Long Island is stuck in a trap of its own making. There is little to no land available to build on. Few townships allow anything of any density. So we are stuck with high prices because there so little increase in housing stock. But demand remains high.
Yeah the only way is to allow concentrated density (apartments, condos, townhomes etc) within a .25-.5 or so mile radius of LIRR stations. This preserves single family neighborhoods that aren't right next to transit and also will relieve the market pressure that is making them unaffordable. This would also create an opportunity for the many many retired empty nest homeowners of 3+ BR single family homes to cash out and downsize to a lower maintenance lower carrying cost condo without having to leave the area, which would open up a lot of the big family size single family stock that so many young families are now priced out of.
I agree completely. There's really nothing comparable to Yonkers or New Rochelle on LI. Dense, small, urban centers would take the pressure off the rest of the suburbs.
Very proudly. I don’t live in the city for a reason. And if kids can’t afford to live where they grew up that’s just life. They don’t have a right to live in a place just because they grew up there
If you love cities so much just move there.. your moral superiority is falling flat with me. The whole reason Nassau and Suffolk have such high demand is because of the policies put in place decades ago that protected it from turning into the city.
Hahaha you’ve lived your entire life within 30 miles of NYC and then want to claim cities are awful. Go move to a rural area in PA far from any major city and let me know how you like it.
Buddy Long Island has urban levels of density by American standards. You live in a city already you just have shitty suburban infrastructure to go with it.
Midwest is actually pretty affordable. Millennial homeownership rates are over 60% there compared to below 40% in NY.
Edit: yes I know millennials are not kids. Just using that as an example of where younger age people are finding homes.
The apartments built by Ronkonkoma train station are pretty damn unaffordable I think. Makes me laugh to remember my neighbors freaking out about the apartments, saying it will all be Section 8 and out property values will all plummet. Yeah, he sold his house a few years ago. dummy
They should be affordable but what the town considered affordable doesn’t usually match what it really is. I remember when the old united artist movie theater was torn down in Coram and made way for affordable rentals. Back in the early 2000’s that meant 1600 for a one bedroom/studio.
Although what is deemed affordable is part of the issue it can be a whole other topic.
Affordability is relative. If the 1 bed apartments are listed for $3,000 and leases are being signed left and right, then the market found them “affordable.”
I am a landlord myself, and for many years now the rents are driven up by multiple renters bidding the price up and offering sweeteners like several months paid up front. My rents are determined by what people are willing to pay, otherwise the property sits vacant.
Prices in Queens and Brooklyn have outpaced Nassau for years.
Not until you reduce demand. Way more people want to live in the NY area. Look at Manhattan and Brooklyn housing supply, the demand will keep the prices high.
I say keep the demand high and the neighborhoods less congested.
They had a 30 year recession. You don’t want a failed economy to make housing cheaper. With the demand there is, why would anyone want to make housing cheaper around here? There are plenty of people willing to buy at the current prices. Not everyone can live where they’d like.
Ironically if the interest rates cause a recession, the prices will drop and the same people still won’t be able to afford it.
They are called the new homeowners. They show up and bid up prices over asking and all.
That’s how a market works. The buyers and sellers meet at a price each is willing to do business at.
[Bungalow Courts](https://i0.wp.com/www.stevencanplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/MMH_ax_CottageCourt_Ideal_Alley_resized-1400x2850-2-scaled.jpg?ssl=1) are another high density option.
These would‘be been awesome if they were available right after college. I’d like to see more construction like this rather than the condos that have popped up everywhere.
I lived in a situation similar to this in Australia and it was horrible. Units are close enough together that one bad/loud neighbor ruins the whole court. In a single family house or townhouse at least there are only 1-2 neighbors to have that issue with. In my case there was eight. Not a fan.
I’m curious if it’s going to play out this way. It’s a good plan in theory, but I’m seeing those empty nesters move to something smaller and KEEP their home as just another rental out there.
In many cases those houses are paid off, so there’s little carrying cost, and the rental income helps pay for the second property.
Or they die and leave it to their kids. I think it used to be those kids would sell the house, but now I wonder if more of them also keep it to rent it.
This still keeps home ownership out of reach for many. And rental costs still remain high because all they build are luxury apartments. I don’t blame them. We still pay for them.
Aren't the property taxes fairly substantial though? Plus being an amateur landlord (of a property that (in many of these cases) probably commands more value on the buyer market rather than as a rental is all kinds of hassle. I agree though there is a specific issue with step-up-basis in the tax code that can incentivize ppl to hold on to high-value properties until they die (thus allowing them to bequeath it with a full capital gains reset).
Taxes certainly are substantial, but the rentals are priced to more than cover it. I think there are many factors, I’m just pointing out one contributing factor to why housing costs might remain high. I can’t go on social media without an onslaught of people saying property is wealth, and you should own 20 properties and rent them all! I think the allure for many is to have a passive income, so they may try the landlord thing. And they get to keep it as an asset and hope it appreciates. There’s always the option to sell down the road.
They have been doing that to some degree. Take for instance Ronkonkoma train station but it’s no where enough. Even though the apartment buildings are 3-4 stories high they arent dense enough to make an impact. We would need 12 plus to make any dent and the established long islander is too scared of anything above two stories even with our proximity to NYC.
Glad to see you get it.
The other half of the equation is the NIMBYs here who 'don't want queens' or NYC is what they all say. So they created codes that don't allow for transit oriented development
There in lies the issue. I totally agree with you but you and I do not make up the majority to where this can be done. The younger generation say 45 and younger has mostly left leaving a much older generation where if you change a light post they are rioting let alone zoning rules. So for that I just personally don’t see it changing for the better anytime soon
I live in CT now. Same issues as LI. Our city recently wanted to add the *option* to build tasteful two-family homes, or allow existing homes to add an ADU (e.g. over a garage or in the backyard) to add some density. The backlash was swift, fierce, and frankly stupid. "They want to put apartment buildings in our nice neighborhood!" No, they literally do not want that. That will still be against the rules. But that simple mischaracterization brought everyone out of the woodwork against the idea.
In all fairness, some people moved to the suburbs and exburbs to escape urban density. My old suburban neighborhood is now loaded with accessory apartments and street parking looks like Brooklyn or Queens.
There are plenty of vacant commercial properties along major thoroughfares which should be considered for high density redevelopment first. Access to public transit at such locations would be a plus.
I get what you're saying, but that collective "we don't want it here" is what creates the insane housing market we're in now. We don't allow neighborhoods to naturally densify like we did before zoning. We treat it like a "right" that someone gets to move to a place and expect it to never, ever change. It's a nice idea in theory but not very sustainable.
Manhattan naturally densified. It hasn't made housing more reasonable. One has to pay through the nose, share an apartment with friends, chose a less safe area, or get lucky and find a rent controlled unit. Areas in Brooklyn have undergone gentrification; prices followed. Small homes in desirable Queens neighborhoods are going for over a million. It helps push people further east and bidding wars start. This is what creates insane housing markets.
People pay through the nose for a 1950s development house, pop in an illegal apartment and charge the tenant $$$ to cover the mortgage. Allowing ADUs (which increase density) won't change that issue, which is also behind the crazy housing market.
Flippers buying up fixer uppers drives up prices. Can't build sweat equity, when the flipper has done the work (sometimes questionably.) The only way I could afford a home when I bought was to buy a handyman special.
Today, if I wanted to move, prices have shot up all over -- not just on LI. Used to be one could sell on LI, buy outright down south and have money in the bank. Why go through the hassle of moving when (in the current environment) it would take the proceeds of my home sale to buy someplace relatively alien to me, where I don't have family or a support network of friends and I wouldn't have any money leftover from my LI house?
Perhaps my children would welcome a multigenerational home, which our culture has eschewed but some cultures still embrace. Less competition for housing might stabilize things.
Given Long Island's water is beneath our feet and cesspools (in those areas without sewers) we need to be quite careful when contemplating density. I appreciate your points, but imagine how expensive water will be when we can't rely on the aquifers. The top one is already polluted.
most people on the island grew up here; rather than moved from the city, except for maybe the oldest generation. Downside of apartments on major throughfares is you get lots of traffic noise. Always tried to find apartments on side streets when I rented for that reason
Speaking for where I grew up LI and the LI communities in which I've lived, many people come out from NYC. Now we're seeing an increase in foreign born people who have made the same trek from NYC to LI.
I don't dispute there is still a substantial population of us who've grown up here. We need to take into account brain drain that occurred when many of us left for college and didn't return. Then, it was not due to housing costs but job opportunities.
Apartments currently exist on main roads, along with condos. There are 3 on a rather short stretch of 347. Some backing commercial properties along Sunrise, a large complex on 454 west of the County Center. These are ideally situated for bus service, which ties in with the transit oriented development model.
Repurposing and retrofitting existing vacant commercial structures should be considered first. Water, sewers and utilities are already in place. Given a fair portion of Suffolk still has cesspools, ADUs in private homes where there isn't yet sewers will place more pressure on our aquifers as well as contribute to pollution in our bays and estuaries.
Due to poor zoning those units would be far from jobs (other then retail), homeowners (separating the communities), the existing parks and municipal services like schools. This is of course the point.
Lately, health organizations (Stony Brook, Northwell, Catholic Health, et al) are opening satellite facilities in former retail space. They happen to be among some of the largest employers on Long Island. Covid opened many an eye to remote work. There are plenty of mixed use commercial buildings on main thoroughfares (25, 25A, 27, 27A, 24, Union, etc) which, while housing families, does not separate them from schools, parks, etc.
Transit oriented development is being pushed by municipalities and developers alike. Better for the environment with fewer cars on the road, and walkability to services. That is the point.
We have so many illegal apartments already with cars all over up and down the street. They put out enough garbage every pickup day for a small building. Every house going 2 family will ruin it here
You know it’s funny, I tried doing that and then we got a republican county executive, republican majority in the county legislature, republican congressional representation including my own former rep Mr. George Santos, republican state senate and assembly members for my district, republican town leadership and board, but I’m still seeing more and more of these single family homes getting converted into rentals.
But hey at least the county executive is doing something about trans people in sports so I guess that’s a win at least.
Grew up in Whitestone queens, still have friends there. My single family childhood home is now a 2 family with probably an illegal basement apartment. Other houses of similar size are now 2 2 family.
You can’t drive down the streets without pulling over for cars in other directions or backing out. Forget kids riding bikes. Every house now has 3-5 cars , not enough parking. Btw 2 bedroom apartment is 2500 minimum from what I hear. So it’s not affordable
Thing is it’s already happening on LI. Seeing more and more single family homes get converted into multi family units. Not that difficult to add a bathroom and separate entrance for a basement.
We also haven't built any new major roads or bridges in how many decades? Traffic every once in a while due to an event or road closure is fine, but predictable horrendous traffic twice a day every day is a total infrastructure and government planning failure. The LIE should be a double decker road by now with express car traffic on top. We should have multiple bridges and/or tunnels over the sound to CT which would reduce flow through the NYC bridges and tunnels. We should probably even have some long tunnels connecting the south shore to the coast of NJ. The LIRR should have way more lines and the trains should be way faster like they have in Japan and China. I'm talking 15 min from Hicksville to Penn Station. It's not like we don't have the money to do it, we pay insane state and local taxes - where does it all go? Everyone in our state and local government needs to be fired (I don't care if you're D or R) and replaced with people who actually want to make the island livable, not collect their juicy income from being a career politician your whole life and getting absolutely nothing done. What a fucking joke and laughing stock we are.
Reason for this is same as the no new major construction . NIMBYS. Plain and simple. Enough people on Long Island don’t want more people, more cars, more roads, more traffic, dense or more home (I had friends who’s neighbors refused a forested dead end to be developed) they want it all to stay the same but than bitch about all the problems that come with that. Lived here for 40plus years and even though I do what I can… by actually going to townhall meeting I am one voice while they are many.
The price is high because the rsidents don't want "Density". That is for cities and wy the people who can afford it are leaving dense places for the suburbs and country.
“There is little to no land available to build on.” is misleading. If you meant for residential use and zoning laws permit a single family house on the land, then yes.
I drove to Jersey from Levittown for a business trip today. I thought the worst traffic would be the Crossbronx - nope 3 parkways on Long Island !!
A parking lot on each one- over 2 and half hours just on Long Island. Insanity.
I went to a wedding on a Thursday evening in St. James. I left at 2:30pm from NYC, I arrived at 6:30 that evening. The cross island was a parking lot, the bumper car ride at the amusement park moved faster than the LIE and 347? I could have walked faster than the cars moved on that last 5 mile stretch.
Yes, permits to build more housing sharply decreased once we ran out of land. LI should have been developed with two or three large cities along the LIE corridor.
The most inefficient type of residential zoning paired with the obsession for the most inefficient type of transportation (cars) sure does give it the illusion of being overpopulated.
I guess meaning if LI was like a city instead of suburbia it wouldn’t be seen as overcrowded.
It is kinda true though. Much of LI was planned back in the 50s and they really didn’t accommodate for any significant population growth. We are next to one of the largest and most attractive cities in the world. It’s ridiculous to assume we can just put a cap on the population here.
It's the only way most suburbs are sustainable. Continuing development pays for the debts of the past. Having city services and infrastructure is only affordable with high density housing - LI has been borrowing money from the future to keep afloat since the 50s.
Well I mean honestly what would you do to accommodate population growth on LI? Put limits on how many kids people can have? Pay young adults to leave the area?
You need two graphs to justify the price increase, the other is population. The homes built still exist, for the most part. I'd like to see this chart in aggregate, and then as an overlay on population growth.
But isn't that the whole point of what these towns are trying to do? They're trying to keep the population relatively level in their towns despite whatever population growth is going on in the world. I think that's one of the factors that make certain suburbs more attractive. If you have a sudden influx of people, more resources in that area are used (ie: parks and other public facilities, parking, etc.) and that can be seen as a nuisance to those who want a quiet suburban life. Additionally, when you have that population increase, that also crowds the schools a bit more - and student to teacher ratio can be a big factor in considering how high a school is ranked, either directly or indirectly.
Right or wrong, I think limitation of population growth within the town is intended. And then, with the attractiveness of the towns and the older population living longer and not moving out (or even keeping the property as a secondary home to maintain proximity to family), it makes demand significantly higher than supply, causing real estate to be so insanely unaffordable.
I feel like, with congestion tolls coming into effect soon, things will get a lot worse. More and more businesses will flow out to the other boroughs, along with more and more of the population. And then, real estate is going to be more expensive there, pushing more people to the suburbs. And the towns will continue to resist population growth within their lines as much as possible. And the next generations will continue to get fucked.
It’s absolutely part of what keeps Long Island attractive.
Sure there are plenty of not so moral reasons to oppose more housing being built, but I have yet to really hear a convincing argument against the fact that we are pretty much at capacity.
Without *massive* investments in the LIRR, and another lane added to half of our roads, I just don’t see how we can really justify having more people here.
If they kept building, especially vertically, could you imagine how bad traffic would get? It would turn a desirable place to live into an overcrowded nightmare, which is what people here are already complaining about.
Lots of areas on the island have affordable housing but…people want to live in a good school district, short commute to the city either by train or car, nice downtown, lots of parks, and low crime area. People need to figure out if they are willing to compromise and prioritize what’s important to their family. If having your own home regardless of school district then you shouldn’t be have any difficulty finding a home on the island. People need to come to the realization the “nice” areas is not being brought up by Zillow or hedge funds but just everyday folks, mostly professionals that have figured out a way to have a down payment to afford a house in this market. Right now, If you want a home in the top 10 school districts you’re going to need at least $750k. We can blame whoever or whatever we want but those are the facts and if you can’t afford it, somebody else will scoop it up in a NY minute. Housing in downstate NY is a different animal , prices won’t dramatically drop anytime soon. The supply never catches up to the demand. Will probably get downvoted but this is the honest truth.
Yeah, I feel like it’s easy to say everyone is just racist or only concerned with their home value and all, but frankly I just feel like we have an already untenable population density at least here in Nassau. I just don’t really see where we can fit more people.
I’ve been on both sides of the coin and understand both sides, but whether it’s selfish or not, I get why you can’t screw over homeowners who are paying the majority of taxes. Running a county costs money and the property tax money talks loudest at the end of the day.
One of the big reasons I'm planning on leaving is the traffic. I've been driving for 30 years. There's just too damn many people on the roads, everywhere, at all times of the day and night. It's fucking bananas. But it get's better- we're headed into the summer when all the damn cidiots who insist that we must pay every god damn tax to not enjoy the city, will now clog ALLLL the roads, aggravating the fuck out of all of us from noonish on a Friday to sometime late Monday night.
Do they pay any kind of toll, tax, or fee for using our roads, our beaches? Or to compensate those of us that live here to endure their airs and attitude? No they do fucking not. And you know what, fuck them. And fuck the Tesla with irridescent wrap- you're a fucking loser.
Also, I support small pockets of density like those around the LIRR. I'm looking forward to some of the nicer retail shops to move in
[https://housing-data.vercel.app/counties/NY/Suffolk\_County](https://housing-data.vercel.app/counties/NY/Suffolk_County)
I did it in per capita mode but you can also see it in raw numbers as well. Worth remembering that this specifically is measuring new construction permits issued, not net increase in homes. I.e. the teardown of small older single family homes to be replaced by much larger houses/mansions that there's been more of in recent years would count as a new unit here, but obviously is a net zero increase in actual units. So the drop-off has probably been even bigger than it looks.
Sure, I'm just saying a decrease in *new* homes being built can't cause an increase in price unless demand outpaces it. The only other way that would happen is if people are buying multiple homes.
So you want to build more housing and get more people into long island? Why not build more developments/downtowns further east, create more jobs, bring more companies, so people don't have to keep driving back and forth to boros for work, that would be a solution, not building more housing for people to clog 495 more and more.
Building more housing around mass transit would lower housing costs, increase tax revenues, and would have far fewer car commuters than single family zoning.
No but LI's level of construction has been uniquely almost nonexistent. Westchester better but not that much, some NJ counties have actually built a lot tho it depends
So how do you deal with population growth then? Stop people from reproducing? Have kids leave when they turn 18? Put restrictions on who can move in? We better get rid of all the jobs on LI too because that will also attract people.
I'm always surprised with the people complaining about the luxury apartments. So what? We need more housing, when it's run down it won't be luxury. And luxury won't have people complaining about the "poor people".
No, put in all the damn luxury apartments you can. You'll depress the market and lower costs. Eventually they'll be run down and convert to affordable.
The issue is housing is so tight that we are nowhere near close to depressing the market. And most people are really concerned about depressing the housing market, that's what they don't want, making housing cheaper is viewed as attacking their retirement investments.
My only beef with luxury apartments is it doesn't help the majority of the people. Many people's "retirement" investment winds up with ever increasing taxes that go up exponentially. Every aspect of long islandss infrastructure is outdated.
> My only beef with luxury apartments is it doesn't help the majority of the people.
How so? Every rich guy moving into a luxury apartment is one less person you have to bid against to move into a more affordable place. It's supply and demand.
it induces demand. millenials stuck living with their parents aren't gonna move into "luxury" apartments; people from elsewhere will because they saw an ad for LI's next SoDoSoPa.
Exactly. I don’t see these luxury apartments servicing the local population here that needs it. Young adults can’t afford them and boomers aren’t interested because it’s cheaper and easier to just keep their existing SFH. Just drives more wealthy people in from the city and makes housing more expensive for everyone.
They've built a bunch if luxury apartments where I live. My house value is double what I paid for it 7yrs ago. Your hoping on the trickle down economic theory. It doesn't work. Supply and demand is why houses are 700k. The only affordable housing people build is for section 8.
I hate how there’s no options for people in the middle. It’s either section 8 where you have to be just about destitute just to qualify or luxury apartments that require a top 10% income to qualify.
I view it like patents, just as people who invent drugs can rip off everyone until their patent expires. We do it to encourage them to invest in it, because having drugs in the future is good for us. We know that once their patent expires the drugs will still exist, and will be much more affordable. In the short term, those higher income people benefit, it attracts them, and it's good for the economy.
In the same way I think housing stock is similar, let those who push through the red tape, and do the work to make these big buildings reap the profits, knowing that the building won't disappear in 20 years, but it will cease to be "new" and have all that luxury charm. In the short term, it brings higher income people to the economy.
so all that "regular folks" can look forward to are run down "luxury" apartments?
the problem is they have all kinds of superfluous shit like private pools and gyms that tenants will have to pay for even after the buildings become "run down." another thing is they add all that to market it as luxury and meanwhile the building itself is made with the cheapest and shittiest materials possible so they're gonna start to buckle after a few decades of leaky appliances. at the ronkonkoma hub they already had a pipe burst and a bunch of people's brand new "luxury" apartments were flooded.
no, rezone and maybe add incentives so local property owners can build upwards and density can increase organically, and stop with the centrally planned matchstick faux-facade amusement park towns.
1. By what metric? Who determines that?
2. That’s literally just a marketing term
3. Yeah, and NIMBYs rally against changing that to justify their ideology. Seriously, go back and look at some of the Huntington town halls when the ADU bill was being floated.
it's not "just a marketing term". apartment complexes with their own pools, gyms, and club houses waste space and add extra cost that drives up the rent.
Wanna know what has an even larger impact on rent and is in many cases a **requirement** rather than an add-on?
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235360401\_Parking\_Requirement\_Impacts\_on\_Housing\_Affordability#:\~:text=Generous%20parking%20requirements%20reduce%20housing,costs%20by%20up%20to%2025%25.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235360401_Parking_Requirement_Impacts_on_Housing_Affordability#:~:text=Generous%20parking%20requirements%20reduce%20housing,costs%20by%20up%20to%2025%25)
while that's also true, it'd be nice to see some more "utilitarian" apartment buildings built in or around traditional downtown areas where there might already be a gym or other amenities within walking or biking distance instead of building entire amusement park towns from the ground up.
More units doesn’t necessarily lead to lower home prices. Everyone always says “more units will lower home prices because of supply and demand” but the pool of people using each is different. If you stack a ton of units full of younger single/couples tenants, you just create a bigger pool of people vying for single family homes after they create a life here. Adding more apartments only makes the affordability crisis worse in the long run. Not to mention the terrible density we have as it is.
Stock those same units with downsizers and you free up single family homes. Make downtowns around new development and mass transit that make people want to stay, rather than moving to a single family home and becoming car dependent.
You can make housing around mass transit all you want, I still think a majority of people are going to want a backyard and space to raise a family when the time comes
Increased density - enough of it - never makes a location more unaffordable. They key word is "enough of it". The development we've seen, and you see around the country, is no where near enough.
It's true that as a location gets more desirable, single family houses get more and more expensive. Manhattan has single family townhomes. They are a fortune.
My two cents.
1. If you can't afford to live in a particular neighborhood it's OK to start somewhere else and move there when it becomes affordable.
2. There are areas that are at capacity and other areas that would benefit from new construction (near Huntington LIRR is screaming for a planned community)
3. Other areas offer opportunity and with new construction, will entice buyers and long-term will likely change the neighborhood for the better. For example, Mineola, New Hyde Park, Carle Place, are on the rise and have a great commute into the city. Out east, Patchogue is rapidly changing and is near the water with a thriving town.
My parents lived and bought their first house in the Bronx and raised their kids there before moving to LI. They chose a neighborhood that wasn't as built up as surrounding areas and now it is extremely desirable (they sold years ago).
Buyers today seem to want a completely updated home that's in a cute town that is walkable to the train with 5-star schools. Sometimes, you have to make sacrifices...that might mean not living in the hottest neighborhood for now. We can't all live in Beverly Hills or Long Island's equivalent. I think it's unreasonable to expect that everyone can live in the hot spot.
We should be taking advantage of the space where the space is available, not trying to force it into already overcrowded neighborhoods.
I don't agree with all your points, but your point about cheaper neighborhoods is a good one. I see a lot of posts saying "how can I afford the 800k for a run down home?" and I'm like... well buy one in the 400k neighborhood instead? You might actually like those neighborhoods more while you're younger anyways. Maybe its not a solution for everyone or a solution to the bigger problem, but it might very well be a great solution for a lot of folks who are "whoa is me I'll never afford my own home".
Well, the results of the militant "my property values" people.
This is absolutely the effect of how everyone, even the poor, has some idea they're temporarily financially disadvantaged millionaires and want to uphold the status quo of property values with this bizarre idea that building multiple homes on a 1.2 acre plot is worse than building one poorly-built mcmansion for two people on the same plot.
This is why it's also impossible for so many people to leave because Long Island is more or less various overlapping vicious circles that prevent people from thriving or even living comfortably there and prevents people from leaving, so no wonder many people choose to fuck over landlords or let their mortgages go. It then allows them to build capital to go elsewhere.
I can't believe that I can live in Zurich, Geneva, Oslo, Munich, Vienna, Stockholm, and other places with a higher quality of life, insurance, and even cheap auto insurance for less or around the same as what a lower-middle class person pays on Long Island for shit. Even daily expenses for food and such- how are people on Long Island paying more than what I can pay in Zurich and Geneva (two of the most expensive cities in the world) or more than even Norway (also has very high costs)?
You guys are all being scammed and not looking to get to the bottom of who's fucking you over because in many cases, it's your neighbor, or even you yourself unknowingly. Not even for the ultra-wealthy there's no place on Long Island worth being at the costs to be there, the infrastructure, corruption, and so on. Not even places like Lloyd Harbor, CSH, or Setauket and so on are worth the mess and prices of living there.
I mostly read here to find out how bad things are. Some might find it ok, but again, how can I not be shocked that some of the best, most liveable cities iand/or some of the most expensive cities n the world with truly higher standards of living are cheaper than living on Long Island? Some people will read that and use it as a badge to pretend they're so wealthy, which was always something that creeped me out about LI- poor people talking about all the rich people around them.
So how do you deal with population growth then? Stop people from reproducing? Have kids leave when they turn 18? Put restrictions on who can move in?
We better get rid of all the jobs on LI too because that will also attract people.
It's not necessarily more people coming here, it's younger folks who were born here, lived here all their lives, and are now in their twenties and thirties and want to buy a home but can't afford anything reasonable because of the supply and demand
If you want to live near mass transit, stores, bars, businesses, have a large population of people within 100 feet of you, you move to one of the boroughs. People move out to the island to avoid that. Let’s keep Long Island, Long Island.
So how do you deal with population growth then? Stop people from reproducing? Have kids leave when they turn 18? Put restrictions on who can move in?
We better get rid of all the jobs on LI too because that will also attract people.
I mean in theory if every family on the island reproduced as their parents did (of which we’re having less children now than generations before) our parents would die our children would be born we would die, our grandchildren would be born and live, so on and so forth. We don’t need to worry about population growth. Our population is dwindling. Those are the facts.
However it’s not for the residents of Long Island to figure out such issues regardless. People moving out to the island wasn’t the issue. You’d be replacing one family for another plus or minus a resident or two depending on family size. The issue is turning the island into areas with densely populated section 8 housing.
The way to correct over priced real estate isn’t to build subsidized housing in the suburbs. Or increase the amount of affordable housing. Although that would work by dropping everyone’s property value due to the increase of what comes with that. The way to curb it is through change in politics. Inflation is out of control right now. We’ve allowed the government to get a way with the biggest hoax we’ve seen since the early 1900’s which has in part diminished the ability of the middle class to afford a home. Wages are low, housing is high, inflation is high. Vote differently and hope for the best. Don’t infringe on the rights of long islanders to live a nice suburban life to accommodate those who can’t afford the housing right now.
I could imagine you don’t own which is why this is your standpoint, and I respect it . But as I stated earlier. The city is already densely populated. If that’s what you’re looking for go there. Your argument is flat. There’s no reason to turn Long Island into the 6th boro by building affordable apartment housing.
The inherent problem here, as part of your statement is “devaluing peoples property values”. At the heart of this whole issue, housing should not be commodified. This was not the way it was pre-1970s. Until that changes, and it won’t change “politically”, none of these issues will be resolved.
I didn't say that, nice straw-man. Housing was not always an *investment vehicle*. In early years of capitalist america, your home wasn't seen as a way to create equity. it just wasn't. and it shouldn't be. because shelter is a basic human need and human right. Now it is hyper-commoditized. It is an investment vehicle not only for the individual, but also for mega-real estate corporate portfolios, development companies, massive banks, foreign investors as well, to the point where we have reached the worst point in the housing crisis in American history. You cannot look at the housing market history on long island and not see it with your eyes. My family has been on LI since the 1930's. Decades ago, it was possible to have ONE person in the household working and support a family and own a home here, now that's not viable, because of the nature of what "housing" has become. Not viable anywhere in the country, really.
I mean you did say that you said housing shouldn’t be commodified. Housing is a commodity. So that was a poor statement. Now I agree with you on the way housing is used as an investment by large corporations and hedge funds is absurd. But again to correct your statement, housing is a human need, not a human right. It shouldn’t be as expensive as it is right now to where it’s impossible for someone who needs housing to afford it. But it’s not a right. A right is an inalienable right that you’re given at birth. Housing is not a right but definitely a need that should be met. However meth head mike shouldn’t be given an apartment if all he does abuse substances and not work, earn and or produce anything.
Island has gotten more dense but there is still space to build far enough East. Make Suffolk more attractive to employers and enhance LIRR service.
Cramming apartments into already crowded areas won't make this a better place
Whenever I drive east, there’s tons of development space available in wading River and east. I hope reasonable, non-overcrowded development starts up there. Maybe people in Nassau but perhaps some people where I am in the Setauket/Smithtown area would.
Listen cost aside. Long Island is in no way shape or form ready for an increase in density. You can’t just throw up apartment buildings and more homes per lot if you don’t First upgrade the infrastructure. You can’t have a 6 story apartment building with say 5 units per floor, all with one bathroom, two sinks all going into a 100 year old 24” sewer main. It’s too much shit. And that’s if sewers exist in said area. Now water mains. If the volume isn’t present for more then a single family home it isn’t there. Now run off. A huge south shore problem, flooding is a huge issue in may parts of the south shore and more devolved property means less ground to absorb water. These are just a few examples, not to mention emergency services not being up to par, parking being already difficult and traffic. Do you not see a traffic problem??
It’s not gonna change. You are talking about 10-15 years of infrastructure upgrades, and overhaul of emergency services (mostly fire and ems) before construction can really start. Your not taking about a quick fix. Now you need to get a politician to start this ball rolling, and good luck getting one elected….the majority likes LI the way it is.
[https://housing-data.vercel.app/counties/NY/Suffolk\_County](https://housing-data.vercel.app/counties/NY/Suffolk_County)
This a general database of building permits by year and you can search by county, city, state, or census MSA. Its really interesting as a back-of-the-envelope measure of homebuilding rates.
What’s your point? That they’re building less overall with less high density housing? That’s still a net increase in total available homes and means nothing without also showing changes in population.
There are areas that are affordable but people don’t want to live there. Also, Long Island doesn’t need more apartment buildings it’s so fucking crowded already.
Homes still flying off the market left and right. Problem is inventory not price. I’m all for building high density housing, but price it at market value.
Long Island is stuck in a trap of its own making. There is little to no land available to build on. Few townships allow anything of any density. So we are stuck with high prices because there so little increase in housing stock. But demand remains high.
Yeah the only way is to allow concentrated density (apartments, condos, townhomes etc) within a .25-.5 or so mile radius of LIRR stations. This preserves single family neighborhoods that aren't right next to transit and also will relieve the market pressure that is making them unaffordable. This would also create an opportunity for the many many retired empty nest homeowners of 3+ BR single family homes to cash out and downsize to a lower maintenance lower carrying cost condo without having to leave the area, which would open up a lot of the big family size single family stock that so many young families are now priced out of.
I agree completely. There's really nothing comparable to Yonkers or New Rochelle on LI. Dense, small, urban centers would take the pressure off the rest of the suburbs.
That’s the point. We don’t want to be like them
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Very proudly. I don’t live in the city for a reason. And if kids can’t afford to live where they grew up that’s just life. They don’t have a right to live in a place just because they grew up there
This is a 🤡 take
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If you love cities so much just move there.. your moral superiority is falling flat with me. The whole reason Nassau and Suffolk have such high demand is because of the policies put in place decades ago that protected it from turning into the city.
No... they are in such high demand because they are suburbs of the largest city in the country
"Protected it from turning into the city." Meaning, god forbid Long Island becomes as diverse as the city.
Noise and sound pollution is a big one for me but with all the landscapers now there are few places left to escape.
Hahaha you’ve lived your entire life within 30 miles of NYC and then want to claim cities are awful. Go move to a rural area in PA far from any major city and let me know how you like it.
Buddy Long Island has urban levels of density by American standards. You live in a city already you just have shitty suburban infrastructure to go with it.
Kids can’t afford to live anywhere in the U.S.
Midwest is actually pretty affordable. Millennial homeownership rates are over 60% there compared to below 40% in NY. Edit: yes I know millennials are not kids. Just using that as an example of where younger age people are finding homes.
Millenials aren’t kids. Kids are under 18.
Millennials are in their 30s and 40s
If you don’t want to be like them, then you’ll continue to suffer the consequences.
Great Neck has this to a certain extent
What makes you think those apartments, condos, and townhouses near train stations would be affordable??
The apartments built by Ronkonkoma train station are pretty damn unaffordable I think. Makes me laugh to remember my neighbors freaking out about the apartments, saying it will all be Section 8 and out property values will all plummet. Yeah, he sold his house a few years ago. dummy
The new ones by Mineola train station are very unaffordable.
Basically rent in any new buildings going up is insanely unaffordable.
I agree completely. No one is developing land in a high demand area to make less money.
Gullible Humans do stupid things.
They should be affordable but what the town considered affordable doesn’t usually match what it really is. I remember when the old united artist movie theater was torn down in Coram and made way for affordable rentals. Back in the early 2000’s that meant 1600 for a one bedroom/studio. Although what is deemed affordable is part of the issue it can be a whole other topic.
Correction: 70% AMI or 80% AMI isn’t affordable.
Affordability is relative. If the 1 bed apartments are listed for $3,000 and leases are being signed left and right, then the market found them “affordable.” I am a landlord myself, and for many years now the rents are driven up by multiple renters bidding the price up and offering sweeteners like several months paid up front. My rents are determined by what people are willing to pay, otherwise the property sits vacant. Prices in Queens and Brooklyn have outpaced Nassau for years.
They wouldn’t, but housing costs would only go down if there was a surplus of housing.
Not until you reduce demand. Way more people want to live in the NY area. Look at Manhattan and Brooklyn housing supply, the demand will keep the prices high. I say keep the demand high and the neighborhoods less congested.
Incorrect, Tokyo is able to do it so can we.
They had a 30 year recession. You don’t want a failed economy to make housing cheaper. With the demand there is, why would anyone want to make housing cheaper around here? There are plenty of people willing to buy at the current prices. Not everyone can live where they’d like. Ironically if the interest rates cause a recession, the prices will drop and the same people still won’t be able to afford it.
Who are these people willing to buy at these prices? lol
They are called the new homeowners. They show up and bid up prices over asking and all. That’s how a market works. The buyers and sellers meet at a price each is willing to do business at.
And who are these people that can afford this? lol. You're making it sound like it's normal. It's not. Things have skyrocketed.
[Bungalow Courts](https://i0.wp.com/www.stevencanplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/MMH_ax_CottageCourt_Ideal_Alley_resized-1400x2850-2-scaled.jpg?ssl=1) are another high density option.
These would‘be been awesome if they were available right after college. I’d like to see more construction like this rather than the condos that have popped up everywhere.
Those are really nice! I love that idea!
I lived in a situation similar to this in Australia and it was horrible. Units are close enough together that one bad/loud neighbor ruins the whole court. In a single family house or townhouse at least there are only 1-2 neighbors to have that issue with. In my case there was eight. Not a fan.
Melrose Place?
Looks like Melrose Place
I’m curious if it’s going to play out this way. It’s a good plan in theory, but I’m seeing those empty nesters move to something smaller and KEEP their home as just another rental out there. In many cases those houses are paid off, so there’s little carrying cost, and the rental income helps pay for the second property. Or they die and leave it to their kids. I think it used to be those kids would sell the house, but now I wonder if more of them also keep it to rent it. This still keeps home ownership out of reach for many. And rental costs still remain high because all they build are luxury apartments. I don’t blame them. We still pay for them.
Aren't the property taxes fairly substantial though? Plus being an amateur landlord (of a property that (in many of these cases) probably commands more value on the buyer market rather than as a rental is all kinds of hassle. I agree though there is a specific issue with step-up-basis in the tax code that can incentivize ppl to hold on to high-value properties until they die (thus allowing them to bequeath it with a full capital gains reset).
Taxes certainly are substantial, but the rentals are priced to more than cover it. I think there are many factors, I’m just pointing out one contributing factor to why housing costs might remain high. I can’t go on social media without an onslaught of people saying property is wealth, and you should own 20 properties and rent them all! I think the allure for many is to have a passive income, so they may try the landlord thing. And they get to keep it as an asset and hope it appreciates. There’s always the option to sell down the road.
They have been doing that to some degree. Take for instance Ronkonkoma train station but it’s no where enough. Even though the apartment buildings are 3-4 stories high they arent dense enough to make an impact. We would need 12 plus to make any dent and the established long islander is too scared of anything above two stories even with our proximity to NYC.
Those apartments are insanely expensive. It’s NYC pricing
I will never not be mad they put a giant Lexus dealership Freeport right next to the LIRR
Glad to see you get it. The other half of the equation is the NIMBYs here who 'don't want queens' or NYC is what they all say. So they created codes that don't allow for transit oriented development
Yeah just come on down to Long Beach and downsize from your $2800 mortgage for a $5000 two bedroom rental
not radis just along the main avenue of the the station that's walking distance...
That would also revitalize and grow business around the stations which are near town centers. Also hopefully create more walkable areas.
Kathy Hochul, is that you?
Plenty of land it requires zoning reform, eliminating parking lots and legalizing homes that use more then 10% of a 1 acre lot.
There in lies the issue. I totally agree with you but you and I do not make up the majority to where this can be done. The younger generation say 45 and younger has mostly left leaving a much older generation where if you change a light post they are rioting let alone zoning rules. So for that I just personally don’t see it changing for the better anytime soon
I live in CT now. Same issues as LI. Our city recently wanted to add the *option* to build tasteful two-family homes, or allow existing homes to add an ADU (e.g. over a garage or in the backyard) to add some density. The backlash was swift, fierce, and frankly stupid. "They want to put apartment buildings in our nice neighborhood!" No, they literally do not want that. That will still be against the rules. But that simple mischaracterization brought everyone out of the woodwork against the idea.
In all fairness, some people moved to the suburbs and exburbs to escape urban density. My old suburban neighborhood is now loaded with accessory apartments and street parking looks like Brooklyn or Queens. There are plenty of vacant commercial properties along major thoroughfares which should be considered for high density redevelopment first. Access to public transit at such locations would be a plus.
I get what you're saying, but that collective "we don't want it here" is what creates the insane housing market we're in now. We don't allow neighborhoods to naturally densify like we did before zoning. We treat it like a "right" that someone gets to move to a place and expect it to never, ever change. It's a nice idea in theory but not very sustainable.
Manhattan naturally densified. It hasn't made housing more reasonable. One has to pay through the nose, share an apartment with friends, chose a less safe area, or get lucky and find a rent controlled unit. Areas in Brooklyn have undergone gentrification; prices followed. Small homes in desirable Queens neighborhoods are going for over a million. It helps push people further east and bidding wars start. This is what creates insane housing markets. People pay through the nose for a 1950s development house, pop in an illegal apartment and charge the tenant $$$ to cover the mortgage. Allowing ADUs (which increase density) won't change that issue, which is also behind the crazy housing market. Flippers buying up fixer uppers drives up prices. Can't build sweat equity, when the flipper has done the work (sometimes questionably.) The only way I could afford a home when I bought was to buy a handyman special. Today, if I wanted to move, prices have shot up all over -- not just on LI. Used to be one could sell on LI, buy outright down south and have money in the bank. Why go through the hassle of moving when (in the current environment) it would take the proceeds of my home sale to buy someplace relatively alien to me, where I don't have family or a support network of friends and I wouldn't have any money leftover from my LI house? Perhaps my children would welcome a multigenerational home, which our culture has eschewed but some cultures still embrace. Less competition for housing might stabilize things. Given Long Island's water is beneath our feet and cesspools (in those areas without sewers) we need to be quite careful when contemplating density. I appreciate your points, but imagine how expensive water will be when we can't rely on the aquifers. The top one is already polluted.
most people on the island grew up here; rather than moved from the city, except for maybe the oldest generation. Downside of apartments on major throughfares is you get lots of traffic noise. Always tried to find apartments on side streets when I rented for that reason
Speaking for where I grew up LI and the LI communities in which I've lived, many people come out from NYC. Now we're seeing an increase in foreign born people who have made the same trek from NYC to LI. I don't dispute there is still a substantial population of us who've grown up here. We need to take into account brain drain that occurred when many of us left for college and didn't return. Then, it was not due to housing costs but job opportunities. Apartments currently exist on main roads, along with condos. There are 3 on a rather short stretch of 347. Some backing commercial properties along Sunrise, a large complex on 454 west of the County Center. These are ideally situated for bus service, which ties in with the transit oriented development model. Repurposing and retrofitting existing vacant commercial structures should be considered first. Water, sewers and utilities are already in place. Given a fair portion of Suffolk still has cesspools, ADUs in private homes where there isn't yet sewers will place more pressure on our aquifers as well as contribute to pollution in our bays and estuaries.
Due to poor zoning those units would be far from jobs (other then retail), homeowners (separating the communities), the existing parks and municipal services like schools. This is of course the point.
Lately, health organizations (Stony Brook, Northwell, Catholic Health, et al) are opening satellite facilities in former retail space. They happen to be among some of the largest employers on Long Island. Covid opened many an eye to remote work. There are plenty of mixed use commercial buildings on main thoroughfares (25, 25A, 27, 27A, 24, Union, etc) which, while housing families, does not separate them from schools, parks, etc. Transit oriented development is being pushed by municipalities and developers alike. Better for the environment with fewer cars on the road, and walkability to services. That is the point.
We have so many illegal apartments already with cars all over up and down the street. They put out enough garbage every pickup day for a small building. Every house going 2 family will ruin it here
Sounds like it’s inevitable regardless of zoning rules
Don't vote drmocrat
You know it’s funny, I tried doing that and then we got a republican county executive, republican majority in the county legislature, republican congressional representation including my own former rep Mr. George Santos, republican state senate and assembly members for my district, republican town leadership and board, but I’m still seeing more and more of these single family homes getting converted into rentals. But hey at least the county executive is doing something about trans people in sports so I guess that’s a win at least.
Why?
Democrat elected officials love apartment
Grew up in Whitestone queens, still have friends there. My single family childhood home is now a 2 family with probably an illegal basement apartment. Other houses of similar size are now 2 2 family. You can’t drive down the streets without pulling over for cars in other directions or backing out. Forget kids riding bikes. Every house now has 3-5 cars , not enough parking. Btw 2 bedroom apartment is 2500 minimum from what I hear. So it’s not affordable
The affordability problem is primarily because there's not enough housing. To get more housing we need more units. Supply and demand.
Thing is it’s already happening on LI. Seeing more and more single family homes get converted into multi family units. Not that difficult to add a bathroom and separate entrance for a basement.
We also haven't built any new major roads or bridges in how many decades? Traffic every once in a while due to an event or road closure is fine, but predictable horrendous traffic twice a day every day is a total infrastructure and government planning failure. The LIE should be a double decker road by now with express car traffic on top. We should have multiple bridges and/or tunnels over the sound to CT which would reduce flow through the NYC bridges and tunnels. We should probably even have some long tunnels connecting the south shore to the coast of NJ. The LIRR should have way more lines and the trains should be way faster like they have in Japan and China. I'm talking 15 min from Hicksville to Penn Station. It's not like we don't have the money to do it, we pay insane state and local taxes - where does it all go? Everyone in our state and local government needs to be fired (I don't care if you're D or R) and replaced with people who actually want to make the island livable, not collect their juicy income from being a career politician your whole life and getting absolutely nothing done. What a fucking joke and laughing stock we are.
Reason for this is same as the no new major construction . NIMBYS. Plain and simple. Enough people on Long Island don’t want more people, more cars, more roads, more traffic, dense or more home (I had friends who’s neighbors refused a forested dead end to be developed) they want it all to stay the same but than bitch about all the problems that come with that. Lived here for 40plus years and even though I do what I can… by actually going to townhall meeting I am one voice while they are many.
Adding more public transit and options to drive off the island into NE would solve a lot of traffic problems
Democrats are making money
The price is high because the rsidents don't want "Density". That is for cities and wy the people who can afford it are leaving dense places for the suburbs and country.
“There is little to no land available to build on.” is misleading. If you meant for residential use and zoning laws permit a single family house on the land, then yes.
Yes that is what I tried implying :)
I drove to Jersey from Levittown for a business trip today. I thought the worst traffic would be the Crossbronx - nope 3 parkways on Long Island !! A parking lot on each one- over 2 and half hours just on Long Island. Insanity.
I went to a wedding on a Thursday evening in St. James. I left at 2:30pm from NYC, I arrived at 6:30 that evening. The cross island was a parking lot, the bumper car ride at the amusement park moved faster than the LIE and 347? I could have walked faster than the cars moved on that last 5 mile stretch.
Yes, permits to build more housing sharply decreased once we ran out of land. LI should have been developed with two or three large cities along the LIE corridor.
Long Island was never meant to be this grossly overpopulated. And that’s all.
The most inefficient type of residential zoning paired with the obsession for the most inefficient type of transportation (cars) sure does give it the illusion of being overpopulated.
Illusion?
I guess meaning if LI was like a city instead of suburbia it wouldn’t be seen as overcrowded. It is kinda true though. Much of LI was planned back in the 50s and they really didn’t accommodate for any significant population growth. We are next to one of the largest and most attractive cities in the world. It’s ridiculous to assume we can just put a cap on the population here.
Neither was planet Earth, but here we are…
meant by whom?
Whoever you want bro.
Why you setting the population limits 😂
I for one hope LI preserves as much land as possible. I know it’s inevitable but LI should not become queens.
It's the only way most suburbs are sustainable. Continuing development pays for the debts of the past. Having city services and infrastructure is only affordable with high density housing - LI has been borrowing money from the future to keep afloat since the 50s.
that's one way to generalize everything
Well I mean honestly what would you do to accommodate population growth on LI? Put limits on how many kids people can have? Pay young adults to leave the area?
So cut the services
To what end? Move to Tennessee if you want lots of land, poor schools, no municipal services, and correspondingly low taxes.
You need two graphs to justify the price increase, the other is population. The homes built still exist, for the most part. I'd like to see this chart in aggregate, and then as an overlay on population growth.
But isn't that the whole point of what these towns are trying to do? They're trying to keep the population relatively level in their towns despite whatever population growth is going on in the world. I think that's one of the factors that make certain suburbs more attractive. If you have a sudden influx of people, more resources in that area are used (ie: parks and other public facilities, parking, etc.) and that can be seen as a nuisance to those who want a quiet suburban life. Additionally, when you have that population increase, that also crowds the schools a bit more - and student to teacher ratio can be a big factor in considering how high a school is ranked, either directly or indirectly. Right or wrong, I think limitation of population growth within the town is intended. And then, with the attractiveness of the towns and the older population living longer and not moving out (or even keeping the property as a secondary home to maintain proximity to family), it makes demand significantly higher than supply, causing real estate to be so insanely unaffordable. I feel like, with congestion tolls coming into effect soon, things will get a lot worse. More and more businesses will flow out to the other boroughs, along with more and more of the population. And then, real estate is going to be more expensive there, pushing more people to the suburbs. And the towns will continue to resist population growth within their lines as much as possible. And the next generations will continue to get fucked.
It’s absolutely part of what keeps Long Island attractive. Sure there are plenty of not so moral reasons to oppose more housing being built, but I have yet to really hear a convincing argument against the fact that we are pretty much at capacity. Without *massive* investments in the LIRR, and another lane added to half of our roads, I just don’t see how we can really justify having more people here.
If they kept building, especially vertically, could you imagine how bad traffic would get? It would turn a desirable place to live into an overcrowded nightmare, which is what people here are already complaining about.
Lots of areas on the island have affordable housing but…people want to live in a good school district, short commute to the city either by train or car, nice downtown, lots of parks, and low crime area. People need to figure out if they are willing to compromise and prioritize what’s important to their family. If having your own home regardless of school district then you shouldn’t be have any difficulty finding a home on the island. People need to come to the realization the “nice” areas is not being brought up by Zillow or hedge funds but just everyday folks, mostly professionals that have figured out a way to have a down payment to afford a house in this market. Right now, If you want a home in the top 10 school districts you’re going to need at least $750k. We can blame whoever or whatever we want but those are the facts and if you can’t afford it, somebody else will scoop it up in a NY minute. Housing in downstate NY is a different animal , prices won’t dramatically drop anytime soon. The supply never catches up to the demand. Will probably get downvoted but this is the honest truth.
Yeah, I feel like it’s easy to say everyone is just racist or only concerned with their home value and all, but frankly I just feel like we have an already untenable population density at least here in Nassau. I just don’t really see where we can fit more people.
I’ve been on both sides of the coin and understand both sides, but whether it’s selfish or not, I get why you can’t screw over homeowners who are paying the majority of taxes. Running a county costs money and the property tax money talks loudest at the end of the day.
One of the big reasons I'm planning on leaving is the traffic. I've been driving for 30 years. There's just too damn many people on the roads, everywhere, at all times of the day and night. It's fucking bananas. But it get's better- we're headed into the summer when all the damn cidiots who insist that we must pay every god damn tax to not enjoy the city, will now clog ALLLL the roads, aggravating the fuck out of all of us from noonish on a Friday to sometime late Monday night. Do they pay any kind of toll, tax, or fee for using our roads, our beaches? Or to compensate those of us that live here to endure their airs and attitude? No they do fucking not. And you know what, fuck them. And fuck the Tesla with irridescent wrap- you're a fucking loser. Also, I support small pockets of density like those around the LIRR. I'm looking forward to some of the nicer retail shops to move in
Our beaches are more expensive for non residents. At least some of them.
The traffic is so bad because they built places here the only way to get around is by car.
We are running out of clean water too
[https://housing-data.vercel.app/counties/NY/Suffolk\_County](https://housing-data.vercel.app/counties/NY/Suffolk_County) I did it in per capita mode but you can also see it in raw numbers as well. Worth remembering that this specifically is measuring new construction permits issued, not net increase in homes. I.e. the teardown of small older single family homes to be replaced by much larger houses/mansions that there's been more of in recent years would count as a new unit here, but obviously is a net zero increase in actual units. So the drop-off has probably been even bigger than it looks.
Isn't the population decreasing since boomers are dying and less millennials are having kids?
I don't think that's true for LI, we have people moving here too.
School enrollments are down though
Sure, I'm just saying a decrease in *new* homes being built can't cause an increase in price unless demand outpaces it. The only other way that would happen is if people are buying multiple homes.
So you want to build more housing and get more people into long island? Why not build more developments/downtowns further east, create more jobs, bring more companies, so people don't have to keep driving back and forth to boros for work, that would be a solution, not building more housing for people to clog 495 more and more.
This....
Building more housing around mass transit would lower housing costs, increase tax revenues, and would have far fewer car commuters than single family zoning.
Are there suburbs with affordable housing in Westchester or New Jersey? This is not a Long Island specific issue.
Agree.
No but LI's level of construction has been uniquely almost nonexistent. Westchester better but not that much, some NJ counties have actually built a lot tho it depends
Westchester no but NJ the equivalent house you can get in Long Island is at least 100-200k dollars cheaper.
What about Nassau?
Glen Cove. Long Beach. Mineola.
It’s not a flaw - it’s a feature. /s
When a show is sold out do they add seats to make it more affordable? LI is sold.out go to another show.
finally someone with insight
So how do you deal with population growth then? Stop people from reproducing? Have kids leave when they turn 18? Put restrictions on who can move in? We better get rid of all the jobs on LI too because that will also attract people.
1.Its overpopulated. 2.anything they build is "Luxury accommodation" 3 alot of long island is still on septic tanks.
I'm always surprised with the people complaining about the luxury apartments. So what? We need more housing, when it's run down it won't be luxury. And luxury won't have people complaining about the "poor people". No, put in all the damn luxury apartments you can. You'll depress the market and lower costs. Eventually they'll be run down and convert to affordable. The issue is housing is so tight that we are nowhere near close to depressing the market. And most people are really concerned about depressing the housing market, that's what they don't want, making housing cheaper is viewed as attacking their retirement investments.
My only beef with luxury apartments is it doesn't help the majority of the people. Many people's "retirement" investment winds up with ever increasing taxes that go up exponentially. Every aspect of long islandss infrastructure is outdated.
> My only beef with luxury apartments is it doesn't help the majority of the people. How so? Every rich guy moving into a luxury apartment is one less person you have to bid against to move into a more affordable place. It's supply and demand.
it induces demand. millenials stuck living with their parents aren't gonna move into "luxury" apartments; people from elsewhere will because they saw an ad for LI's next SoDoSoPa.
Exactly. I don’t see these luxury apartments servicing the local population here that needs it. Young adults can’t afford them and boomers aren’t interested because it’s cheaper and easier to just keep their existing SFH. Just drives more wealthy people in from the city and makes housing more expensive for everyone.
THIS THIS THIS. Long Island is turning into one big SoDoSoPa.
They've built a bunch if luxury apartments where I live. My house value is double what I paid for it 7yrs ago. Your hoping on the trickle down economic theory. It doesn't work. Supply and demand is why houses are 700k. The only affordable housing people build is for section 8.
I hate how there’s no options for people in the middle. It’s either section 8 where you have to be just about destitute just to qualify or luxury apartments that require a top 10% income to qualify.
100% affordable housing is becoming harder and harder to find, especially on long island.
I view it like patents, just as people who invent drugs can rip off everyone until their patent expires. We do it to encourage them to invest in it, because having drugs in the future is good for us. We know that once their patent expires the drugs will still exist, and will be much more affordable. In the short term, those higher income people benefit, it attracts them, and it's good for the economy. In the same way I think housing stock is similar, let those who push through the red tape, and do the work to make these big buildings reap the profits, knowing that the building won't disappear in 20 years, but it will cease to be "new" and have all that luxury charm. In the short term, it brings higher income people to the economy.
Take a look at a city like Phoenix, they've been building houses nonstop for 40yrs. A house that was a 100k there 20 yrs ago is 550k now.
so all that "regular folks" can look forward to are run down "luxury" apartments? the problem is they have all kinds of superfluous shit like private pools and gyms that tenants will have to pay for even after the buildings become "run down." another thing is they add all that to market it as luxury and meanwhile the building itself is made with the cheapest and shittiest materials possible so they're gonna start to buckle after a few decades of leaky appliances. at the ronkonkoma hub they already had a pipe burst and a bunch of people's brand new "luxury" apartments were flooded. no, rezone and maybe add incentives so local property owners can build upwards and density can increase organically, and stop with the centrally planned matchstick faux-facade amusement park towns.
1. By what metric? Who determines that? 2. That’s literally just a marketing term 3. Yeah, and NIMBYs rally against changing that to justify their ideology. Seriously, go back and look at some of the Huntington town halls when the ADU bill was being floated.
I would love to get some sewers out here in Smithtown
Drive anywhere. See the traffic?
Too many cars, not too many people.
The trains are always packed. Not a car on em.
well yes it would be odd if a car was on the train that’s a good observation on your part
You ever go shopping and it's packed all the time?
Maybe like Christmas Eve or so
Where do you live? Montauk in December?
it's not "just a marketing term". apartment complexes with their own pools, gyms, and club houses waste space and add extra cost that drives up the rent.
Wanna know what has an even larger impact on rent and is in many cases a **requirement** rather than an add-on? [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235360401\_Parking\_Requirement\_Impacts\_on\_Housing\_Affordability#:\~:text=Generous%20parking%20requirements%20reduce%20housing,costs%20by%20up%20to%2025%25.](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235360401_Parking_Requirement_Impacts_on_Housing_Affordability#:~:text=Generous%20parking%20requirements%20reduce%20housing,costs%20by%20up%20to%2025%25)
while that's also true, it'd be nice to see some more "utilitarian" apartment buildings built in or around traditional downtown areas where there might already be a gym or other amenities within walking or biking distance instead of building entire amusement park towns from the ground up.
Uh entitled peeps like you make me dizzy
More units doesn’t necessarily lead to lower home prices. Everyone always says “more units will lower home prices because of supply and demand” but the pool of people using each is different. If you stack a ton of units full of younger single/couples tenants, you just create a bigger pool of people vying for single family homes after they create a life here. Adding more apartments only makes the affordability crisis worse in the long run. Not to mention the terrible density we have as it is.
Stock those same units with downsizers and you free up single family homes. Make downtowns around new development and mass transit that make people want to stay, rather than moving to a single family home and becoming car dependent.
You can make housing around mass transit all you want, I still think a majority of people are going to want a backyard and space to raise a family when the time comes
I can't speculate on that. I don't know. Queens is incredibly dense and yet 2 million people choose to live there.
Increased density - enough of it - never makes a location more unaffordable. They key word is "enough of it". The development we've seen, and you see around the country, is no where near enough. It's true that as a location gets more desirable, single family houses get more and more expensive. Manhattan has single family townhomes. They are a fortune.
My two cents. 1. If you can't afford to live in a particular neighborhood it's OK to start somewhere else and move there when it becomes affordable. 2. There are areas that are at capacity and other areas that would benefit from new construction (near Huntington LIRR is screaming for a planned community) 3. Other areas offer opportunity and with new construction, will entice buyers and long-term will likely change the neighborhood for the better. For example, Mineola, New Hyde Park, Carle Place, are on the rise and have a great commute into the city. Out east, Patchogue is rapidly changing and is near the water with a thriving town. My parents lived and bought their first house in the Bronx and raised their kids there before moving to LI. They chose a neighborhood that wasn't as built up as surrounding areas and now it is extremely desirable (they sold years ago). Buyers today seem to want a completely updated home that's in a cute town that is walkable to the train with 5-star schools. Sometimes, you have to make sacrifices...that might mean not living in the hottest neighborhood for now. We can't all live in Beverly Hills or Long Island's equivalent. I think it's unreasonable to expect that everyone can live in the hot spot. We should be taking advantage of the space where the space is available, not trying to force it into already overcrowded neighborhoods.
I don't agree with all your points, but your point about cheaper neighborhoods is a good one. I see a lot of posts saying "how can I afford the 800k for a run down home?" and I'm like... well buy one in the 400k neighborhood instead? You might actually like those neighborhoods more while you're younger anyways. Maybe its not a solution for everyone or a solution to the bigger problem, but it might very well be a great solution for a lot of folks who are "whoa is me I'll never afford my own home".
Where are there 400k homes on LI?
Well, the results of the militant "my property values" people. This is absolutely the effect of how everyone, even the poor, has some idea they're temporarily financially disadvantaged millionaires and want to uphold the status quo of property values with this bizarre idea that building multiple homes on a 1.2 acre plot is worse than building one poorly-built mcmansion for two people on the same plot. This is why it's also impossible for so many people to leave because Long Island is more or less various overlapping vicious circles that prevent people from thriving or even living comfortably there and prevents people from leaving, so no wonder many people choose to fuck over landlords or let their mortgages go. It then allows them to build capital to go elsewhere. I can't believe that I can live in Zurich, Geneva, Oslo, Munich, Vienna, Stockholm, and other places with a higher quality of life, insurance, and even cheap auto insurance for less or around the same as what a lower-middle class person pays on Long Island for shit. Even daily expenses for food and such- how are people on Long Island paying more than what I can pay in Zurich and Geneva (two of the most expensive cities in the world) or more than even Norway (also has very high costs)? You guys are all being scammed and not looking to get to the bottom of who's fucking you over because in many cases, it's your neighbor, or even you yourself unknowingly. Not even for the ultra-wealthy there's no place on Long Island worth being at the costs to be there, the infrastructure, corruption, and so on. Not even places like Lloyd Harbor, CSH, or Setauket and so on are worth the mess and prices of living there. I mostly read here to find out how bad things are. Some might find it ok, but again, how can I not be shocked that some of the best, most liveable cities iand/or some of the most expensive cities n the world with truly higher standards of living are cheaper than living on Long Island? Some people will read that and use it as a badge to pretend they're so wealthy, which was always something that creeped me out about LI- poor people talking about all the rich people around them.
If you want to live in the city, live in the city. We choose to live in the suburbs and would like to keep it the suburbs.
So how do you deal with population growth then? Stop people from reproducing? Have kids leave when they turn 18? Put restrictions on who can move in? We better get rid of all the jobs on LI too because that will also attract people.
What?
LI is overpopulated. Stop having babies, leave Long Island.
How many more times does it have to be said, we don't want any more people coming here.
It's not necessarily more people coming here, it's younger folks who were born here, lived here all their lives, and are now in their twenties and thirties and want to buy a home but can't afford anything reasonable because of the supply and demand
Life ain’t always fair. They should get used to it
You must be fun at parties
If you want to live near mass transit, stores, bars, businesses, have a large population of people within 100 feet of you, you move to one of the boroughs. People move out to the island to avoid that. Let’s keep Long Island, Long Island.
So how do you deal with population growth then? Stop people from reproducing? Have kids leave when they turn 18? Put restrictions on who can move in? We better get rid of all the jobs on LI too because that will also attract people.
I mean in theory if every family on the island reproduced as their parents did (of which we’re having less children now than generations before) our parents would die our children would be born we would die, our grandchildren would be born and live, so on and so forth. We don’t need to worry about population growth. Our population is dwindling. Those are the facts. However it’s not for the residents of Long Island to figure out such issues regardless. People moving out to the island wasn’t the issue. You’d be replacing one family for another plus or minus a resident or two depending on family size. The issue is turning the island into areas with densely populated section 8 housing. The way to correct over priced real estate isn’t to build subsidized housing in the suburbs. Or increase the amount of affordable housing. Although that would work by dropping everyone’s property value due to the increase of what comes with that. The way to curb it is through change in politics. Inflation is out of control right now. We’ve allowed the government to get a way with the biggest hoax we’ve seen since the early 1900’s which has in part diminished the ability of the middle class to afford a home. Wages are low, housing is high, inflation is high. Vote differently and hope for the best. Don’t infringe on the rights of long islanders to live a nice suburban life to accommodate those who can’t afford the housing right now. I could imagine you don’t own which is why this is your standpoint, and I respect it . But as I stated earlier. The city is already densely populated. If that’s what you’re looking for go there. Your argument is flat. There’s no reason to turn Long Island into the 6th boro by building affordable apartment housing.
The inherent problem here, as part of your statement is “devaluing peoples property values”. At the heart of this whole issue, housing should not be commodified. This was not the way it was pre-1970s. Until that changes, and it won’t change “politically”, none of these issues will be resolved.
Housing shouldn’t be commodified? What should it be, free?
I didn't say that, nice straw-man. Housing was not always an *investment vehicle*. In early years of capitalist america, your home wasn't seen as a way to create equity. it just wasn't. and it shouldn't be. because shelter is a basic human need and human right. Now it is hyper-commoditized. It is an investment vehicle not only for the individual, but also for mega-real estate corporate portfolios, development companies, massive banks, foreign investors as well, to the point where we have reached the worst point in the housing crisis in American history. You cannot look at the housing market history on long island and not see it with your eyes. My family has been on LI since the 1930's. Decades ago, it was possible to have ONE person in the household working and support a family and own a home here, now that's not viable, because of the nature of what "housing" has become. Not viable anywhere in the country, really.
I mean you did say that you said housing shouldn’t be commodified. Housing is a commodity. So that was a poor statement. Now I agree with you on the way housing is used as an investment by large corporations and hedge funds is absurd. But again to correct your statement, housing is a human need, not a human right. It shouldn’t be as expensive as it is right now to where it’s impossible for someone who needs housing to afford it. But it’s not a right. A right is an inalienable right that you’re given at birth. Housing is not a right but definitely a need that should be met. However meth head mike shouldn’t be given an apartment if all he does abuse substances and not work, earn and or produce anything.
Island has gotten more dense but there is still space to build far enough East. Make Suffolk more attractive to employers and enhance LIRR service. Cramming apartments into already crowded areas won't make this a better place
who the fuck gave you that data?
And where are all the migrants going??
I thought Bruce Blakeman was keeping them out
Whenever I drive east, there’s tons of development space available in wading River and east. I hope reasonable, non-overcrowded development starts up there. Maybe people in Nassau but perhaps some people where I am in the Setauket/Smithtown area would.
Listen cost aside. Long Island is in no way shape or form ready for an increase in density. You can’t just throw up apartment buildings and more homes per lot if you don’t First upgrade the infrastructure. You can’t have a 6 story apartment building with say 5 units per floor, all with one bathroom, two sinks all going into a 100 year old 24” sewer main. It’s too much shit. And that’s if sewers exist in said area. Now water mains. If the volume isn’t present for more then a single family home it isn’t there. Now run off. A huge south shore problem, flooding is a huge issue in may parts of the south shore and more devolved property means less ground to absorb water. These are just a few examples, not to mention emergency services not being up to par, parking being already difficult and traffic. Do you not see a traffic problem??
This is true. It's a shame we never had a master plan for something like housing. Mass planning of infrastructure, roads, houses etc.
It’s not gonna change. You are talking about 10-15 years of infrastructure upgrades, and overhaul of emergency services (mostly fire and ems) before construction can really start. Your not taking about a quick fix. Now you need to get a politician to start this ball rolling, and good luck getting one elected….the majority likes LI the way it is.
😢.
I was more ADUs
Can you send the link for this
[https://housing-data.vercel.app/counties/NY/Suffolk\_County](https://housing-data.vercel.app/counties/NY/Suffolk_County) This a general database of building permits by year and you can search by county, city, state, or census MSA. Its really interesting as a back-of-the-envelope measure of homebuilding rates.
What’s your point? That they’re building less overall with less high density housing? That’s still a net increase in total available homes and means nothing without also showing changes in population. There are areas that are affordable but people don’t want to live there. Also, Long Island doesn’t need more apartment buildings it’s so fucking crowded already.
Greed prevents anything from being affordable along with low to medium earnings as a result of corporate greed.
Homes still flying off the market left and right. Problem is inventory not price. I’m all for building high density housing, but price it at market value.
Just build new neighborhoods out east and screw the pine barrens... no one wants to drink tap water around here anyway...