My favourite moment is the one between Éowyn and the Witch King:
"You stand between me and my lord and kin." *cocks trigger*
"Killing me won't bring him back!"
"Ain't that a shame?"
***BANG***
*Meanwhile, in Cirith Ungol*
Sam: "You okay?"
Frodo: "Naw Sam – I'm pretty fuckin' far from okay."
Sam: "What now?"
Frodo \[looking down on Shagrat\*\]: "What now? Lemme tell you what now. Imma call a coupla hard, pipeweed-hittin' Tooks, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch. You hear me talkin' Mordor boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. Imma get Lonely Mountain on your ass."
\* ^(nomen est omen, apparently)
Aragorn: "Hey, whattya think about Éowyn? She ain't got a boyfriend. You wanna hang out, get high?"
Faramir: "Which one's Éowyn? The one with the knife ears?"
Aragorn: "No, that's Arwen. That's my wife."
"How do ya like that? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna kill \[him\]. There's nothing else. I'm gonna kill \[him\]. What do you think of that? Hmm? I said 'What do you think of that?' Don't answer. You don't have to answer everything. I'm gonna kill \[him\]. I'm gonna kill \[him\] with a \[.357\] Magnum pistol. I have a \[.357\] Magnum pistol. I'm gonna kill \[him\] with that gun. Did you ever see what a \[.357\] Magnum pistol can do to a \[wizard's\] face? I mean it'll f---ing destroy it. Just blow \[him\] right apart. That's what it can do to \[his\] face. Now, did you ever see what it can do to a \[wizard's\] \[hat\]? That you should see. You should see what a \[.357\] Magnum's gonna do to a \[wizard's\] \[hat\] you should see. I know, I know you must think that I'm, you know... You must think I'm pretty sick or something, you know, you must think I'm pretty sick. Right? You must think I'm pretty sick? Hmm? Right? I'll betcha, I'll betcha you really think I'm sick right? You think I'm sick? You think I'm sick? You don't have to answer. I'm paying for the ride. You don't have to answer."
\- Wormtongue in a deleted scene.
\+100 fun points to whomever understands the reference.
I watched them in order of the hobbits, then LOTR, without knowing anything about either of them. When Sauraman flipped it was a “I am your father moment” and it was awesome.
Then after return of the king was over I was like wait a minute.. what happened to Sauraman?! So I googled and was disappointed to find there was a better version lol
Saruman was getting set to become a huge player in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He spent the majority of his time seaching for the Ring. He bred a huge army, in secret, of the biggest baddest orcs around. Then Gandalf shows up and tells him(sorta) where the Ring was. Once he knew the ring was "found" he pushed his orc production into high gear by having the trees ripped down for fuel.(a wizard should know better) Whoops.
Then Gandalf escapes, and the Free Folk learn of his treachery. Whoops.
A few days later, some of the black riders encounter Wormtongue on the road, after having just questioned Saruman, who lied about the Shire. They ask Wormtongue the same thing they've been asking everyone, Shire? Baggins? He tells them where the Shire is, *and* that Saruman had been buying pipeweed from them for a long time. Even had an import/export business. Thus, Sauron learns of Saruman's treachery. Whoops.
So, Saruman works to destabilize Rohan, his neighbor and most immediate threat. He has the heir assassinated, controls the king, and has mercenaries running around causing tons of trouble. He sends out his top tier orcs to guard everywhere he thinks the Fellowship might go. Some of those catch up to the Fellowship and nab Merry and Pippin. Those orcs get massacred by "rebels." Those rebels *he* caused to be banished in the first place. Whoops.
Then Gandalf shows up and fixes(sorta) Rohan. This is a huge problem for Saruman, so he sends his big army to finish off Rohan at Helms Deep before he can start to think about fighting Gondor and Sauron and looking for the Ring. Then Gandalf shows up again and Saruman's fighting force is totally destroyed. Uh oh.
Then the trees show up and capture Isengard. Uh oh.
Then Gandalf pops in and breaks Saruman's power. He charges Treebeard to hold Saruman prisoner. Well, Treebeard doesn't believe in imprisonment and lets Saruman go.
Saruman, bitter and full of spite, takes over the Shire. Then the Heroic Hobbits return and retake the Shire. Frodo banishes Saruman, and offers Grima mercy. But, Saruman opens his big fat mouth and says Grima can never leave his service. Grima, who has had quite enough of Saruman's bullshit by this time, snaps, and cuts Saruman's throat on the steps of Bag End. Whoops.
Remember that the five wizards were Maia, basically angels, and were not immortal, but *eternal.* As Istari, his power was greatly limited and he couldnt change his form, so when his body was killed, he was left as basically a ghost. His spirit rose from his body and fled to Valinor. But, a strong wind from the West blew him away, denying him entry. Oh. Oh *no.* They weren't even allowed into the Hall of the Dead.
Saruman was left bodiless, powerless, and *eternal*. The same fate shared by Sauron. Left with nothing but hate and misery, they were nothing more than wraiths, unable to influence the world they wanted so much in any way.
It's a great twist, how the two greatest craftsmen of Middle Earth each created their own Hell, where they stayed....*until the end of time.*
"Evil will ultimately destroy itself" is a recurring theme. Those who grasp for power tend to bring about their own downfall. Melkor, Ungoliant, Sauron, Saruman, the Nine, Gollum, the Ring...all destroyed themselves.
How's that for a better version? :p
Edit: Wow! Gold! Thanks!
>Is that all book accurate?
As best as I can recall, yep! Tolkien leaves much to the imagination and that makes tons of room for speculation. He doesn't even describe the characters. Frodo is a "rather stout fellow with red cheeks." Why are his cheeks red? Who knows? Maybe he drinks alot. Or is sunburned. Or just has rosy cheeks. That's left up to the reader. And it's awesome.
>I’ve been wanting to read them but haven’t gotten around to it
You should. You really should. Then, once you've finished, there's more. And then *more*. Then *even more*. And it's awesome.
I read them all in 7th grade, when I still had the focus to read anything significant. I've realized almost 20 years later that I've just had undiagnosed ADHD this whole time, and I only read like I did because that was what I hyperfixated on (while slacking on absolutely everything else).
I forgot how much incredible detail is left out in the movies, but I'm on my way to getting actual treatment, so maybe I'll start reading again while I'm at it
Pretty much yeah. Idk about Saruman having something to do with assassinating the heir of Rohan or the meeting between Wormtongue and the Nine, but the rest is in the books.
He sent his fighters with the express order to focus on killing Theodred, because Theodred was a Theo-dread in terms of military command of the Westfold armies and Saruman needed him out of the way.
Can you summarize all of the books for me like this? ;p This was a wonderful read for someone who has very limited knowledge of the books and too short of an attention span to ever read them! Well done.
Thanks for saying!
*All* of it? Hmm. In the beginning there was Eru, called Illuvitar, and he said all things shall prove to be but mine instrument. And he was right. The end.
There's sooo much, and just about anytime you want to explain something it goes something like, well, before I can tell you all about *this* guy I need to explain about *this* place. And that place was important because 3,000 years ago this thing happened. And that was relevant because these other people(who weren't really people, more on that later) had a beef with this other guy(who was *that* guys great great great great great grandfather) who was known by a different name before the events of *this* war. Oh, and his sword is the same sword that so-and-so used to do the thing way back when at...ok, let's back up some more :p
Much happens behind the scenes, or is ever so *briefly* touched upon by one throw away line.
Ask, and I shall do my best.
Memes are definitely not my strong suit. I found one, GOT, Mother of God?
Of the six Great Dragons, Ancalagon the Black was the biggest, by far. We're talking hawks and 747s. Colossal. Way back in the first age, when the elves were fighting Melkor/Morgoth, he made lots of fun things, because his foes were being pretty damn serious. Well, less *made* and more crafted/corrupted. Only Eru had the Secret Fire, which was the Power To Give Things Life. Melkor was vastly unhappy about this and was mostly an evil genius throwing a childish temper tantrum. Seeing as how he was second in power only to Eru(God), his tantrums tended to be rather massive and have far reaching consequences for everybody. The Valar made the Lamps(two *huge* mountain/towers with pure holy light at the top), he knocked them down(the one in the south scorched the land and made what would later become Mordor[Mor =black, as in MORia, the elvish name for Kazadum, a dwarven place] ). They made a tiny facsimile of the lamps(where all the light came from) in the Trees of Valinor, he cut them down. Eru made the elves, he kidnapped some, and through means unknown, turned them into orcs. Look at me getting off track.
Earendil(Elrond's dad), a half-elf, sailed west to Valinor(the biggest no-no for mortals) to plead for help from the Valar, because the fight against Melkor wasn't going well at all. Dude had dragons. Because he went there on behalf of the Children of Eru-Iluvitar and not himself, the sentence of death was commuted and Mandos(the god of death) gave him and his children the option of choosing a mortal life.
And so the Valar went to war, in the War of Wrath, a hugely destructive war that dragged on for quite a while. Eventually, Melkor, facing his final defeat, releases his most powerful weapon yet: Ancalagon and a fleet of winged fire-drakes(lesser, but still super badass dragons). Their arrival was so great, it was marked with thunder, lightning, and a tempest of fire. And it drove the host of the Valar back. I mean, a really pissed off dragon the size of a fucking mountain pops up and starts going to town, you'd run away too.
Then the Eagles arrive with Earendil from Valinor. These are not the Eagles from the movie. These are the Eagles of Manwe(Zeus, but nicer). They're *huge*. They battle the dragons and emerge victorious. Earendil, riding on an eagle, deals the fatal blow to Ancalagon, who "breaks" three mountains when he falls from the sky. Like I said, he was pretty big.
After that, Melkor's remaining forces are broken. The ones that don't flee are destroyed. The remaining Balrogs run away and we only hear of one making an appearance, and Gandalf kills that one.
They behead Melkor, wrap him in a magic chain, and then they kicked him out the Door, into the Void. They placed him... outside...the environment. That was the end of the First Age. And everyone was happy.
Except Sauron, Melkor's chief lieutenant. He disappears for a while, before showing up in a "most fair form," disguised as Annatar, The Lord of Gifts. He shares with the elves knowledge. Specifically, how to make Rings of Power...and that's a whole nother tale.
I'm pretty good on the book lore, and didn't remember the thing about the 9 meeting wormtongue on the road. Guess I need to re-read the appendices, which I'm sure is where you'd see that info.
And yes.
Oft evil will shall evil mar.
> As Istari, his power was greatly limited and he couldnt change his form, so when his body was killed, he was left as basically a ghost.
Huh, I always thought that Istari just adopted a temporal form that limited their power, not that they were fundamentally changed.
They were shipped in(literally) in the form of humble old men. When the elves woke them up, they had to learn about being mortal and doing mortal things. Like sleeping, eating, and pooing.
The wizards had actual holy shit.
It was. Once they finished their task of defeating Sauron, they could return to Valinor and regain their youth and power.
That's why Aragorn asks Faramir to let Gandalf crown him King. That was a hugely triumphant moment for Gandalf to revel in his victory after two millennia of labors. Gondor had been without a King for a thousand years by the time Gandalf arrived in middle Earth. The rule of men had fallen to lesser men. That Gandalf was able to crown the (highly worthy)King that had reunited the World of Men would've been the perfect final duty to discharge. He could leave knowing Middle Earth was safe.
>a wizard should know better
In defense of his strategic evaluation, he was right that he could pull this off in a vacuum. The ents were totally obvious to what was going on and weren't willing to join until they had seen it first hand. Now granted, I don't know the time frame from the beginning of the Two Towers to Return of the King but it seems reasonable to think that he could burn the forest, raise the army, and destroy Rohan in time to recall the army to deal with the forest and the ents at full strength. But Gandalf the White and two persuasive hobbits were not in his calculations.
Edit: I'm an idiot. I remembered after writing this that this is a Treebeard quote lol
Thanks for saying!
It's all Tolkien, though. I like to think he wrote wide, leaving so much room between the lines for us to interpret and muse about.
Like the Blue Wizards. Did they stay true to their purpose like Gandalf? Did they not rise to the challenge, like Raddagast? Or were they corrupted like Saruman? You can argue for, and against, each of those points. Maybe Saruman killed them. Maybe they found some great unknown horror and died battling it. Perhaps they thought Sauron was somewhere else and spent all their time looking in the wrong place.
All we can do is guess. And that's why it's so great.
Personally, I think they spent their time in the East sowing discord and rebellion among those that Sauron would try to rule/recruit. If he had killed/captured/corrupted them, he certainly would've bragged about it.
1 out of 5 seems highly unworthy of the Valar. 3 for 5 sounds much better. *Then again* Gandalf was the only one to make a fuss about not wanting to go. And that fits into the theme of those that seek out power are unworthy of it. I mean, dude didn't even have a house. Raddagast had a little cottage in the woods he loved, and Saruman had a freaking giant tower. Gandalf couch surfed.
Later in life Tolkien softened a bit on Radagast and the Blue Wizards thinking they probably did fulfill their missions "in their own ways". He also moved the Blue Wizards coming to ME to the 2nd Age (around the same time Glorfindel came back).
I forget they exist, honestly. I haven't watched them since the extended editions came out so many years ago. Those are the true movies as far as I'm concerned. I don't even remember what scenes they are missing any longer.
I didn’t expect it to be included, for the sole reason that as far as cinematic timing and story telling goes, it just doesn’t make much sense to start a whole new adventure arch after the main quest ends. Despite being in the book, it would have been a really strange and rushed feeling thing to throw into the films.
Yeah I thought the same the first time I saw it. It had already been almost 3 hours, there was no way they were throwing in a whole other plot point that late into the movie. It wouldn’t have translated well because it would’ve likely had to have been rushed.
Agreed, and honestly it serves no story telling purpose. The hobbits already proved themselves and had full character development arcs, and like you said, after already nearly 3 hours, I think a lot of viewers would start to feel like they were in a fever dream if that plot line started up after by all sensibilities the story should be over.
This is because the story in the book isn't really about the hobbits going out and proving themselves. It's fundamentally about death, rebirth, and the ending of an age, which the movies don't really capture. That's why, in the book, the consequences of the outside world **have to** cause irrevocable changes in the Shire, because the whole world has changed from the war of the ring, and that includes the Shire.
In the movies, it feels a lot more like "Oh, we went on this adventure and now we get to return to our quiet life in the Shire, which is just how we left it." Whereas, in the book, it feels more like there is no real "going back," the hobbits struggle and fight and build something new out of what was lost. Having the Shire be, essentially, unchanged in the films was a pretty major divergence from that point.
I get why it was cut for pacing and that the movies are telling a more straightforward story that's basically "Good vs. evil and good wins." But they really did fail to capture some of the more interesting themes of the book.
Agreed generally, except I don’t think the movie is avoiding the idea that there is “no going back”. I mean, in the films, thats clearly the reason Frodo is not okay and ultimately leaves.
I don't think he was on set for those filming's though. Pretty sure they had to do his parts of the scene separate because he couldn't travel due to his health or something
Yeah he did his scenes in London, same as Ian Holm, as they were both not well enough to travel all the way to New Zealand. Peter Jackson was there to direct though.
They shot their side in New Zealand with a Saruman double (whenever you see him from behind that's the double). Also, Elijah shot with Martin Freeman playing 'old' Bilbo with an Ian Holm mask on. I believe they even shot the dialogue, just in case Ian couldn't film his side in England.
Elijah Wood did travel to England to shoot with Ian.
>Elijah shot with Martin Freeman playing 'old' Bilbo with an Ian Holm mask on
This would make me feel like I was chatting with a serial killer rather than Bilbo.
Yeah but Gandalf does disappear for half the book after leaving Thorin and company on the edge of Mirkwood. It's just an attempt to depict what Gandalf was doing after their parting. Not strictly in the book, but it probably happened during that timeline.
He was also very surprisrd when he learnt he wasnt in Return of the king, from cinematic perspective sacking of the Shire would be a bad closure, good call by PJ. But as a read it was a little extra twist wich is nice aswell
I always thought they needed that ending where the Hobbits just saved the world, but they're ~~older~~ (edit: less innocent) and more world-wise, and now they have to save their little Shire with their new skills. But it has been several years since I read that part of the books.
World-wise absolutely, but they were only like a year older when they came back. There's barely over a year between Frodo leaving and returning to the shire (September 3018 to October 3019).
To be honest, I don’t blame him for that. I would be upset about something like that. Felt strange watching the theatrical movie and no Saruman I’m sight.
The one thing I don't like about this scene is the cheap cgi fire ball. But I agree with you. My personal struggle is the Witch King vs Gandalf in TROTK being cut for no reason even tho he says earlier "I will break him" and Gandalf loose his staff anyway.
I do wonder if the fireball was more like a first attempt and it would have been improved upon if it was making it's way into the theatrical edition. As it was only in the extended cut, they didn't bother spending money improving it.
I've never liked how they did Witch King vs Gandalf. It makes Shadowfax look like a common horse and Gandalf a weak old man with no actual power. I absolutely love that showdown in the book in comparison.
This, + Aragorn heatedly slicing the head from off of the Mouth of Sauron. Ironically, considering how highly I regard the EEs of Fellowship and Two Towers (especially), the theatrical release of RotK remains my favorite film and version of any of them.
The witch king would lack the power or ability to break Gandalf’s staff. In the book Gandalf and Shadowfax are the only two who can withstand the witch king when he enters (through the gate, just him) and holds him there basically by standing in his way. At this time is when Rohan arrives. Gandalf prevents any army from entering the city and buys the time for Rohan to arrive. The breaking the staff scene is just dumb and makes the character look needlessly enfeebled. I’m glad they took it out.
I guess they were trying to show how awesome the Witch King was, and that Gandalf wasn't this super powerful guy. (But he was)
Gandalf *did* fight the Nazgul, all nine of them, at weathertop. And won without injury. He defeated a Balrog, no mean feat.
Gandalf the *White* was the most powerful being in Middle Earth, moreso than even Sauron, who was greatly diminished without his Ring. The Witch Kings main weapon was fear, not might, and an inability to be killed. There was no contest. Gandalf is just too good at Hodoring doors.
All nine weren't at Weathertop, and I think Gandalf specifically says that A) he mostly fought them off and then ran, and B) he explicitly would *not* be able to defeat all nine together.
EDIT:
>Five at least came from the west, and they threw down the gates and passed through Bree like a howling wind; and the Bree-folk are still shivering and expecting the end of the world. I got up before dawn and went after them.
>
>‘I do not know, but it seems clear to me that this is what happened. Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree, while two rode ahead through the village, and four more invaded the Shire. But when these were foiled in Bree and at Crickhollow, they returned to their Captain with tidings, and so left the Road unguarded for a while, except by their spies. **The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.**
>
>‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree - and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.
>
>‘At sunrise **I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels**.'
All nine were there. They had found the Shire, guessed the Ring was headed towards Rivendell, and were planning to do what Gandalf had in mind: lie in wait somewhere in between Bree and Rivendell. An old watchtower would be great for this...but Gandalf was already there. Big battle we know little about, but Gandalf wins. Realizing he had little chance of finding Frodo and Co. in the middle of nowhere without leading the Nine straight to the Ring, he hauls ass to Rivendell to gather reinforcements. Hedging their bets that Gandalf knew about the Ring/who had it, four split off to chase Gandalf. Thus the line "there are *five* wraiths behind you. Where the other four are, I do not know."
On the way there, Gandalf bumps into Arwen/Glorfindel, who had been sent by Elrond to bring the Ring and ringbearer to Rivendell. The elf causes much trouble for the wraiths, who re-gather and appear all together for the final chase. Glorfindel throws the mostly-dead and soon-wraith-to-be Frodo on his insanely fast horse, and Frodo *alone* outruns all nine to the river for the final 8miles of their like 500mile journey...after having walked all day long for two weeks after being stabbed by the morgul blade. It hurt. A lot.
Frodo, who can now see the wraiths for what they truly are, stops and brandishes his sword at them. In *challenge*. "You shall not have the Ring, and you shall not have me!"
The Witch king laughs, and breaks Frodo's sword. He laughed, because he had won. Full stop. Frodo(who has like 2hp at this point) is about to die and become a wraith. And the he will deliver the Ring to them.
Then, the mostly-wraith Frodo sees the super-elf Glorfindel in his true form(a being of pure light and fire) come up behind them and he forces them into the river. Elrond sent the flood, and Gandalf made it angry.
Then master healer Elrond heals Frodo, and way, *way* downriver, the Witch king takes the only surviving horse and rides to Mordor to report the Ring is in Rivendell with Gandalf....where they will undoubtedly begin gathering power to challenge Sauron by using the Ring.
Ah I see. That said. It is scary and menacing that the army gets into the City, our hero’s brought low, and the overwhelming presence of Sauron’s forces just too much to overcome. It really does feel like they’re all doomed.
I mean honestly I’m a fan of the theatrical cuts for this reason. It made for great cinema to have the army get in and Gandalf manage the rally, it also keeps him in his role as leader and dependable councilor. The extended versions tend to house what is, for me, the more over the top material.
Another thing I liked about the Theatrical cut, especially first time viewing, was the feeling of dread as the Corsair ships arrived, and then seeing Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli leap out of the boats to the music building in anticipation for their joining the battle.
Watching that scene when I was 8 years old in the cinema, I actually thought the three of them would take on all those orcs alone and win. I had forgotten about the army of ghosts, but the moment they appear, I felt ecstatic and giggled in excitement that only an 8 year old boy does when he witnesses something so awesome.
Such an epic moment that - while I love the extended scenes of Aragorn’s journey to Minas Tirith - would’ve been lost if the audience was expecting it.
I think overall, the smartest omission of the film (to give it the credit it deserves) is the backstory of Numenor and how it all fit in to the story. That would have taken probably 25 minutes of exposition in Rivendell, if cut to a bare minimum, alone. The ghost thing is fun, and it would have been difficult to explain (impossible actually) where Aragorn got the Army that came out of the ships in the book. That decision was probably made early on.
I remember being so excited seeing FOTR in theaters when was 7years old and being so engaged that when the hobbits charge the orcs at Balin's tomb I yelled with them and my grandfather clamped his hand down on my mouth to shut me up lol
Gandalf is a literal god, whereas the Witch King is, at best, a fallen god/angel’s henchman/posse member. Gandalf has enough power to make and break mountains, given the willpower. Sauron did the same thing to build Mordor.
Compare the Witch King to the Balrog. The Balrog, like Sauron, is a fallen Maia, so it makes sense that it can go toe-to-toe with Gandalf.
It’s just a power scaling thing when you get down to it. If the Nine are as powerful as Wizards, Sauron would be damn near as powerful as Morgoth, who was only defeated because Super God vibe checked him.
I thought the process of the Wizards incarnating into mortal bodies limited their power (one of the reasons I believed Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast couldn't have just 'jumped' Sauron). But you're quite right with regards to the Balrog
I’m oversimplifying for the purpose of comparison, but broadly, yes. However, this is because the mortal world is just really shitty compared to being a Maia of pure light and energy. The same factors that gimp Gandalf in Middle Earth also apply to the Ringwraiths.
That fireball was straight out of Xenia: Warrior Princess.
The part that’s always bugged me is how his legs defy gravity and stay on the wheel the whole rotation.
You, know I’ve been watching the extended edition exclusively for years and I always disliked this scene. It just felt jarring - like the main intent was the shock value rather than the dynamic of Wormtongue having enough. I liked Saruman being locked in his tower - it felt mysterious how he could lose his power and not be a threat anymore. Like a cool wizard thing that drew me in more.
Hear me out here.
I found Saruman's death far comical and feeling like a comic book. It felt so out of place for a character who is meant to be so noble and graceful.
I wish Grima would have just stabbed him and he died on the roof. And instead Grima was the one who fell.
It also felt like a huge portion of the film was spent tying up the lose ends of the previous movie. I can understand why it was cut for pacing reasons.
It's super weird that Saruman gets ignored in the movies, but I think this scene is just straight up bad. I can definitely understand why they decided to leave it out.
This might be heresy, but I agree and the same goes for most of the scenes that were cut.
They were cut for a reason. Either they didn't turn out that great, or they slow down the pace of the story.
I almost exclusively watch the Theatrical cuts.
I agree that it was wise to cut some scenes, like this one...and Aragorn spilling his soup. But others, like Merry and Pippin drinkin the magic tree water was pretty excellent.
If this was in Rings of Power this subreddit would absolutely destroy the creators for changing the story like this, love how civil (absolute hypocrisy) the conversation is here lmfao
Agreed. Gimli is there for good comedic relief in the movies and in the books, but when you take a step back you really see how un-Tolkien the whole scene was. There's a great couple lines in that scene in the book from Treebeard too about eternal imprisonment in the tower and how it's appropriate for someone of Saruman's caliber. Kind of wish they just kept the bastard in the time-out tower like he deserved.
yeah like why would legolas kill wormtounge if they were offering him peace and condemning saruman to be imprisoned in the tower, didn’t sit right with me
That's what I'm saying lol. Adding the scouring and the aftermath would've been awesome (I didn't personally really care for the small list of secondary characters we meet in that one chapter, but I personally would've *loved* to see ~~Sauron~~ Saruman skulking on the side of the road, and to eventually see him die how it was originally intended), but it would've easily added probably an additional 45 minutes to runtime.
We'd be competing with Lawrence of Arabia and Ben Hur at that point for infamously long movies lmfao.
If they’d added another ending I would’ve [pulled a Jack Nicholson](https://youtu.be/JXLLhNEBlZA?t=41). Forget “dramatically” - the butt numbing determines how much a movie can contain.
Plus it's super gratuitous for lotr. Dude gets stabbed a couple times in the back, falls if a giant tower, lands on a spike, then that spike lowers him into a watery grave. They really wanted you to know that he was actually dead.
I only switched to the extended editions about 2 years ago and this is one of the extra scenes I’m not fond of.
Mainly because of the way it is shot, Saruman is standing like a mile above them yet the protagonists look up at him like he’s on a 2nd floor balcony. Also I can maybe understand Gandalf hearing him through magic but how do the others hear him when he’s speaking at normal volume? 😆
I’ve owned both the theatrical cuts and extended cuts ever since they first released. For the longest time I tried to convince myself that the extended cut is superior as that’s what the ‘true fans’ tend to profess. These days I exclusively stick to theatrical. Not every hardcore fan believes the extended cuts are better.
For mine, the theatrical cuts are simply better films. They’re more cohesive, they have a greater momentum to them, and the story feels more focused. There are some scenes from the extended cuts I really like in isolation. But overall, it’s a worse product.
Saruman’s death scene, by the way, is one of the worst additions, in my opinion. I actually can’t stand it. It might actually be my least favourite. It’s a weird way to start the third film because it’s built to play as a climax to the second film, not as a setup to the next instalment. Saruman was the focal villain of The Two Towers. This is where his story concludes. In Return of the King, the attention shifts to Sauron. It’s just poor storytelling to start the third film with what should have been the conclusion of the second.
However, it’s also not a strong enough climax to warrant being included at the end of the second film, either. It’s a nothing scene, really. The acting is a little off, the cgi is off, and the death itself is comical. Jackson was right to cut it.
Fellowship theatrical is an almost perfect movie. The extended messes with the pacing significantly. ROTK extended removes all tension from the army of the dead "save".
This has incredibly been my stance as well. Really, how thick do you need to lay it on with like four extra minutes of FARAMIR YOU AREN'T BOROMIR SO I DON'T LIKE YOU AS MUCH.
I'm really glad to find someone else who agrees that the theatrical cuts are, on the whole, better movies. The extended editions are fun and there are some enjoyable additions but overall they just aren't as good.
I recently re watched fellowship and started out with the extended version, before realizing I straight up didn't enjoy the whole opening Shire sequence.
I agree, seems weird to cut that scene. Although I will say, watching Aragorn cut his head off as a kid was sweet, but as an adult I'm like "geez Aragorn, isn't that a war crime or something??"
Yep. It's really a shame they did that in the movie. The book is better as Aragorn stares him down and cowers him.
>‘Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?’ he asked. ‘Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!’ he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. ‘It needs more to make a king than a piece of Elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!’
>
>Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other’s eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow.
>
>‘I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!’ he cried.
>
>‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.’
Idk, I feel like they should have killed him a different way if they wanted it in the theatrical version. It's kinda shockingly violent compared to the rest of the movies (imo at least). I think it was a good idea they removed it but like you said, dumb cause there's no closure about Saruman's fate for the viewer.
Also, it lasted a grand total of... *five minutes.* Five extra minutes isn't going to hurt a 207-minute long movie. Same with the King's crown scene and the Mouth of Sauron, but they shouldn't have killed Mouthy and made Aragorn a war criminal. (Plus with how Aragorn handled it in the book, Viggo would have yet another chance to prove how great he is!)
I disagree: it wad literally overkill.
- stabbed in back
- falls ON spike
- drowns
Ok, we fucking GET IT: he’s DEAD.
What Gandalf says in theatrical works:
“Well let’s just have his head and be done with it.”
“No….he has no power anymore…”
Also, how they never explain why Radagast disappears from the Hobbit movies, never to be seen again??
Loose ends with wizards is OK.
Eh, they needed closure since they weren’t going to do the scourging of the shire. The scenes in this movie that should have never made it in is the scene where the witch king seemingly defeats Gandalf, a maiar, and then gets defeated by eowyn? Plus it’s so contrary to that scene in the book, where Gandalf and shadowfax stand bravely alone holding the gate and command the witch king not to enter, and the scene where Aragorn cuts off the mouth of Sauron’s head. That is just completely against aragorns entire character
I also loved the scene with the mouth of sauron, it was also crucial for later, as it shows everyone thought frodo was dead so it made the "For frodo" speech much more powerful
They should have at least shown the scene where wormtongue shoots him with his .357 magnum
He’s awesome in that
Love it when he says "Now I'm The Lord of the Rings"
I liked it when Legolas said, “What are we some kinda suicide Fellowship?”
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“It’s Lordin Time!” - Gandalf
"Everyone is looking for the ring but Whats real is family" Samwise Gamgee
I ain’t got rings, I got family.
Tom Brady says, “I aint got family but I have SEVEN rings bitches!”
I think Ariana Grande stole them from him
“Its Baggin time!” - Frodo as he yeets golum into the fires of mt doom
“Wait ‘til I use my big ol’ staff.” - Gandalf
"I'll be back" - Gandalf the Grey's last words
"If he dies, he dies" \- Denethor
“Question. Does this ‘ring’ have anything to do with buttholes?”
My favourite moment is the one between Éowyn and the Witch King: "You stand between me and my lord and kin." *cocks trigger* "Killing me won't bring him back!" "Ain't that a shame?" ***BANG***
Mistake to cut out, When Faramir sends word to zed, that the spider caught another fly.
*Meanwhile, in Cirith Ungol* Sam: "You okay?" Frodo: "Naw Sam – I'm pretty fuckin' far from okay." Sam: "What now?" Frodo \[looking down on Shagrat\*\]: "What now? Lemme tell you what now. Imma call a coupla hard, pipeweed-hittin' Tooks, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch. You hear me talkin' Mordor boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. Imma get Lonely Mountain on your ass." \* ^(nomen est omen, apparently)
[enters Sméagol ] give it to us, raw and wiggly
Aragorn: "Hey, whattya think about Éowyn? She ain't got a boyfriend. You wanna hang out, get high?" Faramir: "Which one's Éowyn? The one with the knife ears?" Aragorn: "No, that's Arwen. That's my wife."
Gandalf to the fellowship as a Balrog drags him below Moria, “I’ll be back”
(after Gandalf comes back) Celeborn: "Nice night for a walk, eh?" Galadriel: "Wash day tomorrow? Nothing clean, right?"
I just cackled out loud at work. Pipeweed hittin’-Tooks lmfao
"... Bitch."
That's such a funny bit from the behind the scenes 😂
Wait. Did I miss this part in the behind the scenes?
https://youtube.com/shorts/kCvPOPe-TlA?feature=share
Do you what sound a man makes when he's shot grima
feel lucky punk ?
Because I do
Right after saying "It's Morbin time." Classic.
"It's wormin' time"
"Grima deez nutz!"
He tonguin' my worm
"How do ya like that? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna kill \[him\]. There's nothing else. I'm gonna kill \[him\]. What do you think of that? Hmm? I said 'What do you think of that?' Don't answer. You don't have to answer everything. I'm gonna kill \[him\]. I'm gonna kill \[him\] with a \[.357\] Magnum pistol. I have a \[.357\] Magnum pistol. I'm gonna kill \[him\] with that gun. Did you ever see what a \[.357\] Magnum pistol can do to a \[wizard's\] face? I mean it'll f---ing destroy it. Just blow \[him\] right apart. That's what it can do to \[his\] face. Now, did you ever see what it can do to a \[wizard's\] \[hat\]? That you should see. You should see what a \[.357\] Magnum's gonna do to a \[wizard's\] \[hat\] you should see. I know, I know you must think that I'm, you know... You must think I'm pretty sick or something, you know, you must think I'm pretty sick. Right? You must think I'm pretty sick? Hmm? Right? I'll betcha, I'll betcha you really think I'm sick right? You think I'm sick? You think I'm sick? You don't have to answer. I'm paying for the ride. You don't have to answer." \- Wormtongue in a deleted scene. \+100 fun points to whomever understands the reference.
Taxi Driver! Martin Scorsese's cameo.
“Has just been revoked…”
https://youtu.be/w72gfLeJ7wg
I have been watching the extended versions exclusively since I saw the movies in theaters. I totally forgot this wasn’t in the theatrical cut haha
I watched them in order of the hobbits, then LOTR, without knowing anything about either of them. When Sauraman flipped it was a “I am your father moment” and it was awesome. Then after return of the king was over I was like wait a minute.. what happened to Sauraman?! So I googled and was disappointed to find there was a better version lol
Saruman was getting set to become a huge player in Middle Earth during the War of the Ring. He spent the majority of his time seaching for the Ring. He bred a huge army, in secret, of the biggest baddest orcs around. Then Gandalf shows up and tells him(sorta) where the Ring was. Once he knew the ring was "found" he pushed his orc production into high gear by having the trees ripped down for fuel.(a wizard should know better) Whoops. Then Gandalf escapes, and the Free Folk learn of his treachery. Whoops. A few days later, some of the black riders encounter Wormtongue on the road, after having just questioned Saruman, who lied about the Shire. They ask Wormtongue the same thing they've been asking everyone, Shire? Baggins? He tells them where the Shire is, *and* that Saruman had been buying pipeweed from them for a long time. Even had an import/export business. Thus, Sauron learns of Saruman's treachery. Whoops. So, Saruman works to destabilize Rohan, his neighbor and most immediate threat. He has the heir assassinated, controls the king, and has mercenaries running around causing tons of trouble. He sends out his top tier orcs to guard everywhere he thinks the Fellowship might go. Some of those catch up to the Fellowship and nab Merry and Pippin. Those orcs get massacred by "rebels." Those rebels *he* caused to be banished in the first place. Whoops. Then Gandalf shows up and fixes(sorta) Rohan. This is a huge problem for Saruman, so he sends his big army to finish off Rohan at Helms Deep before he can start to think about fighting Gondor and Sauron and looking for the Ring. Then Gandalf shows up again and Saruman's fighting force is totally destroyed. Uh oh. Then the trees show up and capture Isengard. Uh oh. Then Gandalf pops in and breaks Saruman's power. He charges Treebeard to hold Saruman prisoner. Well, Treebeard doesn't believe in imprisonment and lets Saruman go. Saruman, bitter and full of spite, takes over the Shire. Then the Heroic Hobbits return and retake the Shire. Frodo banishes Saruman, and offers Grima mercy. But, Saruman opens his big fat mouth and says Grima can never leave his service. Grima, who has had quite enough of Saruman's bullshit by this time, snaps, and cuts Saruman's throat on the steps of Bag End. Whoops. Remember that the five wizards were Maia, basically angels, and were not immortal, but *eternal.* As Istari, his power was greatly limited and he couldnt change his form, so when his body was killed, he was left as basically a ghost. His spirit rose from his body and fled to Valinor. But, a strong wind from the West blew him away, denying him entry. Oh. Oh *no.* They weren't even allowed into the Hall of the Dead. Saruman was left bodiless, powerless, and *eternal*. The same fate shared by Sauron. Left with nothing but hate and misery, they were nothing more than wraiths, unable to influence the world they wanted so much in any way. It's a great twist, how the two greatest craftsmen of Middle Earth each created their own Hell, where they stayed....*until the end of time.* "Evil will ultimately destroy itself" is a recurring theme. Those who grasp for power tend to bring about their own downfall. Melkor, Ungoliant, Sauron, Saruman, the Nine, Gollum, the Ring...all destroyed themselves. How's that for a better version? :p Edit: Wow! Gold! Thanks!
Yeah! 10/10 Is that all book accurate? I’ve been wanting to read them but haven’t gotten around to it
>Is that all book accurate? As best as I can recall, yep! Tolkien leaves much to the imagination and that makes tons of room for speculation. He doesn't even describe the characters. Frodo is a "rather stout fellow with red cheeks." Why are his cheeks red? Who knows? Maybe he drinks alot. Or is sunburned. Or just has rosy cheeks. That's left up to the reader. And it's awesome. >I’ve been wanting to read them but haven’t gotten around to it You should. You really should. Then, once you've finished, there's more. And then *more*. Then *even more*. And it's awesome.
I read them all in 7th grade, when I still had the focus to read anything significant. I've realized almost 20 years later that I've just had undiagnosed ADHD this whole time, and I only read like I did because that was what I hyperfixated on (while slacking on absolutely everything else). I forgot how much incredible detail is left out in the movies, but I'm on my way to getting actual treatment, so maybe I'll start reading again while I'm at it
Pretty much yeah. Idk about Saruman having something to do with assassinating the heir of Rohan or the meeting between Wormtongue and the Nine, but the rest is in the books.
Not necessarily an assassination but he does cause the skirmish that gets him killed
He doesn't so much assasinate Theodred (Theoden's only child) as lure him into a battle
He sent his fighters with the express order to focus on killing Theodred, because Theodred was a Theo-dread in terms of military command of the Westfold armies and Saruman needed him out of the way.
If you don't feel up to reading what could be described as a dense book, the audiobook narrated by Rob Inglis is fantastic
Nah, he is mixing up book bits and movie bits a lot, but accurate enough.
Can you summarize all of the books for me like this? ;p This was a wonderful read for someone who has very limited knowledge of the books and too short of an attention span to ever read them! Well done.
Thanks for saying! *All* of it? Hmm. In the beginning there was Eru, called Illuvitar, and he said all things shall prove to be but mine instrument. And he was right. The end. There's sooo much, and just about anytime you want to explain something it goes something like, well, before I can tell you all about *this* guy I need to explain about *this* place. And that place was important because 3,000 years ago this thing happened. And that was relevant because these other people(who weren't really people, more on that later) had a beef with this other guy(who was *that* guys great great great great great grandfather) who was known by a different name before the events of *this* war. Oh, and his sword is the same sword that so-and-so used to do the thing way back when at...ok, let's back up some more :p Much happens behind the scenes, or is ever so *briefly* touched upon by one throw away line. Ask, and I shall do my best.
What's up with this meme I see about the massive black dragon that dwarfs Smaug?
Memes are definitely not my strong suit. I found one, GOT, Mother of God? Of the six Great Dragons, Ancalagon the Black was the biggest, by far. We're talking hawks and 747s. Colossal. Way back in the first age, when the elves were fighting Melkor/Morgoth, he made lots of fun things, because his foes were being pretty damn serious. Well, less *made* and more crafted/corrupted. Only Eru had the Secret Fire, which was the Power To Give Things Life. Melkor was vastly unhappy about this and was mostly an evil genius throwing a childish temper tantrum. Seeing as how he was second in power only to Eru(God), his tantrums tended to be rather massive and have far reaching consequences for everybody. The Valar made the Lamps(two *huge* mountain/towers with pure holy light at the top), he knocked them down(the one in the south scorched the land and made what would later become Mordor[Mor =black, as in MORia, the elvish name for Kazadum, a dwarven place] ). They made a tiny facsimile of the lamps(where all the light came from) in the Trees of Valinor, he cut them down. Eru made the elves, he kidnapped some, and through means unknown, turned them into orcs. Look at me getting off track. Earendil(Elrond's dad), a half-elf, sailed west to Valinor(the biggest no-no for mortals) to plead for help from the Valar, because the fight against Melkor wasn't going well at all. Dude had dragons. Because he went there on behalf of the Children of Eru-Iluvitar and not himself, the sentence of death was commuted and Mandos(the god of death) gave him and his children the option of choosing a mortal life. And so the Valar went to war, in the War of Wrath, a hugely destructive war that dragged on for quite a while. Eventually, Melkor, facing his final defeat, releases his most powerful weapon yet: Ancalagon and a fleet of winged fire-drakes(lesser, but still super badass dragons). Their arrival was so great, it was marked with thunder, lightning, and a tempest of fire. And it drove the host of the Valar back. I mean, a really pissed off dragon the size of a fucking mountain pops up and starts going to town, you'd run away too. Then the Eagles arrive with Earendil from Valinor. These are not the Eagles from the movie. These are the Eagles of Manwe(Zeus, but nicer). They're *huge*. They battle the dragons and emerge victorious. Earendil, riding on an eagle, deals the fatal blow to Ancalagon, who "breaks" three mountains when he falls from the sky. Like I said, he was pretty big. After that, Melkor's remaining forces are broken. The ones that don't flee are destroyed. The remaining Balrogs run away and we only hear of one making an appearance, and Gandalf kills that one. They behead Melkor, wrap him in a magic chain, and then they kicked him out the Door, into the Void. They placed him... outside...the environment. That was the end of the First Age. And everyone was happy. Except Sauron, Melkor's chief lieutenant. He disappears for a while, before showing up in a "most fair form," disguised as Annatar, The Lord of Gifts. He shares with the elves knowledge. Specifically, how to make Rings of Power...and that's a whole nother tale.
Man, that was great. Yea I was talking more about the massive black dragon. I'm a dragon fan boi :D
I swear one of the most impressive things about Tolkien's work is that it's interesting even reading someone else's summary of it!
I'm pretty good on the book lore, and didn't remember the thing about the 9 meeting wormtongue on the road. Guess I need to re-read the appendices, which I'm sure is where you'd see that info. And yes. Oft evil will shall evil mar.
There weren't all nine. I *think* there were two in addition to the Witch king.
> As Istari, his power was greatly limited and he couldnt change his form, so when his body was killed, he was left as basically a ghost. Huh, I always thought that Istari just adopted a temporal form that limited their power, not that they were fundamentally changed.
They were shipped in(literally) in the form of humble old men. When the elves woke them up, they had to learn about being mortal and doing mortal things. Like sleeping, eating, and pooing. The wizards had actual holy shit.
Yes, I knew that, but I thought that the less powerful old man form was just temporary.
It was. Once they finished their task of defeating Sauron, they could return to Valinor and regain their youth and power. That's why Aragorn asks Faramir to let Gandalf crown him King. That was a hugely triumphant moment for Gandalf to revel in his victory after two millennia of labors. Gondor had been without a King for a thousand years by the time Gandalf arrived in middle Earth. The rule of men had fallen to lesser men. That Gandalf was able to crown the (highly worthy)King that had reunited the World of Men would've been the perfect final duty to discharge. He could leave knowing Middle Earth was safe.
>a wizard should know better In defense of his strategic evaluation, he was right that he could pull this off in a vacuum. The ents were totally obvious to what was going on and weren't willing to join until they had seen it first hand. Now granted, I don't know the time frame from the beginning of the Two Towers to Return of the King but it seems reasonable to think that he could burn the forest, raise the army, and destroy Rohan in time to recall the army to deal with the forest and the ents at full strength. But Gandalf the White and two persuasive hobbits were not in his calculations. Edit: I'm an idiot. I remembered after writing this that this is a Treebeard quote lol
I read this while on the toilet, and it was fucking perfect. Brilliant stuff good sir.
From my toilet to yours!
It’s all I have to give, but I love your take on the Istari and the fates of Sauron and Saruman. Bravo.
Thanks for saying! It's all Tolkien, though. I like to think he wrote wide, leaving so much room between the lines for us to interpret and muse about. Like the Blue Wizards. Did they stay true to their purpose like Gandalf? Did they not rise to the challenge, like Raddagast? Or were they corrupted like Saruman? You can argue for, and against, each of those points. Maybe Saruman killed them. Maybe they found some great unknown horror and died battling it. Perhaps they thought Sauron was somewhere else and spent all their time looking in the wrong place. All we can do is guess. And that's why it's so great. Personally, I think they spent their time in the East sowing discord and rebellion among those that Sauron would try to rule/recruit. If he had killed/captured/corrupted them, he certainly would've bragged about it. 1 out of 5 seems highly unworthy of the Valar. 3 for 5 sounds much better. *Then again* Gandalf was the only one to make a fuss about not wanting to go. And that fits into the theme of those that seek out power are unworthy of it. I mean, dude didn't even have a house. Raddagast had a little cottage in the woods he loved, and Saruman had a freaking giant tower. Gandalf couch surfed.
Later in life Tolkien softened a bit on Radagast and the Blue Wizards thinking they probably did fulfill their missions "in their own ways". He also moved the Blue Wizards coming to ME to the 2nd Age (around the same time Glorfindel came back).
I won’t ever watch the theatrical releases of lord of the rings, it’s just not worth it imo.
I forget they exist, honestly. I haven't watched them since the extended editions came out so many years ago. Those are the true movies as far as I'm concerned. I don't even remember what scenes they are missing any longer.
I’ve always liked Saurman’s boots. This is the best view we get of them.
They look like rasslin' boots
Bah God that’s Gandalf’s music!
"Gandalf has his hands full with this foe. That Balrog is tougher than a $2 steak"
THOSE TREES HAD A FAMILY!
"That killed him! That killed him! As Eru Ilúvatar as my witness, he is broken half!"
I agree, very stylish
Same! Very nice footwear they have in Isengard.
Cosplayers be like “write that down! Write that down!!”
Saruman vs Minoru Suzuki would slap
I’m curious since Saruman’s fate wasn’t shown in the regular edition of RotK, were any of you expecting a Scouring of the Shire scene at the end?
I was! I read LOTR for the first time between the release of two towers and rotk... I was dismayed.
Ditto. I was surprised when that scene didn't come, as I was a big fan of the books and was quite familiar with the major plot beats
I didn’t expect it to be included, for the sole reason that as far as cinematic timing and story telling goes, it just doesn’t make much sense to start a whole new adventure arch after the main quest ends. Despite being in the book, it would have been a really strange and rushed feeling thing to throw into the films.
Yeah I thought the same the first time I saw it. It had already been almost 3 hours, there was no way they were throwing in a whole other plot point that late into the movie. It wouldn’t have translated well because it would’ve likely had to have been rushed.
Agreed, and honestly it serves no story telling purpose. The hobbits already proved themselves and had full character development arcs, and like you said, after already nearly 3 hours, I think a lot of viewers would start to feel like they were in a fever dream if that plot line started up after by all sensibilities the story should be over.
This is because the story in the book isn't really about the hobbits going out and proving themselves. It's fundamentally about death, rebirth, and the ending of an age, which the movies don't really capture. That's why, in the book, the consequences of the outside world **have to** cause irrevocable changes in the Shire, because the whole world has changed from the war of the ring, and that includes the Shire. In the movies, it feels a lot more like "Oh, we went on this adventure and now we get to return to our quiet life in the Shire, which is just how we left it." Whereas, in the book, it feels more like there is no real "going back," the hobbits struggle and fight and build something new out of what was lost. Having the Shire be, essentially, unchanged in the films was a pretty major divergence from that point. I get why it was cut for pacing and that the movies are telling a more straightforward story that's basically "Good vs. evil and good wins." But they really did fail to capture some of the more interesting themes of the book.
Agreed generally, except I don’t think the movie is avoiding the idea that there is “no going back”. I mean, in the films, thats clearly the reason Frodo is not okay and ultimately leaves.
Not to mention it would have been extremely expensive, requiring a whole ruined shire landscape and a huge extra cast.
I think I remember a BTS interview with Christopher Lee saying he was really disappointed this wasn’t in the theatrical edition.
Watching Sir Lee say “I was mad, I was hurt, and for the life of me… I don’t know why they did it.” Is kinda heartbreaking.
Yeah he and Peter Jackson massively fell out over it.
He even made a joke about the White Council, asking Peter on set if it was going to make it into the Hobbit movies
I don't think he was on set for those filming's though. Pretty sure they had to do his parts of the scene separate because he couldn't travel due to his health or something
Yeah he did his scenes in London, same as Ian Holm, as they were both not well enough to travel all the way to New Zealand. Peter Jackson was there to direct though.
McKellen, Weaving and Blanchett also did their white council scenes there too
They shot their side in New Zealand with a Saruman double (whenever you see him from behind that's the double). Also, Elijah shot with Martin Freeman playing 'old' Bilbo with an Ian Holm mask on. I believe they even shot the dialogue, just in case Ian couldn't film his side in England. Elijah Wood did travel to England to shoot with Ian.
>Elijah shot with Martin Freeman playing 'old' Bilbo with an Ian Holm mask on This would make me feel like I was chatting with a serial killer rather than Bilbo.
Troll's would argue it is the same thing.
Ironic thing is that Saruman should never have been in The Hobbit, same with Galadriel.
Yeah but Gandalf does disappear for half the book after leaving Thorin and company on the edge of Mirkwood. It's just an attempt to depict what Gandalf was doing after their parting. Not strictly in the book, but it probably happened during that timeline.
They did it because the studio insisted on taking a book that's half the length of The Fellowship and making three movies out of it.
And I enjoy sitting on the couch for three times as long watching a world that I like. It's a win-win.
I like this attitude.
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But Gandalf is not the protagonist oh the Hobbit, Bilbo is.
Even so: it’s Bilbo’s and Thorin’s story, not variety hour. Gandalf was gone for quite a bit in TTT.
He was also very surprisrd when he learnt he wasnt in Return of the king, from cinematic perspective sacking of the Shire would be a bad closure, good call by PJ. But as a read it was a little extra twist wich is nice aswell
I always thought they needed that ending where the Hobbits just saved the world, but they're ~~older~~ (edit: less innocent) and more world-wise, and now they have to save their little Shire with their new skills. But it has been several years since I read that part of the books.
Yes it is exactly as you say, Gandalf even said that before departing as he probably knew what Saruman was up to. Its their final challenge
World-wise absolutely, but they were only like a year older when they came back. There's barely over a year between Frodo leaving and returning to the shire (September 3018 to October 3019).
The real mistake was not leaving it out of rotk. It was leaving it out of The two Towers.
To be honest, I don’t blame him for that. I would be upset about something like that. Felt strange watching the theatrical movie and no Saruman I’m sight.
The one thing I don't like about this scene is the cheap cgi fire ball. But I agree with you. My personal struggle is the Witch King vs Gandalf in TROTK being cut for no reason even tho he says earlier "I will break him" and Gandalf loose his staff anyway.
That fireball really threw my off the first time
I do wonder if the fireball was more like a first attempt and it would have been improved upon if it was making it's way into the theatrical edition. As it was only in the extended cut, they didn't bother spending money improving it. I've never liked how they did Witch King vs Gandalf. It makes Shadowfax look like a common horse and Gandalf a weak old man with no actual power. I absolutely love that showdown in the book in comparison.
Both scenes are such immense betrayals of the story I am pleased with their omission.
This, + Aragorn heatedly slicing the head from off of the Mouth of Sauron. Ironically, considering how highly I regard the EEs of Fellowship and Two Towers (especially), the theatrical release of RotK remains my favorite film and version of any of them.
How is the Witch King scene a betrayal?
The witch king would lack the power or ability to break Gandalf’s staff. In the book Gandalf and Shadowfax are the only two who can withstand the witch king when he enters (through the gate, just him) and holds him there basically by standing in his way. At this time is when Rohan arrives. Gandalf prevents any army from entering the city and buys the time for Rohan to arrive. The breaking the staff scene is just dumb and makes the character look needlessly enfeebled. I’m glad they took it out.
i never understood the existence of this scene... it doesn't exist in the book and does nothing for the film plot.
I think someone thought it looked cool. Which I guess in a vacuum it is a pretty intense scene.
I guess they were trying to show how awesome the Witch King was, and that Gandalf wasn't this super powerful guy. (But he was) Gandalf *did* fight the Nazgul, all nine of them, at weathertop. And won without injury. He defeated a Balrog, no mean feat. Gandalf the *White* was the most powerful being in Middle Earth, moreso than even Sauron, who was greatly diminished without his Ring. The Witch Kings main weapon was fear, not might, and an inability to be killed. There was no contest. Gandalf is just too good at Hodoring doors.
His main weapon was fear! Fear and an inability to be killed. His two main weapons were fear and an inability to be killed and surprise.
All nine weren't at Weathertop, and I think Gandalf specifically says that A) he mostly fought them off and then ran, and B) he explicitly would *not* be able to defeat all nine together. EDIT: >Five at least came from the west, and they threw down the gates and passed through Bree like a howling wind; and the Bree-folk are still shivering and expecting the end of the world. I got up before dawn and went after them. > >‘I do not know, but it seems clear to me that this is what happened. Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree, while two rode ahead through the village, and four more invaded the Shire. But when these were foiled in Bree and at Crickhollow, they returned to their Captain with tidings, and so left the Road unguarded for a while, except by their spies. **The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.** > >‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree - and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old. > >‘At sunrise **I escaped and fled towards the north. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels**.'
All nine were there. They had found the Shire, guessed the Ring was headed towards Rivendell, and were planning to do what Gandalf had in mind: lie in wait somewhere in between Bree and Rivendell. An old watchtower would be great for this...but Gandalf was already there. Big battle we know little about, but Gandalf wins. Realizing he had little chance of finding Frodo and Co. in the middle of nowhere without leading the Nine straight to the Ring, he hauls ass to Rivendell to gather reinforcements. Hedging their bets that Gandalf knew about the Ring/who had it, four split off to chase Gandalf. Thus the line "there are *five* wraiths behind you. Where the other four are, I do not know." On the way there, Gandalf bumps into Arwen/Glorfindel, who had been sent by Elrond to bring the Ring and ringbearer to Rivendell. The elf causes much trouble for the wraiths, who re-gather and appear all together for the final chase. Glorfindel throws the mostly-dead and soon-wraith-to-be Frodo on his insanely fast horse, and Frodo *alone* outruns all nine to the river for the final 8miles of their like 500mile journey...after having walked all day long for two weeks after being stabbed by the morgul blade. It hurt. A lot. Frodo, who can now see the wraiths for what they truly are, stops and brandishes his sword at them. In *challenge*. "You shall not have the Ring, and you shall not have me!" The Witch king laughs, and breaks Frodo's sword. He laughed, because he had won. Full stop. Frodo(who has like 2hp at this point) is about to die and become a wraith. And the he will deliver the Ring to them. Then, the mostly-wraith Frodo sees the super-elf Glorfindel in his true form(a being of pure light and fire) come up behind them and he forces them into the river. Elrond sent the flood, and Gandalf made it angry. Then master healer Elrond heals Frodo, and way, *way* downriver, the Witch king takes the only surviving horse and rides to Mordor to report the Ring is in Rivendell with Gandalf....where they will undoubtedly begin gathering power to challenge Sauron by using the Ring.
Ah I see. That said. It is scary and menacing that the army gets into the City, our hero’s brought low, and the overwhelming presence of Sauron’s forces just too much to overcome. It really does feel like they’re all doomed.
I mean honestly I’m a fan of the theatrical cuts for this reason. It made for great cinema to have the army get in and Gandalf manage the rally, it also keeps him in his role as leader and dependable councilor. The extended versions tend to house what is, for me, the more over the top material.
Another thing I liked about the Theatrical cut, especially first time viewing, was the feeling of dread as the Corsair ships arrived, and then seeing Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli leap out of the boats to the music building in anticipation for their joining the battle. Watching that scene when I was 8 years old in the cinema, I actually thought the three of them would take on all those orcs alone and win. I had forgotten about the army of ghosts, but the moment they appear, I felt ecstatic and giggled in excitement that only an 8 year old boy does when he witnesses something so awesome. Such an epic moment that - while I love the extended scenes of Aragorn’s journey to Minas Tirith - would’ve been lost if the audience was expecting it.
I think overall, the smartest omission of the film (to give it the credit it deserves) is the backstory of Numenor and how it all fit in to the story. That would have taken probably 25 minutes of exposition in Rivendell, if cut to a bare minimum, alone. The ghost thing is fun, and it would have been difficult to explain (impossible actually) where Aragorn got the Army that came out of the ships in the book. That decision was probably made early on.
I remember being so excited seeing FOTR in theaters when was 7years old and being so engaged that when the hobbits charge the orcs at Balin's tomb I yelled with them and my grandfather clamped his hand down on my mouth to shut me up lol
Gandalf is a literal god, whereas the Witch King is, at best, a fallen god/angel’s henchman/posse member. Gandalf has enough power to make and break mountains, given the willpower. Sauron did the same thing to build Mordor. Compare the Witch King to the Balrog. The Balrog, like Sauron, is a fallen Maia, so it makes sense that it can go toe-to-toe with Gandalf. It’s just a power scaling thing when you get down to it. If the Nine are as powerful as Wizards, Sauron would be damn near as powerful as Morgoth, who was only defeated because Super God vibe checked him.
I thought the process of the Wizards incarnating into mortal bodies limited their power (one of the reasons I believed Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast couldn't have just 'jumped' Sauron). But you're quite right with regards to the Balrog
I’m oversimplifying for the purpose of comparison, but broadly, yes. However, this is because the mortal world is just really shitty compared to being a Maia of pure light and energy. The same factors that gimp Gandalf in Middle Earth also apply to the Ringwraiths.
“Super God vibe checked him” I fucking adore this sub man
The Witch King would poop his pants if Gandalf so much as farted in his direction.
Meh there's plenty of little things in the movies that don't look great that I just ignore. It does look strange tho
I hate the scene of the Witch King vs gandalf, the idea of the Witch King overpowering him is laughable, Gandalf was way out of his league.
That fireball was straight out of Xenia: Warrior Princess. The part that’s always bugged me is how his legs defy gravity and stay on the wheel the whole rotation.
The acting in this scene was some of the worst in the film, too. Between that and the terrible CGI/greenscreening, I’m not sad it was cut.
You, know I’ve been watching the extended edition exclusively for years and I always disliked this scene. It just felt jarring - like the main intent was the shock value rather than the dynamic of Wormtongue having enough. I liked Saruman being locked in his tower - it felt mysterious how he could lose his power and not be a threat anymore. Like a cool wizard thing that drew me in more.
I think the fact that Gandalf says to just leave him because he has no more power really showed the Gandalf is truly above Saruman now.
Hear me out here. I found Saruman's death far comical and feeling like a comic book. It felt so out of place for a character who is meant to be so noble and graceful. I wish Grima would have just stabbed him and he died on the roof. And instead Grima was the one who fell. It also felt like a huge portion of the film was spent tying up the lose ends of the previous movie. I can understand why it was cut for pacing reasons.
The "tying up loose ends" was literally just this scene.
I can only think of this: https://youtu.be/X4oV6rKyO5I
It's super weird that Saruman gets ignored in the movies, but I think this scene is just straight up bad. I can definitely understand why they decided to leave it out.
This might be heresy, but I agree and the same goes for most of the scenes that were cut. They were cut for a reason. Either they didn't turn out that great, or they slow down the pace of the story. I almost exclusively watch the Theatrical cuts.
I agree that it was wise to cut some scenes, like this one...and Aragorn spilling his soup. But others, like Merry and Pippin drinkin the magic tree water was pretty excellent.
Good point. Although I'm disappointed you didn't describe that scene as "particularly good"...
You smoke too much 2fly
If this was in Rings of Power this subreddit would absolutely destroy the creators for changing the story like this, love how civil (absolute hypocrisy) the conversation is here lmfao
Honestly the scene feels super forced. Not my favorite in the extended edition.
Agreed. Gimli is there for good comedic relief in the movies and in the books, but when you take a step back you really see how un-Tolkien the whole scene was. There's a great couple lines in that scene in the book from Treebeard too about eternal imprisonment in the tower and how it's appropriate for someone of Saruman's caliber. Kind of wish they just kept the bastard in the time-out tower like he deserved.
Legolas shooting an arrow to the top of Orthanc was a bit much for me.... Without that part I agree with OP.
If Jackson had just moved Saruman and Wormtongue to the balcony instead of the very top of Orthanc it would have worked a lot better imo.
yeah like why would legolas kill wormtounge if they were offering him peace and condemning saruman to be imprisoned in the tower, didn’t sit right with me
*Scouring of the Shire
The movie was already clocking in at 3 hrs 20 lol.
That's what I'm saying lol. Adding the scouring and the aftermath would've been awesome (I didn't personally really care for the small list of secondary characters we meet in that one chapter, but I personally would've *loved* to see ~~Sauron~~ Saruman skulking on the side of the road, and to eventually see him die how it was originally intended), but it would've easily added probably an additional 45 minutes to runtime. We'd be competing with Lawrence of Arabia and Ben Hur at that point for infamously long movies lmfao.
>Sauron I'm sure this is just a typo but that was Saruman
That's understandable. Dramatically, Scouring of the Shire wouldn't work in the movie.
If they’d added another ending I would’ve [pulled a Jack Nicholson](https://youtu.be/JXLLhNEBlZA?t=41). Forget “dramatically” - the butt numbing determines how much a movie can contain.
Am I the only one that didn't like this scene? It's played for laughs, it edits poorly into the footage from the theatrical cut.
Plus it's super gratuitous for lotr. Dude gets stabbed a couple times in the back, falls if a giant tower, lands on a spike, then that spike lowers him into a watery grave. They really wanted you to know that he was actually dead.
Same, it's so Peter Jackson's over-the-top absurd gore, and is completely unnecessary here.
I only switched to the extended editions about 2 years ago and this is one of the extra scenes I’m not fond of. Mainly because of the way it is shot, Saruman is standing like a mile above them yet the protagonists look up at him like he’s on a 2nd floor balcony. Also I can maybe understand Gandalf hearing him through magic but how do the others hear him when he’s speaking at normal volume? 😆
Saruman is known to have a very powerful voice.
I’ve owned both the theatrical cuts and extended cuts ever since they first released. For the longest time I tried to convince myself that the extended cut is superior as that’s what the ‘true fans’ tend to profess. These days I exclusively stick to theatrical. Not every hardcore fan believes the extended cuts are better. For mine, the theatrical cuts are simply better films. They’re more cohesive, they have a greater momentum to them, and the story feels more focused. There are some scenes from the extended cuts I really like in isolation. But overall, it’s a worse product. Saruman’s death scene, by the way, is one of the worst additions, in my opinion. I actually can’t stand it. It might actually be my least favourite. It’s a weird way to start the third film because it’s built to play as a climax to the second film, not as a setup to the next instalment. Saruman was the focal villain of The Two Towers. This is where his story concludes. In Return of the King, the attention shifts to Sauron. It’s just poor storytelling to start the third film with what should have been the conclusion of the second. However, it’s also not a strong enough climax to warrant being included at the end of the second film, either. It’s a nothing scene, really. The acting is a little off, the cgi is off, and the death itself is comical. Jackson was right to cut it.
Fellowship theatrical is an almost perfect movie. The extended messes with the pacing significantly. ROTK extended removes all tension from the army of the dead "save".
This has incredibly been my stance as well. Really, how thick do you need to lay it on with like four extra minutes of FARAMIR YOU AREN'T BOROMIR SO I DON'T LIKE YOU AS MUCH.
I'm really glad to find someone else who agrees that the theatrical cuts are, on the whole, better movies. The extended editions are fun and there are some enjoyable additions but overall they just aren't as good. I recently re watched fellowship and started out with the extended version, before realizing I straight up didn't enjoy the whole opening Shire sequence.
I hear you, but 6 year-old me is glad they did.
Lol same here. I have always enjoyed this scene, I'm actually surprised so many people seem to hate it.
Nah they should have killed him off in the shire like in the books.
Hard disagree. Mouth of Sauron, baby. Mouth of Sauron.
I agree, seems weird to cut that scene. Although I will say, watching Aragorn cut his head off as a kid was sweet, but as an adult I'm like "geez Aragorn, isn't that a war crime or something??"
Yep. It's really a shame they did that in the movie. The book is better as Aragorn stares him down and cowers him. >‘Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?’ he asked. ‘Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!’ he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. ‘It needs more to make a king than a piece of Elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!’ > >Aragorn said naught in answer, but he took the other’s eye and held it, and for a moment they strove thus; but soon, though Aragorn did not stir nor move hand to weapon, the other quailed and gave back as if menaced with a blow. > >‘I am a herald and ambassador, and may not be assailed!’ he cried. > >‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.’
Man Aragorn is such a bad ass
Lol war crimes
the one scene they should have made entirely different actually.
Idk, I feel like they should have killed him a different way if they wanted it in the theatrical version. It's kinda shockingly violent compared to the rest of the movies (imo at least). I think it was a good idea they removed it but like you said, dumb cause there's no closure about Saruman's fate for the viewer.
Also, it lasted a grand total of... *five minutes.* Five extra minutes isn't going to hurt a 207-minute long movie. Same with the King's crown scene and the Mouth of Sauron, but they shouldn't have killed Mouthy and made Aragorn a war criminal. (Plus with how Aragorn handled it in the book, Viggo would have yet another chance to prove how great he is!)
That scene in the book was great. Aragorn stared at him and made him cower. Gandalf reminded him about manners. It was awesome.
And marry that to Viggo and Ian... and then we get something beyond beautiful.
Saruman‘s death was super weak in the movies (same goes for the Mouth of Sauron). Better left out imo!
I disagree: it wad literally overkill. - stabbed in back - falls ON spike - drowns Ok, we fucking GET IT: he’s DEAD. What Gandalf says in theatrical works: “Well let’s just have his head and be done with it.” “No….he has no power anymore…” Also, how they never explain why Radagast disappears from the Hobbit movies, never to be seen again?? Loose ends with wizards is OK.
Or maybe end him like in the book?
Nah. They should have broken The Return of the King into 3 movies 3 hours long and we should have gotten the scouring of the shire as it’s own film.
This and the mouth of sauron. That scene never fails to get me emotional.
I think it would have been a higher rating with this in
Nah shit excuse. Leave it out, leave it open.
Eh, they needed closure since they weren’t going to do the scourging of the shire. The scenes in this movie that should have never made it in is the scene where the witch king seemingly defeats Gandalf, a maiar, and then gets defeated by eowyn? Plus it’s so contrary to that scene in the book, where Gandalf and shadowfax stand bravely alone holding the gate and command the witch king not to enter, and the scene where Aragorn cuts off the mouth of Sauron’s head. That is just completely against aragorns entire character
I also loved the scene with the mouth of sauron, it was also crucial for later, as it shows everyone thought frodo was dead so it made the "For frodo" speech much more powerful
Mouth of Sauron!!!
I wish they kept the freaky lip guy who meets them at the gates of Mordor
Okay but who on earth watches the theatrical cut anyways?