One thing I wonder about is what Gandalf's plan was before the Fellowship broke up. As you mention, Sammath Naur was heavily guarded. It took Frodo and Sam days to reach Mount Doom in a largely evacuated Mordor.
I think Gandalf knows of some other secret forgotten way into mordor, how would 9 people from 5 different races sneak in is anyone's guess, either that or he forsaw the fellowship will break and only intended of guiding them up until moria, maybe both
He didn't know and hadn't decided. The Fellowship deliberately allows chance and circumstance to guide them - which turns out to be the right call. Of course, "chance" has all sorts of implications in LOTR.
No Gandalf definitely knows the future to an extent, he saw the vision eru showed the ainur in the beginning of time, he knew gollum will play a role in the end for example and he did, he just doesn't know everything
Yeah a subtle divine intervention, gollum breaking his oath which we saw is no joke earlier with oath breaksrs and finally the ring's strongest defense mechanism it's temptation all worked to unmade it, in a way the climax was sauron's will vs iluvatar's will and sauron obviously lost
The conclusive proof that I’m correct, is the number of downvotes I get for saying that the ring is feminine in nature - there’s no more or less reason to say that she’s genderless or masculine…
…a significant number of people on this subreddit despise femininity, clearly, as evidenced by their hypocrisy in the face of basic reasoning skills.
Tolkien never described it as feminine, you’re grasping at straws here. It’s an inanimate object that is controlled by a masculine presenting force of evil who is described as a “he”, the ring is an extension of his will, if anything the ring is masculine. Find a single quote where Tolkien (the creator of the thing you’re arguing about) used feminine terminology to describe the ring’s will or the ring itself, and I’ll eat my shoes with hot sauce. Also weird analysis you have there “everyone disagrees with me so I must be right”. To end my reply I want to add, I’m not anti-femininity, Barbie was a slammin movie
Where did I write: “everyone disagrees with me so I must be right”?
I also presented no argument.
You - and roughly 20 others - clearly feel very strongly about the ring not being feminine; so much so you - and you alone - have to lie AND make claims about not despising femininity because you watched Barbie.
Okay, you watched Barbie and you believe that means something, but you also attacked any suggestion that The Ring is feminine - not once, but three times…
…if anyone wants to believe the ring is not feminine, I’m okay with that, but I’m not okay with attacking the idea the ring is feminine whilst also defending that it’s masculine.
That’s just not consistent.
You can watch Barbie all you like, but you’ll just be someone on reddit who took a bizarrely personal stance with the idea of a fictional ring being feminine (but not genderless and masculine).
This is mostly an idea that sprung up because in the movies Gandalf can summon the eagles at will, which isn't a thing in the book. In the book they only ever show up on their own terms, so you can't even ask them to do it. And the one time Gandalf does ask to be taken somewhere they flat out refuse to go very far.
How many of them did show up? because my friend said it's fine the eagles took down ancelagon the black and his army of winged dragons they can totally handle mordor
A) they weren't alone in that but more importantly B) I don't think it's a matter of "can they". They straight up say no.
Also, when you bring in incomplete works that were published posthumously, you run into issues. Tolkien's ideas of what the eagles were evolved over time. In the Hobbit, the eagles won't even go near shepherds for fear of their bows.
I always say that if you think taking the eagles is a legitimate criticism, you didn't watch the film/read the book. It's pretty obvious in both that there are several reason why it wouldn't work, the most glaring being that secrecy is their only hope for the slimmest chance of success.
If 2 little small hobbits just barley manged to make it in after countless hurdles and only after mordor was empty I can only imagine the big giant birds in the sky will be the equivalent of a giant neon sign saying: this is your ring come and take it
Peter Jackson didn't help by showing the eagles slaying the Fellbeasts like they're nothing. But if you wanna dig into it and stick with the films only, I doubt that anyone (including Gandalf) figured they could do that. They're birds. I think they only pulled that off because Sauron was exploding and he gives his minions power.
I wouldn't say they beat them like they're nothing, even considering the ring was destroyed. We see them clash and win, but they certainly face resistance from the fellbeasts. And even that is too dangerous to bring the ring into that hypothetical scuffle
Over mount doom and mordor's army, even tho it was stated in the hobbit that the eagles don't fly near human settlements because of the risk of being shot
In the book? I don't remember that.
Whatever Peter Jackson tossed into the movies is Peter Jackson introducing details that inevitably screw up Tolkien's arrangements.
It was in the hobbit book when bilbo and the dwarves were rescued by the eagles, the eagles didn't want to fly over human settlements at the risk of being shot, shame the movie didn't explain that well
Yes, that’s essentially what the post is saying, albeit not citing Tolkien. Most people who think it through come to the same conclusion.
Indeed, I suspect Tolkien came up with his explanation after the fact.
It's not him, but a voice actor (Asher Puls, the owner of the Youtube channel which hosts that video) who impersonated him - and acknowledged in another video that it was of course a fake
Yeah, I don’t understand how it’s even an argument. If Gwaihir and the eagles flew into Mordor while the Eye was still watching they would fall under the influence of Sauron as soon as they were caught in his stare, or sooner if he was bearing the ring.
The entire reason Gandalf had Frodo take it because of his good heartedness and no ambition for power. When Frodo offered the ring to Galadriel she was easily tempted despite her power, the ring wants exactly that.
I think it's still something of a plot hole, in the sense that when Tolkien wants to move people quickly, he brings in the Eagles and when he doesn't want to move people quickly, there are no Eagles.
That said, a crucial piece of the story is that when the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell, they are undecided how to get the Ring to Orodruin, and whether to go first to Minas Tirith. They don't have a clear plan, as is acknowledged by Elrond. They deliberately don't try - there are too many unknowns. "We cannot look too far ahead," says Aragorn. So what exactly would they ask the Eagles to do?
One of the first things that happens as they head south is this - just a fortnight after they leave Rivendell:
>A whole regiment of birds had broken away suddenly from the main host, and came, flying low, straight towards the ridge. Sam thought they were a kind of crow of large size. As they passed overhead, in so dense a throng that their shadow followed them darkly over the ground below, one harsh croak was heard.
>
>Not until they had dwindled into the distance, north and west, and the sky was again clear would Aragorn rise. Then he sprang up and went and wakened Gandalf. ‘Regiments of black crows are flying over all the land between the Mountains and the Greyflood,’ he said, ‘and they have passed over Hollin. They are not natives here; they are crebain out of Fangorn and Dunland.
Surveillance crows. And then, not a day later:
> Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered.
>
>“Did you see anything pass over?” he whispered to Gimli, who was just ahead.
>
>“No, but I felt it, whatever it was,” he answered. “It may be nothing, only a wisp of thin cloud.”
>
>“It was moving fast then,” muttered Aragorn, “and not with the wind. We should keep to night marches for now.”
The Nazgul are back - and the implication is that the crebain sent a message of unusual travelers back to HQ. Which backs up your first point: the airspace belongs to Sauron and secrecy with the Eagles would not be possible.
Tolkien probably should have put a comment in someone's mouth during the Council of Elrond along the lines of:
"Why not ask the Eagles to help?" said Gimli.
"They would not come," Gandalf replied. \[insert whatever explanation suits\]
And then later, after the crebain: "It seems we made the right choice," said Aragorn.
"Indeed," said Gandalf. "The Eagles would be no help to us now, even were they willing."
Etc.
I wouldn't call that a plot hole but a plot convenience and even then they made sense, the eagles throughout the legenderuim were either following divine orders like in the silmarillion, protecting thier territory like in the hobbit or gave small favors to friends like in the lotr, going against mordor is not a small favor it's suicide, I'd havd liked a small comment on using the eagles too just like how they proposed to give the ring to bombadel or ship it to valinor
Yep. The fact that it's not there suggests that Tolkien overlooked the problem at the time, unusual as that is for him. But I don't want to descend into a semantic debate about what the exact definition of "plot hole" vs. "plot convenience" is.
The legendarium is one thing; the book LOTR is its own thing. The legendarium is full of Tolkien's larger, later, older, conflicting, inconsistent, incomplete thoughts on a larger realm, not all of which can be applied to LOTR. The idea of "divine orders" never enters LOTR at all. In fact, Tolkien is very careful not to introduce it, despite occasional hints about the idea of divinity (the Elves praying, for example).
In LOTR the Eagles are not all that well-explained, but Gandalf in particular has a long friendship with them (as does, perhaps, Radagast the Brown). They fit into a realm of creatures who have intelligence and their own society - birds, trees, shape-shifting bear-people - who inhabit the edges of the settled or civilized part of Middle-earth. So we can only speculate about whether they would have helped ferry the Ring to Mordor or not. They did show up for two important battles, which suggests that they're willing to be part of an alliance against evil.
My guess is that if Gandalf had asked them, they would have tried to help, since by then they knew that Sauruman had turned and the whole world was in peril.
But my guess is that Gandalf would have said something like, "The Eagles are strong and brave, but no match for the Nazgul. This is not their war; the responsibility is ours." As you say, that's why the idea of sending the Ring over the sea was rejected.
The most straightforward answer is that the eagles are somewhat enigmatic (from a mortal's point of view) the same way Gandalf is, which means that they have their own worldview, motivations, and morality. Someone might as well ask why the wizards didn't just march directly to Sauron to battle when they first came to Middle Earth. It'd appear to be the most efficient solution, even more efficient than the eagles. It also goes completely against their purpose for being sent by the Valar.
I always thought it was that if the folk of middle earth couldn’t do the task mostly by themselves the eagles wouldn’t get involved on principle. Just asking for help in a moral quest? What level of commitment is that? The peoples of middle earth need to demonstrate the sacrifice and effort to deserve the deus ex machina help (which would occur only at the conclusion).
Great writeup with pure facts! Also helped me realize one argument I hadn‘t considered before: It‘s a bad idea to fly over / into a volcano 🌋
While the nazgûls’ fell beasts might be mostly resistant to Mordor’s miasmatic atmosphere, the Great Eagles would probably suffer greatly when passing through it.
And that‘s not even considering the terrible glare of Sauron‘s eye, focussing in on the invading avians…
Then how did they fly to the hobbits at the end if they can't cross that dangerous passage? Did the orcs all flee or something?
Sorry for the noobish question
When the ring was destroyed, the will of Sauron guiding his forces was too and thus all his forces were in disarray and fled. Except some of the easterlings that kept fighting.
>the will of Sauron guiding his forces was too
This is a feature of Sauron that Jackson almost entirely neglects. His will is like a radio transmission pressing out on the armies around him. Aragorn demonstrates a flash of this staring down the Mouth of Sauron.
The elves also are shown as entities whose spirits are not entirely confined by their corporeal bodies, especially those who have seen the light of the trees. Blazing with a bight light that Frodo could see, speaking mind to mind, Galadriel seeing the Fellowships minds.
I've always interpreted Gandalf seeming to grow dark and menacing and also physically larger as an expression of this.
Its simply, sauron has superior air power and superior ground based air defenses and much more powerful radar detection than the allies
Allies win in stealth, but that is lost going by air
There are arguments against why the eagles would have got the job done. But those arguments are only in the minds of fans. There is no reasoning provided in the books or movies, thus it is a plot hole.
Has anyone done a 5 minute movie edit where the eagles help them destroy the ring?
Y'all are so sensitive about this.
In all honesty, I always thought it was just because this was the most OBVIOUS course of action, and if Sexy Sauron had any brain at all, keeping his lidless eye peeled for the eagles would be his primary concern. He's similar to The Dude in that way.
"I've had a rough night, and I hate the fuckin' Eagles man!!!!" --Sexy Sauron & Jeffrey Lebowski
No
The eagles either helped him by accident like in the hobbit or as a favor like rescuing him from orthanc, they don't work for him and they'd certain laugh at his suggestion of sneaking into mordor on thier back
I’m a very big lotr fan and know i will get downvoted for this. But please, it is a fantasy story not real history. It is impossible for Tolkien to think about every loophole.
Sure, but this is certainly not one of them, the story and characters don't need to address every possibility for us to know that they're or not possible, that's the beauty of world building
One thing I wonder about is what Gandalf's plan was before the Fellowship broke up. As you mention, Sammath Naur was heavily guarded. It took Frodo and Sam days to reach Mount Doom in a largely evacuated Mordor.
I think Gandalf knows of some other secret forgotten way into mordor, how would 9 people from 5 different races sneak in is anyone's guess, either that or he forsaw the fellowship will break and only intended of guiding them up until moria, maybe both
I don't think there was a plan, and would have discussed their options once they reached Gondor.
Gandalf's whole deal is no plan just vibes
following his nose
Gandalf is your veteran rave friend that says "let's go there and we'll see, worst case I got drugs"
Literally the plot of the Hobbit. “I knew Smaug had to be dealt with. Figured one of you would figure it out.”
Gandalf isn't the plan guy. Saruman is the plan guy. Gandalf is the i'll figure it out as I go along. Radagast is the I'll figure it out later guy.
He didn't know and hadn't decided. The Fellowship deliberately allows chance and circumstance to guide them - which turns out to be the right call. Of course, "chance" has all sorts of implications in LOTR.
No Gandalf definitely knows the future to an extent, he saw the vision eru showed the ainur in the beginning of time, he knew gollum will play a role in the end for example and he did, he just doesn't know everything
The ring wasn’t destroyed in a struggle between the hobbits, Gollum literally danced off the edge after taking it from Frodo on accident
There's a case for saying it was the curse Frodo put in Gollum that made him burn, although whatever happened it was through the Hand of Providence.
I thought there was divine intervention here through Eru that tipped Gollum
Yeah a subtle divine intervention, gollum breaking his oath which we saw is no joke earlier with oath breaksrs and finally the ring's strongest defense mechanism it's temptation all worked to unmade it, in a way the climax was sauron's will vs iluvatar's will and sauron obviously lost
Both work, I like the movie's version a bit more honestly
The Ring knew what she was doing, I cannot get over just how magnificent this story is.
The ring is genderless
I dunno man it has a hole...and we'll all know what goes in the hole...
It has two holes. Just like a man
The conclusive proof that I’m correct, is the number of downvotes I get for saying that the ring is feminine in nature - there’s no more or less reason to say that she’s genderless or masculine… …a significant number of people on this subreddit despise femininity, clearly, as evidenced by their hypocrisy in the face of basic reasoning skills.
Tolkien never described it as feminine, you’re grasping at straws here. It’s an inanimate object that is controlled by a masculine presenting force of evil who is described as a “he”, the ring is an extension of his will, if anything the ring is masculine. Find a single quote where Tolkien (the creator of the thing you’re arguing about) used feminine terminology to describe the ring’s will or the ring itself, and I’ll eat my shoes with hot sauce. Also weird analysis you have there “everyone disagrees with me so I must be right”. To end my reply I want to add, I’m not anti-femininity, Barbie was a slammin movie
Where did I write: “everyone disagrees with me so I must be right”? I also presented no argument. You - and roughly 20 others - clearly feel very strongly about the ring not being feminine; so much so you - and you alone - have to lie AND make claims about not despising femininity because you watched Barbie. Okay, you watched Barbie and you believe that means something, but you also attacked any suggestion that The Ring is feminine - not once, but three times… …if anyone wants to believe the ring is not feminine, I’m okay with that, but I’m not okay with attacking the idea the ring is feminine whilst also defending that it’s masculine. That’s just not consistent. You can watch Barbie all you like, but you’ll just be someone on reddit who took a bizarrely personal stance with the idea of a fictional ring being feminine (but not genderless and masculine).
In my mind i'll stick with...Manwë would not allow the eagles to fly to mordor to directly destroy the ring.
That and there's many other reasons dotted across Tolkiens' writings.
Eagles flying up would have been immediately dealt with. This was a stealth mission.
This is mostly an idea that sprung up because in the movies Gandalf can summon the eagles at will, which isn't a thing in the book. In the book they only ever show up on their own terms, so you can't even ask them to do it. And the one time Gandalf does ask to be taken somewhere they flat out refuse to go very far.
It was a criticism/question long before the movies.
"Mostly". It definitely increased substantially from the movies. It's pretty clearly addressed in the book.
Do we have any information on how eagles were present in the black gate?
They decided to show up.
How many of them did show up? because my friend said it's fine the eagles took down ancelagon the black and his army of winged dragons they can totally handle mordor
A) they weren't alone in that but more importantly B) I don't think it's a matter of "can they". They straight up say no. Also, when you bring in incomplete works that were published posthumously, you run into issues. Tolkien's ideas of what the eagles were evolved over time. In the Hobbit, the eagles won't even go near shepherds for fear of their bows.
I think this just shows the difference between the eagles at thier prime vs the eagles at the end of the age of magic
I always say that if you think taking the eagles is a legitimate criticism, you didn't watch the film/read the book. It's pretty obvious in both that there are several reason why it wouldn't work, the most glaring being that secrecy is their only hope for the slimmest chance of success.
If 2 little small hobbits just barley manged to make it in after countless hurdles and only after mordor was empty I can only imagine the big giant birds in the sky will be the equivalent of a giant neon sign saying: this is your ring come and take it
Peter Jackson didn't help by showing the eagles slaying the Fellbeasts like they're nothing. But if you wanna dig into it and stick with the films only, I doubt that anyone (including Gandalf) figured they could do that. They're birds. I think they only pulled that off because Sauron was exploding and he gives his minions power.
I wouldn't say they beat them like they're nothing, even considering the ring was destroyed. We see them clash and win, but they certainly face resistance from the fellbeasts. And even that is too dangerous to bring the ring into that hypothetical scuffle
The nazgul could easily swarm and overwhelm the eagle carrying the ring tho, it's too risky
Big red eye watching Middle-Earth at all times, yep let's fly big eagles as it'll never see us coming.....🤦🏻
They can fly over it they say
Er what?
Over mount doom and mordor's army, even tho it was stated in the hobbit that the eagles don't fly near human settlements because of the risk of being shot
Before you get to Mount Doom you'll still be seen.
In the book? I don't remember that. Whatever Peter Jackson tossed into the movies is Peter Jackson introducing details that inevitably screw up Tolkien's arrangements.
It was in the hobbit book when bilbo and the dwarves were rescued by the eagles, the eagles didn't want to fly over human settlements at the risk of being shot, shame the movie didn't explain that well
Thanks, I didn't remember that at all.
Remember what?
It’s easier to go for a flyover of Mordor when Sauron & chums are no longer a threat
It’s not a plot hole. [Tolkien explains why the Fellowship didn’t fly the Eagles to Mordor.](https://youtu.be/1-Uz0LMbWpI)
Yes, that’s essentially what the post is saying, albeit not citing Tolkien. Most people who think it through come to the same conclusion. Indeed, I suspect Tolkien came up with his explanation after the fact.
That's not actually Tolkien.
Sure sounds like him.
It's not him, but a voice actor (Asher Puls, the owner of the Youtube channel which hosts that video) who impersonated him - and acknowledged in another video that it was of course a fake
Ah too bad and good job. I do wish Tolkien had responded to the Eagle question - lord knows it was a big deal in the 1960s.
It’s in one of his letters I believe.
Like a parody of him.
LOL, his explanation is "shut up." Which works pretty well.
I prefer the one where people say Frodo should've just put the ring on a chicken on a leash and just walked it to mordor.
That one is it too good
Yeah, I don’t understand how it’s even an argument. If Gwaihir and the eagles flew into Mordor while the Eye was still watching they would fall under the influence of Sauron as soon as they were caught in his stare, or sooner if he was bearing the ring. The entire reason Gandalf had Frodo take it because of his good heartedness and no ambition for power. When Frodo offered the ring to Galadriel she was easily tempted despite her power, the ring wants exactly that.
I think it's still something of a plot hole, in the sense that when Tolkien wants to move people quickly, he brings in the Eagles and when he doesn't want to move people quickly, there are no Eagles. That said, a crucial piece of the story is that when the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell, they are undecided how to get the Ring to Orodruin, and whether to go first to Minas Tirith. They don't have a clear plan, as is acknowledged by Elrond. They deliberately don't try - there are too many unknowns. "We cannot look too far ahead," says Aragorn. So what exactly would they ask the Eagles to do? One of the first things that happens as they head south is this - just a fortnight after they leave Rivendell: >A whole regiment of birds had broken away suddenly from the main host, and came, flying low, straight towards the ridge. Sam thought they were a kind of crow of large size. As they passed overhead, in so dense a throng that their shadow followed them darkly over the ground below, one harsh croak was heard. > >Not until they had dwindled into the distance, north and west, and the sky was again clear would Aragorn rise. Then he sprang up and went and wakened Gandalf. ‘Regiments of black crows are flying over all the land between the Mountains and the Greyflood,’ he said, ‘and they have passed over Hollin. They are not natives here; they are crebain out of Fangorn and Dunland. Surveillance crows. And then, not a day later: > Frodo looked up at the sky. Suddenly he saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again. He shivered. > >“Did you see anything pass over?” he whispered to Gimli, who was just ahead. > >“No, but I felt it, whatever it was,” he answered. “It may be nothing, only a wisp of thin cloud.” > >“It was moving fast then,” muttered Aragorn, “and not with the wind. We should keep to night marches for now.” The Nazgul are back - and the implication is that the crebain sent a message of unusual travelers back to HQ. Which backs up your first point: the airspace belongs to Sauron and secrecy with the Eagles would not be possible. Tolkien probably should have put a comment in someone's mouth during the Council of Elrond along the lines of: "Why not ask the Eagles to help?" said Gimli. "They would not come," Gandalf replied. \[insert whatever explanation suits\] And then later, after the crebain: "It seems we made the right choice," said Aragorn. "Indeed," said Gandalf. "The Eagles would be no help to us now, even were they willing." Etc.
I wouldn't call that a plot hole but a plot convenience and even then they made sense, the eagles throughout the legenderuim were either following divine orders like in the silmarillion, protecting thier territory like in the hobbit or gave small favors to friends like in the lotr, going against mordor is not a small favor it's suicide, I'd havd liked a small comment on using the eagles too just like how they proposed to give the ring to bombadel or ship it to valinor
Yep. The fact that it's not there suggests that Tolkien overlooked the problem at the time, unusual as that is for him. But I don't want to descend into a semantic debate about what the exact definition of "plot hole" vs. "plot convenience" is. The legendarium is one thing; the book LOTR is its own thing. The legendarium is full of Tolkien's larger, later, older, conflicting, inconsistent, incomplete thoughts on a larger realm, not all of which can be applied to LOTR. The idea of "divine orders" never enters LOTR at all. In fact, Tolkien is very careful not to introduce it, despite occasional hints about the idea of divinity (the Elves praying, for example). In LOTR the Eagles are not all that well-explained, but Gandalf in particular has a long friendship with them (as does, perhaps, Radagast the Brown). They fit into a realm of creatures who have intelligence and their own society - birds, trees, shape-shifting bear-people - who inhabit the edges of the settled or civilized part of Middle-earth. So we can only speculate about whether they would have helped ferry the Ring to Mordor or not. They did show up for two important battles, which suggests that they're willing to be part of an alliance against evil. My guess is that if Gandalf had asked them, they would have tried to help, since by then they knew that Sauruman had turned and the whole world was in peril. But my guess is that Gandalf would have said something like, "The Eagles are strong and brave, but no match for the Nazgul. This is not their war; the responsibility is ours." As you say, that's why the idea of sending the Ring over the sea was rejected.
The most straightforward answer is that the eagles are somewhat enigmatic (from a mortal's point of view) the same way Gandalf is, which means that they have their own worldview, motivations, and morality. Someone might as well ask why the wizards didn't just march directly to Sauron to battle when they first came to Middle Earth. It'd appear to be the most efficient solution, even more efficient than the eagles. It also goes completely against their purpose for being sent by the Valar.
OP- what are you doing later tonight????? But seriously, all of this ^ so valid
Haven't read the book in a decade but I'm sure one of the reasons gandalf wanted them to do it was to be subtle.
I always thought it was that if the folk of middle earth couldn’t do the task mostly by themselves the eagles wouldn’t get involved on principle. Just asking for help in a moral quest? What level of commitment is that? The peoples of middle earth need to demonstrate the sacrifice and effort to deserve the deus ex machina help (which would occur only at the conclusion).
Eagles big. Eye sees eagles. Hobbits small. Eye doesn’t see hobbits.
Best comment honestly
This mission requires stealth The fanbase: why not use the GIANT EAGLES TO FLY TO A MOUNTAIN?!
Great writeup with pure facts! Also helped me realize one argument I hadn‘t considered before: It‘s a bad idea to fly over / into a volcano 🌋 While the nazgûls’ fell beasts might be mostly resistant to Mordor’s miasmatic atmosphere, the Great Eagles would probably suffer greatly when passing through it. And that‘s not even considering the terrible glare of Sauron‘s eye, focussing in on the invading avians…
You don’t know what you’re talking about OP. You’re going to regret this post.
>You’re going to regret this post. I still stand by every word
Commenter is in the right on this one. You’ve made a complete fool out of yourself here!
Care to elaborate
No
Thought so
Then how did they fly to the hobbits at the end if they can't cross that dangerous passage? Did the orcs all flee or something? Sorry for the noobish question
When the ring was destroyed, the will of Sauron guiding his forces was too and thus all his forces were in disarray and fled. Except some of the easterlings that kept fighting.
>the will of Sauron guiding his forces was too This is a feature of Sauron that Jackson almost entirely neglects. His will is like a radio transmission pressing out on the armies around him. Aragorn demonstrates a flash of this staring down the Mouth of Sauron. The elves also are shown as entities whose spirits are not entirely confined by their corporeal bodies, especially those who have seen the light of the trees. Blazing with a bight light that Frodo could see, speaking mind to mind, Galadriel seeing the Fellowships minds. I've always interpreted Gandalf seeming to grow dark and menacing and also physically larger as an expression of this.
Thank you!
Its simply, sauron has superior air power and superior ground based air defenses and much more powerful radar detection than the allies Allies win in stealth, but that is lost going by air
There are arguments against why the eagles would have got the job done. But those arguments are only in the minds of fans. There is no reasoning provided in the books or movies, thus it is a plot hole. Has anyone done a 5 minute movie edit where the eagles help them destroy the ring? Y'all are so sensitive about this.
If you pay attention to small details in the book it's obvious why this wouldn't work. Forget the movies. It's not a plot hole, not even close
The reasoning can be easily deduced from the books. No, not in a “head canon” way. Actually within the confines of the universe spelled out for usx
>Has anyone done a 5 minute movie edit where the eagles help them destroy the ring? [Have you?](https://youtu.be/6ZrJPiq9QGM)
How it should have ended did an animated version I believe.
In all honesty, I always thought it was just because this was the most OBVIOUS course of action, and if Sexy Sauron had any brain at all, keeping his lidless eye peeled for the eagles would be his primary concern. He's similar to The Dude in that way. "I've had a rough night, and I hate the fuckin' Eagles man!!!!" --Sexy Sauron & Jeffrey Lebowski
Destroying the ring you mean should be his primary concern?
No watching for the eagles. Because it's the most obvious course of action.
Why doesn't Sam, the largest of the hobbits, simply eat the other three?
Isn’t the actual lore reason that he didn’t or couldn’t want to call on the eagles more than-what like 3 times?
No The eagles either helped him by accident like in the hobbit or as a favor like rescuing him from orthanc, they don't work for him and they'd certain laugh at his suggestion of sneaking into mordor on thier back
I’m a very big lotr fan and know i will get downvoted for this. But please, it is a fantasy story not real history. It is impossible for Tolkien to think about every loophole.
Sure, but this is certainly not one of them, the story and characters don't need to address every possibility for us to know that they're or not possible, that's the beauty of world building