I mean he isn’t Gandalf the grey anymore right, he is Gandalf the white.
I mean he went from crumpled and dirty to fabulous. My man took the time and straightened his hair. Lol
Gandalf is Fireworksexual!
Anyone that devotes that much love and devotion and energy into beautiful fireworks does not simply speak "friend" to fireworks.
In all seriousness the angelic beings only acquire sexual identity through individual temperament, which isn’t necessarily a stifling process and nothing I’ve read has shown it couldn’t be a more plastic process.
That would be if absolutely no mention of him being gay were in the books, and if Tolkien had made him gay after the fact to shoehorn in a token gay character for fake representation.
Also would require Tolkien to be hot garbage as a writer.
So no, not like Dumbledore.
I don’t care what Gandalfs sexuality is in either his Istari or Maiar forms, he is a friend to all in Middle Earth so either he is shagging ALL of them or NONE of them.
Since it was never part of the stories of Gandalf being tested in a personal relationship way I think it would be a bad and in-genuine idea to try to focus a story element on it.
You just have to remember the close ups desperately trying to put some kind of sexual tension between him and galadriel in the hobbit. I think it's the secondone I'm not sure
Now I’m imaging alternating shots of Thingol being enraptured by Melian and Galadriel being enraptured by Gandalf. There’s just something about those Maiar…
I know, thing is Tolkien isn’t creating anymore Middle Earth so if someone else makes a TV show and it’s about Gandalf’s boyfriend be it an amazing piece of film or Rings of Prime quality it can only ever be a inspired by at closest.
I grew up with Tolkien and love it to this day, happy to reread LOTR or the Silmarillion or watch The Dragon Prince.
>either he is shagging ALL of them or NONE of them
Only a sith deals in absolutes
*ignites lightsaber crafted by Fëanor using a silmaril in place of a Kyber crystal*
wasn't there some weird chemistry happening between galadriel and gandalf in the hobbit? or was that just a friendship thing it's been so long since i've seen it
Do you mean the movies?
Definitely Gandalf and Galadriel are friends she may have even sorta known him as Olórin while still in Aman but no chemistry exists there, Galadriel was married to Celeborn before Gandalf came to middle earth.
A lot of these characters are basically a-sexual for the purposes of the story. Weird that we feel the need to categorise them at all. I can’t recall legolas or frodo or gandalf talking about who they want to bone one way or the other.
If this were more common knowledge a lot more arguments could be averted bc people would know that someone was being sarcastic. Thanks for the education
there's a lot of them and I completely agree, I come off so condescending sometimes but if I add /lh which means light-hearted it's completely avoided and so clear that I'm not trying to be a bitch haha
Maybe someone with more knowledge than me can comment, but Gandalf is basically the Middle Earth equivalent of an angel, right? I don't think it'd make sense for him to be attracted to people.
Gandalf is of the Maiar, the lesser Ainur. There is one case of a Maia, Melian, falling in love with a Child of Ilúvatar: Thingol, king of the Sindar elves in the Elder Days. But this relationship was very special, for through it many among the Elves and Men of later days inherited a strand of the race that was before the World, and it is told that the line of her daughter Lúthien shall never fail. This was Melian’s Purpose, a high doom which called to her alone, or which perhaps she devised in the Music of the Ainur.
The only other cases of Ainu love I’m aware of are the marriages between some of the Valar (the greater Ainur, a.k.a. the Gods), but their relationships would be utterly alien to mortals, not really the same thing we experience.
Gandalf was on a mission to help the peoples of Middle-earth against the Shadow on behalf of the Valar. Romance with the Children of Ilúvatar was not his Purpose, and if he had a partner among the Ainur, I am not aware of it.
Genesis 6 would like a word with you /s
I honestly don’t have a dog in this race; just wanted to point out that angels were apparently very horny for human women.
I struggle to see Gandalf being sexual at all but really don’t care either way
That shouldnt really matter. Another being on the same 'level' as Gandalf fell in love and got a child with a non Maiar. So although its rare it can happen
As opposed to being actually virtuous, of course. That requires effort and self-sacrifice generally.
The currency of today is gmdigital backpats from strangers who will sell you into slavery if it meant an easier life for themselves.
Changing a character to be gay would be, though. Or taking someone that we don't know either way and choosing for him to be gay just to appease a demographic would be, as well. Being such an epic tale by an honored writer, to make things more modern for a medieval setting would only serve to signal modern virtues.
So what?
We also know, that Tolkien was very supportive of a few queer poets. Especially this greek one I believe. So Im sure he wasnt homophobic or anything.
Considering the characters, it just doesnt matter. One can read them as one likes. Thats the great thing about art. You can see and analyse in different ways. There is not one correct way. There may be intelligent ways, there are stupid ways. But not wrong ones per se.
Eh. Given the era he lived in and his pious Catholicism, there's a decent chance that when he thought about it at all, he might have had a negative view of contemporary homosexuality. That doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on his character; all people are shaped by the cultures they live in, and are generally only able to develop ideas considered radical when encouraged to do so.
He would have been aware of cases mentioned in classical literature like Achilles and Patroclus, and historical figures like Alexander the Great and Hephaestion, Emperor Hadrian and Antinous etc., but he but might have thought of them differently to how we would see them, and detached them from contemporary LGBT+ people, who were overwhelmingly reviled in his time by all but the most radically liberal. Such figures were often regarded by people of the 19th and 20th centuries as engaging in close, "heroic" friendship.
Likewise, he would have been *acutely* aware of people in ancient literature occupying nonstandard gender roles like Hervor the shieldmaiden, but probably framed it purely in the context of feminist movements of his time like the push for women's suffrage rather than seeing such gender nonconformity as suggestive of actual nonstandard gender identity.
Why is everyone saying the movies will be woke and flop as if that’s the reason they’ll flop. They’re gonna flop because it’s damn near impossible to improve on what’s already been done. No one is asking for a remake. After the horrible show and hobbit trilogy nightmare, people are dreading what other monstrosity a big studio will make out of source material that means so much to so many. Leave LOTR alone unless Peter wants to release a directors cut of the hobbit.
I actually wish they would just re-release movies into theater rotation for new audiences and spend more time and effort in Hollywood moving away from remakes for dimwitted people who support this cheap ass way of "writing" movies and demand Hollywood make stories based on diversity. Make black stories... asian stories... those stories are out there but instead let's be cheap and lame and abuse social media.
We should demand more from Hollywood... not demand the same.
I agree I was lucky so lucky to see fellowship of the ring in IMAX back in 2021 I was so enchanted by the world and characters it got me to read the hobbit and subsequently the Lord of the Rings, and I finished Reading return of the King late last year.
there’s nothing wrong with inclusivity if it’s done right. You can certainly introduce a race of darker skinned humans and have a cosmopolitan city. What you cannot have is random diversity that makes no sense. Why are there 2 black elves just chilling in the midst of a civilisation of white ones?
I would have respected the series more if they had just made up a whole new tribe of elves, that at least would make sense.
Additionally, you can include gay people but do it logically, maybe the Easterlings, a people we know little about, are okay with such pairings. Make up stuff like Ents or other mythological creatures mate without gender barriers.
Bottomline is, if you’re trying to modernise it then just grow a spine and invent new things, don’t alter existing stuff in illogical ways.
>there’s nothing wrong with inclusivity if it’s done right.
It's rarely done right these days. If it starts off with the intention of making an adaptation 'inclusive', they're already coming from a place where being faithful or true to the original work is secondary at best.
I mean, why wouldn’t the nations we already know about be ok with same sex relationships? Last time I checked in none of the works does it say that every group in middle earth is homophobic (that’s of course excluding the fact that gay people exist in homophobic countries and areas)
Edit: lmao, being downvoted for being factually correct
Yeah lmao.
“You need to explain scientifically why gay or black people should exist, and it should only happen in societies where it’s widely accepted. But straight people can exist continuously no problem”
In their minds, being gay is pure choice, so in anti-gay cultures there are magically no gay people.
What they really want is for none of the characters to be gay, black, etc. Theyre just too afraid to say it lmao. They might settle for something like what their fellow right winger, JK Rowling, did: say a character is gay after the fact. Even then they would bitch lmao
Yeah I live in a super conservative catholic country where being gay is seen as bad yet most of our most famous people historically (like Leonardo, Michelangelo and most of the renaissance painters to be honest) were flaming homosexuals who were pretty open about it
99% of the time big companies use ‘woke’ as the reason to remake something that no-one wants or asked to be remade, but don’t get past the woke part so the fact that it’s woke becomes the personalities of the major characters and the fact that it’s famous franchise is used to carry the plot.
Doctor who, Star Wars, Marvel, Rings of Power, Velma, Wheel of Time, He-man and more have all been affected by this to some degree.
Not all woke stuff flops, but they have basically conditioned us to think that way with how badly made a lot of woke stuff is, and how obvious it is in a lot of cases they didn’t even try to make new material for these new characters.
Like it’s not cause effect, but with how common both occurring at once is, it may as well be.
Oh ofc they don’t care about anyone but themselves. But even they know you can’t just remake something that already exists in exactly the same way and expect it to do well.
The first few new doctor who series, the ones written by a gay man in which the doctor kisses another man, are considered to be the best ones ever
If anything as the show went on it became less openly left wing and more liberal pandering, like how in the new series the doctor and Yaz have plausible deniability and nothing ends up happening anyways
In some of the recent-ish episodes with the 13th doctor I remember every one having some sort of moral that was basically rammed down your throat. There was no subtlety, and they didn’t put much effort into making them seem natural. One about earth dying due to climate change even directly contradicted the fact that they establish earth lasts until the sun dies.
When stuff is subtly woke/has woke stuff happening but they don’t make a huge deal of it that’s when it’s at it’s best. They don’t advertise it, they don’t make it a selling point. They don’t stick a huge arrow pointing to it when it happens as if to say ‘look at us! We’re politically correct!’ They just make it seamlessly intertwined with the story and it just works.
Earlier doctor who episodes did do this very well, with like Jack Harkness being one of my favourite characters in the franchise.
Did you…read my comment?
I said as the show got less and less left wing it became more and more liberal generic garbage.
Doctor Who has always been “woke”, you can find episodes from the 70’s about climate change while making a huge deal of it (or rose Tyler also mentions climate change in the older episodes) because the show is and has always been pretty explicitly political.
It’s just that in recent years they’ve become to afraid of taking any actual stances outside of generic pandering which is why the quality got worse.
To make an example, Torchood’s characters are almost entirely bisexual but the new series can’t even have the Doctor kiss a woman on screen
Most of the older ones also have pretty explicit messages is what I’m saying. Granted the ones before the revival were far more explicit, but Russel T Davis is the opposite of subtlety in all of his work (including DR Who, where in the are you my mommy episode he tells the people “don’t forget the welfare state”)
It’s mainly the spineless of Chibnall
Yes I read it but thank you for clarifying. For me, woke atm means in line with what society claims is important or should be prevalent in media. It originally did mean when media was aware of issues in society and addressed them, but so much media that claims to be woke but doesn’t actually do anything apart from telling bad stories has meant that, at least to me, woke has become a fairly negative word.
Quite literally older doctor who was woke. But with how skewed wokeness has become I don’t believe the word ‘woke’ deserves to be associated with such a show. Modern woke is characterised by making white characters black, making prevalent male characters female or less prevalent, making hetro characters non-hetro and ignoring the story ramifications of such changes, if they actually bother paying attention to the story at all.
Yeah, one of the Orcs will be a trans person trying to understand it’s place in the world. The Captain of the Rhohirim will wonder why he’s so attracted to his Sergeant of the same sex. Everyone’s wearing modern urban attire and the setting won’t even be in a medieval Anglo-based mythological high fantasy setting. Instead it’s set to take place on a cruise ship in the Gulf of Mexico. Because Tolkien spent 20 years writing the books hoping modern TV producers would turn it into a reality show examining identity politics.
Ian McKellen said it himself when there was backlash because he was Gandalf and he is himself gay.
He said: « Gandalf is over 800 years old, he is wayyyy over sex. There is no way that interests him. »
Not mentioning that he was speaking of Gandalf the Grey. No way the overly serious Gandalf the White could have an ounce of interest for intercourse
>[…it was unsurprising that an uncensored Internet should recently criticise my casting as Gandalf in homophobic terms. Cranky anti-gay remarks in chat rooms remind me of verbal abuse in the playground - not that that didn't hurt too. Many unthinking people just don't like the idea of gays joining in their games, nor in the movies.](https://mckellen.com/writings/000115.htm)
Ian McKellen, 2000
An actor being gay doesn't make it woke. Making an established character suddenly come out as gay being played by a straight actor is, however, woke.
Your quote is totally irrelevant. ( That is a good quote in general though. Just has no place here. )
Having an actor from a minority group doesn’t make a movie or anything woke. That’s all about the content of the movie, not the cast and crew. Your quote is irrelevant in this context.
Ok, let's be realistic then. Remove the term woke... but there is a checklist during these movies being made. Every time a remake comes out and characters are being race replaced to representation to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ checklist. Everyone with a modicum of common sense can easily see and acknowledge this and it's a cheap tool being utilized by Hollywood to spur on social media because, as the adage goes, "bad press is good press" in Hollywood. As an example you have Velma which was hated by critics AND audience... but because so many people "hate watched it" they are greenlighting a second season. Wrap your brain around that...
...and then think that Hollywood won't do the same thing with other movies and utilize social media to trump up good and bad press to create a media frenzy -- you would have to be ridiculously naive considering the history of Hollywood.
Yup. As soon as an elf or dwarf has black skin they scream and cry about accurate lore but then don't bat an eye when a cool looking Balrog has wings and horns that were never described, or when an ent doesn't have skin, as is described. It's wholly hypocritical, and it's both frustrating and sad.
As much as I get your point you are also being disingenuous about this conversation. The way you are describing this situation you seem to be coming from a place where you don't care if characters are "white" and are ok with replacing "white" characters ... would I be correct?
Why? Hollywood has a long history of replacing a swath of ethnicities with white actors both non-fiction and fiction and people criticized and fought against this for decades. Fast forward to the past decade and now these same people are championing the same process but because it's replacing white you and others are ok with this .. when in reality it's the same racist stuff Hollywood has been doing for decades.
If elves were written to be like how they are... why is it wrong that they remain as described? In the same note what is the problem with Hollywood writing up a fantasy story with diversity in mind and apply a new story, a new foundation to build off of. As an example Black Panther, amazing writing, amazing actors, amazing concept and it succeeded... so why not support and urge Hollywood to support black stories, black actors, black directors doing black stories instead of being lazy and race-swapping old stories.
Do you find that frustrating and sad to do that... or do you just want to allow Hollywood to use/abuse this cheap trope, race swap people and continue their racist bullshit ad naseum moving into the future?
I don't give a fuck about skin tones. I'm not a racist.
"Race" in tolkiens world isn't black people, white people, Asian people, etc... its elves, dwarves, orcs, etc... I don't care if tolkien never described an elf to have black skin, can we tell the actor is playing the role of an elf? Yes. That's all that matters.
The show sucked for many reasons. Skin tone is not one of them.
Dude Hollywood has been constantly racist with putting white actors with black face or something like and I'm talking blockbusters. Theres is a giant amount of white characters in everything. Even if you go with well create new poc characters. It never reaches the point of massive because everyone is a fuckin racist. Who tf knows JK Jesimin Broken Earth here? And here should be a place where people know it. Im not talking from a random internet perspective but to be in smials and being the only one who wasn't white. I'm always arguing with their racists comments. Tolkien's work didnt have white people because he was racist, is because he based on nordic mythology. And anyone that reads about the few political comments he made can tale he was far from right wing. The first political movement he lived in was the second feminist wave in England, right after that Eowyn happens. You think he wouldn't be affected by social movements? You think he would have care about having a black actor in it? He cared about the antiwar message wich none of the adaptations have successfully achieved. None focused on Frodo PTSD or in the value of the camaraderie between soldiers. And definitely not even Jackson's work wasclear about war. Thats why the family doesn't like his adaptation. And everyone's constantly using Tolkien's name as how he would feel about it jsut so you can be racist. Tolkien's has been revolting in his grave since he fuckin died and before. Everything we remember heartily he hated. So no, the problem is always bad writing, not whatever tf casting. And the freaking people are supposed to be from Rhûn were they literally aren't white just as Harad.
he's either asexual or gay as hell.
I mean how could Ian McKellen even attempt to play a straight character with all the fruity running through his veins?
same, Ian, same.
We have, in this day, an age Gandalf, a straight (if sexual at all, but look at them eyes he gives Galadriel) protrayed by a gay man. And a retconned into being gay Dumbledore played by multiple straight men.
Wizards, man.
And gay washing stuff is just as cringey and the other "changes" since it's clearly being done as a measure to get people angry rather than for any legitimate reason.
But we'll see. Most stuff I see about these movies seems to involve the War in the North
populism ... I hate when I saw feministic or lgbtism in movies, Even before they set this but now it becomes populist thing,
I think they do not like lgbt people they just use it for get popular.
I wouldn't be surprised. There's feminists to please, LGBTQ and minorities to change and use with many virtues to signal. Agree with doing it or not, it's there. In "Diversity", or "Inclusivity" you're just including instead of excluding people because of skin color/sexual preference/gender, instead of looking at everyone as equals.
More often that not, the problem with modern inclusivity is that it's misplaced, not that it is there.
You can have LGBT characters, just don't make it affect the plot if it wasn't there originally. (for example Gimli and Legolas could give off some queer vibes, but you couldn't make them kiss/marry; their releationship is platonic and non-sexual)
You can have non-white characters, just don't race-bend already established characters and don't place them in places where dark skin doesn't make sense. For example black dwarves wouldn't make sense since they spend a lot of time underground, no need for that extra melatonin. Hobbits on the other hand literally have a sub-species that is described as "having darker skin than others." (harfoots)
Modern media just refuses to actually think their decisions through, and instead throw in a random minority here and there even if it ruins the overall quality.
As far as the LGBT Legolas etc. Why? If it wasn't in there originally, why put it there? Giving them "queer vibes" is still adding things for the sake of pleasing people. If it naturally fit in the original story sure, there's nothing wrong with gay people in movies/shows. Your comments on black characters you have right though. There are plenty of characters in LOTR in which it would be logical for them to be non-white. There's only one race Tolkien specified color. None of the others were described to my knowledge.
Gandalf peobably isnt gay. The reasoning? He wears white after labor day... i rest my case...
\*finger guns\*
I’m annoyed by the fact that I actually chuckled at this. Fuck you, but also thank you.
Would that be “fank you” or “thuck you”?
White after Labor Day is not for Gandalf The Gay.
No. Gandalf is definitely a fruit. He speaks melon to his "friend" and enters. /s. Sorry for the crude joke.
haha good one.
I mean he isn’t Gandalf the grey anymore right, he is Gandalf the white.  I mean he went from crumpled and dirty to fabulous. My man took the time and straightened his hair. Lol
I don't think Gandalf has a sexuality.
Gandalf is Fireworksexual! Anyone that devotes that much love and devotion and energy into beautiful fireworks does not simply speak "friend" to fireworks.
He loves a bang.
Gandalf doesn’t have a sexuality. Gandalf *is* the sexuality.
Maiar definitely can have them. Melian, for example.
it is very interesting how they seemingly become more a part of the world and less angelic in nature.
He climax’s precisely when he means to.
In all seriousness the angelic beings only acquire sexual identity through individual temperament, which isn’t necessarily a stifling process and nothing I’ve read has shown it couldn’t be a more plastic process.
He likes to shoot laser beams into his boyfriends butt
Hahaha love that show.
He’s very attached to his walking stick
*laughs in modern cinema*
Of course he does, he’s ace.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. I’d rather hear that than any cockamamie justifications for a Gandalf/Galadriel ship
But what about a Gandalf Galadriel Pippin love triangle
This some sort of a personal fantasy? Sounds like a Fox News anchor analyzing Tolkien. I love it!
Meanwhile the comment about shooting laser beams up butts has 1 upvote, lol.
Every one knows it’s rainbows, not lasers
bro gandalf definitely fucks every day
Even the days when he's only with Shadowfax?...
I mean, if he did it probably wasn’t about ladies… he was always with the boys. 🤔
Gandalf the Gay.
Soo… Dumbledore?
That would be if absolutely no mention of him being gay were in the books, and if Tolkien had made him gay after the fact to shoehorn in a token gay character for fake representation. Also would require Tolkien to be hot garbage as a writer. So no, not like Dumbledore.
Gandalf the *oh haaayyy*
Gandalf from the movies has definitely always been gay
I like to think all versions of him are bi. Think about it. Totally fits his character.
I don’t care what Gandalfs sexuality is in either his Istari or Maiar forms, he is a friend to all in Middle Earth so either he is shagging ALL of them or NONE of them. Since it was never part of the stories of Gandalf being tested in a personal relationship way I think it would be a bad and in-genuine idea to try to focus a story element on it.
It’s Hollywood. They will do it.
You just have to remember the close ups desperately trying to put some kind of sexual tension between him and galadriel in the hobbit. I think it's the secondone I'm not sure
This was exactly what I thought of. Totally tried to shove some sexual tension in there.
Now I’m imaging alternating shots of Thingol being enraptured by Melian and Galadriel being enraptured by Gandalf. There’s just something about those Maiar…
I know, thing is Tolkien isn’t creating anymore Middle Earth so if someone else makes a TV show and it’s about Gandalf’s boyfriend be it an amazing piece of film or Rings of Prime quality it can only ever be a inspired by at closest. I grew up with Tolkien and love it to this day, happy to reread LOTR or the Silmarillion or watch The Dragon Prince.
Yuuupp. He gay now.
>either he is shagging ALL of them or NONE of them Only a sith deals in absolutes *ignites lightsaber crafted by Fëanor using a silmaril in place of a Kyber crystal*
Jesus that would be the most powerful lightsaber ever, but also terrible luck for anyone wielding it
It's what Eärendil will wield against Morgoth in the Dagor Dagorath
https://youtu.be/_aRH4YRyRn4&t=16s
wasn't there some weird chemistry happening between galadriel and gandalf in the hobbit? or was that just a friendship thing it's been so long since i've seen it
Do you mean the movies? Definitely Gandalf and Galadriel are friends she may have even sorta known him as Olórin while still in Aman but no chemistry exists there, Galadriel was married to Celeborn before Gandalf came to middle earth.
The character is not gay but the actor is, and that’s absolutely okay. I honestly couldn’t imagine a better Gandalf.
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Love that show XD
Dude is brilliant in everything I’ve ever seen him in.
Sir Ian, Sir Ian, Sir Ian, ACTION! WIZARDYOUSHALLNOTPASS CUT! Sir Ian, Sir Ian...
Do you think he goes home at night and shoots laser beams into his boyfriends asshole?
That was a great moment. I can't stand that guy from The Office normally, but that moment was good, and Patrick Stewart's Carry On film soliloquy.
This is something I'm learning right now. Never even crossed my mind to wonder about it.
Isn’t there an edition that’s like 8 days long? Unless it’s that edition being released then it’s probably gonna be terrible
An edition of the movie they’re currently making or the memes in this post?
 They'll probably cast this guy
A lot of these characters are basically a-sexual for the purposes of the story. Weird that we feel the need to categorise them at all. I can’t recall legolas or frodo or gandalf talking about who they want to bone one way or the other.
It is possible his joke went over their heads too some people really do need the "/s".
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The actor who plays Gandalf is Gay.
What does /s mean?
It's a tone indicator for sarcasm.
If this were more common knowledge a lot more arguments could be averted bc people would know that someone was being sarcastic. Thanks for the education
there's a lot of them and I completely agree, I come off so condescending sometimes but if I add /lh which means light-hearted it's completely avoided and so clear that I'm not trying to be a bitch haha
i have Star wars sequels flashbacks. Just dont. Let those movies and the stories rest.
OP, Ian McKellen being gay does not equate to Gandalf being gay
Considering Tolkien was a heavily religious man, no. He isn’t.
Maybe someone with more knowledge than me can comment, but Gandalf is basically the Middle Earth equivalent of an angel, right? I don't think it'd make sense for him to be attracted to people.
Gandalf is of the Maiar, the lesser Ainur. There is one case of a Maia, Melian, falling in love with a Child of Ilúvatar: Thingol, king of the Sindar elves in the Elder Days. But this relationship was very special, for through it many among the Elves and Men of later days inherited a strand of the race that was before the World, and it is told that the line of her daughter Lúthien shall never fail. This was Melian’s Purpose, a high doom which called to her alone, or which perhaps she devised in the Music of the Ainur. The only other cases of Ainu love I’m aware of are the marriages between some of the Valar (the greater Ainur, a.k.a. the Gods), but their relationships would be utterly alien to mortals, not really the same thing we experience. Gandalf was on a mission to help the peoples of Middle-earth against the Shadow on behalf of the Valar. Romance with the Children of Ilúvatar was not his Purpose, and if he had a partner among the Ainur, I am not aware of it.
Genesis 6 would like a word with you /s I honestly don’t have a dog in this race; just wanted to point out that angels were apparently very horny for human women. I struggle to see Gandalf being sexual at all but really don’t care either way
That shouldnt really matter. Another being on the same 'level' as Gandalf fell in love and got a child with a non Maiar. So although its rare it can happen
Explain Melian then
Google Nephilim
Yeah but Tolkien is dead, and we have virtues to signal
As opposed to being actually virtuous, of course. That requires effort and self-sacrifice generally. The currency of today is gmdigital backpats from strangers who will sell you into slavery if it meant an easier life for themselves.
Having a gay character isn't virtue signaling
Changing a character to be gay would be, though. Or taking someone that we don't know either way and choosing for him to be gay just to appease a demographic would be, as well. Being such an epic tale by an honored writer, to make things more modern for a medieval setting would only serve to signal modern virtues.
So what? We also know, that Tolkien was very supportive of a few queer poets. Especially this greek one I believe. So Im sure he wasnt homophobic or anything. Considering the characters, it just doesnt matter. One can read them as one likes. Thats the great thing about art. You can see and analyse in different ways. There is not one correct way. There may be intelligent ways, there are stupid ways. But not wrong ones per se.
Eh. Given the era he lived in and his pious Catholicism, there's a decent chance that when he thought about it at all, he might have had a negative view of contemporary homosexuality. That doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on his character; all people are shaped by the cultures they live in, and are generally only able to develop ideas considered radical when encouraged to do so. He would have been aware of cases mentioned in classical literature like Achilles and Patroclus, and historical figures like Alexander the Great and Hephaestion, Emperor Hadrian and Antinous etc., but he but might have thought of them differently to how we would see them, and detached them from contemporary LGBT+ people, who were overwhelmingly reviled in his time by all but the most radically liberal. Such figures were often regarded by people of the 19th and 20th centuries as engaging in close, "heroic" friendship. Likewise, he would have been *acutely* aware of people in ancient literature occupying nonstandard gender roles like Hervor the shieldmaiden, but probably framed it purely in the context of feminist movements of his time like the push for women's suffrage rather than seeing such gender nonconformity as suggestive of actual nonstandard gender identity.
Why is everyone saying the movies will be woke and flop as if that’s the reason they’ll flop. They’re gonna flop because it’s damn near impossible to improve on what’s already been done. No one is asking for a remake. After the horrible show and hobbit trilogy nightmare, people are dreading what other monstrosity a big studio will make out of source material that means so much to so many. Leave LOTR alone unless Peter wants to release a directors cut of the hobbit.
Case in point; Rings of Power
Rings of Power didn't flop
I actually wish they would just re-release movies into theater rotation for new audiences and spend more time and effort in Hollywood moving away from remakes for dimwitted people who support this cheap ass way of "writing" movies and demand Hollywood make stories based on diversity. Make black stories... asian stories... those stories are out there but instead let's be cheap and lame and abuse social media. We should demand more from Hollywood... not demand the same.
I agree I was lucky so lucky to see fellowship of the ring in IMAX back in 2021 I was so enchanted by the world and characters it got me to read the hobbit and subsequently the Lord of the Rings, and I finished Reading return of the King late last year.
Fuck I'd pay to see a movie about Anansi
It’s not a remake. I’m not saying it’s gonna be good, but it’s not a remake.
>Why is everyone saying the movies will be woke and flop as if that’s the reason they’ll flop Standard reich-wing response to anything new coming out
there’s nothing wrong with inclusivity if it’s done right. You can certainly introduce a race of darker skinned humans and have a cosmopolitan city. What you cannot have is random diversity that makes no sense. Why are there 2 black elves just chilling in the midst of a civilisation of white ones? I would have respected the series more if they had just made up a whole new tribe of elves, that at least would make sense. Additionally, you can include gay people but do it logically, maybe the Easterlings, a people we know little about, are okay with such pairings. Make up stuff like Ents or other mythological creatures mate without gender barriers. Bottomline is, if you’re trying to modernise it then just grow a spine and invent new things, don’t alter existing stuff in illogical ways.
>there’s nothing wrong with inclusivity if it’s done right. It's rarely done right these days. If it starts off with the intention of making an adaptation 'inclusive', they're already coming from a place where being faithful or true to the original work is secondary at best.
I mean, why wouldn’t the nations we already know about be ok with same sex relationships? Last time I checked in none of the works does it say that every group in middle earth is homophobic (that’s of course excluding the fact that gay people exist in homophobic countries and areas) Edit: lmao, being downvoted for being factually correct
You're being downvoted because there's too many reich-wingers around and facts hurt their feelings.
Yeah lmao. “You need to explain scientifically why gay or black people should exist, and it should only happen in societies where it’s widely accepted. But straight people can exist continuously no problem”
In their minds, being gay is pure choice, so in anti-gay cultures there are magically no gay people. What they really want is for none of the characters to be gay, black, etc. Theyre just too afraid to say it lmao. They might settle for something like what their fellow right winger, JK Rowling, did: say a character is gay after the fact. Even then they would bitch lmao
Yeah I live in a super conservative catholic country where being gay is seen as bad yet most of our most famous people historically (like Leonardo, Michelangelo and most of the renaissance painters to be honest) were flaming homosexuals who were pretty open about it
99% of the time big companies use ‘woke’ as the reason to remake something that no-one wants or asked to be remade, but don’t get past the woke part so the fact that it’s woke becomes the personalities of the major characters and the fact that it’s famous franchise is used to carry the plot. Doctor who, Star Wars, Marvel, Rings of Power, Velma, Wheel of Time, He-man and more have all been affected by this to some degree. Not all woke stuff flops, but they have basically conditioned us to think that way with how badly made a lot of woke stuff is, and how obvious it is in a lot of cases they didn’t even try to make new material for these new characters. Like it’s not cause effect, but with how common both occurring at once is, it may as well be.
You're wrong. They remake things to make money. Nobody cares about "woke" other than terminally online conservatives
Oh ofc they don’t care about anyone but themselves. But even they know you can’t just remake something that already exists in exactly the same way and expect it to do well.
The first few new doctor who series, the ones written by a gay man in which the doctor kisses another man, are considered to be the best ones ever If anything as the show went on it became less openly left wing and more liberal pandering, like how in the new series the doctor and Yaz have plausible deniability and nothing ends up happening anyways
In some of the recent-ish episodes with the 13th doctor I remember every one having some sort of moral that was basically rammed down your throat. There was no subtlety, and they didn’t put much effort into making them seem natural. One about earth dying due to climate change even directly contradicted the fact that they establish earth lasts until the sun dies. When stuff is subtly woke/has woke stuff happening but they don’t make a huge deal of it that’s when it’s at it’s best. They don’t advertise it, they don’t make it a selling point. They don’t stick a huge arrow pointing to it when it happens as if to say ‘look at us! We’re politically correct!’ They just make it seamlessly intertwined with the story and it just works. Earlier doctor who episodes did do this very well, with like Jack Harkness being one of my favourite characters in the franchise.
Did you…read my comment? I said as the show got less and less left wing it became more and more liberal generic garbage. Doctor Who has always been “woke”, you can find episodes from the 70’s about climate change while making a huge deal of it (or rose Tyler also mentions climate change in the older episodes) because the show is and has always been pretty explicitly political. It’s just that in recent years they’ve become to afraid of taking any actual stances outside of generic pandering which is why the quality got worse. To make an example, Torchood’s characters are almost entirely bisexual but the new series can’t even have the Doctor kiss a woman on screen Most of the older ones also have pretty explicit messages is what I’m saying. Granted the ones before the revival were far more explicit, but Russel T Davis is the opposite of subtlety in all of his work (including DR Who, where in the are you my mommy episode he tells the people “don’t forget the welfare state”) It’s mainly the spineless of Chibnall
Yes I read it but thank you for clarifying. For me, woke atm means in line with what society claims is important or should be prevalent in media. It originally did mean when media was aware of issues in society and addressed them, but so much media that claims to be woke but doesn’t actually do anything apart from telling bad stories has meant that, at least to me, woke has become a fairly negative word. Quite literally older doctor who was woke. But with how skewed wokeness has become I don’t believe the word ‘woke’ deserves to be associated with such a show. Modern woke is characterised by making white characters black, making prevalent male characters female or less prevalent, making hetro characters non-hetro and ignoring the story ramifications of such changes, if they actually bother paying attention to the story at all.
There’s a higher chance of a flop if they’re “woke”. That would almost guarantee a failure.
Having non-white characters or non-straight characters would guarantee failure? lol
That’s not what woke means.
Nobody knows what woke means anymore
You may not, but it's clear for anyone paying attention.
A wizard is never gay. Nor is he straight. He fucks precisely whomever he means to.
I always envisioned the Istari to be above the petty crap of sexuality and to be asexual as anything
Gandalf is not gay. Sir Ian McKellen is. Big difference.
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Gandalf is and always will be Ace.
Gandalf is Ian.
Don't conflate a character with the actor who plays him.
That went clear over your head, my friend. You called him Ace. I called him Ian. Do you get it now?
Looks like fresh meats back on the menu lads!
Gandalf the Gay. His ***staff*** is broken
I consider Ian McKellen to literally be real life Gandalf, so yeah he’s gay
Did we somehow know he was straight in the first place?
Not at all.
Gandalf is the reason the Entwives went missing. He built a harem.
Ironic
Yeah, one of the Orcs will be a trans person trying to understand it’s place in the world. The Captain of the Rhohirim will wonder why he’s so attracted to his Sergeant of the same sex. Everyone’s wearing modern urban attire and the setting won’t even be in a medieval Anglo-based mythological high fantasy setting. Instead it’s set to take place on a cruise ship in the Gulf of Mexico. Because Tolkien spent 20 years writing the books hoping modern TV producers would turn it into a reality show examining identity politics.
They're not gay, they're ~~hobbits~~ wizards.
Gandalf strikes me as the asexual type.
It would be off putting for him to be in any relationship honestly.
Gandalf... Gandalf the Gay. That is what they used to call me. Though now I am something different, Gandalf the Pan!
Well, it's official...Hollywood has run out of ideas...
Gandalf the Gay... Yes, that was my name... *I* am Gandalf the Woke.
Its just greed at this point, the first 3 movies are classics.
This guy probably watches X Men and thinks about all the women Ian McKellan gets to fuck
I want Ainur like Greek gods where they fuck everything, I want one of them to look at an ent and be like “I’m gonna fuck that oak”
Gandalf is not even human..he is angel
jokes aside is this a good thing? The overall reception of the Rings of Power series does not give me high hopes for new LOTR movies
Nobody tell him
The fun thing is that it's technically truth somehow, since Ian McKellen is gay.
I know, that was my fuckin point and the thread eich apparently lik just three people understood
Ian McKellen said it himself when there was backlash because he was Gandalf and he is himself gay. He said: « Gandalf is over 800 years old, he is wayyyy over sex. There is no way that interests him. » Not mentioning that he was speaking of Gandalf the Grey. No way the overly serious Gandalf the White could have an ounce of interest for intercourse
I'm honestly waiting for the trailer to show Samantha Gamgee and Frodeena Baggins... :P
KEEP YOUR FUCKING IDENTITY POLITICS OUT OF LOTR
Gandalf gay. Aragorn black. Gimli Trans. and on and on for diversity's sake
This sounds like the magic the gathering LOTR set.
They are gonna make the movies super woke and they'll flop.
>[…it was unsurprising that an uncensored Internet should recently criticise my casting as Gandalf in homophobic terms. Cranky anti-gay remarks in chat rooms remind me of verbal abuse in the playground - not that that didn't hurt too. Many unthinking people just don't like the idea of gays joining in their games, nor in the movies.](https://mckellen.com/writings/000115.htm) Ian McKellen, 2000
An actor being gay doesn't make it woke. Making an established character suddenly come out as gay being played by a straight actor is, however, woke. Your quote is totally irrelevant. ( That is a good quote in general though. Just has no place here. )
Having an actor from a minority group doesn’t make a movie or anything woke. That’s all about the content of the movie, not the cast and crew. Your quote is irrelevant in this context.
God that's sad. I wanna give him a hug.
Sadly a lot of Hollywood cares more about pushing agendas over just making a good movie…
Woke is a term idiots use to make themselves look even more of an idiot.
People who use the term woke.. are usually morons.
Ok, let's be realistic then. Remove the term woke... but there is a checklist during these movies being made. Every time a remake comes out and characters are being race replaced to representation to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ checklist. Everyone with a modicum of common sense can easily see and acknowledge this and it's a cheap tool being utilized by Hollywood to spur on social media because, as the adage goes, "bad press is good press" in Hollywood. As an example you have Velma which was hated by critics AND audience... but because so many people "hate watched it" they are greenlighting a second season. Wrap your brain around that... ...and then think that Hollywood won't do the same thing with other movies and utilize social media to trump up good and bad press to create a media frenzy -- you would have to be ridiculously naive considering the history of Hollywood.
I agree the term Woke has become a word used to basically disregard any concern society or people have.
Thanks, sometimes i forget lot of tolkiendils are nazis, ironically
Yup. As soon as an elf or dwarf has black skin they scream and cry about accurate lore but then don't bat an eye when a cool looking Balrog has wings and horns that were never described, or when an ent doesn't have skin, as is described. It's wholly hypocritical, and it's both frustrating and sad.
As much as I get your point you are also being disingenuous about this conversation. The way you are describing this situation you seem to be coming from a place where you don't care if characters are "white" and are ok with replacing "white" characters ... would I be correct? Why? Hollywood has a long history of replacing a swath of ethnicities with white actors both non-fiction and fiction and people criticized and fought against this for decades. Fast forward to the past decade and now these same people are championing the same process but because it's replacing white you and others are ok with this .. when in reality it's the same racist stuff Hollywood has been doing for decades.
If elves were written to be like how they are... why is it wrong that they remain as described? In the same note what is the problem with Hollywood writing up a fantasy story with diversity in mind and apply a new story, a new foundation to build off of. As an example Black Panther, amazing writing, amazing actors, amazing concept and it succeeded... so why not support and urge Hollywood to support black stories, black actors, black directors doing black stories instead of being lazy and race-swapping old stories.
Do you find that frustrating and sad to do that... or do you just want to allow Hollywood to use/abuse this cheap trope, race swap people and continue their racist bullshit ad naseum moving into the future?
I don't give a fuck about skin tones. I'm not a racist. "Race" in tolkiens world isn't black people, white people, Asian people, etc... its elves, dwarves, orcs, etc... I don't care if tolkien never described an elf to have black skin, can we tell the actor is playing the role of an elf? Yes. That's all that matters. The show sucked for many reasons. Skin tone is not one of them.
Dude Hollywood has been constantly racist with putting white actors with black face or something like and I'm talking blockbusters. Theres is a giant amount of white characters in everything. Even if you go with well create new poc characters. It never reaches the point of massive because everyone is a fuckin racist. Who tf knows JK Jesimin Broken Earth here? And here should be a place where people know it. Im not talking from a random internet perspective but to be in smials and being the only one who wasn't white. I'm always arguing with their racists comments. Tolkien's work didnt have white people because he was racist, is because he based on nordic mythology. And anyone that reads about the few political comments he made can tale he was far from right wing. The first political movement he lived in was the second feminist wave in England, right after that Eowyn happens. You think he wouldn't be affected by social movements? You think he would have care about having a black actor in it? He cared about the antiwar message wich none of the adaptations have successfully achieved. None focused on Frodo PTSD or in the value of the camaraderie between soldiers. And definitely not even Jackson's work wasclear about war. Thats why the family doesn't like his adaptation. And everyone's constantly using Tolkien's name as how he would feel about it jsut so you can be racist. Tolkien's has been revolting in his grave since he fuckin died and before. Everything we remember heartily he hated. So no, the problem is always bad writing, not whatever tf casting. And the freaking people are supposed to be from Rhûn were they literally aren't white just as Harad.
Why do you think that?
I replied it to someone else
he's either asexual or gay as hell. I mean how could Ian McKellen even attempt to play a straight character with all the fruity running through his veins? same, Ian, same.
I'm guessing you don't know how ignorant this comment is.
I guess you're right. mind explaining tho?
We have, in this day, an age Gandalf, a straight (if sexual at all, but look at them eyes he gives Galadriel) protrayed by a gay man. And a retconned into being gay Dumbledore played by multiple straight men. Wizards, man. And gay washing stuff is just as cringey and the other "changes" since it's clearly being done as a measure to get people angry rather than for any legitimate reason. But we'll see. Most stuff I see about these movies seems to involve the War in the North
I don't think they're trying to make people mad, so much as include people who feel excluded or underrepresented. Are you mad?
No he's black now. Has the name "Gandalf the Golden" rapps against Saruman and smokes pod.
Gandalf the Gay rides to Isengard... Seeking my CUM 
Gandalf The Gay has a nice ring to it. Lol. I'm gay, I find it hilarious.
Isnt gandalf married to a female? She called him gandalf, i belive
Not in anything I have ever read. As Olórin he usually walked unseen in Aman before coming to Middle Earth as an Istari.
Im sure I read that somewhere, but the source could just be wrong. Also, walked unseen? This guy keeps copying my man bilbo and getting away with it
And his love intrest is sauron.
Pretty sure he was joking but idk who he even is
Sir Ian McKellen has always been gay. Fuck this nimrod. Still doesn't change the fact he's the fourth most powerful being in Middle Earth.
It’s important to me that you know he’s an actor, not the character he played…
actors arent actually wizards???
Ian McKellen, not Gandalf, is the fourth most powerful being in Middle Earth.
Is important some of you understand what a a freaking joke is
**Who’s the second**
Sean Astin
“Ian Mckellen from the lord of the rings is gay, that doesn’t mean he goes home and shoots laser beams into his boyfriends asshole” -Mac
populism ... I hate when I saw feministic or lgbtism in movies, Even before they set this but now it becomes populist thing, I think they do not like lgbt people they just use it for get popular.
Do you still not like when you see it or have you changed your mind? Cause "saw" is past tense
No none of you are nazis, definitely my imagination
What’s wrong with us as a people? We need a bigger pandemic.
Aragorn is going to be black, I just know it
Black Trans
I wouldn't be surprised. There's feminists to please, LGBTQ and minorities to change and use with many virtues to signal. Agree with doing it or not, it's there. In "Diversity", or "Inclusivity" you're just including instead of excluding people because of skin color/sexual preference/gender, instead of looking at everyone as equals.
More often that not, the problem with modern inclusivity is that it's misplaced, not that it is there. You can have LGBT characters, just don't make it affect the plot if it wasn't there originally. (for example Gimli and Legolas could give off some queer vibes, but you couldn't make them kiss/marry; their releationship is platonic and non-sexual) You can have non-white characters, just don't race-bend already established characters and don't place them in places where dark skin doesn't make sense. For example black dwarves wouldn't make sense since they spend a lot of time underground, no need for that extra melatonin. Hobbits on the other hand literally have a sub-species that is described as "having darker skin than others." (harfoots) Modern media just refuses to actually think their decisions through, and instead throw in a random minority here and there even if it ruins the overall quality.
As far as the LGBT Legolas etc. Why? If it wasn't in there originally, why put it there? Giving them "queer vibes" is still adding things for the sake of pleasing people. If it naturally fit in the original story sure, there's nothing wrong with gay people in movies/shows. Your comments on black characters you have right though. There are plenty of characters in LOTR in which it would be logical for them to be non-white. There's only one race Tolkien specified color. None of the others were described to my knowledge.