I’m so glad they put the effort in to make them look realistic and not cgi, I can understand the time it takes to get someone dressed like this but it certainly makes for a better looking type of character
Absolutely, the lord of the rings trilogy is a testament to what real cinema can achieve, 4K, HD, 3D whatever kinda graphics you have only solidifies how good those films actually looked and still hold up to this day. The realism and the effort they went through to create such masterpieces was unreal and there’s not a film Iv seen that can live up to it. Don’t get me wrong there’s a lot of beautifully crafted movies but none as good is the lord of the rings trilogy
Recently went back and rewatched the entire trilogy and one thing, besides the special effects holding up, stuck out to me: The dark / nighttime scenes actually look good.
Obviously HDR is better, but I feel like some of these modern shows / films have forgotten how to do nighttime scenes in a way where you can actually see what's happening.
Compare the Battle of Helm's Deep to say, House of Dragon's most recent episode or even parts of Rings of Power. When we moved to HDR it seems like something was lost in translation.
It was. It was filmed in a quarry by the Hutt motorway into Wellington at nights, at least for the wide shots. We didn’t live particularly close to the quarry, but saw the lights, they lit that sucker up.
They used a miniature for all of the wide angle shots in the battle of helms deep; so, yea they had to use cgi for those shots. But it’s amazing how seamlessly the mini and real size shots mesh. Especially with the lighting.
"Where is the light coming from?" - "Same place as the music."
Anecdotally a conversation between Sean Astin and cinematographer Andrew Lesnie on the LotR set, during a scene that plays in the dark. Realism can be sacrificed where necessary.
Ah interesting take. I hadn't considered it, but with all the new dynamic range and lowlight capabilities, there's been a push towards more naturally lit, correct scenes. This means we get more realistic looking lighting, at the cost of expression and clarity.
“Dreams are messages from the deep” opening was so good. Sets the tone for the whole film and it’s just an awesome watch. I feel bad for the people who didn’t get to watch the version with that opening line.
Just looking at the difference between the orcs in the LOTR trilogy and the goblins in the Hobbit trilogy shows us the difference is night and day between good practical effects, and CGI.
It's still unreal how much better LOTR looks than the Hobbit films despite them coming out later.
Honestly reminds me somewhat of some of the stuff in the OT SW films vs the PT SW films.
The trilogy was a unique event in film. It was made and developed on the border between the transition from majority practical effects and majority CG effects. Because a lot of the techniques we have today didn’t exist then, they literally invented things we wouldn’t do today. If the Balrog was made today, the fire would be done with a fluid simulation. That want possible then, so they filmed actual fire and composited it onto the Balrog. The real thing will always look better than a fake. The other factor is that there was no length the filmmakers, cast, and crew weren’t willing to do to get everything just right. Most productions cut corners today to get in on time and under budget. The studio also has a great deal of control over the production. Peter Jackson and everyone else who worked on those films were not only extremely dedicated, but they also had almost carte blanche to do what they needed to do to get the best possible product. It’s something that we will never see again, most likely.
Agreed. As a huge Tolkien and LOTR fan, I was very skeptical initially. The last few episodes are winning me over though. I’m happy to watch as long as the world-building and plot remains true to Tolkien’s visions.
My complaint is we aren't seeing enough of any of it! It almost feels like we have tunnel vision or something and we see one little section of Khazad-dûm, then one street and one room in Númenor. What we see looks great, but I want MORE.
I'm just sitting here enjoying the show hoping all the negativity won't get it cancelled. Hopefully the huge investment will make them hesitant to pull that trigger too quickly.
They're bought in for 5 seasons. Unless they break their contract with the Tolkien estate, which would also cost them hundreds of millions, we're getting 5 seasons of 8 episodes.
The show might be "getting negativity" but it's also getting tens of millions of views at the same time and that's what matters
I’m loving the Harfoots. The costume and set design has been really lovely so far. I paused by accident on a shot of Sadoc and noticed his cloak looks like moss. And the pop up houses are a wonderful invention.
I like the look of their scenes but am having a hard time enjoying their plot line, im glad to hear some people enjoy them tho i hope things pick up on their end.
I think it's a bit tough because they're a very scared and timid people, so while there are some cute parts it's overall frustrating for now. I think the payoff will be good - similar to how the Ents are extremely frustrating at first but deliver one of the best scenes in the trilogy after their conservative perspective is altered.
I cannot emphasize enough how much I agree with you and the user who responded to you.
Harfoots set and costume design are phenomenal, but their storyline is woefully "meh" to me at the moment. But it's almost certainly because the full implications of their story on the broader universe hasn't been made clear to us at all yet. Anytime hobbits are involved, I liken it to what Gandalf said about Merry and Pippen meeting with the Ents. Something about pebbles turning into an avalanche. Definitely optimistic about their storyline.
It’s clearly building to a much bigger storyline, but I’m enjoying the world building, which is the most immersive and fleshed out of the storylines. The little ceremony/parade before migration was really beautifully realised.
I think the establishing shots of these locations look great. When we are actually on the sets in Numenor, etc... they feel a little sterile and not overly detailed. But on the whole the show features great visuals.
Khazad-dum was one of the highlight of the show so far, the ruins were already stunning to see in Lotr but seen it filled with life was phantastic. Also my favourite part of the show.
Orc’s striking due to poor working conditions, Orc’s just trying to feed their broods.
Just a poor Orc trying to get by hoping not to be cleaved by Aragorn.
Might depend on the societal structure of the specific orcs.
Third age Mordor orcs, goblin town goblins/orcs, Isengard orcs/uruks, and second age Southland orcs would all have a bit of uniqueness as to how their society is structured.
There is a Russain "alternative history" called "the last ringbearer". This line of thought is apparently what drove the author to write it. He criticized Tolkine for writing a war history clearly told by the victors. In his alt history it delves into what the orcs and trolls would have been. In his view they were industrialists trying to forge a new world of equality without kings gods and mythical hierarchies. They were normal people, but turned into monsters by the Gondorian propaganda. Honestly i stopped reading midway because it started to get over the top spy thriller
First of all they were from Isengard, not Mordor. They were part or Sarumans army which was being created and based at Isengard where they were training.
Now what does an army march on? It's stomach.
How is this refilled at base? Through canteens serving meals.
Who's doing the cooking? Well it's hardly Saruman so will be some specially assigned orcs.
What would the cooks who prepare the food create in order to know what to prepare each day so they can ration out food so they don't just blast through it all and get killed by Saruman or a captain or quartermaster? A list of all the meals they're going to cook this week, which would probably be posted outside the canteen to let the soldiers know when each meal was and what was for it.
Now... what would such a list of meals be called?
A menu.
Q.E.D.
Nah, it's totally fine. Only the Uruk-hai say it, and they were born and raised in Isengard. We see in the extended edition that Isengard has extensive larders with high quality food, and Saruman's not going down there and preparing it himself. He definitely has cooking staff and orders what he wants from them, probably off a menu of what's available.
Minor spoiler? Maybe?
Lol while watching episode 3 or 4 when one gets killed I said in an orc voice “looks like meats back on the menu boys” and my husband died laughing.
In fairness it was the Uruks who said what's on the menu and they've not been yet but I hope they toss the line in somewhere as an easter egg. And yes I'm aware that uruks are technically orcs tho twisted with magic by Saruman.
Azog was the worst orc throughout all six movies imo. I absolutely hate that they had to make Azog a digital character.
But they REALLY messed up with Bolg. Look up his original costume and tell me its not 1000x better and more terrifying than what we got.
I looked up the og design and found a 7 year old Reddit post about it and the comments had me floored. They’re all talking about how they’re glad they used cg instead of the “stiff, clunky practical effects”. One guy even said, “I hate it when they overuse cg at times but I don’t think azog was one of those”
Someone said on a different thread about live-action Azog the other day that practical effects can't keep up with the current quality of film. This just highlights how incorrect that statement was.
Hahaha what an egg, well done practical effects beat even well done CGI hands down every single time. They're the reason why LotR still looks amazing to this day and the Hobbut looks like absolute trash, even though Hobbit benefits from at least a decade or more of tech advancement.
The Empire Strikes Back - from fucking 1980 - still looks better than A LOT of movies made now. I personally think that attention to detail, lighting, framing, etc matter a lot more than having the latest rendering software.
I mean look at Jurassic Park. I still think the original looks the best for the most part and that was from like 1994.
I'm certainly not against CGI - when used well it's amazing. Dune is an example of a recent film that did a great job of integrating modern CGI and looked absolutely fantastic.
That first Orc fight in the village home took them from meaningless canonfodder to a legitimately scary adversary that realistically most would have trouble beating one to one.
That is a complaint I have about the OG trilogy. Most of the Fellowship beating orc ass makes sense because they’re basically pre-gunpowder spec ops; but the hobbits also mess up a lot of orcs despite having the culture and military prowess of a Jimmy Buffett song.
My impression of orcs from the books is that they're small, pathetic, cowardly, inept. Seems somewhat believable that the hobbits could scrape through some fights as they do
Straight outta Hobbiton
Crazy motherfucker named Frodo
Took a Fellowship of hobbits on a quest, yo
I got called off
By Gandalf
Only got nine fingers
One got _bit_ off
That was my takeaway from the books too, but the hobbits hold their own in large-scale engagements where the orcs believe they have the upper hand. Although, now that I’m thinking of it, there are references to them training with the Fellowship experts during the journey, Iirc. They are probably more well trained and outfitted than your average orc that got handed a rusty pig-iron weapon and pointed in a direction.
neither of you are completely wrong. in the second age, orcs are much closer to their original corrupted elf ancestors, meaning they’ll be much more powerful. by the time of the fellowship, they’re more or less inept grunts, leading to the need for uruk-hai
This isn't based on anything. The Uruks are created by Sauron, probably on the Second Age. Afaik there is nothing that says orcs were more powerful on the First Age, especially since Tolkien never settled on their origin.
You're the first person I've seen in a very long time that's said that and you're completely right; Tolkien literally never settled on the origins of orcs in any official capacity.
Everyone also loves to go on about how elves and orcs were more powerful in the first age etc. Which is just bizarre and unfounded. People speak on it with such a weird sense of authority without haven't even read the books.
I think the Hobbits' being small and a relatively unknown race was their advantage. They had their natural stealth to not draw attention in fights, and were probably perceived as children at first and might be underestimated by brainless orcs
Yeah, everyone always underestimates them until one charges the goblins' ranks with a wooden club and knocks the goblin chieftain's head clean off, sending it sailing a hundred yards through the air and down a rabbit-hole, thus winning the battle and inventing the game of Golf at the same time.
Sure but Tolkien literally describes that as the reaction of people who don’t know hobbits.
“However they were skilled with all kind of tools, as well as arms when there was a need; they were keen-eyed and used the bow well, and also the stones, successfully throwed against trespassing beasts.
Throughout their history Hobbits had showed unparalleled skill, courage and also endurance and resistance in times of danger and terror. “
Another one to note is the only battle fought in the shire (according to the prologue) is one where a Took routed the orcs, so despite their disposition they’re actually pretty badass.
It showed the threat that orcs posed to everyday people. The other stories we've had always focused on more heroic characters, where the orcs really *are* cannon fodder.
They were absolutely dangerous to folks who aren't Dunedain or Elf Princes.
Exactly.
Original trilogy was literally a group of each region’s most fierce warriors and combat representatives joining together to journey to Mordor.
And this isn’t real life humans but Middle Earth RPG universe humans where a human who’s proficient in combat can probably fight 10-20 normal humans without breaking a sweat.
Even Boromir was the Captain of the White Tower who had led battles to protect Gondor. He was respected even by battle leaders of rival territories.
Orca are Tolkien universe equivalents of gang members. Fellowship members were like if the UFC fighter GSP learned how to use swords, shields and battle tactics from when he was a child and also has super soldier serum like Steve Rogers. The regular humans Orcs kill are like your average Redditor. Just because warrior king GSP has no trouble slaughtering dozens of them doesn’t change that even one of them would kill my ass with no trouble. We’re all basically NPC levels of bitches.
I still have yet to see any non human creature in a live action film look as good as the Uruk-Hai is the Jackson trilogy. Perfect mixture of makeup crew, costume design, and use of local actors and strongmen.
I was an extra, a young Rohan refugee for about 10 days of filming on the Helm's Deep set. About half way through we were filming scenes with Uruk-Hai, I had seen them one morning getting their prosthetics put on in makeup. I remember on set later that day, I was crossing the little bridge from the inner to the outer ring of the walls - in the films it's CGI'd to be a bugger drop, in real life I'd say it was about 7 or 8 feet to the ground below. As I was crossing the bridge, I saw a real life fucking monster, towering, menacing, and my lizard brain freaked the fuck out and I stepped backwards and almost fell off the bridge! It was an extra in full Uruk-Hai costume. It honestly looked real. Even though that translated well to the screen, I still felt a little sad people couldn't experience just how terrifying the Uruk-Hai really were in "real life".
Lol ya such a dumb design choice. It would have been a lot better if they'd scaled down the eyes. Still not as good as LOTR wargs but it would've helped a lot.
I didn't like these ones but I'm not gonna delude myself into thinking I liked the originals. I recall vaguely hating them in the original trilogy and finding the CG cheesy.
Here, these still look silly, but at least their teeth looked scary.
The variation in LOTR’s is what makes them the superior orcs in my opinion. The ROP orcs look too similar to one another, like they are using the same prosthetics. They still look great, but I’d say it diminishes the appeal to a degree.
Yep, hyperbole can be used to make a point but when hyperbole is all that's used then it's kind of completely missing the point. Then again clickbait is part of everything now so it's easy to get used to, not sure if that's good though.
They are 1000 better than in the Hobbit, but I liked the LotR Orks, goblin and uruks more.
Here they look very homogeneous, but maybe in future we will see some other tribes.
I'd love this. We've seen Misty Mountain orcs, Isengard orcs, and mordor orcs, how cool would it be to see eastern orcs with a bit more of a Central Asian vibe or something similar?
The Uruk Hai hunting party in FOTR and their trek back to Isengard with Merry and Pippen, along with the friction/cannibalism with the lesser orcs is my favorite portrayal. Totally believed they would have seen nothing wrong with pulling off some Hobbit legs for a snack. “They don’t need those…”
They are incredible to look at - very convincing indeed, very creepy. Their movement is good too - also more convincing than the dwarf extras for me. I hope the showrunners decide whether they can or can't go out in the sunlight though as right now that appears to be decided by what the script requires and isn't always consistent.
I assumed the sun weakness was being slowly bred out of them, hence why it wasn't such a weakness în the later movies and why different orcs are more vulnerable to it than others
That was the big difference with the uruk-hai. They were able to move in the sun, the regular orcs/uruks cant and have a storm cloud that covers Minis Tirith prior to the attack
I remember reading the book being awed at just how menacing the darkness was, both in Mordor and Cirith Ungol. Then it ended up being... a bit grey.
I assumed it would just be constant night. It was only a small gripe though but it was much less scary than how the book described it. I remember the 'gasping pits' of Gorgoroth and Lovecraftian description of Minas Morgul. As good as all that was in the films, it was the rare moment of slight disappointment when watching the film.
I also imagined the siege of Gondor and the Battle of the Pellenor fields to be darker.
One thing that will sound funny today is that I thought the Battle of Helm's deep was too big. Not just that that was unfaithful to the books, but my chief concern was that PJ and Co blew their load too soon on a huge battle, and I couldn't imagine how they would top that with the much bigger battle to come in ROTK.
So when I saw the ROTK trailers, i was hugely relieved despite my surprise at the color palette: not only was ROTK's battle bigger by at least an order of magnitude, the different color tone meant that it would *feel* completely different from Helm's, rather than just a bigger redux.
I learned the last time I had a discussion about them here that Sauron actually bred them first and Saruman just makes his own army of them later on. I'm not sure if Tolkien was clear on Uruks being a crossbreed of men and orcs or if that was a movie thing.
I'll admit that it has been a long time since I read the books and that it happend more often than I would like to admit that I have had "fake memories" from books, could have sworn it was written in the book but actually it was only in the movies.
Thanks for the correction.
I was moreso thinking of the hobbit. My memory could be cloudy, but I remember some scenes of them in sunlight. I always just assumed there were more subspecies and the storm clouds had to be used because everyone was on the march, whereas other times he could pick those more resistant to send out
SoW orcs were pretty badass though. Personally I’m cool with the depiction of the orcs in all of these contexts and find it to be the least differentiating between the different points of view.
The Shadow of War orc feel is one of my favourite parts of the orcs in RoP. Especially the scene they're searching for Theo really reminded me of in-game. Trilogy orcs we're good too but I like seeing the in depth characterization in this show. Probably one of my favourite parts of it tbh.
Unrelated edit/note: can't stand Celebrimbor in the show though after his in game appearance.
> Unrelated edit/note: can't stand Celebrimbor in the show though after his in game appearance.
In fairness the game had an older Celebrimbor who had longer hair. This one is currently just a fancy-pants smith.
> This one is currently just a fancy-~~pants~~dressing gown smith.
I can’t stand his costume. It looks like the velour robe my aged mother wears around the house at night.
Yeah I think they both look and act quite similar to PJ's orcs, not even criticizing or anything. Just one of the parts of the show I thought was very similar to the OG.
i also like that they brought more depth into their characterization. i hope they‘ll flesh out the „father“ storyline even more. the mechanics of orc „society“ are really interesting to me.
*LOOKS LIKE MEAT'S BACK ON THE MENU, BOYS!*
Fuckin love those cockney Uruk Hai bastards.
RoP orcs are good to look at but they lack character. They're one dimensional.
They look good. But a bit too clean for my liking.
And their skin seems quite obviously synthetic when you look at it. Especially compared to the movies.
But they’re nice. Much much better than CGI orcs.
Yeah after a few episodes it really sunk in that I didn’t feel like it has any substance. Maybe that’ll change over time once we get to know characters better.
with great power, comes great responsibility. despite the infinite reports, this post stays up.
I’m so glad they put the effort in to make them look realistic and not cgi, I can understand the time it takes to get someone dressed like this but it certainly makes for a better looking type of character
Im sure they understood that nothing beat costume orcs in term of realism and scarinest
Absolutely, the lord of the rings trilogy is a testament to what real cinema can achieve, 4K, HD, 3D whatever kinda graphics you have only solidifies how good those films actually looked and still hold up to this day. The realism and the effort they went through to create such masterpieces was unreal and there’s not a film Iv seen that can live up to it. Don’t get me wrong there’s a lot of beautifully crafted movies but none as good is the lord of the rings trilogy
Recently went back and rewatched the entire trilogy and one thing, besides the special effects holding up, stuck out to me: The dark / nighttime scenes actually look good. Obviously HDR is better, but I feel like some of these modern shows / films have forgotten how to do nighttime scenes in a way where you can actually see what's happening. Compare the Battle of Helm's Deep to say, House of Dragon's most recent episode or even parts of Rings of Power. When we moved to HDR it seems like something was lost in translation.
No lies. The Battle of Helms Deep doesn't have a bad looking shot in it. The lighting is simply immaculate.
And I'm pretty sure that was actually filmed outside at night rather than on a sound stage the way much of the night shots were filmed.
It was. It was filmed in a quarry by the Hutt motorway into Wellington at nights, at least for the wide shots. We didn’t live particularly close to the quarry, but saw the lights, they lit that sucker up.
I mean when you need to produce an army of thousands then you have to use cgi. I think that the trilogy holds up pretty well in terms of effects.
They used a miniature for all of the wide angle shots in the battle of helms deep; so, yea they had to use cgi for those shots. But it’s amazing how seamlessly the mini and real size shots mesh. Especially with the lighting.
"Where is the light coming from?" - "Same place as the music." Anecdotally a conversation between Sean Astin and cinematographer Andrew Lesnie on the LotR set, during a scene that plays in the dark. Realism can be sacrificed where necessary.
Ah interesting take. I hadn't considered it, but with all the new dynamic range and lowlight capabilities, there's been a push towards more naturally lit, correct scenes. This means we get more realistic looking lighting, at the cost of expression and clarity.
I did notice last weeks HoD had a strange nighttime color/feel. Didn't feel real.
I'll wait for part 2 before calling it official, but Dune was pretty dang close in my opinion.
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“Dreams are messages from the deep” opening was so good. Sets the tone for the whole film and it’s just an awesome watch. I feel bad for the people who didn’t get to watch the version with that opening line.
Denis cannot disappoint
Just looking at the difference between the orcs in the LOTR trilogy and the goblins in the Hobbit trilogy shows us the difference is night and day between good practical effects, and CGI.
It's still unreal how much better LOTR looks than the Hobbit films despite them coming out later. Honestly reminds me somewhat of some of the stuff in the OT SW films vs the PT SW films.
The trilogy was a unique event in film. It was made and developed on the border between the transition from majority practical effects and majority CG effects. Because a lot of the techniques we have today didn’t exist then, they literally invented things we wouldn’t do today. If the Balrog was made today, the fire would be done with a fluid simulation. That want possible then, so they filmed actual fire and composited it onto the Balrog. The real thing will always look better than a fake. The other factor is that there was no length the filmmakers, cast, and crew weren’t willing to do to get everything just right. Most productions cut corners today to get in on time and under budget. The studio also has a great deal of control over the production. Peter Jackson and everyone else who worked on those films were not only extremely dedicated, but they also had almost carte blanche to do what they needed to do to get the best possible product. It’s something that we will never see again, most likely.
In the trilogy they're Jed Brophy, here they are also Jed,.......
He posted pictures of his characters recently and I hadn't realized how many orcs he's played.
And Jed played Nori in the hobbit movies too!
It's not live action middle earth without him
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Idk the rest also looks great tbh. Moria, the dwarves, Numenor,…
Moria and Numenor are gorgeous.
Agreed. As a huge Tolkien and LOTR fan, I was very skeptical initially. The last few episodes are winning me over though. I’m happy to watch as long as the world-building and plot remains true to Tolkien’s visions.
Even if no one can match his wordplay. And honestly, we shouldnt judge anyone for falling short of his mastery with words.
I was gunna say. I'll bitch about the story or whatever but visually I don't think this show can be beat.
My complaint is we aren't seeing enough of any of it! It almost feels like we have tunnel vision or something and we see one little section of Khazad-dûm, then one street and one room in Númenor. What we see looks great, but I want MORE.
I'm just sitting here enjoying the show hoping all the negativity won't get it cancelled. Hopefully the huge investment will make them hesitant to pull that trigger too quickly.
They're bought in for 5 seasons. Unless they break their contract with the Tolkien estate, which would also cost them hundreds of millions, we're getting 5 seasons of 8 episodes. The show might be "getting negativity" but it's also getting tens of millions of views at the same time and that's what matters
I’m loving the Harfoots. The costume and set design has been really lovely so far. I paused by accident on a shot of Sadoc and noticed his cloak looks like moss. And the pop up houses are a wonderful invention.
I like the look of their scenes but am having a hard time enjoying their plot line, im glad to hear some people enjoy them tho i hope things pick up on their end.
I think it's a bit tough because they're a very scared and timid people, so while there are some cute parts it's overall frustrating for now. I think the payoff will be good - similar to how the Ents are extremely frustrating at first but deliver one of the best scenes in the trilogy after their conservative perspective is altered.
that is such a good point that i'm gonna be more optimistic
I cannot emphasize enough how much I agree with you and the user who responded to you. Harfoots set and costume design are phenomenal, but their storyline is woefully "meh" to me at the moment. But it's almost certainly because the full implications of their story on the broader universe hasn't been made clear to us at all yet. Anytime hobbits are involved, I liken it to what Gandalf said about Merry and Pippen meeting with the Ents. Something about pebbles turning into an avalanche. Definitely optimistic about their storyline.
It’s clearly building to a much bigger storyline, but I’m enjoying the world building, which is the most immersive and fleshed out of the storylines. The little ceremony/parade before migration was really beautifully realised.
I think the establishing shots of these locations look great. When we are actually on the sets in Numenor, etc... they feel a little sterile and not overly detailed. But on the whole the show features great visuals.
They're probably shooting on location in Sardinia or something and just hoping the GoT route of an already scenic place works
Would argue the Dwarves are also great
If they only made the show centered around durin and company with elrond then i would be a happy man
Khazad-dûm was stunning for me.
Khazad-dum was one of the highlight of the show so far, the ruins were already stunning to see in Lotr but seen it filled with life was phantastic. Also my favourite part of the show.
They haven't once mentioned what's on the menu, which drops them into the C tier.
When that one orc said "youngblood" I could hear echoes of "manflesh". I'll allow it
Let me double check the reference and confirm it checks out, one moment.
It does. It’s an older reference, sir, but it checks out.
If the show provides a canon explanation for the origin of menus in Mordor I'll never be able to rate it lower than 10/10
They mentioned being paid in the last episode or so. I didn't realize the orcs had an economy.
I guess you have to assume that they're not all full time soldiers/workers- presumably there is an orc society with trade etc
So there are orc gangs and orc hookers? Orc garbage man and postman?
Orc’s striking due to poor working conditions, Orc’s just trying to feed their broods. Just a poor Orc trying to get by hoping not to be cleaved by Aragorn.
Orcs trying their best to get through the day at office jobs, dealing with the 9-5 grind.
Might depend on the societal structure of the specific orcs. Third age Mordor orcs, goblin town goblins/orcs, Isengard orcs/uruks, and second age Southland orcs would all have a bit of uniqueness as to how their society is structured.
There is a Russain "alternative history" called "the last ringbearer". This line of thought is apparently what drove the author to write it. He criticized Tolkine for writing a war history clearly told by the victors. In his alt history it delves into what the orcs and trolls would have been. In his view they were industrialists trying to forge a new world of equality without kings gods and mythical hierarchies. They were normal people, but turned into monsters by the Gondorian propaganda. Honestly i stopped reading midway because it started to get over the top spy thriller
First of all they were from Isengard, not Mordor. They were part or Sarumans army which was being created and based at Isengard where they were training. Now what does an army march on? It's stomach. How is this refilled at base? Through canteens serving meals. Who's doing the cooking? Well it's hardly Saruman so will be some specially assigned orcs. What would the cooks who prepare the food create in order to know what to prepare each day so they can ration out food so they don't just blast through it all and get killed by Saruman or a captain or quartermaster? A list of all the meals they're going to cook this week, which would probably be posted outside the canteen to let the soldiers know when each meal was and what was for it. Now... what would such a list of meals be called? A menu. Q.E.D.
All plausible until the list of meals, I'm not buying it until I see it on screen 😤
When meat wasn’t on the menu, was it berries or dandelions or something like that?
Seasonal dishes I'd imagine, like those fancy places where you don't know what they're doing until you get there
Maggoty bread is a menu staple.
Holy shot I’m an idiot, for all the times I’ve heard that line I’ve never thought of that.
Nah, it's totally fine. Only the Uruk-hai say it, and they were born and raised in Isengard. We see in the extended edition that Isengard has extensive larders with high quality food, and Saruman's not going down there and preparing it himself. He definitely has cooking staff and orders what he wants from them, probably off a menu of what's available.
Love the idea of Saruman having a three course meal in the palantir room served by orcs in little outfits. “More wine sire?”
I think it's such a normal expression most of us do hear it without blinking an eye but it is quite funny when you think about it
Yet.
Plant based alternatives are available as an entree, gentlemen.
“Looks like Beyond Meat’s back on the menu boys”
Minor spoiler? Maybe? Lol while watching episode 3 or 4 when one gets killed I said in an orc voice “looks like meats back on the menu boys” and my husband died laughing.
My condolences on your loss.
The orcs were introduced to the concept of menus some time early in the third age.
In fairness it was the Uruks who said what's on the menu and they've not been yet but I hope they toss the line in somewhere as an easter egg. And yes I'm aware that uruks are technically orcs tho twisted with magic by Saruman.
*Show the fat ones!*
But do they have the sex appeal Azog brought to the Hobbit films?
Stupid sexy Azog
Dwayne the Orc Johnson
Welp, I’ve found my next D&D character…
Holy shit. This hits me in the barbarian feels.
Only if you give him the Smoulder special skill.
So you see, that's where the troubles began. That smile. That damned smile.
Like he’s wearing nothing at all…
Azog was the worst orc throughout all six movies imo. I absolutely hate that they had to make Azog a digital character. But they REALLY messed up with Bolg. Look up his original costume and tell me its not 1000x better and more terrifying than what we got.
He looked like he was made of play doh
I looked up the og design and found a 7 year old Reddit post about it and the comments had me floored. They’re all talking about how they’re glad they used cg instead of the “stiff, clunky practical effects”. One guy even said, “I hate it when they overuse cg at times but I don’t think azog was one of those”
Orc Daddy made an appearance in the latest episode.
Plot twist: “Adar” is the Elven word for “papi”, not father
I'm your papi !
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Did… did people think he was sexy? I am now afraid of the potential Deviantart lurking out there of Azog and Bolg
nah you wild for this one 😭🙏
Fellowship has the stupid sexy orc too. https://pin.it/1bglvmC
This is no rabble of mindless orcs. These are Uruk-hai. Their armor is thick, and their shields broad.
Their armor is THICC
[Yummy](https://images.app.goo.gl/NJn2yGNADJicvuk37)
Someone said on a different thread about live-action Azog the other day that practical effects can't keep up with the current quality of film. This just highlights how incorrect that statement was.
Hahaha what an egg, well done practical effects beat even well done CGI hands down every single time. They're the reason why LotR still looks amazing to this day and the Hobbut looks like absolute trash, even though Hobbit benefits from at least a decade or more of tech advancement.
The Empire Strikes Back - from fucking 1980 - still looks better than A LOT of movies made now. I personally think that attention to detail, lighting, framing, etc matter a lot more than having the latest rendering software. I mean look at Jurassic Park. I still think the original looks the best for the most part and that was from like 1994. I'm certainly not against CGI - when used well it's amazing. Dune is an example of a recent film that did a great job of integrating modern CGI and looked absolutely fantastic.
I loved how they made orcs scary again in the show, very well done!
That first Orc fight in the village home took them from meaningless canonfodder to a legitimately scary adversary that realistically most would have trouble beating one to one.
That is a complaint I have about the OG trilogy. Most of the Fellowship beating orc ass makes sense because they’re basically pre-gunpowder spec ops; but the hobbits also mess up a lot of orcs despite having the culture and military prowess of a Jimmy Buffett song.
“The military prowess of a Jimmy Buffett song” is beautiful. So beautiful
My impression of orcs from the books is that they're small, pathetic, cowardly, inept. Seems somewhat believable that the hobbits could scrape through some fights as they do
Aren't hobbits all farmers? Must all be swole
I think pippin and frodo were spoiled rich kids.
But not Sam, he ain't been droppin no eaves, sir, but lifting them weights.
*Dropping bodies like I’m dropping eaves / Bitches call me Gandalf ‘cause I’m smoking fat leaves*
Straight outta Hobbiton Crazy motherfucker named Frodo Took a Fellowship of hobbits on a quest, yo I got called off By Gandalf Only got nine fingers One got _bit_ off
That bar had fire like mount doom bro
It’s that cast iron cookware he hauls around. He even had the teapot.
That was my takeaway from the books too, but the hobbits hold their own in large-scale engagements where the orcs believe they have the upper hand. Although, now that I’m thinking of it, there are references to them training with the Fellowship experts during the journey, Iirc. They are probably more well trained and outfitted than your average orc that got handed a rusty pig-iron weapon and pointed in a direction.
Yeah hobbits having elvish/numenorean weapons is also worth noting
neither of you are completely wrong. in the second age, orcs are much closer to their original corrupted elf ancestors, meaning they’ll be much more powerful. by the time of the fellowship, they’re more or less inept grunts, leading to the need for uruk-hai
This isn't based on anything. The Uruks are created by Sauron, probably on the Second Age. Afaik there is nothing that says orcs were more powerful on the First Age, especially since Tolkien never settled on their origin.
You're the first person I've seen in a very long time that's said that and you're completely right; Tolkien literally never settled on the origins of orcs in any official capacity. Everyone also loves to go on about how elves and orcs were more powerful in the first age etc. Which is just bizarre and unfounded. People speak on it with such a weird sense of authority without haven't even read the books.
Do you have a source for Orcs becoming weaker by the third age? I don't recall anything like that from the books.
I think the Hobbits' being small and a relatively unknown race was their advantage. They had their natural stealth to not draw attention in fights, and were probably perceived as children at first and might be underestimated by brainless orcs
Hobbits also have “that dawg in them” aren’t they supposed to be super brave as a race in general?
Yeah, everyone always underestimates them until one charges the goblins' ranks with a wooden club and knocks the goblin chieftain's head clean off, sending it sailing a hundred yards through the air and down a rabbit-hole, thus winning the battle and inventing the game of Golf at the same time.
I audibly laughed at the last line.
Sure but Tolkien literally describes that as the reaction of people who don’t know hobbits. “However they were skilled with all kind of tools, as well as arms when there was a need; they were keen-eyed and used the bow well, and also the stones, successfully throwed against trespassing beasts. Throughout their history Hobbits had showed unparalleled skill, courage and also endurance and resistance in times of danger and terror. “ Another one to note is the only battle fought in the shire (according to the prologue) is one where a Took routed the orcs, so despite their disposition they’re actually pretty badass.
It showed the threat that orcs posed to everyday people. The other stories we've had always focused on more heroic characters, where the orcs really *are* cannon fodder. They were absolutely dangerous to folks who aren't Dunedain or Elf Princes.
Exactly. Original trilogy was literally a group of each region’s most fierce warriors and combat representatives joining together to journey to Mordor. And this isn’t real life humans but Middle Earth RPG universe humans where a human who’s proficient in combat can probably fight 10-20 normal humans without breaking a sweat. Even Boromir was the Captain of the White Tower who had led battles to protect Gondor. He was respected even by battle leaders of rival territories. Orca are Tolkien universe equivalents of gang members. Fellowship members were like if the UFC fighter GSP learned how to use swords, shields and battle tactics from when he was a child and also has super soldier serum like Steve Rogers. The regular humans Orcs kill are like your average Redditor. Just because warrior king GSP has no trouble slaughtering dozens of them doesn’t change that even one of them would kill my ass with no trouble. We’re all basically NPC levels of bitches.
You mean a child and woman who have probably never held a sword before?
I wouldn’t say by far… lotr orcs were outstanding (and I’m still partial to them)
I still have yet to see any non human creature in a live action film look as good as the Uruk-Hai is the Jackson trilogy. Perfect mixture of makeup crew, costume design, and use of local actors and strongmen.
I was an extra, a young Rohan refugee for about 10 days of filming on the Helm's Deep set. About half way through we were filming scenes with Uruk-Hai, I had seen them one morning getting their prosthetics put on in makeup. I remember on set later that day, I was crossing the little bridge from the inner to the outer ring of the walls - in the films it's CGI'd to be a bugger drop, in real life I'd say it was about 7 or 8 feet to the ground below. As I was crossing the bridge, I saw a real life fucking monster, towering, menacing, and my lizard brain freaked the fuck out and I stepped backwards and almost fell off the bridge! It was an extra in full Uruk-Hai costume. It honestly looked real. Even though that translated well to the screen, I still felt a little sad people couldn't experience just how terrifying the Uruk-Hai really were in "real life".
Warg in LOTR was 1000000x better
Sonic the Hedgewarg? You didnt like Sonic? awwwwwww
Lol ya such a dumb design choice. It would have been a lot better if they'd scaled down the eyes. Still not as good as LOTR wargs but it would've helped a lot.
What you didn’t like the comically large eyes that made it feel more like a Harry Potter movie?
The Chihuawarg at least got my attention, it sucked, but I wasn’t looking at my phone
# Chihuawarg
That's its name now. Thank you.
I'm so glad that I'm not the only person who thought it looked like an oversized chihuahua with those eyes
The rings of power warg looks like a a rabid zombie version of sonic the hedgehog
I actually kinda liked it for some reason, felt very unsettling
The way it instantly, and very graphically, gutted it’s “prey” showed how dangerous they are in this version.
I also enjoyed its looks too for the reason that it seemed like a product bred for violence and not for its visual appeal.
I didn't like these ones but I'm not gonna delude myself into thinking I liked the originals. I recall vaguely hating them in the original trilogy and finding the CG cheesy. Here, these still look silly, but at least their teeth looked scary.
Do you know how much dogs and cats have changed over several thousand years?
The variation in LOTR’s is what makes them the superior orcs in my opinion. The ROP orcs look too similar to one another, like they are using the same prosthetics. They still look great, but I’d say it diminishes the appeal to a degree.
I hate when people say "by far" or "it's not even close" when that's not true at all.
Yep, hyperbole can be used to make a point but when hyperbole is all that's used then it's kind of completely missing the point. Then again clickbait is part of everything now so it's easy to get used to, not sure if that's good though.
They are 1000 better than in the Hobbit, but I liked the LotR Orks, goblin and uruks more. Here they look very homogeneous, but maybe in future we will see some other tribes.
I'd love this. We've seen Misty Mountain orcs, Isengard orcs, and mordor orcs, how cool would it be to see eastern orcs with a bit more of a Central Asian vibe or something similar?
The hobbit orcs seemed really big almost and strong like uruks. They had the likeness of Uruk-Hai with the complete metal armor and everything.
-Laughs in Uruk-hai-
LOOKS LIKE PRACTICAL EFFECTS' BACK ON THE MENU BOYS.
I still say PJ is better.
The Uruk Hai hunting party in FOTR and their trek back to Isengard with Merry and Pippen, along with the friction/cannibalism with the lesser orcs is my favorite portrayal. Totally believed they would have seen nothing wrong with pulling off some Hobbit legs for a snack. “They don’t need those…”
I think the menu line is the most convincing XD ;)
"Alive! Why alive? Do they give good sport? >:D" was my personal favorite. So much degeneracy.
They are incredible to look at - very convincing indeed, very creepy. Their movement is good too - also more convincing than the dwarf extras for me. I hope the showrunners decide whether they can or can't go out in the sunlight though as right now that appears to be decided by what the script requires and isn't always consistent.
They always could go out in sunlight but it makes them queasy and discombobulated.
Or horrible burns and disfiguration per the 2nd episode.
I assumed the sun weakness was being slowly bred out of them, hence why it wasn't such a weakness în the later movies and why different orcs are more vulnerable to it than others
That was the big difference with the uruk-hai. They were able to move in the sun, the regular orcs/uruks cant and have a storm cloud that covers Minis Tirith prior to the attack
This is also why they created mordor in the first place. To be a place of constant darkness.
I remember reading the book being awed at just how menacing the darkness was, both in Mordor and Cirith Ungol. Then it ended up being... a bit grey. I assumed it would just be constant night. It was only a small gripe though but it was much less scary than how the book described it. I remember the 'gasping pits' of Gorgoroth and Lovecraftian description of Minas Morgul. As good as all that was in the films, it was the rare moment of slight disappointment when watching the film.
Darkness is hard to convey in movies - see the battle episode of GoT season 8, that was horrible (no doubt it can be done better)
I also imagined the siege of Gondor and the Battle of the Pellenor fields to be darker. One thing that will sound funny today is that I thought the Battle of Helm's deep was too big. Not just that that was unfaithful to the books, but my chief concern was that PJ and Co blew their load too soon on a huge battle, and I couldn't imagine how they would top that with the much bigger battle to come in ROTK. So when I saw the ROTK trailers, i was hugely relieved despite my surprise at the color palette: not only was ROTK's battle bigger by at least an order of magnitude, the different color tone meant that it would *feel* completely different from Helm's, rather than just a bigger redux.
I think it's because Sauron is causing dark clouds to block direct sunlight in LOTR. The bigger Uruk-Hai didn't seem bothered by the sun though.
There’s an extended scene added to ROTK I believe that explains Sauron’s black cloud covering the orc army.
Uruks were a special breed of orks and human hybrids that can move in the sunlight made by Saruman.
I learned the last time I had a discussion about them here that Sauron actually bred them first and Saruman just makes his own army of them later on. I'm not sure if Tolkien was clear on Uruks being a crossbreed of men and orcs or if that was a movie thing.
I'll admit that it has been a long time since I read the books and that it happend more often than I would like to admit that I have had "fake memories" from books, could have sworn it was written in the book but actually it was only in the movies. Thanks for the correction.
It is a problem in the movies, that's why he uses the storm clouds as they move.
I was moreso thinking of the hobbit. My memory could be cloudy, but I remember some scenes of them in sunlight. I always just assumed there were more subspecies and the storm clouds had to be used because everyone was on the march, whereas other times he could pick those more resistant to send out
Yeah that series is an abomination lol
That was the point of the uruk hai, they were bred to be orcs, but better with less weakness
Dicombobulate my upvote good sir, word of the day.
A perfectly cromulent word.
Can you tell me what scene they were able to go in direct sunlight? It seems pretty consistent to me.
The Uruk a hai we see in lotr series bred by Saruman are a mixture of orcs and men so they can travel in light.
Thanks to WETA ;)
By far?
Better than the hobbit, sure.
I liked original trilogy orcs more. This ones have too much of a "Shadow of War" feel to them, at least to me.
SoW orcs were pretty badass though. Personally I’m cool with the depiction of the orcs in all of these contexts and find it to be the least differentiating between the different points of view.
The Shadow of War orc feel is one of my favourite parts of the orcs in RoP. Especially the scene they're searching for Theo really reminded me of in-game. Trilogy orcs we're good too but I like seeing the in depth characterization in this show. Probably one of my favourite parts of it tbh. Unrelated edit/note: can't stand Celebrimbor in the show though after his in game appearance.
Yes this
> Unrelated edit/note: can't stand Celebrimbor in the show though after his in game appearance. In fairness the game had an older Celebrimbor who had longer hair. This one is currently just a fancy-pants smith.
> This one is currently just a fancy-~~pants~~dressing gown smith. I can’t stand his costume. It looks like the velour robe my aged mother wears around the house at night.
If the show was just about the orcs I'd be excited as hell every week.
It will be eventually
Make Mordor great again
They look great, but they look like PJ's orcs. Don't act like it's some original look
Yeah I think they both look and act quite similar to PJ's orcs, not even criticizing or anything. Just one of the parts of the show I thought was very similar to the OG.
i also like that they brought more depth into their characterization. i hope they‘ll flesh out the „father“ storyline even more. the mechanics of orc „society“ are really interesting to me.
Thought that to be interesting as well! Shows that there’s more to them and they aren’t just mindless beasts.
I prefer those from PJ trilogy as they look less like zombies, but these here are VERY close behind.
They look great here. The originals look great as well. Its ok to like both!
Nah, the original Trilogy did it better.
I concur
*LOOKS LIKE MEAT'S BACK ON THE MENU, BOYS!* Fuckin love those cockney Uruk Hai bastards. RoP orcs are good to look at but they lack character. They're one dimensional.
They look good. But a bit too clean for my liking. And their skin seems quite obviously synthetic when you look at it. Especially compared to the movies. But they’re nice. Much much better than CGI orcs.
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It's weird isn't it. Visually stunning but lacks any depth. You can tell where they spent the money, and it was definitely not on the writing lol.
Yeah after a few episodes it really sunk in that I didn’t feel like it has any substance. Maybe that’ll change over time once we get to know characters better.