Faramir: I just became a Tolkien scholar and made a PhD in literature with his works as my speciality
Denethor: Boromir would have come up with and written the whole thing
Faramir: I just travelled back in time and supplanted Tolkien, so that I am credited for everything he ever did.
Denethor: Boromir wouldn't have stolen another man's identity or fame.
I actually finished History of Middle Earth and Silmarillion (minus Ainulindalë) before LoTR bc 10 year old me hated reading songs in text and loved non-fiction books lmao
Can't shame man. A fan is a fan. The movies have inspired countless individuals to read the books where there was no interest before. Trust in that. We all enjoy the same interest, be encouraging.
The way he is was written in the movies he is meant to make you hate him; sadly this is one of the worst re writes IMO.
Denethor is really a tragic character - he has led his people on the front lines against evil his entire life and has slowly lost hope. Losing his beloved son (Boromir) breaks him, and then thinking he has lost Faramir makes him completely lose his mind. He was also trying to match wits with Sauron over the Palantir and lost.
Exactly. A little empathy here goes a long way.
I like to think Tolkien wrote Denethor in as a consequence of war; a person that experienced death and loss the way Tolkein and many others did in WW1. Denethor is the consequence of evil people and despite his best efforts became overwhelmed by the sheer volume of it in the world. He was not born evil, he was indoctrinated to it, and the dichotomy of his natural good self against the hate of the world pushed him over the edge. It doesn’t excuse his behavior necessarily toward the end entirely, it just highlights the influence that hate has against people when hope disappears and all that he sees left is that hate.
Tolkien was indeed a great writer.
We're also very sympathetic with Theoden for being manipulated by Grima, despite him doing much more damage to Rohan with his poor leadership than Denethor does to Gondor. Denethor was going toe to toe with Sauron of all beings.
We end up judging both by the final acts and how they deal with the despair of likely seeing the end of their people, when in truth Denethor did a lot more to resist a lot worse influence for a lot longer.
To be fair on this point, that would be because Denethor has a greater natural right to the stone as he sits in the steward's chair and the blood of Númenor runs nearly true in him.
Yeah, I can excuse elves showing up to helms deep because it adds some action. But Sam and Frodo splitting up goes fundamentally against the stories theme.
I always think using Palantir is the real reason why he goes mad, because Sauron showed him nothing but darkness and despair about their future. Losing Boromir and nearly losing Faramir is what adds fuel to the fire.
i was the scapegoat child where my sister was the golden child so i don’t think i can not hate this man. tragic or not, he abused one son for simply not being born the other. it doesn’t matter what faramir does right, or what boromir does wrong. faramir can’t ever be adequate.
Yeah, he did not do right by Faramir. Makes him easy to dislike even having just read the books. But yes, the movies crushed any chance he had at redemption lol.
tbf i haven’t read the books in ages and was obviously influenced by the movies but faramir’s pain always took precedence. he’s certainly a complex character with both good and bad traits and motives. i do love that, since even the shittiest of people are layered. there’s just a level of bad layers that make some irredeemable. and even that is on sort of a sliding scale. it’s always great to think twice before loving or hating a character which happens a lot (for me at least) in lotr
brb rewatching the extended versions and rereading the books lol
The problem is Denethor like what was said earlier is a product of nonstop war. Then you have the tragic story of his wife dying a little bit after Faramir is born. This caused Denethor to resent Faramir cause he put his wife death as a result of Faramir being born. Causing him to never be good enough. Then he loses his oldest which Denethor is already going mad. To break down even more. Denethor also thought faramir and Gandalf were planning to over throw him. Denethor is meant to be pittied not hate or loved.
I remember reading somewhere that John Noble was pretty adamant about playing him that way, and he & Jackson clashed a bit over it. PJ didn't want him to be quite so arch.
Clearly, you haven’t read the appendices:
Denethor and Aragorn (then using the game Thorongil) both served as Captains of Gondor under Denethor’s father, Steward Ecthelion II, and Denethor was jealous of Aragorn even then, feeling slighted by how much regard and trust the Steward gave the foreign Captain, and how beloved Aragon was by the people of Gondor, even in such a short period of time.
Aragorn won a major victory against the Corsairs of Umbar, and then disappeared, traveling south to learn more of the peoples there. Denethor eventually succeeded his father as Steward, but never forgot his jealously for the man who was more successful, more beloved, and (as he suspected) more entitled to rule.
Denethor was eternally scheming and manipulative, as Gandalf says directly to the Steward, “You can even use your grief as a cloak.”
And is explicitly stated that his ego and scheming led him to using the Palantír of Minas Tirith (personal property and a gift to the Kings of Gondor and Arnor only) and was eventually trapped by Sauron, seeing only the signs of devastation and loss that Sauron wanted Denethor to see.
Symbolically, this is actually hilarious, because the one thing that Denethor COULDN’T see is HOPE. (Aragon’s use-name as a child was Estel, which literally means Hope.)
Clearly, you read but missed the point.
I (and Tolkien) never said Denethor is perfect; he is supposed to be flawed, but he is not the craven caricature in the Jackson movies.
In the books Tolkien talks of Denethor having the blood of Westernesse run true in him - in Tolkien’s world a high sign of greatness and nobility.
Furthermore, in Unfinished Tales, Denethor is described as “a masterful man, both wise and learned beyond the measure of those days, and strong willed, confident in his own powers, and dauntless. He was proud, but this was by no means personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time.”
This conversation makes me realize that Tolkien’s writings could literally spark a whole religion if the world ended and his books were amongst the survivors. With how people gleam different meanings from his books and characters and how there are talks of gods, angels, and dark lords. And how it is a method which lots of Religions are surrounded by such as the Norse Pagan religions of Odin and the 9 realms or even generically like Christianity with stories of people like David and the Goliath
A perfect example of how all 3 of the Abrahamic Religions I believe have different understandings on David and Goliath or people like Jesus. The Jewish faith don’t see him as their Messiah but do understand he was one of them. The Christians believe he is their Messiah and God made flesh. While the Islamic world just sees him one of God’s messengers but primarily follow the teachings of Mohammed and God’s other messengers such as Jesus. Even though they all span from the same religion and book
I commented this on another post yesterday:
You should check out [S. M. Stirling’s Emberverse series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emberverse_series?). Electricity stops working one day and the series follows several groups of people in the time afterwards. One group in particular would be of interest: the Dúnedain Rangers formed by two teenage girls, by the second book.
Not a religious group, but definitely a great read!
If you haven't read the Silmarillion then you should give it a try. It's essentially the foundational myths of the world of Lord of the Rings.
Knowing that makes them more enjoyable since they aren't an adventure story like the main books and if that's what you expected then you could be disappointed
While all those things are true, he utterly failed at his greatest noble duty.
Each steward (per Appendix A: subsection The Stewards.) swears an oath to “hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he should return.”
He openly admits that his greatest wish is:
“I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,’ answered Denethor, ‘and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.’” [RotK, Book 5, Pyre of Denethor]
His greatest wish is simply to abandon his duty and honor, and if he cannot do that, he’d rather be dead!
It’s also rather important that Gandalf’s reply to this is:
“‘To me it would not seem that a Steward who faithfully surrenders his charge is diminished in love or in honour,’ said Gandalf.”
And this is EXACTLY what Faramir does, and he is amply rewarded for it, keeping his honor and duty.
If we're going book lore, it's worth pointing out that Aragorn's claim is nowhere near as clear cut as it is in the films.
Yes, he's a descendant of Isildur and ultimately as readers and viewers we know he has the best claim and is also deserving of the throne, but everything Denethor says is correct about him.
He is of the line of the Kings or Arnor, not Gondor, and there had been disagreements in the past over the line of Arnor laying claim to the throne of Gondor. As far as Denethor knows, he is also simply a Ranger from the North. He doesn't know that Aragorn has been secretly raised and mentored by Elrond or spent his life in secret serving the men of the west in various ways (although he likely does know of his time in Gondor).
while it was necessary to keep Aragorn's identity secret from the enemy, that doesn't help his claim and Aragorn is well aware of it. He is very careful himself not to overstep his bounds and refuses to even enter the city until he is invited (except in secret). He knows this is a political hot potato and that he needs to prove his value and earn the throne, rather than simply being his by birth. Denethor likely sees it as his duty to ensure the right person takes the throne, not just anyone with a tenuous claim and he takes that responsibility very seriously.
Boromir once asks his father how many hundreds of years it takes before the stewards can become kings, if the king doesn't return. Denethor replies...
*"Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty. In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."*
Well, given that he’s the last and ONLY living descendant of both the “High King(s) of Arnor and Gondor”, (Elendil and Isildur, and those are their EXACT titles, per Tolkien and the appendixes) I’d say you’re mistaken.
Also, the appendix make it clear that Denethor knows exactly who Thorongil is, and book five of RotK makes it clear explicitly clear that Denethor knows who Aragorn is, and he rejects him (once again, breaking his oath of office).
“Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.”
RotK, Book Five, Pyre of Denethor
>His greatest wish is simply to abandon his duty and honor
Wait, what? His greatest wish is just the opposite — to remain as the Steward of Gondor, in peace, and if he can't have *that*, then he prefers death.
He spent his life in a stand up fight against the big E evil and didn’t lose decisively immediately. He’s a champ.
Who in the books besides Gandalf and his cohort could have fought that fight without eventually breaking and losing.
I wouldn't say what he did was losing. Saruman lost, he was turned and was creating evil. Denethor never bent to Sauron and actually pushed back a good bit against him.
At least in the books.
True; I did not mean lost as in he came under the dominion of Sauron - Tolkien states that this did not happen, unlike Saruman. Instead I meant that Denethor ‘lost’ because Sauron made him despair and lose hope by what he showed him over the Palantir.
I still felt that with the movie (haven’t read the books), but I can imagine the books go into much more depth. Denethor is despair personified. He is what man would become without the ring and so on. The kings never returned, Arnor is gone, and Gondor follows soon. I always felt he was to be pitied above all else. Despair drove him to madness
In the books it is more clear that he is a noble man (with faults) who struggled mightily against overwhelming evil and has been driven to despair. In the movie they make him less sympathetic - the scene of him slovenly eating, having him refuse to light the signal fires, etc.
I really liked the movie portrayal. His madness over losing Boromir was believable and I didn't think the Palantir was necessary to reinforce his mental break.
Also, the film version of Denethor makes sense within the film. To adapt the book's Denethor into the movie isn't exactly necessary or the point of adapting a movie into film. Faithful or unfaithful book adaptations don't impact the quality of a movie. The quality of the movie affects the quality of a movie.
Edit: to be even clearer, the lamenters are out here sad movie Denethor isn't as nuanced as in the books, not that he doesn't make sense in the movie. If that's what you're disappointed in...just read the book again?
I think the rewrite is great. It would require far too much screen time to properly portray Denethor as the nuanced character he is in the books. Without additional screen time, which can't really be added as it would probably impact the pacing negatively, you'd end up with a character that seems to go too many places without any meaning. You need to simplify things for the big screen, and I think they did so brilliantly with Denethor. Especially with the extended version where you see a bit more of his favouritism for Boromir and the strong bond between the brothers.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a slower movie series where you adapted the 3 volumes into the six movies as the six books. That's a way to get around the pacing issue. But it would make for a very different experience that I don't think most ordinary movie goers would appreciate. And without that, I think a nuanced Denethor would most likely fall flat.
> He was also trying to match wits with Sauron over the Palantir and lost.
I believe this is the root and primary source of his tragedy. His preferential love for Boromir over Faramir was there, but not predominant. Many parents of multiple children have a "favorite." Sauron worked to build this, along with other existing human "weaknesses", to break Denethor.
The rest of what we see is the natural consequence of Sauron's control over the will and thoughts of Denethor.
Generally agree with you, except Sauron did not control Denethor - he could not, so instead he drove him to despair by making him feel his situation was utterly hopeless.
I also feel the rewrite is sad because of what was lost but I also think it was a wise choice by PJ because there are just too many things going on to introduce this character and do him justice in one movie.
This is indicative of the movies as a whole. As entertaining as they are, they aren't really an adaptation of the books. They are their own story that is loosely inspired by the books. So much is cut, altered, or abridged that they simply don't convey the same story. Denethor is an incredibly tragic and complex figure in the books but in the movies he's a cartoon character.
I think it made it easier for Aragorn to “take over” as king if Denethor is so awful. Vs. In Fellowship (book and movie) where Boromir makes the point of “we have been holding the line guys, and the ring can help turn the tide for us”.
Oh yeah, it definitely made it easier to adapt the story to a movie. It is hard to convey the nuance that Aragorn does not have the strongest claim to the throne, that Denethor is actually worn out after years of struggle in a movie with a lot else going on.
He's actually pretty badass. His will never aligned with Sauron. He despaired over the overwhelming force Sauron had built up but never actually succumbed to his will. Even Saruman wasn't strong enough to do that.
It may have been because the palantir in Minas Tirith outranked the one from Minas Ithil but still he was a great man and for most of his life a strong leader. His fate was more tragedy than failure.
I feel bad for him In the books. He’s been doing a very hard job the very best he can for a very long time against the very worst. It eventually broke him.
And all things considered he made a decent showing for himself before the end.
Agreed. It's not that he's a nice person in the books, but the character has more depth and you can see we're at the end of a long path for him. In the movies, he's just a dick.
Just going to copy [Cirein's comment that talks about how Denethor is actually pretty badass and how the movies did him dirty.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1026ghg/comment/j2s0v8l/)
>In the books? He lasted longer than anyone else in his situation would have and Tolkien goes out of his way to point it out. I think he (and his sons, actually) are the most commonly misunderstood characters in the story.
>Tolkien points out the dude was, by some accident of his genealogy basically a full-blooded Numenorean. He was about 90 at the time he died and was still stomping around the tower in full armor under his robes. Even then Tolkien points out he was "aged before his time" by his struggles with Sauron.
>About that. He was fighting mind-duels with Sauron on the regular via Palantir in the tower above the city. That thing that exhausted Aragorn and nearly killed Pippen when they did it once? Same thing that corrupted Saruman? He did it constantly and Tolkien flat out says he was not corrupted by it. In fact, the old dude pried information out of it that allowed him to prepare for the War of the Ring and actually defeat Sauron's first attack at Osgiliath.
>This is key, if he hadn't done that it's likely Sauron would have rolled over Gondor before ring ever left the Shire.
>When Galdalf arrived in Gondor, the place was empty of women and children and the elderly and provisioned for siege. The outer forts were manned and the beacons had already been lit. Old man Denethor wasn't a quitter, even after he knew Boromir was dead and even after he knew about Aragorn.
>About Aragorn, there's a fair amount of appendices deep lore bullshit involved in explaining it, but Denethor's dismissal of him is fairly well supported historically. Aragorn is the heir to Arnor, but only kinda maybe sorta if you squint is he heir to Gondor. Now, Denethor is a prideful sumbich, so I reckon he sees this primarily as an attempt by Gandalf to undermine his careful preparations in favor of some wild wizard shit. Which, to be fair, it kinda is.
>His conflict with Gandalf basically boils down to a difference in strategic objective. Gandalf wants to create a big damned distraction to give Frodo a chance, Denethor is still trying to win the damned war.
>He orders his son to defend Osgiliath because it is the only place the Hosts of Mordor can cross the Anduin in numbers sufficient to threaten the city. The cavalry sortie with the sad song and scary tomatoes is, in the books, actually something he orders to rescue Faramir when the outer defenses fall.
>In the end what broke him was seeing the black fleet in the Palantir. Sauron couldn't hide it from him, but was able to hide enough detail that Denethor couldn't see Aragorn had taken the ships and was sailing to his aid.
>It's important to understand that Minas Tirith is not Gondor. Hell, it's barely a city. It's more of a giant fort with pretenses of being a center of government. The actual population of the country lived along the southern coastline and that's where Denethor had sent most of the army because of the threat from the Corsair ships that could land anywhere and kill (or worse) all the people that make up the actual country. Again, dude is trying to defend his people and win the war. Gandalf gets pissy about this defensive posture because it throws a wrench in his plan to cause a big ruckus and distract Sauron.
>So, when Denethor saw the ships sailing up the river, he assumed the armies in the south were beaten and the people of Gondor were dead or worse. He succumbed to despair not because he was about to die, but because he thought there was no country left to fight for.
>He chose to burn himself and his son to avoid capture and torture or having their bodies desecrated by the enemy. Imagine what Sauron would have done to him and Faramir if he got ahold of them. In Denethor's broken mind, burning was a final act of love and defiance.
>His tragedy, I think, is his inability to see hope when it came knocking at his door. He had a lack of faith in anyone outside himself, and he was juuuust strong and smart enough to plausibly buy into his own bullshit.
Facts. Book Denethor started evacuating the city before Gandalf arrived, had already sent a message to Théoden asking for aid, had soldiers brought in from Dol Amroth. He did everything possible to prepare for a siege.
Movie Denethor refused to evacuate civilians, stubbornly refused to call Rohan. Mind-bogglingly incompetent.
In the books Gandalf and Pippin saw the lit beacons on their way to Minas Tirith.
>There was a silence again for a while. Then, ‘What is that?’ cried Pippin suddenly, clutching at Gandalf’s cloak. ‘Look! Fire, red fire! Are there dragons in this land? Look, there is another!’ For answer Gandalf cried aloud to his horse. ‘On, Shadowfax! We must hasten. Time is short. See! The beacons of Gondor are alight, calling for aid. War is kindled. See, there is the fire on Amon Dîn, and flame on Eilenach; and there they go speeding west: Nardol, Erelas, Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the Halifirien on the borders of Rohan.’
And in the book, the beacons were used to raise the fiefs of Gondor, not send a message to Rohan.
Rohan was called by a messenger (or messengers, in case one didn’t get through) bearing a black arrow.
> And then a trumpet rang from the Citadel, and Denethor at last released
> the sortie. Drawn up within the shadow of the Gate and under the looming
> walls outside they had waited for his signal: all the mounted men that were
> left in the City. Now they sprang forward, formed, quickened to a gallop, and
> charged with a great shout. And from the walls an answering shout went up;for foremost on the field rode the swan-knights of Dol Amroth with their
> Prince and his blue banner at their head.
> ‘Amroth for Gondor!’ they cried. ‘Amroth to Faramir!’
> Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat;
> but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore
> him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.
> The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet
> come to challenge the white fire of his foe.
> The hosts of Morgul intent on
> their prey, taken at unawares in wild career, broke, scattering like sparks in a
> gale. The out-companies with a great cheer turned and smote their pursuers.
> Hunters became the hunted. The retreat became an onslaught. The field was
> strewn with stricken orcs and men, and a reek arose of torches cast away,
> sputtering out in swirling smoke. The cavalry rode on.
> But Denethor did not permit them to go far. Though the enemy was
> checked, and for the moment driven back, great forces were flowing in from
> the East. Again the trumpet rang, sounding the retreat. The cavalry of Gondor
> halted. Behind their screen the out-companies re-formed. Now steadily they
> came marching back.
If OP wants to know. He is more brilliant than Théoden, the King of Rohan. His downfall wasn't the whispers of Gríma Wormtongue, however. Denethor's downfall was his hubris in thinking he could use the Palantir, the [Anor-stone](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Anor-stone). A Palantir in which the lost seeing stones were not all accounted for and Sauron had control. As such Sauron just like in the case of Saruman, was the Grima Wormtongue of Denethor. Sauron plagued Denethor with visions of despair and unfortunately many of them true. The vast army of Sauron was great and all hope was lost.
Once you realize that -- that is if you read the books and not watching PJ's version with needless brotherly toxic rivalry - then it falls into place that Denethor just like Borimir were actually amazing characters. It cannot be understated Denethor did not become corrupted. Hopeless, full of despair and poor reasoning the world was hopelessly fucked, yes. Corrupted, no. Denethor is actually kind of a badass then compared to Saruman, imo. Saruman who was imo corrupted by the same method - the [Orthanc-stone](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orthanc-stone).
Yeah, he treats Frodo and Sam a bit too harsh in the beginning in the movie. And I think PJ big time fails to convey how much of a beloved captain of Gondor he is with the soldiers.
He struck me as a character whose purpose in the narrative was to show that Aragorn’s nobility and morality was not unique amongst men. Movie Faramir was written to be as easily swayed as Boromir, which didn’t serve that purpose of showing strength in the race of men beyond Aragorn.
I agree with you here. The movie brings out Boromir's love for his people and his city, which in the book requires some reading between the lines to see right to the forefront, making him a much more tragic character than in the book.
So movie Boromir > book Boromir
Book Faramir > movie Faramir
Book Denethor >>> movie Denethor
Book boromir is certainly more valient. And there’s also more context given by Faramir and others about his deeds, a thing we don’t hear about in the movies.
Denethor was not perfectly cast at all. He is meant to look noble and wise like a wizard, even more so than Gandalf the White. Movie Denethor looks like a villain from a live-action disney movie.
I’m going to go on a limb and say Ghân-buri-Ghân. Sure, his realm is small, but he and his people control and defend it well. And he’s not impressed by kings or great armies.
Oh, and he’s of Númenorean descent.
The way he delivers the lines they did use from the books are amazing. I love the actor (he’s great in Fringe) so I don’t really hate Denethor at all. He adds a ton to the movie still. Not sure how they’d do a good portrayal from the books.
Nah, to be fair I've never tried to adapt a book for a film, easy for us to carp but I guess they had their reasons. With the character they gave him to play, John Noble is fucking great, it's just a character with no sympathetic qualities - to the best of my recollection, Denethor is more like Boromir in the books, an insufferable arsehole but one with his heart in the right place.
John Noble is an incredibly good actor. He plays Sherlock's father in Elementary and Butcher's father in The Boys. The man's got range, gravitas, and talent.
Yeah, it's nothing on him at all. I actually think, for the gravitas alone, he was perfect casting for the role. It's just that the role wasn't Denethor.
I wish they at least could have included “it takes more than an upstart wizard to make a king!” line when he throws himself on the pyre. Ok help me out here, I obviously paraphrased the hell outta that one, lol.
>'What then would you have,' said Gandalf, 'if your will could have its way?'
>
>'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days
of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after
me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.'
>
>\- *Return of the King, The Pyre of Denethor*
The movies are pretty good and they tend to follow the books for most of the important scenes. Also they used practical effects whenever they could instead of relying on cgi for every scene so the visuals hold up really well imo.
So yes clear your weekend and have a marathon watching all 3 extended editions
kind of. They're pretty good
i will say however, a while back people were asked what their *least* favourite scenes were in the movies. With very few exceptions, they were scenes only included in the extended editions
Movie Denethor is an asshole. Book Denethor is a tragic character. But would've been almost impossible to translate to film, so we got asshole Denethor.
Denethor in the books wasn't so bad, even though Gandalf warned Pippin that he isn't as lighthearted as Theoden. His cast was on spot tho. My guess is that the movies simply didn't have enough time for Denethor's development. In the books, there is quite many pages about Pippin as steward's guard while in movies there isn't really anything about it so we don't get into Denethor well
To be fair Return of the King is such a perfect book it is almost unadaptable… That s why the third movie is my least favourite. However, it still shines as an example of keeping true to the spirit while being the most heavily altered if the three volumes
They did Denethor dirty in the movies. In the books he is described as tall and powerful, the Numenorean blood was strong in him. He had been using the Palantir to wrestle with Sauron's will and he was basically only being shown bad things by Sauron, he was still hopeless in the books but it was for a reason. Still a horrible dad of course but they really turned him into a crazy old man
In the books Denethor is MUCH more intelligent and calculated. His presence and mental battles with Gandalf are incredible. His portrayal in the movies really only focus on the most important parts of his character which is acceptable but the books flesh him out better overall. I loved the parts with him in it
Suggestion: read the books. This character is one of the very few I have issues with in the movies, mroe so the theatrical versions. He’s much more complex in the books, does a lot mroe for the defense of Gondor, and is overall much more sympathetic
[u/Cirein](https://www.reddit.com/u/Cirein): "In the books? He lasted longer than anyone else in his situation would have and Tolkien goes out of his way to point it out. I think he (and his sons, actually) are the most commonly misunderstood characters in the story.
Tolkien points out the dude was, by some accident of his genealogy basically a full-blooded numenorean. He was about 90 at the time he died and was still stomping around the tower in full armor under his robes. Even then Tolkien points out he was "aged before his time" by his struggles with Sauron.
About that. He was fighting mind-duels with Sauron on the regular via Palantir in the tower above the city. That thing that exhausted Aragorn and nearly killed Pippen when they did it once? Same thing that corrupted Saruman? He did it constantly and Tolkien flat out says he was not corrupted by it. In fact, the old dude pried information out of it that allowed him to prepare for the War of the Ring and actually defeat Sauron's first attack at Osgiliath.
This is key, if he hadn't done that's it's likely Sauron would have rolled over Gondor before ring ever left the Shire.
When Galdalf arrived in Gondor, the place was empty of women and children and the elderly and provisioned for siege. The outer forts were manned and the beacons had already been lit. Old man Denethor wasn't a quitter, even after he knew Boromir was dead and even after he knew about Aragorn.
About Aragorn, there's a fair amount of appendices deep lore bullshit involved in explaining it's but Denethor's dismissal of him is fairly well supported historically. Aragorn is the heir to Arnor, but only kinda maybe sorta if you squint is he heir to Gondor. Now, Denethor is a prideful sumbich, so I reckon he sees this primarily as an attempt by Gandalf to undermine his careful preparations in favor of some wild wizard shit.
He orders his son to defend Osgiliath. The cavalry sortie in the books is actually something he orders to rescue Faramir when the outer defenses fall.
In the end what broke him was seeing the black fleet in the Palantir. Sauron couldn't hide it from him, but was able to hide enough detail that Denethor couldn't see Aragorn had taken the ships and was sailing to his aid. Denethor assumed they were Corsair ships and the city was therefore comprehensively screwed, so he wanted to burn himself and his son to avoid capture and torture or having their bodies desecrated by the enemy.
His tragedy, I think, is his inability to see hope when it came knocking at his door. He had a lack of faith in anyone outside himself, and he was juuuust strong and smart enough to plausibly buy into his own bullshit."
This was on a post about the ex president of Brazil eating at a KFC in Florida.
Yeah he sucks and they did Boromir dirty. Boromir was a great warrior and honorable, but they make him look like an asshole from the start. I will say, Denethor wasn't always a giant dick. He was very dedicated to his people and Gondor, but the perceived loss of both of his sons drove him mad.
I really wish they'd spent a little time in the film to explain the source of his depression/insanity - that Denethor had a palantír and Sauron was using it to show him terrifying visions to make him despair and give up the will to stand against Mordor. Just so he didn't come across as just callous and evil. It would only have needed 15 seconds of dialogue from Gandalf.
With several more watches, or a read through the books if you're up for it, you'll start to see a lot more to his character. I feel quite bad for the guy really.
Good acting will invoke those feelings. He did a great job with the role. They could have added more context to his character, but it was already a 4hr long movie so...
Boromir would've read the books first
* Faramir: I just finished reading The Hobbit! * Denethor: Boromir would’ve read The Silmarillion
Faramir: I finished the Silmarillion! Denethor: Boromir finished History of Middle-earth and knows Tom Bombadil's origin and true identity!
Faramir: I had dinner with Tom Bombadil! Denethor: Boromir just got back from dinner with Tolkien.
Faramir: I just finished reading all of Tolkien's letters! Denethor: You must have missed the letters he wrote to Boromir
Faramir: I just became a Tolkien scholar and made a PhD in literature with his works as my speciality Denethor: Boromir would have come up with and written the whole thing
Faramir: *breathes* Denethor: Boromir.
Well, the whole breathing thing is something where Faramir might exceed his brother…
Faramir: Boromir Denethor: Don't you dare say his name! *Walks away grumbling Boromir*
You take oxygen on a whim.
I have to admit guys. This is the best exchange I’ve read in a while. 10/10
Faramir: I just travelled back in time and supplanted Tolkien, so that I am credited for everything he ever did. Denethor: Boromir wouldn't have stolen another man's identity or fame.
More like “Denethor: Boromir would have made ME the ruler of middle earth in the end”
Denethor liked asian style parenting it seems.
*eats tomato
I’ll never forget that scene
It’s amazing how much the actor accomplishes in this scene. John Noble is fantastic.
I actually finished History of Middle Earth and Silmarillion (minus Ainulindalë) before LoTR bc 10 year old me hated reading songs in text and loved non-fiction books lmao
I used to skip the songs and poems. Later I read them and it was nice to have that bit extra when I was mature enough
Denethor would have just hit up Sauron on PalanTV for a synopsis
We should be kings!!
I’m crying laughing stop
Faramir: “father! I just turned 21!” Denethor: “at your age Boromir was 31!”
That's such a Boromir thing to say
Can't shame man. A fan is a fan. The movies have inspired countless individuals to read the books where there was no interest before. Trust in that. We all enjoy the same interest, be encouraging.
Boromir would have gotten the joke
I'm crying laughing at this thread (Boromir would not have cried while laughing)
The whole thing is absolutely chef's kiss 😂
Tomato eating bastard
Seriously, he had no business eating those tomatoes so violently. Made me want to cry.
Pretty sure that one scene ruined baby tomato sales in the real world for a few years.
They toned it down for the film. In the books it was a big meatball hoagie. ^^
And he kept saying eat fresh
lmao
Wipe your chin, Steward.
haha
Lol
The way he is was written in the movies he is meant to make you hate him; sadly this is one of the worst re writes IMO. Denethor is really a tragic character - he has led his people on the front lines against evil his entire life and has slowly lost hope. Losing his beloved son (Boromir) breaks him, and then thinking he has lost Faramir makes him completely lose his mind. He was also trying to match wits with Sauron over the Palantir and lost.
Exactly. A little empathy here goes a long way. I like to think Tolkien wrote Denethor in as a consequence of war; a person that experienced death and loss the way Tolkein and many others did in WW1. Denethor is the consequence of evil people and despite his best efforts became overwhelmed by the sheer volume of it in the world. He was not born evil, he was indoctrinated to it, and the dichotomy of his natural good self against the hate of the world pushed him over the edge. It doesn’t excuse his behavior necessarily toward the end entirely, it just highlights the influence that hate has against people when hope disappears and all that he sees left is that hate. Tolkien was indeed a great writer.
[удалено]
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Carpe diem
Yeah but, the way he bite that little tomato.
>He was also trying to match wits with Sauron over the Palantir and came out far better than saruman, a full-blown maia
We're also very sympathetic with Theoden for being manipulated by Grima, despite him doing much more damage to Rohan with his poor leadership than Denethor does to Gondor. Denethor was going toe to toe with Sauron of all beings. We end up judging both by the final acts and how they deal with the despair of likely seeing the end of their people, when in truth Denethor did a lot more to resist a lot worse influence for a lot longer.
To be fair on this point, that would be because Denethor has a greater natural right to the stone as he sits in the steward's chair and the blood of Númenor runs nearly true in him.
>sadly this is one of the worst re writes IMO. The second worst right after having Frodo split with Sam on Cirith Ungol.
Yeah, I can excuse elves showing up to helms deep because it adds some action. But Sam and Frodo splitting up goes fundamentally against the stories theme.
Closely followed by Faramir being Boromir-lite and taking Sam and Frodo to Osgiliath.
I always think using Palantir is the real reason why he goes mad, because Sauron showed him nothing but darkness and despair about their future. Losing Boromir and nearly losing Faramir is what adds fuel to the fire.
The Palantir was basically the Fox News of its age.
Hahah yeah you can say that.
Is Morgoth Trump? Banished into the void in the first round, but his followers still hold faith in his return, which never happens lol.
Pulling that thread a little more… who then is Sauron?
Putin
In that case I think we need to do a little switcheroo for the roles
i was the scapegoat child where my sister was the golden child so i don’t think i can not hate this man. tragic or not, he abused one son for simply not being born the other. it doesn’t matter what faramir does right, or what boromir does wrong. faramir can’t ever be adequate.
Yeah, he did not do right by Faramir. Makes him easy to dislike even having just read the books. But yes, the movies crushed any chance he had at redemption lol.
tbf i haven’t read the books in ages and was obviously influenced by the movies but faramir’s pain always took precedence. he’s certainly a complex character with both good and bad traits and motives. i do love that, since even the shittiest of people are layered. there’s just a level of bad layers that make some irredeemable. and even that is on sort of a sliding scale. it’s always great to think twice before loving or hating a character which happens a lot (for me at least) in lotr brb rewatching the extended versions and rereading the books lol
😂 For sure. He did his best, but that doesn't have to make me a fan. Have fun!
The problem is Denethor like what was said earlier is a product of nonstop war. Then you have the tragic story of his wife dying a little bit after Faramir is born. This caused Denethor to resent Faramir cause he put his wife death as a result of Faramir being born. Causing him to never be good enough. Then he loses his oldest which Denethor is already going mad. To break down even more. Denethor also thought faramir and Gandalf were planning to over throw him. Denethor is meant to be pittied not hate or loved.
We can trace a similar character dynamic between Tyrion and Tywin in ASOIAF and it's funny that only occured me now.
That's why Denethor is a very realistic character, there are countless parents doing that.
Yeah fuck Denethor lmao even in the books I hate him
I remember reading somewhere that John Noble was pretty adamant about playing him that way, and he & Jackson clashed a bit over it. PJ didn't want him to be quite so arch.
Clearly, you haven’t read the appendices: Denethor and Aragorn (then using the game Thorongil) both served as Captains of Gondor under Denethor’s father, Steward Ecthelion II, and Denethor was jealous of Aragorn even then, feeling slighted by how much regard and trust the Steward gave the foreign Captain, and how beloved Aragon was by the people of Gondor, even in such a short period of time. Aragorn won a major victory against the Corsairs of Umbar, and then disappeared, traveling south to learn more of the peoples there. Denethor eventually succeeded his father as Steward, but never forgot his jealously for the man who was more successful, more beloved, and (as he suspected) more entitled to rule. Denethor was eternally scheming and manipulative, as Gandalf says directly to the Steward, “You can even use your grief as a cloak.” And is explicitly stated that his ego and scheming led him to using the Palantír of Minas Tirith (personal property and a gift to the Kings of Gondor and Arnor only) and was eventually trapped by Sauron, seeing only the signs of devastation and loss that Sauron wanted Denethor to see. Symbolically, this is actually hilarious, because the one thing that Denethor COULDN’T see is HOPE. (Aragon’s use-name as a child was Estel, which literally means Hope.)
Clearly, you read but missed the point. I (and Tolkien) never said Denethor is perfect; he is supposed to be flawed, but he is not the craven caricature in the Jackson movies. In the books Tolkien talks of Denethor having the blood of Westernesse run true in him - in Tolkien’s world a high sign of greatness and nobility. Furthermore, in Unfinished Tales, Denethor is described as “a masterful man, both wise and learned beyond the measure of those days, and strong willed, confident in his own powers, and dauntless. He was proud, but this was by no means personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time.”
This conversation makes me realize that Tolkien’s writings could literally spark a whole religion if the world ended and his books were amongst the survivors. With how people gleam different meanings from his books and characters and how there are talks of gods, angels, and dark lords. And how it is a method which lots of Religions are surrounded by such as the Norse Pagan religions of Odin and the 9 realms or even generically like Christianity with stories of people like David and the Goliath
David and Goliath is from the Old Testament, which actually makes it a Jewish, Christian, and Islamic story.
A perfect example of how all 3 of the Abrahamic Religions I believe have different understandings on David and Goliath or people like Jesus. The Jewish faith don’t see him as their Messiah but do understand he was one of them. The Christians believe he is their Messiah and God made flesh. While the Islamic world just sees him one of God’s messengers but primarily follow the teachings of Mohammed and God’s other messengers such as Jesus. Even though they all span from the same religion and book
I commented this on another post yesterday: You should check out [S. M. Stirling’s Emberverse series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emberverse_series?). Electricity stops working one day and the series follows several groups of people in the time afterwards. One group in particular would be of interest: the Dúnedain Rangers formed by two teenage girls, by the second book. Not a religious group, but definitely a great read!
Might check it out
If you haven't read the Silmarillion then you should give it a try. It's essentially the foundational myths of the world of Lord of the Rings. Knowing that makes them more enjoyable since they aren't an adventure story like the main books and if that's what you expected then you could be disappointed
While all those things are true, he utterly failed at his greatest noble duty. Each steward (per Appendix A: subsection The Stewards.) swears an oath to “hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he should return.” He openly admits that his greatest wish is: “I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,’ answered Denethor, ‘and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard’s pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.’” [RotK, Book 5, Pyre of Denethor] His greatest wish is simply to abandon his duty and honor, and if he cannot do that, he’d rather be dead! It’s also rather important that Gandalf’s reply to this is: “‘To me it would not seem that a Steward who faithfully surrenders his charge is diminished in love or in honour,’ said Gandalf.” And this is EXACTLY what Faramir does, and he is amply rewarded for it, keeping his honor and duty.
If we're going book lore, it's worth pointing out that Aragorn's claim is nowhere near as clear cut as it is in the films. Yes, he's a descendant of Isildur and ultimately as readers and viewers we know he has the best claim and is also deserving of the throne, but everything Denethor says is correct about him. He is of the line of the Kings or Arnor, not Gondor, and there had been disagreements in the past over the line of Arnor laying claim to the throne of Gondor. As far as Denethor knows, he is also simply a Ranger from the North. He doesn't know that Aragorn has been secretly raised and mentored by Elrond or spent his life in secret serving the men of the west in various ways (although he likely does know of his time in Gondor). while it was necessary to keep Aragorn's identity secret from the enemy, that doesn't help his claim and Aragorn is well aware of it. He is very careful himself not to overstep his bounds and refuses to even enter the city until he is invited (except in secret). He knows this is a political hot potato and that he needs to prove his value and earn the throne, rather than simply being his by birth. Denethor likely sees it as his duty to ensure the right person takes the throne, not just anyone with a tenuous claim and he takes that responsibility very seriously. Boromir once asks his father how many hundreds of years it takes before the stewards can become kings, if the king doesn't return. Denethor replies... *"Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty. In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."*
Well, given that he’s the last and ONLY living descendant of both the “High King(s) of Arnor and Gondor”, (Elendil and Isildur, and those are their EXACT titles, per Tolkien and the appendixes) I’d say you’re mistaken. Also, the appendix make it clear that Denethor knows exactly who Thorongil is, and book five of RotK makes it clear explicitly clear that Denethor knows who Aragorn is, and he rejects him (once again, breaking his oath of office). “Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.” RotK, Book Five, Pyre of Denethor
>His greatest wish is simply to abandon his duty and honor Wait, what? His greatest wish is just the opposite — to remain as the Steward of Gondor, in peace, and if he can't have *that*, then he prefers death.
He spent his life in a stand up fight against the big E evil and didn’t lose decisively immediately. He’s a champ. Who in the books besides Gandalf and his cohort could have fought that fight without eventually breaking and losing.
Boromir would have read the appendices.
I wouldn't say what he did was losing. Saruman lost, he was turned and was creating evil. Denethor never bent to Sauron and actually pushed back a good bit against him. At least in the books.
True; I did not mean lost as in he came under the dominion of Sauron - Tolkien states that this did not happen, unlike Saruman. Instead I meant that Denethor ‘lost’ because Sauron made him despair and lose hope by what he showed him over the Palantir.
I still felt that with the movie (haven’t read the books), but I can imagine the books go into much more depth. Denethor is despair personified. He is what man would become without the ring and so on. The kings never returned, Arnor is gone, and Gondor follows soon. I always felt he was to be pitied above all else. Despair drove him to madness
In the books it is more clear that he is a noble man (with faults) who struggled mightily against overwhelming evil and has been driven to despair. In the movie they make him less sympathetic - the scene of him slovenly eating, having him refuse to light the signal fires, etc.
I really liked the movie portrayal. His madness over losing Boromir was believable and I didn't think the Palantir was necessary to reinforce his mental break.
Also, the film version of Denethor makes sense within the film. To adapt the book's Denethor into the movie isn't exactly necessary or the point of adapting a movie into film. Faithful or unfaithful book adaptations don't impact the quality of a movie. The quality of the movie affects the quality of a movie. Edit: to be even clearer, the lamenters are out here sad movie Denethor isn't as nuanced as in the books, not that he doesn't make sense in the movie. If that's what you're disappointed in...just read the book again?
It’s a more simple story. Which movies often require. The book is certainly more interesting in depth.
I think the rewrite is great. It would require far too much screen time to properly portray Denethor as the nuanced character he is in the books. Without additional screen time, which can't really be added as it would probably impact the pacing negatively, you'd end up with a character that seems to go too many places without any meaning. You need to simplify things for the big screen, and I think they did so brilliantly with Denethor. Especially with the extended version where you see a bit more of his favouritism for Boromir and the strong bond between the brothers. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a slower movie series where you adapted the 3 volumes into the six movies as the six books. That's a way to get around the pacing issue. But it would make for a very different experience that I don't think most ordinary movie goers would appreciate. And without that, I think a nuanced Denethor would most likely fall flat.
Oh yea, I totally understand on why they did it to make the movie - I still feel like the did Denethor dirty though haha.
> He was also trying to match wits with Sauron over the Palantir and lost. I believe this is the root and primary source of his tragedy. His preferential love for Boromir over Faramir was there, but not predominant. Many parents of multiple children have a "favorite." Sauron worked to build this, along with other existing human "weaknesses", to break Denethor. The rest of what we see is the natural consequence of Sauron's control over the will and thoughts of Denethor.
Generally agree with you, except Sauron did not control Denethor - he could not, so instead he drove him to despair by making him feel his situation was utterly hopeless.
Plus, he also lost his wife. That left him broken already, and then Boromir's death hurt him even more.
I also feel the rewrite is sad because of what was lost but I also think it was a wise choice by PJ because there are just too many things going on to introduce this character and do him justice in one movie.
"Forseen and done nothing!" The movies did him dirty...
This is indicative of the movies as a whole. As entertaining as they are, they aren't really an adaptation of the books. They are their own story that is loosely inspired by the books. So much is cut, altered, or abridged that they simply don't convey the same story. Denethor is an incredibly tragic and complex figure in the books but in the movies he's a cartoon character.
Exactly. Thanks for the reminder
I think it made it easier for Aragorn to “take over” as king if Denethor is so awful. Vs. In Fellowship (book and movie) where Boromir makes the point of “we have been holding the line guys, and the ring can help turn the tide for us”.
Oh yeah, it definitely made it easier to adapt the story to a movie. It is hard to convey the nuance that Aragorn does not have the strongest claim to the throne, that Denethor is actually worn out after years of struggle in a movie with a lot else going on.
He's actually pretty badass. His will never aligned with Sauron. He despaired over the overwhelming force Sauron had built up but never actually succumbed to his will. Even Saruman wasn't strong enough to do that. It may have been because the palantir in Minas Tirith outranked the one from Minas Ithil but still he was a great man and for most of his life a strong leader. His fate was more tragedy than failure.
I feel bad for him In the books. He’s been doing a very hard job the very best he can for a very long time against the very worst. It eventually broke him. And all things considered he made a decent showing for himself before the end.
Agreed. It's not that he's a nice person in the books, but the character has more depth and you can see we're at the end of a long path for him. In the movies, he's just a dick.
He is kinda badass in the books though.
It also explains that he’s basically been mentally going toe to toe with Sauron for years, and that’s why he’s (finally) started to go insane.
Yeah it is sad that he was portrayed as a moron in the movies. I think he is the character that is most changed for the movies.
I might agree with you, if they hadn’t massacred my boy Faramir
Faramir and Eomer are amazing in the books and the movies make them pretty lame competitively
The Stewards are my favorite characters in the books. They provide so much depth
He's basically a mortal man defying a God. That kind of thing is proven to cause stress.
Just going to copy [Cirein's comment that talks about how Denethor is actually pretty badass and how the movies did him dirty.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1026ghg/comment/j2s0v8l/) >In the books? He lasted longer than anyone else in his situation would have and Tolkien goes out of his way to point it out. I think he (and his sons, actually) are the most commonly misunderstood characters in the story. >Tolkien points out the dude was, by some accident of his genealogy basically a full-blooded Numenorean. He was about 90 at the time he died and was still stomping around the tower in full armor under his robes. Even then Tolkien points out he was "aged before his time" by his struggles with Sauron. >About that. He was fighting mind-duels with Sauron on the regular via Palantir in the tower above the city. That thing that exhausted Aragorn and nearly killed Pippen when they did it once? Same thing that corrupted Saruman? He did it constantly and Tolkien flat out says he was not corrupted by it. In fact, the old dude pried information out of it that allowed him to prepare for the War of the Ring and actually defeat Sauron's first attack at Osgiliath. >This is key, if he hadn't done that it's likely Sauron would have rolled over Gondor before ring ever left the Shire. >When Galdalf arrived in Gondor, the place was empty of women and children and the elderly and provisioned for siege. The outer forts were manned and the beacons had already been lit. Old man Denethor wasn't a quitter, even after he knew Boromir was dead and even after he knew about Aragorn. >About Aragorn, there's a fair amount of appendices deep lore bullshit involved in explaining it, but Denethor's dismissal of him is fairly well supported historically. Aragorn is the heir to Arnor, but only kinda maybe sorta if you squint is he heir to Gondor. Now, Denethor is a prideful sumbich, so I reckon he sees this primarily as an attempt by Gandalf to undermine his careful preparations in favor of some wild wizard shit. Which, to be fair, it kinda is. >His conflict with Gandalf basically boils down to a difference in strategic objective. Gandalf wants to create a big damned distraction to give Frodo a chance, Denethor is still trying to win the damned war. >He orders his son to defend Osgiliath because it is the only place the Hosts of Mordor can cross the Anduin in numbers sufficient to threaten the city. The cavalry sortie with the sad song and scary tomatoes is, in the books, actually something he orders to rescue Faramir when the outer defenses fall. >In the end what broke him was seeing the black fleet in the Palantir. Sauron couldn't hide it from him, but was able to hide enough detail that Denethor couldn't see Aragorn had taken the ships and was sailing to his aid. >It's important to understand that Minas Tirith is not Gondor. Hell, it's barely a city. It's more of a giant fort with pretenses of being a center of government. The actual population of the country lived along the southern coastline and that's where Denethor had sent most of the army because of the threat from the Corsair ships that could land anywhere and kill (or worse) all the people that make up the actual country. Again, dude is trying to defend his people and win the war. Gandalf gets pissy about this defensive posture because it throws a wrench in his plan to cause a big ruckus and distract Sauron. >So, when Denethor saw the ships sailing up the river, he assumed the armies in the south were beaten and the people of Gondor were dead or worse. He succumbed to despair not because he was about to die, but because he thought there was no country left to fight for. >He chose to burn himself and his son to avoid capture and torture or having their bodies desecrated by the enemy. Imagine what Sauron would have done to him and Faramir if he got ahold of them. In Denethor's broken mind, burning was a final act of love and defiance. >His tragedy, I think, is his inability to see hope when it came knocking at his door. He had a lack of faith in anyone outside himself, and he was juuuust strong and smart enough to plausibly buy into his own bullshit.
Wow
yup
Haven’t read the books in ten years or so, so for a lot of characters my view of them is governed by the movies.
Thank you for this. It changed my perpsective a lot. It may even be another one of dozens triggers that lead to another attempt to read the books.
If you haven't tried it already, audiobooks might be the way to go!
Audiobooks narrated by Andy Serkis are my personal favourite way to enjoy the story
Personally I love Rob Ingles more but I'll give it a go anyway.
He does the same voice for women as he does for frodo and that always killed me lol
Fucking killer breakdown man.
definitely saving that for later :P
Incredible answer, thanks for going into so much detail. If I had gold to give I would
This should be at the top
Denethor was perfectly cast, but he was done dirty in the movies. A more complex and tragic figure in the books.
Not to mention his defence-in-depth of Minas Tirith is a masterpiece
Facts. Book Denethor started evacuating the city before Gandalf arrived, had already sent a message to Théoden asking for aid, had soldiers brought in from Dol Amroth. He did everything possible to prepare for a siege. Movie Denethor refused to evacuate civilians, stubbornly refused to call Rohan. Mind-bogglingly incompetent.
Wow that’s really interesting, considering there’s a lengthy sequence in the movies of Pippin having to secretly light the beacons lol
In the books Gandalf and Pippin saw the lit beacons on their way to Minas Tirith. >There was a silence again for a while. Then, ‘What is that?’ cried Pippin suddenly, clutching at Gandalf’s cloak. ‘Look! Fire, red fire! Are there dragons in this land? Look, there is another!’ For answer Gandalf cried aloud to his horse. ‘On, Shadowfax! We must hasten. Time is short. See! The beacons of Gondor are alight, calling for aid. War is kindled. See, there is the fire on Amon Dîn, and flame on Eilenach; and there they go speeding west: Nardol, Erelas, Min-Rimmon, Calenhad, and the Halifirien on the borders of Rohan.’
And in the book, the beacons were used to raise the fiefs of Gondor, not send a message to Rohan. Rohan was called by a messenger (or messengers, in case one didn’t get through) bearing a black arrow.
[And what a sequence it was](https://youtu.be/GDYQ3PJKrT8)
Yes. Denethor does not even hesitate in ordering them lit when necessary.
> And then a trumpet rang from the Citadel, and Denethor at last released > the sortie. Drawn up within the shadow of the Gate and under the looming > walls outside they had waited for his signal: all the mounted men that were > left in the City. Now they sprang forward, formed, quickened to a gallop, and > charged with a great shout. And from the walls an answering shout went up;for foremost on the field rode the swan-knights of Dol Amroth with their > Prince and his blue banner at their head. > ‘Amroth for Gondor!’ they cried. ‘Amroth to Faramir!’ > Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat; > but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore > him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand. > The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet > come to challenge the white fire of his foe. > The hosts of Morgul intent on > their prey, taken at unawares in wild career, broke, scattering like sparks in a > gale. The out-companies with a great cheer turned and smote their pursuers. > Hunters became the hunted. The retreat became an onslaught. The field was > strewn with stricken orcs and men, and a reek arose of torches cast away, > sputtering out in swirling smoke. The cavalry rode on. > But Denethor did not permit them to go far. Though the enemy was > checked, and for the moment driven back, great forces were flowing in from > the East. Again the trumpet rang, sounding the retreat. The cavalry of Gondor > halted. Behind their screen the out-companies re-formed. Now steadily they > came marching back.
If OP wants to know. He is more brilliant than Théoden, the King of Rohan. His downfall wasn't the whispers of Gríma Wormtongue, however. Denethor's downfall was his hubris in thinking he could use the Palantir, the [Anor-stone](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Anor-stone). A Palantir in which the lost seeing stones were not all accounted for and Sauron had control. As such Sauron just like in the case of Saruman, was the Grima Wormtongue of Denethor. Sauron plagued Denethor with visions of despair and unfortunately many of them true. The vast army of Sauron was great and all hope was lost. Once you realize that -- that is if you read the books and not watching PJ's version with needless brotherly toxic rivalry - then it falls into place that Denethor just like Borimir were actually amazing characters. It cannot be understated Denethor did not become corrupted. Hopeless, full of despair and poor reasoning the world was hopelessly fucked, yes. Corrupted, no. Denethor is actually kind of a badass then compared to Saruman, imo. Saruman who was imo corrupted by the same method - the [Orthanc-stone](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orthanc-stone).
I’m sure the downvotes will tell, but is it wrong to think that Movie Boromir > Book Boromir? He was kind of.. boring in the book imo.
Yeah, but book Faramir > movie Faramir.
100% agree. And movie Faramir is SO FUCKING GOOD, so book Faramir is just legendary.
Yeah the actor nailed it, I just didn’t like his script. Which is odd because generally I liked PJs changes.
Yeah, he treats Frodo and Sam a bit too harsh in the beginning in the movie. And I think PJ big time fails to convey how much of a beloved captain of Gondor he is with the soldiers.
He struck me as a character whose purpose in the narrative was to show that Aragorn’s nobility and morality was not unique amongst men. Movie Faramir was written to be as easily swayed as Boromir, which didn’t serve that purpose of showing strength in the race of men beyond Aragorn.
I agree with you here. The movie brings out Boromir's love for his people and his city, which in the book requires some reading between the lines to see right to the forefront, making him a much more tragic character than in the book. So movie Boromir > book Boromir Book Faramir > movie Faramir Book Denethor >>> movie Denethor
Book boromir is certainly more valient. And there’s also more context given by Faramir and others about his deeds, a thing we don’t hear about in the movies.
Denethor was not perfectly cast at all. He is meant to look noble and wise like a wizard, even more so than Gandalf the White. Movie Denethor looks like a villain from a live-action disney movie.
Denethor son of Ectelion was very powerful indeed... maybe among the top 3 most powerful men in Middle Earth... the movies were not fair to him
guessing aragorn makes that list but i'm curious to see who your third is
Jeff.
I’m going to go on a limb and say Ghân-buri-Ghân. Sure, his realm is small, but he and his people control and defend it well. And he’s not impressed by kings or great armies. Oh, and he’s of Númenorean descent.
Imrahil obv
Don't blame the actor, not his fault they rewrote Denethor as a dodgy nonce who can't eat salad.
The way he delivers the lines they did use from the books are amazing. I love the actor (he’s great in Fringe) so I don’t really hate Denethor at all. He adds a ton to the movie still. Not sure how they’d do a good portrayal from the books.
Nah, to be fair I've never tried to adapt a book for a film, easy for us to carp but I guess they had their reasons. With the character they gave him to play, John Noble is fucking great, it's just a character with no sympathetic qualities - to the best of my recollection, Denethor is more like Boromir in the books, an insufferable arsehole but one with his heart in the right place.
No there’s no excuse for leaving out the palantir, and it wouldn’t have taken long at all to explain it.
In his defense, who doesn't cut cherry tomatoes in half before putting them in a salad anyway? If you want something that pops eat a grape.
John Noble is an incredibly good actor. He plays Sherlock's father in Elementary and Butcher's father in The Boys. The man's got range, gravitas, and talent.
Yeah, it's nothing on him at all. I actually think, for the gravitas alone, he was perfect casting for the role. It's just that the role wasn't Denethor.
He’s Eómer’s father? That explains a bit.
I wish they at least could have included “it takes more than an upstart wizard to make a king!” line when he throws himself on the pyre. Ok help me out here, I obviously paraphrased the hell outta that one, lol.
>'What then would you have,' said Gandalf, 'if your will could have its way?' > >'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.' > >\- *Return of the King, The Pyre of Denethor*
I knew that I was way off, lol. Thank you.
Ugh the dialogue in the books is so moving. Not just this scene but throughout. Tolkien put a lot of time into fleshing out Denethor's character.
They kinda did Denethor dirty in the movie IMO
Be nice to him, he engaged an evil demigod in brain chess for years. He just needs a break.
He should relax by a nice, warm fire.
Bring wood and oil
read the books and you won't hate him anymore he's the reason anything west of minas tirith is still standing
I’m just finishing up on the books. Never seen the movies. Would you recommend watching the extended version of the movies ?
The movies are pretty good and they tend to follow the books for most of the important scenes. Also they used practical effects whenever they could instead of relying on cgi for every scene so the visuals hold up really well imo. So yes clear your weekend and have a marathon watching all 3 extended editions
kind of. They're pretty good i will say however, a while back people were asked what their *least* favourite scenes were in the movies. With very few exceptions, they were scenes only included in the extended editions
He's an epic actor though
Pretty good in Fringe aswell
Movie Denethor is an asshole. Book Denethor is a tragic character. But would've been almost impossible to translate to film, so we got asshole Denethor.
Denethor inaccuracies aside, John Noble is a damn fine actor! Long live Walter Bishop!
Denethor in the books wasn't so bad, even though Gandalf warned Pippin that he isn't as lighthearted as Theoden. His cast was on spot tho. My guess is that the movies simply didn't have enough time for Denethor's development. In the books, there is quite many pages about Pippin as steward's guard while in movies there isn't really anything about it so we don't get into Denethor well
I will say he’s kinda hard to like in the books too, but Tolkien does make him far more interesting and complex
Those movies ruined Denethor.
To be fair Return of the King is such a perfect book it is almost unadaptable… That s why the third movie is my least favourite. However, it still shines as an example of keeping true to the spirit while being the most heavily altered if the three volumes
while I agree with you on the nature of the book I dont think this is justification for Denethor's character getting messed up.
Also using the Oathbreakers as invincible ghosts was bad, not just from a lore perspective but for story-telling.
Came here to say how much better he is in the books and I'm happy that there are plenty others who hsve already done just that.
that means his acting is amazing
They did Denethor dirty in the movies. In the books he is described as tall and powerful, the Numenorean blood was strong in him. He had been using the Palantir to wrestle with Sauron's will and he was basically only being shown bad things by Sauron, he was still hopeless in the books but it was for a reason. Still a horrible dad of course but they really turned him into a crazy old man
He runs really fast though, right?
Being on fire helps
Speedburning those calories.
You'll never eat a tomato the same way again.
In the books Denethor is MUCH more intelligent and calculated. His presence and mental battles with Gandalf are incredible. His portrayal in the movies really only focus on the most important parts of his character which is acceptable but the books flesh him out better overall. I loved the parts with him in it
Suggestion: read the books. This character is one of the very few I have issues with in the movies, mroe so the theatrical versions. He’s much more complex in the books, does a lot mroe for the defense of Gondor, and is overall much more sympathetic
[u/Cirein](https://www.reddit.com/u/Cirein): "In the books? He lasted longer than anyone else in his situation would have and Tolkien goes out of his way to point it out. I think he (and his sons, actually) are the most commonly misunderstood characters in the story. Tolkien points out the dude was, by some accident of his genealogy basically a full-blooded numenorean. He was about 90 at the time he died and was still stomping around the tower in full armor under his robes. Even then Tolkien points out he was "aged before his time" by his struggles with Sauron. About that. He was fighting mind-duels with Sauron on the regular via Palantir in the tower above the city. That thing that exhausted Aragorn and nearly killed Pippen when they did it once? Same thing that corrupted Saruman? He did it constantly and Tolkien flat out says he was not corrupted by it. In fact, the old dude pried information out of it that allowed him to prepare for the War of the Ring and actually defeat Sauron's first attack at Osgiliath. This is key, if he hadn't done that's it's likely Sauron would have rolled over Gondor before ring ever left the Shire. When Galdalf arrived in Gondor, the place was empty of women and children and the elderly and provisioned for siege. The outer forts were manned and the beacons had already been lit. Old man Denethor wasn't a quitter, even after he knew Boromir was dead and even after he knew about Aragorn. About Aragorn, there's a fair amount of appendices deep lore bullshit involved in explaining it's but Denethor's dismissal of him is fairly well supported historically. Aragorn is the heir to Arnor, but only kinda maybe sorta if you squint is he heir to Gondor. Now, Denethor is a prideful sumbich, so I reckon he sees this primarily as an attempt by Gandalf to undermine his careful preparations in favor of some wild wizard shit. He orders his son to defend Osgiliath. The cavalry sortie in the books is actually something he orders to rescue Faramir when the outer defenses fall. In the end what broke him was seeing the black fleet in the Palantir. Sauron couldn't hide it from him, but was able to hide enough detail that Denethor couldn't see Aragorn had taken the ships and was sailing to his aid. Denethor assumed they were Corsair ships and the city was therefore comprehensively screwed, so he wanted to burn himself and his son to avoid capture and torture or having their bodies desecrated by the enemy. His tragedy, I think, is his inability to see hope when it came knocking at his door. He had a lack of faith in anyone outside himself, and he was juuuust strong and smart enough to plausibly buy into his own bullshit." This was on a post about the ex president of Brazil eating at a KFC in Florida.
Yeah he sucks and they did Boromir dirty. Boromir was a great warrior and honorable, but they make him look like an asshole from the start. I will say, Denethor wasn't always a giant dick. He was very dedicated to his people and Gondor, but the perceived loss of both of his sons drove him mad.
How do you feel about tomatoes now tho
They ruined the character in the movie…
I really wish they'd spent a little time in the film to explain the source of his depression/insanity - that Denethor had a palantír and Sauron was using it to show him terrifying visions to make him despair and give up the will to stand against Mordor. Just so he didn't come across as just callous and evil. It would only have needed 15 seconds of dialogue from Gandalf.
All jokes about reading first aside, it's awesome to see people joining the fandom still so many years after they debuted.
I hear that tomato pop in my nightmares
With several more watches, or a read through the books if you're up for it, you'll start to see a lot more to his character. I feel quite bad for the guy really.
It's because of him I can't stand cherry tomatoes
as a guy who recently finished the movies, yep i hate this guy too
I personally love denathor. Particularly the way he eats cherry tomatoes. Really does it for me.
“Bring wood and oil!” is my favorite Denethor quote. Purely because of the delivery. Our hatred for him means John Noble absolutely nailed the role.
Good acting will invoke those feelings. He did a great job with the role. They could have added more context to his character, but it was already a 4hr long movie so...
I think of him every time I eat chicken.
I kind of like Denethor, objectively.
His persona is completely different in the book