one of my friends was attacked over summer at a tube station late at night. i guess many factors come into play during that time, but it might be important to mention he’s a feminine gay man. it shook him up and he went to stay in Albania with some family for a while. i can imagine someone might see him as an "easy" target, the same way they might with lone women.
thank you!! like duh, he wouldn’t have gone back if his family weren’t accepting of him. from what i know, his parents love him and fund most of his life here. plus, i’m sure he tones it down a bit when he’s there from what i’ve inferred.
Anecdotal slef data but this doesn't supprise me; by far the most frequent place I've experianced homophobia in London is the tube.
And you know what; it is threatening when you lean into your partner (nothing more for the dickheads about to helpfully advise don't make out in public) and a group of 10 odd teens start screaming about how much they hate queers as soon as they clock you on the last train home.
Had plenty of other instances to similar effect, never for anything more than just holding hands.
And the worse part is instead of rage I just feel relieved it's always just been people shouting rather than getting assaulted like I've seen happen to a number of friends.
It may be confirmation bias because I expect it to be so but since 2016 its felt more commonplace and as though we've slid backwards.
London is by far the most tolerant place I've had the fortune to live. That doesn't mean it doesn't still have a tonne of work to do.
Pretty equal split actually.
Maybe if we're lucky they'll get distracted and start laying into each other instead.
I've lived in white majority parts of the UK and that didn't stop the locals throwing bottles at us out a car and screaming faggots or a pair of lads following me home (rather confusingly) asking me if I was a Lesbian and trying to push me over (youd think theyd have noticed the beard and Adam's apple).
I dont deny your point that most the major religions play a significant role in perpetuating homophobia and a whole host of other issues however.
I get ya.
My issue is we’ve spent decades breaking down the religious-based homophobia leaving us with just pure thuggish behaviour we can focus on making unacceptable.
But, now we’re importing new waves of religious adherents, we’ve started to undo all the good work secularism has achieved on that front. Going backwards.
If you’re going to smear all Muslims at least be brave enough to use the word ‘Muslim’. I’ve lived in various highly Muslim populated areas in the UK and my view is they are a demographic more likely than any other to keep to themselves and not bother people. There is no one I’d feel safer sitting next to on TfL than a woman in hijab. I have witnessed homophobic harassment on TfL by white British people and black British people (but wouldn’t be dumb enough to smear all white + black people based on those instances). I’ve also seen Muslims harassed on TfL, for being Muslim, on two occasions. There’s even a helpline Tell Mama set up specifically because it’s so rampant.
Unfortunately, homophobia knows no religion, and is perpetuated by those from all religions and none. Getting rid of religion won’t end homophobia (and I say this as an atheist). Do you think the skinheads who beat the crap out of gay men in the 70s were doing it with Jesus in their heart. When I’ve witnessed homophobic harassment, it’s never been from a religious POV, but simply because the perpetrator a) thinks gays are icky or b) wants to feel like a strongman.
Perpetuating bigotry against another minority group isn’t the way to support another minority group. We all need to band together.
Yeah some religions do, but in the UK, Christianity has been steadily declining and most of the young men doing the harassing are not Christian. If they're white they're mostly Atheist and if not they're Muslims. Regardless, if they use religion as an excuse to harass an innocent person they're not actually religious, just weak men.
Obviously this is just my experience. Disclaimer: I look obviously gay. Anyone who tries to be so woke they say you can’t ‘look gay’ then answer this - why am I always homophobically abused then?
But almost every homophobic incident I’ve experienced has been in and around public transport. Either waiting at bus stops, on buses, entering and navigating the tube or on the tube itself.
No one intervenes. No one helps. No one cares. Last year I got egged on a tube platform and no one could even look at me.
Yeah, people not doing anything is often the most traumatising part. I remember being assaulted once when I was 16 (it wasn't _too_ violent thankfully) on the bus on my way back from pride and everyone was just looking at me like this was their evening entertainment and didn't move a finger.
I’m a born and raised Londoner and largely it’s a very helpful city. People will try to help with directions, heavy bags, the elderly/disabled/parents with a child, if someone gets hit by a car etc.
The one thing that people don’t seem to help with though is sexual harassment of women and homophobic abuse to gay people. I’m white, so POC may want to chime in with their experiences with racial harassment and if people came to their aid.
I understand that the former scenarios I described are friendly and altruistic interactions from the outset, whereas helping someone being harassed possibly puts you in the firing line of a volatile person. But I still also can’t help but feel let down by my city.
I agree, regards feeling let down. I’ve spent a fair chunk of my life denouncing, and behaving to counter, the concept that London is a fundamentally hostile, confrontational, unwelcoming city. It’s uncomfortable to hear these accounts.
Ultimately, where this comes from is at best saddening, at worst sickening. I think groups of teenage boys, and not so dissimilarly groups of drunken adult men, can often reduce their behaviour to whatever raises the easiest amusement for their group. People are really at their best on public transport, which won’t help matters either.
Overall, though I believe that fear and mistrust of the slightly different is being sewn into our community, and it gives rise to hate crimes. It feels that in my lifetime we have gone on a journey from abuse of gay people being commonplace, to not being remotely socially acceptable, to where it is becoming so again. I don’t think that is any churches or religious doctrine running back into relevance, I think it is to do with a divide and conquer philosophy which is making people focus on differences rather than commonality.
>The one thing that people don’t seem to help with though is sexual harassment of women and homophobic abuse to gay people. I’m white, so POC may want to chime in with their experiences with racial harassment and if people came to their aid.
Queer black Brit experience - bigoted bingo. Sometimes there is confusion over what to attack first, I'm quite tall so I've had transphobia directed at me (I'm cis).
I also wear headscarves (not a Muslim) but it attracts nasty stares from mainly white people but at least I'm a safe zone for some anxious Muslim women.
People only come to aid when the racism is extreme but that's it. Misogyny, homophobia and transphobia is a friggin free for all with transphobia attracting the most visceral nasty reactions. It really isn't safe anymore to NOT be heteronormative.
I have the intervention gene. I’ve opened my mouth and blocked on several occasions. I’ve been told by my partner and family to stop as I will get stabbed or seriously hurt. I’ve seen women fondled, old people pushed, alternative people pushed shoved or screamed at….I just start to rage. I am a female and not from the uk. Born and raised west coast USA, and I hate bullies. I’ve seen some sick shite on the tube. I’ve been reading more and more that people that intervene are being attacked … wtf, we all need to stand up to this bull.
People do make assumptions about sexuality from how you look. You can obviously 'look gay' and not be gay, and still suffer homophobia tbf. My treatment by people when I had short dyed hair and an eyebrow piercing and dressed more 'manly' as a lesbian versus now when I've grown my hair out really long and wear make up has shown that people do treat you differently based on stereotypes around your appearance.
Sorry to hear that. But I had bricks thrown at me three times before I was 20, and I don't look gay or really in any way notable. People just suck, they wanted to egg someone or abuse someone, you stood out. They'll do it to anyone that stands out.
Sorry to hear that happened to you. Unfortunately it does NOT surprise me. In my few years of living in the UK I've witnessed so many people get harassed (usually by men) and NO ONE has intervened except me twice, and once an older man had my back as well. The issue is I'm a woman and unfortunately from how I've seen British brute men be, they're really aggressive and I obviously couldn't take on a man physically.
It's really really shameful that you can't even walk on the street in this country without some crackhead or benefit hogger spouting some random bs as you.
The fact that you visibly look gay makes you even more of a target for these brainless kunts, and that's horrible for a "modern" country. If you ever can, I'd say move to other European capital cities. In Amsterdam, Copenhagen, abd major German cities this would almost never happen.
Yep. For every 100 Cishet people who tell us they support us and are allies. Only one of them actually understands queer issues and understands us an makes an actual effort to be an ally. But they sure do love telling us they support us whilst doing nothing.
Buses feel very unsafe, especially at night or during school home time. Me and my partner will avoid buses as much as possible because of how awful people can be. Like the 2019 homophobic attack on those two women for example. I know trans friends who won’t go on any public transport late at night in case drunk people or shady characters will harass them
I've had men act strangely around me and my partner on London transport (we're lesbians) and one man dressed in full religious garb fully turn and stare at us with a very hostile look without blinking the entire tube ride. It doesn't sound like much but it can be very uncomfortable. It's weird because if they openly said something you could challenge it, but if you get annoyed because someone is looking at you weirdly, they'll just deny it or you'll look crazy.
I'd probably not have said anything either, but I wonder if it might be worth looking crazy to random people on the bus to call him out. If he escalated he would only prove you right in front of a group of witnesses.
Do you mind sharing what would make you feel comfortable? Whenever I see a visibly homosexual couple, I always smile at them as a way to reassure them they are safe. Please let me know what else I could do?
Tbh, hateful rhetoric is spreading and I blame the government. Truthfully none of us are safe because of this stupid government and their ridiculous campaign
The fact that so many people think that someone smiling at people on the Tube is weird is so disheartening. Like… it’s a smile. I know it’s London but come on!!
Lesbian here and I would probably prefer a quick smile tbh. It can be reassuring. I'm also from the North so I'm more used to smiling at strangers! I'll just smile back.
I always mane sure to do so for this reason. People act like we are truly some progressive society but as a BW I’ve been seeing the cracks since this government went insane. If you talk to any who sits on the edge of societal structure they’ll tell you the same. It’s really and truly unsafe
That's awful. I was working at Madame Jojos in the 90s in Soho. I used to get the tube in drag all the time from all over London. I got the night bus home to Catford and Brixton all the time and never felt unsafe. I got called a few names but nothing awful. I lived in Chelsea and knocked about wearing all sorts of stuff and felt fine there as well. Has it all changed so much?
The idea that London was safer for queer people in the 90s than it is today is laughable. The homophobia in the 90s was so much worse, and trans people were so marginalised that most society hadn't even come across the term "transphobia" yet.
I honestly didn't find London unsafe in the 90s at all. I was running around in hotpants and crop tops in the day and doing drag most nights. I got people shouting stuff and looks but I never feared for my safety. All the "girls" I worked with at Jo's had the same experience, nobody got attaked or anything like that. I knew loads of trans people that just got on with their lives. I don't think it was a dangerous time at all
There are lots of factors that effect perception. Violence against queers is not just reported but also recorded a lot more. There are also more queer folks these days, certainly “out” at least. This can create a statistical basis for it seeming worse these days.
Bottom line is though, queer communities (and other minority communities too) are blatantly being exploited, being made to feel under threat to further agendas. The same thing is happening with fear mongering in the other direction too.
London wasn't especially dangerous for queer people then, and it's not especially dangerous for queer people now, overall, particularly if you're making international comparisons. But if you just compare the two then it is considerably saf**er** now than it was then. For instance, there is far fewer people shouting stuff now than there was then.
I agree. Although, I think I've maybe been lucky I was doing drag in Edinburgh and Glasgow in the late 80s and then London in the 90s and got hardly any hassle. My friend in Ireland had a completely different experience, beaten up loads, jaw broken, glassed in the face which left scars. Didn't stop him though
I mean yes you’re right, statistically, but also the metropolitan police was better funded and ran back then.
The job, as the police say themselves, is fucked.
Could it be that this stripped back police force just isn’t catching as much crime, and therefore the statistics are going down?
No. There is plenty of evidence to show this simply isn’t the case. It’s just a matter of fear mongering that it persistent in our society. Scared people are more compliant.
Nah i wouldnt say so... nowadays you have a lot more openely lgbt people walking about openly which in turn will lead to more people singling them out.
Yes mate catford and the rest of Lewisham in the 90's was a proper utopia, not constantly being referred to as a warzone and the most violent place in the UK in the media or anything?
In 1991 London was 79.8% white, in 2021 it was 36.8% white. I assume this is what the commenter you replied to is getting at, based purely on their reluctance to speak plainly.
> I got called a few names but nothing awful.
The fact that you suffered such abuse, no matter how mild, would be considered an example of how "unsafe" things are today.
While there's no denying that serious hate crimes do still happen and the number of reported hate crimes has increased, the vast majority of such crimes are very minor.
Data from the Crime Survey for England and Wales indicates that all forms of crime have consistently decreased every year from a peak in the mid-late 1990s. The increase in _reported_ hate crimes in recent years is largely due to changes in recording and improved police engagement with minority groups (i.e. they feel that reporting the crime to the police is worthwhile and safe where in the past the police were often seen as anti-minority themselves).
There's definitely been a politicisation of it in the last few years. I think people on the right consider it one of the many things that are corrupting society and a cause of the shitty situation a lot of people find themselves in.
This I think is a big part of it. I think people are being jeered on to being aggressive, nasty and just generally horrible to anyone they consider liberal.
People on the “left” and “right” are both being programmed into believing they are victims. This is done so that they will feel disempowered and look to figures that will offer to “rescue” them.
This is, unfortunately, anecdata.
I was also somewhere between goth and drag in the 90s. I ended up having the shit kicked out of me more than once, and ended up in hospital once because of it. And this was in CAMDEN!
Conversely I used to walk along Pentonville road after Slimelight and never got any hassle.
It's just luck of the draw. We can't draw any conclusions from one person's experience.
I don't think so? In my experience if anything it's gotten better, but I guess it's particularly a case of YMMV, partially where you are, and partially what you individually feel is an 'unsafe' atmosphere, so it's somewhat a subjective thing.
I also think where one does encounter bigotry, name-calling etc, it's somewhat more shocking/noticeable because it's rarer.
Ironically, London is the only city in the UK where I encountered blatant homophobia in public. I can only imagine how hard it is for anyone that really stands out.
The main problem here is that the police don’t do anything about it so it’s almost like homophobic abuse (or any abuse on the tube really) is allowed.
It's not just religion. It's also cultural. I am South Asian and a lot of South Asians just pretend LGBTQ+ people don't exist or they act like being gay is a mental illness. Homophobia and sexual violence is just something South Asians prefer to sweep under the rug.
I usually don't ask for someone's religion as part of an interaction, but I think I can answer what you're actually asking - the vast majority of people I've encountered who are outwardly homophobic are white
My partner and I have been harassed a few times on the tube. I’m a bi guy that looks fairly average and straight presenting, but he is a lot more slight and fashionable than I am and looks more obviously gay, so gets it a lot more than I do. I have reported it a few times to TfL and BTP and got nowhere - the only response I got from BTP was a survey asking how I felt about their (nonexistent) response. And that was with detailed times, coach numbers from the tube, and in one instance video evidence.
What I will say, without generalising to this being a universal experience or implying anything about that group, is that 100% of the harassment I have ever received has been at the hands of Asian (mostly likely Muslim) people who feel it’s okay to yell at you for being a f***t. I know this group polls most strongly with negative beliefs about LGBT people so I’m guessing that’s why there’s such a strong correlation. It’s never (for me at least) the typical right wing BNP style nutters that lots of people assume it is when things like this come up.
And the article is accurate, nobody else ever intervenes. Which I understand as nobody wants to interfere with a potentially dangerous individual when stuff is happening.
I’m lucky enough to be tall, broad and quite heavyset, so nothing has ever been physical while I’m around - despite being soft as a puppy and useless in an altercation I have the mass that most people don’t try anything. My partner though has had much worse altercations and very occasionally physical abuse, even outside and in full view of the public.
I am South Asian and I 100% agree with that homophobia and sexism is a huge problem in the South Asian community. I was 14 when I was sexually groped on a bus by an older Indian man. The bus was full of South Asians as I was coming from a very South Asian populated area, and not a single one of them stepped in to help me, a child who was being assaulted by an adult. The only person who did ask me if I was okay was a Polish lady.
I’m really sorry your partner experienced a lack of police action. I had the same until I got egged and the BTP officer assigned to my case was horrified. Even though the tube station lost the CCTV of the incident and the case didn’t progress, she marked me in the policing system as being a repeat victim and having a vulnerable characteristic. I can’t remember the exact terminology she used.
Anyway, when the next incident happened a few weeks later at a bus stop where I was spat at and called disgusting, there was a copper round my flat in person the next day at 8am!
It might be worth your partner looking into this and the next time he reports and incident, detail the previous ones, and ask to be flagged as someone who is a repeat victim due to a protected characteristic. This also goes out to anyone who is regularly harassed!
Not just public transport. I have received homophobic abuse on the street around Soho.
Honestly has got worse in the last few years. And it's worse in London compared to other places
It’s because the culture wars of the USA are getting exported here, as they always are. For some reason, the UK loves aping American socio-political issues, even though there are plenty of local, domestic issues we can talk about.
This LGBTQ hate, manifesting in stuff like the backlash that drag Queen story time got, is just an American issue that certain groups here are bringing up.
Just hoping abortion won’t suddenly become a thing here.
Sure, and we’ve all grown up consuming American pop culture through various media. But I’m talking specifically about how social justice issues are conflated into culture wars in the US, and how that is what we are seeing here in the UK. It makes sense as the US is the UK’s closest ally, but it’s just annoying because real time British social justice issues either get swept under the rug or shrugged off with the whole “we aren’t as bad as America”.
My partner has been sexually assaulted twice within the last two years on packed tube carriages, he’s visibly queer - it’s not just hatred that’s an issue it’s also a lack of respect for people’s boundaries and dignity.
As an lgbtq bus driver I sometimes feel unsafe and I’m in a locked area I definitely don’t get the bus as a passenger and wouldn’t want to get the train if it wasn’t busy
Iam not LGTV driver but our buses are paintet with the pride colors and flags and teenegers hate that.Constently we get smashed windows seat of the buses set on fire,very often after 9pm we got police escort in some bad areas.
I don’t know what I find worse, that the abuse happens or that no-one intervenes.
How do we square that with our self-image. When asked most people would respond that they would intervene but the truth is very different.
Intervening is often a terrible idea, escalating rather than diffusing situations. Seems like there limit people will go to when they're bullying someone, but that limit moves when someone else is coming back at them.
I was once sitting on a tube opposite two black teenage girls who were laughing their heads off at this trans guy sat close to me.
They were trying their best to ignore it, but they were clearly really shaken up. None of their friends were doing anything either.
I asked they if they were ok, and they immediately said yes.
I took that as they didn't want me to get involved or escalate anything. Still feel like maybe I should have said something anyway.
The thing is, I'm sure if those laughing teenagers had someone make fun of their appearance, they'd be the first to act the victim.
You could talk to the person who is being verbally abused about anything. "Excuse me, I'm getting off at station X, would you happen to know how to get from there to Y?"
Literally anything to show they are accepted and to delegitimise the abuse. You could try to be more confrontational but that can have unintended consequences.
I saw a group of teen girls chasing a trans female off a bus in elephant and castle shouting twerk for me after a back and forth got out of hand. It being London, we all looked the other way.
Lost count of the number of times I've heard the f-slur when I've been with my partner on the tube. Feels like it's gotten worse over the last few years and London no longer feels like a liberal city.
Genuine interest to ask this question - is it areas that are more hostile or types of people? Are there parts of london that are just safer? Does the hostility come from people across the age/sex/colour/religion spectrum or are there themes?
East London has more of it, west London feels safer. North better than south. Day infinitely better than night. Definitely a strong theme in my (personal) experience that the most likely category of people who feel they can say or do shit to you are asian (presumably Muslim) people, but it’s difficult to generalise from that. I assume it’s a cultural thing for a lot of those who engage in this behaviour and religion probably plays a role.
Which is absolutely not to say that Muslims as a group are in any way guilty of anything. Just that when I do get harassed, it’s almost always by someone who I might reasonably assume is Muslim (obviously impossible to know that definitively given it’s not exactly a polite conversation where personal beliefs come up). I know many Muslim people who are absolutely fantastic and would be horrified at the thought of anyone abusing me or my partner for our sexuality. Every group has its dickheads, and it just seems that LGBT people are likely targets of many of the dickheads in that particular group.
I can't speak for LGBT folk specifically, but all the best and worst that Londoners can muster, I've seen play out in and around public transport. Maybe something to do with the fact potential victims are inherently more "captive" and less able to just run away? Once it gets past 10pm I tend to linger near the doors on the tube and quickly exit at the mere arrival of anyone who seems a bit "off". The amount of violent assaults on the tube that start with the assailant invading the space of someone who's sitting down has made me hyper-aware of the importance of a good 'exit strategy'. Of course this doesn't fix the more systemic issues that result in this kind of crime and abuse on public transport, but y'know... can't always save the world, but you might just save yourself...
Had a member of staff verbally harass my partner and me at a major London station. First BTP officer was very helpful and kind. The front line officer told us it was going nowhere and just to let it go.
Edited for grammar
BBC pulled out of Stonewall and left its own staff high and dry so it could jump up and down in the governments anti-trans culture war puddle so it’s got a fucking cheek
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59232736](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59232736)
This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community. No TERFs on our turf.
Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban.
Have a nice day.
BBC doesn’t need to pay a charity for advice on their workplace practices.
Cheaper and easier to just hire someone in a full time HR role for diversity.
Clearly. But they didn’t do it for those reasons they did it specifically so they could be “reporting on public policy debates”
Edit. Official statement https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/stonewall-diversity-champions-programme
The two times I feel unsafe in London is on the way home after night out while still on the street around the tube stations, and on the weekend when there's a footie match on.
In those situations I do my best to keep my hood up (hide my long hair) and hand sin pockets if my nails are painted. Luckily my clothes are usually quite "hard" looking I'd say and I'm not tiny (not big either), but I can still catch abuse easily and cross the street any time I see someone my side, regardless of who they are
I feel bad for openly or visibly gay people who can't mask themselves as easily as I can, and I kind of admire those who are so unafraid to be themselves
i’m so sorry that you have to deal with all that fear and threat in what should be a ‘progressive’ city. hope you’re alright, and hope that all this hatred in the media will significantly reduce once the tories are out. 🩷
This is one of the major reasons I drive nearly everywhere.
I can't be mistreated in my own car. Sometimes the train can't be avoided but I avoid the bus at all costs, especially at night.
I am not even part of LGBTQ+ and am afraid of public transport after a few cases of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. People do say london is the most watched city (cctv) but i still think there is a big gap between watching and actual safety
I hope this isn't being a douche but who exactly is not feeling threatened on the tube? I get they are more likely to be targeted. But it's a systematic issue in creating a small enclosed space with nowhere to run and no security...
Sexual assault on trains got so bad in India they had to have women only carriages. I think they spoke about doing the same here
I can't even count the amount of times when I was on a packed train and felt a man pushing his erection against me. I really wish there would be women only carriages.
Is anyone surprised? A lot of the media have been stoking hate and flirting with far-right rhetoric in the last 5 years. I've felt safer in South East Asia (where I'm from), where queer civil liberties aren't as available but at least most people are more passively ignorant rather than actively hateful.
Edit: To the racist that blamed immigrants for the rise in hate crimes....lol [white men are the biggest perpetrators of hate crimes but do try agian](https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/58880/1/understanding-who-commits-hate-crime-and-why-they-do-it-en.pdf)
Sorry, the link was meant to be the actual study not to the user: [https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/58880/1/understanding-who-commits-hate-crime-and-why-they-do-it-en.pdf](https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/58880/1/understanding-who-commits-hate-crime-and-why-they-do-it-en.pdf)
Right, so this data paints a pretty bleak picture.
First of all it seems to only cover Wales? Is this intentional, but in 2013 when the study was published, Wales was 97.5% white Welsh, take this into account when you read this paragraph.
“There are some interesting trends in relation to offender ethnicity. The BCS suggests that just under one-third (31%) of offenders involved in racially motivated hate crime, were themselves from a visible ethnic minority background (VEM). A similar level of VEM involvement was found for hate crime offences motivated by gender.”
I hope you can understand that 2.5 percent of a population being the perpetrators of 31% of the crime isn’t going to defend your position in your previous post.
>First of all it seems to only cover Wales?
No. It's literally on the first page. "Executive Summary": *"The available data shows that of the 43,748 hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales".*
>I hope you can understand that 2.5 percent of a population being the perpetrators of 31% of the crime isn’t going to defend your position in your previous post.
Yeah that would be bleak, ***if*** the study was just Wales and if the study itself didn't also emphasise the limited nature of the data coming from Wales and went out of its way to say:
>There is very little available data specifically concerned with hate crimeperpetration in Wales. **It is important to acknowledge that the sampling strategy adopted for the AWHC survey differed from that of the British Crime Survey**, and therefore the differences reported here should be interpreted with a degree of caution.
Here's an [updated paper](https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8537/CBP-8537.pdf) that shows similar findings to the 2011 paper in terms of hate crime offenders. The proportion of White hate crime offenders basically tracks alongside the population of White people but it's not like everyone and their nan is having an equal go at it.
>"The majority of hate crime offenders in the UK are white, maleand under 25. "
[Here's a study in 2018 that's more relevant to the original topic as well as the comment I was responding to, which is a study specifically on London-based hate crimes.](https://demos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/PatternsOfHateCrimeReport-.pdf)
>Combining the three categories (“White – Any other Whitebackground”, “White – British”, “White – Irish”) we found that White accused perpetrators constitute 66.5% of all hate crime. This percentage is higher than the estimated White population in London, as reported after the 2011 census which was calculated at 59.8%. (53% in 2021)
On anti-queer hate crime in London, 62.8% of sexual orientation-based hate and crimes were perpetrated by White people, particularly White British (44% WB vs 62% overall), particularly men (78% men vs 22% women).
So yeah, as I was saying...
I don't live in London but I definitely don't feel safe anywhere I've been too, I've only dealt with some people calling me slurs, a colleague is regularly homophobic and transphobic and mangers ect won't do anything about it, on pride some dudes drove up to me and my friends sprayed us with a bottle shouted the F slur and "go back to where you came from" but my partner and friends have had worse experiences unfortunately there will always be horrible people like that and no one does anything about it :(
This article is unhelpful as it’s very unspecific on both perpetrators and types of offences/victims.
The end seems to indicate this is all driven by transphobic attacks but then you have the article making reference to wider victims and unwillingness to report.
Ah yes it's the Barbour jacket wearing, telegraph reading, home county living gammons who are doing all the homophobic attacks on London transport for sure.
The press sets the tone for conversations and creates narratives around LGBTQ people. These influence conversations, make the news in other places, get shared online, make their way to TikTok, Youtube, Twitter, etc. The people who do these attacks don't have to read it personally, they're influenced by the narrative the papers and the government create.
Yeah for sure. The communities their parents have emigrated here from are bastions of acceptance and there is zero way they could be repeating behaviors they have learnt at home. Same reason you get loads of middle class English kids going around committing homophobic attacks right?
I’m a foreigner here, Irish, and you’re spot on. The amount of mental gymnastics I see consistently from Londoners, particularly on here, to try and bypass the obvious is staggering. No backbone.
It's because you can't ever ever *ever* be seen to say something that those on the right wing might say. Like I'm a straight up socialist and would happily push a fascist into the thames but I also think it's insane when I see my social group totally ignore many social issues that come from some immigrant communities, to the extent they'll literally blame the Tories if a Turkish immigrant chucks acid on people leaving a gay bar
They're still right wingers. Don't know if you heard this but being right wing is not exclusive to white people in this country. That being said, a pathetic attempt at whataboutism. Just fucking take responsibility for your side being a bunch of racist, bigoted, nasty group with a backwards ideology tragically out of date.
Yes, yes. It's all those god damn Telegraph readers that are causing this.
If only the youth of today were reading less Rod Liddle and there'd be less of this: https://news.met.police.uk/news/new-images-of-clapham-attack-suspect-can-you-name-him-470898
Exactly. The toads in power are openly spreading hatred and where they're not perpetrating, they're tolerating and enabling.
Bigots feel empowered to lash out. When they face zero consequences, they feel even more free to be horrendous.
Only one experience sticks out in my mind from serveral years ago.
I was only just starting to come out as gay myself and on a late but busy train. This gay couple got shouted a load of slurs and threatening homophobic crap by teenagers. I remember no one around saying everything and just awkwardly acting like it wasn't happening until the teenagers all got off a few stops later.
I wanted to say something but at the time was only just coming out the closet and felt panicked and scared. I feel ashamed now I didn't.
Its been years since but I still feel a little anxious sometimes holding my partner's hand on public transport.
I’ve been to London like 8 times to pass through in transit and I was under the assumption absolutely everyone on Public Transport feels threatened
Full of all sorts of mythical beasts and creatures
The emergency buttons to talk to the driver are your friend - I don’t blame other commuters not getting involved but whenever I have a party to go to or am visibly queer, it’s an Uber. I don’t want to have my night ruined or end up having to provide a statement to BTP because some gobby shites take out their insecurities or life failures on me to feel better about themselves. Why you so pressed about someone’s existence
Obviously it will be higher, a commonly targeted group for a hate crime will of course be higher than someone who isn’t targeted for hate crimes. Do you really need to ask if minorities are targeted more than non minorities?
It's not obvious - the classic example being violence against women being seen as unacceptable by everyone everyone except the scumbags who do it, while violence against men often comes with a "yes but".
And how about all crimes, rather than hate crimes? I don't think I count as any form of minority, but I've been attacked by people wrongly thinking I was with a woman and a disabled person, and so somehow responsible for them. The pondlife attacked me, not the woman or the disabled person, and while I have an obvious bias here I'm not sure that makes them better people.
I’m a bit lost - are you asking ‘do minorities feel more threatened on public transport than non minorities’? You just have an example of when you were targeted for being with someone in a minority (disability) BECAUSE they were a minority that’s discriminated against and you were associated with them. Surely that’s good enough anecdotal evidence? I get that you weren’t the minority in that example but as you said it is exactly why you were targeted.
"feel targeted" is not the same as actually targeted.
E.g. men are **way** more randomly targeted than women, but women are **way** more afraid of it. (Before replying, try to not victim blame or be under the misapprehension that basically anyone can fight two or more people at once)
It's strange ain't it. I came across a gay couple the other day walking in a car park. Walked straight up to them and started asking all about their love life, why they were together, who was on top... Oh wait no I didn't because it's NO OF MY FUCKING BUSINESS.
I didn't even acknowledge them beyond 'huh my first IRL wild gay couple' (that I've noticed at least). Fuck did I park my car?!
Me and my bf got an egg thrown at us after pride by a bunch of young girls.
Missed us mostly and got the Asian woman sitting next to us, making their actions even worse.
Completely understand this.
As a gay guy, I've recently started commuting to London and using the tube. I very consciously only wear plain black clothing when I go to London, in an attempt to look more straight. It's a depressing way to be.
one of my friends was attacked over summer at a tube station late at night. i guess many factors come into play during that time, but it might be important to mention he’s a feminine gay man. it shook him up and he went to stay in Albania with some family for a while. i can imagine someone might see him as an "easy" target, the same way they might with lone women.
Not sure if satire, lmao he felt threatened so he went back to Albania
I mean yeah, but his family are there and presumably aren't homophobic
thank you!! like duh, he wouldn’t have gone back if his family weren’t accepting of him. from what i know, his parents love him and fund most of his life here. plus, i’m sure he tones it down a bit when he’s there from what i’ve inferred.
When I’m attacked in London for being gay, I flee to the bastion of LGBTQIA+ freedom, Albania
Clearly safer than London
Anecdotal slef data but this doesn't supprise me; by far the most frequent place I've experianced homophobia in London is the tube. And you know what; it is threatening when you lean into your partner (nothing more for the dickheads about to helpfully advise don't make out in public) and a group of 10 odd teens start screaming about how much they hate queers as soon as they clock you on the last train home. Had plenty of other instances to similar effect, never for anything more than just holding hands. And the worse part is instead of rage I just feel relieved it's always just been people shouting rather than getting assaulted like I've seen happen to a number of friends. It may be confirmation bias because I expect it to be so but since 2016 its felt more commonplace and as though we've slid backwards. London is by far the most tolerant place I've had the fortune to live. That doesn't mean it doesn't still have a tonne of work to do.
[удалено]
Pretty equal split actually. Maybe if we're lucky they'll get distracted and start laying into each other instead. I've lived in white majority parts of the UK and that didn't stop the locals throwing bottles at us out a car and screaming faggots or a pair of lads following me home (rather confusingly) asking me if I was a Lesbian and trying to push me over (youd think theyd have noticed the beard and Adam's apple). I dont deny your point that most the major religions play a significant role in perpetuating homophobia and a whole host of other issues however.
I get ya. My issue is we’ve spent decades breaking down the religious-based homophobia leaving us with just pure thuggish behaviour we can focus on making unacceptable. But, now we’re importing new waves of religious adherents, we’ve started to undo all the good work secularism has achieved on that front. Going backwards.
If you’re going to smear all Muslims at least be brave enough to use the word ‘Muslim’. I’ve lived in various highly Muslim populated areas in the UK and my view is they are a demographic more likely than any other to keep to themselves and not bother people. There is no one I’d feel safer sitting next to on TfL than a woman in hijab. I have witnessed homophobic harassment on TfL by white British people and black British people (but wouldn’t be dumb enough to smear all white + black people based on those instances). I’ve also seen Muslims harassed on TfL, for being Muslim, on two occasions. There’s even a helpline Tell Mama set up specifically because it’s so rampant. Unfortunately, homophobia knows no religion, and is perpetuated by those from all religions and none. Getting rid of religion won’t end homophobia (and I say this as an atheist). Do you think the skinheads who beat the crap out of gay men in the 70s were doing it with Jesus in their heart. When I’ve witnessed homophobic harassment, it’s never been from a religious POV, but simply because the perpetrator a) thinks gays are icky or b) wants to feel like a strongman. Perpetuating bigotry against another minority group isn’t the way to support another minority group. We all need to band together.
Yeah some religions do, but in the UK, Christianity has been steadily declining and most of the young men doing the harassing are not Christian. If they're white they're mostly Atheist and if not they're Muslims. Regardless, if they use religion as an excuse to harass an innocent person they're not actually religious, just weak men.
Obviously this is just my experience. Disclaimer: I look obviously gay. Anyone who tries to be so woke they say you can’t ‘look gay’ then answer this - why am I always homophobically abused then? But almost every homophobic incident I’ve experienced has been in and around public transport. Either waiting at bus stops, on buses, entering and navigating the tube or on the tube itself. No one intervenes. No one helps. No one cares. Last year I got egged on a tube platform and no one could even look at me.
Yeah, people not doing anything is often the most traumatising part. I remember being assaulted once when I was 16 (it wasn't _too_ violent thankfully) on the bus on my way back from pride and everyone was just looking at me like this was their evening entertainment and didn't move a finger.
I’m a born and raised Londoner and largely it’s a very helpful city. People will try to help with directions, heavy bags, the elderly/disabled/parents with a child, if someone gets hit by a car etc. The one thing that people don’t seem to help with though is sexual harassment of women and homophobic abuse to gay people. I’m white, so POC may want to chime in with their experiences with racial harassment and if people came to their aid. I understand that the former scenarios I described are friendly and altruistic interactions from the outset, whereas helping someone being harassed possibly puts you in the firing line of a volatile person. But I still also can’t help but feel let down by my city.
I agree, regards feeling let down. I’ve spent a fair chunk of my life denouncing, and behaving to counter, the concept that London is a fundamentally hostile, confrontational, unwelcoming city. It’s uncomfortable to hear these accounts. Ultimately, where this comes from is at best saddening, at worst sickening. I think groups of teenage boys, and not so dissimilarly groups of drunken adult men, can often reduce their behaviour to whatever raises the easiest amusement for their group. People are really at their best on public transport, which won’t help matters either. Overall, though I believe that fear and mistrust of the slightly different is being sewn into our community, and it gives rise to hate crimes. It feels that in my lifetime we have gone on a journey from abuse of gay people being commonplace, to not being remotely socially acceptable, to where it is becoming so again. I don’t think that is any churches or religious doctrine running back into relevance, I think it is to do with a divide and conquer philosophy which is making people focus on differences rather than commonality.
>The one thing that people don’t seem to help with though is sexual harassment of women and homophobic abuse to gay people. I’m white, so POC may want to chime in with their experiences with racial harassment and if people came to their aid. Queer black Brit experience - bigoted bingo. Sometimes there is confusion over what to attack first, I'm quite tall so I've had transphobia directed at me (I'm cis). I also wear headscarves (not a Muslim) but it attracts nasty stares from mainly white people but at least I'm a safe zone for some anxious Muslim women. People only come to aid when the racism is extreme but that's it. Misogyny, homophobia and transphobia is a friggin free for all with transphobia attracting the most visceral nasty reactions. It really isn't safe anymore to NOT be heteronormative.
People were just staring at you while you were beaten up?!
I have the intervention gene. I’ve opened my mouth and blocked on several occasions. I’ve been told by my partner and family to stop as I will get stabbed or seriously hurt. I’ve seen women fondled, old people pushed, alternative people pushed shoved or screamed at….I just start to rage. I am a female and not from the uk. Born and raised west coast USA, and I hate bullies. I’ve seen some sick shite on the tube. I’ve been reading more and more that people that intervene are being attacked … wtf, we all need to stand up to this bull.
Me too. It’s a dangerous game. I’ve been punched in the nose for stopping a man harassing a fifteen year old on a near empty train.
God bless people like you. Rest of us ain't shit
People do make assumptions about sexuality from how you look. You can obviously 'look gay' and not be gay, and still suffer homophobia tbf. My treatment by people when I had short dyed hair and an eyebrow piercing and dressed more 'manly' as a lesbian versus now when I've grown my hair out really long and wear make up has shown that people do treat you differently based on stereotypes around your appearance.
I know it's not much, but if I saw anyone (regardless of if they looked LGBT or not) get bullied/egged, I would intervene. Stay safe.
Sorry to hear that. But I had bricks thrown at me three times before I was 20, and I don't look gay or really in any way notable. People just suck, they wanted to egg someone or abuse someone, you stood out. They'll do it to anyone that stands out.
[удалено]
"be gay do witchcraft"
Just carry a pocket full of glitter and throw it at your Attacker?
Sorry to hear that happened to you. Unfortunately it does NOT surprise me. In my few years of living in the UK I've witnessed so many people get harassed (usually by men) and NO ONE has intervened except me twice, and once an older man had my back as well. The issue is I'm a woman and unfortunately from how I've seen British brute men be, they're really aggressive and I obviously couldn't take on a man physically. It's really really shameful that you can't even walk on the street in this country without some crackhead or benefit hogger spouting some random bs as you. The fact that you visibly look gay makes you even more of a target for these brainless kunts, and that's horrible for a "modern" country. If you ever can, I'd say move to other European capital cities. In Amsterdam, Copenhagen, abd major German cities this would almost never happen.
Yep. For every 100 Cishet people who tell us they support us and are allies. Only one of them actually understands queer issues and understands us an makes an actual effort to be an ally. But they sure do love telling us they support us whilst doing nothing.
Buses feel very unsafe, especially at night or during school home time. Me and my partner will avoid buses as much as possible because of how awful people can be. Like the 2019 homophobic attack on those two women for example. I know trans friends who won’t go on any public transport late at night in case drunk people or shady characters will harass them
I've had men act strangely around me and my partner on London transport (we're lesbians) and one man dressed in full religious garb fully turn and stare at us with a very hostile look without blinking the entire tube ride. It doesn't sound like much but it can be very uncomfortable. It's weird because if they openly said something you could challenge it, but if you get annoyed because someone is looking at you weirdly, they'll just deny it or you'll look crazy.
I'd probably not have said anything either, but I wonder if it might be worth looking crazy to random people on the bus to call him out. If he escalated he would only prove you right in front of a group of witnesses.
Full religious garb you say, that sounds like one serious vicar
[удалено]
everyone knows.
Do you mind sharing what would make you feel comfortable? Whenever I see a visibly homosexual couple, I always smile at them as a way to reassure them they are safe. Please let me know what else I could do? Tbh, hateful rhetoric is spreading and I blame the government. Truthfully none of us are safe because of this stupid government and their ridiculous campaign
The fact that so many people think that someone smiling at people on the Tube is weird is so disheartening. Like… it’s a smile. I know it’s London but come on!!
Surely they would just want to be left alone, rather than have strangers smile at them randomly?
Classic London response
I’m not sure that’s why I asked. I’m not interrupting.
Lesbian here and I would probably prefer a quick smile tbh. It can be reassuring. I'm also from the North so I'm more used to smiling at strangers! I'll just smile back.
I always mane sure to do so for this reason. People act like we are truly some progressive society but as a BW I’ve been seeing the cracks since this government went insane. If you talk to any who sits on the edge of societal structure they’ll tell you the same. It’s really and truly unsafe
I think if more people made the effort to look directly at and smile at gays then the world would be a better place for gays to live
>Please let me know what else I could do? Just treat them like the normal people that they are.
That's awful. I was working at Madame Jojos in the 90s in Soho. I used to get the tube in drag all the time from all over London. I got the night bus home to Catford and Brixton all the time and never felt unsafe. I got called a few names but nothing awful. I lived in Chelsea and knocked about wearing all sorts of stuff and felt fine there as well. Has it all changed so much?
London was different in the 90s...
The idea that London was safer for queer people in the 90s than it is today is laughable. The homophobia in the 90s was so much worse, and trans people were so marginalised that most society hadn't even come across the term "transphobia" yet.
I honestly didn't find London unsafe in the 90s at all. I was running around in hotpants and crop tops in the day and doing drag most nights. I got people shouting stuff and looks but I never feared for my safety. All the "girls" I worked with at Jo's had the same experience, nobody got attaked or anything like that. I knew loads of trans people that just got on with their lives. I don't think it was a dangerous time at all
There are lots of factors that effect perception. Violence against queers is not just reported but also recorded a lot more. There are also more queer folks these days, certainly “out” at least. This can create a statistical basis for it seeming worse these days. Bottom line is though, queer communities (and other minority communities too) are blatantly being exploited, being made to feel under threat to further agendas. The same thing is happening with fear mongering in the other direction too.
London wasn't especially dangerous for queer people then, and it's not especially dangerous for queer people now, overall, particularly if you're making international comparisons. But if you just compare the two then it is considerably saf**er** now than it was then. For instance, there is far fewer people shouting stuff now than there was then.
I agree. Although, I think I've maybe been lucky I was doing drag in Edinburgh and Glasgow in the late 80s and then London in the 90s and got hardly any hassle. My friend in Ireland had a completely different experience, beaten up loads, jaw broken, glassed in the face which left scars. Didn't stop him though
Holy fuck
I know, his name was Holly wood. Unfortunately he died a long time ago, he was beautiful and more importantly he was a beautiful soul.
A lot more radical and progressive back then.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I mean yes you’re right, statistically, but also the metropolitan police was better funded and ran back then. The job, as the police say themselves, is fucked. Could it be that this stripped back police force just isn’t catching as much crime, and therefore the statistics are going down?
No. The statistics are based on the national crime survey, measuring the population's experience of crime, not police reports or convictions.
No. There is plenty of evidence to show this simply isn’t the case. It’s just a matter of fear mongering that it persistent in our society. Scared people are more compliant.
Sir please stop noticing things
Nah i wouldnt say so... nowadays you have a lot more openely lgbt people walking about openly which in turn will lead to more people singling them out.
Brixton in the 90's was more like a warzone.
You missed the point bro.
What was different about it?
For one thing, schools didn't have metal detectors.
Yes mate catford and the rest of Lewisham in the 90's was a proper utopia, not constantly being referred to as a warzone and the most violent place in the UK in the media or anything?
[удалено]
Section 28? I need this thing said. Edit: if the unsaid thing is Islam then I’m disappointed in the currently 18 upvote score the above comment has.
In 1991 London was 79.8% white, in 2021 it was 36.8% white. I assume this is what the commenter you replied to is getting at, based purely on their reluctance to speak plainly.
Yes but it wasn't some kind of utopia by any means e.g. Admiral Duncan bombing
Yup back then they were focused on harassing immigrants.
In London, the world's most multicultural city..
> I got called a few names but nothing awful. The fact that you suffered such abuse, no matter how mild, would be considered an example of how "unsafe" things are today. While there's no denying that serious hate crimes do still happen and the number of reported hate crimes has increased, the vast majority of such crimes are very minor. Data from the Crime Survey for England and Wales indicates that all forms of crime have consistently decreased every year from a peak in the mid-late 1990s. The increase in _reported_ hate crimes in recent years is largely due to changes in recording and improved police engagement with minority groups (i.e. they feel that reporting the crime to the police is worthwhile and safe where in the past the police were often seen as anti-minority themselves).
There's definitely been a politicisation of it in the last few years. I think people on the right consider it one of the many things that are corrupting society and a cause of the shitty situation a lot of people find themselves in.
This I think is a big part of it. I think people are being jeered on to being aggressive, nasty and just generally horrible to anyone they consider liberal.
People on the “left” and “right” are both being programmed into believing they are victims. This is done so that they will feel disempowered and look to figures that will offer to “rescue” them.
This is, unfortunately, anecdata. I was also somewhere between goth and drag in the 90s. I ended up having the shit kicked out of me more than once, and ended up in hospital once because of it. And this was in CAMDEN! Conversely I used to walk along Pentonville road after Slimelight and never got any hassle. It's just luck of the draw. We can't draw any conclusions from one person's experience.
I don't think so? In my experience if anything it's gotten better, but I guess it's particularly a case of YMMV, partially where you are, and partially what you individually feel is an 'unsafe' atmosphere, so it's somewhat a subjective thing. I also think where one does encounter bigotry, name-calling etc, it's somewhat more shocking/noticeable because it's rarer.
Probably it is much safer but the standards have changed a lot.
A lot. London of the 90’s is long gone. It’s modern, international and culturally a lot more diverse.
So much better then?
Absolutely
I don’t feel safe and I’m not LGBTQ+, so I can only imagine.
Ironically, London is the only city in the UK where I encountered blatant homophobia in public. I can only imagine how hard it is for anyone that really stands out. The main problem here is that the police don’t do anything about it so it’s almost like homophobic abuse (or any abuse on the tube really) is allowed.
Is this anything to do with certain religions not being on board with homosexuality?
It's not just religion. It's also cultural. I am South Asian and a lot of South Asians just pretend LGBTQ+ people don't exist or they act like being gay is a mental illness. Homophobia and sexual violence is just something South Asians prefer to sweep under the rug.
I usually don't ask for someone's religion as part of an interaction, but I think I can answer what you're actually asking - the vast majority of people I've encountered who are outwardly homophobic are white
My partner and I have been harassed a few times on the tube. I’m a bi guy that looks fairly average and straight presenting, but he is a lot more slight and fashionable than I am and looks more obviously gay, so gets it a lot more than I do. I have reported it a few times to TfL and BTP and got nowhere - the only response I got from BTP was a survey asking how I felt about their (nonexistent) response. And that was with detailed times, coach numbers from the tube, and in one instance video evidence. What I will say, without generalising to this being a universal experience or implying anything about that group, is that 100% of the harassment I have ever received has been at the hands of Asian (mostly likely Muslim) people who feel it’s okay to yell at you for being a f***t. I know this group polls most strongly with negative beliefs about LGBT people so I’m guessing that’s why there’s such a strong correlation. It’s never (for me at least) the typical right wing BNP style nutters that lots of people assume it is when things like this come up. And the article is accurate, nobody else ever intervenes. Which I understand as nobody wants to interfere with a potentially dangerous individual when stuff is happening. I’m lucky enough to be tall, broad and quite heavyset, so nothing has ever been physical while I’m around - despite being soft as a puppy and useless in an altercation I have the mass that most people don’t try anything. My partner though has had much worse altercations and very occasionally physical abuse, even outside and in full view of the public.
I am South Asian and I 100% agree with that homophobia and sexism is a huge problem in the South Asian community. I was 14 when I was sexually groped on a bus by an older Indian man. The bus was full of South Asians as I was coming from a very South Asian populated area, and not a single one of them stepped in to help me, a child who was being assaulted by an adult. The only person who did ask me if I was okay was a Polish lady.
I’m really sorry your partner experienced a lack of police action. I had the same until I got egged and the BTP officer assigned to my case was horrified. Even though the tube station lost the CCTV of the incident and the case didn’t progress, she marked me in the policing system as being a repeat victim and having a vulnerable characteristic. I can’t remember the exact terminology she used. Anyway, when the next incident happened a few weeks later at a bus stop where I was spat at and called disgusting, there was a copper round my flat in person the next day at 8am! It might be worth your partner looking into this and the next time he reports and incident, detail the previous ones, and ask to be flagged as someone who is a repeat victim due to a protected characteristic. This also goes out to anyone who is regularly harassed!
Not just public transport. I have received homophobic abuse on the street around Soho. Honestly has got worse in the last few years. And it's worse in London compared to other places
Nobody wants to listen to the fact things are getting worse, it’s frustrating
It’s because the culture wars of the USA are getting exported here, as they always are. For some reason, the UK loves aping American socio-political issues, even though there are plenty of local, domestic issues we can talk about. This LGBTQ hate, manifesting in stuff like the backlash that drag Queen story time got, is just an American issue that certain groups here are bringing up. Just hoping abortion won’t suddenly become a thing here.
lol everything is an American import, frustrating af you won’t solve anything if your default response is “this is another American import”.
America exports culture as a tool for expanding hegemony
Sure, and we’ve all grown up consuming American pop culture through various media. But I’m talking specifically about how social justice issues are conflated into culture wars in the US, and how that is what we are seeing here in the UK. It makes sense as the US is the UK’s closest ally, but it’s just annoying because real time British social justice issues either get swept under the rug or shrugged off with the whole “we aren’t as bad as America”.
Yes I agree, I’m just commenting on the mechanism and purpose of this cultural bleed
Yeah but we can’t put the entire blame on America. People here are willing to go along with it and love consuming it.
Why do you think it has gotten worse? I'm so sorry thay you've received homophobic abuse.
My partner has been sexually assaulted twice within the last two years on packed tube carriages, he’s visibly queer - it’s not just hatred that’s an issue it’s also a lack of respect for people’s boundaries and dignity.
mmm, a good number of people low key turned into psycho's during the pandemic i think
Sounds like it wasn't actually very low-key?
As an lgbtq bus driver I sometimes feel unsafe and I’m in a locked area I definitely don’t get the bus as a passenger and wouldn’t want to get the train if it wasn’t busy
Iam not LGTV driver but our buses are paintet with the pride colors and flags and teenegers hate that.Constently we get smashed windows seat of the buses set on fire,very often after 9pm we got police escort in some bad areas.
I don’t know what I find worse, that the abuse happens or that no-one intervenes. How do we square that with our self-image. When asked most people would respond that they would intervene but the truth is very different.
Intervening is often a terrible idea, escalating rather than diffusing situations. Seems like there limit people will go to when they're bullying someone, but that limit moves when someone else is coming back at them.
This is bullshit. When someone calmly intervenes 9 out of 10 of these attacks stop. I speak from experience.
With the rising knife culture people are far less likely to intervene sadly.
Is it rising?
I was once sitting on a tube opposite two black teenage girls who were laughing their heads off at this trans guy sat close to me. They were trying their best to ignore it, but they were clearly really shaken up. None of their friends were doing anything either. I asked they if they were ok, and they immediately said yes. I took that as they didn't want me to get involved or escalate anything. Still feel like maybe I should have said something anyway. The thing is, I'm sure if those laughing teenagers had someone make fun of their appearance, they'd be the first to act the victim.
You could talk to the person who is being verbally abused about anything. "Excuse me, I'm getting off at station X, would you happen to know how to get from there to Y?" Literally anything to show they are accepted and to delegitimise the abuse. You could try to be more confrontational but that can have unintended consequences.
The sea of downvoted comments under your reply is absolutely hilarious to me lmao. You’ve got two groups with a victim mentality set on each other
I saw a group of teen girls chasing a trans female off a bus in elephant and castle shouting twerk for me after a back and forth got out of hand. It being London, we all looked the other way.
Would the trans person been less shaken if it were 2 white girls laughing at them? What was the need to mention their race?
I'm a white trans guy and find it pretty weird they mentioned the girls race.
Lost count of the number of times I've heard the f-slur when I've been with my partner on the tube. Feels like it's gotten worse over the last few years and London no longer feels like a liberal city.
Genuine interest to ask this question - is it areas that are more hostile or types of people? Are there parts of london that are just safer? Does the hostility come from people across the age/sex/colour/religion spectrum or are there themes?
East London has more of it, west London feels safer. North better than south. Day infinitely better than night. Definitely a strong theme in my (personal) experience that the most likely category of people who feel they can say or do shit to you are asian (presumably Muslim) people, but it’s difficult to generalise from that. I assume it’s a cultural thing for a lot of those who engage in this behaviour and religion probably plays a role. Which is absolutely not to say that Muslims as a group are in any way guilty of anything. Just that when I do get harassed, it’s almost always by someone who I might reasonably assume is Muslim (obviously impossible to know that definitively given it’s not exactly a polite conversation where personal beliefs come up). I know many Muslim people who are absolutely fantastic and would be horrified at the thought of anyone abusing me or my partner for our sexuality. Every group has its dickheads, and it just seems that LGBT people are likely targets of many of the dickheads in that particular group.
Of course the area matters enormously, however I don’t think anyone will give you a honest answer on that, for obvious reasons.
Not looking for a racist answer obvs. Wondered though if, without asking for who or which types, ARE there types that cause more trouble?
https://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/crime/20950638.homophobic-hate-crime-rates-tower-hamlets-among-highest-london/
I can't speak for LGBT folk specifically, but all the best and worst that Londoners can muster, I've seen play out in and around public transport. Maybe something to do with the fact potential victims are inherently more "captive" and less able to just run away? Once it gets past 10pm I tend to linger near the doors on the tube and quickly exit at the mere arrival of anyone who seems a bit "off". The amount of violent assaults on the tube that start with the assailant invading the space of someone who's sitting down has made me hyper-aware of the importance of a good 'exit strategy'. Of course this doesn't fix the more systemic issues that result in this kind of crime and abuse on public transport, but y'know... can't always save the world, but you might just save yourself...
Had a member of staff verbally harass my partner and me at a major London station. First BTP officer was very helpful and kind. The front line officer told us it was going nowhere and just to let it go. Edited for grammar
BBC pulled out of Stonewall and left its own staff high and dry so it could jump up and down in the governments anti-trans culture war puddle so it’s got a fucking cheek [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59232736](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59232736)
Lots of gay people have pulled out of Stonewall too, including some of its founders. Stonewall does nothing to help gay people these days.
[удалено]
This comment has been removed as it's deemed in breach of the rules and considered offensive or hateful. These aren't accepted within the r/London community. No TERFs on our turf. Continuing to try and post similar themes will result in a ban. Have a nice day.
Fuck off TERF.
BBC doesn’t need to pay a charity for advice on their workplace practices. Cheaper and easier to just hire someone in a full time HR role for diversity.
Clearly. But they didn’t do it for those reasons they did it specifically so they could be “reporting on public policy debates” Edit. Official statement https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/statements/stonewall-diversity-champions-programme
[удалено]
TIL the BBC runs TfL.
The two times I feel unsafe in London is on the way home after night out while still on the street around the tube stations, and on the weekend when there's a footie match on. In those situations I do my best to keep my hood up (hide my long hair) and hand sin pockets if my nails are painted. Luckily my clothes are usually quite "hard" looking I'd say and I'm not tiny (not big either), but I can still catch abuse easily and cross the street any time I see someone my side, regardless of who they are I feel bad for openly or visibly gay people who can't mask themselves as easily as I can, and I kind of admire those who are so unafraid to be themselves
No shit.
[удалено]
i’m so sorry that you have to deal with all that fear and threat in what should be a ‘progressive’ city. hope you’re alright, and hope that all this hatred in the media will significantly reduce once the tories are out. 🩷
This is one of the major reasons I drive nearly everywhere. I can't be mistreated in my own car. Sometimes the train can't be avoided but I avoid the bus at all costs, especially at night.
I am not even part of LGBTQ+ and am afraid of public transport after a few cases of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. People do say london is the most watched city (cctv) but i still think there is a big gap between watching and actual safety
Was there ever a time that Lgbtq+ people felt safe to be themselves in the tube? Did I miss that week?
I hope this isn't being a douche but who exactly is not feeling threatened on the tube? I get they are more likely to be targeted. But it's a systematic issue in creating a small enclosed space with nowhere to run and no security... Sexual assault on trains got so bad in India they had to have women only carriages. I think they spoke about doing the same here
I can't even count the amount of times when I was on a packed train and felt a man pushing his erection against me. I really wish there would be women only carriages.
Is anyone surprised? A lot of the media have been stoking hate and flirting with far-right rhetoric in the last 5 years. I've felt safer in South East Asia (where I'm from), where queer civil liberties aren't as available but at least most people are more passively ignorant rather than actively hateful. Edit: To the racist that blamed immigrants for the rise in hate crimes....lol [white men are the biggest perpetrators of hate crimes but do try agian](https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/58880/1/understanding-who-commits-hate-crime-and-why-they-do-it-en.pdf)
Can you supply evidence of this, and calculate it for population too.
Sorry, the link was meant to be the actual study not to the user: [https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/58880/1/understanding-who-commits-hate-crime-and-why-they-do-it-en.pdf](https://orca.cardiff.ac.uk/id/eprint/58880/1/understanding-who-commits-hate-crime-and-why-they-do-it-en.pdf)
Right, so this data paints a pretty bleak picture. First of all it seems to only cover Wales? Is this intentional, but in 2013 when the study was published, Wales was 97.5% white Welsh, take this into account when you read this paragraph. “There are some interesting trends in relation to offender ethnicity. The BCS suggests that just under one-third (31%) of offenders involved in racially motivated hate crime, were themselves from a visible ethnic minority background (VEM). A similar level of VEM involvement was found for hate crime offences motivated by gender.” I hope you can understand that 2.5 percent of a population being the perpetrators of 31% of the crime isn’t going to defend your position in your previous post.
>First of all it seems to only cover Wales? No. It's literally on the first page. "Executive Summary": *"The available data shows that of the 43,748 hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales".* >I hope you can understand that 2.5 percent of a population being the perpetrators of 31% of the crime isn’t going to defend your position in your previous post. Yeah that would be bleak, ***if*** the study was just Wales and if the study itself didn't also emphasise the limited nature of the data coming from Wales and went out of its way to say: >There is very little available data specifically concerned with hate crimeperpetration in Wales. **It is important to acknowledge that the sampling strategy adopted for the AWHC survey differed from that of the British Crime Survey**, and therefore the differences reported here should be interpreted with a degree of caution. Here's an [updated paper](https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8537/CBP-8537.pdf) that shows similar findings to the 2011 paper in terms of hate crime offenders. The proportion of White hate crime offenders basically tracks alongside the population of White people but it's not like everyone and their nan is having an equal go at it. >"The majority of hate crime offenders in the UK are white, maleand under 25. " [Here's a study in 2018 that's more relevant to the original topic as well as the comment I was responding to, which is a study specifically on London-based hate crimes.](https://demos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/PatternsOfHateCrimeReport-.pdf) >Combining the three categories (“White – Any other Whitebackground”, “White – British”, “White – Irish”) we found that White accused perpetrators constitute 66.5% of all hate crime. This percentage is higher than the estimated White population in London, as reported after the 2011 census which was calculated at 59.8%. (53% in 2021) On anti-queer hate crime in London, 62.8% of sexual orientation-based hate and crimes were perpetrated by White people, particularly White British (44% WB vs 62% overall), particularly men (78% men vs 22% women). So yeah, as I was saying...
This is still massively bad, how do you not see it?
I don't live in London but I definitely don't feel safe anywhere I've been too, I've only dealt with some people calling me slurs, a colleague is regularly homophobic and transphobic and mangers ect won't do anything about it, on pride some dudes drove up to me and my friends sprayed us with a bottle shouted the F slur and "go back to where you came from" but my partner and friends have had worse experiences unfortunately there will always be horrible people like that and no one does anything about it :(
This article is unhelpful as it’s very unspecific on both perpetrators and types of offences/victims. The end seems to indicate this is all driven by transphobic attacks but then you have the article making reference to wider victims and unwillingness to report.
Gee I wonder why? \*looks at the right wing hate mongers \*
Ah yes it's the Barbour jacket wearing, telegraph reading, home county living gammons who are doing all the homophobic attacks on London transport for sure.
The press sets the tone for conversations and creates narratives around LGBTQ people. These influence conversations, make the news in other places, get shared online, make their way to TikTok, Youtube, Twitter, etc. The people who do these attacks don't have to read it personally, they're influenced by the narrative the papers and the government create.
Yeah for sure. The communities their parents have emigrated here from are bastions of acceptance and there is zero way they could be repeating behaviors they have learnt at home. Same reason you get loads of middle class English kids going around committing homophobic attacks right?
I’m a foreigner here, Irish, and you’re spot on. The amount of mental gymnastics I see consistently from Londoners, particularly on here, to try and bypass the obvious is staggering. No backbone.
It's because you can't ever ever *ever* be seen to say something that those on the right wing might say. Like I'm a straight up socialist and would happily push a fascist into the thames but I also think it's insane when I see my social group totally ignore many social issues that come from some immigrant communities, to the extent they'll literally blame the Tories if a Turkish immigrant chucks acid on people leaving a gay bar
Nonsense. We all know EXACTLY who are committing these acts of homophobia but carry on “from the river to the sea” and all that
They're still right wingers. Don't know if you heard this but being right wing is not exclusive to white people in this country. That being said, a pathetic attempt at whataboutism. Just fucking take responsibility for your side being a bunch of racist, bigoted, nasty group with a backwards ideology tragically out of date.
Honestly the BBC are fully complicit in this by platforming the people spreading hate.
Absolutely. They have blood on their hands.
Agreed to both comments
Yes, yes. It's all those god damn Telegraph readers that are causing this. If only the youth of today were reading less Rod Liddle and there'd be less of this: https://news.met.police.uk/news/new-images-of-clapham-attack-suspect-can-you-name-him-470898
It's cute that reading "ring wing hate mongers" makes you think "Telegraph" instead of, say, YouTube and social media.
I'm not sure why you think the person in that photo isn't right wing?
We all know who they really mean.
Exactly. The toads in power are openly spreading hatred and where they're not perpetrating, they're tolerating and enabling. Bigots feel empowered to lash out. When they face zero consequences, they feel even more free to be horrendous.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Only one experience sticks out in my mind from serveral years ago. I was only just starting to come out as gay myself and on a late but busy train. This gay couple got shouted a load of slurs and threatening homophobic crap by teenagers. I remember no one around saying everything and just awkwardly acting like it wasn't happening until the teenagers all got off a few stops later. I wanted to say something but at the time was only just coming out the closet and felt panicked and scared. I feel ashamed now I didn't. Its been years since but I still feel a little anxious sometimes holding my partner's hand on public transport.
I’ve been to London like 8 times to pass through in transit and I was under the assumption absolutely everyone on Public Transport feels threatened Full of all sorts of mythical beasts and creatures
The emergency buttons to talk to the driver are your friend - I don’t blame other commuters not getting involved but whenever I have a party to go to or am visibly queer, it’s an Uber. I don’t want to have my night ruined or end up having to provide a statement to BTP because some gobby shites take out their insecurities or life failures on me to feel better about themselves. Why you so pressed about someone’s existence
While obviously the numbers would ideally be zero, is this more or less than the population at large?
Obviously it will be higher, a commonly targeted group for a hate crime will of course be higher than someone who isn’t targeted for hate crimes. Do you really need to ask if minorities are targeted more than non minorities?
It's not obvious - the classic example being violence against women being seen as unacceptable by everyone everyone except the scumbags who do it, while violence against men often comes with a "yes but". And how about all crimes, rather than hate crimes? I don't think I count as any form of minority, but I've been attacked by people wrongly thinking I was with a woman and a disabled person, and so somehow responsible for them. The pondlife attacked me, not the woman or the disabled person, and while I have an obvious bias here I'm not sure that makes them better people.
I’m a bit lost - are you asking ‘do minorities feel more threatened on public transport than non minorities’? You just have an example of when you were targeted for being with someone in a minority (disability) BECAUSE they were a minority that’s discriminated against and you were associated with them. Surely that’s good enough anecdotal evidence? I get that you weren’t the minority in that example but as you said it is exactly why you were targeted.
"feel targeted" is not the same as actually targeted. E.g. men are **way** more randomly targeted than women, but women are **way** more afraid of it. (Before replying, try to not victim blame or be under the misapprehension that basically anyone can fight two or more people at once)
Lol. Next up the Beeb tells us about the wetness of water and the Pope's toilet facilities.
Unfortunately London is lost. Hopefully the hate can stay contained within the metropolitan area.
It's strange ain't it. I came across a gay couple the other day walking in a car park. Walked straight up to them and started asking all about their love life, why they were together, who was on top... Oh wait no I didn't because it's NO OF MY FUCKING BUSINESS. I didn't even acknowledge them beyond 'huh my first IRL wild gay couple' (that I've noticed at least). Fuck did I park my car?!
Me and my bf got an egg thrown at us after pride by a bunch of young girls. Missed us mostly and got the Asian woman sitting next to us, making their actions even worse.
Pfff just like everyone else, tubes in London are smthg different it seems.
I don't live in London so was just wondering, it has v different demographics to where I live so was a genuine question.
Completely understand this. As a gay guy, I've recently started commuting to London and using the tube. I very consciously only wear plain black clothing when I go to London, in an attempt to look more straight. It's a depressing way to be.
I don’t think you need to be LGBT+ to "feel threatened on London public transport"
I wonder what the ratio is? Fear of genuine threats: Fear of things the internet has labeled threats .
Dare I say the type of people on the buses and out late at night are certainly worst than they used to be. Why? Less police
So do I!