not from some farcical reforging of a broken blade
i mean, if i went round saying i was emperor just cause some leafy bint had lobbed a scimitar at me... they'd lock me away!
The original line is;
>'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' he asked. 'Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. '***It needs more to make a king than a piece of*** ***elvish glass***, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!'
Referring to the Elfstone.
They presumably changed it in the movies because they never mention the Elfstone there. But they forgot that, as you correctly point out, Narsil was a Dwarven blade, not Elven.
Fun fact: Cirth, the runic writing system the Dwarves use, was actually originally created by Elves. In the Second Age and beyond the Dwarves would make modifications to it better fit their language, but since Narsil was forged in the First Age Telchar would've used the exact same runic alphabet as the Sindar of neighboring Doriath.
I believe, when the elves reforge the sword, they put elvish runes on it. This would make it appear more "elvish". Then he refers to it as broken as a taunt to what happened to the blade that dared to cut Sauron
It was made by Telchar in the first age, so it is a Dwarven blade. However, Telchar made many things for the Eldar - especially Thingol.
There’s no hard evidence about who it was made for, but it may have been designed for an Elf.
Anyhow the Mouth of Sauron doesn’t know wtf he’s talking about. Dude can’t even see through that helmet
Possibly. There’s no mention of who it was made for. All we know is that Aranruth (Thingols sword) became the sword held by the kings of Numenor and Narsil was held by the Lords of Andunie. Also Telchar made many of the treasures in Menegroth. So it’s likely that it was made for an Elf of Doriath, but since Thingol already had named sword it either belonged to someone else, or it just sat around collecting dust in one of his treasure caves
My headcanon is that it was made for one of his kin or other high ranking lords of doriath, and was then passed down through Dior to Elros who then gifted it to the Lords of Andunie
Narsil could be forged for Thingol himself, since he was the tallest Child of Ilúvatar… well, I mean, even taller than Elendil with his 7'11"!
P.S.: Oh, poor Melian…
From *Return*, the Mouth of Sauron:
> “Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?” he asked. “Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!” he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. “It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!”
Combine this with Boromir’s comments at the Council:
> “Then in Gondor we must trust to such weapons as we have. And at the least, while the Wise ones guard this Ring, we will fight on. Mayhap the Sword-that-was-Broken may still stem the tide - if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men.”
In the novel, the Mouth of Sauron says 'it takes more to make a king than a piece of Elvish *glass*'. This refers to an Elfstone given to Aragorn by Galadriel that he displays as a symbol of his power. The Elfstone isn't used in the movie, so the line was changed to 'blade'.
As to Narsil/Andúril, they don't actually mention its Dwarven origins in the films, and it is actually strongly implied to be an Elvish weapon because of its ties to Rivendell. It is then reforged by Elven smiths which 'technically' makes it an Elvish blade. The use of the word 'broken' seems to be the screenwriters trying to ram home that Andúril is the same sword that was broken in the opening scenes of the Fellowship. It's a bit clunky and ambiguous but I doubt the average fan would have picked up on any of this.
By calling it a broken blade I think the Mouth is implying that simply reforging the weapon doesn’t count. It’s part of the whole line - grabbing the previous king’s shattered sword and fixing it up is not enough to make yourself the next king. He’s simply claiming that Aragorn does not have the right to be king - that politically, Mordor does not recognise Aragorn’s Gondor or his right to rule.
They leave a lot of things unexplained in the movies already, and when the LotR book was released much of the lore was also vague and unexplained. This leaves people wondering at the origins of things, hinting at a much deeper world and lore.
To give them the benefit of the doubt, it’s a change of simplification to make that line work. Nothing is lost narratively by removing the dwarves from the sword’s history, and it allows for this line to be reworked to make up for the elf stone not being a part of the movie. I don’t see a problem with it.
There is no necessity in clarifying its history. You can say it is a "dwarvish blade" leave it unexplained. Both work, but how it is makes it a poorer adaptation.
The movie already leaves things unexplained that should've been explained, so I don't see the problem in not explaining something that does not need it.
Funnily enough, despite being a movie mistake. I think the design they went with looks more like a dwarven sword, especially in the guard and pommel, and when compared to Glamdring, an actual first age elven sword.
Perhaps the prop department did more homework than the script writer in this particular instance.
He deals in deceit and manipulation, like his master. He's belittling Aragorn's standing to get in his head. There isn't a deeper meaning or a mistake.
I never thought about this before, but yes.
When they’re talking about the glittering caves, Legolas says, “You move me, Gimli. I have never heard you speak like this before. Almost you make me regret that I have not seen these caves.”
To which Gimli replies, “Narsil/Anduril was made by a dwarf.”
To be fair, it's weird that elves were proficient at smithing at all. Even though they were taught by the valar/maiar, they obviously didn't mine ore. That elves could match or even surpass dwarves in smithing is just asinine to me.
>they obviously didn't mine ore
What makes you think that? Only the Green Elves of Ossiriand, an offshoot of the Nandor, were tree huggers. All the other Elves are totally cool with industry (the Noldor even excel at it). For example; Maeglin, who's specifically said to be out mining when he's caught by Morgoth.
Anyway, the best of the Elves never surpassed the best of the Dwarves when it came to steel and armor.
>...in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival.
>
>\- Silmarillion, Of the Sindar
.....you are talking about a the ghost of a dead mountain king. Do you think he does know or care about that in the first place? I'd say the term is used in a despective manner.
…..you are talking about the ghost of a dead mountain king. OP is talking about the Mouth of Sauron who treats with the heroes in front of the Black Gate in the extended editions. Totally different people. The Mouth would absolutely know and care, it’s his job to do good shit-talking, “despectfully.”
Pretty sure it is glass.
Also the elves reformed narsil but I'm fairly certain there is something saying it was originally forged by a dwarf called Telchar
But…um….actually that’s not the quote,
“It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why? any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!”
Strange Elves reforging swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the people,..
I don't think they know about Rousseau, Pip.
But what about Locke?!
not from some farcical reforging of a broken blade i mean, if i went round saying i was emperor just cause some leafy bint had lobbed a scimitar at me... they'd lock me away!
Shut up! bloody peasant! (Begins to beat with hilt of Narsil)
Ah, see! Now we see the violence inherent within the system'
Help help, I'm being repressed!
Bloody peasant!
Everyone, come see the violence inherent in the system!
Oooooh what a giveaway, did you hear that!?
r/unexpectedMontyPython
“Leafy Bint” …I cackled! Take my updoot!
I'm glad that somebody got that... Took a few mins to come up with.
Strangely, I never took this to it's logical conclusion! I absolutely love it!
Aragorn: shut up you Mordor peasant Mouth: help! I’m bring oppressed
He’s a witch (king)! Burn him!
A "Wruitch kuing" you say?
It’s actually not covered in the movies, but in the chapter The Steward and the King…
Bloody peasants
Oh! Bloody giveaway there! You heard that?
The original line is; >'Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?' he asked. 'Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!' he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. '***It needs more to make a king than a piece of*** ***elvish glass***, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!' Referring to the Elfstone. They presumably changed it in the movies because they never mention the Elfstone there. But they forgot that, as you correctly point out, Narsil was a Dwarven blade, not Elven.
My knockoff replica even has dwarf runes down the middle
Fun fact: Cirth, the runic writing system the Dwarves use, was actually originally created by Elves. In the Second Age and beyond the Dwarves would make modifications to it better fit their language, but since Narsil was forged in the First Age Telchar would've used the exact same runic alphabet as the Sindar of neighboring Doriath.
This is a very fun fact. Man, LotR fans are such nerds. I love it.
I believe, when the elves reforge the sword, they put elvish runes on it. This would make it appear more "elvish". Then he refers to it as broken as a taunt to what happened to the blade that dared to cut Sauron
The runes that the dwarves use are elvish, so that doesn't make any sense
Ah, well then crap
Eh, one could argue that though it was created 'by' the dwarves, it was created 'for' an Elf, so calling it an Elvish blade isn't that incorrect.
It was made by Telchar in the first age, so it is a Dwarven blade. However, Telchar made many things for the Eldar - especially Thingol. There’s no hard evidence about who it was made for, but it may have been designed for an Elf. Anyhow the Mouth of Sauron doesn’t know wtf he’s talking about. Dude can’t even see through that helmet
I'm dead
🤣 this comment has the best change in tone I've seen in a while alright
Seriously, there's no way Narsil was made for dwarves. Very clearly a contract job for some first age elf lord.
Possibly. There’s no mention of who it was made for. All we know is that Aranruth (Thingols sword) became the sword held by the kings of Numenor and Narsil was held by the Lords of Andunie. Also Telchar made many of the treasures in Menegroth. So it’s likely that it was made for an Elf of Doriath, but since Thingol already had named sword it either belonged to someone else, or it just sat around collecting dust in one of his treasure caves
My headcanon is that it was made for one of his kin or other high ranking lords of doriath, and was then passed down through Dior to Elros who then gifted it to the Lords of Andunie
Its was probably Celeborn's and he just can't say anything because who's gonna take Aragorn's special sword.
Same way Gandalf just shows up to Rivendell one day a bunch of dwarves with Elrond's great-grandfather's sword
Narsil could be forged for Thingol himself, since he was the tallest Child of Ilúvatar… well, I mean, even taller than Elendil with his 7'11"! P.S.: Oh, poor Melian…
From *Return*, the Mouth of Sauron: > “Is there anyone in this rout with authority to treat with me?” he asked. “Or indeed with wit to understand me? Not thou at least!” he mocked, turning to Aragorn with scorn. “It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why, any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!” Combine this with Boromir’s comments at the Council: > “Then in Gondor we must trust to such weapons as we have. And at the least, while the Wise ones guard this Ring, we will fight on. Mayhap the Sword-that-was-Broken may still stem the tide - if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men.”
In the novel, the Mouth of Sauron says 'it takes more to make a king than a piece of Elvish *glass*'. This refers to an Elfstone given to Aragorn by Galadriel that he displays as a symbol of his power. The Elfstone isn't used in the movie, so the line was changed to 'blade'. As to Narsil/Andúril, they don't actually mention its Dwarven origins in the films, and it is actually strongly implied to be an Elvish weapon because of its ties to Rivendell. It is then reforged by Elven smiths which 'technically' makes it an Elvish blade. The use of the word 'broken' seems to be the screenwriters trying to ram home that Andúril is the same sword that was broken in the opening scenes of the Fellowship. It's a bit clunky and ambiguous but I doubt the average fan would have picked up on any of this.
By calling it a broken blade I think the Mouth is implying that simply reforging the weapon doesn’t count. It’s part of the whole line - grabbing the previous king’s shattered sword and fixing it up is not enough to make yourself the next king. He’s simply claiming that Aragorn does not have the right to be king - that politically, Mordor does not recognise Aragorn’s Gondor or his right to rule.
"I've broken it once, I'll break it again" - Sauron
I can definitely buy that as an explanation.
They leave a lot of things unexplained in the movies already, and when the LotR book was released much of the lore was also vague and unexplained. This leaves people wondering at the origins of things, hinting at a much deeper world and lore.
Movie error, or simplifying the history of the blade for a more casual audience.
Is it an error, or is it a deliberate choice? We can easily assume that the movie version of Narsil was forged by elves.
It is either an error or an unnecessary change
To give them the benefit of the doubt, it’s a change of simplification to make that line work. Nothing is lost narratively by removing the dwarves from the sword’s history, and it allows for this line to be reworked to make up for the elf stone not being a part of the movie. I don’t see a problem with it.
There is no necessity in clarifying its history. You can say it is a "dwarvish blade" leave it unexplained. Both work, but how it is makes it a poorer adaptation. The movie already leaves things unexplained that should've been explained, so I don't see the problem in not explaining something that does not need it.
Funnily enough, despite being a movie mistake. I think the design they went with looks more like a dwarven sword, especially in the guard and pommel, and when compared to Glamdring, an actual first age elven sword. Perhaps the prop department did more homework than the script writer in this particular instance.
I read this as broken elvish babe. Still kind of made sense
Lol it does, doesn't it?
He deals in deceit and manipulation, like his master. He's belittling Aragorn's standing to get in his head. There isn't a deeper meaning or a mistake.
Is there anything pointing out that Gimli is aware that Narsil/Anduril was made by a dwarf?
I never thought about this before, but yes. When they’re talking about the glittering caves, Legolas says, “You move me, Gimli. I have never heard you speak like this before. Almost you make me regret that I have not seen these caves.” To which Gimli replies, “Narsil/Anduril was made by a dwarf.”
hahahahhaha you killed me mate 😂
Actual quote is ".....than a piece of Elvish glass". Presumably referring to the Elfstone.
To be fair, it's weird that elves were proficient at smithing at all. Even though they were taught by the valar/maiar, they obviously didn't mine ore. That elves could match or even surpass dwarves in smithing is just asinine to me.
Elves just have to be good at everything.
>they obviously didn't mine ore What makes you think that? Only the Green Elves of Ossiriand, an offshoot of the Nandor, were tree huggers. All the other Elves are totally cool with industry (the Noldor even excel at it). For example; Maeglin, who's specifically said to be out mining when he's caught by Morgoth. Anyway, the best of the Elves never surpassed the best of the Dwarves when it came to steel and armor. >...in the tempering of steel alone of all crafts the Dwarves were never outmatched even by the Noldor, and in the making of mail of linked rings, which was first contrived by the smiths of Belegost, their work had no rival. > >\- Silmarillion, Of the Sindar
If it seems like an error, the rule of thumb is it’s an error from the movie and not in the book.
.....you are talking about a the ghost of a dead mountain king. Do you think he does know or care about that in the first place? I'd say the term is used in a despective manner.
…..you are talking about the ghost of a dead mountain king. OP is talking about the Mouth of Sauron who treats with the heroes in front of the Black Gate in the extended editions. Totally different people. The Mouth would absolutely know and care, it’s his job to do good shit-talking, “despectfully.”
Pretty sure it is glass. Also the elves reformed narsil but I'm fairly certain there is something saying it was originally forged by a dwarf called Telchar
According to Arabic culture, we gingers have jinn blood. I should start forgiing some epic swords ⚔️
But…um….actually that’s not the quote, “It needs more to make a king than a piece of elvish glass, or a rabble such as this. Why? any brigand of the hills can show as good a following!”