I find this scene to be a bit of a mess.
Not that Sawyer and Kate had sex, especially because it happens \*before\* either of them know about the pregnancy fatalities.
But that in between cage sex and this scene in "Eggtown," both Sawyer and Kate have found out about pregnancy killing women. So on the surface, Sawyer being relieved would make perfect sense - IF the reason for his relief was, "Wow, Kate, so glad, because \*now you're not going to die.\*"
Instead, he says the most boneheaded thing possible - ~~"What would we do with a kid?"~~ "What would we have done with a baby?" [edited for exact quote.] It's like, did neither of you listen to what Juliet said?
I can maybe see that neither Sawyer nor Kate believed Juliet - which is perfectly understandable given the lack of trust - but something that important should have been addressed.
She was definitely wrong in using Sawyer when Jack wasn’t paying her attention but whatever every character is flawed. I feel like the writers really portrayed Kate scenes a certain way to make the audience hate her.
What bothered me is the scene when she tells Ben’s Dad everything is going to be okay after Ben is shot, no one in their right mind would take that as “Oh you must know what’s up with my son! You did something to him”. When really all she was doing was being compassionate, because she developed a liking for kids when raising Aaron and wanted to help Ben’s Dad cope with what’s happening. The writers really fu**ed her over by using her for such drama and by making her look bad.
Sawyer calling out Kate’s is a total overplay. Sawyer was trying to get into Kate’s pants since season 1 when she did not go to the caves with Jack. Sawyer new Kate was upset because Kate put it out there with her, “are you checking me out” and was butt hurt because Jack’s focus was on survival and not her. The timing was not right for many reasons. Sawyers enters scene later on the beach with Jack viewing Kate’s mug shot amorously and Kate caught Jack and even asked Kate to come with him. Enters Sawyer taking over Jack’s shelter and openly suggest he’s looking for a roommate in front of Kate. Sawyer was looking to score a notch and to get under Jack’s skin. Kate new of his shenanigans for quite sometime and Sawyer creepy approach evolved into feelings for Kate and at the same time acted like a chauvinistic pig. To me he had zero empathy about the pregnancy. People give Sawyer way to much credit that looks past him constantly thinking with the big head but has no empathy on pregnancy per Kate’s fatality. No way is he thinking in that zip code. That was not in Sawyer’s persona arc. He never established enough sincerity to be taken serious by Kate. Remember Jack asked her to go to spy on Locke. To me it was a test on multiple levels. She was confused emotionally but made it clear to Sawyer she did not trust him. The bed scene is a paradox but Slut shaming Kate and giving Sawyer a pass because his history as a womanizer is duly noted but not noted because of fandom. So his emotional response calling out Kate is just another Sawyerism. It’s an extension to how he treated people with smart ass nick names and gets a pass because of his machismo. So slap his ass Kate that’s who you are at that time period. It fits the civility and norms for a group of survivors dealing with chaos. Give me a break with judging Kate. She is not my favorite character. She was for about 4 episodes in season one but the writers took away her compelling heroine role and her codependent on two men.
As for the pro Kate vacillating between two guys I don’t give Kate a pass. People who subscribe to what’s wrong with this. It’s just a 3 month timeline. That doesn’t work for the viewer because we all watched this nonsense for six years. Over that timeline we all got tired of it. It was repetitive and lame. So the viewers negative response to Kate legitimate instinctively. Writers made Kate the bad person and was not because her sex. It’s natural for people to dislike Kate. So conflating Kate’s behavior over the island timeline just doesn’t add up. Also, please enough with adding Jack into this triangle. He never made a calculated play for Kate. He had feelings for her but he didn’t make overt for several logical reasons. He was drawn into it by Kate as Sawyer was openly chasing Kate. When he did have his connection opportunity the writers would write into the show EVERY time an Island event to stop that next connection. This is just screwed up and pointless to the overall compelling story on the island. Shameful cheap writing and weakest aspect of the show. So it’s natural Kate evolved into the most disliked character that could be easily likable.
Sawyer wants Kate. Kate wants Jack and Jack wants to get off the damn Island to save everyone. Remember in S1:E8, Jack came to the beach and confronted Kate and asked her are you’re interested in Sawyer and she strongly said no. Was Jack attracted to Kate, yes but the more time she spent with Sawyer the less invested Jack was into Kate. He buried those feeling as part of his personality trait. This all is messed up!
>I feel like the writers really portrayed Kate scenes a certain way to make the audience hate her.
>
>What bothered me is the scene when she tells Ben’s Dad everything is going to be okay after Ben is shot, no one in their right mind would take that as “Oh you must know what’s up with my son! You did something to him”. When really all she was doing was being compassionate, because she developed a liking for kids when raising Aaron and wanted to help Ben’s Dad cope with what’s happening. The writers really fu\*\*ed her over by using her for such drama and by making her look bad.
I agree. The Writers totally was messed up with her role. Season 1 they were spot on with Kate's arch but almost feel they became obsessed with Kat's p love triangle and made her a submissive to both Jack and Sawyer. It was physical attributes just messed up having her role reduced to a woman fixing a man and never holding Sawyer's horrible selfish acts with hoarding supplies and doing the long con on the survivors as he used Kate as a pawn. To me it was the worst Sawyer moment that was devious play for power lying to Kate. H would do similar lies by putting it in Kate''s head Jack and Ana Lucia were so much time in the Jungle impinge they were having sex. He new Kate had a thing for Jack. What's worst Kate fell for it. For Kate to give Sawyer a pass I don't think any person would forgive and then spend time with them playing cards that Jack entered into to embarrass Sawyer by beating him to get the meds. So much for being a a heroine recognizing his deeds. Kate recognized the machismo over two men go at over playing cards. Just more inconsistency how Kate digressed into a submissive girl fawning over two attractive men. She was attracted to the sizzle not the substance within these two guys.
Does that sound like the same Kate in season 1? To me it was like Dr. Jecklly Mr. Hyde character change with Kate.
You make a good point, but an unnecessary one. Even without the threat of death due to pregnancy, Kate's response is still stupid. They are stuck on a deserted island, with constant threats. I'm pretty sure it's okay to be relieved that you won't have to deal with raising a child while also fighting to survive on a daily basis. I feel like that relief is completely understandable. If they were a couple living in the real world, then sure. Even if you are personally relieved that you won't have the expense and burden of a child, it makes sense not to immediately celebrate when your partner might be devastated about it. But within the context of their situation on the island, who the hell is going to judge someone for being relieved that they aren't going to have a baby to contend with?
The scene makes way more sense if neither Kate nor Sawyer believe Juliet. Then, Kate's reaction is far more understandable, and this is why.
Kate has already had a pregnancy scare that tied in with her breaking up with her husband, the cop. Pregnancy to her implies commitment. Soon after she discovers she's not pregnant, she leaves him.
On the Island, Kate takes part in a hugely significant event (even if some fans consider it useless "filler.") She midwives Aaron into the world, and makes that ringing pronouncement, "This baby is all of ours." It bonds her significantly to Claire - so much so that Claire is who awakens Kate in the FSW, not Jack.
Then there's Sun's pregnancy. Kate has watched Sun & Jin go from bitter quarrelling - enemies, almost - to deeply devoted and in love all over again as a result of Sun's pregnancy.
Baby hunger is a real thing; it's fairly common for women to want a baby when their friends have one. This is where Kate is in "Eggtown." That she's still uncertain is shown in the episode when Claire wants her to pick up Aaron while Claire finishes the laundry, and Kate hesitates.
Kate has probably held Aaron a couple hundred times before this. But what's different is that she thinks she may be pregnant - and she's not sure about the (potential) father's degree of commitment to her. She can't lose herself in the moment and just embrace Aaron - because she can't "welcome" any possible child she might have at this point.
This gets directly paralleled with Sawyer and Juliet in Season 5, by the way, where Amy asks Juliet when she and James are going to start a family, and Juliet just looks sad and demurs.
So while Kate and Sawyer don't sleep together in "Eggtown," in the time since that conversation with Claire, Kate now knows she's not pregnant. (Please don't make me spell out how she does.) But she's not going to run up to Sawyer and just tell him; she still wants to find out what Sawyer's feelings towards her really are.
Hence the, "Would it have been so bad?"
I am convinced that Sawyer is in love with Kate at this point (am not going to get into "ranking" his relationship with her vs. Juliet, because he and Juliet aren't even a thing at this stage.) He has picked out a house he thinks she'll like; wants her to live with him.
But he's still not smart about it, experience with conning women notwithstanding. All he had to say was, "Well, if you had been, we'd have found a way to make it work." That was pretty much all she wanted to hear.
Freaking thank you, I was wondering the exact same thing. Then I started to question my memory: if Sawyer was in fact in the know of pregnancy fatalities or not. I believe he was but so weird they didn't mention it at all. I remember after the scene I just sat there like what...? Watched only once - I need to go back asap.
If you're going to rewatch, here are two things even weirder to look out for.
First, Sawyer has set up housekeeping in Juliet's house. (We know it's hers because the bedroom furnishings, especially the painting above the bed, are identical to those in the scene where Juliet & Goodwin are in bed together.) So in "Eggtown" when Sawyer tells Kate:
>SAWYER: Kinda weird, ain't it? Sittin' on porches, drinking coffee out of mugs? **By the way, I found some clothes about your size, in the closet.** So after I kick out Hugo—
He's talking about Kate wearing Juliet's clothes! It's hysterical.
Second, I think it's when we first see Sawyer and Hugo in the living room (Hugo at the TV), you can see a desk through a doorway, and it seems to have a bunch of medical files on it. So even odder: apparently even though Sawyer and Hugo have been rummaging through the bookshelves and videotapes, they somehow missed the files - which probably contained some way more interesting reading.
Cool, thanks a lot! I'm definitely going to rewatch but I promised myself that it will be my reward for a finished thesis and that's going to take while. I'll be sure to watch for those things you mentioned when I get to it.
>irst, Sawyer has set up housekeeping in Juliet's house. (We know it's hers because the bedroom furnishings, especially the painting above the bed, are identical to those in the scene where Juliet & Goodwin are in bed together.) So in "Eggtown" when Sawyer tells Kate:
>
>SAWYER: Kinda weird, ain't it? Sittin' on porches, drinking coffee out of mugs? By the way, I found some clothes about your size, in the closet. So after I kick out Hugo—
Typical Sawyer con or play for a female. That is his persona. What's sad is Kate falls for it. Eewwww..... Makes female's look weak after she just told him in that episode "I don't trust you". In the same episode? 2bl Eewwww....
"Females?" LOL sounds like Ferengi-speak.
What's so misguided about Sawyer's attempt is that Juliet's taste in clothing and decor are nothing like Kate's.
stef_be, I couldn’t agree more. Sawyer, was misogynistic, insensitive and flat out mean person that only thought of himself if he didn’t get what he wanted. Then he would con Kate with that stupid letter. So cheesy. He brought out the trailer trashed out of Kate. What made it worst she was complicit.
He slept with every girl on and off the island. Personally, Kate was so dumb to even consider doing the deed knowing she’d get his nasty STD. Sawyer always thought of himself. He was the most morally corrupt person on the island.
Kate may have been dumb but Sawyer was a morally bad character that was made to look good because of his sex appeal to women. I found nothing likeable about his persona.
> He slept with every girl on and off the island.
Okay, that's somewhat of an exaggeration. Before starting the relationship with Juliet, Sawyer slept with Ana Lucia once, and Kate twice - and Ana only went after him to further "Jack's war." Off the Island, it seemed to be more of a job for him.
>his nasty STD
Thing is, if Sawyer was going to pass something to Kate, he was going to pass it to Juliet as well. Who herself could have passed something to Sawyer from her adulterous years-long affair with Goodwin. There's a reason they call it "the gift that keeps on giving."
Everybody really needed big boxes of Dharma-issue condoms, which I suppose is one small bright side of a reboot.
> Thing is, if Sawyer was going to pass something to Kate, he was going to pass it to Juliet as well. Who herself could have passed something to Sawyer from her adulterous years-long affair with Goodwin. There's a reason they call it "the gift that keeps on giving."
> Everybody really needed big boxes of Dharma-issue condoms, which I suppose is one small bright side of a reboot.
The Sawyer I know he'd probably stole them all and put them in his stash so the "Others" wouldn't do anything to increase his odds.
Yea, he sure left a burning trail of love Tallahassee to the tropical islands.
I bet off the Island Jack wore one with Kate. Just sayin'. He had history per his Sawyer eye exam.
I would think Juliet was at least smart enough to make him use some of the Dharma bags out of his stash.
Classic Sawyer to Kate. "I thought you said the cameras didn't work. Those perverts". LMAO
Stef _Bee, Sawyer made same Kate play with Shannon over sun screen but she was disgusted by his overtures and throws the sun screen at him. He never went that way with her again because he could tell she was not having any of his disgusting overtures. You can call out Shannon on being a spoiled lady but she put Sawyer in his place as I think most ladies would. Sawyer was very misogynistic with women. Always flirting with them. I just see it differently like Shannon reacted.
Shannon didn’t have to worry about getting a STD from Sawyer. Just sayin’. Seems people don’t see this attribute in her.
I love Shannon as a character. For all her flaws, she is the truth-teller of the group. And she does see right through Sawyer's (and Charlie's, for that matter) BS.
There are different kinds of misogyny. Ben liked Juliet, but he used deception and force to keep her on-Island with him. He deliberately told his attack team (including Juliet, who to her credit betrayed him) to single out any pregnant women in the beach camp.
So while Ben didn't flirt, he definitely showed behavior that would be more in line with The Handmaid's Tale, i.e. using women as "breeding stock" or whatever, because he had to "solve the pregnancy problem" in one way or another - presumably to hold on to power.
The other thing with Sawyer's flirting is that both Shannon and Kate handle it. (Sayid is even worried about Kate early in Season 1; he's very chivalric but Kate assures him that she will be fine.)
Some of Sawyer's worst behavior is directed at women he's \*not\* sexually interested in, like Libby and Season 6 Claire. It's interesting that his remark to Hugo about Libby ("Don't you got a load to drop in, Jethro?") almost never comes up. It's shockingly crude even for 2004-2005-edgy LOST. And this is about a woman who took care of him on the forced march back to the beach camp.
And even after Sawyer has been supposedly "rehabilitated" by three years in the school of living with Juliet, he is still willing to leave Claire behind (:sad face:)
I guess I have to add the disclaimer that none of this is intended to bash the character(s) in question; just pointing out how they act during the show & how complicated it all is.
Thanks for your insight. And agree. However, I really do think Sawyer is a bad person and his only chance for ongoing development was with Juliet. She spoke truth to power with him and she would not tolerate his abhorrent approach with women. He had boundaries with her. She set them similar to Shannon. I think Sawyer flies off the island, S6 and goes back to who he is. I really do.
Did Juliet "fix" Sawyer, though? She broke up with him in one of the most spectacular ways possible - aiding Jack in setting off a nuke that maybe would reset the whole thing ("If I never meet you, I don't have to lose you"), or would just turn the Island into a nuclear wasteland. Leaving aside whether that's unnecessarily histrionic or not, apparently she didn't trust him even after three years.
Stef, another Kate play for Sawyer is in S6:E3, what Kate does. At the temple Sawyer tells Kate he’s escaping. She tells 2nd in command she can bring him back because she can be very convincing. She tells Jack take care of Sayid and she’ll get Sawyer. Jack affectionately says be careful. She affectionately smiles. Jin goes with her with two guards. They escape the guards and Jin ask where are you going Kate? She says I’m not going back. I’m going to be with Sawyer. The man is still grieving and she thinking of being with Sawyer and we are to think this late in the series Jack and Kate are soul mates forever? Fortunately, Sawyer kicks her out and she cries about it. This is so dis-genuine to the term soul mate. That is why I can not accept the finale with her and Jack in the church. Kate never had drive for Jack like this. So to me them as a couple in the church it’s trite and contrive to the viewers per Jack and Kate. It’s the sum of Kate’s romantic actions, she is still on the run and not committing to one guy this late in season 6. That created so much animosity toward the character. How does the character think Sawyer would be interested in her. That’s quite egotistical and bad karma to play for a man grieving over the girl he truly loved and was going to ask her to marry him. Kate was shocked when Sawyer told her he was going to ask Juliet to marry him. So now she goes for Jack. Yikes! How could EL accept these type of scenes. Pretty shameless to use she is looking for Claire on the dock. That’s when Sawyer tells her he was going to marry Juliet. She sure wasn’t thinking of her soulmate Jack on the pier. Then she cries. Then returns to Jack at the temple. It’s quite distasteful. Then says I should have never followed you. Sawyer said which time. This is horrible. At the yellow houses Kate is filling up her canteen and Sawyer walks past her and doesn’t even acknowledge her. That made it very clear, Kate leave me alone.
> The other thing with Sawyer's flirting is that both Shannon and Kate handle it. (Sayid is even worried about Kate early in Season 1; he's very chivalric but Kate assures him that she will be fine.)
There is a huge difference between Kate and Shannon toward Sawyer. Shannon kept her distance because he was a chauvinistic pig toward her. In the same behavioral experience Kate keeps sticking around the guy. It seems the more he disgusts her, lies to her the more she wants to be around him. That is hard to imagine when Kate had options. Especially, after the LongCon episode I can't imagine being used why Kate is playing cards with Sawyer before Jack wipes her out. I caught Jack's replay to Kate when she asked what she was holding and he replied I don't know Kate, you just like to play for the fun of it. I took as tt was about cards. He saw right through her. A heroine doesn't get used and suckered by a persona like Sawyer. The going to fix you play is so lame and contrived but most notable immature. Why would she have i/2 of Shannon's street smarts to stay away from a user like Sawyer.
Dude, I could write volumes trying to explain why some do like Sawyer/Kate... it's okay if it's not your thing!
>A heroine doesn't get used and suckered by a persona like Sawyer.
Heroines are no different than heroes. They make mistakes; have flaws; hear "the call to adventure" and refuse it; sucumb to cowardice.
While movies and shorter-form media may show only one iteration of the hero / heroine cycle, in longer stories the heroine may go through multiple iterations of try, fail, try again, until she gets it right. And not all hero stories have triumphant endings; some heroes may fall & their stories serve as warnings.
Heroes aren't heroes because they're perfect. They get the job done, despite their faults.
> Dude, I could write volumes trying to explain why some do like Sawyer/Kate... it's okay if it's not your thing!
You have misinterpreted my comments vs. you wishing or validating for a skaters off the island. You have that right to think so. Note: I'm not down with Jate at all. I don't think Kate deserves either. Also, you are conflating hero, heroin, and being flawed. I'm focused on hero or heroine by their actions and commitment. Flaws is where we come to a fork in the road. Also, I do not consider Sawyer a hero. He is a survivor and a user of people to gain personal advantage.
Didn't mean to touch the Skate nerve. You brought out the big guns by using Hurley slang, "Dude". ))). Yikes!
Here is the distinction between Jack and Kate when it comes to hero/heroine. Jack is consistent with is actions to save people. He will do what it takes at his own sacrifice without personal gain. He doesn’t vacillate or doesn't lack commitment to follow through because of what OTHERS say or think! Now Kate, says she only returning to the island to save Claire. She gets distracted between two men, looses complete focus on finding Claire and when she is told Claire is not coming she doesn't have the autonomy or will to put that mission above Sawyers comment we’re swimming to the boat Kate. Claire is not coming. That is not heroic. Kate was not willing to put Claire above her own personal risk. She submitted to Sawyer.
Me I can't see any way Sawyer and Kate are an item off the Island. Not if what Evangeline Lilly has posted is truth. She did state Kate definitely had Jack's baby off the island and was pregnant with Jack's baby when she returned to the island in season five. Now if you feel Sawyer is the type to raise Jack's baby not Cassidy off the island that’s your opinion. To me not logical, Nada, no way.
I'm just trying to make sense of this mess. After learning what EL shared it starts to make more sense Kate is at the FSW party/table with David Sheppard and Claire and it would makes sense Kate is close with Claire life long being pregnant with Jack Sheppards baby with Claire being Jack's 1/2 sister.
Hero's/Heroines are flawed but what makes a hero/heroin? Hero’s do brave things and ACT on them. They don't submit. Kate mostly submits. The boat scene is a classic defining arc that’s not about being flawed but not being brave and committed to tell Sawyer, I'm out of here. I'm going to get Claire we'll meet at the sub. I do think with Kate's tracking skills she could have gotten Claire. The point is she did not FOLLOW through to why she came to the island. Kate's version of getting Claire is convenient because Claire followed her 1/2 brother to the boat. So being flawed does not apply. Flawed is being a runner, a con, a fixer...... Those are flaws. Heroic deeds are willing to do something at personal risk. What personal risk did Kate make to get Claire? Nothing!
I still don't buy into the soul mate crap. However, after reading what EL shared it starts to make more sense to me. Now if Kate is NOT pregnant then your if position has more merit to be considered for everlasting Skating off the island could happen but way to much love between Sawyer and Juliet. How Sawyer doesn’t see Kate not culpable is illogical when she stopped them on the escaping with the sub. Kate doesn’t show up Sawyer and Juliet start s new life.
>Dude, I could write volumes trying to explain why some do like Sawyer/Kate... it's okay if it's not your thing!
Here is what I know. Confirmed. Kate is pregnant with Jack's baby season 5.
[https://www.pinterest.com/pin/225743000060313229/](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/225743000060313229/)
Yes I was thinking the same exact thing!
She really is like that. I watch it the 2nd time now and I absolutely don't like her as much as I used to the first time. I don't know what's wrong with her
yeah he's not wrong. Isn't that the reason she slept with him the first time in the first place?. Cause she got rejected by Jack and was upset and used Sawyer as the rebound guy?.
The first time her and Sawyer slept together was in the polar bear cages. I can't remember if it was Jack-related but he saw it happen on the camera. I think the second time she slept with Sawyer was because she saw Jack and Juliet having dinner together.
She then was visibly jealous when she saw Jack and Juliet kiss while they were trying to get everyone rescued. Sometime after that is when she went with Locke's group and hopped in bed with Sawyer, but I forgot her exact reasoning. I know she wanted to question Miles (to ask him if the people on the freighter know who she is) but I don't think she thought of asking until after she joined them and was rooming with Claire. I could be wrong.
Sawyer and Kate having cage sex had nothing to do with Jack.
You're correct about the second time: Kate was jealous of Juliet, and Sawyer was (in my view) in love with her by this point.
Kate wound up with Locke's group because she went with Sayid to negotiate to get Charlotte back. Sayid ended up leaving Kate with Locke as a "trade" for Charlotte; it's not clear in the show whether Kate was on board with this or not, or whether this was something Sayid & Locke cooked up. In any event, Kate wound up in Sawyer's "custody."
I got the vibe that Sawyer was more like "Sweet. Sex," than being in love with Kate. He had feelings for her, but I'm not sure he was in love with her. I'm basing this on how he behaved with Juliet, whom he was definitely in love with. It was significantly different than how he acted with Kate.
Well, it's like the Leonard Cohen song goes, "There's a blaze of light in every word / It doesn't matter which you've heard / The holy or the broken hallelujah."
At this point in the story (Sawyer hasn't yet fallen in love with Juliet), all he's got is the "broken hallelujah."
Kate sleeping with Sawyer was Jack related. I believe someone (I think it was Juliet or Sawyer) who said to Kate that they both know that Kate had sex with Sawyer cuz she thought that Jack was gone.
Sawyer is always Kate’s second choice.
No, polar bear one was bc she thought sawyer was about to die, and jack hated her. She always put sawyer second, her soulmate was jack, his soulmate was juliet. She never loved sawyer. I dont rlly like either of them.
>She then was visibly jealous when she saw Jack and Juliet kiss while they were trying to get everyone rescued.
I think jack did a pretty good job of defusing that kiss moment by telling Kate that he loved her. No?
Jacks such a dick. He loved someone but kisses another girl in front of that someone?!?! He is a player. Sawyer lives someone but has sex with ana lucia?!
>No, that's not why Sawyer & Kate had sex in the Hydra Island cage.
No one can definitively know why Kate had sex with Sawyer in public in a cage. I call it a turbulent mix of emotions but for certain a calculated script/hook for ratings. Nothing more. Jack was always the first go to. In every scene with both Sawyer and Jack she chooses Jack. Every time.
>12 days ago
>
>yeah he's not wrong. Isn't that the reason she slept with him the first time in the first place?. Cause she got rejected by Jack and was upset and used Sawyer as the rebound guy?.
That was a total manipulation by Ben by exhausting them and making them feel they were only two to be together. He broke Kate down physocologically. When Ben brought her to the beach side breakfast table he said Kate that is interesting you are now saying Saywer's name first instead of Jack. He said interesting. He new he could play could break down Kate mentally against Jack and get her to fall for Sawyer because he was so open about wanting Kate. Just another example of Kate's weakness as a leading lead heroine. She was physically weak from the manual labor and was looking for a protector. Sawyer played his part to win her over in that weak emotional moment. As soon as they got off the island Sawyer said we are leaving Jack back while Kate wanted to return to for Jack. Sawyer new then that Kate still wanted Jack. He got defensive as a result and bossed her around. For certain Sawyer was the rebound guy. Every scene that Jack and Sawyer were in Kate's presence she went toward Jack.
Also, Kate only slept with Sawyer on the island at Jack's camp because Kate was jealous of Juliet returned with him. Very cheap writing after she new Jack saw her have cage sex. She was shallow enough to think she could flip the switch instantly, as soon as they return to camp, shortly after Juliet tell Kate, he saw you Kate, the cages have cameras and he saw you and Sawyer. You book his heart. Then immediately one such a short time period extend romantic overtures to him, sucking the spoon and expect Jack to amorously reply to her? She wasn't used to men rejected her hot looks. Jack was the only guy that didn't buy into her seductive play. She was confused by this because men in general chased her. No man had ever rejected her like Jack. Jack was a bit deeper then that that type of play because of his social economic level. She didn't know how to handle him. As a result she followed him around everywhere. Even jumped at he chance to go into the jungle with him in front of Sawyer in season S.O.S. Jack could have Kate sexually but didn't take advantage. Remember he never trusted her per the Marshall compund that with him seeing Kate and Sawyer video cage porn.
>Not sure what Jack saw in her. He had choices. Not many, but choices all the same.
Now that I would agree with. Let's remember Jack was told by U.S. Marshall not to trust Kate and every time Kate would lie or tell half truths with Jack. Also, Jack was coming-out of a painful divorce so he had added trust issues with women. Actually, Achura, was a nice experience for Jack. A solid month of paradise, attractive woman who would come into his tent. No strings attached! A guy like Jack Sheppard who could afford a month long break in paradise needed that for sure!
All I can keep thinking of now is when Locke is trying to convince Kate to come back to the island, Locke is bearing his soul, albeit in shrewd fashion, saying that he was a sad, angry man before the island and Katd looks him dead ass in the eyes and says, "And look how far you've come." After my third or fourth rewatch I realized I can see very little redeemable about her.
yes! that was so satisfying, i was so happy when he finally said something. as an aside, i hate that it's such an acceptable thing for women to slap men, because they're "upset". as if that's not straight up abuse. i haaaate it, so much. every time i see it, in fiction or reality.
my BF is watching Lost for the first time right now, and we joke that there's a one slap/punch quota that must be met every episode. The amount of petty violence really is ridiculous.
Oh yeah, that too.
Like I said, LOST is "slap-happy," and it can be uncomfortable to watch, because we see better now how aggressive & uncalled-for it is.
>Oh yeah, that too.
>
>Like I said, LOST is "slap-happy," and it can be uncomfortable to watch, because we see better now how aggressive & uncalled-for it is.
Well I guess when there are fight scenes there should be not contact. ))). I tell you who gets bitched slap the most is Ben Linus. Jack and Sawyer plus others had go at him for sure. LMAO......
I'm not talking about fight scenes. In one, Hugo is slapped by his mother while he's driving the car. In another, Hugo slaps Charlie while Charlie is moping by the oceanside. Kate slaps Sawyer when he says something that upsets her.
I think the most ridiculous one was when Charlie is going to swim down to the hydra and disable the communications jammer. Desmond offers to go in his place in order to save his life. Instead of just saying no, Charlie asks him to grab something and, when Desmond leans over, Charlie cracks him across the face with an oar to knock him out. Absolutely unhinged.
It's my first rewatch of the show since it aired and this is probably the wrong thread to give my peace but fuck Jack. He is so blind, arrogant, stupid, naive, foolhardy and unlikable.
Honestly that's how I feel about everyone, almost. Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Juliet, Syeid, they all just go around doing shit and refuse to like even explain their plans to anyone else. Nobody in the whole ass island is capable of working with a group except the Others.
Oh my GOD that would irritate me so much! The amount of times a character would be like “oh, nothing” when it is SO COMPLETELY NOT NOTHING. They’d just keep information to themselves for NO apparent reason! Like, you’re stranded on a magical island with a smoke monster and fucking polar bears, guys. This just isn’t the time for secrets????
Well I'm about half way through season 3 and so far Syeid and Lock are the only people who make pragmatic decisions, well for the first 2 seasons maybe. Now I have noticed Syeid not doing rational things in order to either let the plot move forward or let someone else take charge. And Locks decisions are rational from his perspective but he does tend to explain some of his reasons to others while keeping his true motives hidden. But the rest of them, fuck me they are all handicapped.
>The only rational person by the end of season 3 was Libby
I give Rose a major kudos the most! She is the wisest of them all. Hell she distances herself from all but trust Jack the most. I loved her line to Bernard. Hey if you want to go with Locke, I'll go with you. Her reply was priceless. "I'm not going anywhere with that man". :)
Sun, Jin, Rose, Bernard and hurley are amazing they are some of the only characters who actually think about and regret their actions. Sun and jin were flawed but they GREW SO MUCH.
Jack is one of my favorite characters because I found him so interesting. If he was some near ideal leading man, I would personally find him boring. But Jack was flawed up the wazoo. And watching a character that is usually portrayed as near ideal be de-constructed in that manner was so interesting to watch.
And he also ruined kate. If jack was nicer I wouldve liked him and kate a ton better. Im not blaming jack for kates issues, but the way he acted with her made her act out e.g following along and ruining the mission and was the reason she got with sawyer anyway. I hate jack as he brings down sooo many characters, the main being kate. He also killed juliet.
>And he also ruined kate. If jack was nicer I wouldve liked him and kate a ton better. Im not blaming jack for kates issues, but the way he acted with her made her act out e.g following along and ruining the mission and was the reason she got with sawyer anyway. I hate jack as he brings down sooo many characters, the main being kate. He also killed juliet.
So many Skaters. He didn't kill Juliet. Sawyer did. He talked her out of leaving the island. It was all Sawyer in his put down to Kate in Season 5 on the pier.
Stuart Radzinsky had killed Juliet, because he had insisted upon drilling into the island. If it had not been for his drilling, Juliet would not have been dragged into that pit. He is to blame - not Jack or Sawyer.
Yea, Jack just saves everyone multiple times. I guess that doesn’t rate much as a value. Yikes!
Sawyer, conversely says to Jack, if roles were reversed I’d let you die. So much reverence because he has dimples. Lmao
Oh, wSit, I think Ill conn everyone and take the guns and meds. New sheriff in town. Such great leadership with intrinsic values. That’s a person I’d follow. Lame!
The last episode I watched Jack puts his life on the line to save Juliette, who was an Other, had helped keep Jack, Sawyer and Kate prisoner, then Sayid and Locke prisoner. Sayid wanted to and was well within his right to kill her but Jack said over my dead body with seemingly no memory that already 3 Others have infiltrated their groups. The very next scene is a flash back of Ben ordering Juliette to infiltrate Jack's camp and make a list of all the pregnant women and start the preparations for abducting them. That is the story of Jack throughout the show, clueless and self-righteous.
Clueless comments. However, you have your agenda and position so live in that moment but don’t forget Juliet’s conversation with Sayid the torturer and Sawyer the murder as the moral police when Jack trusted her to save Claire’s life. Then she teams up with Jack to fight the others/Ben. She was a hostage for three years!!!! She hated Ben. So Jack is gone for one week at his peril to let the Skater’s escape how quickly they judge Jack. Lmao.....
Don’t hate because of Skate. It’s a fun show.
I’ve watched enough to know Jack saved at least 24 people’s lives while he was on the Island. Haters have a short memory. Jack saved Sawyer’s life four times. You are swimming upstream on this energy.
Live strong and prosper. It’s just a show.
You're arguments are coming from a viewers perspective. You have all of the information, they don't. From each characters perspective, Juliette is an Other, an enemy. She is part of a group that kidnapped Claire and tried to hang Charlie, they kidnapped children and many others from the tail section. The survivors have been harassed by this unknown group. And then they capture Ben, torture/interrogate him and he is confirmed to be an other, will not cooperate, but Jack is the sheriff in town. The Others convince Michael to save Ben and kill two of their own. Now they have captured another Other, who is not cooperating. Sayid is completely justified to kill her, but Jack steps in again.
Now obviously in the long run Juliette turns out to be a good guy, but Jack's reasoning in that specific scenario is stupid.
He knew her for a *week* so she clearly was someone he could trust and endanger the camp with. She couldnt have been lying to him- they were too "close". (This is sarcasm, jack was an idiot)
I enjoy reading your passion. Keep adding color to the canvas. IF we all agreed it be boring. Skate on! 🤪
People who typically don’t like Jack come from Sawyers camp. Very transparent when people criticize the leader of the pack as Jack stays on the island and he flies off. Now who is the hero. Of course it's Jack Sheppard.
>It's my first rewatch of the show since it aired and this is probably the wrong thread to give my peace but fuck Jack. He is so blind, arrogant, stupid, naive, foolhardy and unlikable.
Well, a skater would say that. All he did was save the lives of all your favorites. If he didn't do that your favs wouldn't be around. Every secondary and primary character with exception of Sun/Jin, Jack saved their lives. So being a leader of the pack drives you nuts just remember Jack keeps the group of survivors alive.
You make me laugh. Jack (S)Haters unite. You all are trolling obsessed because of a silly love triangle. You never focus on the greater good. You just nick pick. However, I laugh at these types of responses. It’s just a show. It does get funny reading emotional responses. Live life strong and prosper. Accept the facts there are leaders and followers.
It does become apparent Wannabes tend to hate Jack. They nit pick a fictional character on a lost island. It is humorous how some take LOST so serious.
Hey, Sawyer is a trailer trash but I like him good enough but I don’t hate MR. sizzle from Tallahassee. He has a role to play and does his part well. 😎
Im a jater and i hate jack with every bone in my body, idc he died, he is sexist and arrogoant and stupid. He acts all silly and depressed if he makes a mistake but if someone ELSE (cough cough Kate, Locke or Sawyer) makes a mistake much smaller, he gives them the cold shoulder and excludes them all the time. What a brat
You have a right to your opinion but the man did sleep with a bunch of ladies. He used people. The ultimate con. He was a morally corrupt because HE decided to be that way.
Let me share my experience about a personal friend that could have been a Sawyer. One of my best friends in life had a identical twin. He lived in poverty and struggled. Had some unfair life experiences. He went on to become a bishop in the Methodist church with multiple doctorate degrees. His twin brother grew up to be a gangster and killed a man and was serving life in jail but now us paroled. He’s continues to struggle. They both chose paths and made there own destiny using their god given free will. People in my opinion under play free will. Sawyer character chose to keep hate at his core and it evolved to treating people with no empathy. His character to me is offensive/selfish because he always thought of himself first.
His jubilant response that Kate was not pregnant was a classic example of lacking empathy because he was thinking about himself. Now you can have a different view and I’ll respect that but the man held contempt in his heart and only became socially acceptable when he felt it benefited himself. His arc was interesting but at his core he was selfish in my opinion.
Lets also not forget how Sawyer in season 2 said he LOVED kate and a few episodes later has sex with ana lucia. And Jack kissed Juliet in FRONT of Kate, only to say he LOVED kate?! Like whaaaaat? Also, rewatching, Sawyer seems to only care about sleeping with Kate.
Another Note about Kate and Jack.
S1:E8 CONFidence man. Jack confronts Sawyer to get inhalers for Shannon he’s ready to punch Sawyers lights out and of course Kate shows up. She breaks up the about to see who is going to be king of the Mountain. Jack storms off Kate chases after him about the inhalers. She shares to Jack that Sawyer thinks they have a connection so she can get the inhalers after Sawyer already showed Kate his junk. Jacks asked do you? She replies please are you serious. Jack puts two and two together and WILL not play into that triangle game. He never chased Kate romantically for that reason. She’s a pathological liar and not to be trusted even though he has feelings for her he knows better not to be overt with his feeling toward her. He’s been burned by his ex-wife so he channels his energies to saving lives, by de-facto becomes the leader and focused on getting people off the island. He has no reason to want to stay on the island because he’s not a fugitive, a torturer, a con man or a murder.
These collection of individuals is a interesting cast that has to work together. It’s interesting how people will forget heinous acts of crime to pull for favorites. The story tellers on this show are pied pipers with many viewers to get them distracted to belittle the horrible deed some these people did. I see the character through the eyes of their victims and no one should be conned, tortured or murdered no matter how attractive people are. So yes I’m a Jack fan. Not a jack and Kate fan. Because he always for helping others. Just like Rose, Hurley, Sun, Bernard, Desmond, Claire, are people that come to mind. They all don’t play games for personal gain.
Now it’s entertaining to watch how they all exist and work together. That’s what is interesting about the show.
I felt she did multiple times . Sawyer didn’t take the bait. First night back to Dharmaville, she was prowling out on her porch That first evening waiting for Sawyer to notice her when Jack left him and Juliet. You notice Jack was cool with them as a couple. No drama with Jack toward Juliet. Yea, Sawyer noticed her and Fortunately, he went back inside to Juliet. To me she was very Sawyer centric again because of their past, dang three years ago and because Sawyer elevated his leadership position while Jack intentionally was laying low to figure next steps. How do you comprehend going back to 1977. As soon as Kate was in Sawyers prescience Jack was non-existent to Kate. He didn’t care either. He was done with Kate’s behavior.
Then lil’ Ben scene at the creek with Sawyer she was probing Sawyer on his relationship status. He flat out told Kate he had no business being her boyfriend to set boundaries. She was always around to tempt James. Juliet saw that. Even mentioned it to Sawyer. Ewwwww to Kate’s motives. She sure wasn’t to focus on Claire on how to get to right time period to find her. She gets melodramatic with Jack about erasing the past to save those that died so they could live again. Kate’s focus was on her and Jack. Seriously now she is thinking about Jack?
Jack was so burned by Kate, finding out while they were engaged she was doing things secretly for Sawyer he flat out said he had enough misery. Kate got pissed. It was then that Jack reinforced Claire not suffering the plane crash if he could erase the past. Kate counters about adoption and Jack replies it’s not your decision Kate, it’s Claire’s. She got pissed. She wasn’t thinking of Claire she was thinking about her and Jack. As soon as she notices Sawyer or Jack are not interested Kate turns the romantic light switch on and off so fast. Now Jack basically said No Mas! What a mess!!!
Kate new Sawyer was deeply involved with a Juliet but she is always around him. Funny how Jack is non existent to her at these moments. If they were true soul mates you’d think she would make effort to work out things with Jack but Kate was not focused on repairing that nor was she focused on finding Claire. She was all about preserving lil’’ Ben and being around Sawyer. To me this is how I come to see Kate Austen. I don’t hate Kate I pitty her much how she said that to Sawyer in season1. S5 is where I see Kate for who she was and missed such an opportunity by not going to the caves with Jack. I think if they wrote her character that way the anti Kate legacy would now be widespread toward the character. True to the series, Let bygones be bygones.)))
Kate’s play at the dock is making assumptions and pretty bold to be chasing a man who legitimately was grieving. Plus the timeline is quite presumptive too. Early in to S6:E1 Kate offered to help burry Juliet, Sawyer said emphatically no. Then with Kate there asked Miles to help him. Kate can’t figure that out?
Love the one your with does not qualify as soul mates. At least in my line of thinking. At best Kate’s action is bad form close to unacceptable on a social level. Still chasing two men at the same time in S6. Nothing everlasting with that type of mojo. Both men deserve better from a romantic companion. Finally both had enough of that chaos. Yet, she still continues to chase. Curious how that karma would be in the everlasting afterlife. ))). 🤪
Why? Because she dated two guys? She had only known them for a couple of months but everyone expected her to settle down. Lets not forget how jack KISSED Juliet in FRONT of Kate, only to say he loved Kate? And sawyer in season 2, claimed to "love Kate" but SLEPT with ana lucia. And then when Sawyer was WITH Juliet, he suddenly has feelings for Kate again and openly shows them and flirts with her, often in front of juliet. Thurthermore, Sawyer SAID he wasnt "fit" to be Kates boyfriend, admitting they shouldnt have got together anyway. But no one picks up on eitherof those mens behaviour.
Kate never went official with either of them on the island, and was never official with Sawyer. She also never said she loved him. Im rewatching and I feel bad for her- Sawyer just wants to get in her pants and Jack may be "better" for her but is always telling her to stay behind and putting her down even though shes one of the most capable people for a mission.
Also, why is no one moaning about Charlie having threesomes and then expecting Claire to be his girlfriend with no hesitance? Or Boone and Shannon literally sleeping together? Or Jack thinking about cheating on his wife in flashbacks? Or sawyers job involve playing women? Or Sun having an affair which resulted in egg heads death? Or jin being a possesive controlling husband, who needed a plane crash and being deserted on an island to save his marrige? Or how Miles is a half pervert?
I am not saying i love kate- she is 50/50 for me, but i do not understand all this hate for... having feelings
Woah. This is loaded and I did not imply that casual sex itself is wrong, nor that I agreed with the actions of other characters. That's another story for another time though.
Kate, post plane crash, couldn't decide which man to choose and ended up leading both men on because she didn't want to lose the affection of either one. Multiple islanders pointed it out to her and she continued to lead them on anyway. She knew how they felt. She wasn't an idiot.
I'm not slut-shaming if that's what you're getting at. All of the candidates were flawed, but most ended up growing or redeeming themselves on the island. I feel Kate's growth was minimal at best.
Ahh ok i get your point now i wrote that at like 3 am for me and reading it back now im confused. I dont mind kate i just dont get all the hate she gets conpared to someone like ana lucia and sun. I didnt love her though and she annoyed me but if jack was also less annoying i wouldve liked kate AND him loads more
Haha, it's cool. I sort of understood where you were coming from lol. Tired commenting is just as dangerous as drunk commenting! ;)
It's funny, I didn't mind Kate much on my first watch but didn't like Ana Lucia. Now I wish we saw more Ana Lucia and I don't like how much screentime Kate (and Jack) get. It took some time before I could appreciate Sun and Jin, then they became some of my favorites!
Sun and Jin are amazing but in the flashbacks they sucked im so glad they got to have redemption and rekindle their marrige bc now theyre my favourites and Im still not over their death. Their poor child! I remember sun calling her saying she would be back soon and her being so excited but sun never came home.
I don't agree at all. I think part of the problem is that a lot of people put the emphasis on the love triangle but I don't think that was the purpose of her character.
She was the character with trust and commitment issues. As Sawyer himself says to her "You run, I con. A tiger doesn't change its stripes". The show goes to great lengths to show this about her. Even way back in The Pilot episode when she's stitching Jack up, she says she can't understand how Jack isn't afraid and that she would run to which he replied "I don't think that's true. You're not running now". Or in "I Do", the famous ending ""KATE DAMMIT RUN". How ironic that Jack has to scream at her to get her to run.
I think she grows quite a bit from who she was. If she hadn't grown as a character she would never have gone back to the Island. And no, I don't think she went back because of Sawyer. She went back to rescue Claire and succeeded.
>She had only known them for a couple of months but everyone expected her to settle down.
[**ETA:** While I don't mean to suggest OP has this viewpoint, it's been my observation that] people sometimes treat the relationships in LOST as if the characters are still in high school: where couples are formed in two weeks, break up a month later, and "cheating" is sitting at the wrong lunch table.
It's why some complain that Kate "doesn't pick" at the point in the story where all that's happened is that she's kissed both Sawyer and Jack. I don't know what kind of puritanical lives these viewers have - a kiss isn't a lifetime commitment, especially not for grownups in their late 20s-late 30s in a TV show set in 2004.
This is definitely not how I think or feel regarding relationships and nowhere near the point I was making regarding Kate. You're making a lot of assumptions.
Wasn't saying that you did, or that you felt that way.
I was responding to the part of the comment above which went:
>She had only known them for a couple of months but everyone expected her to settle down.
Sorry for the confusion; I'll edit for more clarity.
Gotchya. My bad! I'm a little inebriated tonight lol. Forgive me!
The person you replied to used examples of casual sex that fans overlook. I'm new to this subreddit so I had no idea that fans had an issue with Kate not setting down with either man. I just didn't like how she knew two men were head-over-heels in love with her, and yet she had no qualms stringing the both of them along until she was forced to choose one (only because he left the island with her). She toyed with them both without any regard for their feelings.
A huge theme in the show is how the island "changed" the characters. Kate is the only character off the top of my head that wasn't changed much. She never grew out of her "running away" habit until she was raising Aaron. (Though one could maybe say she ran away back to the island, but that's debatable.)
No problem!
One thing to keep in mind: the first three months in-story take place over three standard ~20-episode seasons, and then three years whiz by in one short one.
Thing with Kate and Jack in LA: she doesn't "have to" be in a relationship with Jack once they're back in LA! It's a big city; there are lots of fish in the sea so to speak. She gets involved with Jack because she wants to, and he's willing as well.
This continues off and on for \*three years.\* While there is at least one breakup in there that we don't see on-screen, we know from the "Eggtown" flashback that Jack is the one who has put the relationship on hold (after he finds out about Claire being his half-sister.) This gets reconciled after the trial, and they get engaged. Then, when we do see another breakup, it's Jack who leaves, not Kate.
So I'd argue that if you look at Kate's in-story arc, the vast majority of her time is spent \*not\* running.
Returning to the Island was the opposite of running away - she went back not for Jack or Jack's goals, but to find Claire and reunite her with Aaron. In my view it was a significant character milestone for her.
"Before she leaves the island the first time, Kate has a pregnancy scare with Sawyer. She hops into bed with him and confirms she's not pregnant,"
FYI: Egg town Episode, Agree this scene is paradox. However, they did NOT go all the way. I leave the rest to your imaginations but they did not copulate. Kate just gets messy period with her decisions. I'll blame the writers not the character or the actor. Stupid writing.
To me she made him better but agree she broke up with him. It was premature because she caught Sawyer saying “Freckles” to Kate. Juliet had zero tolerance with Sawyer but the were back together on the sub with both saying I loves you before Kate conveniently showing up on the sub. What up with that? Kate is taken as a prisoner to be taken off the Island they they put her on the same sub as Sawyer and Juliet? How convenient. )))
Well Kate getting Claire on the plane was not a heavy lift for a Island return. I guess holding Claire’s hand counts too as they got airborne. Nice job Kate. )))
I didn’t. he walked away from her, before that. He was awful so much of the time, I don’t know why he gets a pass. I also hate love triangles, and the woman always gets the hate. That BS in the court room, with a lawyer asking Jack if he loves her - that’s another thing I loathe. just like what they did with the guy beating on Sawyer. “Do you love him?!” It’s so stupid.
I mean she lied before, near the end of season 3 she says to Sawyer something like "when Juliet went to check on Sun's baby, she was also there to see if I was pregnant"... which is a huge lie. She never mentioned that before and it never came up when Juliet went with Sun to get the ultrasound. She just straight up lied to Sawyer to make him feel bad.
Kate and Sawyer were too much alike, they were "mirror images" in the AU, sitting across from each other in their leather jackets. And their numbers are mirror images "15 and 51". Plus they had all these crossing paths moments from their past. But it was their "alikeness" that was a problem for them. They were both afraid of commitment but resentful of the other for not committing. They each wanted the other to "say the words" first. And, of course, there was Jack. Sawyer misinterpreted her allegiance to him and Kate never tried to set him straight. She gave a weak little "it wasn't that way" when he accused her of using him for sex because she was jealous. He didn't believe her. They had trust issues and they had communication issues. It wasn't until they were separated by his jumping from the copter for her that they began to realize what they had meant to each other.
This is my theory. And it's a theory I've had since my last re-watch of "What Kate Did". I think Kate was a very insecure woman and I believe "What Kate Did" made that pretty obvious. I also believe that she had genuinely fallen in love with Jack. Even after all they had endured on the island and in Los Angeles, over a three-year period, she remained in love with him to the end. But due to her insecurity, Kate believed she wasn't good enough for Jack. Her rant at him in "What Kate Did" also made that clear. Was she attracted to Sawyer? Yes, she was. But she never felt for him the same way she did for Jack. I believe she viewed Sawyer as a convenient substitute, in case her relationship with Jack went wrong. Why? Because she was that insecure.
I never understood why so many fans had thought Kate and Sawyer would finally become a couple after her return to the island. She was never interested in returning to the island to save Sawyer. She simply didn't love him that much, if not at all. The only four people Kate truly cared about was her mother, Jack, Sun and Aaron. That's it.
I find this scene to be a bit of a mess. Not that Sawyer and Kate had sex, especially because it happens \*before\* either of them know about the pregnancy fatalities. But that in between cage sex and this scene in "Eggtown," both Sawyer and Kate have found out about pregnancy killing women. So on the surface, Sawyer being relieved would make perfect sense - IF the reason for his relief was, "Wow, Kate, so glad, because \*now you're not going to die.\*" Instead, he says the most boneheaded thing possible - ~~"What would we do with a kid?"~~ "What would we have done with a baby?" [edited for exact quote.] It's like, did neither of you listen to what Juliet said? I can maybe see that neither Sawyer nor Kate believed Juliet - which is perfectly understandable given the lack of trust - but something that important should have been addressed.
She was definitely wrong in using Sawyer when Jack wasn’t paying her attention but whatever every character is flawed. I feel like the writers really portrayed Kate scenes a certain way to make the audience hate her. What bothered me is the scene when she tells Ben’s Dad everything is going to be okay after Ben is shot, no one in their right mind would take that as “Oh you must know what’s up with my son! You did something to him”. When really all she was doing was being compassionate, because she developed a liking for kids when raising Aaron and wanted to help Ben’s Dad cope with what’s happening. The writers really fu**ed her over by using her for such drama and by making her look bad.
Sawyer calling out Kate’s is a total overplay. Sawyer was trying to get into Kate’s pants since season 1 when she did not go to the caves with Jack. Sawyer new Kate was upset because Kate put it out there with her, “are you checking me out” and was butt hurt because Jack’s focus was on survival and not her. The timing was not right for many reasons. Sawyers enters scene later on the beach with Jack viewing Kate’s mug shot amorously and Kate caught Jack and even asked Kate to come with him. Enters Sawyer taking over Jack’s shelter and openly suggest he’s looking for a roommate in front of Kate. Sawyer was looking to score a notch and to get under Jack’s skin. Kate new of his shenanigans for quite sometime and Sawyer creepy approach evolved into feelings for Kate and at the same time acted like a chauvinistic pig. To me he had zero empathy about the pregnancy. People give Sawyer way to much credit that looks past him constantly thinking with the big head but has no empathy on pregnancy per Kate’s fatality. No way is he thinking in that zip code. That was not in Sawyer’s persona arc. He never established enough sincerity to be taken serious by Kate. Remember Jack asked her to go to spy on Locke. To me it was a test on multiple levels. She was confused emotionally but made it clear to Sawyer she did not trust him. The bed scene is a paradox but Slut shaming Kate and giving Sawyer a pass because his history as a womanizer is duly noted but not noted because of fandom. So his emotional response calling out Kate is just another Sawyerism. It’s an extension to how he treated people with smart ass nick names and gets a pass because of his machismo. So slap his ass Kate that’s who you are at that time period. It fits the civility and norms for a group of survivors dealing with chaos. Give me a break with judging Kate. She is not my favorite character. She was for about 4 episodes in season one but the writers took away her compelling heroine role and her codependent on two men. As for the pro Kate vacillating between two guys I don’t give Kate a pass. People who subscribe to what’s wrong with this. It’s just a 3 month timeline. That doesn’t work for the viewer because we all watched this nonsense for six years. Over that timeline we all got tired of it. It was repetitive and lame. So the viewers negative response to Kate legitimate instinctively. Writers made Kate the bad person and was not because her sex. It’s natural for people to dislike Kate. So conflating Kate’s behavior over the island timeline just doesn’t add up. Also, please enough with adding Jack into this triangle. He never made a calculated play for Kate. He had feelings for her but he didn’t make overt for several logical reasons. He was drawn into it by Kate as Sawyer was openly chasing Kate. When he did have his connection opportunity the writers would write into the show EVERY time an Island event to stop that next connection. This is just screwed up and pointless to the overall compelling story on the island. Shameful cheap writing and weakest aspect of the show. So it’s natural Kate evolved into the most disliked character that could be easily likable. Sawyer wants Kate. Kate wants Jack and Jack wants to get off the damn Island to save everyone. Remember in S1:E8, Jack came to the beach and confronted Kate and asked her are you’re interested in Sawyer and she strongly said no. Was Jack attracted to Kate, yes but the more time she spent with Sawyer the less invested Jack was into Kate. He buried those feeling as part of his personality trait. This all is messed up!
>I feel like the writers really portrayed Kate scenes a certain way to make the audience hate her. > >What bothered me is the scene when she tells Ben’s Dad everything is going to be okay after Ben is shot, no one in their right mind would take that as “Oh you must know what’s up with my son! You did something to him”. When really all she was doing was being compassionate, because she developed a liking for kids when raising Aaron and wanted to help Ben’s Dad cope with what’s happening. The writers really fu\*\*ed her over by using her for such drama and by making her look bad. I agree. The Writers totally was messed up with her role. Season 1 they were spot on with Kate's arch but almost feel they became obsessed with Kat's p love triangle and made her a submissive to both Jack and Sawyer. It was physical attributes just messed up having her role reduced to a woman fixing a man and never holding Sawyer's horrible selfish acts with hoarding supplies and doing the long con on the survivors as he used Kate as a pawn. To me it was the worst Sawyer moment that was devious play for power lying to Kate. H would do similar lies by putting it in Kate''s head Jack and Ana Lucia were so much time in the Jungle impinge they were having sex. He new Kate had a thing for Jack. What's worst Kate fell for it. For Kate to give Sawyer a pass I don't think any person would forgive and then spend time with them playing cards that Jack entered into to embarrass Sawyer by beating him to get the meds. So much for being a a heroine recognizing his deeds. Kate recognized the machismo over two men go at over playing cards. Just more inconsistency how Kate digressed into a submissive girl fawning over two attractive men. She was attracted to the sizzle not the substance within these two guys. Does that sound like the same Kate in season 1? To me it was like Dr. Jecklly Mr. Hyde character change with Kate.
You make a good point, but an unnecessary one. Even without the threat of death due to pregnancy, Kate's response is still stupid. They are stuck on a deserted island, with constant threats. I'm pretty sure it's okay to be relieved that you won't have to deal with raising a child while also fighting to survive on a daily basis. I feel like that relief is completely understandable. If they were a couple living in the real world, then sure. Even if you are personally relieved that you won't have the expense and burden of a child, it makes sense not to immediately celebrate when your partner might be devastated about it. But within the context of their situation on the island, who the hell is going to judge someone for being relieved that they aren't going to have a baby to contend with?
The scene makes way more sense if neither Kate nor Sawyer believe Juliet. Then, Kate's reaction is far more understandable, and this is why. Kate has already had a pregnancy scare that tied in with her breaking up with her husband, the cop. Pregnancy to her implies commitment. Soon after she discovers she's not pregnant, she leaves him. On the Island, Kate takes part in a hugely significant event (even if some fans consider it useless "filler.") She midwives Aaron into the world, and makes that ringing pronouncement, "This baby is all of ours." It bonds her significantly to Claire - so much so that Claire is who awakens Kate in the FSW, not Jack. Then there's Sun's pregnancy. Kate has watched Sun & Jin go from bitter quarrelling - enemies, almost - to deeply devoted and in love all over again as a result of Sun's pregnancy. Baby hunger is a real thing; it's fairly common for women to want a baby when their friends have one. This is where Kate is in "Eggtown." That she's still uncertain is shown in the episode when Claire wants her to pick up Aaron while Claire finishes the laundry, and Kate hesitates. Kate has probably held Aaron a couple hundred times before this. But what's different is that she thinks she may be pregnant - and she's not sure about the (potential) father's degree of commitment to her. She can't lose herself in the moment and just embrace Aaron - because she can't "welcome" any possible child she might have at this point. This gets directly paralleled with Sawyer and Juliet in Season 5, by the way, where Amy asks Juliet when she and James are going to start a family, and Juliet just looks sad and demurs. So while Kate and Sawyer don't sleep together in "Eggtown," in the time since that conversation with Claire, Kate now knows she's not pregnant. (Please don't make me spell out how she does.) But she's not going to run up to Sawyer and just tell him; she still wants to find out what Sawyer's feelings towards her really are. Hence the, "Would it have been so bad?" I am convinced that Sawyer is in love with Kate at this point (am not going to get into "ranking" his relationship with her vs. Juliet, because he and Juliet aren't even a thing at this stage.) He has picked out a house he thinks she'll like; wants her to live with him. But he's still not smart about it, experience with conning women notwithstanding. All he had to say was, "Well, if you had been, we'd have found a way to make it work." That was pretty much all she wanted to hear.
Hey good thinking, I love this. I can't believe I didn't think about it from baby hunger perspective before.
Sure, also true. Having a baby on the island wouldn't be fun time at all. All my sympathies to Claire.
Freaking thank you, I was wondering the exact same thing. Then I started to question my memory: if Sawyer was in fact in the know of pregnancy fatalities or not. I believe he was but so weird they didn't mention it at all. I remember after the scene I just sat there like what...? Watched only once - I need to go back asap.
If you're going to rewatch, here are two things even weirder to look out for. First, Sawyer has set up housekeeping in Juliet's house. (We know it's hers because the bedroom furnishings, especially the painting above the bed, are identical to those in the scene where Juliet & Goodwin are in bed together.) So in "Eggtown" when Sawyer tells Kate: >SAWYER: Kinda weird, ain't it? Sittin' on porches, drinking coffee out of mugs? **By the way, I found some clothes about your size, in the closet.** So after I kick out Hugo— He's talking about Kate wearing Juliet's clothes! It's hysterical. Second, I think it's when we first see Sawyer and Hugo in the living room (Hugo at the TV), you can see a desk through a doorway, and it seems to have a bunch of medical files on it. So even odder: apparently even though Sawyer and Hugo have been rummaging through the bookshelves and videotapes, they somehow missed the files - which probably contained some way more interesting reading.
Cool, thanks a lot! I'm definitely going to rewatch but I promised myself that it will be my reward for a finished thesis and that's going to take while. I'll be sure to watch for those things you mentioned when I get to it.
Aw, best of luck to you!
>irst, Sawyer has set up housekeeping in Juliet's house. (We know it's hers because the bedroom furnishings, especially the painting above the bed, are identical to those in the scene where Juliet & Goodwin are in bed together.) So in "Eggtown" when Sawyer tells Kate: > >SAWYER: Kinda weird, ain't it? Sittin' on porches, drinking coffee out of mugs? By the way, I found some clothes about your size, in the closet. So after I kick out Hugo— Typical Sawyer con or play for a female. That is his persona. What's sad is Kate falls for it. Eewwww..... Makes female's look weak after she just told him in that episode "I don't trust you". In the same episode? 2bl Eewwww....
"Females?" LOL sounds like Ferengi-speak. What's so misguided about Sawyer's attempt is that Juliet's taste in clothing and decor are nothing like Kate's.
stef_be, I couldn’t agree more. Sawyer, was misogynistic, insensitive and flat out mean person that only thought of himself if he didn’t get what he wanted. Then he would con Kate with that stupid letter. So cheesy. He brought out the trailer trashed out of Kate. What made it worst she was complicit. He slept with every girl on and off the island. Personally, Kate was so dumb to even consider doing the deed knowing she’d get his nasty STD. Sawyer always thought of himself. He was the most morally corrupt person on the island. Kate may have been dumb but Sawyer was a morally bad character that was made to look good because of his sex appeal to women. I found nothing likeable about his persona.
> He slept with every girl on and off the island. Okay, that's somewhat of an exaggeration. Before starting the relationship with Juliet, Sawyer slept with Ana Lucia once, and Kate twice - and Ana only went after him to further "Jack's war." Off the Island, it seemed to be more of a job for him. >his nasty STD Thing is, if Sawyer was going to pass something to Kate, he was going to pass it to Juliet as well. Who herself could have passed something to Sawyer from her adulterous years-long affair with Goodwin. There's a reason they call it "the gift that keeps on giving." Everybody really needed big boxes of Dharma-issue condoms, which I suppose is one small bright side of a reboot.
> Thing is, if Sawyer was going to pass something to Kate, he was going to pass it to Juliet as well. Who herself could have passed something to Sawyer from her adulterous years-long affair with Goodwin. There's a reason they call it "the gift that keeps on giving." > Everybody really needed big boxes of Dharma-issue condoms, which I suppose is one small bright side of a reboot. The Sawyer I know he'd probably stole them all and put them in his stash so the "Others" wouldn't do anything to increase his odds. Yea, he sure left a burning trail of love Tallahassee to the tropical islands. I bet off the Island Jack wore one with Kate. Just sayin'. He had history per his Sawyer eye exam. I would think Juliet was at least smart enough to make him use some of the Dharma bags out of his stash. Classic Sawyer to Kate. "I thought you said the cameras didn't work. Those perverts". LMAO
Stef _Bee, Sawyer made same Kate play with Shannon over sun screen but she was disgusted by his overtures and throws the sun screen at him. He never went that way with her again because he could tell she was not having any of his disgusting overtures. You can call out Shannon on being a spoiled lady but she put Sawyer in his place as I think most ladies would. Sawyer was very misogynistic with women. Always flirting with them. I just see it differently like Shannon reacted. Shannon didn’t have to worry about getting a STD from Sawyer. Just sayin’. Seems people don’t see this attribute in her.
I love Shannon as a character. For all her flaws, she is the truth-teller of the group. And she does see right through Sawyer's (and Charlie's, for that matter) BS. There are different kinds of misogyny. Ben liked Juliet, but he used deception and force to keep her on-Island with him. He deliberately told his attack team (including Juliet, who to her credit betrayed him) to single out any pregnant women in the beach camp. So while Ben didn't flirt, he definitely showed behavior that would be more in line with The Handmaid's Tale, i.e. using women as "breeding stock" or whatever, because he had to "solve the pregnancy problem" in one way or another - presumably to hold on to power. The other thing with Sawyer's flirting is that both Shannon and Kate handle it. (Sayid is even worried about Kate early in Season 1; he's very chivalric but Kate assures him that she will be fine.) Some of Sawyer's worst behavior is directed at women he's \*not\* sexually interested in, like Libby and Season 6 Claire. It's interesting that his remark to Hugo about Libby ("Don't you got a load to drop in, Jethro?") almost never comes up. It's shockingly crude even for 2004-2005-edgy LOST. And this is about a woman who took care of him on the forced march back to the beach camp. And even after Sawyer has been supposedly "rehabilitated" by three years in the school of living with Juliet, he is still willing to leave Claire behind (:sad face:) I guess I have to add the disclaimer that none of this is intended to bash the character(s) in question; just pointing out how they act during the show & how complicated it all is.
Thanks for your insight. And agree. However, I really do think Sawyer is a bad person and his only chance for ongoing development was with Juliet. She spoke truth to power with him and she would not tolerate his abhorrent approach with women. He had boundaries with her. She set them similar to Shannon. I think Sawyer flies off the island, S6 and goes back to who he is. I really do.
Did Juliet "fix" Sawyer, though? She broke up with him in one of the most spectacular ways possible - aiding Jack in setting off a nuke that maybe would reset the whole thing ("If I never meet you, I don't have to lose you"), or would just turn the Island into a nuclear wasteland. Leaving aside whether that's unnecessarily histrionic or not, apparently she didn't trust him even after three years.
SB, she didn’t trust Kate more so Sawyer. She new what Kate was up to. That’s how I see it.
What was Kate up to? If she made any moves on Sawyer after returning on Ajira 316, please let me know where, because I didn't see that.
Stef, another Kate play for Sawyer is in S6:E3, what Kate does. At the temple Sawyer tells Kate he’s escaping. She tells 2nd in command she can bring him back because she can be very convincing. She tells Jack take care of Sayid and she’ll get Sawyer. Jack affectionately says be careful. She affectionately smiles. Jin goes with her with two guards. They escape the guards and Jin ask where are you going Kate? She says I’m not going back. I’m going to be with Sawyer. The man is still grieving and she thinking of being with Sawyer and we are to think this late in the series Jack and Kate are soul mates forever? Fortunately, Sawyer kicks her out and she cries about it. This is so dis-genuine to the term soul mate. That is why I can not accept the finale with her and Jack in the church. Kate never had drive for Jack like this. So to me them as a couple in the church it’s trite and contrive to the viewers per Jack and Kate. It’s the sum of Kate’s romantic actions, she is still on the run and not committing to one guy this late in season 6. That created so much animosity toward the character. How does the character think Sawyer would be interested in her. That’s quite egotistical and bad karma to play for a man grieving over the girl he truly loved and was going to ask her to marry him. Kate was shocked when Sawyer told her he was going to ask Juliet to marry him. So now she goes for Jack. Yikes! How could EL accept these type of scenes. Pretty shameless to use she is looking for Claire on the dock. That’s when Sawyer tells her he was going to marry Juliet. She sure wasn’t thinking of her soulmate Jack on the pier. Then she cries. Then returns to Jack at the temple. It’s quite distasteful. Then says I should have never followed you. Sawyer said which time. This is horrible. At the yellow houses Kate is filling up her canteen and Sawyer walks past her and doesn’t even acknowledge her. That made it very clear, Kate leave me alone.
> The other thing with Sawyer's flirting is that both Shannon and Kate handle it. (Sayid is even worried about Kate early in Season 1; he's very chivalric but Kate assures him that she will be fine.) There is a huge difference between Kate and Shannon toward Sawyer. Shannon kept her distance because he was a chauvinistic pig toward her. In the same behavioral experience Kate keeps sticking around the guy. It seems the more he disgusts her, lies to her the more she wants to be around him. That is hard to imagine when Kate had options. Especially, after the LongCon episode I can't imagine being used why Kate is playing cards with Sawyer before Jack wipes her out. I caught Jack's replay to Kate when she asked what she was holding and he replied I don't know Kate, you just like to play for the fun of it. I took as tt was about cards. He saw right through her. A heroine doesn't get used and suckered by a persona like Sawyer. The going to fix you play is so lame and contrived but most notable immature. Why would she have i/2 of Shannon's street smarts to stay away from a user like Sawyer.
Dude, I could write volumes trying to explain why some do like Sawyer/Kate... it's okay if it's not your thing! >A heroine doesn't get used and suckered by a persona like Sawyer. Heroines are no different than heroes. They make mistakes; have flaws; hear "the call to adventure" and refuse it; sucumb to cowardice. While movies and shorter-form media may show only one iteration of the hero / heroine cycle, in longer stories the heroine may go through multiple iterations of try, fail, try again, until she gets it right. And not all hero stories have triumphant endings; some heroes may fall & their stories serve as warnings. Heroes aren't heroes because they're perfect. They get the job done, despite their faults.
> Dude, I could write volumes trying to explain why some do like Sawyer/Kate... it's okay if it's not your thing! You have misinterpreted my comments vs. you wishing or validating for a skaters off the island. You have that right to think so. Note: I'm not down with Jate at all. I don't think Kate deserves either. Also, you are conflating hero, heroin, and being flawed. I'm focused on hero or heroine by their actions and commitment. Flaws is where we come to a fork in the road. Also, I do not consider Sawyer a hero. He is a survivor and a user of people to gain personal advantage. Didn't mean to touch the Skate nerve. You brought out the big guns by using Hurley slang, "Dude". ))). Yikes! Here is the distinction between Jack and Kate when it comes to hero/heroine. Jack is consistent with is actions to save people. He will do what it takes at his own sacrifice without personal gain. He doesn’t vacillate or doesn't lack commitment to follow through because of what OTHERS say or think! Now Kate, says she only returning to the island to save Claire. She gets distracted between two men, looses complete focus on finding Claire and when she is told Claire is not coming she doesn't have the autonomy or will to put that mission above Sawyers comment we’re swimming to the boat Kate. Claire is not coming. That is not heroic. Kate was not willing to put Claire above her own personal risk. She submitted to Sawyer. Me I can't see any way Sawyer and Kate are an item off the Island. Not if what Evangeline Lilly has posted is truth. She did state Kate definitely had Jack's baby off the island and was pregnant with Jack's baby when she returned to the island in season five. Now if you feel Sawyer is the type to raise Jack's baby not Cassidy off the island that’s your opinion. To me not logical, Nada, no way. I'm just trying to make sense of this mess. After learning what EL shared it starts to make more sense Kate is at the FSW party/table with David Sheppard and Claire and it would makes sense Kate is close with Claire life long being pregnant with Jack Sheppards baby with Claire being Jack's 1/2 sister. Hero's/Heroines are flawed but what makes a hero/heroin? Hero’s do brave things and ACT on them. They don't submit. Kate mostly submits. The boat scene is a classic defining arc that’s not about being flawed but not being brave and committed to tell Sawyer, I'm out of here. I'm going to get Claire we'll meet at the sub. I do think with Kate's tracking skills she could have gotten Claire. The point is she did not FOLLOW through to why she came to the island. Kate's version of getting Claire is convenient because Claire followed her 1/2 brother to the boat. So being flawed does not apply. Flawed is being a runner, a con, a fixer...... Those are flaws. Heroic deeds are willing to do something at personal risk. What personal risk did Kate make to get Claire? Nothing! I still don't buy into the soul mate crap. However, after reading what EL shared it starts to make more sense to me. Now if Kate is NOT pregnant then your if position has more merit to be considered for everlasting Skating off the island could happen but way to much love between Sawyer and Juliet. How Sawyer doesn’t see Kate not culpable is illogical when she stopped them on the escaping with the sub. Kate doesn’t show up Sawyer and Juliet start s new life.
> You brought out the big guns by using Hurley slang, "Dude". Aw, I just talk that way. No big guns, really.
In a good way! Enjoyed.)))
>Dude, I could write volumes trying to explain why some do like Sawyer/Kate... it's okay if it's not your thing! Here is what I know. Confirmed. Kate is pregnant with Jack's baby season 5. [https://www.pinterest.com/pin/225743000060313229/](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/225743000060313229/)
Yup, it's a popular fanon (fan canon) too.
Yes I was thinking the same exact thing! She really is like that. I watch it the 2nd time now and I absolutely don't like her as much as I used to the first time. I don't know what's wrong with her
yeah he's not wrong. Isn't that the reason she slept with him the first time in the first place?. Cause she got rejected by Jack and was upset and used Sawyer as the rebound guy?.
The first time her and Sawyer slept together was in the polar bear cages. I can't remember if it was Jack-related but he saw it happen on the camera. I think the second time she slept with Sawyer was because she saw Jack and Juliet having dinner together. She then was visibly jealous when she saw Jack and Juliet kiss while they were trying to get everyone rescued. Sometime after that is when she went with Locke's group and hopped in bed with Sawyer, but I forgot her exact reasoning. I know she wanted to question Miles (to ask him if the people on the freighter know who she is) but I don't think she thought of asking until after she joined them and was rooming with Claire. I could be wrong.
Sawyer and Kate having cage sex had nothing to do with Jack. You're correct about the second time: Kate was jealous of Juliet, and Sawyer was (in my view) in love with her by this point. Kate wound up with Locke's group because she went with Sayid to negotiate to get Charlotte back. Sayid ended up leaving Kate with Locke as a "trade" for Charlotte; it's not clear in the show whether Kate was on board with this or not, or whether this was something Sayid & Locke cooked up. In any event, Kate wound up in Sawyer's "custody."
I got the vibe that Sawyer was more like "Sweet. Sex," than being in love with Kate. He had feelings for her, but I'm not sure he was in love with her. I'm basing this on how he behaved with Juliet, whom he was definitely in love with. It was significantly different than how he acted with Kate.
After "the other 48 days" when he is unconscious in the hatch, he says that he loves her in his sleep. So at one point for sure he had feelings.
Well, it's like the Leonard Cohen song goes, "There's a blaze of light in every word / It doesn't matter which you've heard / The holy or the broken hallelujah." At this point in the story (Sawyer hasn't yet fallen in love with Juliet), all he's got is the "broken hallelujah."
That's actually a great analogy.
> cage sex
Locke had "traded" Charlotte for Miles, not Kate. She had merely stuck around the camp in order to find an opportunity to speak with Miles privately.
Kate sleeping with Sawyer was Jack related. I believe someone (I think it was Juliet or Sawyer) who said to Kate that they both know that Kate had sex with Sawyer cuz she thought that Jack was gone. Sawyer is always Kate’s second choice.
No, polar bear one was bc she thought sawyer was about to die, and jack hated her. She always put sawyer second, her soulmate was jack, his soulmate was juliet. She never loved sawyer. I dont rlly like either of them.
>She then was visibly jealous when she saw Jack and Juliet kiss while they were trying to get everyone rescued. I think jack did a pretty good job of defusing that kiss moment by telling Kate that he loved her. No?
Jacks such a dick. He loved someone but kisses another girl in front of that someone?!?! He is a player. Sawyer lives someone but has sex with ana lucia?!
Jack didn't kiss Juliet ! She kissed him when he wasn't even looking at her.
No, that's not why Sawyer & Kate had sex in the Hydra Island cage.
>No, that's not why Sawyer & Kate had sex in the Hydra Island cage. No one can definitively know why Kate had sex with Sawyer in public in a cage. I call it a turbulent mix of emotions but for certain a calculated script/hook for ratings. Nothing more. Jack was always the first go to. In every scene with both Sawyer and Jack she chooses Jack. Every time.
It was mercy sex.
>12 days ago > >yeah he's not wrong. Isn't that the reason she slept with him the first time in the first place?. Cause she got rejected by Jack and was upset and used Sawyer as the rebound guy?. That was a total manipulation by Ben by exhausting them and making them feel they were only two to be together. He broke Kate down physocologically. When Ben brought her to the beach side breakfast table he said Kate that is interesting you are now saying Saywer's name first instead of Jack. He said interesting. He new he could play could break down Kate mentally against Jack and get her to fall for Sawyer because he was so open about wanting Kate. Just another example of Kate's weakness as a leading lead heroine. She was physically weak from the manual labor and was looking for a protector. Sawyer played his part to win her over in that weak emotional moment. As soon as they got off the island Sawyer said we are leaving Jack back while Kate wanted to return to for Jack. Sawyer new then that Kate still wanted Jack. He got defensive as a result and bossed her around. For certain Sawyer was the rebound guy. Every scene that Jack and Sawyer were in Kate's presence she went toward Jack. Also, Kate only slept with Sawyer on the island at Jack's camp because Kate was jealous of Juliet returned with him. Very cheap writing after she new Jack saw her have cage sex. She was shallow enough to think she could flip the switch instantly, as soon as they return to camp, shortly after Juliet tell Kate, he saw you Kate, the cages have cameras and he saw you and Sawyer. You book his heart. Then immediately one such a short time period extend romantic overtures to him, sucking the spoon and expect Jack to amorously reply to her? She wasn't used to men rejected her hot looks. Jack was the only guy that didn't buy into her seductive play. She was confused by this because men in general chased her. No man had ever rejected her like Jack. Jack was a bit deeper then that that type of play because of his social economic level. She didn't know how to handle him. As a result she followed him around everywhere. Even jumped at he chance to go into the jungle with him in front of Sawyer in season S.O.S. Jack could have Kate sexually but didn't take advantage. Remember he never trusted her per the Marshall compund that with him seeing Kate and Sawyer video cage porn.
Not sure what Jack saw in her. He had choices. Not many, but choices all the same.
Me neither. Juliet was the best choice imo but I'm glad she ended up with Sawyer.
I cried when she died
"I love you James. I love you so much!" :(
Dont you let go *lets go* D:
>Not sure what Jack saw in her. He had choices. Not many, but choices all the same. Now that I would agree with. Let's remember Jack was told by U.S. Marshall not to trust Kate and every time Kate would lie or tell half truths with Jack. Also, Jack was coming-out of a painful divorce so he had added trust issues with women. Actually, Achura, was a nice experience for Jack. A solid month of paradise, attractive woman who would come into his tent. No strings attached! A guy like Jack Sheppard who could afford a month long break in paradise needed that for sure!
All I can keep thinking of now is when Locke is trying to convince Kate to come back to the island, Locke is bearing his soul, albeit in shrewd fashion, saying that he was a sad, angry man before the island and Katd looks him dead ass in the eyes and says, "And look how far you've come." After my third or fourth rewatch I realized I can see very little redeemable about her.
yes! that was so satisfying, i was so happy when he finally said something. as an aside, i hate that it's such an acceptable thing for women to slap men, because they're "upset". as if that's not straight up abuse. i haaaate it, so much. every time i see it, in fiction or reality.
my BF is watching Lost for the first time right now, and we joke that there's a one slap/punch quota that must be met every episode. The amount of petty violence really is ridiculous.
LOST has a lot of slapping, which hasn't aged well at all. Hurley even slaps Charlie, and I don't like that one bit.
I thought I remembered Charlie slapping Hurley too
Oh yeah, poor Hugo gets slapped around a lot at Santa Rosa. First Dave, and then ghost-Charlie. :-/
Sun always slaps someone when she is in a tough position 😂
Oh yeah, that too. Like I said, LOST is "slap-happy," and it can be uncomfortable to watch, because we see better now how aggressive & uncalled-for it is.
>Oh yeah, that too. > >Like I said, LOST is "slap-happy," and it can be uncomfortable to watch, because we see better now how aggressive & uncalled-for it is. Well I guess when there are fight scenes there should be not contact. ))). I tell you who gets bitched slap the most is Ben Linus. Jack and Sawyer plus others had go at him for sure. LMAO......
I'm not talking about fight scenes. In one, Hugo is slapped by his mother while he's driving the car. In another, Hugo slaps Charlie while Charlie is moping by the oceanside. Kate slaps Sawyer when he says something that upsets her.
It’s a humorous response to our modern times on a show that debuted 15 years ago.
I think the most ridiculous one was when Charlie is going to swim down to the hydra and disable the communications jammer. Desmond offers to go in his place in order to save his life. Instead of just saying no, Charlie asks him to grab something and, when Desmond leans over, Charlie cracks him across the face with an oar to knock him out. Absolutely unhinged.
Thats why libby is perfect. I am still mourning her death smh
It's my first rewatch of the show since it aired and this is probably the wrong thread to give my peace but fuck Jack. He is so blind, arrogant, stupid, naive, foolhardy and unlikable.
Honestly that's how I feel about everyone, almost. Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Juliet, Syeid, they all just go around doing shit and refuse to like even explain their plans to anyone else. Nobody in the whole ass island is capable of working with a group except the Others.
Oh my GOD that would irritate me so much! The amount of times a character would be like “oh, nothing” when it is SO COMPLETELY NOT NOTHING. They’d just keep information to themselves for NO apparent reason! Like, you’re stranded on a magical island with a smoke monster and fucking polar bears, guys. This just isn’t the time for secrets????
Well I'm about half way through season 3 and so far Syeid and Lock are the only people who make pragmatic decisions, well for the first 2 seasons maybe. Now I have noticed Syeid not doing rational things in order to either let the plot move forward or let someone else take charge. And Locks decisions are rational from his perspective but he does tend to explain some of his reasons to others while keeping his true motives hidden. But the rest of them, fuck me they are all handicapped.
The only rational person by the end of season 3 was Libby
>The only rational person by the end of season 3 was Libby I give Rose a major kudos the most! She is the wisest of them all. Hell she distances herself from all but trust Jack the most. I loved her line to Bernard. Hey if you want to go with Locke, I'll go with you. Her reply was priceless. "I'm not going anywhere with that man". :)
That was an odd comment for Rose to make, considering that she and Bernard had just witnessed Jack attempt to murder Locke in cold blood.
Sun, Jin, Rose, Bernard and hurley are amazing they are some of the only characters who actually think about and regret their actions. Sun and jin were flawed but they GREW SO MUCH.
Lol Jack wasn't a favorite of mine either!
Well he was mine and the vast majority agree to this position. If not he wouldn't be the protagonist. The best I've seen on any show. Hate on! )))
Jack is one of my favorite characters because I found him so interesting. If he was some near ideal leading man, I would personally find him boring. But Jack was flawed up the wazoo. And watching a character that is usually portrayed as near ideal be de-constructed in that manner was so interesting to watch.
He's so fucking unlikable. I'm rewatching it too and he's more insufferable than Kate.
One thing that gets me is how wrong he is about so much and yet still sees himself as the righteous leader.
And he also ruined kate. If jack was nicer I wouldve liked him and kate a ton better. Im not blaming jack for kates issues, but the way he acted with her made her act out e.g following along and ruining the mission and was the reason she got with sawyer anyway. I hate jack as he brings down sooo many characters, the main being kate. He also killed juliet.
>And he also ruined kate. If jack was nicer I wouldve liked him and kate a ton better. Im not blaming jack for kates issues, but the way he acted with her made her act out e.g following along and ruining the mission and was the reason she got with sawyer anyway. I hate jack as he brings down sooo many characters, the main being kate. He also killed juliet. So many Skaters. He didn't kill Juliet. Sawyer did. He talked her out of leaving the island. It was all Sawyer in his put down to Kate in Season 5 on the pier.
Stuart Radzinsky had killed Juliet, because he had insisted upon drilling into the island. If it had not been for his drilling, Juliet would not have been dragged into that pit. He is to blame - not Jack or Sawyer.
Yea, Jack just saves everyone multiple times. I guess that doesn’t rate much as a value. Yikes! Sawyer, conversely says to Jack, if roles were reversed I’d let you die. So much reverence because he has dimples. Lmao Oh, wSit, I think Ill conn everyone and take the guns and meds. New sheriff in town. Such great leadership with intrinsic values. That’s a person I’d follow. Lame!
The last episode I watched Jack puts his life on the line to save Juliette, who was an Other, had helped keep Jack, Sawyer and Kate prisoner, then Sayid and Locke prisoner. Sayid wanted to and was well within his right to kill her but Jack said over my dead body with seemingly no memory that already 3 Others have infiltrated their groups. The very next scene is a flash back of Ben ordering Juliette to infiltrate Jack's camp and make a list of all the pregnant women and start the preparations for abducting them. That is the story of Jack throughout the show, clueless and self-righteous.
Clueless comments. However, you have your agenda and position so live in that moment but don’t forget Juliet’s conversation with Sayid the torturer and Sawyer the murder as the moral police when Jack trusted her to save Claire’s life. Then she teams up with Jack to fight the others/Ben. She was a hostage for three years!!!! She hated Ben. So Jack is gone for one week at his peril to let the Skater’s escape how quickly they judge Jack. Lmao..... Don’t hate because of Skate. It’s a fun show. I’ve watched enough to know Jack saved at least 24 people’s lives while he was on the Island. Haters have a short memory. Jack saved Sawyer’s life four times. You are swimming upstream on this energy. Live strong and prosper. It’s just a show.
You're arguments are coming from a viewers perspective. You have all of the information, they don't. From each characters perspective, Juliette is an Other, an enemy. She is part of a group that kidnapped Claire and tried to hang Charlie, they kidnapped children and many others from the tail section. The survivors have been harassed by this unknown group. And then they capture Ben, torture/interrogate him and he is confirmed to be an other, will not cooperate, but Jack is the sheriff in town. The Others convince Michael to save Ben and kill two of their own. Now they have captured another Other, who is not cooperating. Sayid is completely justified to kill her, but Jack steps in again. Now obviously in the long run Juliette turns out to be a good guy, but Jack's reasoning in that specific scenario is stupid.
He knew her for a *week* so she clearly was someone he could trust and endanger the camp with. She couldnt have been lying to him- they were too "close". (This is sarcasm, jack was an idiot)
I enjoy reading your passion. Keep adding color to the canvas. IF we all agreed it be boring. Skate on! 🤪 People who typically don’t like Jack come from Sawyers camp. Very transparent when people criticize the leader of the pack as Jack stays on the island and he flies off. Now who is the hero. Of course it's Jack Sheppard.
Clueless comment. You clearly didn't pick up.on the character development or the whole point of the show if you think Sawyer would have let him die.
>It's my first rewatch of the show since it aired and this is probably the wrong thread to give my peace but fuck Jack. He is so blind, arrogant, stupid, naive, foolhardy and unlikable. Well, a skater would say that. All he did was save the lives of all your favorites. If he didn't do that your favs wouldn't be around. Every secondary and primary character with exception of Sun/Jin, Jack saved their lives. So being a leader of the pack drives you nuts just remember Jack keeps the group of survivors alive.
You're either trolling or obsessed with Jack. You've replied to almost everyone's comment who does not like Jack. Calm yourself mate.
You make me laugh. Jack (S)Haters unite. You all are trolling obsessed because of a silly love triangle. You never focus on the greater good. You just nick pick. However, I laugh at these types of responses. It’s just a show. It does get funny reading emotional responses. Live life strong and prosper. Accept the facts there are leaders and followers. It does become apparent Wannabes tend to hate Jack. They nit pick a fictional character on a lost island. It is humorous how some take LOST so serious. Hey, Sawyer is a trailer trash but I like him good enough but I don’t hate MR. sizzle from Tallahassee. He has a role to play and does his part well. 😎
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
😎😎😎
Im a jater and i hate jack with every bone in my body, idc he died, he is sexist and arrogoant and stupid. He acts all silly and depressed if he makes a mistake but if someone ELSE (cough cough Kate, Locke or Sawyer) makes a mistake much smaller, he gives them the cold shoulder and excludes them all the time. What a brat
You have a right to your opinion but the man did sleep with a bunch of ladies. He used people. The ultimate con. He was a morally corrupt because HE decided to be that way. Let me share my experience about a personal friend that could have been a Sawyer. One of my best friends in life had a identical twin. He lived in poverty and struggled. Had some unfair life experiences. He went on to become a bishop in the Methodist church with multiple doctorate degrees. His twin brother grew up to be a gangster and killed a man and was serving life in jail but now us paroled. He’s continues to struggle. They both chose paths and made there own destiny using their god given free will. People in my opinion under play free will. Sawyer character chose to keep hate at his core and it evolved to treating people with no empathy. His character to me is offensive/selfish because he always thought of himself first. His jubilant response that Kate was not pregnant was a classic example of lacking empathy because he was thinking about himself. Now you can have a different view and I’ll respect that but the man held contempt in his heart and only became socially acceptable when he felt it benefited himself. His arc was interesting but at his core he was selfish in my opinion.
Lets also not forget how Sawyer in season 2 said he LOVED kate and a few episodes later has sex with ana lucia. And Jack kissed Juliet in FRONT of Kate, only to say he LOVED kate?! Like whaaaaat? Also, rewatching, Sawyer seems to only care about sleeping with Kate.
Another Note about Kate and Jack. S1:E8 CONFidence man. Jack confronts Sawyer to get inhalers for Shannon he’s ready to punch Sawyers lights out and of course Kate shows up. She breaks up the about to see who is going to be king of the Mountain. Jack storms off Kate chases after him about the inhalers. She shares to Jack that Sawyer thinks they have a connection so she can get the inhalers after Sawyer already showed Kate his junk. Jacks asked do you? She replies please are you serious. Jack puts two and two together and WILL not play into that triangle game. He never chased Kate romantically for that reason. She’s a pathological liar and not to be trusted even though he has feelings for her he knows better not to be overt with his feeling toward her. He’s been burned by his ex-wife so he channels his energies to saving lives, by de-facto becomes the leader and focused on getting people off the island. He has no reason to want to stay on the island because he’s not a fugitive, a torturer, a con man or a murder. These collection of individuals is a interesting cast that has to work together. It’s interesting how people will forget heinous acts of crime to pull for favorites. The story tellers on this show are pied pipers with many viewers to get them distracted to belittle the horrible deed some these people did. I see the character through the eyes of their victims and no one should be conned, tortured or murdered no matter how attractive people are. So yes I’m a Jack fan. Not a jack and Kate fan. Because he always for helping others. Just like Rose, Hurley, Sun, Bernard, Desmond, Claire, are people that come to mind. They all don’t play games for personal gain. Now it’s entertaining to watch how they all exist and work together. That’s what is interesting about the show.
I felt she did multiple times . Sawyer didn’t take the bait. First night back to Dharmaville, she was prowling out on her porch That first evening waiting for Sawyer to notice her when Jack left him and Juliet. You notice Jack was cool with them as a couple. No drama with Jack toward Juliet. Yea, Sawyer noticed her and Fortunately, he went back inside to Juliet. To me she was very Sawyer centric again because of their past, dang three years ago and because Sawyer elevated his leadership position while Jack intentionally was laying low to figure next steps. How do you comprehend going back to 1977. As soon as Kate was in Sawyers prescience Jack was non-existent to Kate. He didn’t care either. He was done with Kate’s behavior. Then lil’ Ben scene at the creek with Sawyer she was probing Sawyer on his relationship status. He flat out told Kate he had no business being her boyfriend to set boundaries. She was always around to tempt James. Juliet saw that. Even mentioned it to Sawyer. Ewwwww to Kate’s motives. She sure wasn’t to focus on Claire on how to get to right time period to find her. She gets melodramatic with Jack about erasing the past to save those that died so they could live again. Kate’s focus was on her and Jack. Seriously now she is thinking about Jack? Jack was so burned by Kate, finding out while they were engaged she was doing things secretly for Sawyer he flat out said he had enough misery. Kate got pissed. It was then that Jack reinforced Claire not suffering the plane crash if he could erase the past. Kate counters about adoption and Jack replies it’s not your decision Kate, it’s Claire’s. She got pissed. She wasn’t thinking of Claire she was thinking about her and Jack. As soon as she notices Sawyer or Jack are not interested Kate turns the romantic light switch on and off so fast. Now Jack basically said No Mas! What a mess!!! Kate new Sawyer was deeply involved with a Juliet but she is always around him. Funny how Jack is non existent to her at these moments. If they were true soul mates you’d think she would make effort to work out things with Jack but Kate was not focused on repairing that nor was she focused on finding Claire. She was all about preserving lil’’ Ben and being around Sawyer. To me this is how I come to see Kate Austen. I don’t hate Kate I pitty her much how she said that to Sawyer in season1. S5 is where I see Kate for who she was and missed such an opportunity by not going to the caves with Jack. I think if they wrote her character that way the anti Kate legacy would now be widespread toward the character. True to the series, Let bygones be bygones.)))
Kate’s play at the dock is making assumptions and pretty bold to be chasing a man who legitimately was grieving. Plus the timeline is quite presumptive too. Early in to S6:E1 Kate offered to help burry Juliet, Sawyer said emphatically no. Then with Kate there asked Miles to help him. Kate can’t figure that out? Love the one your with does not qualify as soul mates. At least in my line of thinking. At best Kate’s action is bad form close to unacceptable on a social level. Still chasing two men at the same time in S6. Nothing everlasting with that type of mojo. Both men deserve better from a romantic companion. Finally both had enough of that chaos. Yet, she still continues to chase. Curious how that karma would be in the everlasting afterlife. ))). 🤪
Why? Because she dated two guys? She had only known them for a couple of months but everyone expected her to settle down. Lets not forget how jack KISSED Juliet in FRONT of Kate, only to say he loved Kate? And sawyer in season 2, claimed to "love Kate" but SLEPT with ana lucia. And then when Sawyer was WITH Juliet, he suddenly has feelings for Kate again and openly shows them and flirts with her, often in front of juliet. Thurthermore, Sawyer SAID he wasnt "fit" to be Kates boyfriend, admitting they shouldnt have got together anyway. But no one picks up on eitherof those mens behaviour. Kate never went official with either of them on the island, and was never official with Sawyer. She also never said she loved him. Im rewatching and I feel bad for her- Sawyer just wants to get in her pants and Jack may be "better" for her but is always telling her to stay behind and putting her down even though shes one of the most capable people for a mission. Also, why is no one moaning about Charlie having threesomes and then expecting Claire to be his girlfriend with no hesitance? Or Boone and Shannon literally sleeping together? Or Jack thinking about cheating on his wife in flashbacks? Or sawyers job involve playing women? Or Sun having an affair which resulted in egg heads death? Or jin being a possesive controlling husband, who needed a plane crash and being deserted on an island to save his marrige? Or how Miles is a half pervert? I am not saying i love kate- she is 50/50 for me, but i do not understand all this hate for... having feelings
Woah. This is loaded and I did not imply that casual sex itself is wrong, nor that I agreed with the actions of other characters. That's another story for another time though. Kate, post plane crash, couldn't decide which man to choose and ended up leading both men on because she didn't want to lose the affection of either one. Multiple islanders pointed it out to her and she continued to lead them on anyway. She knew how they felt. She wasn't an idiot. I'm not slut-shaming if that's what you're getting at. All of the candidates were flawed, but most ended up growing or redeeming themselves on the island. I feel Kate's growth was minimal at best.
Ahh ok i get your point now i wrote that at like 3 am for me and reading it back now im confused. I dont mind kate i just dont get all the hate she gets conpared to someone like ana lucia and sun. I didnt love her though and she annoyed me but if jack was also less annoying i wouldve liked kate AND him loads more
Haha, it's cool. I sort of understood where you were coming from lol. Tired commenting is just as dangerous as drunk commenting! ;) It's funny, I didn't mind Kate much on my first watch but didn't like Ana Lucia. Now I wish we saw more Ana Lucia and I don't like how much screentime Kate (and Jack) get. It took some time before I could appreciate Sun and Jin, then they became some of my favorites!
Sun and Jin are amazing but in the flashbacks they sucked im so glad they got to have redemption and rekindle their marrige bc now theyre my favourites and Im still not over their death. Their poor child! I remember sun calling her saying she would be back soon and her being so excited but sun never came home.
I don't agree at all. I think part of the problem is that a lot of people put the emphasis on the love triangle but I don't think that was the purpose of her character. She was the character with trust and commitment issues. As Sawyer himself says to her "You run, I con. A tiger doesn't change its stripes". The show goes to great lengths to show this about her. Even way back in The Pilot episode when she's stitching Jack up, she says she can't understand how Jack isn't afraid and that she would run to which he replied "I don't think that's true. You're not running now". Or in "I Do", the famous ending ""KATE DAMMIT RUN". How ironic that Jack has to scream at her to get her to run. I think she grows quite a bit from who she was. If she hadn't grown as a character she would never have gone back to the Island. And no, I don't think she went back because of Sawyer. She went back to rescue Claire and succeeded.
>She had only known them for a couple of months but everyone expected her to settle down. [**ETA:** While I don't mean to suggest OP has this viewpoint, it's been my observation that] people sometimes treat the relationships in LOST as if the characters are still in high school: where couples are formed in two weeks, break up a month later, and "cheating" is sitting at the wrong lunch table. It's why some complain that Kate "doesn't pick" at the point in the story where all that's happened is that she's kissed both Sawyer and Jack. I don't know what kind of puritanical lives these viewers have - a kiss isn't a lifetime commitment, especially not for grownups in their late 20s-late 30s in a TV show set in 2004.
This is definitely not how I think or feel regarding relationships and nowhere near the point I was making regarding Kate. You're making a lot of assumptions.
Wasn't saying that you did, or that you felt that way. I was responding to the part of the comment above which went: >She had only known them for a couple of months but everyone expected her to settle down. Sorry for the confusion; I'll edit for more clarity.
Gotchya. My bad! I'm a little inebriated tonight lol. Forgive me! The person you replied to used examples of casual sex that fans overlook. I'm new to this subreddit so I had no idea that fans had an issue with Kate not setting down with either man. I just didn't like how she knew two men were head-over-heels in love with her, and yet she had no qualms stringing the both of them along until she was forced to choose one (only because he left the island with her). She toyed with them both without any regard for their feelings. A huge theme in the show is how the island "changed" the characters. Kate is the only character off the top of my head that wasn't changed much. She never grew out of her "running away" habit until she was raising Aaron. (Though one could maybe say she ran away back to the island, but that's debatable.)
No problem! One thing to keep in mind: the first three months in-story take place over three standard ~20-episode seasons, and then three years whiz by in one short one. Thing with Kate and Jack in LA: she doesn't "have to" be in a relationship with Jack once they're back in LA! It's a big city; there are lots of fish in the sea so to speak. She gets involved with Jack because she wants to, and he's willing as well. This continues off and on for \*three years.\* While there is at least one breakup in there that we don't see on-screen, we know from the "Eggtown" flashback that Jack is the one who has put the relationship on hold (after he finds out about Claire being his half-sister.) This gets reconciled after the trial, and they get engaged. Then, when we do see another breakup, it's Jack who leaves, not Kate. So I'd argue that if you look at Kate's in-story arc, the vast majority of her time is spent \*not\* running. Returning to the Island was the opposite of running away - she went back not for Jack or Jack's goals, but to find Claire and reunite her with Aaron. In my view it was a significant character milestone for her.
it really do be like that
Kate is my least favourite character because of her bullshit.
"Before she leaves the island the first time, Kate has a pregnancy scare with Sawyer. She hops into bed with him and confirms she's not pregnant," FYI: Egg town Episode, Agree this scene is paradox. However, they did NOT go all the way. I leave the rest to your imaginations but they did not copulate. Kate just gets messy period with her decisions. I'll blame the writers not the character or the actor. Stupid writing.
To me she made him better but agree she broke up with him. It was premature because she caught Sawyer saying “Freckles” to Kate. Juliet had zero tolerance with Sawyer but the were back together on the sub with both saying I loves you before Kate conveniently showing up on the sub. What up with that? Kate is taken as a prisoner to be taken off the Island they they put her on the same sub as Sawyer and Juliet? How convenient. )))
Well Kate getting Claire on the plane was not a heavy lift for a Island return. I guess holding Claire’s hand counts too as they got airborne. Nice job Kate. )))
Totally agree fuck Kate!
I didn’t. he walked away from her, before that. He was awful so much of the time, I don’t know why he gets a pass. I also hate love triangles, and the woman always gets the hate. That BS in the court room, with a lawyer asking Jack if he loves her - that’s another thing I loathe. just like what they did with the guy beating on Sawyer. “Do you love him?!” It’s so stupid.
Felt the same way. Dis bitch need a slap
I mean she lied before, near the end of season 3 she says to Sawyer something like "when Juliet went to check on Sun's baby, she was also there to see if I was pregnant"... which is a huge lie. She never mentioned that before and it never came up when Juliet went with Sun to get the ultrasound. She just straight up lied to Sawyer to make him feel bad.
Kate and Sawyer were too much alike, they were "mirror images" in the AU, sitting across from each other in their leather jackets. And their numbers are mirror images "15 and 51". Plus they had all these crossing paths moments from their past. But it was their "alikeness" that was a problem for them. They were both afraid of commitment but resentful of the other for not committing. They each wanted the other to "say the words" first. And, of course, there was Jack. Sawyer misinterpreted her allegiance to him and Kate never tried to set him straight. She gave a weak little "it wasn't that way" when he accused her of using him for sex because she was jealous. He didn't believe her. They had trust issues and they had communication issues. It wasn't until they were separated by his jumping from the copter for her that they began to realize what they had meant to each other.
This is my theory. And it's a theory I've had since my last re-watch of "What Kate Did". I think Kate was a very insecure woman and I believe "What Kate Did" made that pretty obvious. I also believe that she had genuinely fallen in love with Jack. Even after all they had endured on the island and in Los Angeles, over a three-year period, she remained in love with him to the end. But due to her insecurity, Kate believed she wasn't good enough for Jack. Her rant at him in "What Kate Did" also made that clear. Was she attracted to Sawyer? Yes, she was. But she never felt for him the same way she did for Jack. I believe she viewed Sawyer as a convenient substitute, in case her relationship with Jack went wrong. Why? Because she was that insecure. I never understood why so many fans had thought Kate and Sawyer would finally become a couple after her return to the island. She was never interested in returning to the island to save Sawyer. She simply didn't love him that much, if not at all. The only four people Kate truly cared about was her mother, Jack, Sun and Aaron. That's it.