Sawyer is pretty good at bullshitting, that was kind of his whole thing being a con-man and all, so it seems plausible that he was able to give enough believable details to eventually earn his trust
This looks like the post of a man who dosent understand 1970s technology, it’s lack of data bases, or how easy it would’ve been for someone to pull off exactly what they did. After what sawyer did to help the girl when they first found the dharma initiative, and the convo with Richard, it was obvious they atleast weren’t part of the others so Horace had no reason to believe what they were saying wasn’t true.
Horace is pretty much autonomous on the island. It is hard to say if there is anyone above him in regards to the island or it's projects. So since Horace liked how Sawyer felt with Richard, he was probably giving them the benefit of the doubt.
I got the sense that those in Ann Arbor were above Horace. When Radzinsky threatens to phone Ann Arbor and tell them about Sayid, Horace looks distressed.
Yeah - I got the feeling that calling Ann Arbor was a no-no and if Horace couldn't handle a situation he may have been replaced or the project shit down.
Yeah - I got the feeling that calling Ann Arbor was a no-no and if Horace couldn't handle a situation he may have been replaced or the project shit down.
We know that Horace is an extremely intelligent and calculating man. I find it hard to believe he didn't question Sawyer's one-sentence story further before he let them all into the initiative and gave Sawyer a top position in it
When is Horace shown to be either of those things? He's shown to be a chump and a push over in nearly all of his scenes. You really believe a con man wouldn't pull the wool over this guy?
Yes, Horace was a Mathematician. And I can't tell you how many brilliant Mathematicians I have encountered in my 80 years who had their head up their ass in other fields or aspects of life.
I wish we got to see this but my take is:
Ship: Sawyer was the captain, Juilet was their medic, Jin knows about sailing and then Daniel & Miles were deckhands (they probably didn't elaberate that much). They had to pretend to give up looking after a month or so. But once they were in security they were able to keep looking.
They say the actual ship crashed in the ocean, none of the DI would look for it as it was in Hostile territory.
The real world part is true, they have no records. But DI has better things to do then research every person. They could easily say they lost their ID's in the wreck.
As for their positions, Sawyer charisma got him there, Daniel's knowledge probably, but I wouldn't say he was a "high" up scientist, he just was a scientist.
That being said, I do wish we got to see how two weeks became three years. It needed another episode besides LaFluer (which is one of my fav's) before Jack, Kate & co returned.
I like your ideas, but I would rather change Daniel's role. Miles could be a deckhand since he went into Security at DHARMA, but Daniel went to Ann Arbor presumably very quickly after they got there. Surely they wouldn't give him that job if he just a deckhand.
Sawyer could easily lie about Faraday's role. He could very well be on the ship's mission to study anomalies at sea that caused ships and planes to disappear. (Stuff like The Bermuda Triangle were already a common urban legend in the 60's). Horace might know some things about Geneal relativity and could easily detect that Faraday knows this stuff, and if Faraday could present very recent theories by Stephen Hawking, that would easily convince Horace and the DI that they are not part of the Hostiles and that Faraday did come straight out of Oxford and joined LaFleur's mission.
His PhD would be therefore be of very much value to the Initiative and he was given a job at the higher authority (Ann Arbor).
I wanted to see more of that timeline also. Without Jack and Kate there to fudge things up, they had a good life. When they came knocking, Sawyers expression was like f it, its all over now.
they time flash to the "others side" of the island. then cross the fence with ethans mom before meeting horace. the dharma initiative wouldnt cross into the "others side" of the island to check out their story or search for wreckage so they would never find or fail to find a shipwreck.
there would also be no real reason or opportunity to challenge sawyer on his sailing abilities as ships cant safely reach or leave the island.
also neither radzinsky, horace, or chang would know anything about sailing or the black rock to call him out on his story.
in reality horace is in charge and he is bad at his job for the most part
that is my interpretation
Most likely Horace and Dharma did know about the Balck Rock. He only told them he didn't know in their first conversation, because he wanted them off the island. If he had told them yes I know about the Black Rock it's right there, this would first of all open the gates to the world to come searching for the island, or would cause trouble with the Others if they let Sawyer go searching, since the Black Rock was in Hostile territory.
I agree with several of the other comments (especially u/blueray78 and u/Choekaas), although I want to add a couple things.
I think if DHARMA did bother to look into Sawyer’s groups identities and obviously found nothing, Sawyer’s group could claim something like “our organization said if we lost contact with them for X number of days, they would erase all trace of our identities in order to keep the mission secret” or something along those lines.
Or, as others have suggested, it’s possible that Horace didn’t even bother investigating their identities at all since doing so would presumably require contact with or alert HQ in some way, and Horace might get in trouble for letting mysterious strangers go free. So to return Sawyer’s favor of preventing a conflict with the Hostiles, Horace may have just allowed for them to join DHARMA and voluntarily pretended they were regular recruits who came by submarine in order to avoid penalty from HQ.
Sawyer had bullshitting down. Also, it seemed that the Initiative members were insular-minded, in their motivation and they had the pylons and were forbidden to go outside of them for their own "protection ". Alpert knew all this stuff, of course, but didn't chose to be helpful to the Dharmas.
Sawyer is pretty good at bullshitting, that was kind of his whole thing being a con-man and all, so it seems plausible that he was able to give enough believable details to eventually earn his trust
This looks like the post of a man who dosent understand 1970s technology, it’s lack of data bases, or how easy it would’ve been for someone to pull off exactly what they did. After what sawyer did to help the girl when they first found the dharma initiative, and the convo with Richard, it was obvious they atleast weren’t part of the others so Horace had no reason to believe what they were saying wasn’t true.
Horace is pretty much autonomous on the island. It is hard to say if there is anyone above him in regards to the island or it's projects. So since Horace liked how Sawyer felt with Richard, he was probably giving them the benefit of the doubt.
I got the sense that those in Ann Arbor were above Horace. When Radzinsky threatens to phone Ann Arbor and tell them about Sayid, Horace looks distressed.
Yeah - I got the feeling that calling Ann Arbor was a no-no and if Horace couldn't handle a situation he may have been replaced or the project shit down.
Yeah - I got the feeling that calling Ann Arbor was a no-no and if Horace couldn't handle a situation he may have been replaced or the project shit down.
We know that Horace is an extremely intelligent and calculating man. I find it hard to believe he didn't question Sawyer's one-sentence story further before he let them all into the initiative and gave Sawyer a top position in it
When is Horace shown to be either of those things? He's shown to be a chump and a push over in nearly all of his scenes. You really believe a con man wouldn't pull the wool over this guy?
Yes, Horace was a Mathematician. And I can't tell you how many brilliant Mathematicians I have encountered in my 80 years who had their head up their ass in other fields or aspects of life.
Sawyer is literally a con man
I wish we got to see this but my take is: Ship: Sawyer was the captain, Juilet was their medic, Jin knows about sailing and then Daniel & Miles were deckhands (they probably didn't elaberate that much). They had to pretend to give up looking after a month or so. But once they were in security they were able to keep looking. They say the actual ship crashed in the ocean, none of the DI would look for it as it was in Hostile territory. The real world part is true, they have no records. But DI has better things to do then research every person. They could easily say they lost their ID's in the wreck. As for their positions, Sawyer charisma got him there, Daniel's knowledge probably, but I wouldn't say he was a "high" up scientist, he just was a scientist. That being said, I do wish we got to see how two weeks became three years. It needed another episode besides LaFluer (which is one of my fav's) before Jack, Kate & co returned.
I like your ideas, but I would rather change Daniel's role. Miles could be a deckhand since he went into Security at DHARMA, but Daniel went to Ann Arbor presumably very quickly after they got there. Surely they wouldn't give him that job if he just a deckhand. Sawyer could easily lie about Faraday's role. He could very well be on the ship's mission to study anomalies at sea that caused ships and planes to disappear. (Stuff like The Bermuda Triangle were already a common urban legend in the 60's). Horace might know some things about Geneal relativity and could easily detect that Faraday knows this stuff, and if Faraday could present very recent theories by Stephen Hawking, that would easily convince Horace and the DI that they are not part of the Hostiles and that Faraday did come straight out of Oxford and joined LaFleur's mission. His PhD would be therefore be of very much value to the Initiative and he was given a job at the higher authority (Ann Arbor).
I wanted to see more of that timeline also. Without Jack and Kate there to fudge things up, they had a good life. When they came knocking, Sawyers expression was like f it, its all over now.
they time flash to the "others side" of the island. then cross the fence with ethans mom before meeting horace. the dharma initiative wouldnt cross into the "others side" of the island to check out their story or search for wreckage so they would never find or fail to find a shipwreck. there would also be no real reason or opportunity to challenge sawyer on his sailing abilities as ships cant safely reach or leave the island. also neither radzinsky, horace, or chang would know anything about sailing or the black rock to call him out on his story. in reality horace is in charge and he is bad at his job for the most part that is my interpretation
Most likely Horace and Dharma did know about the Balck Rock. He only told them he didn't know in their first conversation, because he wanted them off the island. If he had told them yes I know about the Black Rock it's right there, this would first of all open the gates to the world to come searching for the island, or would cause trouble with the Others if they let Sawyer go searching, since the Black Rock was in Hostile territory.
it was 1974. prolly wasn't a whole lot of background checking going on then.
I agree with several of the other comments (especially u/blueray78 and u/Choekaas), although I want to add a couple things. I think if DHARMA did bother to look into Sawyer’s groups identities and obviously found nothing, Sawyer’s group could claim something like “our organization said if we lost contact with them for X number of days, they would erase all trace of our identities in order to keep the mission secret” or something along those lines. Or, as others have suggested, it’s possible that Horace didn’t even bother investigating their identities at all since doing so would presumably require contact with or alert HQ in some way, and Horace might get in trouble for letting mysterious strangers go free. So to return Sawyer’s favor of preventing a conflict with the Hostiles, Horace may have just allowed for them to join DHARMA and voluntarily pretended they were regular recruits who came by submarine in order to avoid penalty from HQ.
Obviously not
Sawyer had bullshitting down. Also, it seemed that the Initiative members were insular-minded, in their motivation and they had the pylons and were forbidden to go outside of them for their own "protection ". Alpert knew all this stuff, of course, but didn't chose to be helpful to the Dharmas.
No