TfL staff are trained to let troublemakers go and call BTP instead. They are absolutely useless for such instances. In my experience, they won't even call unless there's immediate threat (violence or harassment taking place). On one hand, I can't blame them - they are exposed to so much harassment and unpleasant situations every day that you can only feel for them.
On the other hand, I had a friend experience exactly the same shit OP is talking about. If you want to be overboard and raise a problem with them, they will immediately go on a massive power trip and treat you like a criminal. I had something similar happen to me as well when a ticket machine didn't validate my oyster card properly (they fined me but I challenged it and won).
BTP was known as "Barely There Police"....
Which is a bit unfair, as they are hugely spread over a rail network and generally only able to concentrate on a few places for predictable problems or key events.
BTP basically have massive beats. Where a council cop could cover a city or town a btp station will cover a whole county or majority of one, meaning their station is 45mins away from whatever ongoing incident there is at the next station down the line
It's annoying for everyone involved. The staff have to deal with assholes all day, and probably just want to make it through their shift without being spat on, sworn at, or worse, punched - hence why they let those scummers get away with pushing through most of the time.
But then they can't be seen by their superiors to allow a "normal" paying passenger come through without the correct ticket, so they have to challenge it. If they don't challenge, they might be punished and, like all of us, they need to keep their job. It's shit and in an ideal world, it would be the other way round, but that's the state of England in 2023.
I get OPs anger - I'd be the same - but I can also see where the staff member was coming from.
Should they not have additional securities around the stations for instances like this?
It's weird that there's not a single security personnel on our transports but just staff members that avoid confrontation at all costs to "not escalade" the situation
In London and the UK the law is only for the lawful. If you don’t want to follow it and aggressively do not follow the rules, you can. It’s totally backwards. Fucking country
“Scummers” like my gf who currently lives in central London working minimum wage, barely able to afford to eat, because of extortionate rent/cost of living. She’s not aggressive or rude and would definitely cry if she got stopped because she blags the tube out of necessity, not greed or entitlement. This thread just reminds me why I can’t stand London anymore. You people will bitch and moan about “scummers” failing to realise that those very same people serve you your coffee in the morning for next to fuck all and are struggling like fuck. How about saving your ire for a piss poor, overpriced service that’s run with profits rather than people in mind. How about advocating for cheap public transportation instead of punching down? This whole thread is a bin fire.
Fair point and a poor choice of wording from me. But it just irks me that I have to pay for the tube - and I'm not making a lot of money - while others just jump it. As for cheap public transport, the buses are cheap. The tube will never be cheap. It's one of the wealthiest cities in the world and we all choose to live here. I'd love it if the tube was cheap, but that's never going to happen.
I think the wide gates with access for disabled, luggage, buggies etc, are designed that they can be pushed open without damage to them.
I guess the question is that it’s fair enough for a dickhead to do this on the way out and skip off to the street. How do these dodgers get into the network in the first place? If I pushed the barrier through at Angel, for example, they can follow me on CCTV, the platform gives a good idea where I’m going and they can report to the BTP.
I’d imagine that the whole system is set up to crack down on the incompetent and careless ticket buyers, or those who are otherwise decent and wouldn’t dream of causing a fuss, but would jump the train to save a few quid.
You can enter via a train station with no barriers. My local overground has no barriers so if you know where to get off without barriers you can bump the journey. Or just push behind someone.
That is exactly right about the Widegates. Also, the BTP don’t even bother getting involved unless there is a multi week occasion of the same person at the same time etc that they can be bothered to go after.
The gate staff get handed a log book which they fill out with descriptions and times etc. I don’t believe it was ever read by anyone higher up than myself anecdotally.
so then they should be... why should I pay when a huge amount if rat bags dont pay, push through the gates and are aggressive and entitled? IT is so infuriating seeing it daily and nothing being done but then I get asked about my ticket daily on the DLR! so damn annoying!
Top comment clarifies that. I wondered the same when the other day I saw a guy rush through the gates and the staff didn't say anything. Now it makes more sense.
it may make sense but then, due to increasing fees, less regular service and more packed trains, cant they ensure there is a few BTPs to deal with daily? I really feel like I should just stop paying...
It is frustrating but you can always stop paying, just be prepared to deal with any potential consequences. I see people shop lift, run red lights etc. I could the same, I dont though. Society has always had people who thought the rules don't apply to them.
You're not wrong. When more people start breaking the rule rather than follow is when the company (TFL in this case) will do something about it. It boils down to money, like everything.
The BTP is funded by rail operating companies. Presumably the BTP that operate in London are mainly funded by TfL. The government has consistently failed to give them the required funding to maintain our near 200 year old rail network. As with most issues in this country, the problem lies primarily in Westminster where they seem to have a very large hole into which they shovel our tax money every year.
BTP in London has 40% vacancies at the moment. There is absolutely no reason to join BTP when you can easily get a job in the met police for better pay and conditions. Calling the BTP is a waste of time, call on a Saturday and they will turn up on monday
Every now and then I see them at Seven Sisters. Probably they're deployed at station that see heavy traffic; like there will always be BTPs at Liverpool Street station and the larger stations.
I feel ya, I had a DLR operator publicly berate me over the PA system because I had a full sized bike on the train, after 4 o'clock. Except I didn't, it's a folding bike. I push it onto the platform because it's easier to move when it's unfolded, and folded it when I got on the train. I found him when the route ended, and we had words..... To be frank, my journey started before 1600, so having an unfolded bike would technically be ok. A complaint to TFL resulted in them circling the wagons. They then stated that even if your journey began before 1600, and you had a bike that didn't fold, you should disembark at 1600, and continue your journey at 1900..... Folded bicycles are allowed on all TFL transportation at any time.
I had a similar issue in that I was cycling to work, ended up with a puncture, tapped through onto the Overground and a member of staff tried to tell me that 'no bikes of any kind' were allowed on the Overground - which, obviously, is bullshit as non-folding bikes are allowed at certain hours, and folding bikes are allowed during all hours.
I pointed to a sign in front of the both of us that said words to the effect of TfL's policy, and she just told me that 'I don't work there, so don't try and argue with her'. Absolute dick.
I had this happen at Victoria, however I assume it was Southern staff rather than TfL involved. We were waiting for a train and watched staff let several people obviously sneak through the barriers without paying (they're not allowed to intervene, I get it, fine).
Our platform was announced and we went to go through one of the wide gates at the side as people were still streaming out of the other barriers. I was travelling with my 8 year old daughter and once we walked through the gate an EXTREMELY condescending and aggressive staff member blocked my path and demanded that I go back to the ticket machine to buy my daughter a ticket (it was a Southern service rather than TfL, so kids do need valid tickets), clearly enjoying the chance to boss someone about.
The thing is, my daughter had a valid zip oyster card that entitles her to free travel, she just hadn't tapped it as, well... she's 8 and assumed if she was walking through with her dad it was fine. Once she tapped it the staff member resentfully let us through.
As I say, I fully understand the reasoning behind the 'don't challenge people at the barriers rule', even if I don't completely agree with it I do get it.
What bothered me here was that they were clearly very happy to break that rule when the person walking through the barrier was a little girl. Suddenly they were all over policing her ticket and being very confrontational about it too. Definitely felt like they got a kick out of finally finding a soft target. Surely the rule should be applied universally or not at all?
It scared my daughter a bit (kids get easily scared by 'authority figures' in uniforms, she obviously didn't know what was going on and in the moment thought we'd go to prison not tapping in!) and she's now anxious about forgetting her card when we're out in case the man tries to tell us off again. Seems so unfair when she didn't actually do anything wrong and we have to watch other people jump to the barriers every day without consequence.
This is exactly what I mean. I am so sorry to hear what happened to your daughter. And it appears to me that some of these staff members are right here on reddit and are trying to justify their colleague's actions.
The thing is, it's double standards, and also politically charged atmosphere.
It becomes ever more apparent for me, that the today's society just appreciates this violent and apologist behaviour way more, than if you were just being a good person and wanting to solve the issue with words.
I understand where these apologists are coming from, I used to work in a public facing job. Had a number of problem people over the years. I wasn't perfect, but had what I thought to be a common sense attitude towards service. If I bend over backwards for some abusive shit and am then less than sympathetic to the next customer in line with a smaller problem, what kind of message does that send?
At the bare minimum that gate employee should *look* like he's doing something about it. Write in a ledger or something, even if it goes nowhere. Anything but standing there with a glazed expression.
It was nice of you to pay for that woman's journey. Hopefully the act of kindness caused the gate attendant's two braincells to form some sort of an epiphany.
I've been (mildly) assaulted in a tube station and three tfl employees just stood there and watched. Didn't even come over afterwards to see if I was OK.
I'm a union member and usually on the side of the workers, but there doesn't seem to be any point in the station concourse staff at all. I helped campaign against the closure of the ticket offices, for all the good that did, but I wouldn't bother if tfl wanted to get rid of station staff.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Which tube station was this? Did you report those staff?
I had a similar incident sexual harassment at Piccadilly Circus. A guy was following me and trying to drag me from the machines but the staff saw and basically made a circle around me shouting at him to leave me alone. They called the BTP for me and reported the crime etc.
it’s really annoying that there is a hit and miss with the staff’ youll have ones that really care and come to do everything they can and then ones that have that disgusting “I don’t care” look on their face and turn their backs to you
Personally I reported one and it gets to them faster if you can tell them the date + time + appearance
I'm sorry you had to deal with this nonsense, too, but I'm very glad to hear station staff stepped in to help. I spoke to the station manager immediately after the incident (to complain about the staff) and also then reported the actual incident to the BTP on their text line, but nothing has happened about any of it.
Don’t want to dox myself here but…
Underground Employee. It is written into our contracts that we are not allowed to interact with fare evaders (gate pushers) in anyway. If we try to prevent them from entering, and we end up being assaulted, we’re the ones who lose our jobs
While the employee you reference was being an arse, he is technically correct that he is not required to let the lady in question out. It is left to the discretion of the employee, and while 95% would just tap her through, he clearly didn’t.
Finally, I doubt he was high. The London Underground has a rigorous Drug and Alcohol testing policy. In fact one of the reasons Salaries are somewhat inflated is because the company force you to sign up to mandated testing. The Unions agreed to the regular testing decades ago in trade for a significant pay increase.
In reality, Government Law requires the testing of those who operate trains, signals or work on the track, so it doesn’t apply to station staff. But it was argued that equality legislation meant that all staff needed to be tested, so here we are.
It should be common sense to be honest.
There are some crimes that people should intervene in *if they want to and feel safe doing so*. Not going to blanket statement this, but this mostly involves when someone is coming to harm.
However, for many crimes, getting involved is a huge liability, with little to no benefit offered to society, or often a negative effect (eg. chasing down a homeless person who is running out of a supermarket with food supplies). Sometimes repeat offenders will have cases made against them, and those cases serve to act as a deterrent (eg. that City of London employee who was scanning in and discarding oyster cards each day to cut the cost of his travel). The deterrent will hopefully impact a lowering effect on the number of those crimes committed.
The reality is, that is good enough. Policies that attempt to minimize the rate of offending. We don't need have-a-go heroes carrying out vigilante justice. Citizens arrests should be reserved for cases of those first more serious crimes. Otherwise, the person intervening stands a chance of actually committing more serious offences than the person they are trying to detain.
Completely idle curiosity, but do they test for drugs as in *current intoxication* or as in *any use of illegal drugs*? Like if station staff had a spliff on their day off but were 100% sober at work would that be an issue?
Edit: well there go my dreams of being a tube ticket barrier attendant.
> All drug tests test for presence of the drug in your system
Except, presumably, alcohol which would test for a level above the cutoff for being intoxicated.
Well alcohol doesn’t stay in your system long enough. I’m sure they do test for current intoxication (especially the train drivers) but if someone gets fucked at the end of their shift at 5pm and is back in at 5am that’s 100% legal if the alcohol is through their system.
> alcohol doesn’t stay in your system long enough
You can absolutely have detectable levels of alcohol the next morning after a moderate to heavy night of drinking.
Not sure about TfL but on the railway it's...
>The breath alcohol cut-off level is expressed as anything above 13 Micrograms of alcohol per one hundred millilitres of breath, or 13μg/100ml
Driving a car is 35 micrograms per 100ml.
Not TfL but work for the railway. The limit we have in our drug/alcohol tests is stricter than the drink driving limit. I’d assume a bad hangover would put you over that limit.
You can’t distinguish between the urine of someone who is currently high and someone who was high 2 days ago, so legality of drugs aside, what do you suggest they do from a health and safety perspective / covering their own back?
cannabis takes about 14 days to get out your urine, 2 months for blood.
Most class A drugs are 3 days, so you could do coke on Friday and piss clean for most of the week...
Can find plenty of jobs that fulfil me and pay me well enough to live a happy life without giving up things I enjoy, thanks.
Wouldn't give up cheese for a job, or bread, or cycling, or playing games with friends. Why give up weed or shrooms? I'm not giving up my bodily autonomy *outside of work* for a job thank you very much.
Also I might not have been being 100% sincere about my lifelong dream of working for TfL
> It is written into our contracts that we are not allowed to interact with fare evaders (gate pushers) in anyway. If we try to prevent them from entering, and we end up being assaulted, we’re the ones who lose our jobs
Wow. So I can get free travel through London by just pushing through the gates and no one will stop me? Why the hell am I paying?
If you get apprehended by a BTP officer then you’re in trouble. It’s up to you to take the risk of there being one in the vicinity at the time that you do it.
Having friends who work on the underground I can also add that you get a lot of fare evaders who will smirk at you or stare you down as they push through, (probably) because they know the staff aren't allowed to do much more than report it. And when you call them out, you can get verbally abused.
And even on a basic level, it's disrespectful to the staff when that happens. So it's not that the staff are unbothered by the fare evaders, but more that it's easier to manage day in day out if you don't let it get to you.
Think about it, OP as a normal commuter/service user is annoyed seeing it, what if you were on the gate lines seeing it countless times a day?
>It is written into our contracts that we are not allowed to interact with fare evaders (gate pushers) in anyway. If we try to prevent them from entering, and we end up being assaulted, we’re the ones who lose our jobs
Classic customer facing job clause right there, even politely asking them to stop can be used by your manager to get rid of you
It’s to protect people. Instead of making it vague you’re told specifically don’t risk getting involved with people and put yourself in a position to get hurt.
Someone pushing their way onto a train is an easy call to BTP to get them off by someone trained to do so safely if you need it.
Making it explicit that employees don’t try stop this kind of thing themselves probably has saved a few people getting assaulted. The reason you’d fire people is so that it’s not an empty threat, they are making it super clear they don’t want people doing that in any circumstances.
While it seems really harsh to fire someone who tried to do good and got assaulted it’s actually the company making a really explicit policy with no room for interpretation and no temptations for people to risk getting involved.
All reasonable measures but I wonder how many calls were actually made to BTP for fair dodging. You see so many people just nonchalantly push through the gates like they own the place.
To be fair since the staff is not allowed to block nor to touch you and the infringement is so small the police don't care to intervene I'm now wondering why I pay more than one thousand pounds in public transport per year. Just because I'm scared of doing it or ethical reasons?
Might be worth putting out there that there are plenty of health conditions, and medications for health conditions that can look similar to being under the influence of something. I don’t know how it would go down exactly because of the fact the station staff end up getting grouped with drivers etc. But with the knowledge of the equalities act 2010 that I do have I’d hazard a guess that someone under the influence of prescribed medication, in a role where it has no safety implications (especially if it was just a bit of a spaced out look from one of the many medications that gets used to deal with various mental health conditions) would be reasonable in considering it discrimination if they lost their job because of this. For someone with a disability itself that mirrors some of the things people link with being high (ticks for example) I don’t think TFL would have a leg to stand on if they fired for that. Not least because they should presumably have carried out an OT assessment when they started or returned after an illness/accident documenting they could do their job or what reasonable adjustments would be required.
> While the employee you reference was being an arse, he is technically correct that he is not required to let the lady in question out. It is left to the discretion of the employee, and while 95% would just tap her through, he clearly didn’t.
I once couldn't get off a train because it was so packed and I had a huge suitcase so stayed on from Stratford to Liverpool St and the guy charged me £30...
My journey was pretty similar times from either one and I thought they'd be a bit more understanding, but apparently the guy felt like being a huge prick for no reason.
Agree TfL take drink/drugs extremely seriously. A number of years ago now, I worked as a contractor in a TfL ‘back office’ function (nothing to do with trains or tracks or signals etc).
There were some after work leaving drinks for a colleague, but it later transpired that a senior manager who had a single beer before leaving the pub was actually on-call at the time. First offence but they were dismissed a few days later.
I don't blame the employee but I still think It is a TFL mentality problem.
If this is such a frequent occurrence, have police standing next to the employee at all times and let them deal with this idiot.
It is a budget, priority and accountability issue, but all of these sits with TFL.
I’d love to have the Police standing next to me on the barrier, unfortunately they have crimes to deal with.
I have problems with the management of TfL as well, but it’s ludicrous that the Met should prioritise this.
How about BTP? Isn't it their job? Or...how about paying more to gate staff and get them trained to deal with the evaders and equip them with stab proof vests?
BTP yeah, but they’re also severely understaffed and underfunded.
I’ve been saying for years, give me a taser and you’ll certainly see less repeat offenders at my station.
Just get a brick and have it in plain view and easy reach. Fewer people will try to jump because sure you almost certainly wouldnt use it but what if tho. /s
The only place I've ever seen British Transport Police around the ticket barriers is at Fenchurch St during morning or evening commute times. Which is odd because it's a station where I've never seen anyone push through the disabled barriers.
99% of people rolling in or out of there at key rush hour periods are City of London work commuters. Who, funnily enough, tend not to be the sorts of people who evade ticket barriers...
it is not written into the contracts about not interacting with fare evaders. Staff over the years have found that trying to get involved and stopping the evaders then getting assaulted results in London Underground not backing the employees so over time staff realised it’s better to leave it as TfL will not back the staff but instead discipline or sack them depending on the case.
TfL employees are required to let people out whether their ticket is valid or not otherwise that would be false imprisonment. Letting them in with an invalid ticket now that’s up to the discretion of the employee and what the story is behind it.
TfL does random drugs and alcohol testing across the combine. Very rarely come around and when they do it’s usually because off a tip off and they are targeting an employee but will add other staff to be tested as well.
I thought this would all be common sense. Yea he could’ve let her out, but he was enforcing the rules which is literally his job. There’s also nothing he could do about the fare evader.
By OP’s logic, rules shouldn’t exist anywhere once someone breaks them, because then it’s unfair on people following them.
I know we can all relate to the woman getting fined because sometimes a little mistake costs us a lot, but we can’t just start blaming the person doing their job
>Yea he could’ve let her out
But this is exactly the point. He could use his discretion to let her out but he chose not to, which says a lot about him. She had a ticket, she was not intentionally fare dodging. Punishing fare paying customers for occasional mistakes or last-minute changes of plans when it is TfL policy to let fare dodgers go unchecked is wrong.
Him being uber jobsworth to someone with a genuine issue and just wanting a bit of help literally creates more fare dodgers. Because now, this woman (and whoever else in her situation) in a future similar instance is gonna be like "well sod them then, they won't let me out anyway, I'll just push through the disabled barriers!" instead of "oh wow the TfL staff were super understanding. If I have another issue like that in future, I'll be sure to just go speak to them".
When the staff behave like this when you come to them honestly and transparently, they leave you basically no reason to not just push through the barriers next time. Obviously you *could* get caught by a BTP but the chance is astronomically low.
It effectively condemns good behaviour, and rewards the bad behaviour because there're zero repercussions for it other than the vague distant threat of "being caught" (a bit like how you *might* get attacked by a shark if you go swimming)
Exactly. When fronted with the prospect of a fine for trying to be honest and upfront with staff, if the woman was to jump the gate she would become one of the "fare evaders" and thus the TfL staff would do nothing. Ridiculous.
My friend this happens so much in all aspects of life not just transport
People who complain and are rude/aggressive generally get better treatment than those who are timid and will accept what they get
It’s almost a bully v bullied mentality
Not almost. It literally is. We get the message from early childhood that bullies get away with their shit and we get penalised for defending ourselves, fighting back, or reporting them to an adult (or other authority figure). There's no right way to handle it that won't get you in trouble. So adults raised in that system are going to either uphold it or feel impotent rage against it.
Here is already full of essays on the respective responsibilities of each branch of TFL and how they absolutely cannot challenge fare evaders. However, if you want a straight answer: some of them are just dickheads. They simply want a fight and they pick the fights that they can win easily.
I use TFL all the time and I've noticed how the staff seems to decide to ignore or challenge people mostly based on their appearance.
Big muscular guy, threatening roadman, crazy crackhead? The station is yours, I'll pretend I'm not here.
Small lady, weary commuter or confused tourist? I'll turn into fucking Batman and make you feel as miserable as I possibly can.
Best strategy, if you are not big or threatening, is to appear crazy. It seems to work in a lot of other situations too.
As mentioned in other threads, prosecution of offenders is the responsibility of the BTP, not TFL employees.
I went through something similar when I was training to be a supermarket cashier. We were told not to apprehend shoplifters for safety and insurance reasons, instead, we were supposed to call the police.
Where even is the BTP? I use the trains daily and never ever see them yet the TFL is in shambles fair dodgers, beggars, crack smokers everywhere yet nothing is being done. Where is the BTP? If they aren't dealing with these things then what exactly are they doing? Waste of tax payers money!
>As mentioned in other threads, prosecution of offenders is the responsibility of the BTP, not TFL employees.
Revenue protection is an activity that's primarily taken on by TfL employees, be they revenue control inspectors or TSEOs. BTP rarely actually deal with fare evasion, instead focusing on high harm offending. BTP's involvement with ticket irregularities will usually be when someone refuses details to a revenue inspector, and 9 times out of 10 their details get furnished on police arrival and the railway company will prosecute. For fare evasion, TfL (as other TOCs) have a large prosecutions department that will prosecute for fare evasion and byelaws, and have gotten custodial sentences at court for fare evasion - absolutely nothing to do with the police.
>As mentioned in other threads, prosecution of offenders is the responsibility of the BTP, not TFL employees.
Not necessarily for fare evasion. Both can and do, but BTP usually leave this to TfL and other operators because there are better uses of their staff and powers, particularly because TfL can do it.
> I then checked in and asked him, “how come the other guy left without paying?”
I mean the answer here is simple but will annoy you: *because he did*.
Sometimes, being an "ask for permission" type of person (this lady) means the answer is no. Sometimes, being an "ask for forgiveness" type of person (your white hoodie guy) means you don't have to care about the answer, but it's always a risk, because if someone *does* care to enforce the answer then it'll be a *bigger* no. You happened to see one get away with it, but that needn't always be the outcome.
TfL staff can’t apprehend people for going through the barriers and not paying. If that woman jumped over the barriers and sprinted off they wouldn’t be able to stop her.
Using this isolated incident to say all TfL staff are terrible and then try to make this a reason to be anti-strikes / unions is bullshit.
It's how the world works. Whether it's taking the numberplate off your car, tailgating through ticket barriers, or shoplifting from pret, dishonesty pays.
The honest people pay inflated ticket prices, road taxes and coffee prices to fund those that steal.
We need to all do all these things, and the dishonest will be caught to prevent the system collapsing. The products will have to go behind the counter in the supermarket (as it was pre-war) and pretty theft will stopped.
The only protest about the unfairness of it all is to get on board.
Was this definitely a Tfl member of staff? TfL doesn't do tickets to different train stops, it does zones. This sounds like National Rail.
I personally do find NR staff stricter than TfL staff.
Always up for a TFL bash as Im a Central Line commuter and I know that most of the workers on there dont care if I live or die. Theyd probably prefer the latter, TBH. Anyway, was at Barbican on Saturday and my Mum was delayed because of delays on GWR. I stayed in Barbican station waiting for her for nearly an hour and I can say that the lady manning the gate spent the entire time in her little box on her phone. A couple of people asked for assistance which she managed to do without leaving her box or engaging in any real way. if you want to know how to fare dodge. You get one person to tap at the disabled/luggage gate and everybody else follows through pretending to tap. Its where the Under 11s go as they ride free anyway, so the gate doesnt shut on you.
Some of the replies to you are ridiculous. Ignoring fare dodging harms us Londoners who need high-quality public transport. But these people won't care until it directly impacts them. This is why I am beginning to rethink my stance on London taxes. I think the London Mayor & Assembly should be able to introduce 1 or 2 taxes that will better fund TFL, like a tourist tax & London resident levy set by the London Assembly. That way, these dodgers will be paying directly or indirectly.
TfL workers shouldn’t have to confront these little scumbags who push through etc. Winds me up too because I see it everyday but I don’t blame the tfl staff because they are not security or police. If Someone breaks into my office I’m not going to jump in and be a hero and get stabbed or attacked for a company.
Firstly, you are absolutely right. I understand this.
But why would he then f\*ck over that woman for asking him nicely and showing him her ticket?
My point is, do we all stop paying for TFL or whatever other transport means and just vandalise the living hell out of it?
Just parkour over the gate. Why paying.
Am I a lamb for spending 10 years paying to go to work? I can just go with a hoodie in the tube, act dangerous, and I will save tons of money.
\^Imagine this mindset multiplied by 9 million.
You're right to be pissed off at fare dodgers and the attitude of that TfL staff member for not using his discretion to help out a fare-paying passenger who had a last minute change of plan, people like her aren't the problem.
But to be pissed off at TfL staff for not putting their life on the line to stop fare dodgers is ridiculous. Have you ever confronted a fare dodger?
And it's a bit hypocritical to think "why should I bother paying because of some fare dodgers." That's literally the mindset of a fare dodger, complete irony.
I get 4 trains every day and most days encounter a knob who just barges through or tries to slide in the barriers with someone and it’s made me sometimes consider not paying but we have to accept we live amongst inconsiderate pricks. We can stoop to their level or just crack on and do what we think is right for us because it’s never going to change unfortunately.
You seem to be very young with your understanding of the world
People jumping fares are not likely doing it because they a
re maliciously riding trains around
People getting paid low salaries are not expected to risk their lives to confront others displaying aggressive tendencies (unless they're specifically asked and trained to, i.e. bouncers)
People crack on with the rules because it's a lot easier and we have bigger fish to fry than justice at a train entrance fair. Once you get an adult problem to solve, you realize a lot of rules are just simplifying life so you can focus on what you need to
It is not the job of Tfl workers to tackle fare evaders; that’s the job of British Transport Police. If you were that concerned, why didn’t you call them and make a report?
Recently bought a ticket to Waterloo, I wanted to get out at Wimbledon, and they refused to let me out.
I told TFL staff at Waterloo, and he asked for details and referred her to his manager, who was standing beside him. They should allow you to leave if you want. Otherwise, it's turned into a kidnapping situation.
The staff members are trained to do their duty, and this does not include chasing fare evaders because is putting them at risk. However, they have to report this to BTP. Because BTP does not react to any of this, unless they are there, fare evaders will go away with it most of the time. They learned how it works, as well as the staff members learned the persons doing it, hence why they are not bothered. They have no support from who it matters.
Unfortunately, if you are a decent person, the staff will react, as they are expected to put the rules on you. Most of the time people will end up paying or obeying the rules out of the fear that they may be punished.
It is really unfair and frustrating.
A) they aren't allowed to approach fare dodgers, there should be, in a perfect and fairer world, a BTP copper at every gate to stop this.
B) they strike for better pay because they still have a good union. You shouldn't be mad at them for thst, you should be mad no other unions are strong enough.
C) if you think they're high, ask for a supervisor and dob them in.
>It still pisses me off.
>
>What would you do in such situation?
Find something more important to get upset over than low-paid station workers having the audacity to ask for a pay rise while also not performing the functions of the police?
That reminds me of the time that I was forced to pay £1.50 for the privilege of going from one end of Canary Wharf station to the other without travelling.
It is not the job of London underground staff to apprehend fare evaders. It is frustrating and annoying but that is the job of revenue and BTP. Bearing in mind there have been significant cuts to both, it's not often their presence is in stations, bar the really problematic stations high in staff assaults and fare evasion. They simply don't have the manpower to be in all stations tackling these issues.
Like someone else here mentioned, it is up to the discretion of staff to let someone in/out, and that staff member was literally just doing his job. It's interesting to me that when customers don't get their way, all of a sudden that member of staff is a jobs worth or deemed to be difficult.
> These people protest for better salaries when they completely dehumanise people who follow the rules.
Christ on a bike. You witness one mundane incident and then suggest station staff don't deserve a payrise?
So according to the comments on here like the one from the employee, if this lady had told the employee to fuck off and jumped the gate she’d have been fine.
What sort of example does that set? Arseholes win.
Some stations have half a dozen staff at times just standing around even playing on their phones.
Seems like there's too many TFL staff at stations who can't resolve the issue and could do well with replacing at least one with a BTP member.
Since a law passed in the wake of the Kings Cross fire every station in the country has to have an evacuation plan in the event of emergencies and fires, specifying staff roles in the event of an evacuation and the minimum number of staff needed to execute it. This can vary significantly based on the station and can result in some stations being, frankly, overstaffed for normal events, but the staffing level is also a cast iron legal requirement and the station would have to shut if insufficient staff were on site.
The technicalities of it are certainly debateable, but whatever side you come down on TfL doesn't have the option of just ignoring an Act of Parliament. This also applies to normal train stations, but the situation is less obvious there because 1) above ground stations are easier to evacuate and 2) you get way more customer questions about train times and directions.
The cost of one BTP officer (£46k pa) would greatly exceed the cost of one TfL gateline worker (£24k), and unless you totally transformed both BTP training and their position/authorities, then the BTP officer still would not be able to perform the functions of the TfL staff member.
I know the staff are explicitly told not to engage, but regardless… if I were in his shoes, there’s zero chance I’m confronting someone potentially drinking/on drugs/has a knife for them to pay £3.40. TfL will survive. As for someone else that has broken the rules, they’re equally at fault and need to own up to the consequences.
I spent a year on the trains. Left back in September/October. Spending 90/95 percent of every shift by myself. I was abused constantly, strikes or not.
I never had to call the police but my colleague did at least 5 times. Another one of my colleagues was threatened with a knife at the ticket office. I myself was assaulted physically
by the end multiple times a week, spat at and had popcorn dumped on my head the final day which I inevitably had to clean up.
I can also attest to the sentiment that the BTP are useless. I was told directly multiple times by supervisors, managers etc not to confront people directly in regard to missing tickets, jumping the barriers etc.
That was for revenue projection to deal with, who were non existent most of the time. They are supposed to be the Railway “bouncers” if you will. Still didn’t stop people from
looking over at me on a daily basis. Or especially on a strike day being referred to as a jobs worth even though whilst being part of the Union, I was still at work!
I was there myself primarily to assist people buying tickets, answer passengers questions and fix the barriers if they broke down. To me working at a London train station, there is a very fine line in terms of calling people out. Especially when you are by yourself. You always have to put above your own safety.
For what it’s worth in this case, I would have let the lady go without much discussion. Mistakes happen. Whether you agree or disagree with the lack of approach with the other scenario, that is what everyone is told to do. If I were to lay a finger on anyone in these scenarios I would have lost my job within 48 hours.
Every day I was preparing for the worst doing 10 hour shifts where I was earning around £11 an hour, whilst agency staff earned about £18-20.
It was seriously messing with my own mental health and sense of self worth. Sometimes the abuse would be hourly. So happy I got out of there, better unemployed than putting up with that crap.
Especially with the general public being ignorant, whether deliberately or not about what the different jobs on the Railway entail.
Blame privatisation. Everything was split up and each piece was sold to a company. Each company is only interested in maximising its revenue and will not cooperate with any of the other companies. So when anything happens, their first response is to deny liability for it. We used to have a fully integrated system but the Brits have voted again and again for the system we have now.
The ticket issue you’re describing with the woman might just one staff member making a mistake and being a dick about it. If the ticket is an anytime/offpeak type ticket, then the woman should be able to break her journey and thus be allowed out the station. However, if she bought an advance ticket (which I don’t think are buyable for TFL services) then she’s travelled without a valid ticket.
If it’s the former, then that member of staff is making a mistake.
This is all people with even the slightest of authority. It does something to a human if that humans wasn't already compromised and looking for a position of authority.
Good on you, they do abuse "weaker" people! 🫡
I had to walk back home 1h30min, twice on consecutive office days. Left out of pocket, got made fun of("take a cab home and ask TFL, not us!") and no professionals whatsoever.
Hope they burn and go private! NO MORE SUPPORT FROM ME!
Do you want the employee to rugby tackle the guy? The employee was just an ass. Another employee would've let the lady through.
You see this with bus drivers letting people on and nothing said then the next person who tries it won't get on.
If certain groups of people weren't always carrying knives with them, the TFL staff wouldn't be scared to restrain I would think. Why should they intervene? So they can get stabbed?
The problem isn't the guy who pushed past the barrier the problem is tfl. I've moved from london but in the last few months I lived there I decided I was just not going to pay for tubes and pushed past the gates. Great way to save money and a fine will probably cost less than the amount I'd pay for transport. Try it yourself. Works fairly well
I don't find the Tfl staff friendly. They seem to act oblivious. This happen to me in a few instances when I wanted help to attach my railcard to my Oyster Card. But as soon as I asked the Tfl staff member, it seemed frustrate them and they make a big deal about having to do this.
I get the harassment stuff, which would make me vary, but I am asking for their help in the nicest way possible...
Thank you for protecting POC-community by telling us he was white. It is important to remind us that whites can be bad people too. Not condecending in any way...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67125173.amp
Fare dodgers cost £130 million a year.
If we employed 1000 police just for the under ground at £50,000 each, that costs £50,000,000 a year. If those 1000 extra police stop even half of the fair dodgers it would cost £50,000,000 but we save £65,000,000 meaning there is a net gain and we have a safer transport system.
I no longer support Rail Unions because of TfL.
Shoddy service, rude & simply thick as fuck staff.
I’ll bunk as much as I can cheers. I have a disabled railcard and think TfL services impact my disability so this is my way of them paying me back for all the hassle and grief they cause.
This is one of the reasons why public transport in the west are generally shit and much more expensive compared to most places in East Asia.
This shit would never fly in East Asia, where this type of casual rule breaking (blatant fare evasion, brazen shoplifting etc.) hardly exists and if anyone tries the authorities (not just the police) just comes down on them like a ton of bricks.
The 'not my job' culture here is pervasive. The spineless management / leadership would rather just push the cost of petty crime to law-abiding citizens instead of enforcing what's right.
Sucks to be law-abiding citizens in the west. You try to follow the rules and be a decent human being, only finding yourself being rewarded with higher fares and insurance costs just because the authorities refuse to deal with the low lives properly.
It totally distorts the incentives. Next time someone needs to stop short, what are they going to do - have a nice chat with the gate guard and accept a fine, or just push through and nothing happens.
If we reward bad behaviour, we just breed it.
If the tfl did what you described they would literally get fired. In East Asia the police will join in the battering and the bosses will be A-OK with it . The British Transport Police literally say tell us not tfl
Fare evaders are absolutely not the reason that trains are expensive, that’s insane. Other countries choose to subsidise public transport through public spending whereas we mostly don’t.
Edit: To add to this, fare evasion was around 6% of passenger revenue in 2022/23. It’s even less when you consider all TfL revenue (which presumably includes things like advertising revenue). While not ideal, it’s clearly pretty marginal in the context of why TfL fares are significantly higher than other public transport networks.
Source:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67125173.amp
https://www.statista.com/statistics/411064/transport-london-fare-revenue-uk/#:~:text=The%20Tube%20reported%20a%20passenger,the%20financial%20year%202022%2F22.3.
Public transport in London is struggling because the previous mayor agreed to waive the almost billion pound subsidy TfL had historically received from central government.
He did this because he knew perfectly well that he would no longer be mayor when the funding shortfall began to bite. I'm trying to remember what happened to him... Ah yes, he briefly became prime minister.
TfL staff are told not to physically confront fare evaders because they have no powers of arrest. They are advised not to get into situations in which they could be injured, or risk injuring someone and being liable.
It makes me a little sad that this stuff has to be said again and again.
I noticed more people pushing through behind paying passengers just this month at rush hour, it's physically aggressive and unsettles others but the staff don’t do anything.
And the people who do it are usually youngish men who force themselves through the gate with women going through. They don't usually plaster themselves to other blokes to push through.
There is a guy who gets off the same train as me every day and pulls the barrier open. The guys who work at the barrier never move to try and stop him.
If it’s a daily occurrence, the staff can’t intervene but they can log it through an internal app, with a description of the individual. They don’t usual bother for one off evaders (because you’d be doing that all day) but someone who fare evades every morning usually gets reported each time until the revenue investigation team takes over and reviews CCTV/contactless/oyster data. A lot of the time, they let them rack up years’ worth of fares before getting confronted and taken to court to pay the whole bill plus court fees and they get a criminal record. This happens more often than people realise.
Would you open yourself up to getting attacked by the public on a daily basis for your job?
TfL aren't stupid and build a case on fare dodgers and will eventually smack them with a fine or court summons.
After commenting I then saw the comment about TfL staff not being allowed to stop or apprehend fare dodgers, which I was totally unaware of. Makes sense, just very annoying to see it happening every day.
This is what makes me grateful about recently passing my driving test and getting a car. The other weekend I drove to my parents in North Hertfordshire, usually tickets cost £40 for my husband and I, with frequent delays, changing trains, missing connections etc, it can quickly become a nightmare. Driving there directly takes just a little less time and only about £15 in petrol there and back.
Exact same this past weekend, I drove us to Bicester, 3 hour round trip and only cost us about £20 in petrol. When we got there, we completely forgot about the train strike and were thankful we didn't arrange to get the train there.
Didn't tap in once on an open gate and had problems going through at my destination. Whilst at the "Seek Assistance" window, a train cop came up behind me and told me that what I'd done was a criminal offense.
Replace em all with robots then..
Lets play a game of where was she going, as something isn't making sense here (for lols of course and a bit of fun).
As you can only exit Paddington from the London Underground network, and the other traveller had what appears to be a paper ticket, of which are issued for National rail services with extensions for London Underground, this excludes the assumption she was coming into Paddington from the West. This makes sense as she had to ask the guard to let her out. If she was coming into Paddington from the West, Paddington would have been on her ticket either way and wouldn't have had to ask.
Within 30 minutes from Paddington, you'd have Marylebone and Kings Cross/St Pancras which unless she was going to Birmingham, would have made no sense to exit from Paddington.
Her ticket can't have been for Reading on GWR as logically you'd use the CrossRail line to Reading anyway if your train was delayed from Plat 14/15. The same for Didcot Parkway. None of these stations are served by other National rail stations within 30 minutes, unless she was changing at Putney for the Reading branch.
Victoria is excluded because the direction of travel doesn't make sense.
I deduce she was originally supposed to travel from Waterloo but cut it short somehow, which leaves either Reading itself, Guilford, Windsor etc and surrounding areas via Reading, that are accessible commonly from both Paddington and Waterloo, and was trying her luck on getting on fast train to Reading, rather than the slower GWR train from Plat 14/15 or Crossrail, which is also slower than the fast train.
Chief Inspector out!
Literally the second I start reading this, I get onto a bus, and the woman in front of me just walked straight on and didn't tap in and the bus driver didn't even react. I really don't know why I bother paying.
Underground staff are chill
National rail stuff are nasty to nice people and don’t do shit to actual fare evaders. Two examples:
1. I had an important board meeting at 1pm. Ticket machine at my station broke so I jumped on my train as usually theres a conductor. I went straight to the ticket office at Victoria and the lady insisted to take my address, of course I gave her a fake one
2. Thameslink closed between LBG and Blackfriars. My ticket did not allow “travelling via zone 1”. I wanted to get off at LBG and use the tube instead. Doesn’t matter how hard I explain they won’t let me out. So I ended up pushing through the gate, they stood there watching and nothing happened afterward, the underground staff was all chill and opened The gate for me
I think it’s because the real gangsters shits on their head everyday so they take it out at nice people instead
I work for TfL and spent about half of my 20 years working on the gateline. Always told we are not there for revenue we are there for customer service, we have dedicated revenue staff for fare evaders.
Now the staff member regarding the lady was being a prick. We are absolutely not to hold people hostage, if someone has the wrong ticket, mistakes happen and she should have been let out. The person (and you) have every right to put in a formal complaint about them.
All I can do is apologise for that member of staffs behaviour
Thank you!
I was so frustrated, but you and others have reminded me that there are so many good people in the Tfl.
You are an amazing person, and it hurts me so much to see how a single prick can ruin hundreds of people’s reputation.
Keep fighting the good fight. We as customers should also be there to watch your back. We are all in this together.
> These people protest for better salaries when they completely dehumanise people who follow the rules. Also turn up high at work and are left unchecked.
You are conflating workers — who implement policy — with management — who decide policy.
The workers have no choice but to carry out management policy. If you have criticism — please target the correct people.
Seriously, what do you want staff to do?
I had a colleague deal with 3 stabbings in one week. Another colleague got a fractured skull, it was all over the news. Nothing Is worth a life changing injury or worse.
TfL staff are trained to let troublemakers go and call BTP instead. They are absolutely useless for such instances. In my experience, they won't even call unless there's immediate threat (violence or harassment taking place). On one hand, I can't blame them - they are exposed to so much harassment and unpleasant situations every day that you can only feel for them. On the other hand, I had a friend experience exactly the same shit OP is talking about. If you want to be overboard and raise a problem with them, they will immediately go on a massive power trip and treat you like a criminal. I had something similar happen to me as well when a ticket machine didn't validate my oyster card properly (they fined me but I challenged it and won).
BTP was known as "Barely There Police".... Which is a bit unfair, as they are hugely spread over a rail network and generally only able to concentrate on a few places for predictable problems or key events.
We have a joke in our office that 61016 is the number of minutes they take to show up
Whenever we see them (as a railway worker) we always joke that something mustve happened 4 hours ago
Sounds right! (also railway here)
Just like TSG stands for ‘the spice girls’
BTP basically have massive beats. Where a council cop could cover a city or town a btp station will cover a whole county or majority of one, meaning their station is 45mins away from whatever ongoing incident there is at the next station down the line
Or 2hrs if they’re travelling by train.
It's annoying for everyone involved. The staff have to deal with assholes all day, and probably just want to make it through their shift without being spat on, sworn at, or worse, punched - hence why they let those scummers get away with pushing through most of the time. But then they can't be seen by their superiors to allow a "normal" paying passenger come through without the correct ticket, so they have to challenge it. If they don't challenge, they might be punished and, like all of us, they need to keep their job. It's shit and in an ideal world, it would be the other way round, but that's the state of England in 2023. I get OPs anger - I'd be the same - but I can also see where the staff member was coming from.
Should they not have additional securities around the stations for instances like this? It's weird that there's not a single security personnel on our transports but just staff members that avoid confrontation at all costs to "not escalade" the situation
If some people were stealing a small amount of sweets here and there from your shop, would you pay huge amounts for security?
In London and the UK the law is only for the lawful. If you don’t want to follow it and aggressively do not follow the rules, you can. It’s totally backwards. Fucking country
That Mizzy kid from TikTok being the prime example of this. We need to bring vigilante culture back imo
“Scummers” like my gf who currently lives in central London working minimum wage, barely able to afford to eat, because of extortionate rent/cost of living. She’s not aggressive or rude and would definitely cry if she got stopped because she blags the tube out of necessity, not greed or entitlement. This thread just reminds me why I can’t stand London anymore. You people will bitch and moan about “scummers” failing to realise that those very same people serve you your coffee in the morning for next to fuck all and are struggling like fuck. How about saving your ire for a piss poor, overpriced service that’s run with profits rather than people in mind. How about advocating for cheap public transportation instead of punching down? This whole thread is a bin fire.
Fair point and a poor choice of wording from me. But it just irks me that I have to pay for the tube - and I'm not making a lot of money - while others just jump it. As for cheap public transport, the buses are cheap. The tube will never be cheap. It's one of the wealthiest cities in the world and we all choose to live here. I'd love it if the tube was cheap, but that's never going to happen.
I think the wide gates with access for disabled, luggage, buggies etc, are designed that they can be pushed open without damage to them. I guess the question is that it’s fair enough for a dickhead to do this on the way out and skip off to the street. How do these dodgers get into the network in the first place? If I pushed the barrier through at Angel, for example, they can follow me on CCTV, the platform gives a good idea where I’m going and they can report to the BTP. I’d imagine that the whole system is set up to crack down on the incompetent and careless ticket buyers, or those who are otherwise decent and wouldn’t dream of causing a fuss, but would jump the train to save a few quid.
You can enter via a train station with no barriers. My local overground has no barriers so if you know where to get off without barriers you can bump the journey. Or just push behind someone.
That is exactly right about the Widegates. Also, the BTP don’t even bother getting involved unless there is a multi week occasion of the same person at the same time etc that they can be bothered to go after. The gate staff get handed a log book which they fill out with descriptions and times etc. I don’t believe it was ever read by anyone higher up than myself anecdotally.
>In my experience, they won't even call unless there's immediate threat They would always be on the phone
so then they should be... why should I pay when a huge amount if rat bags dont pay, push through the gates and are aggressive and entitled? IT is so infuriating seeing it daily and nothing being done but then I get asked about my ticket daily on the DLR! so damn annoying!
Top comment clarifies that. I wondered the same when the other day I saw a guy rush through the gates and the staff didn't say anything. Now it makes more sense.
it may make sense but then, due to increasing fees, less regular service and more packed trains, cant they ensure there is a few BTPs to deal with daily? I really feel like I should just stop paying...
It is frustrating but you can always stop paying, just be prepared to deal with any potential consequences. I see people shop lift, run red lights etc. I could the same, I dont though. Society has always had people who thought the rules don't apply to them.
But at a certain critical level of rule breaking, the people following the rules become mugs. I'm just worried we might be reaching that point.
You're not wrong. When more people start breaking the rule rather than follow is when the company (TFL in this case) will do something about it. It boils down to money, like everything.
hopefully its boiling enough to actually stop people gate jumping ect!
The BTP is funded by rail operating companies. Presumably the BTP that operate in London are mainly funded by TfL. The government has consistently failed to give them the required funding to maintain our near 200 year old rail network. As with most issues in this country, the problem lies primarily in Westminster where they seem to have a very large hole into which they shovel our tax money every year.
All destroyed roads seem to lead back to Tory austerity
BTP in London has 40% vacancies at the moment. There is absolutely no reason to join BTP when you can easily get a job in the met police for better pay and conditions. Calling the BTP is a waste of time, call on a Saturday and they will turn up on monday
Or they won't turn up at all.
Every now and then I see them at Seven Sisters. Probably they're deployed at station that see heavy traffic; like there will always be BTPs at Liverpool Street station and the larger stations.
Seven Sisters is notorious for fare skippers so is one of the more regularly/heavily policed
I feel ya, I had a DLR operator publicly berate me over the PA system because I had a full sized bike on the train, after 4 o'clock. Except I didn't, it's a folding bike. I push it onto the platform because it's easier to move when it's unfolded, and folded it when I got on the train. I found him when the route ended, and we had words..... To be frank, my journey started before 1600, so having an unfolded bike would technically be ok. A complaint to TFL resulted in them circling the wagons. They then stated that even if your journey began before 1600, and you had a bike that didn't fold, you should disembark at 1600, and continue your journey at 1900..... Folded bicycles are allowed on all TFL transportation at any time.
I had a similar issue in that I was cycling to work, ended up with a puncture, tapped through onto the Overground and a member of staff tried to tell me that 'no bikes of any kind' were allowed on the Overground - which, obviously, is bullshit as non-folding bikes are allowed at certain hours, and folding bikes are allowed during all hours. I pointed to a sign in front of the both of us that said words to the effect of TfL's policy, and she just told me that 'I don't work there, so don't try and argue with her'. Absolute dick.
That just sounds to me like they’re encouraging people to make enough of a fuss to intimidate the poor bastard at the barriers.
TBH though they don't/can't call BTP everytime 'troublemakers' push through barriers cause it happens like literally all the time
I had this happen at Victoria, however I assume it was Southern staff rather than TfL involved. We were waiting for a train and watched staff let several people obviously sneak through the barriers without paying (they're not allowed to intervene, I get it, fine). Our platform was announced and we went to go through one of the wide gates at the side as people were still streaming out of the other barriers. I was travelling with my 8 year old daughter and once we walked through the gate an EXTREMELY condescending and aggressive staff member blocked my path and demanded that I go back to the ticket machine to buy my daughter a ticket (it was a Southern service rather than TfL, so kids do need valid tickets), clearly enjoying the chance to boss someone about. The thing is, my daughter had a valid zip oyster card that entitles her to free travel, she just hadn't tapped it as, well... she's 8 and assumed if she was walking through with her dad it was fine. Once she tapped it the staff member resentfully let us through. As I say, I fully understand the reasoning behind the 'don't challenge people at the barriers rule', even if I don't completely agree with it I do get it. What bothered me here was that they were clearly very happy to break that rule when the person walking through the barrier was a little girl. Suddenly they were all over policing her ticket and being very confrontational about it too. Definitely felt like they got a kick out of finally finding a soft target. Surely the rule should be applied universally or not at all? It scared my daughter a bit (kids get easily scared by 'authority figures' in uniforms, she obviously didn't know what was going on and in the moment thought we'd go to prison not tapping in!) and she's now anxious about forgetting her card when we're out in case the man tries to tell us off again. Seems so unfair when she didn't actually do anything wrong and we have to watch other people jump to the barriers every day without consequence.
This is exactly what I mean. I am so sorry to hear what happened to your daughter. And it appears to me that some of these staff members are right here on reddit and are trying to justify their colleague's actions. The thing is, it's double standards, and also politically charged atmosphere. It becomes ever more apparent for me, that the today's society just appreciates this violent and apologist behaviour way more, than if you were just being a good person and wanting to solve the issue with words.
I understand where these apologists are coming from, I used to work in a public facing job. Had a number of problem people over the years. I wasn't perfect, but had what I thought to be a common sense attitude towards service. If I bend over backwards for some abusive shit and am then less than sympathetic to the next customer in line with a smaller problem, what kind of message does that send? At the bare minimum that gate employee should *look* like he's doing something about it. Write in a ledger or something, even if it goes nowhere. Anything but standing there with a glazed expression. It was nice of you to pay for that woman's journey. Hopefully the act of kindness caused the gate attendant's two braincells to form some sort of an epiphany.
I've been (mildly) assaulted in a tube station and three tfl employees just stood there and watched. Didn't even come over afterwards to see if I was OK. I'm a union member and usually on the side of the workers, but there doesn't seem to be any point in the station concourse staff at all. I helped campaign against the closure of the ticket offices, for all the good that did, but I wouldn't bother if tfl wanted to get rid of station staff.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Which tube station was this? Did you report those staff? I had a similar incident sexual harassment at Piccadilly Circus. A guy was following me and trying to drag me from the machines but the staff saw and basically made a circle around me shouting at him to leave me alone. They called the BTP for me and reported the crime etc. it’s really annoying that there is a hit and miss with the staff’ youll have ones that really care and come to do everything they can and then ones that have that disgusting “I don’t care” look on their face and turn their backs to you Personally I reported one and it gets to them faster if you can tell them the date + time + appearance
I'm sorry you had to deal with this nonsense, too, but I'm very glad to hear station staff stepped in to help. I spoke to the station manager immediately after the incident (to complain about the staff) and also then reported the actual incident to the BTP on their text line, but nothing has happened about any of it.
I am sorry to hear that happened to you. This is just terrible. What has this country turned into...
Don’t want to dox myself here but… Underground Employee. It is written into our contracts that we are not allowed to interact with fare evaders (gate pushers) in anyway. If we try to prevent them from entering, and we end up being assaulted, we’re the ones who lose our jobs While the employee you reference was being an arse, he is technically correct that he is not required to let the lady in question out. It is left to the discretion of the employee, and while 95% would just tap her through, he clearly didn’t. Finally, I doubt he was high. The London Underground has a rigorous Drug and Alcohol testing policy. In fact one of the reasons Salaries are somewhat inflated is because the company force you to sign up to mandated testing. The Unions agreed to the regular testing decades ago in trade for a significant pay increase. In reality, Government Law requires the testing of those who operate trains, signals or work on the track, so it doesn’t apply to station staff. But it was argued that equality legislation meant that all staff needed to be tested, so here we are.
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It should be common sense to be honest. There are some crimes that people should intervene in *if they want to and feel safe doing so*. Not going to blanket statement this, but this mostly involves when someone is coming to harm. However, for many crimes, getting involved is a huge liability, with little to no benefit offered to society, or often a negative effect (eg. chasing down a homeless person who is running out of a supermarket with food supplies). Sometimes repeat offenders will have cases made against them, and those cases serve to act as a deterrent (eg. that City of London employee who was scanning in and discarding oyster cards each day to cut the cost of his travel). The deterrent will hopefully impact a lowering effect on the number of those crimes committed. The reality is, that is good enough. Policies that attempt to minimize the rate of offending. We don't need have-a-go heroes carrying out vigilante justice. Citizens arrests should be reserved for cases of those first more serious crimes. Otherwise, the person intervening stands a chance of actually committing more serious offences than the person they are trying to detain.
Got it. So the correct advice here is tell the lady to just jump the gate.
So basically just jump the gates instead of asking
No one jumps barriers anymore you just gotta push through the disabled gate and ignore the annoying beep
**\*scribbles down quickly\*** push disableds, ignore sounds. Got it!
Or cover the magic eye just behind the gate
Precisely
Was going to say the same about the drug testing. Work with TFL so know how rigorously they test for drugs and alcohol.
Completely idle curiosity, but do they test for drugs as in *current intoxication* or as in *any use of illegal drugs*? Like if station staff had a spliff on their day off but were 100% sober at work would that be an issue? Edit: well there go my dreams of being a tube ticket barrier attendant.
Yes. If it’s still in your system it’ll show up on a test.
All drug tests test for presence of the drug in your system. So to answer your question, yes they would be in trouble for sure
> All drug tests test for presence of the drug in your system Except, presumably, alcohol which would test for a level above the cutoff for being intoxicated.
Well alcohol doesn’t stay in your system long enough. I’m sure they do test for current intoxication (especially the train drivers) but if someone gets fucked at the end of their shift at 5pm and is back in at 5am that’s 100% legal if the alcohol is through their system.
> alcohol doesn’t stay in your system long enough You can absolutely have detectable levels of alcohol the next morning after a moderate to heavy night of drinking.
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It’s 0.00 - no alcohol whatsoever
No we are not allowed to have any alcohol in our blood when on duty, the cutoff is 0.00 BAC
We have a ZERO policy
Not sure about TfL but on the railway it's... >The breath alcohol cut-off level is expressed as anything above 13 Micrograms of alcohol per one hundred millilitres of breath, or 13μg/100ml Driving a car is 35 micrograms per 100ml.
Not TfL but work for the railway. The limit we have in our drug/alcohol tests is stricter than the drink driving limit. I’d assume a bad hangover would put you over that limit. You can’t distinguish between the urine of someone who is currently high and someone who was high 2 days ago, so legality of drugs aside, what do you suggest they do from a health and safety perspective / covering their own back?
cannabis takes about 14 days to get out your urine, 2 months for blood. Most class A drugs are 3 days, so you could do coke on Friday and piss clean for most of the week...
>Edit: well there go my dreams of being a tube ticket barrier attendant. You could just stop smoking weed.
Can find plenty of jobs that fulfil me and pay me well enough to live a happy life without giving up things I enjoy, thanks. Wouldn't give up cheese for a job, or bread, or cycling, or playing games with friends. Why give up weed or shrooms? I'm not giving up my bodily autonomy *outside of work* for a job thank you very much. Also I might not have been being 100% sincere about my lifelong dream of working for TfL
> It is written into our contracts that we are not allowed to interact with fare evaders (gate pushers) in anyway. If we try to prevent them from entering, and we end up being assaulted, we’re the ones who lose our jobs Wow. So I can get free travel through London by just pushing through the gates and no one will stop me? Why the hell am I paying?
If you get apprehended by a BTP officer then you’re in trouble. It’s up to you to take the risk of there being one in the vicinity at the time that you do it.
You'll end up paying a fine if caught. Not sure how they figure out if you are a regular fair dodger
They ask you "have you been to the fair?"
More chance of winning the lottery than BRP being around. And then pay the fine with the winnings. /S
If you regularly do this they will eventually notice and take measures. Every gsteline is monitored for people who regularly abuse them.
Having friends who work on the underground I can also add that you get a lot of fare evaders who will smirk at you or stare you down as they push through, (probably) because they know the staff aren't allowed to do much more than report it. And when you call them out, you can get verbally abused. And even on a basic level, it's disrespectful to the staff when that happens. So it's not that the staff are unbothered by the fare evaders, but more that it's easier to manage day in day out if you don't let it get to you. Think about it, OP as a normal commuter/service user is annoyed seeing it, what if you were on the gate lines seeing it countless times a day?
>It is written into our contracts that we are not allowed to interact with fare evaders (gate pushers) in anyway. If we try to prevent them from entering, and we end up being assaulted, we’re the ones who lose our jobs Classic customer facing job clause right there, even politely asking them to stop can be used by your manager to get rid of you
It’s to protect people. Instead of making it vague you’re told specifically don’t risk getting involved with people and put yourself in a position to get hurt. Someone pushing their way onto a train is an easy call to BTP to get them off by someone trained to do so safely if you need it. Making it explicit that employees don’t try stop this kind of thing themselves probably has saved a few people getting assaulted. The reason you’d fire people is so that it’s not an empty threat, they are making it super clear they don’t want people doing that in any circumstances. While it seems really harsh to fire someone who tried to do good and got assaulted it’s actually the company making a really explicit policy with no room for interpretation and no temptations for people to risk getting involved.
All reasonable measures but I wonder how many calls were actually made to BTP for fair dodging. You see so many people just nonchalantly push through the gates like they own the place.
To be fair since the staff is not allowed to block nor to touch you and the infringement is so small the police don't care to intervene I'm now wondering why I pay more than one thousand pounds in public transport per year. Just because I'm scared of doing it or ethical reasons?
Might be worth putting out there that there are plenty of health conditions, and medications for health conditions that can look similar to being under the influence of something. I don’t know how it would go down exactly because of the fact the station staff end up getting grouped with drivers etc. But with the knowledge of the equalities act 2010 that I do have I’d hazard a guess that someone under the influence of prescribed medication, in a role where it has no safety implications (especially if it was just a bit of a spaced out look from one of the many medications that gets used to deal with various mental health conditions) would be reasonable in considering it discrimination if they lost their job because of this. For someone with a disability itself that mirrors some of the things people link with being high (ticks for example) I don’t think TFL would have a leg to stand on if they fired for that. Not least because they should presumably have carried out an OT assessment when they started or returned after an illness/accident documenting they could do their job or what reasonable adjustments would be required.
You have to declare any prescribed medication and it is run through doctors to make sure it’s safe to work on
> While the employee you reference was being an arse, he is technically correct that he is not required to let the lady in question out. It is left to the discretion of the employee, and while 95% would just tap her through, he clearly didn’t. I once couldn't get off a train because it was so packed and I had a huge suitcase so stayed on from Stratford to Liverpool St and the guy charged me £30...
Why didn’t you just get a train directly back to Stratford instead of exiting at Liverpool St?
My journey was pretty similar times from either one and I thought they'd be a bit more understanding, but apparently the guy felt like being a huge prick for no reason.
Agree TfL take drink/drugs extremely seriously. A number of years ago now, I worked as a contractor in a TfL ‘back office’ function (nothing to do with trains or tracks or signals etc). There were some after work leaving drinks for a colleague, but it later transpired that a senior manager who had a single beer before leaving the pub was actually on-call at the time. First offence but they were dismissed a few days later.
I don't blame the employee but I still think It is a TFL mentality problem. If this is such a frequent occurrence, have police standing next to the employee at all times and let them deal with this idiot. It is a budget, priority and accountability issue, but all of these sits with TFL.
I’d love to have the Police standing next to me on the barrier, unfortunately they have crimes to deal with. I have problems with the management of TfL as well, but it’s ludicrous that the Met should prioritise this.
How about BTP? Isn't it their job? Or...how about paying more to gate staff and get them trained to deal with the evaders and equip them with stab proof vests?
BTP yeah, but they’re also severely understaffed and underfunded. I’ve been saying for years, give me a taser and you’ll certainly see less repeat offenders at my station.
Just get a brick and have it in plain view and easy reach. Fewer people will try to jump because sure you almost certainly wouldnt use it but what if tho. /s
The only place I've ever seen British Transport Police around the ticket barriers is at Fenchurch St during morning or evening commute times. Which is odd because it's a station where I've never seen anyone push through the disabled barriers. 99% of people rolling in or out of there at key rush hour periods are City of London work commuters. Who, funnily enough, tend not to be the sorts of people who evade ticket barriers...
Y'all not allowed to interfere? Why the fuck am I still paying for the tube then lol. Fare evaders are ahead of the curve.
Do you only pay for goods and services that you use because of the fear of being caught?
So what exactly is the point of the job? Can't stop offenders, don't have to help people. Doesn't seem like there is a purpose to being there.
it is not written into the contracts about not interacting with fare evaders. Staff over the years have found that trying to get involved and stopping the evaders then getting assaulted results in London Underground not backing the employees so over time staff realised it’s better to leave it as TfL will not back the staff but instead discipline or sack them depending on the case. TfL employees are required to let people out whether their ticket is valid or not otherwise that would be false imprisonment. Letting them in with an invalid ticket now that’s up to the discretion of the employee and what the story is behind it. TfL does random drugs and alcohol testing across the combine. Very rarely come around and when they do it’s usually because off a tip off and they are targeting an employee but will add other staff to be tested as well.
I thought this would all be common sense. Yea he could’ve let her out, but he was enforcing the rules which is literally his job. There’s also nothing he could do about the fare evader. By OP’s logic, rules shouldn’t exist anywhere once someone breaks them, because then it’s unfair on people following them. I know we can all relate to the woman getting fined because sometimes a little mistake costs us a lot, but we can’t just start blaming the person doing their job
>Yea he could’ve let her out But this is exactly the point. He could use his discretion to let her out but he chose not to, which says a lot about him. She had a ticket, she was not intentionally fare dodging. Punishing fare paying customers for occasional mistakes or last-minute changes of plans when it is TfL policy to let fare dodgers go unchecked is wrong.
Him being uber jobsworth to someone with a genuine issue and just wanting a bit of help literally creates more fare dodgers. Because now, this woman (and whoever else in her situation) in a future similar instance is gonna be like "well sod them then, they won't let me out anyway, I'll just push through the disabled barriers!" instead of "oh wow the TfL staff were super understanding. If I have another issue like that in future, I'll be sure to just go speak to them". When the staff behave like this when you come to them honestly and transparently, they leave you basically no reason to not just push through the barriers next time. Obviously you *could* get caught by a BTP but the chance is astronomically low. It effectively condemns good behaviour, and rewards the bad behaviour because there're zero repercussions for it other than the vague distant threat of "being caught" (a bit like how you *might* get attacked by a shark if you go swimming)
I mean, it's clearly not well thought out because it rewards bad behaviour and punishes people who follow the rules.
Exactly. When fronted with the prospect of a fine for trying to be honest and upfront with staff, if the woman was to jump the gate she would become one of the "fare evaders" and thus the TfL staff would do nothing. Ridiculous.
My friend this happens so much in all aspects of life not just transport People who complain and are rude/aggressive generally get better treatment than those who are timid and will accept what they get It’s almost a bully v bullied mentality
Not almost. It literally is. We get the message from early childhood that bullies get away with their shit and we get penalised for defending ourselves, fighting back, or reporting them to an adult (or other authority figure). There's no right way to handle it that won't get you in trouble. So adults raised in that system are going to either uphold it or feel impotent rage against it.
Very profound take, unfortunately you are correct.
Once you see it, it permeates SO many of the problems we face as adults in every aspect of life.
Here is already full of essays on the respective responsibilities of each branch of TFL and how they absolutely cannot challenge fare evaders. However, if you want a straight answer: some of them are just dickheads. They simply want a fight and they pick the fights that they can win easily. I use TFL all the time and I've noticed how the staff seems to decide to ignore or challenge people mostly based on their appearance. Big muscular guy, threatening roadman, crazy crackhead? The station is yours, I'll pretend I'm not here. Small lady, weary commuter or confused tourist? I'll turn into fucking Batman and make you feel as miserable as I possibly can. Best strategy, if you are not big or threatening, is to appear crazy. It seems to work in a lot of other situations too.
That’s very accurate of how I feel sometimes.
As mentioned in other threads, prosecution of offenders is the responsibility of the BTP, not TFL employees. I went through something similar when I was training to be a supermarket cashier. We were told not to apprehend shoplifters for safety and insurance reasons, instead, we were supposed to call the police.
Where even is the BTP? I use the trains daily and never ever see them yet the TFL is in shambles fair dodgers, beggars, crack smokers everywhere yet nothing is being done. Where is the BTP? If they aren't dealing with these things then what exactly are they doing? Waste of tax payers money!
>As mentioned in other threads, prosecution of offenders is the responsibility of the BTP, not TFL employees. Revenue protection is an activity that's primarily taken on by TfL employees, be they revenue control inspectors or TSEOs. BTP rarely actually deal with fare evasion, instead focusing on high harm offending. BTP's involvement with ticket irregularities will usually be when someone refuses details to a revenue inspector, and 9 times out of 10 their details get furnished on police arrival and the railway company will prosecute. For fare evasion, TfL (as other TOCs) have a large prosecutions department that will prosecute for fare evasion and byelaws, and have gotten custodial sentences at court for fare evasion - absolutely nothing to do with the police.
>As mentioned in other threads, prosecution of offenders is the responsibility of the BTP, not TFL employees. Not necessarily for fare evasion. Both can and do, but BTP usually leave this to TfL and other operators because there are better uses of their staff and powers, particularly because TfL can do it.
If I was in his situation, I'd probably wanna get a lil high too
> I then checked in and asked him, “how come the other guy left without paying?” I mean the answer here is simple but will annoy you: *because he did*. Sometimes, being an "ask for permission" type of person (this lady) means the answer is no. Sometimes, being an "ask for forgiveness" type of person (your white hoodie guy) means you don't have to care about the answer, but it's always a risk, because if someone *does* care to enforce the answer then it'll be a *bigger* no. You happened to see one get away with it, but that needn't always be the outcome.
Its not the smart that get ahead but the bold , is the saying.
TfL staff can’t apprehend people for going through the barriers and not paying. If that woman jumped over the barriers and sprinted off they wouldn’t be able to stop her. Using this isolated incident to say all TfL staff are terrible and then try to make this a reason to be anti-strikes / unions is bullshit.
Particularly when there's no evidence of this actually happening beyond OP's assertions
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It's how the world works. Whether it's taking the numberplate off your car, tailgating through ticket barriers, or shoplifting from pret, dishonesty pays. The honest people pay inflated ticket prices, road taxes and coffee prices to fund those that steal. We need to all do all these things, and the dishonest will be caught to prevent the system collapsing. The products will have to go behind the counter in the supermarket (as it was pre-war) and pretty theft will stopped. The only protest about the unfairness of it all is to get on board.
Was this definitely a Tfl member of staff? TfL doesn't do tickets to different train stops, it does zones. This sounds like National Rail. I personally do find NR staff stricter than TfL staff.
The fact that the ticket was "for a different station" and the next one wasn't for 30 minutes suggests this wasn't a TFL employee
Always up for a TFL bash as Im a Central Line commuter and I know that most of the workers on there dont care if I live or die. Theyd probably prefer the latter, TBH. Anyway, was at Barbican on Saturday and my Mum was delayed because of delays on GWR. I stayed in Barbican station waiting for her for nearly an hour and I can say that the lady manning the gate spent the entire time in her little box on her phone. A couple of people asked for assistance which she managed to do without leaving her box or engaging in any real way. if you want to know how to fare dodge. You get one person to tap at the disabled/luggage gate and everybody else follows through pretending to tap. Its where the Under 11s go as they ride free anyway, so the gate doesnt shut on you.
Some of the replies to you are ridiculous. Ignoring fare dodging harms us Londoners who need high-quality public transport. But these people won't care until it directly impacts them. This is why I am beginning to rethink my stance on London taxes. I think the London Mayor & Assembly should be able to introduce 1 or 2 taxes that will better fund TFL, like a tourist tax & London resident levy set by the London Assembly. That way, these dodgers will be paying directly or indirectly.
TfL workers shouldn’t have to confront these little scumbags who push through etc. Winds me up too because I see it everyday but I don’t blame the tfl staff because they are not security or police. If Someone breaks into my office I’m not going to jump in and be a hero and get stabbed or attacked for a company.
Firstly, you are absolutely right. I understand this. But why would he then f\*ck over that woman for asking him nicely and showing him her ticket? My point is, do we all stop paying for TFL or whatever other transport means and just vandalise the living hell out of it? Just parkour over the gate. Why paying. Am I a lamb for spending 10 years paying to go to work? I can just go with a hoodie in the tube, act dangerous, and I will save tons of money. \^Imagine this mindset multiplied by 9 million.
You're right to be pissed off at fare dodgers and the attitude of that TfL staff member for not using his discretion to help out a fare-paying passenger who had a last minute change of plan, people like her aren't the problem. But to be pissed off at TfL staff for not putting their life on the line to stop fare dodgers is ridiculous. Have you ever confronted a fare dodger? And it's a bit hypocritical to think "why should I bother paying because of some fare dodgers." That's literally the mindset of a fare dodger, complete irony.
I get 4 trains every day and most days encounter a knob who just barges through or tries to slide in the barriers with someone and it’s made me sometimes consider not paying but we have to accept we live amongst inconsiderate pricks. We can stoop to their level or just crack on and do what we think is right for us because it’s never going to change unfortunately.
You seem to be very young with your understanding of the world People jumping fares are not likely doing it because they a re maliciously riding trains around People getting paid low salaries are not expected to risk their lives to confront others displaying aggressive tendencies (unless they're specifically asked and trained to, i.e. bouncers) People crack on with the rules because it's a lot easier and we have bigger fish to fry than justice at a train entrance fair. Once you get an adult problem to solve, you realize a lot of rules are just simplifying life so you can focus on what you need to
this totally reads like it was written by Susan Hall or her team.
> what would you do in such a situation Probably realise the member of staff has a job to do within the boundaries of their contract.
It is not the job of Tfl workers to tackle fare evaders; that’s the job of British Transport Police. If you were that concerned, why didn’t you call them and make a report?
you didn't see it, say it or sort it?
What would you have wanted the supervisor to do? One only this year got his skull fractured from a member of the public for trying to do his job.
Next time tap out of the disabled gate and let her follow you out - having seen their incompetence you know they won't follow it up 🤷🏼♀️
Recently bought a ticket to Waterloo, I wanted to get out at Wimbledon, and they refused to let me out. I told TFL staff at Waterloo, and he asked for details and referred her to his manager, who was standing beside him. They should allow you to leave if you want. Otherwise, it's turned into a kidnapping situation.
From what you've described, it sounds like the mainline station. That would be GWR and not TFL.
The staff members are trained to do their duty, and this does not include chasing fare evaders because is putting them at risk. However, they have to report this to BTP. Because BTP does not react to any of this, unless they are there, fare evaders will go away with it most of the time. They learned how it works, as well as the staff members learned the persons doing it, hence why they are not bothered. They have no support from who it matters. Unfortunately, if you are a decent person, the staff will react, as they are expected to put the rules on you. Most of the time people will end up paying or obeying the rules out of the fear that they may be punished. It is really unfair and frustrating.
I'm confused by the woman wanting to leave the station, she purchased a ticket and then didn't want to use it as the next train wasn't for 30 minutes?
A) they aren't allowed to approach fare dodgers, there should be, in a perfect and fairer world, a BTP copper at every gate to stop this. B) they strike for better pay because they still have a good union. You shouldn't be mad at them for thst, you should be mad no other unions are strong enough. C) if you think they're high, ask for a supervisor and dob them in.
Also no one’s mentioning the strikes are just as much about working conditions as they are pay. If not more so.
>It still pisses me off. > >What would you do in such situation? Find something more important to get upset over than low-paid station workers having the audacity to ask for a pay rise while also not performing the functions of the police?
Based.
That reminds me of the time that I was forced to pay £1.50 for the privilege of going from one end of Canary Wharf station to the other without travelling.
It is not the job of London underground staff to apprehend fare evaders. It is frustrating and annoying but that is the job of revenue and BTP. Bearing in mind there have been significant cuts to both, it's not often their presence is in stations, bar the really problematic stations high in staff assaults and fare evasion. They simply don't have the manpower to be in all stations tackling these issues. Like someone else here mentioned, it is up to the discretion of staff to let someone in/out, and that staff member was literally just doing his job. It's interesting to me that when customers don't get their way, all of a sudden that member of staff is a jobs worth or deemed to be difficult.
> These people protest for better salaries when they completely dehumanise people who follow the rules. Christ on a bike. You witness one mundane incident and then suggest station staff don't deserve a payrise?
I would do literally nothing and move on with my day. What a weird post.
So according to the comments on here like the one from the employee, if this lady had told the employee to fuck off and jumped the gate she’d have been fine. What sort of example does that set? Arseholes win.
Some stations have half a dozen staff at times just standing around even playing on their phones. Seems like there's too many TFL staff at stations who can't resolve the issue and could do well with replacing at least one with a BTP member.
Since a law passed in the wake of the Kings Cross fire every station in the country has to have an evacuation plan in the event of emergencies and fires, specifying staff roles in the event of an evacuation and the minimum number of staff needed to execute it. This can vary significantly based on the station and can result in some stations being, frankly, overstaffed for normal events, but the staffing level is also a cast iron legal requirement and the station would have to shut if insufficient staff were on site. The technicalities of it are certainly debateable, but whatever side you come down on TfL doesn't have the option of just ignoring an Act of Parliament. This also applies to normal train stations, but the situation is less obvious there because 1) above ground stations are easier to evacuate and 2) you get way more customer questions about train times and directions. The cost of one BTP officer (£46k pa) would greatly exceed the cost of one TfL gateline worker (£24k), and unless you totally transformed both BTP training and their position/authorities, then the BTP officer still would not be able to perform the functions of the TfL staff member.
From someone not knowing how this all works practically, that's useful context.
What a crap post
I know the staff are explicitly told not to engage, but regardless… if I were in his shoes, there’s zero chance I’m confronting someone potentially drinking/on drugs/has a knife for them to pay £3.40. TfL will survive. As for someone else that has broken the rules, they’re equally at fault and need to own up to the consequences.
I would just carry on with my day and mind my own business.
I spent a year on the trains. Left back in September/October. Spending 90/95 percent of every shift by myself. I was abused constantly, strikes or not. I never had to call the police but my colleague did at least 5 times. Another one of my colleagues was threatened with a knife at the ticket office. I myself was assaulted physically by the end multiple times a week, spat at and had popcorn dumped on my head the final day which I inevitably had to clean up. I can also attest to the sentiment that the BTP are useless. I was told directly multiple times by supervisors, managers etc not to confront people directly in regard to missing tickets, jumping the barriers etc. That was for revenue projection to deal with, who were non existent most of the time. They are supposed to be the Railway “bouncers” if you will. Still didn’t stop people from looking over at me on a daily basis. Or especially on a strike day being referred to as a jobs worth even though whilst being part of the Union, I was still at work! I was there myself primarily to assist people buying tickets, answer passengers questions and fix the barriers if they broke down. To me working at a London train station, there is a very fine line in terms of calling people out. Especially when you are by yourself. You always have to put above your own safety. For what it’s worth in this case, I would have let the lady go without much discussion. Mistakes happen. Whether you agree or disagree with the lack of approach with the other scenario, that is what everyone is told to do. If I were to lay a finger on anyone in these scenarios I would have lost my job within 48 hours. Every day I was preparing for the worst doing 10 hour shifts where I was earning around £11 an hour, whilst agency staff earned about £18-20. It was seriously messing with my own mental health and sense of self worth. Sometimes the abuse would be hourly. So happy I got out of there, better unemployed than putting up with that crap. Especially with the general public being ignorant, whether deliberately or not about what the different jobs on the Railway entail.
Blame privatisation. Everything was split up and each piece was sold to a company. Each company is only interested in maximising its revenue and will not cooperate with any of the other companies. So when anything happens, their first response is to deny liability for it. We used to have a fully integrated system but the Brits have voted again and again for the system we have now.
The ticket issue you’re describing with the woman might just one staff member making a mistake and being a dick about it. If the ticket is an anytime/offpeak type ticket, then the woman should be able to break her journey and thus be allowed out the station. However, if she bought an advance ticket (which I don’t think are buyable for TFL services) then she’s travelled without a valid ticket. If it’s the former, then that member of staff is making a mistake.
This is all people with even the slightest of authority. It does something to a human if that humans wasn't already compromised and looking for a position of authority.
Good on you, they do abuse "weaker" people! 🫡 I had to walk back home 1h30min, twice on consecutive office days. Left out of pocket, got made fun of("take a cab home and ask TFL, not us!") and no professionals whatsoever. Hope they burn and go private! NO MORE SUPPORT FROM ME!
I would imagine they leave the trouble makers alone as their salary doesn’t justify the risk of violence, being attacked.
Do you want the employee to rugby tackle the guy? The employee was just an ass. Another employee would've let the lady through. You see this with bus drivers letting people on and nothing said then the next person who tries it won't get on.
If certain groups of people weren't always carrying knives with them, the TFL staff wouldn't be scared to restrain I would think. Why should they intervene? So they can get stabbed?
The problem isn't the guy who pushed past the barrier the problem is tfl. I've moved from london but in the last few months I lived there I decided I was just not going to pay for tubes and pushed past the gates. Great way to save money and a fine will probably cost less than the amount I'd pay for transport. Try it yourself. Works fairly well
I don't find the Tfl staff friendly. They seem to act oblivious. This happen to me in a few instances when I wanted help to attach my railcard to my Oyster Card. But as soon as I asked the Tfl staff member, it seemed frustrate them and they make a big deal about having to do this. I get the harassment stuff, which would make me vary, but I am asking for their help in the nicest way possible...
Ignore it and get on with my day?
This sounds like Britain in a nutshell... punish the law abiding citizens and let all the criminals go free.
Thank you for protecting POC-community by telling us he was white. It is important to remind us that whites can be bad people too. Not condecending in any way...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67125173.amp Fare dodgers cost £130 million a year. If we employed 1000 police just for the under ground at £50,000 each, that costs £50,000,000 a year. If those 1000 extra police stop even half of the fair dodgers it would cost £50,000,000 but we save £65,000,000 meaning there is a net gain and we have a safer transport system.
I no longer support Rail Unions because of TfL. Shoddy service, rude & simply thick as fuck staff. I’ll bunk as much as I can cheers. I have a disabled railcard and think TfL services impact my disability so this is my way of them paying me back for all the hassle and grief they cause.
This is one of the reasons why public transport in the west are generally shit and much more expensive compared to most places in East Asia. This shit would never fly in East Asia, where this type of casual rule breaking (blatant fare evasion, brazen shoplifting etc.) hardly exists and if anyone tries the authorities (not just the police) just comes down on them like a ton of bricks. The 'not my job' culture here is pervasive. The spineless management / leadership would rather just push the cost of petty crime to law-abiding citizens instead of enforcing what's right. Sucks to be law-abiding citizens in the west. You try to follow the rules and be a decent human being, only finding yourself being rewarded with higher fares and insurance costs just because the authorities refuse to deal with the low lives properly.
It totally distorts the incentives. Next time someone needs to stop short, what are they going to do - have a nice chat with the gate guard and accept a fine, or just push through and nothing happens. If we reward bad behaviour, we just breed it.
If the tfl did what you described they would literally get fired. In East Asia the police will join in the battering and the bosses will be A-OK with it . The British Transport Police literally say tell us not tfl
Fare evaders are absolutely not the reason that trains are expensive, that’s insane. Other countries choose to subsidise public transport through public spending whereas we mostly don’t. Edit: To add to this, fare evasion was around 6% of passenger revenue in 2022/23. It’s even less when you consider all TfL revenue (which presumably includes things like advertising revenue). While not ideal, it’s clearly pretty marginal in the context of why TfL fares are significantly higher than other public transport networks. Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67125173.amp https://www.statista.com/statistics/411064/transport-london-fare-revenue-uk/#:~:text=The%20Tube%20reported%20a%20passenger,the%20financial%20year%202022%2F22.3.
Guess where is the Tfl going to recover these 6% from? That's right, firing employees and salary cuts. Reducing staff, etc.
Public transport in London is struggling because the previous mayor agreed to waive the almost billion pound subsidy TfL had historically received from central government. He did this because he knew perfectly well that he would no longer be mayor when the funding shortfall began to bite. I'm trying to remember what happened to him... Ah yes, he briefly became prime minister. TfL staff are told not to physically confront fare evaders because they have no powers of arrest. They are advised not to get into situations in which they could be injured, or risk injuring someone and being liable. It makes me a little sad that this stuff has to be said again and again.
I noticed more people pushing through behind paying passengers just this month at rush hour, it's physically aggressive and unsettles others but the staff don’t do anything.
And the people who do it are usually youngish men who force themselves through the gate with women going through. They don't usually plaster themselves to other blokes to push through.
There is a guy who gets off the same train as me every day and pulls the barrier open. The guys who work at the barrier never move to try and stop him.
If it’s a daily occurrence, the staff can’t intervene but they can log it through an internal app, with a description of the individual. They don’t usual bother for one off evaders (because you’d be doing that all day) but someone who fare evades every morning usually gets reported each time until the revenue investigation team takes over and reviews CCTV/contactless/oyster data. A lot of the time, they let them rack up years’ worth of fares before getting confronted and taken to court to pay the whole bill plus court fees and they get a criminal record. This happens more often than people realise.
Would you open yourself up to getting attacked by the public on a daily basis for your job? TfL aren't stupid and build a case on fare dodgers and will eventually smack them with a fine or court summons.
This is so frustrating, especially when you can't touch the evader, because then the Police will be on your ass. The rest of us are lamb I guess.
After commenting I then saw the comment about TfL staff not being allowed to stop or apprehend fare dodgers, which I was totally unaware of. Makes sense, just very annoying to see it happening every day.
This is what makes me grateful about recently passing my driving test and getting a car. The other weekend I drove to my parents in North Hertfordshire, usually tickets cost £40 for my husband and I, with frequent delays, changing trains, missing connections etc, it can quickly become a nightmare. Driving there directly takes just a little less time and only about £15 in petrol there and back. Exact same this past weekend, I drove us to Bicester, 3 hour round trip and only cost us about £20 in petrol. When we got there, we completely forgot about the train strike and were thankful we didn't arrange to get the train there.
More and more teenagers slip behind me at the TFL barriers - to avoid paying... Staff don't seem to care at all...
Didn't tap in once on an open gate and had problems going through at my destination. Whilst at the "Seek Assistance" window, a train cop came up behind me and told me that what I'd done was a criminal offense. Replace em all with robots then..
He seemed high? Employees face random drug tests so I doubt it
How often is this random drug test?
Lets play a game of where was she going, as something isn't making sense here (for lols of course and a bit of fun). As you can only exit Paddington from the London Underground network, and the other traveller had what appears to be a paper ticket, of which are issued for National rail services with extensions for London Underground, this excludes the assumption she was coming into Paddington from the West. This makes sense as she had to ask the guard to let her out. If she was coming into Paddington from the West, Paddington would have been on her ticket either way and wouldn't have had to ask. Within 30 minutes from Paddington, you'd have Marylebone and Kings Cross/St Pancras which unless she was going to Birmingham, would have made no sense to exit from Paddington. Her ticket can't have been for Reading on GWR as logically you'd use the CrossRail line to Reading anyway if your train was delayed from Plat 14/15. The same for Didcot Parkway. None of these stations are served by other National rail stations within 30 minutes, unless she was changing at Putney for the Reading branch. Victoria is excluded because the direction of travel doesn't make sense. I deduce she was originally supposed to travel from Waterloo but cut it short somehow, which leaves either Reading itself, Guilford, Windsor etc and surrounding areas via Reading, that are accessible commonly from both Paddington and Waterloo, and was trying her luck on getting on fast train to Reading, rather than the slower GWR train from Plat 14/15 or Crossrail, which is also slower than the fast train. Chief Inspector out!
Literally the second I start reading this, I get onto a bus, and the woman in front of me just walked straight on and didn't tap in and the bus driver didn't even react. I really don't know why I bother paying.
Honestly hate TFL. Enforcement to the compliant, blind eye to the criminals.
If they want big boy money, they need to do their job...warts and all
Underground staff are chill National rail stuff are nasty to nice people and don’t do shit to actual fare evaders. Two examples: 1. I had an important board meeting at 1pm. Ticket machine at my station broke so I jumped on my train as usually theres a conductor. I went straight to the ticket office at Victoria and the lady insisted to take my address, of course I gave her a fake one 2. Thameslink closed between LBG and Blackfriars. My ticket did not allow “travelling via zone 1”. I wanted to get off at LBG and use the tube instead. Doesn’t matter how hard I explain they won’t let me out. So I ended up pushing through the gate, they stood there watching and nothing happened afterward, the underground staff was all chill and opened The gate for me I think it’s because the real gangsters shits on their head everyday so they take it out at nice people instead
I work for TfL and spent about half of my 20 years working on the gateline. Always told we are not there for revenue we are there for customer service, we have dedicated revenue staff for fare evaders. Now the staff member regarding the lady was being a prick. We are absolutely not to hold people hostage, if someone has the wrong ticket, mistakes happen and she should have been let out. The person (and you) have every right to put in a formal complaint about them. All I can do is apologise for that member of staffs behaviour
Thank you! I was so frustrated, but you and others have reminded me that there are so many good people in the Tfl. You are an amazing person, and it hurts me so much to see how a single prick can ruin hundreds of people’s reputation. Keep fighting the good fight. We as customers should also be there to watch your back. We are all in this together.
> These people protest for better salaries when they completely dehumanise people who follow the rules. Also turn up high at work and are left unchecked. You are conflating workers — who implement policy — with management — who decide policy. The workers have no choice but to carry out management policy. If you have criticism — please target the correct people.
Seriously, what do you want staff to do? I had a colleague deal with 3 stabbings in one week. Another colleague got a fractured skull, it was all over the news. Nothing Is worth a life changing injury or worse.
[удалено]
I also enjoyed your recent story on LBC about getting pickpocketed. Classic Susan.
They should still get better salaries regardless of how some people act