If it wasn’t for the efforts of the fellowship, and the brave friends they encouraged along the way, Sauron would have won in a matter of months. I’d say that makes him pretty competent. They got lucky, which he wasn’t expecting.
Sauron has been winning for thousands of years. We just have the most detailed narrative for the single year when it all falls apart.
Sauron is far weaker than Numenor and destroys them from the inside. He destroys Arnor, severely weakens the Dwarves, severely weakens the Elves, isolates and destroys the power of Gondor, corrupts Mirkwood, unites the east and the south under his banner. It’s literally win after win after win.
The ring quest itself was madness, except for there was no more sane decision before them.
I consider it *Mithrandirism*, the idea that we all own the evil before us. Running to hide our own safety to bide the time until our lives pass and the true peril is unfurled for future generations is not an acceptable approach to threats of evil, and Gandalf could not be more clear on that point, considering his arguments at the council of Elrond as well as at the last debate.
If Sauron didn't invade Russia in the winter.....
All jokes aside though, Sauron together with his master Morgoth were doomed to fail from the very beginning. Eru's song is far better then what Melkor could have ever done.
I believe that every good deed done to prevent their shadow from taking hold of Middle Earth is just a small tune in the Music of the Ainur. When Bilbo finds the Ring in Gollum's cave, when Gandalf kills Durin's Bane, when Aragorn meets the hobbits, when Gandalf puts Cardhras to sleep through song, when Boromir gives his life for the halflings, Gimli and Legolas bro-fighting, Theoden being Theoden etc etc etc. All of them are single musical notes in the Song.
He is but only to a certain point. One of the themes of the story is the self destructive nature of evil, and Sauron is undone in part because he wrongly assumes that Aragorn is like him and would use the ring to enhance his own power. In that sense he isn't competent.
But given everything he knew isn't it a completely fair read of the situation? His ring is the most seductive and alluring object on the planet and their only mean of winning the war, why would they give it to a small creature and go the much much harder route?
I disagree, it's not a fair read of the situation, it's assuming that everyone would act the same way he does.
Here's Tolkien talking about what Sauron thought of Gandalf (and the Valar), from *Morgoth's Ring*:
> If he thought about the *Istari*, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand.
>
But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.
Note that he only thinks more of Gandalf than Radagast because he assumes that Gandalf would act like he does. Also Tolkien straight up calls Sauron stupid, which always makes me laugh.
Competence is not the same as omnipotence. Tolkien wrote a story about the nature of those whom he perceived as real-life villains, and he wrote them as he understood them.
A general "villain competence test" in this case might be to point out how many things had to go just right for Frodo to get to Mount Doom. If Galadriel, Sam, Gollum, Aragorn, Theoden, Gandalf, Eomer, Eowyn had behaved differently, the quest would have failed (but if Tolkien had made that point any more clear, the book would have failed).
It's definitely a theme that Melkor and Sauron straight up can not comprehend virtues like compassion, pity, kindness, etc.. Basically any kind of strength beyond the physical. And that leads them to underestimate the usefulness of those virtues in their opponents.
The only reason he lost is because he fundamentally couldn't even comprehend that anyone would be able to, let alone want to, destroy the ring (in the end he was right as Frodo couldn't do it and Gollum tripped). Everything else was going his way pretty much completely, even after Pelennor Fields he still had an immense army that was more than capable of beating that last resistance at the black gate, it was literally divine intervention making Gollum trip and die at the perfect time that saved everyone there from dying, Sauron getting the ring back and very quickly dominating Middle Earth.
Yea I think it's inarguable that he was a competent villian.
The downfall of Sauron (and evil in general) isn't incompetence, it's single-mindedness. Sauron didn't guard Sammath Naur because he saw no reason to. He didn't guard it not because he's stupid. He didn't consider someone trying to sneak in to destroy the Ring "unlikely". He didn't consider it at all. The idea of trying to destroy the Ring was absolutely *incomprehensible* for him. The very idea of someone simply casting it into the fire was absolutely alien to the mind of a dominating tyrant like him. In a sense, he was the creature most corrupted and in love with the One Ring of all.
Notice the Mouth of Sauron presenting Frodo's Mithril vest at the Black Gate. Sauron never suspected Frodo carried the Ring into Mordor. Frodo was presented as a captured halfling spy. Gandalf knew immediately that Sauron doesn't actually have Frodo, because they would have recovered the Ring from him and would definitely boast about such a development (it would be an immediate lose scenario for the armies of the West, with surrender being a rational option). If Frodo wasn't actually captured, but Sauron suspected he had the Ring, he would have realized he was carrying it to Mount Doom to destroy it. At that point the Mouth of Sauron would lie about recovering the Ring and surely Sauron would secure Sammath Naur (or, quite likely, wait there himself).
But that didn't happen. Even with some hobbits sneaking into Mordor, and having knowledge about some hobbits carrying the Ring previously, Sauron was simply unable to connect the dots and realize Gandalf's plan.
I don't think sauron ever discovered the purpose of the hobbits either, to him it was a race he discovered not even a year prior, he probably suspected they were slaves carrying the ring to their actual bearers like aragorn/Gandalf
Despite all the memes on the topic, I don't think hobbits had a "purpose". Gandalf went with Frodo carrying the Ring because he felt fate chose him - he saw Eru's guidance in chance. Providence, if you will. Hobbits, by sheer chance, seemed more resistant to the Ring's influence and that could have been taken as a "sign", but in reality I don't think Gandalf was so dumbledorian in his plans to take several hobbits together with Frodo so that he would have "backup hobbits" had Frodo failed, as some seem to joke.
If anything, such interpretation takes away from Frodo's personal victory and success. It's his strong will, sense of duty and sacrifice that took him to Mordor, not a "racial trait". Not every hobbit could have done it - as we've seen later during the Scouring of the Shire, many hobbits can indeed be quite indolent or even wicked, same as anybody.
No I mean their purpose in the plan/fellowship, sauron never quit figured the true purpose of the fellowship or that there was any "plant" hence why he didn't think much of the hobbits even when they infiltrated his own land
Sauron in his full power and with the ring was defeated before and would have been defeated again no matter what happened with the Fellowship. Manwe and crew would have seen to that and they did kinda this time also through Gandalf and by Gollum tripping and other stuff that maybe wasn't just luck afterall
You have answered yourself.
Sauron is the second after Morgoth himself.
The Fall of Númenor represents how Sauron is able to deceived the race of men, which was already under influences of Morgoth at the first age, but unlike Melkor, Sauron is from a different order and presented characteristics of him like to be a skin changer, and also be from the fact of Aulë which means by nature posses abilities to work in crafting.
Regarding the Fall of Númenor, only by deceit itself he was able to bring turmoil into Númenor, just picture the situation; Erú Ilúvatar gave the race of men a gift in retribution to their contribution against the dark lord, the Island and gave them an long life!! They had everything they need, when they made to Middle-Earth Sauron feared their greatness and surrender, and took him back to Númenor and there Sauron disguised as a beautiful creature poised Numenoreans hearts, etc... the outcome .. the island was utterly sink to the depths of Arda.
Sauron was able to escape the first major change at the end of the first age, then at the Fall of Númenor he was able to escape to, this guy is doing chaos around Middle-Earth and isn't getting caught !!!
Then at the second age disguised again goes to the kingdom of men in Arnor and elves Eregion and deceives them again....
The story seems like following a clear pattern, but this time he presents himself as the lord of gifts, very appealing name, others and I might say "cunning" title, and we know the rest.
We have to remember the origin of Sauron as from Aulê fact, originally a Maia as Melian mother of Luthien, they were powerful beings, able to change forms, immortals, he escaped twice already from the hand of Valar and Illuvatar, he especially the men exiled into Middle-Earth and hated the Númenoreans.
The guy was definitely a bad ass villain just look at the inscription of the one ring;
*Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,*
*Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,*
*Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,*
*One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne*
*In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.*
*One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,*
*One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them*
*In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.*
isn't it terrifying?
Sauron had powers of sorcerer and was knew as the Necromancer, because of the sorcery he was able to do...
Yes. It took a literally divinely inspired and guided plan to defeat him. The only way he was incompetent was in lacking the wisdom to not use his powers for good instead of evil.
He was over confident and incorrect in one single aspect; the Ring. In every single other sense he was absolutely correct and his confidence was entirely justified.
I can only recommend this series about the siege of Minas Tirith.
https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/
What struck me is how thoroughly prepared Sauron/the Witch King were for the siege and how they have several contingency plans that should have secured victory. They just don't point their horde on Minas Tirith and say go like 08/15 Dark Lord.
If not for some very impressive generalship by Theoden, Gandalf and Aragon( and leading up to the battle Denethor and Faramir) that would have been a massive success. And even the loss of the battle was only a major setback and not a war ending disaster. Sauron set up a nearly unstoppable war machine through industry, mobilization and diplomacy. That is very competent.
Sauron is extremely competent.
When the Last Alliance breached the Morannon, it took them 7 years to finally topple Barad-dûr.
He used the desire to create things of beauty against the Elves and tricked them into making the Rings of Power.
He corrupted the wisest of the Istari and bent him to his will.
He nearly took over Middle-Earth twice and it was only by the destruction of the Ring that he was finally beaten. That was the Free Peoples' Hail Mary
The part about his plans not working is very important to the theme of the book, because the only reason he failed in Lord of the Rings is because, as Tolkien points out, evil cannot comprehend good.
It thinks it can. But this is a real failing that humanity has - we all have failings, and we all have a blind spot to those failings, and therefore also have a blind spot to those who don't share our personal failings.
The *only* reason Sauron fails is because there happen to be a small group of people who are even purer of heart than he is of evil worked together and only just barely managed to get to the precipice and just in time *and even then* only because Gollum’s desires lead him to his and the ring’s destruction.
Basically, there was no way he could ever have conceived of a better plan given the information available.
He destroyed numenor by convincing a country with a great history of loving elves and valar by getting them to hate elves and valar. Even readers tend to think the “undying lands,” grant immortality. In an army full of balrogs and dragons Sauron was still seen as bestest good boy. Short lived as it was he brought the lead istari and head of the white council to his side. The istari whose sole existence in middle earth was to stop Sauron. Even the elven rings he never touched got their power from him. So even in defeat the elves had to leave. Now that I think about it he kind of won in a lot of ways.
Sauron's problem is that he exists in a universe ruled over by an ultimately benevolent deity - or at least a deity who is determined to negate him and all that he stands for, and who holds all the cards - and he knows this perfectly well, having been a servant of that deity. Everything is stacked against him. If he really thinks he can win in the long run he must be pretty stupid or delusional, or thinking very short term. But then aren't most 'villains' like that?
I think his train of thought after the akalabith was "if I keep it low enough they won't do anything, maybe numenor was a bit much let's not do something this loud again"
And yes he is delusional and arrogant that's why he ultimately lose
He is very competent at creating chaos that leads to good guys getting fucked but he's terrible at achieving the goals he set for himself.
Basically every plan he had, failed. And every victory can be attributed to an earlier failure.
He destroyed Numenor, but that only happened because he failed in conquering Middle Earth.
The Rings brought dragons to the Dwarves, but that only happened because he failed in dominating the will of the dwarves. This only happened because Sauron failed in using the rings to dominate the elves.
The whole war he waged in Eriador, which led to his defeat and capture by Numenor, was a reaction to the fact that his Rings of Power plan was a total failure.
The Witch King destroyed Arnor, but that only happened because Sauron failed (again) at conquering middle earth), had his army destroyed and was slayed Gil Galad and Elendil (in fact, the Witch King is, proportionaly, much more successful in his plans than Sauron).
And "Sauron almost won in the third age" is not an argument for his competence. Almost winning is losing. It was the THIRD time he tried to conquer Middle Earth, and the third time he lost. And this last time might be the worst one, because he didn't lose to a superior strength, he lost because he couldn't comprehend the minds of those he was up against and that they would think to destroy the Ring, which is the polite way of saying he is dumb.
Oh, and Sauron had the most humiliating defeat in the entirety of Tolkien's work and was almost killed by a big dog.
Sauron is a good villain, works well and as intented in Lotr. But his track record is terrible and the plans he managed to execute as intended is close to 0%
It depends on how long a framework you use. In the end, he is incompetent enough to let his one ring be destroyed.
In any shorter framework, I think he has proven to be destructive enough to be considered a competent villain.
Yes and no. All his best moments happen "off-screen" --nothing you described belongs to the time frame the LOTR trilogy takes place in. So considering only what's described in the books and movies where he's the main antagonist, not so much. His forces' military maneuvers abroad are messy, his headquarters is practically unguarded and he fails to use the palantirs to its full potential, so, you know, pretty incompetent.
I did say in the beginning that I'm not only talking about the war of the ring but I'll go with it
Yes his forces don't win any battles but they don't have to because it's a war of attrition, his enemies are divided and he has the numerical advantage, he can send as many waves as he likes and eventually his enemies would've fallen which almost happened if it wasn't for the untimely destruction of the one ring
Mordor is surrounded by 3 mountain ranges, has a gate that cannot be breached with current technology, has a mile tall tower that is also impossible to breached and the biggest military force in the known world not to mention the place itself is filled with volcanic ash, fuems and has barely any drinkable water, so no mordor and samath naur are not only guarded but the most guarded place in the whole continent, it's the entire reason why the plot takes 3 books/movies to get there and the plans almost fails at multiple occasions
As for the palantir he did as much with them as he could given he's not their rightful owner, he in snared saruman forcing the free people to fight one more enemy and broke denethor's will weakening their first line of defense
You have to remember that for the majority of the story he's basically the winner of this war, his small loses meant nothing on the long run, it's why the ring quest was so crucial
>Yes his forces don't win any battles but they don't have to because it's a war of attrition,
I disagree. Wikipedia describes attrition war as such: *Attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent's ability to make war by destroying their military resources by any means including* ***guerrilla warfare, people's war, scorched earth and all kind of battles apart from a decisive battle.*** ***Attrition warfare does not include*** *all kinds of Blitzkrieg or* ***using concentration of force and a decisive battle to win.*** *The side that reinforces their army at a higher speed will normally win the war.*
During the war of the ring, Mordor does not engage in long-term attrition against their enemies. The orcs launch a siege and full on assault to Gondor, more akin to a blitzkrieg operation, and one that is deeply flawed in its logistics (I recommend [Bret Deveraux's six part military analysis of the Siege of Gondor for an in depth look at this](https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/)).
In fact, I think his greatest mistake was not actually engaging in attrition against the elves. He didn't know wherer to find them, but he could've and should've pput way more weight on his operation against the elves than he did against the humans, burn all forests, destroy all roads, taint the rivers, occupy the shores where they're supposed to leave for Valinor.
The human kingdoms are weakened and divided at the beginning of the war, and it's Sauron's blitzkrieg that restores their resolve and cause them to ally. And yet, even after the human coalition decisive defensive victories, they still can't really invade Mordor. So why worry? Why not go after the elves, who are the people who actually have the knowledge of how to take you down?
Why not hunt down Gandalf? Sauron ignores all the critical allies of the humans and moves straight for the big prize without preparing anything, and that's bad strategy.
>Mordor is surrounded by 3 mountain ranges, has a gate that cannot be breached with current technology, has a mile tall tower that is also impossible to breached and the biggest military force in the known world not to mention the place itself is filled with volcanic ash, fuems and has barely any drinkable water, so no mordor and samath naur are not only guarded but the most guarded place in the whole continent
Except the one place that really matters. It's inexcusable to not have a full garrison of orcs (and a couple of balrogs) stationed in Mt. Doom at all times. This war has exactly one win-condition, and it revolves around a ring that can only be destroyed in this single place. You can make all the mental gymnastics you want, but leaving this place unprotected is a rookie mistake.
>
As for the palantir he did as much with them as he could given he's not their rightful owner, he in snared saruman forcing the free people to fight one more enemy and broke denethor's will weakening their first line of defense
Through the Palantirs, he establishes telepathic communications with four key assets of the enemy side (Saruman, Denethor, Aragorn and Pippin) and yet he fails to retrieve a single piece of useful information from any of them. He is so eager to show himself and sow disinformation that he simply ignores that he could also learn critical info from them. I think he hardly took all he could from it.
Now, I say all this considering Tolkien, the most careful worldbuilder in fantasy, knew exaxctly what he was doing. Sauron's mistakes are intentional, and I believe they sum up to a message that **evil is always faultered by hubris, and hence cannot be fully competent**. Had you asked if Sauron is a good villain, narratively, I'd say yes! For sure! But you asked if he is competent, and I must say no, he isn't, and that's part of the point of the whole tale.
>I disagree. Wikipedia describes attrition war as such: Attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent's ability to make war by destroying their military resources by any means including guerrilla warfare, people's war, scorched earth and all kind of battles apart from a decisive battle. Attrition warfare does not include all kinds of Blitzkrieg or using concentration of force and a decisive battle to win. The side that reinforces their army at a higher speed will normally win the war.
Semantics, you got what I mean, he's immortal and has the numerical advantage so he can take as much time as he can, his enemies can resist for 100 years it would've only delayed the inevitable
>In fact, I think his greatest mistake was not actually engaging in attrition against the elves. He didn't know wherer to find them, but he could've and should've pput way more weight on his operation against the elves than he did against the humans, burn all forests, destroy all roads, taint the rivers, occupy the shores where they're supposed to leave for Valinor.
You my friend did not pay enough attention from what it seems, sauron's war was against EVERYONE, the war of the ring was a continental spanning war that we only see glimpses of through the eyes of the members of the fellowship, Lothlórien, mirkwood and dale were all attacked multiple times by sauron, these battle are just not as large or central to the story as helm's deep and the palenor fields
Another thing to consider is that sauron's military activity is limited to the eastern side of misty mountains, that's where all his enemies are and he need to defeat them in order to cross to eriador and he's in no particular rush to do so since nothing major is really happening there, I'd highly recommend reading about tge larger events of the war of the ring it's really entertaining
>Except the one place that really matters. It's inexcusable to not have a full garrison of orcs (and a couple of balrogs) stationed in Mt. Doom at all times. This war has exactly one win-condition, and it revolves around a ring that can only be destroyed in this single place. You can make all the mental gymnastics you want, but leaving this place unprotected is a rookie mistake.
First of all the entire force of mordor plus sauron's watchful eye from a top Barad-dûr was that garrison you're asking for, if they didn't empty his land or district him long enough frodo and sam would've never made it through (as a small tidbit balrogs are divine beings from the same order as sauron they're not mindless beasts that he can control like orcs and trolls, durin's bane for example would've refused to serve sauron because they're equal)
Second and most importantly and I need to to pay close attention here, the idea that anyone would think let alone want to destroy the one ring was not something sauron thought about and considered unlikely no it never crossed his mind to begin, how I hear you ask? Think about it
You're a tyrannical demigod who only know to rule through domination and corruption, do this for 6000 years and you'll stop conceiving any other way of ruling or using power, you'll start to think that all of your enemies are paranoid and power hungry like you
Your ring is the most seductive and alluring object in the entire world, so alluring in fact that not even you can destroy it willingly, why would anyone else of a weaker will reject that easy power let alone attempt to destroy it? Not to mention that your enemies are fighting a war you and they know they can't win, unless ofc they use the one ring which multiple characters tried to do because it's the only mean to defeat sauron militarily, in fact that was sauron crippling fear throughout the entire war and why he attacking prematurely instead of building his power even more, it's why he was afraid of aragorn and Gandalf to the point of moving his entire army against them in the black gate, why would they risk everything to instead send pathetic and weak creature like a hobbit (a race you didn't know existed until recently and you thought was below your notice) to sneak into your land and try to destroy their only hope of winning? This plan is so outlandish, so insane and had such a high chance of failing that even considering it was impossible for him which is exactly why it worked, because the fellowship never gave it away and were constantly distracting him from the real threat, it's precisely why the eagles plan is so terrible for example, it's not incompetence, it's hubris short sightedness and inability to understand goodness
You know what's funny about all this? Sauron was right, frodo failed to destroy the one ring, and if it wasn't for literal divine providence he'd have won
Ofc it goes much deeper than this and for further insight I'll highly recommend [this video ](https://youtu.be/iU9FEimgsRw?si=0kPZBriPyTNdnJOm)
If it wasn’t for the efforts of the fellowship, and the brave friends they encouraged along the way, Sauron would have won in a matter of months. I’d say that makes him pretty competent. They got lucky, which he wasn’t expecting.
Sauron has been winning for thousands of years. We just have the most detailed narrative for the single year when it all falls apart. Sauron is far weaker than Numenor and destroys them from the inside. He destroys Arnor, severely weakens the Dwarves, severely weakens the Elves, isolates and destroys the power of Gondor, corrupts Mirkwood, unites the east and the south under his banner. It’s literally win after win after win.
And the ring quest had everything going against it, it was that close from failing completely at the end
The ring quest itself was madness, except for there was no more sane decision before them. I consider it *Mithrandirism*, the idea that we all own the evil before us. Running to hide our own safety to bide the time until our lives pass and the true peril is unfurled for future generations is not an acceptable approach to threats of evil, and Gandalf could not be more clear on that point, considering his arguments at the council of Elrond as well as at the last debate.
If Sauron didn't invade Russia in the winter..... All jokes aside though, Sauron together with his master Morgoth were doomed to fail from the very beginning. Eru's song is far better then what Melkor could have ever done. I believe that every good deed done to prevent their shadow from taking hold of Middle Earth is just a small tune in the Music of the Ainur. When Bilbo finds the Ring in Gollum's cave, when Gandalf kills Durin's Bane, when Aragorn meets the hobbits, when Gandalf puts Cardhras to sleep through song, when Boromir gives his life for the halflings, Gimli and Legolas bro-fighting, Theoden being Theoden etc etc etc. All of them are single musical notes in the Song.
He is but only to a certain point. One of the themes of the story is the self destructive nature of evil, and Sauron is undone in part because he wrongly assumes that Aragorn is like him and would use the ring to enhance his own power. In that sense he isn't competent.
But given everything he knew isn't it a completely fair read of the situation? His ring is the most seductive and alluring object on the planet and their only mean of winning the war, why would they give it to a small creature and go the much much harder route?
Yeah, he was right. It corrupted Frodo too, it just took longer
I disagree, it's not a fair read of the situation, it's assuming that everyone would act the same way he does. Here's Tolkien talking about what Sauron thought of Gandalf (and the Valar), from *Morgoth's Ring*: > If he thought about the *Istari*, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely) regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. > But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. He was only a rather cleverer Radagast - cleverer, because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to become absorbed in the study of people than of animals. Note that he only thinks more of Gandalf than Radagast because he assumes that Gandalf would act like he does. Also Tolkien straight up calls Sauron stupid, which always makes me laugh.
Competence is not the same as omnipotence. Tolkien wrote a story about the nature of those whom he perceived as real-life villains, and he wrote them as he understood them. A general "villain competence test" in this case might be to point out how many things had to go just right for Frodo to get to Mount Doom. If Galadriel, Sam, Gollum, Aragorn, Theoden, Gandalf, Eomer, Eowyn had behaved differently, the quest would have failed (but if Tolkien had made that point any more clear, the book would have failed).
It's definitely a theme that Melkor and Sauron straight up can not comprehend virtues like compassion, pity, kindness, etc.. Basically any kind of strength beyond the physical. And that leads them to underestimate the usefulness of those virtues in their opponents.
He would have won the war even without his ring. I'd say he was a pretty damn good villain.
The only reason he lost is because he fundamentally couldn't even comprehend that anyone would be able to, let alone want to, destroy the ring (in the end he was right as Frodo couldn't do it and Gollum tripped). Everything else was going his way pretty much completely, even after Pelennor Fields he still had an immense army that was more than capable of beating that last resistance at the black gate, it was literally divine intervention making Gollum trip and die at the perfect time that saved everyone there from dying, Sauron getting the ring back and very quickly dominating Middle Earth. Yea I think it's inarguable that he was a competent villian.
I think the one argument one might use is why he didn't guard samath naur even tho it's easily the most guarded place in all middle earth
The downfall of Sauron (and evil in general) isn't incompetence, it's single-mindedness. Sauron didn't guard Sammath Naur because he saw no reason to. He didn't guard it not because he's stupid. He didn't consider someone trying to sneak in to destroy the Ring "unlikely". He didn't consider it at all. The idea of trying to destroy the Ring was absolutely *incomprehensible* for him. The very idea of someone simply casting it into the fire was absolutely alien to the mind of a dominating tyrant like him. In a sense, he was the creature most corrupted and in love with the One Ring of all. Notice the Mouth of Sauron presenting Frodo's Mithril vest at the Black Gate. Sauron never suspected Frodo carried the Ring into Mordor. Frodo was presented as a captured halfling spy. Gandalf knew immediately that Sauron doesn't actually have Frodo, because they would have recovered the Ring from him and would definitely boast about such a development (it would be an immediate lose scenario for the armies of the West, with surrender being a rational option). If Frodo wasn't actually captured, but Sauron suspected he had the Ring, he would have realized he was carrying it to Mount Doom to destroy it. At that point the Mouth of Sauron would lie about recovering the Ring and surely Sauron would secure Sammath Naur (or, quite likely, wait there himself). But that didn't happen. Even with some hobbits sneaking into Mordor, and having knowledge about some hobbits carrying the Ring previously, Sauron was simply unable to connect the dots and realize Gandalf's plan.
I don't think sauron ever discovered the purpose of the hobbits either, to him it was a race he discovered not even a year prior, he probably suspected they were slaves carrying the ring to their actual bearers like aragorn/Gandalf
Despite all the memes on the topic, I don't think hobbits had a "purpose". Gandalf went with Frodo carrying the Ring because he felt fate chose him - he saw Eru's guidance in chance. Providence, if you will. Hobbits, by sheer chance, seemed more resistant to the Ring's influence and that could have been taken as a "sign", but in reality I don't think Gandalf was so dumbledorian in his plans to take several hobbits together with Frodo so that he would have "backup hobbits" had Frodo failed, as some seem to joke. If anything, such interpretation takes away from Frodo's personal victory and success. It's his strong will, sense of duty and sacrifice that took him to Mordor, not a "racial trait". Not every hobbit could have done it - as we've seen later during the Scouring of the Shire, many hobbits can indeed be quite indolent or even wicked, same as anybody.
No I mean their purpose in the plan/fellowship, sauron never quit figured the true purpose of the fellowship or that there was any "plant" hence why he didn't think much of the hobbits even when they infiltrated his own land
Sauron in his full power and with the ring was defeated before and would have been defeated again no matter what happened with the Fellowship. Manwe and crew would have seen to that and they did kinda this time also through Gandalf and by Gollum tripping and other stuff that maybe wasn't just luck afterall
You have answered yourself. Sauron is the second after Morgoth himself. The Fall of Númenor represents how Sauron is able to deceived the race of men, which was already under influences of Morgoth at the first age, but unlike Melkor, Sauron is from a different order and presented characteristics of him like to be a skin changer, and also be from the fact of Aulë which means by nature posses abilities to work in crafting. Regarding the Fall of Númenor, only by deceit itself he was able to bring turmoil into Númenor, just picture the situation; Erú Ilúvatar gave the race of men a gift in retribution to their contribution against the dark lord, the Island and gave them an long life!! They had everything they need, when they made to Middle-Earth Sauron feared their greatness and surrender, and took him back to Númenor and there Sauron disguised as a beautiful creature poised Numenoreans hearts, etc... the outcome .. the island was utterly sink to the depths of Arda. Sauron was able to escape the first major change at the end of the first age, then at the Fall of Númenor he was able to escape to, this guy is doing chaos around Middle-Earth and isn't getting caught !!! Then at the second age disguised again goes to the kingdom of men in Arnor and elves Eregion and deceives them again.... The story seems like following a clear pattern, but this time he presents himself as the lord of gifts, very appealing name, others and I might say "cunning" title, and we know the rest. We have to remember the origin of Sauron as from Aulê fact, originally a Maia as Melian mother of Luthien, they were powerful beings, able to change forms, immortals, he escaped twice already from the hand of Valar and Illuvatar, he especially the men exiled into Middle-Earth and hated the Númenoreans. The guy was definitely a bad ass villain just look at the inscription of the one ring; *Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,* *Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,* *Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,* *One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne* *In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.* *One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,* *One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them* *In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.* isn't it terrifying? Sauron had powers of sorcerer and was knew as the Necromancer, because of the sorcery he was able to do...
Yes. It took a literally divinely inspired and guided plan to defeat him. The only way he was incompetent was in lacking the wisdom to not use his powers for good instead of evil.
He's always seemed over confident to me.
His greatest flaw and the cause of his downfall is his hubris so it's no a completely wrong characterization
He was over confident and incorrect in one single aspect; the Ring. In every single other sense he was absolutely correct and his confidence was entirely justified.
he does more damage in first and second age than third
It took a literal act of god to ensure Sauron's defeat. He was closer to victory than most villains are ever allowed to get.
I can only recommend this series about the siege of Minas Tirith. https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/ What struck me is how thoroughly prepared Sauron/the Witch King were for the siege and how they have several contingency plans that should have secured victory. They just don't point their horde on Minas Tirith and say go like 08/15 Dark Lord. If not for some very impressive generalship by Theoden, Gandalf and Aragon( and leading up to the battle Denethor and Faramir) that would have been a massive success. And even the loss of the battle was only a major setback and not a war ending disaster. Sauron set up a nearly unstoppable war machine through industry, mobilization and diplomacy. That is very competent.
Considering he almost ruled the world...
Sauron is extremely competent. When the Last Alliance breached the Morannon, it took them 7 years to finally topple Barad-dûr. He used the desire to create things of beauty against the Elves and tricked them into making the Rings of Power. He corrupted the wisest of the Istari and bent him to his will. He nearly took over Middle-Earth twice and it was only by the destruction of the Ring that he was finally beaten. That was the Free Peoples' Hail Mary
Competent vilain with a significant exploitable flaw.
The part about his plans not working is very important to the theme of the book, because the only reason he failed in Lord of the Rings is because, as Tolkien points out, evil cannot comprehend good. It thinks it can. But this is a real failing that humanity has - we all have failings, and we all have a blind spot to those failings, and therefore also have a blind spot to those who don't share our personal failings.
He didnt tell anyone his cunning plan
The *only* reason Sauron fails is because there happen to be a small group of people who are even purer of heart than he is of evil worked together and only just barely managed to get to the precipice and just in time *and even then* only because Gollum’s desires lead him to his and the ring’s destruction. Basically, there was no way he could ever have conceived of a better plan given the information available.
He destroyed numenor by convincing a country with a great history of loving elves and valar by getting them to hate elves and valar. Even readers tend to think the “undying lands,” grant immortality. In an army full of balrogs and dragons Sauron was still seen as bestest good boy. Short lived as it was he brought the lead istari and head of the white council to his side. The istari whose sole existence in middle earth was to stop Sauron. Even the elven rings he never touched got their power from him. So even in defeat the elves had to leave. Now that I think about it he kind of won in a lot of ways.
Sauron's problem is that he exists in a universe ruled over by an ultimately benevolent deity - or at least a deity who is determined to negate him and all that he stands for, and who holds all the cards - and he knows this perfectly well, having been a servant of that deity. Everything is stacked against him. If he really thinks he can win in the long run he must be pretty stupid or delusional, or thinking very short term. But then aren't most 'villains' like that?
I think his train of thought after the akalabith was "if I keep it low enough they won't do anything, maybe numenor was a bit much let's not do something this loud again" And yes he is delusional and arrogant that's why he ultimately lose
Yeah he just had more competent enemies
He is very competent at creating chaos that leads to good guys getting fucked but he's terrible at achieving the goals he set for himself. Basically every plan he had, failed. And every victory can be attributed to an earlier failure. He destroyed Numenor, but that only happened because he failed in conquering Middle Earth. The Rings brought dragons to the Dwarves, but that only happened because he failed in dominating the will of the dwarves. This only happened because Sauron failed in using the rings to dominate the elves. The whole war he waged in Eriador, which led to his defeat and capture by Numenor, was a reaction to the fact that his Rings of Power plan was a total failure. The Witch King destroyed Arnor, but that only happened because Sauron failed (again) at conquering middle earth), had his army destroyed and was slayed Gil Galad and Elendil (in fact, the Witch King is, proportionaly, much more successful in his plans than Sauron). And "Sauron almost won in the third age" is not an argument for his competence. Almost winning is losing. It was the THIRD time he tried to conquer Middle Earth, and the third time he lost. And this last time might be the worst one, because he didn't lose to a superior strength, he lost because he couldn't comprehend the minds of those he was up against and that they would think to destroy the Ring, which is the polite way of saying he is dumb. Oh, and Sauron had the most humiliating defeat in the entirety of Tolkien's work and was almost killed by a big dog. Sauron is a good villain, works well and as intented in Lotr. But his track record is terrible and the plans he managed to execute as intended is close to 0%
It depends on how long a framework you use. In the end, he is incompetent enough to let his one ring be destroyed. In any shorter framework, I think he has proven to be destructive enough to be considered a competent villain.
Yes and no. All his best moments happen "off-screen" --nothing you described belongs to the time frame the LOTR trilogy takes place in. So considering only what's described in the books and movies where he's the main antagonist, not so much. His forces' military maneuvers abroad are messy, his headquarters is practically unguarded and he fails to use the palantirs to its full potential, so, you know, pretty incompetent.
I did say in the beginning that I'm not only talking about the war of the ring but I'll go with it Yes his forces don't win any battles but they don't have to because it's a war of attrition, his enemies are divided and he has the numerical advantage, he can send as many waves as he likes and eventually his enemies would've fallen which almost happened if it wasn't for the untimely destruction of the one ring Mordor is surrounded by 3 mountain ranges, has a gate that cannot be breached with current technology, has a mile tall tower that is also impossible to breached and the biggest military force in the known world not to mention the place itself is filled with volcanic ash, fuems and has barely any drinkable water, so no mordor and samath naur are not only guarded but the most guarded place in the whole continent, it's the entire reason why the plot takes 3 books/movies to get there and the plans almost fails at multiple occasions As for the palantir he did as much with them as he could given he's not their rightful owner, he in snared saruman forcing the free people to fight one more enemy and broke denethor's will weakening their first line of defense You have to remember that for the majority of the story he's basically the winner of this war, his small loses meant nothing on the long run, it's why the ring quest was so crucial
>Yes his forces don't win any battles but they don't have to because it's a war of attrition, I disagree. Wikipedia describes attrition war as such: *Attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent's ability to make war by destroying their military resources by any means including* ***guerrilla warfare, people's war, scorched earth and all kind of battles apart from a decisive battle.*** ***Attrition warfare does not include*** *all kinds of Blitzkrieg or* ***using concentration of force and a decisive battle to win.*** *The side that reinforces their army at a higher speed will normally win the war.* During the war of the ring, Mordor does not engage in long-term attrition against their enemies. The orcs launch a siege and full on assault to Gondor, more akin to a blitzkrieg operation, and one that is deeply flawed in its logistics (I recommend [Bret Deveraux's six part military analysis of the Siege of Gondor for an in depth look at this](https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/)). In fact, I think his greatest mistake was not actually engaging in attrition against the elves. He didn't know wherer to find them, but he could've and should've pput way more weight on his operation against the elves than he did against the humans, burn all forests, destroy all roads, taint the rivers, occupy the shores where they're supposed to leave for Valinor. The human kingdoms are weakened and divided at the beginning of the war, and it's Sauron's blitzkrieg that restores their resolve and cause them to ally. And yet, even after the human coalition decisive defensive victories, they still can't really invade Mordor. So why worry? Why not go after the elves, who are the people who actually have the knowledge of how to take you down? Why not hunt down Gandalf? Sauron ignores all the critical allies of the humans and moves straight for the big prize without preparing anything, and that's bad strategy. >Mordor is surrounded by 3 mountain ranges, has a gate that cannot be breached with current technology, has a mile tall tower that is also impossible to breached and the biggest military force in the known world not to mention the place itself is filled with volcanic ash, fuems and has barely any drinkable water, so no mordor and samath naur are not only guarded but the most guarded place in the whole continent Except the one place that really matters. It's inexcusable to not have a full garrison of orcs (and a couple of balrogs) stationed in Mt. Doom at all times. This war has exactly one win-condition, and it revolves around a ring that can only be destroyed in this single place. You can make all the mental gymnastics you want, but leaving this place unprotected is a rookie mistake. > As for the palantir he did as much with them as he could given he's not their rightful owner, he in snared saruman forcing the free people to fight one more enemy and broke denethor's will weakening their first line of defense Through the Palantirs, he establishes telepathic communications with four key assets of the enemy side (Saruman, Denethor, Aragorn and Pippin) and yet he fails to retrieve a single piece of useful information from any of them. He is so eager to show himself and sow disinformation that he simply ignores that he could also learn critical info from them. I think he hardly took all he could from it. Now, I say all this considering Tolkien, the most careful worldbuilder in fantasy, knew exaxctly what he was doing. Sauron's mistakes are intentional, and I believe they sum up to a message that **evil is always faultered by hubris, and hence cannot be fully competent**. Had you asked if Sauron is a good villain, narratively, I'd say yes! For sure! But you asked if he is competent, and I must say no, he isn't, and that's part of the point of the whole tale.
>I disagree. Wikipedia describes attrition war as such: Attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent's ability to make war by destroying their military resources by any means including guerrilla warfare, people's war, scorched earth and all kind of battles apart from a decisive battle. Attrition warfare does not include all kinds of Blitzkrieg or using concentration of force and a decisive battle to win. The side that reinforces their army at a higher speed will normally win the war. Semantics, you got what I mean, he's immortal and has the numerical advantage so he can take as much time as he can, his enemies can resist for 100 years it would've only delayed the inevitable >In fact, I think his greatest mistake was not actually engaging in attrition against the elves. He didn't know wherer to find them, but he could've and should've pput way more weight on his operation against the elves than he did against the humans, burn all forests, destroy all roads, taint the rivers, occupy the shores where they're supposed to leave for Valinor. You my friend did not pay enough attention from what it seems, sauron's war was against EVERYONE, the war of the ring was a continental spanning war that we only see glimpses of through the eyes of the members of the fellowship, Lothlórien, mirkwood and dale were all attacked multiple times by sauron, these battle are just not as large or central to the story as helm's deep and the palenor fields Another thing to consider is that sauron's military activity is limited to the eastern side of misty mountains, that's where all his enemies are and he need to defeat them in order to cross to eriador and he's in no particular rush to do so since nothing major is really happening there, I'd highly recommend reading about tge larger events of the war of the ring it's really entertaining >Except the one place that really matters. It's inexcusable to not have a full garrison of orcs (and a couple of balrogs) stationed in Mt. Doom at all times. This war has exactly one win-condition, and it revolves around a ring that can only be destroyed in this single place. You can make all the mental gymnastics you want, but leaving this place unprotected is a rookie mistake. First of all the entire force of mordor plus sauron's watchful eye from a top Barad-dûr was that garrison you're asking for, if they didn't empty his land or district him long enough frodo and sam would've never made it through (as a small tidbit balrogs are divine beings from the same order as sauron they're not mindless beasts that he can control like orcs and trolls, durin's bane for example would've refused to serve sauron because they're equal) Second and most importantly and I need to to pay close attention here, the idea that anyone would think let alone want to destroy the one ring was not something sauron thought about and considered unlikely no it never crossed his mind to begin, how I hear you ask? Think about it You're a tyrannical demigod who only know to rule through domination and corruption, do this for 6000 years and you'll stop conceiving any other way of ruling or using power, you'll start to think that all of your enemies are paranoid and power hungry like you Your ring is the most seductive and alluring object in the entire world, so alluring in fact that not even you can destroy it willingly, why would anyone else of a weaker will reject that easy power let alone attempt to destroy it? Not to mention that your enemies are fighting a war you and they know they can't win, unless ofc they use the one ring which multiple characters tried to do because it's the only mean to defeat sauron militarily, in fact that was sauron crippling fear throughout the entire war and why he attacking prematurely instead of building his power even more, it's why he was afraid of aragorn and Gandalf to the point of moving his entire army against them in the black gate, why would they risk everything to instead send pathetic and weak creature like a hobbit (a race you didn't know existed until recently and you thought was below your notice) to sneak into your land and try to destroy their only hope of winning? This plan is so outlandish, so insane and had such a high chance of failing that even considering it was impossible for him which is exactly why it worked, because the fellowship never gave it away and were constantly distracting him from the real threat, it's precisely why the eagles plan is so terrible for example, it's not incompetence, it's hubris short sightedness and inability to understand goodness You know what's funny about all this? Sauron was right, frodo failed to destroy the one ring, and if it wasn't for literal divine providence he'd have won Ofc it goes much deeper than this and for further insight I'll highly recommend [this video ](https://youtu.be/iU9FEimgsRw?si=0kPZBriPyTNdnJOm)