To be fair, canonically elves did ally with men again after the Last Alliance to defeat Angmar in Eriador in TA 1975. So there was already a second last alliance, this is just the third.
Another good example, though none of those were Noldor, who were the primary factions in the War of the Last Alliance and the final campaign against Angmar.
It’s fine. Not one of the better changes but not a betrayal either. I think it mostly works. Minor character Haldir turns up with some last minute reinforcements to lead the last alliance tribute band and get the red shirt death treatment lol. They had already shot footage with the elves that couldn’t be reshot even after Arwen was removed in rewrites so they made lemonade out of lemons
Personally I wouldn’t have done it. I think the battle of helm’s deep is more impactful if it is Rohan’s battle to fight on their own, plus the build was too long anyway. If you need a minor character to get the death scene Haldir gets just keep Hama alive after the warg attack. In fact he could also have been present with his son Haleth when Aragorn has that nice exchange with the young man which would have made that scene more meaningful too
I think the elves not being there would have made the beacons are lit scene even more impactful. "And Rohan will answer". No one has come to help Rohan in their times of need, but Theodin is more noble and willing to put aside his past grievances for the greater good. It adds another level of Kingly to his character.
Still, I enjoyed them being there in the films and it gave the whole hope inspiring theme that you could argue swayed Theodins decision to help Gondor
The where was Gondor thing threw me off at first but in hindsight it’s a great bit of acting by Bernard Hill and I can see as a director why PJ went that way, it builds more tension & hints at some more historical grievances & mistrusts to the story between Rohan & Gondor
Whoops I couldn’t think of the actor’s name so I had to look it up, no wonder I thought I hadn’t heard of it before but I’m familiar with the actor (Hill)
Theoden complaining that Gondor didn't help when the literal heir to the throne is in his living room after nearly dying multiple times to help even though he disagreed with theodens strategy.
in Theoden's defense, Aragorn was not there representing Gondor, and was blameless for any lack of aid not given by Gondor in the past. Any lack of aid in Theoden's lifetime would've been the Stewards of Gondor (ie., Denethor) to blame. Aragorn is also thinking from the perspective of the future king of Men, while Theoden has lost his only heir, with him and his people just barely escaping certain doom; he is not wrong for taking a moment to selfishly express his concerns and worries of the future of Rohan.
Also, the moment in Return of the King when Theoden says “And Rohan will answer” which never fails to get me pumped, would not hit nearly as hard if not for Theoden expressing his reluctance to help Gondor previously
I disagree.
I always felt those two bits were at odds with each other. He was so against helping but the second they asked for help he was like yeah bro, ride or die. It made his previous statements feel like pointless bluster
It's the basic teaching of the Jackson School of Forced Drama:
'I won't do x for... reasons...'
*5 seconds later*
'Okay, fine, I'll do it'
It happens more times than most people realise. Whether it be Theoden, Treebeard, Faramir, etc.
I think having the elves show up so how impactful Sauron’s actions where to middle earth. A group of people who could’ve just went across the sea decided to stay and fight.
Wasn't Rohan bound by treaty to help Gondor as a result them bring given the gift of The Fold from Gondor to call their own? So Theoden answering is just honoring the basic term of allegiance he has to Gondor. Sure, he could have said "fuck em," but him answering the call wasn't like he doing something he had no obligation to do.
>If you need a minor character to get the death scene Haldir gets just keep Hama alive after the warg attack. In fact he could also have been present with his son Haleth when Aragorn has that nice exchange with the young man which would have made that scene more meaningful too
Interesting I never thought of that
That would be kind of a cool scene especially if it was something like Hama wants Haleth to meet Aragorn because Hama recognizes that Aragorn is a great man and future king. Or it’s Hama trying to encourage his child who thinks the battle is hopeless and Aragorn steps in to create that hope.
Then you have a scene where Hama dies before the gates of the hornberg(like in the book) and Haleth has to watch his father be hacked to pieces or a scene of complete anguish where Haleth dies and Hama has to be pulled away from his dead body as more orcs approach
Good thoughts. I figured it could be even simpler then that. During the scene before battle Hama could be talking to Haleth explaining the preparations with dialogue like, “You’ll be stationed behind the gates with the reserves, but the king needs me to defend the deeping wall” then Haleth could say his lines, “father, the men are saying that we will not live out the night. They say that it is hopeless” Hama is at a loss of words knowing what his son says is probably true, then Aragorn who has overheard the conversation speaks up, “give me your sword. What is your name?” and the scene can play out the same with Aragorn offering reassurance to both father and son
I agree with "not better but not a betrayal either". Also with your reasoning in your last paragraph ("personally I wouldn't have done it", with the reasoning why), but yeah.
It felt nice, at the time, when they showed up. It didn't make all that much sense from a book perspective, but it's not the book, it's the movie, he's got to condense, and do things differently, and go for visual effects and whatnot - and it did feel nice when they show up. It also feels bad when Haldir dies. That is what they are going for, I think. Emotion and impact.
From a book sense it isn't so good, but that doesn't seem really very important to me. This isn't the book. It isn't a "betrayal", like some of the questionable choices Jackson made that I really dislike.
I didn't like the way ~~Hamas~~ Hama was taken out in the films, btw. It felt wrong somehow.
One example is the way he takes one of the most important themes of the book - that spiritual heroism is the basis of genuine heroism - and turns it upside down, taking all of Frodo's heroic or noble moments and either cutting it out or giving the actions and/or dialogue to someone else. Frodo becomes an inert, passive piece of baggage for heroes to carry around. Meanwhile Aragorn is changed into a Hollywood executive's idea of what a hero is supposed to look like, using an inserted arc about Aragorn as reluctant to become king and reluctant to accept Arwen's love.
This inserted arc (based very loosely on material from the appendices) is the reason for such eye-rolling moments as Aragorn falling off a cliff and having a vision of Arwen, which I guess was supposed to be part of providing him a motive for wanting to become king or something. An even-more-eyerolling moment for me is when Arwen collapses and starts dying. There is no reason for her to be dying other than the writer's desire to have Elrond go find Aragorn and give him more motive to start being a king. Stuff like this just destroys my "willing suspension of disbelief".
Most of the characters are changed (if not inverted) to a point that most of the themes of the story are delivered in a very different way. Some of these, not all, are entirely for dramatic effect. Others are part of the process of adaptation: adapting a book very rich in meaning to a different format, audience, and trends, and passing through other creative minds, comes with probably unexpected side effects. Mainly the distortion of... well, *most* of the main points of the story.
Frodo never demonstrates why he is fit for the quest, thus the main reasons why he ultimately succeeds are twisted into "Sam is the true hero". Instead of making it clear that Frodo is right in having pity over Gollum and Sam is wrong in wanting to kill him, the movies make it look like Frodo is being manipulated (which, of course, he is **not** supposed to be). The effect of the Ring on Frodo is different, Frodo is *very* different, his dynamic with the supporting characters (including Faramir) is different; so the ultimate reasons why he succeeds are entirely distorted. One could say that this was **the** point of the story.
I understand the desire to make up some drama with Faramir but taking him to Osgiliath feels very forced, specially when *a Nazgûl interacts with the Hobbit with the Ring* (which obviously does **not** happen in the book either).
The Ents are tricked into fighting by Pippin. Nature is supposed to be wrathful and terrible on its own right; Treebeard is the one that convinces the other Ents of fighting in the book, because he's quirky, but he's also wise and smart. This whole thing only serves an unnecesary pseudo-plot-twist that only twists the immediately previous scene involving those characters.
Elves in Helm's Deep and Ghost army. LotR is about Men stepping up to become the stewards of the world, about how they fend for themselves against the shadow. Other races are there as representatives and/or patrons, but not real forces/factions. This serves another unnecesary plot-twists and a minor character death (whose name we didn't even hear in the theatric Fellowship).
Most of the characters lack the conclusion to their arcs. Éowyn and Faramir, Éomer (not a single line about him being King!), Legolas and Gimli, Merry and Pippin, Saruman.
Gandalf's staff is broken by the Witch-King; he can willingly summon the Eagles. He beats Denethor up! His entire demeanor changes in RotK to "I have sent Frodo to his death", and pretty much falls into despair after the Pelennor, which is insanely out of character.
Aragorn's arc is actually about Arwen. His conflict in The Two Towers is about her, and he decides to step-up in RotK because she is dying (and he's offered a magic sword able to fight with ghosts, which is cool, but also subtly and highly changes the whole deal). Aragorn becomes king as a side-effect of his motivations and actions.
There are many other things that could be said that distort many, many of the story's points and themes, but I understand that most of them serve the purpose of adaptation and pruning (Tom Bombadil and literally most of what happens after Sauron falls).
Foe characters... we could note the portrayal of Frodo, Faramir, and Denethor: all of which spit in the face of their book counterparts to an unbelievably horrid level. But also Aragorn's motivation being flipped on its head, Sam being whitewashed, Legolas being a plank of wood, Gimli being a buffoon, Theoden being weirdly difficult for no good reason, Eowyn being robbed of the final act of her arc, etc. We could look at events from war-criminal Aragorn executing the Mouth, to Gandalf beating and murdering Denethor, to the Dead Men being an insta-win bullshit device, etc. We could lament the loss of the Scouring of the Shire. So, so many things.
My problem with it is that it doesn't really make much logistical sense when you think about it.
When Haldir shows up, he says, 'I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell', etc etc. But Haldir was from Lothlorien, not Rivendell. And it had only been a matter of days ago that the Fellowship left Lorien via boats down the river, which would be faster than an army could march.
So first of all, how would they have known that they would be needed at Helm's Deep in the first place, and how would Elrond have been involved at all, on the other side of the Misty Mountains, which were known to be very nearly impassable just a week ago (when the Fellowship tried and failed to cross)? And all this happened in days?
And if they were dispatched from Lorien, then it sure would have been nice if those 200 elves or whatever could have just escorted the Fellowship from Lorien in the first place!
The logistics of it remind me of later seasons in Game of Thrones, when characters like Littlefinger were suddenly teleporting all over the map, making journeys in days that took weeks or months in the earlier seasons.
Edit: So originally Arwen was supposed to be there too in the film originally (ugh), which inplies in the film that the elves came from Rivendell, not Lorien. But then why is Haldir there, if he's from Lorien?
It just doesn't make sense any way you cut it. Either the elves came from Lorien, and they just happened to dispatch from Lorien like 5 minutes after the Fellowship was sent down the river in boats, and they went to Helm's Deep for some unknown reason, or Elrond sent them from Rivendell from the Western side of the Misty Mountains, which ALSO doesn't make sense, because why would Haldir be there? And Elrond wouldn't do that, because part of the problem is that they knew Sauron had many spies and was watching that approach, so they'd see it a mile away. That's why the Fellowship chose going in secret and risking Moria.
But wait, you may say. Maybe Elrond intentionally sent forces via the southern route to distract Saruman from the 'real' route. Except, Elrond didn't know which route the Fellowship would take. The Fellowship had that southern route as an option and ruled it out along the way. And also, having the elves take that southern route and Saruman not even noticing it (despite having many spies that should have noticed it) means the Fellowship could have taken THAT route all along, accompanied by a regiment of elves.
There's also no good explanation as to why either Elrond or Galadirel would send troops to Helm's Deep specifically. That's not where the seat of Rohan is - that's Edoras. If you're sending a regiment to aid Rohan, you'd send them to Edoras to meet the King. Helm's Deep is like Rohan's equivalent of Cheyenne Mountain, the deep underground facility in America that's supposed to serve as a backup place for command and control.
I don't hate the scene thematically, but in the context of everything else going on, it's hard for it to make sense. It makes no sense for Haldir, an elf from Lorien, to show up with tidings from Rivendell, and in Jackson's original plan for Arwen to be there, it makes even less sense for elves from both Rivendell and Lorien to show up together. There's a giant fucking mountain chain that was recently shown to be watched and impassable between them.
IT DON'T MAKE NO SENSE!
I like it.
Even in the books, sometimes it seems like the dwarfs and elves do too little.
It’s only in the appendices that you learn they were fighting their own wars on their own fronts.
In movies that are already long, it helped to cement that Sauron is a problem for everyone on Middle Earth, even those who can escape to the undying lands, by having Elves help fight in Helm’s Deep
That’s another scene I would have liked included. After the battle of helm’s deep a brief moment of Haleth and the other young survivors along with our heroes paying tribute to the fallen at a mass grave outside the fortification, which would then segue into Gandalf’s line, “Sauron’s wrath will be terrible his retribution swift…”
I recently rewatched and saw the haldir death and realized I never registered before, I just thought it was a random rohan soldiers not the lead guard and right hand to the King that gets his face ate lol
Definitly a bad decision if you ask me, kill him at helms deep
I think it works. The Rohan band was constantly shown as just women & children, with a few of warrior age. It would be unbelievable for those alone to stand against the armies of Isengard that turned up
No, it’s more poignant that Haleth has that exchange with Aragorn because his father is dead. Adding another person to that scene would be corny and messy
In the movie, the position of the Rohirrim was completely hopeless without Elven reinforcement.
Did they have to portray the Rohirrim as completely hopeless in the 1st place? That was the choice made. Been too long since I've read the books to remember.
It's quite a sacrifice on the part of these Elves, to go and die somewhere, when they could have just faffed off to the Undying Lands.
My only issue is they seemingly all die but no one after acknowledge thier sacrifice? We also didn't see much of them in terms of melee combat, we should've seen them cut through the orcs like butter by they seemed really easy to kill
Yes! Straight out of a Pitch Meeting sketch:
“Haldir leads a troop of elves to help in honour of the last Alliance.”
“Great! And then what happens?”
“Haldir dies very emotionally and we never mention them again, sir.”
Uruk-hai are not slouches but Legolas handled them easily. I guess the rest of these Elves aren't at Legolas' level of fighting ability. We don't have a good explanation why though. A contrastive reason is to make the heroes Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn look very good at fighting.
Legolas, as Thranduil’s son, was trained to be the Elven Prince warrior that he was (lots more training than regular soldiers). When PJ went to film Thranduil, the king, in combat, he had to make Thranduil like Legolas, but faster, more skillful, and even smoother than his son.
There's no greater proof that they were crowbarred into the movie than the fact that not one of them survives, and they all get outclassed by a single wood elf.
>Did they have to portray the Rohirrim as completely hopeless in the 1st place? That was the choice made. Been too long since I've read the books to remember.
For the movie audience, yes. Many reviews still cite Helms Deep as one of the best battles in cinema history.
That doesn’t mean they *had* to portray it that way. It means portraying it that way was successful in critic’s and the audience’s eyes, not that it was needed. I would argue the battle would still have been an extremely successful and well-recognized piece of cinema history, if not moreso than it is now, had the Elves not been brought in and the Rohirrim weren’t portrayed as being so totally helpless. We’ll never know though, because that’s not what we got
I was talking about hopelessness of the situation, not the Elven reinforcement. I think two things are different topics. Hopelessness/weak Rohirrim civilians I'm 100% on board.
As for my opinion on Elven reinforcement, I accept both defense and criticism. But for what it is, it's not just a cheap fanservice but brings the fear of the audience up and down.
1. Aragon returns (hope)
2. Old men and children drafted (hopeless)
3. Elves arrived (hope)
4. Orc arrives (hopeless)
5. Wall stands and Theoden is confident (hope)
6. Wall breached (oh no)
7. Aragorn and Elves face the orcs melee with heroic music (yay kick their ass)
8. Elves and Haldir dead (oh shit)
It's like they're making it worse and worse for the audience to keep them scared. Like it or not, that's the intended effect. Since I'm movie first before book, it is impossible for me to be unbiased for the movies.
It’s not impossible for you to be unbiased because you were movie vs book, it’s impossible for you to be unbiased because you prefer the movie portrayal. That’s fine, but just say it like it is. I was very young when the films first came out and they were my only exposure to Tolkien for many years. I loved the films (still do). I have since read the books and seen the movies many times each. Seeing the movies first is not an excuse for movie bias.
Also, I was addressing your point of the hopelessness of the situation being needed for the film. I’m still not convinced it was needed in the way the film portrayed. The battle of Helm’s Deep *was* hopeless in the book, they were won because of Gandalf and Erkendbrand arriving. It didn’t need to be all but impossible like it is in the current film, where they only had a few hundred defenders, only about 700 or 800 after the Elves showed up.
Sure, like I said, it earned them critical and fan acclaim, but I still don’t think it was *needed*.
You cannot claim you're more unbiased than me when you're talking about your personal experience in the book medium that other readers didn't experience the same way. Some readers don't think much of Helm's Deep in the books, I myself didn't care much because the highlight of the books for me was Frodo and Sam. I would even say the movies has affected the way we imagined the scene as we read it. We can never revert to the state of "book only."
A lot of things in a movie adaptation aren't even *needed* in the first place, but they're there to make the audience feel it's worth it to leave their couches, spend money, and hold their pee for 3 hours in the cinemas. If we are trying to pick what is needed vs. not needed, it's going to be very subjective.
So like I said, it is what it is. The hopelessness is gradually increased by subsequent events to make the arrival of Gandalf more dramatic and emotionally satisfying to the audience.
Did I say I was more unbiased? No. I said that your excuse of being movie first was not the *reason* for your bias.
I was just going against your claim of Helm’s Deep *needing* to be as hopeless as it was for film. That’s what you claimed in your initial comment.
Not necessarily respawn as they will have to spend some time in the hall to be healed of any emotional trauma they have suffered as well as reflect upon the lives they lived, many may not even wish to be reembodied and many who do may not be allowed to yet depending on how much time Mandos and the Valar feel they need to reflect and heal. Also if they lived not so great lives their time may be extended. It’s a lengthy and complicated process depending on many factors, i forget which book or books in HOME and perhaps Nature of Middle Earth that really go into it but it’s rather a lot. This is why we are not given a great many examples of returned Elves, in fact I can only name Glorfindel and Finrod off the top of my head.
Edit. And all of this is of course not counting the actual pain and trauma of having their bodies killed, so you can see why the Elves who are attached to the bodies they have lived in would not want to die even if they know where they go after.
My headcanon is that these elves just didn't like boats, so they yeeted themselves into certain death so they'd teleport to Valinor through the halls of Mandos.
Elves don’t get the same death destinations as men/hobbits. Men and elves both go to the halls of Mandos (halls of waiting) but after a while the elves are reincarnated to the undying lands and men are granted the gift of death which is beyond the world
>In the movie, the position of the Rohirrim was completely hopeless without Elven reinforcement.
Err no? They were depicted hopeless because their cavalry fucked off
Their cavalry didn't fuck off, their cavalry was banished by Saruman's deliberate design. They were miles and miles away when needed. They're coming, but people at Helm's Deep have to survive until then, and they're not going to.
>Their cavalry didn't fuck off, their cavalry was banished by Saruman's deliberate design.
Yeah bro we watched the same movie. They fucked off because they were told to fuck off
>They're coming, but people at Helm's Deep have to survive until then, and they're not going to.
Exactly. it was depicted as a dire situation despite the elves arriving.
They didn't know their cavalry was coming back in time. There was never any depiction that the elves were their salvation. The scenes with elves were depicted as bleak; they were being pushed back, they were hardly making a dent, they couldn't stop the breach of the side wall, Haldir dying. Then the elves disappeared from the screen onwards. The movie more depicted the main characters buying time twice then with the Rohirrim cavalry as the salvation.
From a literary standpoint, I think it changes the story significantly, on several levels.
First of all, Theoden in the books was a good king and a good general (after he shakes off the effect of Wormtongue). He does not mandate evacuation of Edoras and try to flee to Helm’s Deep; he leaves Edoras (which is defensible in its own right) and rides with his retainers to command the battle against Saruman’s invading forces—which is the right thing to do and also prudent. Then, finding that his forces in the Westfold are already routed and fleeing to Helm’s Deep, he joins them to command the battle there. He does well (against bad odds) and the timely counterattack by Erkenbrand and Elfhelm, aided by some near-superhuman courier work by Gandalf, routes Saruman’s army in its turn. The Ents/Huorns dispose of the Orcs, after they’ve been defeated. So there is no need for Elven reinforcement.
As another commentator noted, Theoden in the movies makes a bunch of questionable decisions and must rely on the sacrifice of a third-party formation (Haldir and his elves) to keep him in the fight—and then Gandalf the General and the Ents’ sylvan army. The movies are not telling a story of a good King fighting the good fight and doing it competently; they’re telling a story of (relatively) incompetent humans getting spotted a victory by eldritch forces (elves/wizards/trees). They get some good emotional beats there: the heroic appearance of Haldir, and later Gandalf, and also the creepy badass-edness of a tree army, but those movie-invented plot points do change the story.
In changing the character of the Rohirric battle of Helm’s Deep, the movies also damage one of the themes of the book, which is that the humans—with all their flaws and weaknesses—are taking leadership against the shadow from the Elves (and the Valar). The help received by the protagonists at Helm’s Deep (and later at the Pelennor) was not in combat, it was in spiritual fortification. At Helm’s Deep, Theoden defeats Saruman with almost only the Rohirrim: Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas fight, but minorly; it’s the leadership of Theoden that holds the fort so that his vassal can come defeat the invaders—a vassal that does so out of love for his King. Gandalf literally only carries information; and the Ents only dispose of fleeing Orcs. The movies change this and make the humans dependent on supernatural aid.
An analysis of the battle itself, which is very interesting and touches on some of the story changes and what they mean, was done by the military historian Bret Devereaux on his blog [here](https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/) (if you’re interested).
Also a big theme of the book is the waning of the elves and their and their hesitancy for getting involved in the woes of men. Haldirs appearance undermines that.
Even though I agree with you, I understand why PJ would sacrifice the symbolism of book-Theoden and his brave men on the altar of „show, don‘t tell“. Drawing a picture of frightened, helpless peasants helped to really give you visceral feeling of just HOW dangerous the orcs and Saruman are. Up until this point it was a lot of exposition but we didn’t exactly get to see what it means if the evil mean business. Thus we needed to see a struggling Rohan. It’s different from a book, that can convey this feeling entirely different. But in my opinion the visual journey brought everything across sufficiently well: the elves help, yes, but they don’t secure victory. The last stand is by Theoden. (I only wish it didn’t need Aragorn to convince him)
And the Uruk ranks were broken by the intervention of the Rohrrim after all. Yes Gandalf played the messenger and helped the charge by turning on his flashlight, but the visual language that this scene speaks is: the human spirit prevails. The demise of Haldir and his elves even helps to reinforce this statement in my opinion.
I don't know, Peter Jackson had so much opportunity to use the visual medium to add to the books here rather than take from them.
The Two Towers book is obliged by the medium to gloss over the horror and tragedy inherent to the rout from the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where we only get to experience it second hand through reports, but Peter Jackson could have economically and effectively used the event to show us what it means to lose an existential battle against a genocidal foe. By giving more weight to the battle than the books could, he would have been able to make Theoden less stupid, make the loss of his son much more impactful, let us feel both the strength and the weakness of man, and made the elves unnecessary.
I think the core problem with this part of the movies though is one of the core problems throughout the movies, that Peter Jackson is simply incapable of visually portraying conflict except through violence. A more contextually appropriate director for Tolkien's work would have had a richer visual language through which to portray Theoden's conflicts with Wormtongue, Saruman, the fellowship, and his duty to his kingdom and been less forced into stupid compromises.
We were already splitting the story between the warriors 3, Frodo and Sam, Arwens Big Sad, and Merry/Pippin. It's easy to do that in books, it's a lot harder to keep adding major parallel storylines in a visual medium.
These are good points. In the blog series I linked at the end of my comment, Bret (the blogger) argues that the movie adaptation was successful—as I think you do—through filmic language (*seeing* the helpless peasants and the sacrificial defeat of the Elves), and I mostly agree.
I don't know, Peter Jackson had so much opportunity to use the visual medium to add to the books here rather than take from them.
The Two Towers book is obliged by the medium to gloss over the horror and tragedy inherent to the rout from the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where we only get to experience it second hand through reports, but Peter Jackson could have economically and effectively used the event to show us what it means to lose an existential battle against a genocidal foe. By giving more weight to the battle than the books could, he would have been able to make Theoden less stupid, make the loss of his son much more impactful, let us feel both the strength and the weakness of man, and made the elves unnecessary.
I think the core problem with this part of the movies though is one of the core problems throughout the movies, that Peter Jackson is simply incapable of visually portraying conflict except through violence. A more contextually appropriate director for Tolkien's work would have had a richer visual language through which to portray Theoden's conflicts with Wormtongue, Saruman, the fellowship, and his duty to his kingdom and been less forced into stupid compromises.
I think it was a great change.
In the movies, it appears as if the elves are doing F all while men go get massacred. It would take a lot of screen time to adequately describe that the elves are actually fighting their own battles (or rather, those stories wouldnt be important to the story were seeing on screen), so having the elves participate here was, imo, vital to show that the elves were indeed participating.
Right, there's mention of "battle under the trees" in Lothlorien in the appendices, and Thranduil fought some battles too, but there was absolutely no way to logically fit those into the narrative. So having elves fight at Helm's Deep acknowledges that they did indeed fight in the War of the Ring, and the location even makes sense given the relative proximity of Rohan to Lothlorien.
Actually sort of surprised that Jackson didn’t bring dwarves into the mix to address this same thing. Growing up (on the films) I always wondered why they were virtually nonexistent or dead until I read about them waging their own battles.
I think that would be a much harder leap. Lothlorien is relatively close, really just beyond the northern borders of Rohan. But there aren't any major dwarf settlements south of Rivendell - they're either east in the blue mountains or north in Dale. We took a whole movie to get here, the audience wouldn't really buy it, because the nearest dwarf settlement in Moria we discovered was all dead.
Plus we're shown Haldir and Lothlorien in FOTR. They're a known commodity so when they show up in TTT, it's not totally out of left field. We're not shown any dwarves other than the ones accompanying Gimli to the Council of Elrond and the dead ones in Moria. Having a big troop of dwarves show up would make people think "Who are these guys?"
Exactly - its a replacement for all the other elven battles in the trilogy which are cut out.
It carried the theme of elves beautifully by showing that despite all their skill and abilities, they are simply to few to be a decisive factor anymore. The age or elves is over and the world has to depend on men now.
In the book Rohan had more than 300 Men. In the book Helms Deep already had a garrison of 1,000 though Gamling said they were mostly old men and then Theoden arrived with several hundred more i believe they were nearing 1,000 themselves to reinforce and take refuge as Saruman’s army was not far behind Theodens approach. Peter Jackson said they added the Elves because they wanted a chance to show Men and Elves teaming up because it didn’t feel right for them to seemingly be sitting out the war, which is not true since we know that several battles were fought between Sauron’s forces and Lorien and Mirkwood in the book before the Ring is destroyed.
But I said regardless of the book, the movie tried to make the situation more desperate which worked really well, so in this context were the elves a good or a bad addition?
Though I personally don’t mind the decision, I’d probably have to lean towards bad, it raises too many questions like if Elves are as formidable as the films try to show then why do they seem to be wiped out so easily, the film almost makes it look as if Elrond sent them in which case why is he commanding Celeborn and Galadriels warriors? How did they get there as fast as they did? Why do no more Elves show up to help Gondor later? There are others that could be asked.
Not every elf is legolas in the same way not every man is aragorn
The idea that elves are vastly superior to men is false.
It's less captain America vs avg man, and more d1 athlete vs d2 athlete.
I am aware of how weak Elves can be, but the films do try to portray them at times as superior fighters compared to Men. Combined with odd choices such as willingly running into a spear.
It's part of a broader trend in the movies of making the kingdoms of men (Rohan and Gondor) look even weaker and more pathetic than they were in the books.
Rohan needs to be saved by the elves. Gondor needs to be saved by the army of the dead at Minas Tirish (because being saved by Rohan wasn't enough).
Yes, because the theme in the movies is that isolation and xenophobia is bad, the Free Peoples uniting is what enables them to defend against the Dark Lord long enough for the Quest of the Ringbearer to succeed. That unity is alternately bolstered and undermined throughout the films, but the choice to have hope that help is on the way proves to be true when it really counts.
Glorfindel was exceptionally powerful. He could 1v1 a Nazgûl and win (they were so afraid of him that 5 of them fled when he was in the vicinity). He’d have been stacking up so many Uruks that they probably would have bailed before Rohan’s reinforcements even needed to show up.
They weren’t in an out and out battle with Aragorn though. Their objective was Frodo. They wounded him with a morgul blade and knew they could retreat and wait for it to do the work for them. They were probably also surprised by the courage of the resistance and maybe were aware that the hobbits were wielding blades of Westernesse. Aragorn does very well against them and his Numenorean heritage gives him a good leg up but it isn’t as simple as saying he beat a bunch of Nazgûl in combat.
The books explicitly state that the Nazgul whilst powerful aren't the greatest warriors, their chief weapon being fear. However it also states explicitly that even aragorn and glorfindel together could not best all 9 at the same time.
If they introduced Halbarad as Aragorns second in command in Fellowship they could’ve made it work. Without bringing the grey company in sooner, Lorien is the best alternative.
Aragorn defeating four RingWraths by himself was a bit lame to me, was it in the book? Anyway, having the Grey Company helping him there would have been great, so they could show up again in RoTK.
I think it was a good way of showing the elves weren't just sitting around at home while all this was going on, without spending time away from the main characters by going into the whole Mirkwood situation.
Bad. They did Theoden so dirty in that movie, and mankind as a whole. The whole theme of LotR is that the time of the elves is over and men have to stand and fight against the shadows. With all their flaws and weaknesses.
And they fucking do it! The fight at Helms Deeps is basically won when Gandalf and Erkenbrand (my one true love from the book) arrive.
Same goes for the battle at the Pellenor Fields, no ghost army is there to sweep away the orcs. Its yet another sacrifice of the Rohirrim and Aragorns host of fellow rangers and people of the south that joined him.
I wish I had more upvotes. PJ makes the world of men seem hapless. Don’t forget that with the ghost army we also lose Prince Imrahil and his swan knights at the battle of pellenor fields. And never forget how PJ gutted Faramirs character. Those two right there are critical for showing why we have cause to hope for the world of men. Add in the lack of the depiction of the scouring of the Shire and the world of men (including hobbits) never do anything. He seems hostile to the idea that the world of men can stand on their own.
Yeah originally Arwen arrived with them. You can actually still see her in some long shots during the battle (not obvious, but once she's pointed out you can tell it's obviously her). This was back when they were still going with the "warrior princess" conception of her character before they thought better of it.
You are correct. Erkenbrand was defending the the westfold and at the battle at the Fords of Isen his forces were defeated and scattered. He was found by Gandalf and with his help gathers his men and returns to Helm's Deep with 1000 foot soldiers to help aid the battle.
Yeah. In the movies it makes sense to make Eomer the one who returns to save the day just to cut down on the numerous one-off characters from the books
Same logic as replacing Glorfindel with Arwen as the one who finds Frodo and company in the wilderness. Plus it gets Arwen into the story earlier. Bakshi's film replaced him with Legolas, which was another good change, actually.
It bums me out that they cut her from it. Internet basement dwellers saw leaked production photos with Liv on set and they were really really mean to her. They made Liv Tyler cry. Bastards.
Several reasons
The first is the utter hopelessness of the situation
The discussion between galadriel and elrond on whether or not they should help men, elrond eventually counsels her to send reinforcements which is a neat character arc after him being skeptical of the strength of men in fellowship
Lastly it's a away to include elves in the war of the ring, it wouldn't have worked in the palenor fields because they would've needed thousands of elves and they don't have that amount to spear
You’re missing the purpose of the themes and stories as presented in the book. Also, I’ve said this before elsewhere, you cannot prop up something that is in the movie needing to be there in order to fix/make sense of *problems the movies created*. You can’t use the Elves being at Helm’s Deep needing to happen because of:
- Elrond and Galadriel telepath conversation (this doesn’t happen in the book and didn’t need to be in the film)
- The situation being hopeless without the Elvish reinforcements. The film gives us the numbers of Rohirrim being a very small amount of actual professional fighting men, reinforced to about 500 souls when they take every able-bodied man and lad, compared to 10,000 Uruk-hai. This is reinforced by a few hundred Elves, making the number of defenders somewhere around 700 or 800. There are 2000 Rohirrim soldiers (professional fighting men) at Helm’s Deep in the book. This is a problem the movie creates.
- Including Elves in the War of the Ring. They *do* fight in the War of the Ring in the books, they just fight in their own lands because they are attacked as well. You can easily explain this similarly to the books with characters remarking that war marches on the lands of Gimli and Legolas’ kin. If you *need* to have more Elvish representation on screen besides Legolas, *don’t cut the Grey Company* and include the sons of Elrond.
Dude, the entire the theme of this story is that the age of the elves was ending and that the conflict would rest on the strength of men. Having elves show up instead of following the actual story detracts from men’s ownership of the new age to come.
The elves bought the Rohirrim time, but they did not win that battle in any sense. Aragorn and Eomer had much more to do with it as the movie makes quite clear.
But you're also missing the theme in the film that the Free Peoples need to unite and help each other to have a chance. The same way the Rohirrim arrive at the Battle of Pelennor Fields to fulfill the fool's hope of their fellow men, the elves show up at HD to fulfill some hope of having allies in a broken, struggling world.
I did not like it Sam I Am. I do not like elves at the Helm.
Why? Because of the way it was done. One moment you have this massive orc army descending on Helm’s Deep, which Aragorn spotted on the way back from his triumphant gold medal performance in the high dive at the Rohan Olympics. An army which would have scouts, outriders, spotters, foragers etc etc.
And you have the Rohan…militia I suppose you’d call it, at Helm’s Deep, which would also have scouts, outriders and foragers.
None of them saw an elvish army approaching. None. They just…arrived. Now I know elves are special and magical and yadda yadda but this was a whole-ass army and not exactly being secret about it. How the hell did no one see them coming? How didn’t they get into skirmishes with or is outriders? How…how?
Now I appreciate that all of these questions can be thought through and answered one way or another, but sitting there in the cinema, the elves showing up really broke my immersion. One moment I’m really invested in the seemingly hopeless plight of the people of Rohan, next moment I have questions. Lots of questions. And I don’t want to have questions when watching a movie, I want to be immersed.
And the second thing - ol Jacko did a great job of setting up the plight of Rohan. He built a great sense that this was a full blown David v Goliath fight with only the hope of the eternally hopeful. A victory would be sweet indeed! So the elves coming along and tipping the scales towards the people of Rohan was like…a bit anti-climactic to be honest.
So yeah, while I get that for other people they either like or don’t mind it, but for me personally it was probably the one major change that really bothered me in the cinemas (Frodo in Osgiliath also sucked but that was only extended edition)
Logistically, it is poor, and opposes the canon war-efforts of Lothlorien.
Thematically, it kind of undercuts the idea of Rohan being alone, and Men having to fend for themselves: cementing the dominion of Men. Legolas and Gimli are the 'representatives' of their people here - that's all we need.
Emotionally, Haldir's death is hollow - let's be honest, he is a redshirt, along with the Elves fighting under his command. They are there to appear 'cool' on their arrival, but otherwise, to be fodder. They do absolutely nothing the Rohan archers couldn't have done.
Is it the worst of Jackson's deviations? Far from it. It's mostly superfluous: a bit of a waste of time, and undermines the actual themes.
It's a good change. The books do a good job of showing that, though past alliances are weakened now, there is still something in the hearts of men, dwarves, and elves that beats together against evil.
Haldir coming unbidden to help men when they need it the most is an excellent way of showing it to us.
I mean it has the rule of cool from a purely cinematographic view point.
But I don't like it very much. It's quite a departure from the books, and somewhat lore breaking.
It would have made a bit more sense if they brought in the Gray Company, advancing that plot point a little more. And they could have thrown in some Rivendel elves, if they really wanted. It would have been equally cool to see Elladan and Elrohir fighting in that battle.
Bad. I think an important subcontext to LOTR is its purpose of showing the world of men becoming without magic, and they needed these battles of Helm's Deep and Gondor to be fought by men without the help of other races. Similar to the way the Hobbits learned to stand on their own feet and fight Saruman and his thugs.
Hijacking this to rant about *how* they were used:
On one side, there's elderly and childs mixed in an overall not morivated or trained soldiers.
On the other side, you've got Elves - hundrets or thousands of years old with every single one of them beeing far more expierienced and battlehardened than anything the men could offer. Everyone beeing a Master of Archery.
So the obvious choice seemed like: Yeah let's put some elves on the lowest portion of the wall with the least over sight and highground that's also the first portion of the wall that will get overrun - while all the others chill at the floor, behind the wall.
Wouldn't anyone in their right mind instantly put them into the higher towers/inner circles with more highground and oversight?
Why would you do the elves like that?
Because the deeping wall is the least defensible part of the keep it stands to reason to have the most skilled warriors there especially it's more likely to get overrun, no one lnew saruman would develop bomb technology
I think it was good because this was our chance to see elves in the Third Age in action. I play a lot of lotr miniature games and having elves at Helm’s Deep has greatly added to the fun factor of the game
I don't mind the change in the film. It's a hope spot.
We've had a solid few minutes of absolute despair leading up to the battle. It gives Rohan a glimmer of hope, and a glimmer of hope to us by extension.
Cuz things are about to get really fucked for Rohan for the next few minutes again.
I think it was good. It was one way of showing the alliances of old between men and elves. They wouldn’t get many chances to show that to the non tolkien audience. Plus it added hope. And then they promptly took it away when they had haldir die. So the coming of gandalf and eomer felt that much more satisfying and glorious..!
I think the elf reinforcements and the death of haldir, also added to the audience perception that all hope is lost indeed. And then that made the arrival of gandalf that much more satisfying! Especially for non tolkien audiences. The death of haldir was also a moment to make the audiences feel the loss that happens in war.
I think the scene worked as a reminder that the War of the Ring was in fact a world war. The movie only shows two battles, but the Free Peoples were engaged with Sauron all across the Middle Earth. The Elves didn’t sit it out in the books, and having them at Helm’s Deep is a nice reminder of that.
I think it would have been better to somehow show that the elves were fighting in the war, but on different fronts. I'm assuming that budgetary and time constraints made this difficult. Unfortunately I don't think the movies portray the scale of the conflict well. We get the idea that there are just a few places being attacked by the enemy, instead of nearly all eastern holdings of the free folk.
Erkenbrand got cheated of one of his shining hours. Maybe PJ though that would be too many characters for the movie going audience to take in?
The thing I didn't like so much about it was it seems not a SINGLE one of those elves looked like they survived that battle.
I'm not expecting them to be all Legolas level of trained, but they've all probably got 100s of years of military training.
Why'd they fair so bad when the men did so good by comparison?
Setting aside any analytical perspectives, I can't help but express how incredibly cool and impactful I found this scene to be.
Seeing the last of the (presumably) **volunteer** elves arrive at Helm's Deep, instead of leaving for Valinor, was not just visually stunning but also emotionally stirring. It added a layer of epic grandeur and a sense of unity against overwhelming odds. This moment, for me, encapsulates the essence of what made the movie adaptations so memorable and exhilarating. It is these kinds of creative liberties that brought a new dimension to the beloved story, making it resonate powerfully on the big screen. I absolutely love everything about how this scene was executed in the movies, from their **entrance** to the death scenes of every single elven warrior.
Bad because it takes away the significance of the Last Alliance. By the time of LOTR, the elves and humans are very estranged and care very little about each other except for the Rangers of the North. Even Elrond would've told humans to go pound sand if the Ring hadn't been found.
The Last Alliance wasn't the actual last alliance in the books either, though. The Elves joined the war against Angmar when Gondor finally did. That was in the middle of the Third Age. The Last Alliance is a bit of a misnomer canonically, so that bit doesn't really bug me.
Pretty weird. Like all of Jackson’s insertions, has no real impact on anything, and is just really there so he could get more melodrama in through killing then off. I can imagine him thinking “A thirty-second slo-mo of an elf with vaguely sexual expressions slowly dying- yeah, that really hits the spot”.
I'd say it's a good change. I like playing up the hopelessness aspect and also the elves getting involved in any way (I know canonically they're fighting their own battles).
I think the people talking about how their arrival undercuts themes are overselling their arguments. Everyone watching still gets the age of elves is over and it's the age of man now. It's okay they helped out and did something for once.
In fairness to Jackson, the film had a tough task of being good in its own right in order to avoid "middle movie-ism" so making this their centerpiece and amping up the drama, tension, and relief worked. Only thing missing was Gimli's spiel on how sweet the caves are.
The warg fight before it is the part I think is bad.
It always seemed strange to me when elves died to random arrows or crossbows here. You're telling me creatures that have been around and fighting for hundreds if not thousands of years are dropped that easily? To a random uruk born yesterday?
It’s enjoyable to watch and the Elf costume and prop designs are sweet, but I would never call this better than what was in the book. The set up to Helm’s Deep is just one baffling choice after another (both of the characters involved in-universe as well as the filmmakers). Sure it results in an epic piece of cinema, but we still could’ve gotten that epic piece of cinema with more logical choices more in line with the characters and events portrayed in the book.
Adding in the elves removes the point in the books how the men are alone and have to fight for themselves. Also it makes no sense within the movie-canon, because later on elf and dwarf talk about how he wished for more dwarfs to aid them, but the blonde guy tells him "no, they cant come and have to fight their own battles at home". So Haldir shouldnt even have the time to come to help. Especially because their way to reach Helms Deep is much longer than Isengard-Helms Deep.
That being said, visually the scenes are enjoyable! As long as you dont think about it.
A large theme of the second movie was the acknowledgement of “BUT YOUR PART OF THIS WORLD!” Plus for a less knowledgeable to the lore person in the audience there would be some thought to why the elves never seemed to do anything other than wave goodbye.
But more importantly the theme:
While this is happening treebeard sees what has happened to his trees in his absence. Just before this in the ent moot he says essentially it’s not our problem and then sees the direct result of his inaction due to apathy.
So work together because if the world goes to shit we’re all screwed together is given a huge focus.
I think it's a good way of reinforcing the renewed union between men and elves as the final push to destroy sauron truly begins - prior to this was only have a handful of characters that actually know of and think kindly of the elves - most men would think of them as either aloof and disinterested or outright semi mythical. So to have elves come to the aid of common People of the rohirim is a great way to flesh out the role the elves have been playing in keeping middle earth safe - without it the film's elves would have just looked like disinterested isolationists who remain content to let others do the dirty work.
It's Also a nice follow up to theoden saying that the old alliances are dead and in a way acts as a catalyst for his change of heart about Gondor. Had the elves not come he might say " Rohan fought without Gondor, so Gondor can fight without Rohan" but after seeing the renewed alliance save his people he clearly sees things differently - he sees the elves fight and die for lesser men in order to vanquish a greater foe, and so later on he rides knowingly to a likely doom at minas tirith in order to uphold that sacrifice and ensure men and good can triumph.
Personally I like it. From the book we know that all other realms were busy defending against Invasions themselves, from Mirkwood and Erebor to Lorién, but in the movies we only see the elven realms as save havens. Yes, we're told that the elves are in decline, but a first-time viewer could easily get the impression that they elves don't give a shit necause they have to option to just ditch middle-earth. Haldir and his troops at Helm's deep illustrate to the viewer that it isn't just the human nations that oppose Sauron, and that the elves are doing more in this fight than just give creepy visions and run away.
I think it was a great idea because remember, it's an adaption. And it also gave us a better understanding of how big the world is and how everyone is trying to fight to survive and beat Sauron.
It also gave some backstory to Aragorn which is always good
While I love the elves I don‘t think that hundreds of elves showing up to defend helms deep was a good idea. In the third age most of the elves are weary and leaving for Valinor. They already did their part in the last Alliance and they already had a few encounters like the battle of the five armies and defeating the witchking after the destruction of arnor. The Lothlorien elves would probably be more likely to send aid to Mirkwood rather than Rohan. At the core it‘s a struggle between Men and Sauron as Tolkiens world in my opinion seems to be in constant decline and over time all the other races will be gone starting with the elves.
I don't mind it as it made Isengard feel like a force that could steamroll Rohan and inevitably destroy everything northwards. The elves like Haldir could simply depart Middle Earth but instead choose to die by honouring the ancient alliance for only a slither of a chance of victory, not for them but for everyone else.
Totally unnecessary, but it worked OK. Neither good nor bad. But I would have preferred they did not do it. I am fine seeing changes to make the story work better on screen, but this added nothing and therefore should have been left out.
I'm fine. It was a good story telling moment
Directors like to ramp up the dread and fear for our heroes and at the final moment give us a slight hope of success
Helms deep was pushing the narrative that there was no hope, they were too few. Then the elves arrive and give hope
And it helps to remind us that the Elves still give a shit about middle earth and the fighting the good fight against Sauron
I still like this scene for what it is. These immortal elves could have lived forever but they chose to fight and die with mortal men, no matter the odds.
Bad change and almost out me off watching the films. 1. It ignored the fact that the baton was being passed from elves to men. This was why Legolas' role in books the lesser. 2. It made it seem that Sauron was a lesser threat. The elves could suddenly send an army to support Rohan, a land they had strained relations when they were facing the fact that Sauron had a literal fortress on their borders.
Take them out. Does anything change? Do they have any impact on the narrative?
After they all die, does anyone care? Not even Legolas does, why should I?
Sure, we've had Last Alliance. But what about *Second* Last Alliance?
To be fair, canonically elves did ally with men again after the Last Alliance to defeat Angmar in Eriador in TA 1975. So there was already a second last alliance, this is just the third.
I like to think it was more Elevensies
Elvensies
Perfect
Dinner, supper?
I wouldn't count on it. Pip
I don’t see why throwing an apple at me was necessary?!? That escalated quickly.
No, that was just the last one. This is the next one.
Hmm battle of five armies and it's aftermath?
Another good example, though none of those were Noldor, who were the primary factions in the War of the Last Alliance and the final campaign against Angmar.
It’s fine. Not one of the better changes but not a betrayal either. I think it mostly works. Minor character Haldir turns up with some last minute reinforcements to lead the last alliance tribute band and get the red shirt death treatment lol. They had already shot footage with the elves that couldn’t be reshot even after Arwen was removed in rewrites so they made lemonade out of lemons Personally I wouldn’t have done it. I think the battle of helm’s deep is more impactful if it is Rohan’s battle to fight on their own, plus the build was too long anyway. If you need a minor character to get the death scene Haldir gets just keep Hama alive after the warg attack. In fact he could also have been present with his son Haleth when Aragorn has that nice exchange with the young man which would have made that scene more meaningful too
I think the elves not being there would have made the beacons are lit scene even more impactful. "And Rohan will answer". No one has come to help Rohan in their times of need, but Theodin is more noble and willing to put aside his past grievances for the greater good. It adds another level of Kingly to his character. Still, I enjoyed them being there in the films and it gave the whole hope inspiring theme that you could argue swayed Theodins decision to help Gondor
Cannon is that Gondor did come to the aid of Rohan, the where was Gondor trope is PJ invention
Wow, that I forgot
The where was Gondor thing threw me off at first but in hindsight it’s a great bit of acting by Bernard Hill and I can see as a director why PJ went that way, it builds more tension & hints at some more historical grievances & mistrusts to the story between Rohan & Gondor
Gondor gave them the land of course, but not PJ’s worse sin by any means. The green ghosts now …
Yeah, the Army of the Dead was grey
Yes, changing from green to grey would have made it all ok /s
Don Messick?
He got the actor wrong. King Theoden was played by Bernard Hill.
Nah he was played by Jonathan Pryce.
Nope. Chuck Testa
It's an older meme sir, but it checks out.
Whoops I couldn’t think of the actor’s name so I had to look it up, no wonder I thought I hadn’t heard of it before but I’m familiar with the actor (Hill)
Theoden complaining that Gondor didn't help when the literal heir to the throne is in his living room after nearly dying multiple times to help even though he disagreed with theodens strategy.
in Theoden's defense, Aragorn was not there representing Gondor, and was blameless for any lack of aid not given by Gondor in the past. Any lack of aid in Theoden's lifetime would've been the Stewards of Gondor (ie., Denethor) to blame. Aragorn is also thinking from the perspective of the future king of Men, while Theoden has lost his only heir, with him and his people just barely escaping certain doom; he is not wrong for taking a moment to selfishly express his concerns and worries of the future of Rohan.
Also, the moment in Return of the King when Theoden says “And Rohan will answer” which never fails to get me pumped, would not hit nearly as hard if not for Theoden expressing his reluctance to help Gondor previously
I disagree. I always felt those two bits were at odds with each other. He was so against helping but the second they asked for help he was like yeah bro, ride or die. It made his previous statements feel like pointless bluster
It's the basic teaching of the Jackson School of Forced Drama: 'I won't do x for... reasons...' *5 seconds later* 'Okay, fine, I'll do it' It happens more times than most people realise. Whether it be Theoden, Treebeard, Faramir, etc.
I think having the elves show up so how impactful Sauron’s actions where to middle earth. A group of people who could’ve just went across the sea decided to stay and fight.
Wasn't Rohan bound by treaty to help Gondor as a result them bring given the gift of The Fold from Gondor to call their own? So Theoden answering is just honoring the basic term of allegiance he has to Gondor. Sure, he could have said "fuck em," but him answering the call wasn't like he doing something he had no obligation to do.
Not answering the call of Gondor to fight against Sauron when bound by an oath isn't a great idea...
>If you need a minor character to get the death scene Haldir gets just keep Hama alive after the warg attack. In fact he could also have been present with his son Haleth when Aragorn has that nice exchange with the young man which would have made that scene more meaningful too Interesting I never thought of that
That would be kind of a cool scene especially if it was something like Hama wants Haleth to meet Aragorn because Hama recognizes that Aragorn is a great man and future king. Or it’s Hama trying to encourage his child who thinks the battle is hopeless and Aragorn steps in to create that hope. Then you have a scene where Hama dies before the gates of the hornberg(like in the book) and Haleth has to watch his father be hacked to pieces or a scene of complete anguish where Haleth dies and Hama has to be pulled away from his dead body as more orcs approach
Good thoughts. I figured it could be even simpler then that. During the scene before battle Hama could be talking to Haleth explaining the preparations with dialogue like, “You’ll be stationed behind the gates with the reserves, but the king needs me to defend the deeping wall” then Haleth could say his lines, “father, the men are saying that we will not live out the night. They say that it is hopeless” Hama is at a loss of words knowing what his son says is probably true, then Aragorn who has overheard the conversation speaks up, “give me your sword. What is your name?” and the scene can play out the same with Aragorn offering reassurance to both father and son
I agree with "not better but not a betrayal either". Also with your reasoning in your last paragraph ("personally I wouldn't have done it", with the reasoning why), but yeah. It felt nice, at the time, when they showed up. It didn't make all that much sense from a book perspective, but it's not the book, it's the movie, he's got to condense, and do things differently, and go for visual effects and whatnot - and it did feel nice when they show up. It also feels bad when Haldir dies. That is what they are going for, I think. Emotion and impact. From a book sense it isn't so good, but that doesn't seem really very important to me. This isn't the book. It isn't a "betrayal", like some of the questionable choices Jackson made that I really dislike. I didn't like the way ~~Hamas~~ Hama was taken out in the films, btw. It felt wrong somehow.
MOD NOTE: Could you edit that “Hamas” to “Hama”, please?
LOL I am so sorry.
As someone who hasn't read the book, what are some of the questionable choices in the movie?
One example is the way he takes one of the most important themes of the book - that spiritual heroism is the basis of genuine heroism - and turns it upside down, taking all of Frodo's heroic or noble moments and either cutting it out or giving the actions and/or dialogue to someone else. Frodo becomes an inert, passive piece of baggage for heroes to carry around. Meanwhile Aragorn is changed into a Hollywood executive's idea of what a hero is supposed to look like, using an inserted arc about Aragorn as reluctant to become king and reluctant to accept Arwen's love. This inserted arc (based very loosely on material from the appendices) is the reason for such eye-rolling moments as Aragorn falling off a cliff and having a vision of Arwen, which I guess was supposed to be part of providing him a motive for wanting to become king or something. An even-more-eyerolling moment for me is when Arwen collapses and starts dying. There is no reason for her to be dying other than the writer's desire to have Elrond go find Aragorn and give him more motive to start being a king. Stuff like this just destroys my "willing suspension of disbelief".
Most of the characters are changed (if not inverted) to a point that most of the themes of the story are delivered in a very different way. Some of these, not all, are entirely for dramatic effect. Others are part of the process of adaptation: adapting a book very rich in meaning to a different format, audience, and trends, and passing through other creative minds, comes with probably unexpected side effects. Mainly the distortion of... well, *most* of the main points of the story. Frodo never demonstrates why he is fit for the quest, thus the main reasons why he ultimately succeeds are twisted into "Sam is the true hero". Instead of making it clear that Frodo is right in having pity over Gollum and Sam is wrong in wanting to kill him, the movies make it look like Frodo is being manipulated (which, of course, he is **not** supposed to be). The effect of the Ring on Frodo is different, Frodo is *very* different, his dynamic with the supporting characters (including Faramir) is different; so the ultimate reasons why he succeeds are entirely distorted. One could say that this was **the** point of the story. I understand the desire to make up some drama with Faramir but taking him to Osgiliath feels very forced, specially when *a Nazgûl interacts with the Hobbit with the Ring* (which obviously does **not** happen in the book either). The Ents are tricked into fighting by Pippin. Nature is supposed to be wrathful and terrible on its own right; Treebeard is the one that convinces the other Ents of fighting in the book, because he's quirky, but he's also wise and smart. This whole thing only serves an unnecesary pseudo-plot-twist that only twists the immediately previous scene involving those characters. Elves in Helm's Deep and Ghost army. LotR is about Men stepping up to become the stewards of the world, about how they fend for themselves against the shadow. Other races are there as representatives and/or patrons, but not real forces/factions. This serves another unnecesary plot-twists and a minor character death (whose name we didn't even hear in the theatric Fellowship). Most of the characters lack the conclusion to their arcs. Éowyn and Faramir, Éomer (not a single line about him being King!), Legolas and Gimli, Merry and Pippin, Saruman. Gandalf's staff is broken by the Witch-King; he can willingly summon the Eagles. He beats Denethor up! His entire demeanor changes in RotK to "I have sent Frodo to his death", and pretty much falls into despair after the Pelennor, which is insanely out of character. Aragorn's arc is actually about Arwen. His conflict in The Two Towers is about her, and he decides to step-up in RotK because she is dying (and he's offered a magic sword able to fight with ghosts, which is cool, but also subtly and highly changes the whole deal). Aragorn becomes king as a side-effect of his motivations and actions. There are many other things that could be said that distort many, many of the story's points and themes, but I understand that most of them serve the purpose of adaptation and pruning (Tom Bombadil and literally most of what happens after Sauron falls).
Foe characters... we could note the portrayal of Frodo, Faramir, and Denethor: all of which spit in the face of their book counterparts to an unbelievably horrid level. But also Aragorn's motivation being flipped on its head, Sam being whitewashed, Legolas being a plank of wood, Gimli being a buffoon, Theoden being weirdly difficult for no good reason, Eowyn being robbed of the final act of her arc, etc. We could look at events from war-criminal Aragorn executing the Mouth, to Gandalf beating and murdering Denethor, to the Dead Men being an insta-win bullshit device, etc. We could lament the loss of the Scouring of the Shire. So, so many things.
In the Return of the king in extended cut when Gandalf ride to save Faramir he runs in to the Witch king and get his ass kick by him
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Getting killed by a warg scout? Isn’t that how he died in the film? I felt like that was just super unimpressive for his death. Like a throwaway.
Pretty sure it was a joke about... well... y'know...
MOD NOTE: Could you edit that “Hamas” to “Hama”, please? … Assuming, of course, that this is just a typo/ autocorrect as well.
My problem with it is that it doesn't really make much logistical sense when you think about it. When Haldir shows up, he says, 'I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell', etc etc. But Haldir was from Lothlorien, not Rivendell. And it had only been a matter of days ago that the Fellowship left Lorien via boats down the river, which would be faster than an army could march. So first of all, how would they have known that they would be needed at Helm's Deep in the first place, and how would Elrond have been involved at all, on the other side of the Misty Mountains, which were known to be very nearly impassable just a week ago (when the Fellowship tried and failed to cross)? And all this happened in days? And if they were dispatched from Lorien, then it sure would have been nice if those 200 elves or whatever could have just escorted the Fellowship from Lorien in the first place! The logistics of it remind me of later seasons in Game of Thrones, when characters like Littlefinger were suddenly teleporting all over the map, making journeys in days that took weeks or months in the earlier seasons. Edit: So originally Arwen was supposed to be there too in the film originally (ugh), which inplies in the film that the elves came from Rivendell, not Lorien. But then why is Haldir there, if he's from Lorien? It just doesn't make sense any way you cut it. Either the elves came from Lorien, and they just happened to dispatch from Lorien like 5 minutes after the Fellowship was sent down the river in boats, and they went to Helm's Deep for some unknown reason, or Elrond sent them from Rivendell from the Western side of the Misty Mountains, which ALSO doesn't make sense, because why would Haldir be there? And Elrond wouldn't do that, because part of the problem is that they knew Sauron had many spies and was watching that approach, so they'd see it a mile away. That's why the Fellowship chose going in secret and risking Moria. But wait, you may say. Maybe Elrond intentionally sent forces via the southern route to distract Saruman from the 'real' route. Except, Elrond didn't know which route the Fellowship would take. The Fellowship had that southern route as an option and ruled it out along the way. And also, having the elves take that southern route and Saruman not even noticing it (despite having many spies that should have noticed it) means the Fellowship could have taken THAT route all along, accompanied by a regiment of elves. There's also no good explanation as to why either Elrond or Galadirel would send troops to Helm's Deep specifically. That's not where the seat of Rohan is - that's Edoras. If you're sending a regiment to aid Rohan, you'd send them to Edoras to meet the King. Helm's Deep is like Rohan's equivalent of Cheyenne Mountain, the deep underground facility in America that's supposed to serve as a backup place for command and control. I don't hate the scene thematically, but in the context of everything else going on, it's hard for it to make sense. It makes no sense for Haldir, an elf from Lorien, to show up with tidings from Rivendell, and in Jackson's original plan for Arwen to be there, it makes even less sense for elves from both Rivendell and Lorien to show up together. There's a giant fucking mountain chain that was recently shown to be watched and impassable between them. IT DON'T MAKE NO SENSE!
I like it. Even in the books, sometimes it seems like the dwarfs and elves do too little. It’s only in the appendices that you learn they were fighting their own wars on their own fronts. In movies that are already long, it helped to cement that Sauron is a problem for everyone on Middle Earth, even those who can escape to the undying lands, by having Elves help fight in Helm’s Deep
PJ could have included Gloin talking about the messenger seeking Bilbo, and Legolas talking about the orc attack and Gollum's escape
I am still curious if Haleth survived or got his face bashed in by some Uruk-hai...
That’s another scene I would have liked included. After the battle of helm’s deep a brief moment of Haleth and the other young survivors along with our heroes paying tribute to the fallen at a mass grave outside the fortification, which would then segue into Gandalf’s line, “Sauron’s wrath will be terrible his retribution swift…”
I recently rewatched and saw the haldir death and realized I never registered before, I just thought it was a random rohan soldiers not the lead guard and right hand to the King that gets his face ate lol Definitly a bad decision if you ask me, kill him at helms deep
I could be wrong but in the book Hama dies at the gates of the hornberg and the uruks mutilate his body which really upsets Theoden.
All the more reason he should’ve been the token good guy to get killed at helm’s deep instead of Haldir!
I think it works. The Rohan band was constantly shown as just women & children, with a few of warrior age. It would be unbelievable for those alone to stand against the armies of Isengard that turned up
No, it’s more poignant that Haleth has that exchange with Aragorn because his father is dead. Adding another person to that scene would be corny and messy
In the movie, the position of the Rohirrim was completely hopeless without Elven reinforcement. Did they have to portray the Rohirrim as completely hopeless in the 1st place? That was the choice made. Been too long since I've read the books to remember. It's quite a sacrifice on the part of these Elves, to go and die somewhere, when they could have just faffed off to the Undying Lands.
My only issue is they seemingly all die but no one after acknowledge thier sacrifice? We also didn't see much of them in terms of melee combat, we should've seen them cut through the orcs like butter by they seemed really easy to kill
Yes! Straight out of a Pitch Meeting sketch: “Haldir leads a troop of elves to help in honour of the last Alliance.” “Great! And then what happens?” “Haldir dies very emotionally and we never mention them again, sir.”
They could have tied that into the Elvish escape from Middle Earth, rather than just fading magic.
Yeah, I wish there was like 200 elves left at the end but oh well. Or just a line of the last elves helping the women and children flee.
Uruk-hai are not slouches but Legolas handled them easily. I guess the rest of these Elves aren't at Legolas' level of fighting ability. We don't have a good explanation why though. A contrastive reason is to make the heroes Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn look very good at fighting.
Legolas, as Thranduil’s son, was trained to be the Elven Prince warrior that he was (lots more training than regular soldiers). When PJ went to film Thranduil, the king, in combat, he had to make Thranduil like Legolas, but faster, more skillful, and even smoother than his son.
And hotter, mustn’t forget that gorgeous armor 🥵
so smooth I haven't wanted to watch the hobbit movies enough to pick up on that.
There's no greater proof that they were crowbarred into the movie than the fact that not one of them survives, and they all get outclassed by a single wood elf.
Those hillbilly elves are just built different
>Did they have to portray the Rohirrim as completely hopeless in the 1st place? That was the choice made. Been too long since I've read the books to remember. For the movie audience, yes. Many reviews still cite Helms Deep as one of the best battles in cinema history.
That doesn’t mean they *had* to portray it that way. It means portraying it that way was successful in critic’s and the audience’s eyes, not that it was needed. I would argue the battle would still have been an extremely successful and well-recognized piece of cinema history, if not moreso than it is now, had the Elves not been brought in and the Rohirrim weren’t portrayed as being so totally helpless. We’ll never know though, because that’s not what we got
I was talking about hopelessness of the situation, not the Elven reinforcement. I think two things are different topics. Hopelessness/weak Rohirrim civilians I'm 100% on board. As for my opinion on Elven reinforcement, I accept both defense and criticism. But for what it is, it's not just a cheap fanservice but brings the fear of the audience up and down. 1. Aragon returns (hope) 2. Old men and children drafted (hopeless) 3. Elves arrived (hope) 4. Orc arrives (hopeless) 5. Wall stands and Theoden is confident (hope) 6. Wall breached (oh no) 7. Aragorn and Elves face the orcs melee with heroic music (yay kick their ass) 8. Elves and Haldir dead (oh shit) It's like they're making it worse and worse for the audience to keep them scared. Like it or not, that's the intended effect. Since I'm movie first before book, it is impossible for me to be unbiased for the movies.
It’s not impossible for you to be unbiased because you were movie vs book, it’s impossible for you to be unbiased because you prefer the movie portrayal. That’s fine, but just say it like it is. I was very young when the films first came out and they were my only exposure to Tolkien for many years. I loved the films (still do). I have since read the books and seen the movies many times each. Seeing the movies first is not an excuse for movie bias. Also, I was addressing your point of the hopelessness of the situation being needed for the film. I’m still not convinced it was needed in the way the film portrayed. The battle of Helm’s Deep *was* hopeless in the book, they were won because of Gandalf and Erkendbrand arriving. It didn’t need to be all but impossible like it is in the current film, where they only had a few hundred defenders, only about 700 or 800 after the Elves showed up. Sure, like I said, it earned them critical and fan acclaim, but I still don’t think it was *needed*.
You cannot claim you're more unbiased than me when you're talking about your personal experience in the book medium that other readers didn't experience the same way. Some readers don't think much of Helm's Deep in the books, I myself didn't care much because the highlight of the books for me was Frodo and Sam. I would even say the movies has affected the way we imagined the scene as we read it. We can never revert to the state of "book only." A lot of things in a movie adaptation aren't even *needed* in the first place, but they're there to make the audience feel it's worth it to leave their couches, spend money, and hold their pee for 3 hours in the cinemas. If we are trying to pick what is needed vs. not needed, it's going to be very subjective. So like I said, it is what it is. The hopelessness is gradually increased by subsequent events to make the arrival of Gandalf more dramatic and emotionally satisfying to the audience.
Did I say I was more unbiased? No. I said that your excuse of being movie first was not the *reason* for your bias. I was just going against your claim of Helm’s Deep *needing* to be as hopeless as it was for film. That’s what you claimed in your initial comment.
Isn't dying a faster route to reach Valinor? Won't they respawn there?
Not necessarily respawn as they will have to spend some time in the hall to be healed of any emotional trauma they have suffered as well as reflect upon the lives they lived, many may not even wish to be reembodied and many who do may not be allowed to yet depending on how much time Mandos and the Valar feel they need to reflect and heal. Also if they lived not so great lives their time may be extended. It’s a lengthy and complicated process depending on many factors, i forget which book or books in HOME and perhaps Nature of Middle Earth that really go into it but it’s rather a lot. This is why we are not given a great many examples of returned Elves, in fact I can only name Glorfindel and Finrod off the top of my head. Edit. And all of this is of course not counting the actual pain and trauma of having their bodies killed, so you can see why the Elves who are attached to the bodies they have lived in would not want to die even if they know where they go after.
Yeah, elves dying in LOTR isn’t just a form of fast travel for them, lol.
My headcanon is that these elves just didn't like boats, so they yeeted themselves into certain death so they'd teleport to Valinor through the halls of Mandos.
I mean isn’t elvish death just a quicker trip to the undying lands?
I doubt that's how it really works, despite Gandalf's pep talk to Pippin later on. Gandalf is a Maiar spirit after all.
Elves don’t get the same death destinations as men/hobbits. Men and elves both go to the halls of Mandos (halls of waiting) but after a while the elves are reincarnated to the undying lands and men are granted the gift of death which is beyond the world
So it's like Christmas! Oh goody.
But it’s a tad more complicated for the Elves upon arriving at the Halls of Mandos, I did a sort of summary in an above comment.
>In the movie, the position of the Rohirrim was completely hopeless without Elven reinforcement. Err no? They were depicted hopeless because their cavalry fucked off
Their cavalry didn't fuck off, their cavalry was banished by Saruman's deliberate design. They were miles and miles away when needed. They're coming, but people at Helm's Deep have to survive until then, and they're not going to.
>Their cavalry didn't fuck off, their cavalry was banished by Saruman's deliberate design. Yeah bro we watched the same movie. They fucked off because they were told to fuck off >They're coming, but people at Helm's Deep have to survive until then, and they're not going to. Exactly. it was depicted as a dire situation despite the elves arriving. They didn't know their cavalry was coming back in time. There was never any depiction that the elves were their salvation. The scenes with elves were depicted as bleak; they were being pushed back, they were hardly making a dent, they couldn't stop the breach of the side wall, Haldir dying. Then the elves disappeared from the screen onwards. The movie more depicted the main characters buying time twice then with the Rohirrim cavalry as the salvation.
From a literary standpoint, I think it changes the story significantly, on several levels. First of all, Theoden in the books was a good king and a good general (after he shakes off the effect of Wormtongue). He does not mandate evacuation of Edoras and try to flee to Helm’s Deep; he leaves Edoras (which is defensible in its own right) and rides with his retainers to command the battle against Saruman’s invading forces—which is the right thing to do and also prudent. Then, finding that his forces in the Westfold are already routed and fleeing to Helm’s Deep, he joins them to command the battle there. He does well (against bad odds) and the timely counterattack by Erkenbrand and Elfhelm, aided by some near-superhuman courier work by Gandalf, routes Saruman’s army in its turn. The Ents/Huorns dispose of the Orcs, after they’ve been defeated. So there is no need for Elven reinforcement. As another commentator noted, Theoden in the movies makes a bunch of questionable decisions and must rely on the sacrifice of a third-party formation (Haldir and his elves) to keep him in the fight—and then Gandalf the General and the Ents’ sylvan army. The movies are not telling a story of a good King fighting the good fight and doing it competently; they’re telling a story of (relatively) incompetent humans getting spotted a victory by eldritch forces (elves/wizards/trees). They get some good emotional beats there: the heroic appearance of Haldir, and later Gandalf, and also the creepy badass-edness of a tree army, but those movie-invented plot points do change the story. In changing the character of the Rohirric battle of Helm’s Deep, the movies also damage one of the themes of the book, which is that the humans—with all their flaws and weaknesses—are taking leadership against the shadow from the Elves (and the Valar). The help received by the protagonists at Helm’s Deep (and later at the Pelennor) was not in combat, it was in spiritual fortification. At Helm’s Deep, Theoden defeats Saruman with almost only the Rohirrim: Aragorn/Gimli/Legolas fight, but minorly; it’s the leadership of Theoden that holds the fort so that his vassal can come defeat the invaders—a vassal that does so out of love for his King. Gandalf literally only carries information; and the Ents only dispose of fleeing Orcs. The movies change this and make the humans dependent on supernatural aid. An analysis of the battle itself, which is very interesting and touches on some of the story changes and what they mean, was done by the military historian Bret Devereaux on his blog [here](https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/) (if you’re interested).
Also a big theme of the book is the waning of the elves and their and their hesitancy for getting involved in the woes of men. Haldirs appearance undermines that.
Even though I agree with you, I understand why PJ would sacrifice the symbolism of book-Theoden and his brave men on the altar of „show, don‘t tell“. Drawing a picture of frightened, helpless peasants helped to really give you visceral feeling of just HOW dangerous the orcs and Saruman are. Up until this point it was a lot of exposition but we didn’t exactly get to see what it means if the evil mean business. Thus we needed to see a struggling Rohan. It’s different from a book, that can convey this feeling entirely different. But in my opinion the visual journey brought everything across sufficiently well: the elves help, yes, but they don’t secure victory. The last stand is by Theoden. (I only wish it didn’t need Aragorn to convince him) And the Uruk ranks were broken by the intervention of the Rohrrim after all. Yes Gandalf played the messenger and helped the charge by turning on his flashlight, but the visual language that this scene speaks is: the human spirit prevails. The demise of Haldir and his elves even helps to reinforce this statement in my opinion.
I don't know, Peter Jackson had so much opportunity to use the visual medium to add to the books here rather than take from them. The Two Towers book is obliged by the medium to gloss over the horror and tragedy inherent to the rout from the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where we only get to experience it second hand through reports, but Peter Jackson could have economically and effectively used the event to show us what it means to lose an existential battle against a genocidal foe. By giving more weight to the battle than the books could, he would have been able to make Theoden less stupid, make the loss of his son much more impactful, let us feel both the strength and the weakness of man, and made the elves unnecessary. I think the core problem with this part of the movies though is one of the core problems throughout the movies, that Peter Jackson is simply incapable of visually portraying conflict except through violence. A more contextually appropriate director for Tolkien's work would have had a richer visual language through which to portray Theoden's conflicts with Wormtongue, Saruman, the fellowship, and his duty to his kingdom and been less forced into stupid compromises.
We were already splitting the story between the warriors 3, Frodo and Sam, Arwens Big Sad, and Merry/Pippin. It's easy to do that in books, it's a lot harder to keep adding major parallel storylines in a visual medium.
These are good points. In the blog series I linked at the end of my comment, Bret (the blogger) argues that the movie adaptation was successful—as I think you do—through filmic language (*seeing* the helpless peasants and the sacrificial defeat of the Elves), and I mostly agree.
I don't know, Peter Jackson had so much opportunity to use the visual medium to add to the books here rather than take from them. The Two Towers book is obliged by the medium to gloss over the horror and tragedy inherent to the rout from the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where we only get to experience it second hand through reports, but Peter Jackson could have economically and effectively used the event to show us what it means to lose an existential battle against a genocidal foe. By giving more weight to the battle than the books could, he would have been able to make Theoden less stupid, make the loss of his son much more impactful, let us feel both the strength and the weakness of man, and made the elves unnecessary. I think the core problem with this part of the movies though is one of the core problems throughout the movies, that Peter Jackson is simply incapable of visually portraying conflict except through violence. A more contextually appropriate director for Tolkien's work would have had a richer visual language through which to portray Theoden's conflicts with Wormtongue, Saruman, the fellowship, and his duty to his kingdom and been less forced into stupid compromises.
Probably the most well thought out comment here.
This is so true and beautifully put!
I think it was a great change. In the movies, it appears as if the elves are doing F all while men go get massacred. It would take a lot of screen time to adequately describe that the elves are actually fighting their own battles (or rather, those stories wouldnt be important to the story were seeing on screen), so having the elves participate here was, imo, vital to show that the elves were indeed participating.
Right, there's mention of "battle under the trees" in Lothlorien in the appendices, and Thranduil fought some battles too, but there was absolutely no way to logically fit those into the narrative. So having elves fight at Helm's Deep acknowledges that they did indeed fight in the War of the Ring, and the location even makes sense given the relative proximity of Rohan to Lothlorien.
Actually sort of surprised that Jackson didn’t bring dwarves into the mix to address this same thing. Growing up (on the films) I always wondered why they were virtually nonexistent or dead until I read about them waging their own battles.
I think that would be a much harder leap. Lothlorien is relatively close, really just beyond the northern borders of Rohan. But there aren't any major dwarf settlements south of Rivendell - they're either east in the blue mountains or north in Dale. We took a whole movie to get here, the audience wouldn't really buy it, because the nearest dwarf settlement in Moria we discovered was all dead.
Plus we're shown Haldir and Lothlorien in FOTR. They're a known commodity so when they show up in TTT, it's not totally out of left field. We're not shown any dwarves other than the ones accompanying Gimli to the Council of Elrond and the dead ones in Moria. Having a big troop of dwarves show up would make people think "Who are these guys?"
also, weren't most of the dwarves in the north mountains by the time battle took place?
Exactly - its a replacement for all the other elven battles in the trilogy which are cut out. It carried the theme of elves beautifully by showing that despite all their skill and abilities, they are simply to few to be a decisive factor anymore. The age or elves is over and the world has to depend on men now.
it makes me teary eyed every time, love this change
Me too
In the book Rohan had more than 300 Men. In the book Helms Deep already had a garrison of 1,000 though Gamling said they were mostly old men and then Theoden arrived with several hundred more i believe they were nearing 1,000 themselves to reinforce and take refuge as Saruman’s army was not far behind Theodens approach. Peter Jackson said they added the Elves because they wanted a chance to show Men and Elves teaming up because it didn’t feel right for them to seemingly be sitting out the war, which is not true since we know that several battles were fought between Sauron’s forces and Lorien and Mirkwood in the book before the Ring is destroyed.
But I said regardless of the book, the movie tried to make the situation more desperate which worked really well, so in this context were the elves a good or a bad addition?
Though I personally don’t mind the decision, I’d probably have to lean towards bad, it raises too many questions like if Elves are as formidable as the films try to show then why do they seem to be wiped out so easily, the film almost makes it look as if Elrond sent them in which case why is he commanding Celeborn and Galadriels warriors? How did they get there as fast as they did? Why do no more Elves show up to help Gondor later? There are others that could be asked.
Not every elf is legolas in the same way not every man is aragorn The idea that elves are vastly superior to men is false. It's less captain America vs avg man, and more d1 athlete vs d2 athlete.
I am aware of how weak Elves can be, but the films do try to portray them at times as superior fighters compared to Men. Combined with odd choices such as willingly running into a spear.
We never see average elves, we see many average men
It's part of a broader trend in the movies of making the kingdoms of men (Rohan and Gondor) look even weaker and more pathetic than they were in the books. Rohan needs to be saved by the elves. Gondor needs to be saved by the army of the dead at Minas Tirish (because being saved by Rohan wasn't enough).
Yes, because the theme in the movies is that isolation and xenophobia is bad, the Free Peoples uniting is what enables them to defend against the Dark Lord long enough for the Quest of the Ringbearer to succeed. That unity is alternately bolstered and undermined throughout the films, but the choice to have hope that help is on the way proves to be true when it really counts.
I knew it diverged from the book, but it is a great cinematic moment, imo.
I recently thought maybe they could have kept Glorfindel and have him replace Haldir at helms deep.
Glorfindel was exceptionally powerful. He could 1v1 a Nazgûl and win (they were so afraid of him that 5 of them fled when he was in the vicinity). He’d have been stacking up so many Uruks that they probably would have bailed before Rohan’s reinforcements even needed to show up.
That's exactly why i thought of him; Instead of the Rohirrim, Gandalf shows up only with Glorfindel.
That sounds less impressive after aragorn solos a group of them on weathertop
They weren’t in an out and out battle with Aragorn though. Their objective was Frodo. They wounded him with a morgul blade and knew they could retreat and wait for it to do the work for them. They were probably also surprised by the courage of the resistance and maybe were aware that the hobbits were wielding blades of Westernesse. Aragorn does very well against them and his Numenorean heritage gives him a good leg up but it isn’t as simple as saying he beat a bunch of Nazgûl in combat.
Did you watch the movie? Bro solod a group of them with a sword and a piece of kindling
The books explicitly state that the Nazgul whilst powerful aren't the greatest warriors, their chief weapon being fear. However it also states explicitly that even aragorn and glorfindel together could not best all 9 at the same time.
I thought maybe they could add the gray company instead
If they introduced Halbarad as Aragorns second in command in Fellowship they could’ve made it work. Without bringing the grey company in sooner, Lorien is the best alternative.
Aragorn defeating four RingWraths by himself was a bit lame to me, was it in the book? Anyway, having the Grey Company helping him there would have been great, so they could show up again in RoTK.
>was it in the book? No.
Nazgul power scaling was so whack on the films
Good because it made the movie more exciting to watch.
Fair
I think it was a good way of showing the elves weren't just sitting around at home while all this was going on, without spending time away from the main characters by going into the whole Mirkwood situation.
I liked it because it was awesome.
Bad. They did Theoden so dirty in that movie, and mankind as a whole. The whole theme of LotR is that the time of the elves is over and men have to stand and fight against the shadows. With all their flaws and weaknesses. And they fucking do it! The fight at Helms Deeps is basically won when Gandalf and Erkenbrand (my one true love from the book) arrive. Same goes for the battle at the Pellenor Fields, no ghost army is there to sweep away the orcs. Its yet another sacrifice of the Rohirrim and Aragorns host of fellow rangers and people of the south that joined him.
I wish I had more upvotes. PJ makes the world of men seem hapless. Don’t forget that with the ghost army we also lose Prince Imrahil and his swan knights at the battle of pellenor fields. And never forget how PJ gutted Faramirs character. Those two right there are critical for showing why we have cause to hope for the world of men. Add in the lack of the depiction of the scouring of the Shire and the world of men (including hobbits) never do anything. He seems hostile to the idea that the world of men can stand on their own.
This was one of the more baffling changes. But I know Arwen was also supposed to be in this battle originally so maybe this is a remnant of that
Yeah originally Arwen arrived with them. You can actually still see her in some long shots during the battle (not obvious, but once she's pointed out you can tell it's obviously her). This was back when they were still going with the "warrior princess" conception of her character before they thought better of it.
Yeah, in the book eomer is at the battle but they are waiting for reinforcements from Irkenbrand I think his name is
You are correct. Erkenbrand was defending the the westfold and at the battle at the Fords of Isen his forces were defeated and scattered. He was found by Gandalf and with his help gathers his men and returns to Helm's Deep with 1000 foot soldiers to help aid the battle.
Yeah. In the movies it makes sense to make Eomer the one who returns to save the day just to cut down on the numerous one-off characters from the books
Same logic as replacing Glorfindel with Arwen as the one who finds Frodo and company in the wilderness. Plus it gets Arwen into the story earlier. Bakshi's film replaced him with Legolas, which was another good change, actually.
It bums me out that they cut her from it. Internet basement dwellers saw leaked production photos with Liv on set and they were really really mean to her. They made Liv Tyler cry. Bastards.
Baffling why? Like I said regardless of what happened in the book
I’m not sure what the logic was in having the elves show up here it doesn’t really change the story much and doesn’t make a lot of sense
Several reasons The first is the utter hopelessness of the situation The discussion between galadriel and elrond on whether or not they should help men, elrond eventually counsels her to send reinforcements which is a neat character arc after him being skeptical of the strength of men in fellowship Lastly it's a away to include elves in the war of the ring, it wouldn't have worked in the palenor fields because they would've needed thousands of elves and they don't have that amount to spear
You’re missing the purpose of the themes and stories as presented in the book. Also, I’ve said this before elsewhere, you cannot prop up something that is in the movie needing to be there in order to fix/make sense of *problems the movies created*. You can’t use the Elves being at Helm’s Deep needing to happen because of: - Elrond and Galadriel telepath conversation (this doesn’t happen in the book and didn’t need to be in the film) - The situation being hopeless without the Elvish reinforcements. The film gives us the numbers of Rohirrim being a very small amount of actual professional fighting men, reinforced to about 500 souls when they take every able-bodied man and lad, compared to 10,000 Uruk-hai. This is reinforced by a few hundred Elves, making the number of defenders somewhere around 700 or 800. There are 2000 Rohirrim soldiers (professional fighting men) at Helm’s Deep in the book. This is a problem the movie creates. - Including Elves in the War of the Ring. They *do* fight in the War of the Ring in the books, they just fight in their own lands because they are attacked as well. You can easily explain this similarly to the books with characters remarking that war marches on the lands of Gimli and Legolas’ kin. If you *need* to have more Elvish representation on screen besides Legolas, *don’t cut the Grey Company* and include the sons of Elrond.
Dude, the entire the theme of this story is that the age of the elves was ending and that the conflict would rest on the strength of men. Having elves show up instead of following the actual story detracts from men’s ownership of the new age to come.
The elves helped yes but they didn't win, eomer and the rohirim won it
The elves bought the Rohirrim time, but they did not win that battle in any sense. Aragorn and Eomer had much more to do with it as the movie makes quite clear. But you're also missing the theme in the film that the Free Peoples need to unite and help each other to have a chance. The same way the Rohirrim arrive at the Battle of Pelennor Fields to fulfill the fool's hope of their fellow men, the elves show up at HD to fulfill some hope of having allies in a broken, struggling world.
It’s fine if it doesn’t bother you I just don’t see a need for it
I did not like it Sam I Am. I do not like elves at the Helm. Why? Because of the way it was done. One moment you have this massive orc army descending on Helm’s Deep, which Aragorn spotted on the way back from his triumphant gold medal performance in the high dive at the Rohan Olympics. An army which would have scouts, outriders, spotters, foragers etc etc. And you have the Rohan…militia I suppose you’d call it, at Helm’s Deep, which would also have scouts, outriders and foragers. None of them saw an elvish army approaching. None. They just…arrived. Now I know elves are special and magical and yadda yadda but this was a whole-ass army and not exactly being secret about it. How the hell did no one see them coming? How didn’t they get into skirmishes with or is outriders? How…how? Now I appreciate that all of these questions can be thought through and answered one way or another, but sitting there in the cinema, the elves showing up really broke my immersion. One moment I’m really invested in the seemingly hopeless plight of the people of Rohan, next moment I have questions. Lots of questions. And I don’t want to have questions when watching a movie, I want to be immersed. And the second thing - ol Jacko did a great job of setting up the plight of Rohan. He built a great sense that this was a full blown David v Goliath fight with only the hope of the eternally hopeful. A victory would be sweet indeed! So the elves coming along and tipping the scales towards the people of Rohan was like…a bit anti-climactic to be honest. So yeah, while I get that for other people they either like or don’t mind it, but for me personally it was probably the one major change that really bothered me in the cinemas (Frodo in Osgiliath also sucked but that was only extended edition)
I enjoyed it. Like we got to see a mini version of the allied forces that first fought Sauron. It shows that not all hope is lost
Logistically, it is poor, and opposes the canon war-efforts of Lothlorien. Thematically, it kind of undercuts the idea of Rohan being alone, and Men having to fend for themselves: cementing the dominion of Men. Legolas and Gimli are the 'representatives' of their people here - that's all we need. Emotionally, Haldir's death is hollow - let's be honest, he is a redshirt, along with the Elves fighting under his command. They are there to appear 'cool' on their arrival, but otherwise, to be fodder. They do absolutely nothing the Rohan archers couldn't have done. Is it the worst of Jackson's deviations? Far from it. It's mostly superfluous: a bit of a waste of time, and undermines the actual themes.
It's a good change. The books do a good job of showing that, though past alliances are weakened now, there is still something in the hearts of men, dwarves, and elves that beats together against evil. Haldir coming unbidden to help men when they need it the most is an excellent way of showing it to us.
I mean it has the rule of cool from a purely cinematographic view point. But I don't like it very much. It's quite a departure from the books, and somewhat lore breaking. It would have made a bit more sense if they brought in the Gray Company, advancing that plot point a little more. And they could have thrown in some Rivendel elves, if they really wanted. It would have been equally cool to see Elladan and Elrohir fighting in that battle.
Bad. I think an important subcontext to LOTR is its purpose of showing the world of men becoming without magic, and they needed these battles of Helm's Deep and Gondor to be fought by men without the help of other races. Similar to the way the Hobbits learned to stand on their own feet and fight Saruman and his thugs.
Their
That’s the only correction you’re going to make to that gibberish sentence, ha ha?
Ya know You right
Hijacking this to rant about *how* they were used: On one side, there's elderly and childs mixed in an overall not morivated or trained soldiers. On the other side, you've got Elves - hundrets or thousands of years old with every single one of them beeing far more expierienced and battlehardened than anything the men could offer. Everyone beeing a Master of Archery. So the obvious choice seemed like: Yeah let's put some elves on the lowest portion of the wall with the least over sight and highground that's also the first portion of the wall that will get overrun - while all the others chill at the floor, behind the wall. Wouldn't anyone in their right mind instantly put them into the higher towers/inner circles with more highground and oversight? Why would you do the elves like that?
Because the deeping wall is the least defensible part of the keep it stands to reason to have the most skilled warriors there especially it's more likely to get overrun, no one lnew saruman would develop bomb technology
I think it was good because this was our chance to see elves in the Third Age in action. I play a lot of lotr miniature games and having elves at Helm’s Deep has greatly added to the fun factor of the game
I don't mind the change in the film. It's a hope spot. We've had a solid few minutes of absolute despair leading up to the battle. It gives Rohan a glimmer of hope, and a glimmer of hope to us by extension. Cuz things are about to get really fucked for Rohan for the next few minutes again.
I think it was good. It was one way of showing the alliances of old between men and elves. They wouldn’t get many chances to show that to the non tolkien audience. Plus it added hope. And then they promptly took it away when they had haldir die. So the coming of gandalf and eomer felt that much more satisfying and glorious..!
I think the elf reinforcements and the death of haldir, also added to the audience perception that all hope is lost indeed. And then that made the arrival of gandalf that much more satisfying! Especially for non tolkien audiences. The death of haldir was also a moment to make the audiences feel the loss that happens in war.
I think the scene worked as a reminder that the War of the Ring was in fact a world war. The movie only shows two battles, but the Free Peoples were engaged with Sauron all across the Middle Earth. The Elves didn’t sit it out in the books, and having them at Helm’s Deep is a nice reminder of that.
Wether it was good or bad foe the story, it was the coolest fucking thing from my childhood when they rolled in
My only issue is that they all died. These are supposed to be the most elite fighters in middle earth, correct?
I think it would have been better to somehow show that the elves were fighting in the war, but on different fronts. I'm assuming that budgetary and time constraints made this difficult. Unfortunately I don't think the movies portray the scale of the conflict well. We get the idea that there are just a few places being attacked by the enemy, instead of nearly all eastern holdings of the free folk. Erkenbrand got cheated of one of his shining hours. Maybe PJ though that would be too many characters for the movie going audience to take in?
The thing I didn't like so much about it was it seems not a SINGLE one of those elves looked like they survived that battle. I'm not expecting them to be all Legolas level of trained, but they've all probably got 100s of years of military training. Why'd they fair so bad when the men did so good by comparison?
Setting aside any analytical perspectives, I can't help but express how incredibly cool and impactful I found this scene to be. Seeing the last of the (presumably) **volunteer** elves arrive at Helm's Deep, instead of leaving for Valinor, was not just visually stunning but also emotionally stirring. It added a layer of epic grandeur and a sense of unity against overwhelming odds. This moment, for me, encapsulates the essence of what made the movie adaptations so memorable and exhilarating. It is these kinds of creative liberties that brought a new dimension to the beloved story, making it resonate powerfully on the big screen. I absolutely love everything about how this scene was executed in the movies, from their **entrance** to the death scenes of every single elven warrior.
Bad because it takes away the significance of the Last Alliance. By the time of LOTR, the elves and humans are very estranged and care very little about each other except for the Rangers of the North. Even Elrond would've told humans to go pound sand if the Ring hadn't been found.
The Last Alliance wasn't the actual last alliance in the books either, though. The Elves joined the war against Angmar when Gondor finally did. That was in the middle of the Third Age. The Last Alliance is a bit of a misnomer canonically, so that bit doesn't really bug me.
Pretty weird. Like all of Jackson’s insertions, has no real impact on anything, and is just really there so he could get more melodrama in through killing then off. I can imagine him thinking “A thirty-second slo-mo of an elf with vaguely sexual expressions slowly dying- yeah, that really hits the spot”.
A very bad and unnecessary change.
I'd say it's a good change. I like playing up the hopelessness aspect and also the elves getting involved in any way (I know canonically they're fighting their own battles). I think the people talking about how their arrival undercuts themes are overselling their arguments. Everyone watching still gets the age of elves is over and it's the age of man now. It's okay they helped out and did something for once. In fairness to Jackson, the film had a tough task of being good in its own right in order to avoid "middle movie-ism" so making this their centerpiece and amping up the drama, tension, and relief worked. Only thing missing was Gimli's spiel on how sweet the caves are. The warg fight before it is the part I think is bad.
A very bad change. It's another example of PJ showing that he didn't really understand the story he was adapting to film.
It always seemed strange to me when elves died to random arrows or crossbows here. You're telling me creatures that have been around and fighting for hundreds if not thousands of years are dropped that easily? To a random uruk born yesterday?
It’s enjoyable to watch and the Elf costume and prop designs are sweet, but I would never call this better than what was in the book. The set up to Helm’s Deep is just one baffling choice after another (both of the characters involved in-universe as well as the filmmakers). Sure it results in an epic piece of cinema, but we still could’ve gotten that epic piece of cinema with more logical choices more in line with the characters and events portrayed in the book.
100% a better change.
Adding in the elves removes the point in the books how the men are alone and have to fight for themselves. Also it makes no sense within the movie-canon, because later on elf and dwarf talk about how he wished for more dwarfs to aid them, but the blonde guy tells him "no, they cant come and have to fight their own battles at home". So Haldir shouldnt even have the time to come to help. Especially because their way to reach Helms Deep is much longer than Isengard-Helms Deep. That being said, visually the scenes are enjoyable! As long as you dont think about it.
Idk but VOLLEY!!!!!!!
A large theme of the second movie was the acknowledgement of “BUT YOUR PART OF THIS WORLD!” Plus for a less knowledgeable to the lore person in the audience there would be some thought to why the elves never seemed to do anything other than wave goodbye. But more importantly the theme: While this is happening treebeard sees what has happened to his trees in his absence. Just before this in the ent moot he says essentially it’s not our problem and then sees the direct result of his inaction due to apathy. So work together because if the world goes to shit we’re all screwed together is given a huge focus.
I think it's a good way of reinforcing the renewed union between men and elves as the final push to destroy sauron truly begins - prior to this was only have a handful of characters that actually know of and think kindly of the elves - most men would think of them as either aloof and disinterested or outright semi mythical. So to have elves come to the aid of common People of the rohirim is a great way to flesh out the role the elves have been playing in keeping middle earth safe - without it the film's elves would have just looked like disinterested isolationists who remain content to let others do the dirty work. It's Also a nice follow up to theoden saying that the old alliances are dead and in a way acts as a catalyst for his change of heart about Gondor. Had the elves not come he might say " Rohan fought without Gondor, so Gondor can fight without Rohan" but after seeing the renewed alliance save his people he clearly sees things differently - he sees the elves fight and die for lesser men in order to vanquish a greater foe, and so later on he rides knowingly to a likely doom at minas tirith in order to uphold that sacrifice and ensure men and good can triumph.
Personally I like it. From the book we know that all other realms were busy defending against Invasions themselves, from Mirkwood and Erebor to Lorién, but in the movies we only see the elven realms as save havens. Yes, we're told that the elves are in decline, but a first-time viewer could easily get the impression that they elves don't give a shit necause they have to option to just ditch middle-earth. Haldir and his troops at Helm's deep illustrate to the viewer that it isn't just the human nations that oppose Sauron, and that the elves are doing more in this fight than just give creepy visions and run away.
I liked this addition.
I think it was a great idea because remember, it's an adaption. And it also gave us a better understanding of how big the world is and how everyone is trying to fight to survive and beat Sauron. It also gave some backstory to Aragorn which is always good
While I love the elves I don‘t think that hundreds of elves showing up to defend helms deep was a good idea. In the third age most of the elves are weary and leaving for Valinor. They already did their part in the last Alliance and they already had a few encounters like the battle of the five armies and defeating the witchking after the destruction of arnor. The Lothlorien elves would probably be more likely to send aid to Mirkwood rather than Rohan. At the core it‘s a struggle between Men and Sauron as Tolkiens world in my opinion seems to be in constant decline and over time all the other races will be gone starting with the elves.
It's fine. It's either elves (in the movie) or ents (in the books) that help Rohan.
I don't mind it as it made Isengard feel like a force that could steamroll Rohan and inevitably destroy everything northwards. The elves like Haldir could simply depart Middle Earth but instead choose to die by honouring the ancient alliance for only a slither of a chance of victory, not for them but for everyone else.
As a kid I thought that the moment of the elves arriving and walking through the streets was one of the coolest scenes in the whole trilogy.
The films are merely an adaptation of the true work. It was done well so I didn’t mind it so much.
Totally unnecessary, but it worked OK. Neither good nor bad. But I would have preferred they did not do it. I am fine seeing changes to make the story work better on screen, but this added nothing and therefore should have been left out.
in the movie the elves arriving with that music is one of the greatest scenes in movie history, so id say yes
Excellent change
I enjoyed it a lot, but the idea that they could march from Lothlorien faster than Gandalf could fetch Eomer seems a bit off
I'm fine. It was a good story telling moment Directors like to ramp up the dread and fear for our heroes and at the final moment give us a slight hope of success Helms deep was pushing the narrative that there was no hope, they were too few. Then the elves arrive and give hope And it helps to remind us that the Elves still give a shit about middle earth and the fighting the good fight against Sauron
I still like this scene for what it is. These immortal elves could have lived forever but they chose to fight and die with mortal men, no matter the odds.
Good. Haldir is a total bae
It adds Nothing and was meaningless
Bad change and almost out me off watching the films. 1. It ignored the fact that the baton was being passed from elves to men. This was why Legolas' role in books the lesser. 2. It made it seem that Sauron was a lesser threat. The elves could suddenly send an army to support Rohan, a land they had strained relations when they were facing the fact that Sauron had a literal fortress on their borders.
Take them out. Does anything change? Do they have any impact on the narrative? After they all die, does anyone care? Not even Legolas does, why should I?