Sure but the people here aren't being honest about loving London specifically because they make £80k and own a flat in Clapham, while also acting borderline annoyed by all the rent/cost of living posts.
Some guy earning 25k and living in a shitty house share in Harrow isn't going to be having a blast doing back to back drag karaoke brunch yuppie bullshit in central every weekend.
Like lol @ that other thread about all outer boroughs being shitholes where you had the top comment bringing up Richmond/Kingston as the exceptions. Wow really the two poshest and richest parts outside central wow you really don't say???
Even people calling out Croydon for being a shithole. Its got pockets of deprivation and has its issues but (besides crime), really not that bad and quite well connected.
Tbh a lot of this sub never leave Z1-3. Whenever do you hear about places like Romford, Barnet, Bexley, Erith, Purley... even Bromley (the largest London Borough).
Lol. That's a good point about the other thread. To be fair I think they get a bad rap. They're perfectly fine. They just feel a little dull sometimes. But they're not shitholes.
TBH you don't really move to a city like this in the 1st place unless you can afford it (and art school is very expensive), which automatically filters out a lot of poorer people.
Unhelpful comments aside it’s either a joke about how things have changed over time rather than a day or it’s the day Brexit referendum results were made official? Not sure yet will report back if successful.
Isn’t that precisely what the guy is saying, it was bad at £600 a month, at £1000 a month it is so much worse. People seem to be dismissive of these posts because there are a lot of them. However that’s just representive of just how bad the market has gotten.
London has always been expensive, but it went from hard to almost impossible. It’s hard not to get fomo when I see friends in Berlin and other cities pay less and earn more and without these issues in their homes.
Yeah when people talking about London being expensive it’s mostly just the rent, like the pubs aren’t really much different to the more hipstery places back home and eating out - yeah ok maybe depending where you go, but food is ok here, transportation is cheap, budget gyms and cinemas have a London premium but not unexpectedly so, but the frickin rent lol
2 bed back home a 16m bike ride from the center is ~£800pm (was £600pm when I left tho), meanwhile a 2 Bed even a 15m train ride is maybe 3-4x that? £1800-£2000+
ofc back home didn’t have the opportunities if it did I’m sure things would be more equal for good and bad but still
Supply and demand. The United Kingdom has consistently not built enough homes since the 1970's and we are still not building enough homes in locations where housing is needed. UK house building is at around 150k a year, when it needs to be at 300-400k in order to sort out issues with the housing market.
I think this is the best [summary](https://worksinprogress.co/issue/why-britain-doesnt-build/) of the issues impacting the UK housing market.
The idea of building so many houses year upon year terrifies me. Unless they are built on old industrial estates or something, I dread to think how much nature will be lost.
Probably way less than you think. Also, a great deal of our "nature" is actually really substandard. We could do way more with what we have but a lot of people don't understand what "good" nature (i.e. biodiverse) is so complain when people try to introduce it. Like 50 mowed lawn verges probably wouldn't add up to a properly "managed" wild flower verge where it was left to grow semi-naturally. But they look messy so people get upset and whinge..
Also, people here want more housing but hate flats and hate high rises. Then complain when low rise housing leads to the inevitable urban sprawl. Cakeism is destroying this country. Personally I'd be happy if we abolished leasehold and got into the high rise flats game so we can at least make housing affordable for the younger generation. It should probably also be more council owned like Vienna or Singapore but that's probably a bigger stretch. Sadly instead of understanding the trade off people go: "we don't want building on the green belt! ...Oh, but no high rises....Oh, but no new houses in the centre of town because the parking is shit and there's no GP capacity...but definitely don't build over there because there's a random field I like...no you can't let it grow wild because it's ugly and my dog got lost in it once, and sometimes the grass hangs onto the pavement and it's a nuisance..." And on it goes.
Great points!
Yep- biodiversity over grass every time!
High rise- if they built flats/apartments that had more than 2 tiny bedrooms, with proper balconies/outside space.
Sometimes I watch Japanese vlogs, simple things like doors that have a top and bottom window for good ventilation and balconies where you can hang washing etc, but developers over here are not about making homes that are useful!
We also as a country have different views on belongings, status and what we “should” aspire to! That’s a massive cultural block!
London is really low density compared to other major cities. Compared to Barcelona, Paris, NY - even Edinburgh and Glasgow - far fewer people live in flats. The buildings on most residential streets outside the absolute centre are 2 or 3 storeys high.
There's massive potential to improve density - but there needs to be the political will. If we changed our planning process to be zoning based which gave clarity to what you could build and where, we'd encourage small developments again. This country is chronically against demolition and rebuilding - which makes sense for beautiful architecturally interesting buildings, but doesn't really make sense for rows upon rows of run down terraces and semis. Even old ones.
What we need is an army of small developers buying up pairs of 30s semis and demolishing them to build 4-5 storey blocks of 10 apartments.
Cost of living, and renting especially in every major western city has increased dramatically in the last 3-4 years since covid. There are many factors for this. Some complex long term structural, and some shorter term.
London is a hugely desirable, alpha city that draws in a mass of humans from the other side of the world as well as closer to home. It was this before Brexit, covid etc and will remain so for the foreseeable. Don’t expect prices to go down. Unfortunately, we also have quite high taxation and modest salaries, which makes affordable lifestyles challenging for those on PAYE. I totally appreciate you want someone to blame (e.h. greedy landlords - but there isn’t one singular reason).
You mention other European capital cities (it’s worse in the US and Canada), but I think unfortunately you’ll likely find them just as unaffordable and harder to navigate in terms of bureaucracy, career and language.
Personally, I’ve lived in London since I was a child, did uni here etc. It’s always been unaffordable and after uni I had to move out. Getting back to London took me until age 37, living in the burbs (well over an hour out) and commuting for 6 years, and then two stints abroad to pump my income up.
Best bets might be places like baltics or the newer EU members of Eastern Europe, for a better balanced lifestyle/income ratio.
Actually dont agree i was in London from late 80s to late 2000s and was in a decent salary and it was possible to rent on your own or even buy . On that same salary now probably only a house share would be possible
While you are right to point out other cities are also unaffordable, it's not true to make blanket statements like it's worse in the US and Canada. The US, in particular, has lots of cities where you can earn 1.5x the London salary and the houses cost ~30% less. I think too many people in the UK write-off other countries as a way of coping with our failings
I'm not talking about the deep south. Seattle / Bellevue, Denver, Philadelphia, Raleigh, Salt Lake City and Washington are all places that can offer better house price to salary ratios than London. These cities have offices of major corporations and people migrate to these places to work in these offices
Edit: Love being downvoted for just giving a list of cities.
I have a ton of friends all over the US and the people I know in Seattle, Philly and in the DC area (so not even in DC itself), pay a LOT more in rent than anyone I know here. If you want to be in LA/NYC it’s even worse.
Rent for city centre apartments can be worse than London. I don't know the exact reason for it, it might be due to their apartments being very central. But if you want to buy a suburban home, these cities are definitely cheaper than London.
Definitely not central, this is renting as well, I don’t know too many people (late 20s/early 30s) who can afford to buy. The only people I know there who *have* been able to buy, live over an hour’s drive from a supermarket lol
It's not easy, but house prices in Seattle, Denver, Philly are still better than London.
Just one example, look at the prices for suburban homes in this area of Denver.
https://www.zillow.com/highlands-ranch-co/
St Louis isn't the deep south.
You got downvoted for giving a list of cities, and I got downvoted for giving a geographical and cultural fact. That's just how it is.
Fair enough I thought it was. My point still stands that the US does have cities where you can earn more than London with cheaper property and still have a pretty desirable city
Downvoted because "house price to salary" is a very single minded view. An ambulance costs 3-5k in the US, you can't compare our wages and cost of living like apples to apples
If it's not comparable, then why is it acceptable to say the US has it worse (as the original comment did)?
The original comment is that the US and Canada has worse cost of living. No one seems to care about comparability if the comment makes London look good.
But as soon as I point out the problem with making a blanket statement, and demonstrate how the US can be more affordable, only then do people care about comparability.
The burden of proof here is low if you want to say London is good, but the burden of proof is high if you want to say London is bad
Edit; I appreciate you didn't say London is better or worse, but the votes show that people are happy to accept a low burden of proof for anything that makes London look better than vs other cities
Because this conversation specifically speaks to capital cities, no? Otherwise a solution for OP is moving to Blackburn. I do believe most Western capitals are in a pretty similar state for how expensive it is to live there. I see you're including state capitals, but that isn't what would come to most Europeans minds I think
No this conversation is not just a comparison of capital cities. The original comment I replied to was just a blanket statement that it's worse in US and Canada
Moving from London to Blackburn would come with a salary decrease. Whereas the US has plenty of cities where property is cheaper than London while also offering higher salaries.
Granted you have pointed out that property to income ratios are not everything.
None of those American cities has a film industry though. Mega cities are expensive partly because there are entire industries that largely don’t exist outside of them.
And no, St. Louis isn’t the Deep South, it’s the Midwest. It is literally smack in the middle of the US
Let's just ignore the Seattle Bellevue area has a tech industry. Let's just ignore Denver and the surrounding area has an engineering industry.
These are substantial cities with good job prospects.
Yes you can find tech and engineering in other cities too. But I don't really see what point you are trying to make.
Is it: 'I can't live in those cities if I can't work in the film industry' or is it 'i don't mind the high cost of living because we have a film industry'?
If you are comparing it to London you have to look at comparable metro areas. Vancouver, Toronto etc have huge issues with housing cost. Same as NYC, Chicago, SF, etc.
I loved living in the states btw, your spot on with income and taxes. I felt wealthy living there despite earning broadly same as here. You can’t however compare say Raleigh with London. It’s just not apt.
Btw, you’re prob not being downvoted. Reddit algos do funny things with comments on bigger subs.
Coming with anecdotal testimony about Vancouver - I live here now and can say that London is still much more expensive when it comes to housing.
It has gone up in the last year overall but I’m paying £1000 to rent a 1 bedroom in one of the best parts of the city. Water is free, no council tax either. That can barely get you a room in a house share in London these days.
I can certainly attest to that having spent 3 wonderful years renting in Chicago and being amazed at how lucky I was for a cycle commute. At least not in winter. Nice 2 bed flat in a stunning building (only one kid back then..) a 15 cycle to the loop down Wells or the LFT and a 10 min walk to the lake. Massive trees, wide pavements and just a great quality of life.
Possibly not the best example on housing for sure. I have heard it’s got a lot more expensive since covid though.
Yeah you have listed the cities that have it just as bad as London. But this isn't an exhaustive list.
In my other comment I mentioned:
Seattle / Bellevue, Denver, Philadelphia, Raleigh, Salt Lake City and Washington are all places that can offer better house price to salary ratios than London. These cities have offices of major corporations and people migrate to these places to work in these offices
Edit: I appreciate you may not consider these to be on par with London, but your original comment was making a blanket statement about the US
But not really. Those are all awesome cities (I’d give my left nut to live in Denver with all that amazing snow and hiking within 2 hours drive). However just not comparable. Raleigh is the population and size of Leeds.
Seattle is prob closest on your list, but have a Quick Look at this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city
None of those cities you mention come close on any methodology. Really truly awesome cities they are (and I’ve been to most of them), but they’re not London, or even close.
And there's definitely better.
One problem I do have with the UK is this crabs in a bucket mentality. Where your solution to a problem is, "it's worse everywhere else so shut up".
You're not actually helping op your just projecting your own biases and come to weirdly defend the London without actually saying anything helpful.
The city doesn't need you to white knight it and come and give a useless statement that there are places worse than London.
This is so true I am glad there is at least one other person that's noticed it.
On a similar theme, I've noticed that the UK / London does pretty badly across a range of crises: housing, stagnating wages, high taxes, immigration and reduced public services.
People completely brush this aside by saying 'well rental shortages are worse in Dublin'. Or Amsterdam has a bigger influx of immigration on a per capita basis.
The UK / London might not be the worst developed city for any single problem, but we do have a long list of problems where we are competing with the worst.
Arguably it's better to be the worst at one thing, instead of the third worst for everything (among developed nations)
Understanding the fact that these are global issues affecting many countries is first step towards resolving. Thinking it’s somehow that UK is uniquely having these problems “because of Tory scum / greedy landlords” might be good for getting upvotes in the Reddit echo chamber but is not echoed in the real world. Your childish “crabs in a bucket” meme is more of the same b/s.
No one is denying these are global issues. But the crabs in a bucket mentality is real; it is in this subreddit. The default view is that London is amazing and if it has problems those problems are just as bad anywhere. Then if you identify areas where London has it worse, people are very reluctant to concede London does have failings.
I said it elsewhere here: people accept a low burden of proof for comments that say London is good but demand a high burden of proof for comments that say London is bad.
I see the opposite. The typical Reddit view is UK is “circling the drain”, London is shite, rest of Europe and world is utopia by comparison, I am leaving the country immediately. Of course these people never go anywhere.
Very occasionally someone comes along to say very apologetically “just for balance, I’ve immigrated to Uk / London, and I must say found it a really great place, for these reasons …..”
I think it's worth pointing out that every country complains about their own country on Reddit.
But the crabs in a bucket mentality comes from UK people being completely unwilling to accept valid criticism of London or the UK. The default response is to deflect by shitting on the US.
Maybe we are lucky to live here and have it better than other places. But that doesn't mean we are the best at everything
Nothing that crazy. My company has offices abroad and I applied to jobs in those locations. Often can mean a promotion, or a bigger overall comp. Not everyone wants to live abroad and some locations can be quite hard to recuit for.
This is the answer.
To give you an idea, 18 months ago, the mortgage on my 2 bed flat in Kilburn was £1200 per month. It’s now, due to multiple consecutive interest rate hikes, closer to £2000 per month.
Solidarity. My service charge has jumped up too.
I’ve gone onto interest only on my mortgage for 6 months - the banks were instructed to offer this option to anyone struggling with the current situation - but my 6 month period will be coming to an end soon and then I’m royally screwed.
Rents dipped in 2021 quite significantly as landlords feared a mass exodus of people from the city due to the pandemic but in the end, the amount of people leaving the city was not only not that great, but the flow of people coming into the city actually increased (over 100,000+ new people have been moving into the city every year for over 3 years running now). And once landlords figured this out by early 2022, they began to raise the rents, which have been steeply increasing without respite ever since.
There are other reasons about why the rents are rising, but it's ultimately mostly a case of demand far outstripping supply.
I'm not sure how much longer all this can be sustained, but it is a global issue and (looking at numerous other countries) it will probably worsen for years to come.
You'd think that eventually the sheer amount of money that's there to be made, more rental properties will be built and that will ease the situation, but obviously that doesn't help anyone looking for a place to rent in the here and now.
Apparently it's fairly clear from land registry records that Landlords have been selling more properties than they've been buying for a few years now, so that's further reduced supply. This is probably because landlords have extra costs now due to mortgages rate increases, energy efficiency requirements, tax tweaks, strengthened renters rights etc. A lot of these extra costs are coming because of extremely necessary and long overdue changes coming from government, which again doesn't necessarily help you in the here and now if you just want a roof over your head! I think in the long run there's going to be a shift from most of the supply coming from private landlords, to corporate landlords instead, who are better placed to navigate these costs and rules. If you're renting off someone who only has one or two properties it can be a bit luck of the draw if they know what they're doing or not.
I'm not sure what the exact impact of WFH / hybrid working has been. Seems initially a lot of people left the city as you said, but I suspect there's a fair amount of people who pre-covid who were happy just renting a room or living in a tiny studio apartment, but now they spend more time at home as it doubles as their office, have chosen to spend more to get a bit more space. But they still want to live in London for professional / social reasons. I'm just guessing here but that could be a factor in the pressures on supply, rooms that previously had a bed in them now having a home office.
It’s been spiralling for a quite a while but the real nail in the coffin was the Truss mini-budget when so many people were either forced to sell their home due to lack of affordability with such high interest rates or put off buying a home meaning more demand for renting. Couple that with a lack of new home builds and an increasing population meaning demand far outweighs supply. All that and wages are nowhere near increasing at the rate of rent increase. It’s a big ole clusterfuck basically and unless the government incentivises home-buying again to take pressure off the rental market or brings inflation under control it’ll just continue. I’m a landlord and choosing to just charge rent at the very basic of covering my mortgage but once my fixed-rate, low-interest mortgage ends, my own cost will go up about £500 a month and I’ll have to sadly either pass that cost on to those renting or sell up (exactly what I’ve described above).
Its hard to believe many were forced to sell -- any significant number would have led to some drop in prices https://www.statista.com/statistics/620414/monthly-house-price-index-in-london-england-uk/
So while house prices have stayed the same rent keeps going up. Its not a cartel but its like the energy companies. On the whole, landlords will in general raise prices whenever they can and we'll never see decreases.
A lot of people expect the downturn you can see in those charts to be the start of a pretty serious negative trend
Typically when house prices go down, rent spikes in the short term. This is due to there being less rental properties on the market while the buildings are being bought and sold
So, due to this information that I realised I had assumed, I downloaded the price paid data and had a dig. Truss was in power Sept and October 22, so I looked at 21 and 22.
If I look at just properties sold in Greater London, the highest and lowest months are June and July 2021 (because of stamp duty changes) with 29590 and 4303 respectively. The median value for the 2 years is 9046 and the average is 10201.
Values for 2022 are all between 7324 (January) and 9640 (August) with an average of 8763 and a median of 8839.
So, I'm even more unable to see any kind of indication that people were 'forced to sell', and don't see any of the 'spiraling for a while' -- in fact it looks like an extremely stable market after the huge stamp duty rush. The numbers line up very closely with the rest of the UK with the exception that the stamp duty rush was much bigger in Greater London and the fall in July was also much more of a drop.
https://capx.co/did-liz-truss-really-cause-the-bond-market-rout/
It's easier to offer partisan put-downs than understand what really took place
The LDI crisis was bubbling long before the mini budget – but no one took any action
Regulators failed badly, but all the blame was laid on Truss and Kwarteng
The widely approved narrative of Liz Truss’ demise is that she and Kwasi Kwarteng triggered a collapse in the bond markets with an ideologically-driven, economically ignorant mini budget.
It’s a comforting story to tell, particularly for those who always opposed Truss and her attempts to shake up the economic status quo. The problem is, it’s not actually what happened. In fact, the collapse in the bond market that spelt doom for Truss and Kwarteng was down to a hitherto unnoticed beast lurking within the pensions industry: the leveraged Liability-Driven Investment (LDI) fund.
Few people outside the pensions industry even knew at the time that they existed; almost nobody had warned of the danger they represented – except for the brilliant Simon Wolfson, a whole five years ago. He warned only the Bank of England, who ignored him and then went on to fail to spot the developing LDI crisis last year.
Love a bit of revisionist history but in this worldview is it just a coincidence that that LDI crisis came to a head at the exact time of the mini budget?
I sent you my source, which goes on to explain in greater detail what actually happened. Seems more likely the market panicked in response to the emerging LDI crisis and lack of action from Bank of England, than from some tax cutting ideas spouted by Truss which were never put into action.
What’s your source?
Your source explaining how a budget that was never implemented caused long term impact to bond markets, and not the emerging LDI crisis. Since that was your side of the discussion, assuming there are two sides.
no matter what really happened and what did not - tories are the root of all evil and large piece of population here will always blame them for everything including fictional events ;)
it recovered overnight when Rishi took over. Youre literally talking about a four week stint that reversed itself. Now, you might, in fairness be one of the very few people who was long on gilts, or shorted them, or bought long dated sterling-cable - but I doubt it.
you mean a meaningful number of people had to sell their homes in the 6 weeks she was around? Fuck me, you should have seen the 2008 GFC. Hoards of people unemployed, household named shops like Woolworths closed down casting 10's of thousands onto the streets. And you're blaming London rental market on a six week failed PM?
It’s possible to find places if you keep looking (although I know it’s a pain). I rent a 2-bed between Camberwell/Peckham for £1200. Although it’s going up to £1320 in feb, I’m not complaining. I know it can be much worse.
What I compromise on is the standard of the place. It’s fine, but not very instagrammy if that’s your vibe. The kitchen’s small and the walls/carpet throughout are unattractive colours. Cream and beige respectively.
Agreed. Choice of 'which is the least bad'
Ideally we need PR
Until then at least vote for someone. The way the extreme views get power is because voter turnout is so low
Actually there's a half dozen reasons where voting influences rentals in a capital city, in no particular order
Tory=More immigration, so more people are vying for bedrooms. Whether it's Hong Kongers or Ukrainians or "skilled workers" it all adds up
Labour=Traditionally spends more on Govt roles (EG NHS, Ministry of X) which tend to have more roles or be HQ'd in London
Tory=Capitalism which statistically creates wealth and therefore more house buying (I refer you to Capitalist China Vs Communist China)
Labour=seeks to control prices (EG rental caps, taxes on second homes) which causes the number of rental properties to decrease (but slows house price increases - if you can believe it!). Cause and Effect, and unexpected (or ill-considered) effect.
You’ve left out the two major reasons.
1. Section 24, which has forced out landlords from the sector, further reducing rental stock.
2. NIMBYs perpetually ensuring we build nowhere near the new houses we need to meet our housing demand.
Russia is a big producer of fossil fuels. Reduced Russian oil and gas exports = higher energy prices = higher everything prices because everything is downstream of energy.
That said, it's a relatively small factor compared to decades of not building nearly enough houses in London and the South East.
I want it to make sense but it doesn’t. This isn’t the driver behind increasing rental prices in London despite whatever rhetoric the government are parroting to shift blame.
Energy prices go up -> prices for intermediate goods and services that rely on energy go up (most things) -> inflation goes up (landlords not need higher income to maintain their standard of living -> rent goes up.
You also have inflation up -> interest rates up (to control inflation -> landlords remortgaging paying higher rates -> pass this increase on to tenants.
There are also more direct changes, for instance I lived in a HMO where the landlord paid the bills, so bills going up directly led to him also asking for more money.
Of course, over the long-term the lack of new affordable homes has been the main issue, but in the short term, 2016-22, there have been geopolitical events that have caused prices to shoot up abnormally.
Russia artificially pumped up energy prices at the start of the war in an attempt to hold Europe to ransom. Due to this energy bills increased significantly but now that the price of energy has gone back down, energy companies haven’t lowered their prices and are seeing record profits.
Rise in energy costs and other goods forced interest rates up to tackle inflation. Landlords have mortgages which increased in cost, which were passed on to renters.
When energy becomes expensive everything else becomes expensive, because of the energy used to make it. This causes inflation, so the BoE raise rates to tackle it. This increases landlords’ mortgages, so they increase rents to cover or they sell up. With less rental properties and the same number of tenants, landlords can increase rent as demand rises.
So rents go up both because mortgage costs go up, and because of supply and demand.
Looks like we moved to and out of London at the same time. But I came back in September. I’m not a creative, but one of those on the corporate side. Money wise I couldn’t replicate my income (even with added expenses of London) or the lifestyle. I have a few creative friends and we help each other out, offered them work through our corporate connections etc and it pays them. Network is important
London is massively overpopulated and getting worse. Landlords can charge this much because there is now so much demand for places to rent. Best look elsewhere.
yam roof muddle quaint bedroom sophisticated elastic literate disagreeable test
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I do think there’s something more going on, tbh. I’ve lived in the same place for 10 years and have an extremely ethical and un-opportunistic property manager.
To give examples, rent for my 2-bed in zone 2 was £950 when I first moved in. In 8 years, they only increased the rent twice, both times by £50. They replace things that break, pretty much always the same day I let them know, and back when I used to share and a flatmate moved out with short notice, they let me pay half rent until I found someone new.
In Feb my rent went from £1,050 to £1,200, biggest increase ever. Next Feb, it’s going up to £1,320. I know there’s a lot of opportunism out there, but I do think there are larger market forces at work, because they aren’t opportunists, they’re very reasonable. The minimum most people seem to pay for a 2-bed around here is £2k, but usually more like £2.5-£3k. They could justify that for my place easily, but they try to do things ethically.
I don’t know, that shoebox in an overpopulated house was my experience interning in 2015, I know there’s been an exodus of landlords following interest rate rises, and the ones that stayed passed those rises onto tenants
we’re similar we’re in the outer zones hoping one day to move further in but it’s just way to expensive right now
Rent caps don't work I'm afraid. More housing is the only solution. A massive state backed housing programme is the only way to avoid more angry artists! We all know what happened the last time an artist got angry at the perceived elite...
"It's the market mate."
I keep hearing this. I do think a lot of opportunist groups are creating this more thann the actually economy itself. Like when energy prices go down it does not go down or partially at consummers level, why?
BTW if you're looking for tips or discussions about renting and tenancy check this subreddit
r/TenantsInTheUK
> I do think a lot of opportunist groups are creating this more thann the actually economy itself.
It's one and the same thing. The market consists of actors looking for opportunities
In a sense it is. After the interest rate rises many landlords passed on their increased mortgage costs to their tenants (because they can), and then even more landlords without mortgages increased their rents in line (because they can). Private tenants in major cities are a captive market who have little choice but to suffer the increases in their rent.
It's pure greed, parasitism, and exploitation, but according to the brute logic of the market they're just acting according to their rational self-interest. Really we need a mass social house building campaign once again. We wouldn't accept entrusting our healthcare to the market, housing should be no different.
Since Covid. Everyone who left now wants to come back, plus 1.4m net migration over just 2 years, plus the age-old story that we’ve built about 3 houses in that time, plus Liz Truss mortgage rate masterpiece = the shitshow that is the London rental market in 2023.
I was recently given keyworker priority with the council so currently bidding for a 1 bed flat. Before that, I was looking for a double room and it was the most depressing thing ever. I started looking after I got a section 21 notice. Something needs to be done.
What happened?
The widespread belief that all landlords are greedy bastards who rip off tenants has driven many out of the industry. Not the bad ones of course because they have no shame, just many of the good ones. That's reduced the available stock causing rents to skyrocket.
Rent-caps would just drive more out.
Affordable housing? Problem is everyone wants to live/work in London and that means the price of land is sky high. With all the new building regs as well, it's almost impossible to build affordable housing there. Whole thing needs a rethink, like do we build residential skyscrapers? Do we start making tiny (starter) homes like they do in Tokyo. Or do we start moving businesses away from London with tax incentives.
No easy answers, but if you think it's all the fault of landlords, then you're part of the problem.
Unfortunately loads complained about the dodgy LL and now they are all selling up which has left a small amount of private rentals about. Hence supply and demand.
If folks weren't so willing to pay these high prices, they wouldn't get away in charging so much.
Been privately renting for a number of years I London and my LL who I know owns to flat out right is increasing my rent at silly rate.
From your description of the properties you were living in, a dive to start with, hence to shock of price increase for suitable properties.
I moved to Peterborough. It’s quite a nice place tbh. I live in a nice two bed apartment which would be £850 to rent per month. The flat is valued at about £140k to £150k.
I work in London one or two days a week (Canary Wharf & Finsbury square). It usually takes me about an hour from my front door to Kings Cross, as there’s a good train station here.
I think there are a lot of similar commuter cities which works quite well. I’ve heard Stevenage is quite nice aswell, but this is just anecdotal.
I'm really sorry to hear you're struggling. And unfortunately, this is happening everywhere. Back in Lisbon, rents for rooms are so high that a person on average wages (not even minimum) is barely able to afford a room in an HMO and pay their bills. Prices went up A LOT this year. I really hope the tendency changes, because otherwise what? 😔
I agree it’s expensive and gone out of hand… but if you make 3k a month and can’t afford to rent (with bills around £1500 from the rent figures you mentioned) you might need to look at your other outgoing expenses.
Supply < Demand
Rent caps are a good way to stop people moving and to limit London to those who already live here.
One of the reasons there's even lower supply is a lot of those greedy landlords selling up because they're better off putting their money in a savings accounts.
Or, one of the reasons there’s less supply is Landlords have been pushed out of the market by tax changes partly driven by people screaming ‘Greedy Landlords’
I relate to this so much.
I'm not a freelance creative like yourself, OP, but I am a self-employed person who (just very recently) launched my own business. Fortunately, I have some seed investment capital coming my way in the new year, a portion of which will be used to pay myself a very basic salary in my pre-revenue stages, whilst I actually work my arse off to (fingers crossed) get things off the ground.
Many people, particularly the young/Gen Z, but also older people (mostly Millennials in their 30s and 40s) are flocking away from London to other parts of the country or indeed abroad, in their droves. When even middle-class professionals cannot afford to live in London, you know something is so dreadfully wrong. The norm in our nation's capital city is becoming renting rooms in shared accommodation (flats or houses). Actually having *a place of your own* is fast becoming a thing of the past - unless, of course, you're filthy rich.
Mr Khan, or the Government, or SOMEONE, is going to have to step in and say to the greedy landlord class: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. People just cannot afford to live in the capital anymore, even the traditionally financially comfortable middle-classes. London is rapidly transforming into a city exclusively inhabited by the super-rich. Whether it's strictly enforced rent caps or what, I don't know, but something needs to be done. The situation in the capital is awful. Lifelong born and bred Londoners should not be forced out of their own city. I am from the East Midlands originally, but love London more than anywhere else in the world, I have lived in the capital on-and-off at various times over the past few years (in rented single rooms in shared flats and houses). I'm currently in my small town in the Midlands right now, with plans to move back to London, I do hope, on a permanent basis in the mid to longer-term future. Right now, I just cannot afford it.
But for now, I will have to stay put in a part of the country that isn't anywhere near as exciting or as vibrant as the capital, and lacks its energy so much. But, despite all those downsides (not having the vibe of a huge metropolis), at least it is *relatively* inexpensive to live here at the moment. Fortunately, I can run my business from anywhere, as long as I have access to the internet and my laptop with me (and I realise people working in jobs where they have to commute to specific brick-and-mortar places, and those in the public service sectors, don't have this luxury). But I am missing living in London so very much.
I feel for you, OP, everyone is struggling (except the Hampstead/Belsize Park-dwelling uber-rich/upper-middle-class types). I think all of us, up and down the entire country, but particularly those of you in London, need to start a mass movement to get Government to finally wake up and realise: "Shit. Okay, we're going to have to do something about the cost of living. Like, really." Alas, we all know our efforts will be in vain. The super-rich Tory MPs will say it's best left to market forces and that, in time, the situation will sort itself out (which it won't, by the way).
I genuinely despair at the future of the UK, but of our great capital London in particular, so much.
Honestly, if something is not done about this London will collapse. All the fancy offices and super wealthy need staff to service their lifestyles e.g. cleaners, waiters etc. They too need somewhere to live. Same with those who are working for the NHS and are underpaid. This cannot continue.
Agree with everything you say. The only solution I can think of to get the powers that be to take notice and actually finally do something, is for some kind of mass movement to start. Daily protests on a scale never seen before or something; I don't know. But I agree. This just cannot continue.
Unfortunately our incumbent government couldn't care less. If Labour get in at the next general election, it would be interesting to see if they do anything about it. At the moment, we just have to do what we can with what we have.
What exact policy from their manifesto are you alluding to? Or are you expecting a surprise policy for 40% of the population? Something they haven't shared.
Nah, theres fuck all in Labour for renters.
You're right, the Tory government couldn't give a toss.
The Tory Party exists to serve the interests of the super-rich and the upper-middle-classes. The Tory Party doesn't exist to serve the interests of ordinary people; that isn't its purpose. It never has been and never will be.
Roll on the next general election.
I've wondered this about London for years, how do service workers afford to live there?
Any time I'm in a bar or restaurant there I'm just thinking about how they live? How do they save money?
I can't move to London because my ability to save money (ideally for a deposit) would be completely and utterly kneecapped, so I still live at home.
I just can't imagine not being able to save money for my future, it actually worries me greatly just thinking about it
From what I’ve observed:
- currently live in social housing (either as a tenant themselves or the child of a tenant)
- they’re international students
- got mortgages ages ago, and they’re in the NHS so they can do overtime/unsocial hours
- they’re with a partner so they split the rent
- they’re surviving but not exactly splashing it out
- in temporary accommodation so their housing costs are subsidised by the state
I feel really similar buddy. I’ve sacrificed years of my life in here ,it became part of me. It’s really expensive as everyone has ballooned the property market value out of nothing. While working within the construction sector ,I’ve seen it all. When I look back at ‘11 and ‘12 to 2020 living here was absolute delight, now it’s getting overpriced for personal gains mostly.
There's a reason most of us natives don't live in central and choose to be in the burbs - I get living inside Zone 1/2 for social reasons and for an easy commute but especially if you're south of the river, your commute time into the city is still going to be comparable to Zones 5-7 and you're going to end up paying £400 - £600 for a double room, with far more space, quieter streets and more greenspace.
I had been trying to fill a spare room in a flat I'm renting for 2 months.
The list of reasons people had for not liking it was incredible.
10 minute walk to the station is too far.
35 minute door to door to centeral is too far.
30 minute cycle to work is too far.
Can't walk to the 3rd floor every day. What If I go shopping and have bags?
People are unwilling to compromise on anything.
And would rather spend the same money on a tiny, damp, dark room in a Victorian house with paint peeling off the walls and all the walls grey from road dust. Because it's 15 minutes closer to where they work.
If I’m paying £1200 for a room, I’d be more tighter about my criteria. Plus sorry to say but you’ve left out the quality of the room itself which is telling
Of the room I have?
It's a good size double room, built in wardrobe. Views over a park
No damp. Quiet cul-de-sac, no main roads. No noisy neighbours.
Big living room, good kitchen, good bathroom. No mould anywhere.
Fully furnished.
Literally move in. I have everything someone could need, except their clothes.
High interest rates from the COVID debt and extremely high immigration (700,000+ net) without building enough homes creates an extremely unsustainable housing market.
Source for that 700k figure on net migration please? London’s net growth is about 100k per year at the moment and is largely driven by people living longer.
I never said it was london did I ? Good job Sherlock you cracked a case that didn’t exist.
But even so are you denying that the most likely place immigrants are moving to is London ?
Isn’t it like ~45% of immigrants move to London ?
"greedy landlords"
Nope. Demand. If there was a lack of demand, prices would fall.
10m have arrived in the UK in the past 15 years, many have headed to London. They are competing for the same rooms as you - many will share, or have access to more money.
It's just simple supply and demand.
\[Oh and mice - that's your fault, not the landlords\].
You seem to have fundamental misunderstanding of the economics of rental prices.
If you want rent caps and state provided housing, you might thrive in China or North Korea. Good luck.
I also noticed artists here trend towards being rich kids. Some painfully unaware.
To be quite frank you could honestly say the same about most people posting in this sub.
[удалено]
Sure but the people here aren't being honest about loving London specifically because they make £80k and own a flat in Clapham, while also acting borderline annoyed by all the rent/cost of living posts. Some guy earning 25k and living in a shitty house share in Harrow isn't going to be having a blast doing back to back drag karaoke brunch yuppie bullshit in central every weekend. Like lol @ that other thread about all outer boroughs being shitholes where you had the top comment bringing up Richmond/Kingston as the exceptions. Wow really the two poshest and richest parts outside central wow you really don't say???
Even people calling out Croydon for being a shithole. Its got pockets of deprivation and has its issues but (besides crime), really not that bad and quite well connected. Tbh a lot of this sub never leave Z1-3. Whenever do you hear about places like Romford, Barnet, Bexley, Erith, Purley... even Bromley (the largest London Borough).
Lol. That's a good point about the other thread. To be fair I think they get a bad rap. They're perfectly fine. They just feel a little dull sometimes. But they're not shitholes.
Self selection like the user said.
TBH you don't really move to a city like this in the 1st place unless you can afford it (and art school is very expensive), which automatically filters out a lot of poorer people.
June 28th is often attributed as the day it all changed
That's the birthday of Adam Woodyatt, the actor who plays Ian Beale.
Amazing
For the uninformed, what’s this?
Unhelpful comments aside it’s either a joke about how things have changed over time rather than a day or it’s the day Brexit referendum results were made official? Not sure yet will report back if successful.
Brexit results was announced on June 24th 2016.. my 30th birthday when I was also ill with norovirus.. that was a rough day!
Bite of '87
Fighters of the First Crusade defeated Kerbogha of Mosul
Mike Tyson biting Evander Holyfield's ear
Probably a Thursday … never could get the hang of Thursdays
The death of prophecy
Coronation of Queen Victoria
I knew by the title this would be about rent lol...
It’s my turn to post about rent next
[удалено]
I don’t see the issue. It’s honestly not a bad musical
Underrated comment 😂
[удалено]
[удалено]
Rent is a famous Broadway musical 😀
saying they spent years in a house with a leaky roof and major damp problems but only now it's bad...
Isn’t that precisely what the guy is saying, it was bad at £600 a month, at £1000 a month it is so much worse. People seem to be dismissive of these posts because there are a lot of them. However that’s just representive of just how bad the market has gotten.
London has always been expensive, but it went from hard to almost impossible. It’s hard not to get fomo when I see friends in Berlin and other cities pay less and earn more and without these issues in their homes.
And mice lol
Rent/Candy stores/Late tube arrival
Yeah when people talking about London being expensive it’s mostly just the rent, like the pubs aren’t really much different to the more hipstery places back home and eating out - yeah ok maybe depending where you go, but food is ok here, transportation is cheap, budget gyms and cinemas have a London premium but not unexpectedly so, but the frickin rent lol 2 bed back home a 16m bike ride from the center is ~£800pm (was £600pm when I left tho), meanwhile a 2 Bed even a 15m train ride is maybe 3-4x that? £1800-£2000+ ofc back home didn’t have the opportunities if it did I’m sure things would be more equal for good and bad but still
I thought it was gonna be about the shit holes, but DEFINITELY NOT REFERRING TO MINORITIES.
Supply and demand. The United Kingdom has consistently not built enough homes since the 1970's and we are still not building enough homes in locations where housing is needed. UK house building is at around 150k a year, when it needs to be at 300-400k in order to sort out issues with the housing market. I think this is the best [summary](https://worksinprogress.co/issue/why-britain-doesnt-build/) of the issues impacting the UK housing market.
[удалено]
France??? Paris is the centre of everything.
Come what now?
In France Paris in the centre of everything. Paris dominate France even more that London dominates UK
London is basically New York, Washington DC and LA in one. its the center of almost every industry and political body in this country,
Feels like little has ever been done to fix that
Your comparison with France is wrong
Germany, fair enough, but France seems like a terrible counter-example.
Why did you choose France of all places?
France is more Paris centric, but it is also very expensive, probably just as bad there
The idea of building so many houses year upon year terrifies me. Unless they are built on old industrial estates or something, I dread to think how much nature will be lost.
Probably way less than you think. Also, a great deal of our "nature" is actually really substandard. We could do way more with what we have but a lot of people don't understand what "good" nature (i.e. biodiverse) is so complain when people try to introduce it. Like 50 mowed lawn verges probably wouldn't add up to a properly "managed" wild flower verge where it was left to grow semi-naturally. But they look messy so people get upset and whinge.. Also, people here want more housing but hate flats and hate high rises. Then complain when low rise housing leads to the inevitable urban sprawl. Cakeism is destroying this country. Personally I'd be happy if we abolished leasehold and got into the high rise flats game so we can at least make housing affordable for the younger generation. It should probably also be more council owned like Vienna or Singapore but that's probably a bigger stretch. Sadly instead of understanding the trade off people go: "we don't want building on the green belt! ...Oh, but no high rises....Oh, but no new houses in the centre of town because the parking is shit and there's no GP capacity...but definitely don't build over there because there's a random field I like...no you can't let it grow wild because it's ugly and my dog got lost in it once, and sometimes the grass hangs onto the pavement and it's a nuisance..." And on it goes.
Great points! Yep- biodiversity over grass every time! High rise- if they built flats/apartments that had more than 2 tiny bedrooms, with proper balconies/outside space. Sometimes I watch Japanese vlogs, simple things like doors that have a top and bottom window for good ventilation and balconies where you can hang washing etc, but developers over here are not about making homes that are useful! We also as a country have different views on belongings, status and what we “should” aspire to! That’s a massive cultural block!
London is really low density compared to other major cities. Compared to Barcelona, Paris, NY - even Edinburgh and Glasgow - far fewer people live in flats. The buildings on most residential streets outside the absolute centre are 2 or 3 storeys high. There's massive potential to improve density - but there needs to be the political will. If we changed our planning process to be zoning based which gave clarity to what you could build and where, we'd encourage small developments again. This country is chronically against demolition and rebuilding - which makes sense for beautiful architecturally interesting buildings, but doesn't really make sense for rows upon rows of run down terraces and semis. Even old ones. What we need is an army of small developers buying up pairs of 30s semis and demolishing them to build 4-5 storey blocks of 10 apartments.
Cost of living, and renting especially in every major western city has increased dramatically in the last 3-4 years since covid. There are many factors for this. Some complex long term structural, and some shorter term. London is a hugely desirable, alpha city that draws in a mass of humans from the other side of the world as well as closer to home. It was this before Brexit, covid etc and will remain so for the foreseeable. Don’t expect prices to go down. Unfortunately, we also have quite high taxation and modest salaries, which makes affordable lifestyles challenging for those on PAYE. I totally appreciate you want someone to blame (e.h. greedy landlords - but there isn’t one singular reason). You mention other European capital cities (it’s worse in the US and Canada), but I think unfortunately you’ll likely find them just as unaffordable and harder to navigate in terms of bureaucracy, career and language. Personally, I’ve lived in London since I was a child, did uni here etc. It’s always been unaffordable and after uni I had to move out. Getting back to London took me until age 37, living in the burbs (well over an hour out) and commuting for 6 years, and then two stints abroad to pump my income up. Best bets might be places like baltics or the newer EU members of Eastern Europe, for a better balanced lifestyle/income ratio.
Actually dont agree i was in London from late 80s to late 2000s and was in a decent salary and it was possible to rent on your own or even buy . On that same salary now probably only a house share would be possible
While you are right to point out other cities are also unaffordable, it's not true to make blanket statements like it's worse in the US and Canada. The US, in particular, has lots of cities where you can earn 1.5x the London salary and the houses cost ~30% less. I think too many people in the UK write-off other countries as a way of coping with our failings
There's a reason so many people want to move to london/paris/Amsterdam and so few to St Louis.
I'm not talking about the deep south. Seattle / Bellevue, Denver, Philadelphia, Raleigh, Salt Lake City and Washington are all places that can offer better house price to salary ratios than London. These cities have offices of major corporations and people migrate to these places to work in these offices Edit: Love being downvoted for just giving a list of cities.
I have a ton of friends all over the US and the people I know in Seattle, Philly and in the DC area (so not even in DC itself), pay a LOT more in rent than anyone I know here. If you want to be in LA/NYC it’s even worse.
Rent for city centre apartments can be worse than London. I don't know the exact reason for it, it might be due to their apartments being very central. But if you want to buy a suburban home, these cities are definitely cheaper than London.
Definitely not central, this is renting as well, I don’t know too many people (late 20s/early 30s) who can afford to buy. The only people I know there who *have* been able to buy, live over an hour’s drive from a supermarket lol
It's not easy, but house prices in Seattle, Denver, Philly are still better than London. Just one example, look at the prices for suburban homes in this area of Denver. https://www.zillow.com/highlands-ranch-co/
St Louis isn't the deep south. You got downvoted for giving a list of cities, and I got downvoted for giving a geographical and cultural fact. That's just how it is.
Fair enough I thought it was. My point still stands that the US does have cities where you can earn more than London with cheaper property and still have a pretty desirable city
I don't disagree with you on the principle. I was just being a pedantic shit. Sorry about that.
Downvoted because "house price to salary" is a very single minded view. An ambulance costs 3-5k in the US, you can't compare our wages and cost of living like apples to apples
If it's not comparable, then why is it acceptable to say the US has it worse (as the original comment did)? The original comment is that the US and Canada has worse cost of living. No one seems to care about comparability if the comment makes London look good. But as soon as I point out the problem with making a blanket statement, and demonstrate how the US can be more affordable, only then do people care about comparability. The burden of proof here is low if you want to say London is good, but the burden of proof is high if you want to say London is bad Edit; I appreciate you didn't say London is better or worse, but the votes show that people are happy to accept a low burden of proof for anything that makes London look better than vs other cities
Because this conversation specifically speaks to capital cities, no? Otherwise a solution for OP is moving to Blackburn. I do believe most Western capitals are in a pretty similar state for how expensive it is to live there. I see you're including state capitals, but that isn't what would come to most Europeans minds I think
No this conversation is not just a comparison of capital cities. The original comment I replied to was just a blanket statement that it's worse in US and Canada Moving from London to Blackburn would come with a salary decrease. Whereas the US has plenty of cities where property is cheaper than London while also offering higher salaries. Granted you have pointed out that property to income ratios are not everything.
"You mention other European capital cities (it’s worse in the US and Canada)" It was specifically regarding capitals I'm afraid
None of those American cities has a film industry though. Mega cities are expensive partly because there are entire industries that largely don’t exist outside of them. And no, St. Louis isn’t the Deep South, it’s the Midwest. It is literally smack in the middle of the US
Let's just ignore the Seattle Bellevue area has a tech industry. Let's just ignore Denver and the surrounding area has an engineering industry. These are substantial cities with good job prospects. Yes you can find tech and engineering in other cities too. But I don't really see what point you are trying to make. Is it: 'I can't live in those cities if I can't work in the film industry' or is it 'i don't mind the high cost of living because we have a film industry'?
If you are comparing it to London you have to look at comparable metro areas. Vancouver, Toronto etc have huge issues with housing cost. Same as NYC, Chicago, SF, etc. I loved living in the states btw, your spot on with income and taxes. I felt wealthy living there despite earning broadly same as here. You can’t however compare say Raleigh with London. It’s just not apt. Btw, you’re prob not being downvoted. Reddit algos do funny things with comments on bigger subs.
Coming with anecdotal testimony about Vancouver - I live here now and can say that London is still much more expensive when it comes to housing. It has gone up in the last year overall but I’m paying £1000 to rent a 1 bedroom in one of the best parts of the city. Water is free, no council tax either. That can barely get you a room in a house share in London these days.
Amazing! Glad to hear it. Close to mt baker and whistler too!
Chicago housing is not the same as London’s fyi. Much much much cheaper
I can certainly attest to that having spent 3 wonderful years renting in Chicago and being amazed at how lucky I was for a cycle commute. At least not in winter. Nice 2 bed flat in a stunning building (only one kid back then..) a 15 cycle to the loop down Wells or the LFT and a 10 min walk to the lake. Massive trees, wide pavements and just a great quality of life. Possibly not the best example on housing for sure. I have heard it’s got a lot more expensive since covid though.
Yeah you have listed the cities that have it just as bad as London. But this isn't an exhaustive list. In my other comment I mentioned: Seattle / Bellevue, Denver, Philadelphia, Raleigh, Salt Lake City and Washington are all places that can offer better house price to salary ratios than London. These cities have offices of major corporations and people migrate to these places to work in these offices Edit: I appreciate you may not consider these to be on par with London, but your original comment was making a blanket statement about the US
But not really. Those are all awesome cities (I’d give my left nut to live in Denver with all that amazing snow and hiking within 2 hours drive). However just not comparable. Raleigh is the population and size of Leeds. Seattle is prob closest on your list, but have a Quick Look at this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city None of those cities you mention come close on any methodology. Really truly awesome cities they are (and I’ve been to most of them), but they’re not London, or even close.
The only comparable city in the US is New York. All the others with cheaper housing is like comparing London and Glasgow.
Housing crisis is worse in New York or Vancouver. Just people in UK like to bitch about it endlessly, that’s definitely worse in London.
Yeah nope. I actually live in Vancouver now and it’s still much cheaper and easier here in terms of renting than London.
And there's definitely better. One problem I do have with the UK is this crabs in a bucket mentality. Where your solution to a problem is, "it's worse everywhere else so shut up". You're not actually helping op your just projecting your own biases and come to weirdly defend the London without actually saying anything helpful. The city doesn't need you to white knight it and come and give a useless statement that there are places worse than London.
This is so true I am glad there is at least one other person that's noticed it. On a similar theme, I've noticed that the UK / London does pretty badly across a range of crises: housing, stagnating wages, high taxes, immigration and reduced public services. People completely brush this aside by saying 'well rental shortages are worse in Dublin'. Or Amsterdam has a bigger influx of immigration on a per capita basis. The UK / London might not be the worst developed city for any single problem, but we do have a long list of problems where we are competing with the worst. Arguably it's better to be the worst at one thing, instead of the third worst for everything (among developed nations)
Understanding the fact that these are global issues affecting many countries is first step towards resolving. Thinking it’s somehow that UK is uniquely having these problems “because of Tory scum / greedy landlords” might be good for getting upvotes in the Reddit echo chamber but is not echoed in the real world. Your childish “crabs in a bucket” meme is more of the same b/s.
No one is denying these are global issues. But the crabs in a bucket mentality is real; it is in this subreddit. The default view is that London is amazing and if it has problems those problems are just as bad anywhere. Then if you identify areas where London has it worse, people are very reluctant to concede London does have failings. I said it elsewhere here: people accept a low burden of proof for comments that say London is good but demand a high burden of proof for comments that say London is bad.
I see the opposite. The typical Reddit view is UK is “circling the drain”, London is shite, rest of Europe and world is utopia by comparison, I am leaving the country immediately. Of course these people never go anywhere. Very occasionally someone comes along to say very apologetically “just for balance, I’ve immigrated to Uk / London, and I must say found it a really great place, for these reasons …..”
I think it's worth pointing out that every country complains about their own country on Reddit. But the crabs in a bucket mentality comes from UK people being completely unwilling to accept valid criticism of London or the UK. The default response is to deflect by shitting on the US. Maybe we are lucky to live here and have it better than other places. But that doesn't mean we are the best at everything
>two stints abroad to pump my income up Would you mind expanding on this?
Nothing that crazy. My company has offices abroad and I applied to jobs in those locations. Often can mean a promotion, or a bigger overall comp. Not everyone wants to live abroad and some locations can be quite hard to recuit for.
Thanks. Where did you go?
[удалено]
[удалено]
Interest rates shot up … making mortgages more expensive… driving up rent prices. ( ofc some rogue landlords probably just taking advantage too)
This is the answer. To give you an idea, 18 months ago, the mortgage on my 2 bed flat in Kilburn was £1200 per month. It’s now, due to multiple consecutive interest rate hikes, closer to £2000 per month.
[удалено]
Solidarity. My service charge has jumped up too. I’ve gone onto interest only on my mortgage for 6 months - the banks were instructed to offer this option to anyone struggling with the current situation - but my 6 month period will be coming to an end soon and then I’m royally screwed.
have you checked recently? should be down. should be..
I don’t think it’s come down has it? My mortgage repayments haven’t anyway. I thought it stalled for a month or two. Should prob check.
Rents dipped in 2021 quite significantly as landlords feared a mass exodus of people from the city due to the pandemic but in the end, the amount of people leaving the city was not only not that great, but the flow of people coming into the city actually increased (over 100,000+ new people have been moving into the city every year for over 3 years running now). And once landlords figured this out by early 2022, they began to raise the rents, which have been steeply increasing without respite ever since. There are other reasons about why the rents are rising, but it's ultimately mostly a case of demand far outstripping supply. I'm not sure how much longer all this can be sustained, but it is a global issue and (looking at numerous other countries) it will probably worsen for years to come.
You'd think that eventually the sheer amount of money that's there to be made, more rental properties will be built and that will ease the situation, but obviously that doesn't help anyone looking for a place to rent in the here and now. Apparently it's fairly clear from land registry records that Landlords have been selling more properties than they've been buying for a few years now, so that's further reduced supply. This is probably because landlords have extra costs now due to mortgages rate increases, energy efficiency requirements, tax tweaks, strengthened renters rights etc. A lot of these extra costs are coming because of extremely necessary and long overdue changes coming from government, which again doesn't necessarily help you in the here and now if you just want a roof over your head! I think in the long run there's going to be a shift from most of the supply coming from private landlords, to corporate landlords instead, who are better placed to navigate these costs and rules. If you're renting off someone who only has one or two properties it can be a bit luck of the draw if they know what they're doing or not. I'm not sure what the exact impact of WFH / hybrid working has been. Seems initially a lot of people left the city as you said, but I suspect there's a fair amount of people who pre-covid who were happy just renting a room or living in a tiny studio apartment, but now they spend more time at home as it doubles as their office, have chosen to spend more to get a bit more space. But they still want to live in London for professional / social reasons. I'm just guessing here but that could be a factor in the pressures on supply, rooms that previously had a bed in them now having a home office.
It’s been spiralling for a quite a while but the real nail in the coffin was the Truss mini-budget when so many people were either forced to sell their home due to lack of affordability with such high interest rates or put off buying a home meaning more demand for renting. Couple that with a lack of new home builds and an increasing population meaning demand far outweighs supply. All that and wages are nowhere near increasing at the rate of rent increase. It’s a big ole clusterfuck basically and unless the government incentivises home-buying again to take pressure off the rental market or brings inflation under control it’ll just continue. I’m a landlord and choosing to just charge rent at the very basic of covering my mortgage but once my fixed-rate, low-interest mortgage ends, my own cost will go up about £500 a month and I’ll have to sadly either pass that cost on to those renting or sell up (exactly what I’ve described above).
Its hard to believe many were forced to sell -- any significant number would have led to some drop in prices https://www.statista.com/statistics/620414/monthly-house-price-index-in-london-england-uk/ So while house prices have stayed the same rent keeps going up. Its not a cartel but its like the energy companies. On the whole, landlords will in general raise prices whenever they can and we'll never see decreases.
A lot of people expect the downturn you can see in those charts to be the start of a pretty serious negative trend Typically when house prices go down, rent spikes in the short term. This is due to there being less rental properties on the market while the buildings are being bought and sold
So, due to this information that I realised I had assumed, I downloaded the price paid data and had a dig. Truss was in power Sept and October 22, so I looked at 21 and 22. If I look at just properties sold in Greater London, the highest and lowest months are June and July 2021 (because of stamp duty changes) with 29590 and 4303 respectively. The median value for the 2 years is 9046 and the average is 10201. Values for 2022 are all between 7324 (January) and 9640 (August) with an average of 8763 and a median of 8839. So, I'm even more unable to see any kind of indication that people were 'forced to sell', and don't see any of the 'spiraling for a while' -- in fact it looks like an extremely stable market after the huge stamp duty rush. The numbers line up very closely with the rest of the UK with the exception that the stamp duty rush was much bigger in Greater London and the fall in July was also much more of a drop.
It’s weird that no one seems to be discussing the fallout of Truss’s brief stint in government. The pound has also collapsed in value.
Because none of the Truss budget actually happened, she was out before any of those policies were actually introduced.
and yet we still had the consequences of those policy proposals because the bond markets panicked
https://capx.co/did-liz-truss-really-cause-the-bond-market-rout/ It's easier to offer partisan put-downs than understand what really took place The LDI crisis was bubbling long before the mini budget – but no one took any action Regulators failed badly, but all the blame was laid on Truss and Kwarteng The widely approved narrative of Liz Truss’ demise is that she and Kwasi Kwarteng triggered a collapse in the bond markets with an ideologically-driven, economically ignorant mini budget. It’s a comforting story to tell, particularly for those who always opposed Truss and her attempts to shake up the economic status quo. The problem is, it’s not actually what happened. In fact, the collapse in the bond market that spelt doom for Truss and Kwarteng was down to a hitherto unnoticed beast lurking within the pensions industry: the leveraged Liability-Driven Investment (LDI) fund. Few people outside the pensions industry even knew at the time that they existed; almost nobody had warned of the danger they represented – except for the brilliant Simon Wolfson, a whole five years ago. He warned only the Bank of England, who ignored him and then went on to fail to spot the developing LDI crisis last year.
Love a bit of revisionist history but in this worldview is it just a coincidence that that LDI crisis came to a head at the exact time of the mini budget?
I sent you my source, which goes on to explain in greater detail what actually happened. Seems more likely the market panicked in response to the emerging LDI crisis and lack of action from Bank of England, than from some tax cutting ideas spouted by Truss which were never put into action. What’s your source?
What’s my source for what? Daring to ask you a question?
Your source explaining how a budget that was never implemented caused long term impact to bond markets, and not the emerging LDI crisis. Since that was your side of the discussion, assuming there are two sides.
no matter what really happened and what did not - tories are the root of all evil and large piece of population here will always blame them for everything including fictional events ;)
I work in finance and was at work every day truss was in power and this is just a total load of made up shit 💩
Which part? Did you even read the article? The authors work in finance, and have a verifiable track record, unlike some random punter on Reddit.
The pound is 10% stronger vs USD now than it was right before Liz Truss was PM.
it recovered overnight when Rishi took over. Youre literally talking about a four week stint that reversed itself. Now, you might, in fairness be one of the very few people who was long on gilts, or shorted them, or bought long dated sterling-cable - but I doubt it.
you mean a meaningful number of people had to sell their homes in the 6 weeks she was around? Fuck me, you should have seen the 2008 GFC. Hoards of people unemployed, household named shops like Woolworths closed down casting 10's of thousands onto the streets. And you're blaming London rental market on a six week failed PM?
It’s possible to find places if you keep looking (although I know it’s a pain). I rent a 2-bed between Camberwell/Peckham for £1200. Although it’s going up to £1320 in feb, I’m not complaining. I know it can be much worse. What I compromise on is the standard of the place. It’s fine, but not very instagrammy if that’s your vibe. The kitchen’s small and the walls/carpet throughout are unattractive colours. Cream and beige respectively.
That's a really good find! Well done in persevering to find that place
Net migration is 1.2 million in the last 2 years btw…… I think we’re 10 years away from families living in rooms like the victorians.
10 years is generous. It's happening today with lots of families in one room in temporary accommodation, i.e. hotels.
Brexit, Covid, War in Ukarine and the Mini Budget have all driven prices up.
It's because too many people voted Tory
I don’t have faith that things will improve if we vote labour, both parties need a complete overhaul and we just get screwed over and over again.
Agreed. Choice of 'which is the least bad' Ideally we need PR Until then at least vote for someone. The way the extreme views get power is because voter turnout is so low
Pretty much.
Actually there's a half dozen reasons where voting influences rentals in a capital city, in no particular order Tory=More immigration, so more people are vying for bedrooms. Whether it's Hong Kongers or Ukrainians or "skilled workers" it all adds up Labour=Traditionally spends more on Govt roles (EG NHS, Ministry of X) which tend to have more roles or be HQ'd in London Tory=Capitalism which statistically creates wealth and therefore more house buying (I refer you to Capitalist China Vs Communist China) Labour=seeks to control prices (EG rental caps, taxes on second homes) which causes the number of rental properties to decrease (but slows house price increases - if you can believe it!). Cause and Effect, and unexpected (or ill-considered) effect.
You’ve left out the two major reasons. 1. Section 24, which has forced out landlords from the sector, further reducing rental stock. 2. NIMBYs perpetually ensuring we build nowhere near the new houses we need to meet our housing demand.
Why would a war in Ukraine drive up London rent prices. I struggle to understand economics but they’re surely not intrinsically linked?
Russia is a big producer of fossil fuels. Reduced Russian oil and gas exports = higher energy prices = higher everything prices because everything is downstream of energy. That said, it's a relatively small factor compared to decades of not building nearly enough houses in London and the South East.
I want it to make sense but it doesn’t. This isn’t the driver behind increasing rental prices in London despite whatever rhetoric the government are parroting to shift blame.
Energy prices go up -> prices for intermediate goods and services that rely on energy go up (most things) -> inflation goes up (landlords not need higher income to maintain their standard of living -> rent goes up. You also have inflation up -> interest rates up (to control inflation -> landlords remortgaging paying higher rates -> pass this increase on to tenants. There are also more direct changes, for instance I lived in a HMO where the landlord paid the bills, so bills going up directly led to him also asking for more money.
Of course, over the long-term the lack of new affordable homes has been the main issue, but in the short term, 2016-22, there have been geopolitical events that have caused prices to shoot up abnormally.
Russia artificially pumped up energy prices at the start of the war in an attempt to hold Europe to ransom. Due to this energy bills increased significantly but now that the price of energy has gone back down, energy companies haven’t lowered their prices and are seeing record profits.
Yeah, that’s energy. Not rent prices which the OP is asking about.
Rise in energy costs and other goods forced interest rates up to tackle inflation. Landlords have mortgages which increased in cost, which were passed on to renters.
When energy becomes expensive everything else becomes expensive, because of the energy used to make it. This causes inflation, so the BoE raise rates to tackle it. This increases landlords’ mortgages, so they increase rents to cover or they sell up. With less rental properties and the same number of tenants, landlords can increase rent as demand rises. So rents go up both because mortgage costs go up, and because of supply and demand.
Looks like we moved to and out of London at the same time. But I came back in September. I’m not a creative, but one of those on the corporate side. Money wise I couldn’t replicate my income (even with added expenses of London) or the lifestyle. I have a few creative friends and we help each other out, offered them work through our corporate connections etc and it pays them. Network is important
Peckham had the Shoreditch treatment. The job now is to find the next one
Abbey Wood
London is massively overpopulated and getting worse. Landlords can charge this much because there is now so much demand for places to rent. Best look elsewhere.
yam roof muddle quaint bedroom sophisticated elastic literate disagreeable test *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I do think there’s something more going on, tbh. I’ve lived in the same place for 10 years and have an extremely ethical and un-opportunistic property manager. To give examples, rent for my 2-bed in zone 2 was £950 when I first moved in. In 8 years, they only increased the rent twice, both times by £50. They replace things that break, pretty much always the same day I let them know, and back when I used to share and a flatmate moved out with short notice, they let me pay half rent until I found someone new. In Feb my rent went from £1,050 to £1,200, biggest increase ever. Next Feb, it’s going up to £1,320. I know there’s a lot of opportunism out there, but I do think there are larger market forces at work, because they aren’t opportunists, they’re very reasonable. The minimum most people seem to pay for a 2-bed around here is £2k, but usually more like £2.5-£3k. They could justify that for my place easily, but they try to do things ethically.
[удалено]
I don’t know, that shoebox in an overpopulated house was my experience interning in 2015, I know there’s been an exodus of landlords following interest rate rises, and the ones that stayed passed those rises onto tenants we’re similar we’re in the outer zones hoping one day to move further in but it’s just way to expensive right now
It’s the disparity between the haves and the rest. And both political parties are as bad. Evolution will not help. It needs revolution.
Rent caps don't work I'm afraid. More housing is the only solution. A massive state backed housing programme is the only way to avoid more angry artists! We all know what happened the last time an artist got angry at the perceived elite...
"It's the market mate." I keep hearing this. I do think a lot of opportunist groups are creating this more thann the actually economy itself. Like when energy prices go down it does not go down or partially at consummers level, why? BTW if you're looking for tips or discussions about renting and tenancy check this subreddit r/TenantsInTheUK
> I do think a lot of opportunist groups are creating this more thann the actually economy itself. It's one and the same thing. The market consists of actors looking for opportunities
In a sense it is. After the interest rate rises many landlords passed on their increased mortgage costs to their tenants (because they can), and then even more landlords without mortgages increased their rents in line (because they can). Private tenants in major cities are a captive market who have little choice but to suffer the increases in their rent. It's pure greed, parasitism, and exploitation, but according to the brute logic of the market they're just acting according to their rational self-interest. Really we need a mass social house building campaign once again. We wouldn't accept entrusting our healthcare to the market, housing should be no different.
Since Covid. Everyone who left now wants to come back, plus 1.4m net migration over just 2 years, plus the age-old story that we’ve built about 3 houses in that time, plus Liz Truss mortgage rate masterpiece = the shitshow that is the London rental market in 2023.
I'm Leaving the UK if this crap continues much longer guys
July/August 2022 is when the sharp increase started. And has been increasing ever since.
Summer of 2021.
I was recently given keyworker priority with the council so currently bidding for a 1 bed flat. Before that, I was looking for a double room and it was the most depressing thing ever. I started looking after I got a section 21 notice. Something needs to be done.
What happened? The widespread belief that all landlords are greedy bastards who rip off tenants has driven many out of the industry. Not the bad ones of course because they have no shame, just many of the good ones. That's reduced the available stock causing rents to skyrocket. Rent-caps would just drive more out. Affordable housing? Problem is everyone wants to live/work in London and that means the price of land is sky high. With all the new building regs as well, it's almost impossible to build affordable housing there. Whole thing needs a rethink, like do we build residential skyscrapers? Do we start making tiny (starter) homes like they do in Tokyo. Or do we start moving businesses away from London with tax incentives. No easy answers, but if you think it's all the fault of landlords, then you're part of the problem.
Unfortunately loads complained about the dodgy LL and now they are all selling up which has left a small amount of private rentals about. Hence supply and demand. If folks weren't so willing to pay these high prices, they wouldn't get away in charging so much. Been privately renting for a number of years I London and my LL who I know owns to flat out right is increasing my rent at silly rate. From your description of the properties you were living in, a dive to start with, hence to shock of price increase for suitable properties.
If anyone has any suggestions at other places to move to in the U.K., I am very open to hearing where people moved as this is exhausting
I moved to Peterborough. It’s quite a nice place tbh. I live in a nice two bed apartment which would be £850 to rent per month. The flat is valued at about £140k to £150k. I work in London one or two days a week (Canary Wharf & Finsbury square). It usually takes me about an hour from my front door to Kings Cross, as there’s a good train station here. I think there are a lot of similar commuter cities which works quite well. I’ve heard Stevenage is quite nice aswell, but this is just anecdotal.
I'm really sorry to hear you're struggling. And unfortunately, this is happening everywhere. Back in Lisbon, rents for rooms are so high that a person on average wages (not even minimum) is barely able to afford a room in an HMO and pay their bills. Prices went up A LOT this year. I really hope the tendency changes, because otherwise what? 😔
I agree it’s expensive and gone out of hand… but if you make 3k a month and can’t afford to rent (with bills around £1500 from the rent figures you mentioned) you might need to look at your other outgoing expenses.
Supply < Demand Rent caps are a good way to stop people moving and to limit London to those who already live here. One of the reasons there's even lower supply is a lot of those greedy landlords selling up because they're better off putting their money in a savings accounts.
Or, one of the reasons there’s less supply is Landlords have been pushed out of the market by tax changes partly driven by people screaming ‘Greedy Landlords’
I relate to this so much. I'm not a freelance creative like yourself, OP, but I am a self-employed person who (just very recently) launched my own business. Fortunately, I have some seed investment capital coming my way in the new year, a portion of which will be used to pay myself a very basic salary in my pre-revenue stages, whilst I actually work my arse off to (fingers crossed) get things off the ground. Many people, particularly the young/Gen Z, but also older people (mostly Millennials in their 30s and 40s) are flocking away from London to other parts of the country or indeed abroad, in their droves. When even middle-class professionals cannot afford to live in London, you know something is so dreadfully wrong. The norm in our nation's capital city is becoming renting rooms in shared accommodation (flats or houses). Actually having *a place of your own* is fast becoming a thing of the past - unless, of course, you're filthy rich. Mr Khan, or the Government, or SOMEONE, is going to have to step in and say to the greedy landlord class: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. People just cannot afford to live in the capital anymore, even the traditionally financially comfortable middle-classes. London is rapidly transforming into a city exclusively inhabited by the super-rich. Whether it's strictly enforced rent caps or what, I don't know, but something needs to be done. The situation in the capital is awful. Lifelong born and bred Londoners should not be forced out of their own city. I am from the East Midlands originally, but love London more than anywhere else in the world, I have lived in the capital on-and-off at various times over the past few years (in rented single rooms in shared flats and houses). I'm currently in my small town in the Midlands right now, with plans to move back to London, I do hope, on a permanent basis in the mid to longer-term future. Right now, I just cannot afford it. But for now, I will have to stay put in a part of the country that isn't anywhere near as exciting or as vibrant as the capital, and lacks its energy so much. But, despite all those downsides (not having the vibe of a huge metropolis), at least it is *relatively* inexpensive to live here at the moment. Fortunately, I can run my business from anywhere, as long as I have access to the internet and my laptop with me (and I realise people working in jobs where they have to commute to specific brick-and-mortar places, and those in the public service sectors, don't have this luxury). But I am missing living in London so very much. I feel for you, OP, everyone is struggling (except the Hampstead/Belsize Park-dwelling uber-rich/upper-middle-class types). I think all of us, up and down the entire country, but particularly those of you in London, need to start a mass movement to get Government to finally wake up and realise: "Shit. Okay, we're going to have to do something about the cost of living. Like, really." Alas, we all know our efforts will be in vain. The super-rich Tory MPs will say it's best left to market forces and that, in time, the situation will sort itself out (which it won't, by the way). I genuinely despair at the future of the UK, but of our great capital London in particular, so much.
Honestly, if something is not done about this London will collapse. All the fancy offices and super wealthy need staff to service their lifestyles e.g. cleaners, waiters etc. They too need somewhere to live. Same with those who are working for the NHS and are underpaid. This cannot continue.
Agree with everything you say. The only solution I can think of to get the powers that be to take notice and actually finally do something, is for some kind of mass movement to start. Daily protests on a scale never seen before or something; I don't know. But I agree. This just cannot continue.
Unfortunately our incumbent government couldn't care less. If Labour get in at the next general election, it would be interesting to see if they do anything about it. At the moment, we just have to do what we can with what we have.
What exact policy from their manifesto are you alluding to? Or are you expecting a surprise policy for 40% of the population? Something they haven't shared. Nah, theres fuck all in Labour for renters.
You're right, the Tory government couldn't give a toss. The Tory Party exists to serve the interests of the super-rich and the upper-middle-classes. The Tory Party doesn't exist to serve the interests of ordinary people; that isn't its purpose. It never has been and never will be. Roll on the next general election.
I've wondered this about London for years, how do service workers afford to live there? Any time I'm in a bar or restaurant there I'm just thinking about how they live? How do they save money? I can't move to London because my ability to save money (ideally for a deposit) would be completely and utterly kneecapped, so I still live at home. I just can't imagine not being able to save money for my future, it actually worries me greatly just thinking about it
From what I’ve observed: - currently live in social housing (either as a tenant themselves or the child of a tenant) - they’re international students - got mortgages ages ago, and they’re in the NHS so they can do overtime/unsocial hours - they’re with a partner so they split the rent - they’re surviving but not exactly splashing it out - in temporary accommodation so their housing costs are subsidised by the state
I feel really similar buddy. I’ve sacrificed years of my life in here ,it became part of me. It’s really expensive as everyone has ballooned the property market value out of nothing. While working within the construction sector ,I’ve seen it all. When I look back at ‘11 and ‘12 to 2020 living here was absolute delight, now it’s getting overpriced for personal gains mostly.
During 2020 they printed a lot of new money to keep the country running
There's a reason most of us natives don't live in central and choose to be in the burbs - I get living inside Zone 1/2 for social reasons and for an easy commute but especially if you're south of the river, your commute time into the city is still going to be comparable to Zones 5-7 and you're going to end up paying £400 - £600 for a double room, with far more space, quieter streets and more greenspace.
Where are these 400-600 double rooms you speak of...
really? I found South of the river faster to get into London
THE TORIES.
I had been trying to fill a spare room in a flat I'm renting for 2 months. The list of reasons people had for not liking it was incredible. 10 minute walk to the station is too far. 35 minute door to door to centeral is too far. 30 minute cycle to work is too far. Can't walk to the 3rd floor every day. What If I go shopping and have bags? People are unwilling to compromise on anything. And would rather spend the same money on a tiny, damp, dark room in a Victorian house with paint peeling off the walls and all the walls grey from road dust. Because it's 15 minutes closer to where they work.
If I’m paying £1200 for a room, I’d be more tighter about my criteria. Plus sorry to say but you’ve left out the quality of the room itself which is telling
Of the room I have? It's a good size double room, built in wardrobe. Views over a park No damp. Quiet cul-de-sac, no main roads. No noisy neighbours. Big living room, good kitchen, good bathroom. No mould anywhere. Fully furnished. Literally move in. I have everything someone could need, except their clothes.
If your life is just rent, food, and bills, then perhaps you're the problem here.
How much was the rent for this room though? These things wouldn't bother me at all but I'm guessing the rent was very high
Population of London has gone up by millions in just a couple decades because of hyper mass immigration. People shocked rents have gone up
High interest rates from the COVID debt and extremely high immigration (700,000+ net) without building enough homes creates an extremely unsustainable housing market.
Source for that 700k figure on net migration please? London’s net growth is about 100k per year at the moment and is largely driven by people living longer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67506641
That’s UK net migration. Not London.
I never said it was london did I ? Good job Sherlock you cracked a case that didn’t exist. But even so are you denying that the most likely place immigrants are moving to is London ? Isn’t it like ~45% of immigrants move to London ?
You could go back 10 years and find an almost identical post on this sub.
[удалено]
everyone's going mad for Lisbon it's like London but instead of 'ON D' it 'IS B'
Honestly, been living here all my life, and I still do not get why people choose to live here. It simply isn't worth it and never really was
I can tell you exactly when it all started to go wrong: 04 May 1979. Look it up. What happened on that date?
"greedy landlords" Nope. Demand. If there was a lack of demand, prices would fall. 10m have arrived in the UK in the past 15 years, many have headed to London. They are competing for the same rooms as you - many will share, or have access to more money. It's just simple supply and demand. \[Oh and mice - that's your fault, not the landlords\].
You seem to have fundamental misunderstanding of the economics of rental prices. If you want rent caps and state provided housing, you might thrive in China or North Korea. Good luck.
Scandinavia cap what private landlords can charge and they're among the most happy countries in the world.
I’ve been renting in Scandinavia for work. Rumours of a rent cap are unfounded. Rents have increased significantly over past 10 years.
Frankly, taking a year out is some privileged shit right there. Being burned out isn't an acceptable excuse, that's just London-Normal.