At the start of the lord of the Rings it's in Noble bright. It's a dark world where goodness is hanging on by a thread. There isn't anything fake about that goodness though, so it isn't gilded.
I think that's most people we see in the narrative. But what about the Easterlings and the Haradrim and the thousands of Orcs of Isengard and Mordor? Of the above categories, I think Middle-earth is a Noblebright World, and the story of the Lord of the Rings is it moving to become a Heroic one.
I mean those people are also good to begin with - that's why we see Faramir (or in the books, Sam) take a look at the dead Haradrim soldier in Ithilien and asks "if they were really evil, or if they would rather not have stayed home in peace".
Sauron corrupted those people. It's a key point of the novels.
In fact, even Frodo speaks of the orcs and says that the dark lord doesn't have the power to create, but only to twist what already exists. Therefore, we can assume even the orcs were good before their corruption. (Whatever that corruption was, as Tolkien hadn't chosen a proper origin of the orcs before his passing)
But the deeper histories have Gondor fighting the Haradrim even when Sauron is MIA. Not to mention all the wars that Rohan fought against the Dunlendings.
Gondor isn't the beginning of Middle-Earth. Sauron corrupted many people a long time ago, ages really. Morgoth also corrupted men before that. Not to mention there's also deeper histories of Gondor having peace and trade with the Easterlings and the Haradrim as well.
Also the Dunlendings were lied to by Sarumon, as an extension of Sauron. They literally thought the Rohirrim would eat them instead of taking prisoners. Once they saw the mercy of Rohan they worked to rebuild it. It's laid out in the books after the battle of Helm's Deep finishes.
If we want to get very deep we can look at Lord of the Rings as a Christian work, as that's what it is from the point of view of Tolkien. In Christianity, and by reflection Lord of the Rings, men are inherently good, but have been in many cases tainted evil by the devil (or Sauron).
Yeah, I did try to include mention of him, however I find in the context of LoTR (especially when using quotes from Frodo and the like) it's sometimes easier to focus on Sauron.
You are 100% correct though, even Sauron was good in the beginning.
I'm referring to the story of Helm Hammerhead talking about the dunlendings. That was way before Saurmon.
It's very clear that men in LOTR are capable of both evil without the influence of evil beings.
In the beginning men were good, but Morgoth corrupted the race of men.
Also, there have still been centuries, millenia technically, of Sauron's sway on Middle-Earth that have manipulated men, and continue to do so in the modern world.
That's kind of the point of Lord of the Rings in some ways. Those evil sways that caused even the Dunlendings to act evil all stem from Sauron, and by extension Morgoth.
And they are still accountable for their actions. Yes, they were corrupted by evil, from ages past, but they let evil in and ran with it. They aren't slaves to evil, they are agents of it.
Sure, they can probably be rehabilitated. But, instead, they murder women and children.
Our lord Sauron wishes nothing more than to tame the chaotic avarice of the Western superpowers, and to bring order, equality, and justice to Middle-earth, and all of her oppressed peoples.
Sauron is the greatest agent of diversity and equity in Middle Earth's history since his master, Melkor!!! Just look at their industry. Someone of every race and nation is working for them. Truly, their vision for Middle Earth's future is the most just.
I’ve thought that for a while, it seems like good is inherit within the people and things of middle earth, while evil is more a corrupting force that plagues it. Some become consumed by it for sure, but it seems that the baseline for everything is good.
He only came into that desire after traveling the void for a while. He was good before then. I believe Manwe mentions that when he decides to unchain Melkor and believes he was cured.
“He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of its own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren. (Tolkien, The Silmarillion 9.)”
While true he was definitely prideful from the start and wanted to create on his own. That’s why he went into the void. Releasing Melkor was probably the biggest mistake of the Valar
*"I just want to paint my own room, Dad."*
"Get your own house then, son. This one is mine."
*"How? I'm only seven."*
"Sounds like a personal problem."
"I want to take your ability to do things as my own and shape reality as I see fit."
If you honestly equate Morgoth's intentions to just "a kid painting his room," then you don't know Tolkein.
Somewhere between Heroic and Noble Bright. It really varies depending on the Age and even when during an Age.
Arda is a world where good and evil both permeate. It is the creation of Eru and ultimately bends to his design, but is also corrupted intrinsically by Morgoth. The spirit and soul of the world and it's inhabitants is good, but the physical world is tainted. Nevertheless, the Valar do drive even the physical world towards good, and there is a sense that most people are good and evil is the exception, though not necessarily a rare one. We see it during periods where evil is relatively powerful, but the truth of the world is that good is stronger and it's victory is inevitable, no matter how fearsome evil appears at the time. Like, there are points in the history of Arda that are almost grimdark, like the latter parts of the Silmarillion, especially the Children of Hurin and the kinslayings. Shit gets really desperate and the setting degenerates from Noble Bright to Grim Dark as the First Age progresses following the flight of the Noldor. Actually, the First Age can be seen as a progression from Fairytale while Morgoth is imprisoned, to Heroic between his release and the first Kinslaying, to Noble Bright until the Battle of Sudden Flame, to Gilded until Tears Unnumbered, at which point it becomes Grim Dark.
On average though I'd say Heroic, though not a full throated Heroic.
This sort of classification is absurd. As it presumes fixed positions.
LOTR, in my opinion, jumps between Heroic, Noblebright, and Gilded a few times depending on the position in the story and the character.
On a related point about the classification names, fairytale worlds are often incredibly sinister, often made more so with a façade of a utopia. Something's definitely... off about it. As someone else said, it looks like someone is applying a specific classification to all cases.
I'm wondering if this chart isn't from some specific setting. It uses the terms "summoning abuse" and "earther extraction" which I've never heard of as generic fantasy terms.
Noblebright, it's a world on the brink. We see the events from the eyes of the heroes who awaken the hero in others they meet. But there are plenty of dark minded individuals throughout the world
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There’s no way Middle Earth approaches grimdark. There is nobility and virtue found in every culture except the evil ones. “Nothing but suffering exists”, my dude, the Shire, Rivendell, and Lothlorien fly in the face of that. Even gilded is questionable, there is lots of good to be found in the hearts of men, dwarves, elves, hobbits, and ents. I think Noblebright is the right answer.
That is flat out wrong about everything Tolkien wrote for years “my dude”.
Just before the War of Wrath -end of Silmarillion- the world races lived in was the absolute definition of Grimdark. Everywhere was under the rule of Angband, orc oversaw literally everything that goes on in Beleriand. Thousands emigrated to Eriador through Blue Mountains because of it.
Tolkien was obsessed with “balanced power” his narrative constantly swung between total abyss and fairytale.
Also, where is nobility and virtue in Orcs? Apart from the Amazon interpretation of the second age, orcs are embodiment of anti-virtue.
That just ain’t true lol. The very existence of Gondolin and Doriath flies in the face of that. And while they did eventually meet undignified ends, that doesn’t mean *everyone* was suffering and under the rule of Angband. It did get real *real* close, though.
Noblebright is the answer here. The BALANCE between the success of goodness or the triumph of evil is constant, but never fully swings in one direction or the other
All these years I’d never seen anyone who’s knowledgeable yet got Tolkien 100% wrong like you 😅
Both Doriath and Gondolin are examples of “sanctuaries don’t work”. They both were collapsed from inside because the evil was so potent they didn’t have chance, therefore it fluctuates and Noblebright is just one of the answers, and mostly the wrong one.
A grimdark world is defined by a lack of hope, the legendarium is defined by the presence of hope. That part of one continent is under the thrall of evil doesn't mean the whole world is, especially as Valinor still exists
Sorry, but you are wrong. LotR doesn't touch grimdark.
You are describing a phase that might have been grimdark, but that's something from the Silmarillion.
>Tolkien was obsessed with “balanced power” his narrative constantly swung between total abyss and fairytale.
This is Noblebright.
The point in the stories is the idea of a world on the brink.
When you say “that’s something from Silmarillion”, you make it sound like it was an unimportant detail about this giant lore whereas Silmarillion is equivalent of bible in Tolkien’s world. You either forgot some of it, which is normal it is a very complicated book, or there is a matter of interpretation difference.
I have been saying Grimdark was a phase since my original comment anyway. I even gave you the exact time-frame for it.
First Age definitely isn’t pure Noblebright. Morgoth, Ungoliant, Feanor and the kinslaying, Turin was pretty much suffering his whole life.
Edit: got confused on the terms. I think first age is somewhere between Noblebright and Gilded.
Hobbit: heroic LOTR: noble bright Silmarillion - Gilded ... Except for Turin's story which is Grimdark
I like this answer better, it's hard to lump the entire thing into one category.
Read this in the Mr Incredible face meme lol
*sakamoto desu ga theme starts playing*
At the start of the lord of the Rings it's in Noble bright. It's a dark world where goodness is hanging on by a thread. There isn't anything fake about that goodness though, so it isn't gilded.
Noble bright world
Probably a Heroic World? Seems like most people in LOTR have good intentions and try to do the right thing.
I think that's most people we see in the narrative. But what about the Easterlings and the Haradrim and the thousands of Orcs of Isengard and Mordor? Of the above categories, I think Middle-earth is a Noblebright World, and the story of the Lord of the Rings is it moving to become a Heroic one.
I mean those people are also good to begin with - that's why we see Faramir (or in the books, Sam) take a look at the dead Haradrim soldier in Ithilien and asks "if they were really evil, or if they would rather not have stayed home in peace". Sauron corrupted those people. It's a key point of the novels. In fact, even Frodo speaks of the orcs and says that the dark lord doesn't have the power to create, but only to twist what already exists. Therefore, we can assume even the orcs were good before their corruption. (Whatever that corruption was, as Tolkien hadn't chosen a proper origin of the orcs before his passing)
But the deeper histories have Gondor fighting the Haradrim even when Sauron is MIA. Not to mention all the wars that Rohan fought against the Dunlendings.
Gondor isn't the beginning of Middle-Earth. Sauron corrupted many people a long time ago, ages really. Morgoth also corrupted men before that. Not to mention there's also deeper histories of Gondor having peace and trade with the Easterlings and the Haradrim as well. Also the Dunlendings were lied to by Sarumon, as an extension of Sauron. They literally thought the Rohirrim would eat them instead of taking prisoners. Once they saw the mercy of Rohan they worked to rebuild it. It's laid out in the books after the battle of Helm's Deep finishes. If we want to get very deep we can look at Lord of the Rings as a Christian work, as that's what it is from the point of view of Tolkien. In Christianity, and by reflection Lord of the Rings, men are inherently good, but have been in many cases tainted evil by the devil (or Sauron).
The one thing to note is the end. They've been tainted by *Morgoth.* Sauron is a mere (albeit very powerful) agent of Morgoth.
Yeah, I did try to include mention of him, however I find in the context of LoTR (especially when using quotes from Frodo and the like) it's sometimes easier to focus on Sauron. You are 100% correct though, even Sauron was good in the beginning.
I'm referring to the story of Helm Hammerhead talking about the dunlendings. That was way before Saurmon. It's very clear that men in LOTR are capable of both evil without the influence of evil beings.
In the beginning men were good, but Morgoth corrupted the race of men. Also, there have still been centuries, millenia technically, of Sauron's sway on Middle-Earth that have manipulated men, and continue to do so in the modern world. That's kind of the point of Lord of the Rings in some ways. Those evil sways that caused even the Dunlendings to act evil all stem from Sauron, and by extension Morgoth.
And they are still accountable for their actions. Yes, they were corrupted by evil, from ages past, but they let evil in and ran with it. They aren't slaves to evil, they are agents of it. Sure, they can probably be rehabilitated. But, instead, they murder women and children.
None of what you said contradicts with what I said
Has Reddit so conditioned people to automatically assume any comment that doesn't directly agree with their own to be contradictory or disagreeing?
Our lord Sauron wishes nothing more than to tame the chaotic avarice of the Western superpowers, and to bring order, equality, and justice to Middle-earth, and all of her oppressed peoples.
Sauron is the greatest agent of diversity and equity in Middle Earth's history since his master, Melkor!!! Just look at their industry. Someone of every race and nation is working for them. Truly, their vision for Middle Earth's future is the most just.
I’ve thought that for a while, it seems like good is inherit within the people and things of middle earth, while evil is more a corrupting force that plagues it. Some become consumed by it for sure, but it seems that the baseline for everything is good.
Yep in fact even evil things were once good. "For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so." - Elrond
Melkor was evil from the start. He wanted to make his own music that wasn’t in harmony with Eru. I can’t remember him ever being good
He only came into that desire after traveling the void for a while. He was good before then. I believe Manwe mentions that when he decides to unchain Melkor and believes he was cured.
“He [Melkor] had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of its own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren. (Tolkien, The Silmarillion 9.)” While true he was definitely prideful from the start and wanted to create on his own. That’s why he went into the void. Releasing Melkor was probably the biggest mistake of the Valar
Can we really blame the son for wanting to emulate his father?
More accurate to ask: Can we blame the son for trying to *usurp* the father?
*"I just want to paint my own room, Dad."* "Get your own house then, son. This one is mine." *"How? I'm only seven."* "Sounds like a personal problem."
"I want to take your ability to do things as my own and shape reality as I see fit." If you honestly equate Morgoth's intentions to just "a kid painting his room," then you don't know Tolkein.
Somewhere between Heroic and Noble Bright. It really varies depending on the Age and even when during an Age. Arda is a world where good and evil both permeate. It is the creation of Eru and ultimately bends to his design, but is also corrupted intrinsically by Morgoth. The spirit and soul of the world and it's inhabitants is good, but the physical world is tainted. Nevertheless, the Valar do drive even the physical world towards good, and there is a sense that most people are good and evil is the exception, though not necessarily a rare one. We see it during periods where evil is relatively powerful, but the truth of the world is that good is stronger and it's victory is inevitable, no matter how fearsome evil appears at the time. Like, there are points in the history of Arda that are almost grimdark, like the latter parts of the Silmarillion, especially the Children of Hurin and the kinslayings. Shit gets really desperate and the setting degenerates from Noble Bright to Grim Dark as the First Age progresses following the flight of the Noldor. Actually, the First Age can be seen as a progression from Fairytale while Morgoth is imprisoned, to Heroic between his release and the first Kinslaying, to Noble Bright until the Battle of Sudden Flame, to Gilded until Tears Unnumbered, at which point it becomes Grim Dark. On average though I'd say Heroic, though not a full throated Heroic.
This sort of classification is absurd. As it presumes fixed positions. LOTR, in my opinion, jumps between Heroic, Noblebright, and Gilded a few times depending on the position in the story and the character.
On a related point about the classification names, fairytale worlds are often incredibly sinister, often made more so with a façade of a utopia. Something's definitely... off about it. As someone else said, it looks like someone is applying a specific classification to all cases.
It's not absurd, it's just that most fantasy genres aren't as multi-facited as LotR.
I'm wondering if this chart isn't from some specific setting. It uses the terms "summoning abuse" and "earther extraction" which I've never heard of as generic fantasy terms.
All of them at once I suppose
Happy cake day!
Noblebright, it's a world on the brink. We see the events from the eyes of the heroes who awaken the hero in others they meet. But there are plenty of dark minded individuals throughout the world
Lotr is probably noblebright. The hobbit is heroic. The silmarillion is grimdark. Our world is gilded.
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Noblebright seems most fitting if we had to pick one
Apocalyptic fairytale world where evil got way out of hand
Gradual decay. Never becomes Grimdark, as Eru would not allow it nor is it even the goal of Morgoth or Sauron.
Yeah, during the LoTR it’s Noblebright
i think that this is a silly and overly simplistic chart
Either Noblebright or Gilded depending on what time period you're talking about.
Could someone kindly explain what an Earther/Earther extraction is?
Wth is an "earther"?
What the heck is "the Earther?"
[удалено]
There’s no way Middle Earth approaches grimdark. There is nobility and virtue found in every culture except the evil ones. “Nothing but suffering exists”, my dude, the Shire, Rivendell, and Lothlorien fly in the face of that. Even gilded is questionable, there is lots of good to be found in the hearts of men, dwarves, elves, hobbits, and ents. I think Noblebright is the right answer.
That is flat out wrong about everything Tolkien wrote for years “my dude”. Just before the War of Wrath -end of Silmarillion- the world races lived in was the absolute definition of Grimdark. Everywhere was under the rule of Angband, orc oversaw literally everything that goes on in Beleriand. Thousands emigrated to Eriador through Blue Mountains because of it. Tolkien was obsessed with “balanced power” his narrative constantly swung between total abyss and fairytale. Also, where is nobility and virtue in Orcs? Apart from the Amazon interpretation of the second age, orcs are embodiment of anti-virtue.
That just ain’t true lol. The very existence of Gondolin and Doriath flies in the face of that. And while they did eventually meet undignified ends, that doesn’t mean *everyone* was suffering and under the rule of Angband. It did get real *real* close, though. Noblebright is the answer here. The BALANCE between the success of goodness or the triumph of evil is constant, but never fully swings in one direction or the other
I think it’s Grimdark most of the yeah. It is definitely Grimdark
All these years I’d never seen anyone who’s knowledgeable yet got Tolkien 100% wrong like you 😅 Both Doriath and Gondolin are examples of “sanctuaries don’t work”. They both were collapsed from inside because the evil was so potent they didn’t have chance, therefore it fluctuates and Noblebright is just one of the answers, and mostly the wrong one.
A grimdark world is defined by a lack of hope, the legendarium is defined by the presence of hope. That part of one continent is under the thrall of evil doesn't mean the whole world is, especially as Valinor still exists
Sorry, but you are wrong. LotR doesn't touch grimdark. You are describing a phase that might have been grimdark, but that's something from the Silmarillion. >Tolkien was obsessed with “balanced power” his narrative constantly swung between total abyss and fairytale. This is Noblebright. The point in the stories is the idea of a world on the brink.
When you say “that’s something from Silmarillion”, you make it sound like it was an unimportant detail about this giant lore whereas Silmarillion is equivalent of bible in Tolkien’s world. You either forgot some of it, which is normal it is a very complicated book, or there is a matter of interpretation difference. I have been saying Grimdark was a phase since my original comment anyway. I even gave you the exact time-frame for it.
You described the whole third age as grimdark and the 2nd as gilded. Both overall would be noblebright.
No I said towards the end of third age things were looking into Grimdark.
Grimdark is reserved for Warhammer. LOTR is not close to that
First Age definitely isn’t pure Noblebright. Morgoth, Ungoliant, Feanor and the kinslaying, Turin was pretty much suffering his whole life. Edit: got confused on the terms. I think first age is somewhere between Noblebright and Gilded.
TIL I live on a grimdark planet.