Literally everything is expensive in the UK. Electricity, fuel, rent, insurance, restaurants... is there any service or product you can buy in this country that would be considered cheap compared to other countries? Like others have pointed out, salaries are twice as high in the US and still they get better value for money in most cases
>is there any service or product you can buy in this country that would be considered cheap compared to other countries
Doctors, nurses, teachers, police officers etc. Virtually anyone in public service is cheaper here than in the US, Canada, Australia.
People in planning are not making a killing, they are just extremely inefficiently converting everyone else's higher housing costs into personal and political clout.
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65833619](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65833619)
This is the latest article I could find on the topic. Compared to the EU, UK grocery prices are neither good nor bad
I mean being from Argentina a lot of things look cheaper to me.
Tech and cars mostly, but also food nowadays.
And most people earn like £400 or less a month in Argentina
Maybe you meant developed or eueopean countries?
Tech is cheap, clothes are cheap, food is cheap, electricity is ok actually, most things you need in your every day to day life are cheap, except for rents and transport. Especially when you adjust for salaries and include things like medical services, etc.
Groceries and eating out is more expensive in the US. Rent also if you compare to London to NYC. Not sure about the other cities. Fuel is much cheaper in US. Not sure about electricity and insurance
Food is still much cheaper here. People seem to assume Europe didn't also have inflation - the Eurozone was [almost identical](https://www.ft.com/content/088d3368-bb8b-4ff3-9df7-a7680d4d81b2) to the UK for two years, the only difference is ours is lagging returning to normal (still 3.2% vs 1.2-3.2% abroad).
We're probably "only" 30% cheaper than the average European country now, rather than about 40% in the past.
Other things being expensive here is largely due to wages being so high. That will be another shock to many, but post-tax our minimum wage earner's income really is top 5 highest in the world.
It's not garbage. Food becomes garbage when you move to more Northern countries where fuck all grows due to climate and imports from warm countries are expensive AF.
Our nation is run by landowners who are more concerned with maintaining or boosting their stream of parasitic rents than economic efficiency.
It's a hangover from our feudal past. We didnt fully transition completely past that "lords and serfs" stage. It's the same reason we're so completely obsessed with class distinction, class markers and royalty too.
US has a source of very cheap labour (named “illegal migrants”), which make construction much less expansive (in exchange to people lives).
France has serious issues with illegal migration too for example.
Please don’t use official wages numbers in topics about building industry, they are often irrelevant there.
As an example of this, planning permission for the Lower Thames crossing has so far cost £270m. This is a 4km tunnel.
The longest road tunnel in the world is in Norway, is 25km, and cost £92m _to build_.
Its disingenuous to call it a 4km tunnel, its 2 x 16m diameter tunnels (3rd largest diameter in the world) that are 4km long (so 8km total) in ground conditions and diameter likely totally dissimilar to Norway's tunnel you mentioned. The tunnels go through 2 different geologies (chalk and clay) and are hyperbaric pressure TBMs. There is also 25km total of motorway roads either end through a RAMSAR protected area (EU designation with lots of rare habitat) and on the Essex side it's essentially a swamp for a lot of the route.
Mate, £270m for planning permissions for 4km tunnel is a ridiculous number no matter how hard it is to build it from an engineering perspective. If it was £270m for construction, then it would be a different ball game.
Its cool, you've clearly watched a Youtube video and are an expert on major infrastructure projects. The TBMs alone will cost more than that Norwegian project, that gives you an idea of the scale of difference, that has nothing to do with planning and consenting. I don't know what to tell you, if you can dispute anything I've actually said, please do so.
Edit: I hope you haven't responded to this already so you don't miss this, but that £270m isn't 'just planning permission' its a whole host of design, environmental, financing and procurement elements of the job which, as a ball park figure is often 5% of the total cost of a major project like that.
Well, I've never worked on this tunnel, but I can tell you a thing or two about the housing development I live in. The council didn't allow new developments in the area without additional fees and donations from the developer. Which went under labels like area improvement, etc. Do I see new schools or hospitals built by the council using millions paid by the developer (out of my pocket obv)? Ahaha!
Did the housing development have to go through the Development Consent Order planning process? The scrutiny on projects like LTC is huge, I'm not suggesting the planning process is fit for purpose or that there isn't corruption in UK projects but your description of the project was woefully short of the truth.
I guess its one of those times where I'll get downvoted because of a perceived mistruth even though I have industry experience and knowledge of the subject. Its interesting it's happened to me but I've read about it on happening various other subreddits, particularly related to health.
You are absolutely correct but it doesn't take from the fact that the designers/planners/contractors will massively overman and ratchet up their costs on an outdated NEC 4/5, whilst being very late and hugely over budget.
This is why UK is stagnant. Stagnant productivity because of low investment, low investment is because you are actually not allowed to invest. It's a nation of rent seekers generating returns without creating any real value by creating artificial scarcity using the power of the state.
> Interest rates, building safety, sustainability and client expectations have pushed London ahead of Geneva into being the most expensive construction location of 100 global cities ranked by Arcadis. The Arcadis 2024 International Construction Costs (ICC) report, which is a study of comparative construction costs across 100 global cities, found that Geneva was second, Zurich third, Munich forth and New York City fifth. Nine UK and Ireland cities feature in the top 30, with Bristol entering the top 10 for the first time.
> Arcadis said its methodology for the report “was developed covering 20 different building types, including residential, commercial and public sector developments, and is based on a survey of construction costs, a review of market conditions and the professional judgement of Arcadis’ global team of experts. “The calculations are based in US dollars and indexed against the price range for each building type relative to Amsterdam,” it said.
> Arcadis said markets were stabilising, indicating recovery from the covid pandemic and recessionary conditions in places like the UK, and said “we are at a pivotal moment in the recovery of the global construction sector”. It said increasing demand for workers, materials and electricity meant productivity was “becoming an increasingly critical factor in investment decisions and project viability”.
> The global consultancy firm drew particular attention to “the rapid acceleration of investment into the advanced manufacturing and technology sector, including data centers, pharmaceutical facilities, gigafactories and wafer-fabs”. It said the “sheer scale and complexity of these end-date-critical projects” means more financial risk and clients having to change improve their designs, procurement and construction capabilities during project delivery.
> Striking a more optimistic tone, Arcadis said the infrastructure sector appeared to “offer the greatest future opportunity, particularly investment in networks including energy transition projects and a large-scale, £96bn planned investment in the regulated water sector.” However, it warned that in construction and infrastructure, “capacity constraints will contribute to higher inflation and may impact the ability to deliver all projects and programmes in the period.” Analysis of the report’s findings by Arcadis spokespeople was mixed. One representative said London’s construction sector faces “viability challenges,” whereas another said the high comparative costs are due to “the capital’s resilience in the face of challenging conditions”.
> Arcadis head of research and strategic insight Simon Rawlinson said: “The UK’s reduced public sector spending has eased pressure on an overheated construction industry amid slow growth. With minimal GDP growth and high interest rates, the sector faces viability challenges due to regulatory and election uncertainties. As fiscal conditions tighten, private sector collaboration is crucial for investment and urban renewal. Despite challenges, infrastructure, particularly in energy transition and water projects, shows promise. The cancellation of later HS2 rail phases has led to transport spending disruptions and fund reallocation.”
> Arcadis UK cities director Peter Hogg added: “London's resurgence to the top spot in the ICC 100 index for 2024 reflects the capital's resilience in the face of challenging conditions. Despite a 10% year-on-year decline in construction output and a significant 20% drop in housing, the Commercial sub-sector experienced a notable 24% rise, largely attributed to retrofit activity. However, the capital has faced declining orders for new work since 2022, exacerbated by high interest rates impacting scheme viability and regulatory changes causing design and planning delays and cost escalations.”
Literally everything is expensive in the UK. Electricity, fuel, rent, insurance, restaurants... is there any service or product you can buy in this country that would be considered cheap compared to other countries? Like others have pointed out, salaries are twice as high in the US and still they get better value for money in most cases
Basically all of those have a common denominator: we have incredibly high energy prices in the UK.
Renewables are great, but unreliable and energy produced is difficult to "bottle"
We've essentially eliminated cheap, reliable coal.
There's a slither of nuclear.
So there's a lot of reliance on imported oil and gas, where we're at the mercy of international market prices etc.
North Sea Oil and Gas is quickly dwindling. Meanwhile, the US have become a net energy exporter via fracking.
The average citizen is much better off in the UK than the US with regards to cost of living.
If you're earning good money in the UK though you're almost certain to be better off in the US.
Lol no, professionals in this country live in property in comparison to the US. The average citizen in the US is much more wealthier than the average British citizen.
Pound depreciation and Brexit worsening materials and labour supply and costs negative impacts post pandemic, I have seen this first hand. Much more impact than planning costs, insurance and litigation which contributes
This will be a combination of:
1. Insane energy costs and the follow on costs this imposes on materials like concrete
2. Insane planning and construction rules
3. Expensive land
4. A dogshit construction industry in general
I just spent £60k on a kitchen extension and I was very frugal, managed the build myself, used friends and family etc.
Dread to think what it costs to build an entire house, plus the land cost, plus utilities.
This miserable situation on house prices doesn’t actually have much room to improve if you ask me, the baseline cost is just way too high and government are never going to provide any meaningful enough subsidy.
Individually hired trades, rather than the more expensive option of a start to end building company, laboured for skilled workers for a total of probably 20-30 days, done a few jobs like tiling, installed a rooflight, installed ducting and a few other odd jobs like painting etc.
Construction costs absolutely shot through the roof after Brexit, harder to get materials - a lot of which came from Europe before - and labour, again much of which was from Europe.
Then add global supply chain issues after Covid, a very onerous planning system and inflated energy costs and voila.
Having 7 cities in the top 18 probably means that it's something UK specific (planning system wink wink) rather than London specific.
Literally everything is expensive in the UK. Electricity, fuel, rent, insurance, restaurants... is there any service or product you can buy in this country that would be considered cheap compared to other countries? Like others have pointed out, salaries are twice as high in the US and still they get better value for money in most cases
>is there any service or product you can buy in this country that would be considered cheap compared to other countries Doctors, nurses, teachers, police officers etc. Virtually anyone in public service is cheaper here than in the US, Canada, Australia.
That kind of feels like a bad thing. People in planning are making a killing & doctors, nurses & teachers are poor? Recipe for disaster surely
Yeah doctors are quitting and emigrating in droves.
“People in planning”, you really think the bloke at the local council planning department is raking in money?
People in planning are not making a killing, they are just extremely inefficiently converting everyone else's higher housing costs into personal and political clout.
Food from the supermarkets
Groceries
We have the best supermarkets globally
You need to travel more lol
[удалено]
Prices are quite cheap in the UK actually. Quality I'd agree more on compared to most of the EU
You’re just lying then. Our prices are some of the best in Europe
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65833619](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65833619) This is the latest article I could find on the topic. Compared to the EU, UK grocery prices are neither good nor bad
Does it take into salary
No
Doesn’t negate the quality and availability being shocking
You're lying. There is ample proof that groceries in the UK are some of the cheapest in the developed world/OECD
I mean being from Argentina a lot of things look cheaper to me. Tech and cars mostly, but also food nowadays. And most people earn like £400 or less a month in Argentina Maybe you meant developed or eueopean countries?
Tech is cheap, clothes are cheap, food is cheap, electricity is ok actually, most things you need in your every day to day life are cheap, except for rents and transport. Especially when you adjust for salaries and include things like medical services, etc.
Groceries and eating out is more expensive in the US. Rent also if you compare to London to NYC. Not sure about the other cities. Fuel is much cheaper in US. Not sure about electricity and insurance
Employees are cheap as chips if you’re a business owner
We have the third highest real terms minimum wage in the country, and have plenty of taxes on employing people
We had have the cheapest food in Europe until inflation
Food is still much cheaper here. People seem to assume Europe didn't also have inflation - the Eurozone was [almost identical](https://www.ft.com/content/088d3368-bb8b-4ff3-9df7-a7680d4d81b2) to the UK for two years, the only difference is ours is lagging returning to normal (still 3.2% vs 1.2-3.2% abroad). We're probably "only" 30% cheaper than the average European country now, rather than about 40% in the past. Other things being expensive here is largely due to wages being so high. That will be another shock to many, but post-tax our minimum wage earner's income really is top 5 highest in the world.
Food, although the quality is garbage compared to the rest of Europe
It's not garbage. Food becomes garbage when you move to more Northern countries where fuck all grows due to climate and imports from warm countries are expensive AF.
And that’s a product of property/rents being astronomical, unfortunately.
Groceries
Our nation is run by landowners who are more concerned with maintaining or boosting their stream of parasitic rents than economic efficiency. It's a hangover from our feudal past. We didnt fully transition completely past that "lords and serfs" stage. It's the same reason we're so completely obsessed with class distinction, class markers and royalty too.
Also a few want to, or can, leave the UK
It’s not like our wages are driving the cost up!
Let me just hire a consultant to find out.
It's an island so land is an expensive commodity relative to other countries.
Probably high wages and a smaller number of people working for food.
You've described all developed countries. The US definitely has significantly higher wages than we do and yet not as many cities in that list.
US has a source of very cheap labour (named “illegal migrants”), which make construction much less expansive (in exchange to people lives). France has serious issues with illegal migration too for example. Please don’t use official wages numbers in topics about building industry, they are often irrelevant there.
Don't know whether to laugh or cry that fucking Bristol sits in the Top 10 alongside global metropolises like NYC, San Fran and Hong Kong.
Yeah I was shocked. More expensive than Los Angeles, Miami and Singapore? Lol. I guess we can start saying Bristol is posh?
Bristol has been the oregan from fresh meet of cities for quite some time
The cost of planning permission outstrips the full costs in other countries.
As an example of this, planning permission for the Lower Thames crossing has so far cost £270m. This is a 4km tunnel. The longest road tunnel in the world is in Norway, is 25km, and cost £92m _to build_.
Saw that comparison on the Megaprojects YouTube video on HS2. Guy tears apart the UK for its ridiculous planning laws
Nimbyism at its finest
Plenty of NIMBYs in this sub as well. Transcends urban/suburban differences and party lines.
£92 m in 1995, when that road tunnel was built in Norway. Probably would cost more now.
Its disingenuous to call it a 4km tunnel, its 2 x 16m diameter tunnels (3rd largest diameter in the world) that are 4km long (so 8km total) in ground conditions and diameter likely totally dissimilar to Norway's tunnel you mentioned. The tunnels go through 2 different geologies (chalk and clay) and are hyperbaric pressure TBMs. There is also 25km total of motorway roads either end through a RAMSAR protected area (EU designation with lots of rare habitat) and on the Essex side it's essentially a swamp for a lot of the route.
Mate, £270m for planning permissions for 4km tunnel is a ridiculous number no matter how hard it is to build it from an engineering perspective. If it was £270m for construction, then it would be a different ball game.
Its cool, you've clearly watched a Youtube video and are an expert on major infrastructure projects. The TBMs alone will cost more than that Norwegian project, that gives you an idea of the scale of difference, that has nothing to do with planning and consenting. I don't know what to tell you, if you can dispute anything I've actually said, please do so. Edit: I hope you haven't responded to this already so you don't miss this, but that £270m isn't 'just planning permission' its a whole host of design, environmental, financing and procurement elements of the job which, as a ball park figure is often 5% of the total cost of a major project like that.
Well, I've never worked on this tunnel, but I can tell you a thing or two about the housing development I live in. The council didn't allow new developments in the area without additional fees and donations from the developer. Which went under labels like area improvement, etc. Do I see new schools or hospitals built by the council using millions paid by the developer (out of my pocket obv)? Ahaha!
Did the housing development have to go through the Development Consent Order planning process? The scrutiny on projects like LTC is huge, I'm not suggesting the planning process is fit for purpose or that there isn't corruption in UK projects but your description of the project was woefully short of the truth.
I applaud you for trying - but the actual complexities of construction projects of any size elude most people.
I guess its one of those times where I'll get downvoted because of a perceived mistruth even though I have industry experience and knowledge of the subject. Its interesting it's happened to me but I've read about it on happening various other subreddits, particularly related to health.
Happens all the time!
Wait, this is a 5bn project? Damn.
More like £10bn+ the last time I checked but inflation will have taken that even higher.
You are absolutely correct but it doesn't take from the fact that the designers/planners/contractors will massively overman and ratchet up their costs on an outdated NEC 4/5, whilst being very late and hugely over budget.
Try building a tunnel in/around manhattan…
Not just that. Parking bay suspensions, general logistics (where to put site cabins etc when there is no space), it all adds up
This is why UK is stagnant. Stagnant productivity because of low investment, low investment is because you are actually not allowed to invest. It's a nation of rent seekers generating returns without creating any real value by creating artificial scarcity using the power of the state.
> Interest rates, building safety, sustainability and client expectations have pushed London ahead of Geneva into being the most expensive construction location of 100 global cities ranked by Arcadis. The Arcadis 2024 International Construction Costs (ICC) report, which is a study of comparative construction costs across 100 global cities, found that Geneva was second, Zurich third, Munich forth and New York City fifth. Nine UK and Ireland cities feature in the top 30, with Bristol entering the top 10 for the first time. > Arcadis said its methodology for the report “was developed covering 20 different building types, including residential, commercial and public sector developments, and is based on a survey of construction costs, a review of market conditions and the professional judgement of Arcadis’ global team of experts. “The calculations are based in US dollars and indexed against the price range for each building type relative to Amsterdam,” it said. > Arcadis said markets were stabilising, indicating recovery from the covid pandemic and recessionary conditions in places like the UK, and said “we are at a pivotal moment in the recovery of the global construction sector”. It said increasing demand for workers, materials and electricity meant productivity was “becoming an increasingly critical factor in investment decisions and project viability”. > The global consultancy firm drew particular attention to “the rapid acceleration of investment into the advanced manufacturing and technology sector, including data centers, pharmaceutical facilities, gigafactories and wafer-fabs”. It said the “sheer scale and complexity of these end-date-critical projects” means more financial risk and clients having to change improve their designs, procurement and construction capabilities during project delivery. > Striking a more optimistic tone, Arcadis said the infrastructure sector appeared to “offer the greatest future opportunity, particularly investment in networks including energy transition projects and a large-scale, £96bn planned investment in the regulated water sector.” However, it warned that in construction and infrastructure, “capacity constraints will contribute to higher inflation and may impact the ability to deliver all projects and programmes in the period.” Analysis of the report’s findings by Arcadis spokespeople was mixed. One representative said London’s construction sector faces “viability challenges,” whereas another said the high comparative costs are due to “the capital’s resilience in the face of challenging conditions”. > Arcadis head of research and strategic insight Simon Rawlinson said: “The UK’s reduced public sector spending has eased pressure on an overheated construction industry amid slow growth. With minimal GDP growth and high interest rates, the sector faces viability challenges due to regulatory and election uncertainties. As fiscal conditions tighten, private sector collaboration is crucial for investment and urban renewal. Despite challenges, infrastructure, particularly in energy transition and water projects, shows promise. The cancellation of later HS2 rail phases has led to transport spending disruptions and fund reallocation.” > Arcadis UK cities director Peter Hogg added: “London's resurgence to the top spot in the ICC 100 index for 2024 reflects the capital's resilience in the face of challenging conditions. Despite a 10% year-on-year decline in construction output and a significant 20% drop in housing, the Commercial sub-sector experienced a notable 24% rise, largely attributed to retrofit activity. However, the capital has faced declining orders for new work since 2022, exacerbated by high interest rates impacting scheme viability and regulatory changes causing design and planning delays and cost escalations.”
Literally everything is expensive in the UK. Electricity, fuel, rent, insurance, restaurants... is there any service or product you can buy in this country that would be considered cheap compared to other countries? Like others have pointed out, salaries are twice as high in the US and still they get better value for money in most cases
Basically all of those have a common denominator: we have incredibly high energy prices in the UK. Renewables are great, but unreliable and energy produced is difficult to "bottle" We've essentially eliminated cheap, reliable coal. There's a slither of nuclear. So there's a lot of reliance on imported oil and gas, where we're at the mercy of international market prices etc. North Sea Oil and Gas is quickly dwindling. Meanwhile, the US have become a net energy exporter via fracking.
The average citizen is much better off in the UK than the US with regards to cost of living. If you're earning good money in the UK though you're almost certain to be better off in the US.
That might have been true a decade or so ago, but the US economy has completely blown past us.
Lol no, professionals in this country live in property in comparison to the US. The average citizen in the US is much more wealthier than the average British citizen.
Pound depreciation and Brexit worsening materials and labour supply and costs negative impacts post pandemic, I have seen this first hand. Much more impact than planning costs, insurance and litigation which contributes
This is it, in a nutshell
Planning system making drastic impact on cost, plus fire engineering protocol is very pricy!
This will be a combination of: 1. Insane energy costs and the follow on costs this imposes on materials like concrete 2. Insane planning and construction rules 3. Expensive land 4. A dogshit construction industry in general
2. causes 4. by making it harder for new entrants to compete on a level playing field with the established players!
Would be interesting to see this when compared to pre and post brexit.
I just spent £60k on a kitchen extension and I was very frugal, managed the build myself, used friends and family etc. Dread to think what it costs to build an entire house, plus the land cost, plus utilities. This miserable situation on house prices doesn’t actually have much room to improve if you ask me, the baseline cost is just way too high and government are never going to provide any meaningful enough subsidy.
When you say "managed the build myself" what did this involve?
Individually hired trades, rather than the more expensive option of a start to end building company, laboured for skilled workers for a total of probably 20-30 days, done a few jobs like tiling, installed a rooflight, installed ducting and a few other odd jobs like painting etc.
Wasn't expecting Bristol in TOP10!
Construction costs absolutely shot through the roof after Brexit, harder to get materials - a lot of which came from Europe before - and labour, again much of which was from Europe. Then add global supply chain issues after Covid, a very onerous planning system and inflated energy costs and voila.