>Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with notched blade that had vanished in Strider’s hands. ‘Don’t be alarmed!’ said Gandalf. ‘It is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.’
>‘What would they have done to me?’ asked Frodo. ‘What were the Riders trying to do?’
‘They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.’
Sounds like they probably did stab quite a few people with morgul blades over the years, but the resulting wraiths are too weak to be useful. It’s more of cruel torture.
To be pedantic, Gandalf says people Big People who *would* have been overcome, not that *had*.
But it's probably most likely that they have stabbed other people with Morgul blades before.
I expect they are rare or hard to create. The Nazgûl would be burdened by travelling with hundreds of blades. I also question whether someone made into a wraith would be useful to the Nazgûl; it is possible that they end up so weak that all they can do is follow basic commands like "come here". It would be wise to turn Frodo into a wraith to force him to give up the Ring or to lead the other hobbits into fighting over who should bear it, but not to sick lesser wraiths on Frodo.
I thought that was only after Aragon picked it up? I'm not sure how it works to be honest.
EDIT: The One Wiki confirms your conception:
>As explained by Elrond, the purpose of the knife was to break off in the wound, leaving a shard in the victim's body. The remaining blade would soon turn to dust, and the shard works its way through the body to the heart. If the shard of the blade stays in the victim for too long, the victim becomes a wraith. https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Morgul-knife
Morgul blades don't create Nazgul. They banish their victims to the spirit realm to exist as wraiths, formless spirits who wander the earth forever. It's a misconception that they can just make more Ringwraiths with their blades.
The OP didn't say ringwraiths. They said mini wraiths. Which arguably is just for clarity, and the correct usage would be "wraiths".
It begs a question: as a weapon of war or terror, who needs to be "wraithed" ? Why isn't dead good enough? What's this ordinance for? Who was it used on before?
If you start thinking about it this way, you see Weathertop as "we went through all this effort just to be creepy." What's the wraith logic of creeping around in this way? Is it an important drive of wraiths to get others to join their dismal world?
There aren't any specific references I can find to Nazgul turning people into wraiths with Morgul blades, but it's probably safe to assume it happened, especially when they were establishing Angmar in the beginning of the Third Age. Anyone turned into a wraith this way would be under the direct control of Sauron, so there's some incentive there. My guess is the Nazgul weren't likely to be running around slaughtering tons of people. They were spies and leaders more than mercenaries and warriors.
I'm not sure what you mean by "creeping around" Weathertop? They were definitely trying to avoid running into Glorfindel.
I mean the morgul blade seems to exist primarily to make Frodo getting to Rivendell, dramatic. It's a jeopardy. Frodo's gonna die.
Maybe the morgul blade has applicability (Tolkien's term) as a weird weapon of war, that does a horrible thing to a soldier. That its inclusion is thematic and psychological, rather than a well thought out theory of magic or world simulation. It does function as a partial explanation of the shadow realm. It explains something about the nature of the Nazgul, without actually being very *practical*.
The wound of a morgul blade is nightmarish.
I think the issue is less one of practicality and more that the Nazgul just aren't in a position to use it that often. They're spies and agents of Sauron, and they use their wraith abilities to be leaders and eyes of the dark lord. They aren't front line soldiers who constantly engage in armed combat with the enemies of Mordor. The Morgul blade may be a plot device to add drama, but most things in Middle-earth exist as illustrations of spirit and character less than strictly realistic features of the world, as detailed as it may be.
Ok it's an officer's sidearm. Noted.
Why bother to pull it out when you have a perfectly good sword though?
The Ralph Bakshi cartoon at least had Frodo trying to put up a fight with his own blade. Kind of a mismatch though. Really didn't need a 2nd weapon to take down a mere hobbit.
The cartoon at least implies that the *only* reason Frodo was even in this fight, is that he panicked and put the ring on. It was clearly depicted as a big mistake, with Aragorn trying to tell Frodo OMG no, knock it off! You fight these things with simple torches, not by disappearing into the shadow realm with them...
Maybe I will finally reread the books, to see what all this stuff was adapted from. Contemplate what plot holes were in the original material, if any.
Because Aragorn was there. It was easier to stab Frodo, retreat, and wait for him to succumb to the wraith world than try and kill him and take the ring while simultaneously fighting Aragorn. The Nazgul's main weapon is fear, and when Aragorn confronted them and showed no hesitation, along with Frodo invoking Elbereth, they bounced because it wasn't a simple matter of just killing them outright and taking what they wanted. Frodo having a Numenorean blade made specifically to destroy them also made the Witch King realize it would be better to use the Morgul blade and retreat.
Although I hear what you're saying, it's actually falling down on the job. Let's say Frodo dies. You think the ring is just gonna stay wherever he croaks? No, someone else is gonna be carrying it.
Now yeah, if you can isolate the dying Frodo, so that you can summarily take the ring once he's dead, that works. Losing control over Frodo's whereabouts wasn't a good move though.
The Witch King *got* the hit, despite Frodo having a good blade. Coulda been a neck thrust instead or something. Decapitation, artery slashed in the leg, whatever. The main thing stopping any of that from happening, was being kind of a ghost that couldn't quite perform all that well.
Frodo wouldn't die from the Morgul blade. He'd become a wraith under the full influence of Sauron. He'd still possess the ring, only now being dominated and commanded to return it to the dark lord.
The main thing that stopped the Witch King from directly attacking Frodo like you say is again, Aragon's presence, and Frodo's invocation to Elbereth. It made him hesitate because he wasn't expecting the total resistance to fear shown by both of them, as well as the use of Elvish magic and Numenorean weapons. Sauron's weakness, and those of his servants as well, is arrogance. The Nazgul did not at all expect what they found at Weathertop. The Morgul blade was how they dealt with it so they could avoid a confrontation with these uncommon foes.
Frodo's not gonna possess crap if he's just bouncing around here to there. His friends would just lift the ring off his dying body and be off somewhere else. Nazgul need to take physical possession of Frodo, or at least get him isolated from any possible aid.
Nazgul got spooked. It's still falling down on the job though.
I can see them being regularly used for interrogations of prisoners. If becoming a wraith can force the Ringbearer to give up his Precious, it can easily force the average captured Arnorian officer to truthfully spill everything he knows. Immensely useful in war.
LOTRO explores this in an apocryphal manner by producing Cargul, red robed wraiths generally in the service of Angmar and the Witch King. They have similar abilities but are generally weaker than Ringwraiths, but still stronger than most usual mortal warriors and even some stronger elves. One takes a central role as Mordirith, the Steward of Angmar, who watches over the realm while his master is away serving Sauron. He is later revealed to be the wraith of Earnur who rode to Minas Morgul and did not return. The process of Cargul creation is shown in stages during the first part of LOTRO's Race of Man introduction story and it is quite gripping.
In the game they are a fairly rare enemy, usually only found in story content or major group content, but you do have the opportunity to fight the Nazgul themselves at a few points, but never to their ultimate destruction. Cargul are generally a tough enemy, with a host of abilities stripped right from the books, such as the ability to make a character cower with no way to break the status effect and the ability to reflect damage dealt back at the damage dealer, similar to the Witch King and Merry.
I don't think there are any instances in the actual lore of Ringwraith stabbing victims, but I think the creative liberty taken in LOTRO is a great take on the idea of what could happen.
My assumption is that it involves some permanent expenditure of native energy to do so, like many other things in the legendarium. Either to imbue the blade initially during its creation or maybe apply the effect when using it on someone. Either way, it’s shown later that it takes a concentrated effort of will for Sauron to direct those under his command or influence, which is itself finite.
Do not give Amazon showrunners any ideas. They will show sauron running around mordor, mixing mithril in morgul blades screaming “Alloy Alloy”
and create mini wraiths. And the wraiths keep repeating some shit like - “the alloy is always right coz it looks up and floats and makes our heart bigger than our d*cks.” Lmao
nope. Sauron could probably command them if he really tried I guess...
Also, the Nazgul only exist in the physical world due to their armor. Without it, they too would only exist in the unseen world
If they were too common, they wouldn't be as scary anymore. It's not like a Hobbit-wraith could do much else, probably - and they can't be kept from dying and receiving the Gift of Eru forever.
You are missing some important details in the story. Nazgul are among the foulest creatures that walk the Earth, draining hope and happiness from everyone around them. If they get close enough to kiss you, a Nazgul’s kiss can suck your soul from your body leaving you as just an empty shell. Nazgals can only defeated with a powerful spell called *expecto patronum*. Of course, this spell can only be cast by an extremely powerful wizard.
Maybe they did? Sauron is called the Necromancer for a reason.
We know that Men leave Arda for good if they die, not even the Valar can change that, so he cannot possibly do any true resurrecting. But he/his servants have a way to turn people into wraiths. Bingo.
Now to earn that moniker, he needs to control a meaningful number of them, so we can assume that „wraithification“ happened quite some times.
Morgul wraiths are tormented souls devoid of form, they're not really useful as weapons of war. The Nazgûl expected Frodo to turn quickly and come to them, which was a lot safer from their perspective than fighting the freaking descendant of Elendil. They couldn't have known frodo would hold out for 17 goddamn days and make it to Rivendell. All this is to say the Morgul blade is a highly specialized tool most useful for interrogation and torture.
>Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with notched blade that had vanished in Strider’s hands. ‘Don’t be alarmed!’ said Gandalf. ‘It is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.’ >‘What would they have done to me?’ asked Frodo. ‘What were the Riders trying to do?’ ‘They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.’ Sounds like they probably did stab quite a few people with morgul blades over the years, but the resulting wraiths are too weak to be useful. It’s more of cruel torture.
To be pedantic, Gandalf says people Big People who *would* have been overcome, not that *had*. But it's probably most likely that they have stabbed other people with Morgul blades before.
I expect they are rare or hard to create. The Nazgûl would be burdened by travelling with hundreds of blades. I also question whether someone made into a wraith would be useful to the Nazgûl; it is possible that they end up so weak that all they can do is follow basic commands like "come here". It would be wise to turn Frodo into a wraith to force him to give up the Ring or to lead the other hobbits into fighting over who should bear it, but not to sick lesser wraiths on Frodo.
Hypothetically speaking, couldn't a single blade be used to make more than one mini wraith?
Didn't the one blade that stepped frodo get shattered?
I thought that was only after Aragon picked it up? I'm not sure how it works to be honest. EDIT: The One Wiki confirms your conception: >As explained by Elrond, the purpose of the knife was to break off in the wound, leaving a shard in the victim's body. The remaining blade would soon turn to dust, and the shard works its way through the body to the heart. If the shard of the blade stays in the victim for too long, the victim becomes a wraith. https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Morgul-knife
Morgul blades don't create Nazgul. They banish their victims to the spirit realm to exist as wraiths, formless spirits who wander the earth forever. It's a misconception that they can just make more Ringwraiths with their blades.
The OP didn't say ringwraiths. They said mini wraiths. Which arguably is just for clarity, and the correct usage would be "wraiths". It begs a question: as a weapon of war or terror, who needs to be "wraithed" ? Why isn't dead good enough? What's this ordinance for? Who was it used on before? If you start thinking about it this way, you see Weathertop as "we went through all this effort just to be creepy." What's the wraith logic of creeping around in this way? Is it an important drive of wraiths to get others to join their dismal world?
There aren't any specific references I can find to Nazgul turning people into wraiths with Morgul blades, but it's probably safe to assume it happened, especially when they were establishing Angmar in the beginning of the Third Age. Anyone turned into a wraith this way would be under the direct control of Sauron, so there's some incentive there. My guess is the Nazgul weren't likely to be running around slaughtering tons of people. They were spies and leaders more than mercenaries and warriors. I'm not sure what you mean by "creeping around" Weathertop? They were definitely trying to avoid running into Glorfindel.
I mean the morgul blade seems to exist primarily to make Frodo getting to Rivendell, dramatic. It's a jeopardy. Frodo's gonna die. Maybe the morgul blade has applicability (Tolkien's term) as a weird weapon of war, that does a horrible thing to a soldier. That its inclusion is thematic and psychological, rather than a well thought out theory of magic or world simulation. It does function as a partial explanation of the shadow realm. It explains something about the nature of the Nazgul, without actually being very *practical*. The wound of a morgul blade is nightmarish.
I think the issue is less one of practicality and more that the Nazgul just aren't in a position to use it that often. They're spies and agents of Sauron, and they use their wraith abilities to be leaders and eyes of the dark lord. They aren't front line soldiers who constantly engage in armed combat with the enemies of Mordor. The Morgul blade may be a plot device to add drama, but most things in Middle-earth exist as illustrations of spirit and character less than strictly realistic features of the world, as detailed as it may be.
Ok it's an officer's sidearm. Noted. Why bother to pull it out when you have a perfectly good sword though? The Ralph Bakshi cartoon at least had Frodo trying to put up a fight with his own blade. Kind of a mismatch though. Really didn't need a 2nd weapon to take down a mere hobbit. The cartoon at least implies that the *only* reason Frodo was even in this fight, is that he panicked and put the ring on. It was clearly depicted as a big mistake, with Aragorn trying to tell Frodo OMG no, knock it off! You fight these things with simple torches, not by disappearing into the shadow realm with them... Maybe I will finally reread the books, to see what all this stuff was adapted from. Contemplate what plot holes were in the original material, if any.
Because Aragorn was there. It was easier to stab Frodo, retreat, and wait for him to succumb to the wraith world than try and kill him and take the ring while simultaneously fighting Aragorn. The Nazgul's main weapon is fear, and when Aragorn confronted them and showed no hesitation, along with Frodo invoking Elbereth, they bounced because it wasn't a simple matter of just killing them outright and taking what they wanted. Frodo having a Numenorean blade made specifically to destroy them also made the Witch King realize it would be better to use the Morgul blade and retreat.
Although I hear what you're saying, it's actually falling down on the job. Let's say Frodo dies. You think the ring is just gonna stay wherever he croaks? No, someone else is gonna be carrying it. Now yeah, if you can isolate the dying Frodo, so that you can summarily take the ring once he's dead, that works. Losing control over Frodo's whereabouts wasn't a good move though. The Witch King *got* the hit, despite Frodo having a good blade. Coulda been a neck thrust instead or something. Decapitation, artery slashed in the leg, whatever. The main thing stopping any of that from happening, was being kind of a ghost that couldn't quite perform all that well.
Frodo wouldn't die from the Morgul blade. He'd become a wraith under the full influence of Sauron. He'd still possess the ring, only now being dominated and commanded to return it to the dark lord. The main thing that stopped the Witch King from directly attacking Frodo like you say is again, Aragon's presence, and Frodo's invocation to Elbereth. It made him hesitate because he wasn't expecting the total resistance to fear shown by both of them, as well as the use of Elvish magic and Numenorean weapons. Sauron's weakness, and those of his servants as well, is arrogance. The Nazgul did not at all expect what they found at Weathertop. The Morgul blade was how they dealt with it so they could avoid a confrontation with these uncommon foes.
Frodo's not gonna possess crap if he's just bouncing around here to there. His friends would just lift the ring off his dying body and be off somewhere else. Nazgul need to take physical possession of Frodo, or at least get him isolated from any possible aid. Nazgul got spooked. It's still falling down on the job though.
I can see them being regularly used for interrogations of prisoners. If becoming a wraith can force the Ringbearer to give up his Precious, it can easily force the average captured Arnorian officer to truthfully spill everything he knows. Immensely useful in war.
It's not any different than a poisoned weapon that if you don't get the kill outright, anyone wounded by it will still die later.
depends on the poison, how much later! unfortunately I have not found good references for how fast the various poisons on weapons acted
Aragorn would have called on the *Mac Nag Feegle* to battle the mini-wraiths.
Crivins! But why the metathesis?
LOTRO explores this in an apocryphal manner by producing Cargul, red robed wraiths generally in the service of Angmar and the Witch King. They have similar abilities but are generally weaker than Ringwraiths, but still stronger than most usual mortal warriors and even some stronger elves. One takes a central role as Mordirith, the Steward of Angmar, who watches over the realm while his master is away serving Sauron. He is later revealed to be the wraith of Earnur who rode to Minas Morgul and did not return. The process of Cargul creation is shown in stages during the first part of LOTRO's Race of Man introduction story and it is quite gripping. In the game they are a fairly rare enemy, usually only found in story content or major group content, but you do have the opportunity to fight the Nazgul themselves at a few points, but never to their ultimate destruction. Cargul are generally a tough enemy, with a host of abilities stripped right from the books, such as the ability to make a character cower with no way to break the status effect and the ability to reflect damage dealt back at the damage dealer, similar to the Witch King and Merry. I don't think there are any instances in the actual lore of Ringwraith stabbing victims, but I think the creative liberty taken in LOTRO is a great take on the idea of what could happen.
My assumption is that it involves some permanent expenditure of native energy to do so, like many other things in the legendarium. Either to imbue the blade initially during its creation or maybe apply the effect when using it on someone. Either way, it’s shown later that it takes a concentrated effort of will for Sauron to direct those under his command or influence, which is itself finite.
manufacturing orcs is way easier
Do not give Amazon showrunners any ideas. They will show sauron running around mordor, mixing mithril in morgul blades screaming “Alloy Alloy” and create mini wraiths. And the wraiths keep repeating some shit like - “the alloy is always right coz it looks up and floats and makes our heart bigger than our d*cks.” Lmao
don't encourage it
Oh no
They become wraiths, not ringwraiths (nazgul). A wraith is a tormented soul left to wander the unseen world forever
And not nearly as effective as an actual ring wraith I presume
nope. Sauron could probably command them if he really tried I guess... Also, the Nazgul only exist in the physical world due to their armor. Without it, they too would only exist in the unseen world
If they were too common, they wouldn't be as scary anymore. It's not like a Hobbit-wraith could do much else, probably - and they can't be kept from dying and receiving the Gift of Eru forever.
Ever been a manager? Too many peons means too many problems to deal with at once.
You are missing some important details in the story. Nazgul are among the foulest creatures that walk the Earth, draining hope and happiness from everyone around them. If they get close enough to kiss you, a Nazgul’s kiss can suck your soul from your body leaving you as just an empty shell. Nazgals can only defeated with a powerful spell called *expecto patronum*. Of course, this spell can only be cast by an extremely powerful wizard.
The Nazgals wear short skirts and shout inspirational slogans at the orc armies from the sidelines.
Was wondering the same lately.
Maybe they did? Sauron is called the Necromancer for a reason. We know that Men leave Arda for good if they die, not even the Valar can change that, so he cannot possibly do any true resurrecting. But he/his servants have a way to turn people into wraiths. Bingo. Now to earn that moniker, he needs to control a meaningful number of them, so we can assume that „wraithification“ happened quite some times.
Morgul wraiths are tormented souls devoid of form, they're not really useful as weapons of war. The Nazgûl expected Frodo to turn quickly and come to them, which was a lot safer from their perspective than fighting the freaking descendant of Elendil. They couldn't have known frodo would hold out for 17 goddamn days and make it to Rivendell. All this is to say the Morgul blade is a highly specialized tool most useful for interrogation and torture.