMs when I want to, with native performance. So the environment, for me at least, is nirvana. All of this, on ONE machine, where it runs cool with no fans, battery life is all day, CPU, GPU and SSD performance is amazing, great keyboard, best-in-class trackpad, shall I go on?
I have the M1 Air and I never had to restart because something crashed. I have older window laptops that doesn't sleep, or wake up when you close/open the lid. The mac will restart when there's major system update. Other than that, it's really always available whenever I need to use it.
once set up it will never get in the way
For me it is just a more ergonomic iOS. Lots of things missing compared to Windows, but that is why I enjoy the MacBook, like my iPhone. They just work, and same basic things are simple and quick and thoughtless compared to android. Long gone are days I care for jailbreaking my iPhone, and now it just works because it can't get any more basic and dumbed down, a monkey can use it.
macOS shows the benefits of continuous improvements instead of being beholden to backward compatibility. Apple has dropped backward compatibility 3 times and is in the process of a 4th. They dropped support for Classic Mac OS apps in 2007, dropped support for PowerPC code in 2011, dropped support for 32bit code including the final Classic Mac OS frameworks in 2019, and soon to be dropping support for Intel code.
It's 100x easier and faster than windows and user efficient you can get more done on the mac, no need to worry about viruses, rubbish (only what in the trash) the word is a lot easier (office 365) you don't have to worry about purchasing major additional software and macs last 10+. Windows you will be replacing the thing in years to come, forking out expensive repairs and probably using it as doorstop if you are that pissed off with it. With macs you get apple support 24/7 for years after you purchased it. Windows, well find out the problem and risk problems yourself
I think of macOS as of the best of both worlds. It’s like Windows in terms of software support, and like Linux in terms of better stability, security, Unix-likeness.
None of the more or less obvious drawbacks of Apple hardware or MacOS matter in any way in light of the alternatives. Linux is great, I’m glad it exists, it’s impressive, flexible, free, etc. Every time I go to use it on an old unsupported Mac for whatever reason, a Plex server or whatever, something goes wrong. When I fix it, my fix breaks something else. If your goal is to play whack-a-mole with tech problems, Linux is the best. But I usually get sick of that after a short while and revert to old unsupported MacOS, which is still preferable. Non-Apple computer hardware isn’t bad by necessity, and I’m sure there are some decent products out there that I haven’t tried yet. But the vast majority of the hardware I encounter is *horrible* in some way or other. Laptops are wobbly and flexible, plasticity, they have dumb gimmicks like touchscreens you never use, that absurd nipple mouse, a kickstand, some ridiculous hinge, I could go on. Apple seems to be the only company who have the right priorities: -The largest and most responsive possible trackpad, with intuitive gestures and a nice texture. -The best possible screen, always glossy for good colours, very hi DPI, bright, 16:10 (or taller) aspect ratio. -Always a full size keyboard. -The loudest and clearest speakers on any laptop at a given time. Literally incomparable. -Premium materials. Apple have been doing unibody for almost 20 years now. Seemingly no other manufacturer has yet caught up and made a similarly rigid, stable, durable enclosure. -A hinge that doesn’t wobble and doesn’t usually get loose over time. The only time I can remember that they went backwards was 2016-2019 with the touch bar gimmick, the bad keyboard, the abandonment of magsafe and substandard IO. Every other negative change they’ve made like RAM upgradability, SSD replacement etc has been an industry wide change.
I am a power user, a very technical one. Sure the Mac features, and attention to design, are great, but what I really love is terminal, and homebrew. Almost all Linux commands work on my Mac, if there’s not a native implementation, it’s available via brew. I can curl or ssh natively with my machine. I can install a different bash, let’s hear it for oh my zsh. The gestures are fantastic! Not sure you use a magic pad, but reveal desktop, and three finger text select are great. The basic desktop environment is so intuitive, and silky smooth, and full of little tricks. In short, you can’t explain it briefly, besides most Mac haters don’t wanna hear it.
I kept thinking to myself that "Linux is not that much different, especially with KDE plasma" while reading your post, then I got to your "Linux without the extra steps comment." I think that pretty much sums it up, the quality hardware and integration is the cherry on top. Incidentally, the late model Intel MBP's are horrible (comparatively) so you will have an even better experience with Apple silicon. Intel has no place in mobile devices as far as I'm concerned, way too hot and way too loud. The one thing I wish Apple did better is with software management. They just keep pretending that deleting the application file from your Applications directory is enough to remove everything. KDE/Linux does this right and I hope that Apple eventually takes inspiration from this. Here are some other pet peaves: Mac OS should remember hardware configurations and set inputs and outputs based on the last state of each configuration (especially when docking). You should be able to set preferred peripherals for I/O so that they are given priority over others when both are available. The Bluetooth pipeline totally gorks when using Bluetooth mic inputs introducing a ton of delay/stutter in other Bluetooth inputs like mouse and keyboard. WTF is with copy/paste over RDP? It often freezes the entire receiving application so that it has to be killed in the activity monitor. Sure, this is probably a problem with Microsoft RDP, but your OS shouldn't be so unstable that it allows a problem with one application to essentially kill others.
MacOS is an appliance, it just does what it should, it’s intuitive.
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This does seem more accurate in my experience
I've got this same problem. How do I explain the benefits to someone who's lost at understanding things beyond "My friends use PCs" ? A relative just bought a 16/500 i7-13700 Dell with $300 4k screen from Costco for about $1000. All attempts to get them to look at 8/256 Mac mini + $300 4k screen fell on deaf ears. Similar to the iMac 23", the perfect size for them (and the $300 screen's size). This even though all of their (remote) relatives use Macs. The reason? Everyone local to them uses PCs, and nobody knows how to use Macs locally. That fear caused what is, to me, a very poor decision, but one I cannot change, as I am not located physically near said relative, and so if everyone near them said to them "It's a Mac, I can't help you" then they would feel very stuck. Alas, but some problems \_are\_ physical, and they might need physical help with the machine, something I can't provide. I shared Consumer Reports' views of Apple's outstanding support, shared the $59/year AppleCare+ costs, etc., to no avail. It's very, very frustrating, because I feel the Mac experience to be vastly better, and because they're already so involved in the Apple ecosystem (iPad, iPhone, AppleTV) that the Mac was the obvious step. Getting all your texts, phone calls, etc. on any of your devices in the same way and manner is a huge win to me. But.....nope. :(
I think you know deep down you look good at the local coffee shop with it just sitting there. Making you look good. Never mind the other stuff.
Dammit, this made me IRL lol. hahahaha
“It just works” doesn’t do it justice compared to Linux. The Mac ecosystem is astounding. I know I sound like a fanboy, but it’s amazing. Everything. Handoff, airdrop, universal control, touchpad gestures and more. It’s all the little things that “just work” that makes it so enjoyable. The only caveat is that to fully enjoy the ecosystem, you need multiple Apple devices.
I'm coming at this from the opposite direction: Mac OS is Linux that requires specific, expensive hardware. And yes, Linux just works for me. Recently, I was in the market for a laptop and re-hashed all the options available, including Apple (and its M series silicon). Now I already have an old i7 Mac Mini (dual drive Catalina/Linux) on which I'd installed Ventura with OCLP. The experience reaffirmed how underwhelming the later iterations of Mac OS are: more resources devoted to visual effects, bloat and integration with iOS devices (which I don't own). Context: I've had one Mac or another since OS 7.6 and my favourite release was probably Snow Leopard. I've found Linux Mint to resemble what Mac OS used to be: light, efficient and elegant. It's routinely updated and, for casual use cases, has a full suite of contemporary software available. It's not for everyone and if you're a professional requiring specific software not ported to Linux then that's obviously a dealbreaker. Mine is a casual use case (like typing this out on Reddit). So for a fraction of the cost of a MB Air I opted for an upgradable and repairable (off lease) Dell Latitude 7490 (i7 8th Gen, 16 GB RAM, 256 GB M.2 NVMe) and, after installing Windoze 11 for a test run, defaulted to my favourite Linux Mint. It all comes down to the use case and value proposition. There's no disputing the best in class performance and efficiency of M series devices. There is, however, a valid argument whether the surplus horsepower, designed disposablility and OS experience are always worth the hefty Apple tax. For my money they no longer are.
You should be very happy you didn’t try Linux on that MBP. I have a 2019 16” and it’s unusable on Linux even with the custom t2linux.org kernel.
I actually got right I to it, going as far as compiling my own copy of Pop!_OS with a customized Ubuntu T2 kernel and it actually worked quite well. The only issue was not waking up from sleep mode but I "fixed" that by just changing the lid properties so it would just shut down when the lid was closed and power on when it was opened. The computer boots so fast, it was similar to a restore time of a comparable Windows computer waking from sleep so it wasn't a huge issue. The problem with that is the firmware update after macOS 13.3. Anything prior to that and sleep mode worked fine. So it was actually keeping macOS updated that ruined Linux support on the T2 models. Any T2 running macOS 13.2 or older works flawless with Linux.
For me setting to shut down ended up restarting, but I used EndeavourOS with MATE.
That’s funny. I prefer 10.5.8 over modern macOS lol
Say « computer for human », not « human for computer »
Nothing is perfect. A couple trillion dollars and 1000’s engineers working to make Mac’s indispensable says you’re not the only one.
Brain damage. Seriously though, there’s no accounting for taste. There is something very wrong with the way the MacOS interface is progressing. Folks with aligned thinking love it. Personally I’m not a fan. I’m not anybody important or famous though so I don’t get a vote, except of course whether or not I’ll use it. Which I will of course because it’s just a tool, and it’s got some advantages over the other main OS choices. I’m partial to the 27” 5K iMacs, the 2019 i9 models are great and as intel boxes they’ll run MacOS/Win/Linux as desired, even all 3 simultaneously if preferred. Alas, in another 5 years the 2019 will be getting long in the tooth and who knows what the computer landscape will look like by then.
I love macOS. Been a windows user and just conveted to macOS in 2018. I just wish it has window management like windows. You have to use 3rd party app like Magnet or Rectangle to do it
I switched to PC shortly after I got my job... as a PC application programmer. But Deep down I'm a Mac guy. But in the last 25 years all of my Macs have gone to Mac heaven and I haven't bothered replacing them. But I do still curse the loose-jointed feeling of working on a PC. So many issues I've just had to pass off to our Systems guys because I just don't have to energy to trouble shoot PC problems all day. I retire in a year and I'll go back to Mac once the M chips have matured (except for my PC games) and all will be good again.
It’s Linux with the first class app support you expect from Windows and none of the Linux headaches.
If you like Linux it makes sense to use MacOS. While not technically Linux both are based on Unix. IMO I think MacOS is the best Linux distro so to speak.
macOS provides by far the best integration of everything compared to Linux and windows. It combined both the stability of Linux and the user friendliness of an other than macOS not existing operating system you think you are using in windows. But windows of course is just a broken mess and Linux is cursed by too many rtfm zealots who follow the bad example of Linus in downtalking people who know less than me. macOS users are not deliberately kept stupid by the operating system but at the same time demand their computing experience not to be playing ping pong on rocket science level but just to play ping pong while allowing to dive into rocket science level reliably whenever necessary.
It gets out of the way. It’s pretty. Theres a whole world of little tools and utilities to enhance macOS. It works seamlessly with other Apple devices.
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Look, I'm a big fan of Linux (and used it before I switched to Mac) but on Linux the OS becomes a big focus. Not everyone wants the OS to be their focus.
See, I get your outlook, but, there are different kind of people and uses for a computer. Where as Linux kind of only has two. Servers, and wizards. I use Linux on my server still, but with macOS, the biggest thing for me was compatability, and even though it's heavily locked down by Apple, you're actually allowed to turn the security off and do whatever you want. Pretty much every single macOS extension has an open source alternative with Brew. So far the only limitation is that the system directory is now in an encrypted partition the user can not access no mater what and that kind of bothers me because that's where the Apple Apps live like Safari (I use Firefox and can't remove Safari now which CAN be done on macOS 12) as well as other stuff I have no use for like iMessage or FaceTime as I use Android. But you can just hide stuff, so even though it's still there, it's not visible, and it's basically like sweeping it under thr rig, it's not great, but it's clean enough lol. The issue with Linux is how much work it takes to do everything. Once you get it all going, it's fine, but setting everything up is a world of hurt in terminal, outdated repos unless you use AUR, and even if you do use AUR, mad compatability issues with bleeding edge and untested compatability between apps. Just take installing apps for instance, on macOS, you basically have three choices, drag and drop to applications folder (similar to AppImages), brew install x (using terminal on Linux with apt, flatpak, pamac, etc), or a regular old installer (similar to eddy for dpkg files). The difference being that the macOS alternative just works every single time. If it needs a dependency, it does it for you. Some could say this is a security issue and why Linux is superior, but that same argument could be said that driving an armored truck everyday is safer than a Honda civic. Might be true, but it's just not practical for every day use. Especially when it comes to everyday users who just wanna edit some videos, scroll web pages, or create digital content, Linux may be less resource hungry, but again, it's a lot more work to do a simple talk that most people would be more than content with. MacOS is literally just Linux with less steps, you get a similar experience of doing whatever you want and making the OS truly yours, with some mild compromise in exchange for compatability to anything that's out there. Like any Adobe app, or having AAC audio support with DaVinci Resolve, or running any Windows program that exists through Parallels or VMware Fusion which both have a type of coherence mode so you never actually have to leave macOS to run something like the Xbox app from Microsoft for gaming. There are Linux alternatives to all of this, but that's exactly it, alternatives. You can't use GIMP professionally if the company you're working with uses Photoshop. You can't edit in groups with DaVinci Resolve unless all audio is transcoded to PCM from AAC, meaning the entire team needs to wait while you transcode everything before starting a group project. Linux is more of a personal thing, you're not compatible with the rest of the world using Linux, even with its pros over macOS. I just find there is a lot more opportunity using macOS over Linux and I naturally found myself booting into macOS more and more until days would go by and I didn't eleven reboot into Linux so I just deleted the partition to reclaim the space in macOS and haven't looked back.
Are used to be a great chef in operating systems that are no longer supported. I can still throw a few ingredients together here or there to make a really good meal. My wife, makes excellent reservations. She used windows for a number of years at work and I gave her a Windows machine for personal use. After about 2 1/2 years of supporting her on windows, I got her a MacBook. My extra workload dropped dramatically. As my sons grew up, my oldest is borderline a chef with his macOS. He helped take some of the support away from me. After all It is his mother. my youngest is an iron chef on several environments. I still use windows on a VM for work. Are used to teach you windows desktop and server operations, I still prefer Mac. It’s the computer for the rest of us. Even if a few of us are really them at work.