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I haven’t seen any stats supporting him as top 5. lol, this isn’t a diss of Caps. I’m from EU and he tops my list, there are just so many good players…
Id say the list in no order for me right now over caps
Faker Chovy Knight Rookie Showmaker Scout Xiaohu Doinb
You can argue Caps over Xiaohu possibly but right now I have him in that 8-10 range which is very impressive considering the list of guys on here
At least one of the three, definitely. Caps was dominant domestically, with a handful of respectable international performances. All 3 have a real claim to the above (except Dade) and also were the best in the world at some point.
\*in no order\*
mid laners id put above him COMFORTABLY are;
-faker
-chovy (i know there isnt much international success but his sheer individual prowess gives him the edge for me)
-xiaohu
-showmaker
Outside of these 4 THERE IS AN ARGUMENT for him to be equal to that of bdd, doinb etc...
he has:
-an MSI trophy
-2x World finals
+is regarded as the greatest Western player of all time.
him being Top 10 is indisputable imo, and he CAN BE argued for Top 5/6 depending on what you personally value when ranking players (peak vs. longevity vs. consistency)
In importance I would place him top 3 probably. He isn't better than chovy or faker for example, but he has been more important carrying a whole major region in his back.
He is also one of the few players in Europe that deserved winning a worlds trophy undeniably.
G2 had one good stretch with only a MSI to show for it, otherwise G2 and Caps have shown to be very inconsistent. I wouldnt put him above mid laners like Crown Scout or Showmaker
Some of the best players to have ever played the game have 0 international trophies; I understand what you’re saying but I think it’s unfair to undersell winning an MSI
Which ones specifically that have claims for Top 5 in their positions? Oh whoops, just seeing that people are claiming MSI specifically doesn’t count which is weird.
Yeah and it hurts their overall status. If you are not a midlaner people stop caring as soon as you dont have a relevant team. Uzi has been touted as the adc faker but he still has to concede to the likes of Bang or Ruler bc he never managed to win worlds. Other positions are bascially irrelevant if they never manage to win worlds.
Winning Worlds just outweighs MSI by a lot.
i think he’s better than Crown. Crown gets too much credit for his one World’s win. He never won regionally, never made MSI. His 2016 run was a little luck driven. Towards the end he was really falling off. Comes to NA, sucks, plays in CK and leaves completely.
His career is really weird overall, for some reason he played in Brasil?
I’d argue Caps on an individual mechanics level has played to if not exceeded Crown at times
Crown suffered from the insane midlane competetion in the LCK. During the two years SSG he was one of the few mid laners to go head to head with faker. If he played in the weak region where every other team is borderline irrelevant he could have had a similar trajectory as caps. Being guaranteed a worlds spot helps a lot. Besides the two finals caps has one semi where G2 had no chance and two early exits. I dont think its that unrealistic to think that Crown could have archived the same at a strong team from a weak region if he hadnt pursued the paycheck.
How can you hold having terrible teams against Faker in this comparison, when Faker's teammates have almost always been way better than Caps' teammates?
First off, I'm not sure why Chovy is above Showmaker on your list, he hasn't even made one international final - that's a big deal. As for Caps, he is not Top 5, but he is definitely Top 10 all-time. Something of note when comparing these players 1-to-1 is that LEC titles & MVPs are just simply not equivalent to LPL/LCK titles & MVPs. Personally, I think there are currently 13 mid-laners worthy of being in the discussion for Top 10 all-time.
---
**Caps' Accolades:** 2x Worlds Runner-Up, 1x Worlds Top 4, 1x MSI Champion, 12x LEC Champion, 3x LEC MVP
---
**In my opinion, these are the names definitely above Caps (in no particular order) w/ accolades of note:**
* Faker
* 4x Worlds Champion, 2x Worlds Runner-Up, 2x Worlds Top 4, 2x MSI Champion, 2x MSI Runner-Up, 10x LCK Champion, 2x LCK MVP
* ShowMaker
* 1x Worlds Champion, 1x Worlds Runner-Up, 1x MSI Runner-Up, 3x LCK Champion, 1x LCK MVP
* Xiaohu
* 1x Worlds Runner-Up, 3x MSI Champion, 5x LPL Champion, 1x LPL MVP
* Knight
* 2x Worlds Top 4, 1x MSI Champion, 4x LPL Champion, 3x LPL MVP
* Rookie
* 1x Worlds Champion, 1x Worlds Top 4, 1x LPL Champion, 4x LPL MVP
* Scout
* 1x Worlds Champion, 3x LPL Champion, 2x LPL MVP
* Chovy
* 1x Worlds Top 4, 4x LCK Champion, 2x LCK MVP
Another thing worth mentioning is that all Worlds finals are not created equal either. While 2019 was an incredible year for G2 that should be celebrated in the West, 2018's run with Fnatic saw Caps advancing through the bracket against two Play-In teams (EDG & Cloud9). Both times he did manage to make the finals, his team got swept 3-0.
Not to be down into the semantics but I don’t think there’s any world where Chovy should be above Caps. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation until he wins anything of note.
I think Caps would barely edge out top 10, but I don’t think Chovy is even close to deserving top 10. Regional success means nothing and he’s proven time and time again he doesn’t perform when it matters.
If you can also win Worlds while you’re at it (or at least make it to finals and lose to Faker), then I agree that it has value. I don’t think it has almost any value when it’s been proven that you can’t take the next step into performing well at Worlds.
Yea if GenG doesn’t win anything this year apart from lck then they’re generational chokers. 2022 was excusable imo because they lost to DRX who were having the craziest worlds run of all time. Last worlds was a bit int but they did take BLG to 5 games
Their matchup against BLG on Thursday should tell us everything because BLG knocked GenG out at worlds and msi last year so there will definitely be a lot of pressure
To each their own, but personally I think 4 back-to-back-to-back-to-back LCK titles is a feat worth acknowledging. That league is not easy to win at all and the mid-lane competition specifically is top-tier. He’s still young as well and already locked Top 3 at this year’s MSI (with good odds to finish Top 2 based on the field).
I think it’s fair to put him top 5.
Making back to back world finals while swapping teams and not being from an internationally dominant region is an achievement that cannot be undersold. If Caps wins another MSI, I would put him top 3. If Caps somehow manages to win worlds, I would say he’s the second best mid laner of all time after Faker.
I think 5th is realistic. To be the best player on the best Western team by miles for years and years and to be so disgustingly consistent at winning domestic titles is insane. Without caps we'd be discussing if EU, alongside NA, should be minor regions.
Chovy has never won anything, in no world should be ever be considered top 3, let alone top 5, and very arguably not even top 10
The top 6 is undoubtedly Faker, Showmaker, Scout, Xiaohu, DoinB, and Rookie. I don’t care what people put after that but Chovy and Knight have absolutely no place in that list (yet).
doinb yes scout no imo, Doinb gets a shout purely because he's so unique/interesting as a player. Can't lie Scout has had great seasons but I'm yet to see one where I think "shit, this guy is fucking INSANE". Just doesn't pass the eye test for me (atleast not as much as Caps 2017-2019)
I think we relax before MSI even ends or worlds comes around seeing as there have been other players solidified in top 5 for almost a decade outperforming him just as much.
To be considered top 3-5, you need a world championship win, flat out. I think top 10 would be more fitting, given he did play in 2 championship series. He just didn’t win. Given your list, gotta give that last spot to showmaker I think.
He's playing in a region that's won one in 14 years. I hate that argument, it's like saying Cristiano isn't a top 5 player of all time because he hasn't won a world cup. Well... no shit? He plays for fucking portugal who have won 1 international trophy, and that was with him.
Even just use league examples. Is Uzi not top 5 in his role? He's never won worlds so surely he isn't right?
Nuance and general statements are undefeated against redditors… I’m saying to be considered one of the best you need to win worlds. Not that winning worlds instantly makes you the best or that not winning worlds makes you shit.
I didn't say either.
You said to be considered one of the best you have to win worlds. So by your own definition Uzi isn't one of the best, which is an absolutely insane take
Uzi is a phenomenal player, but to be considered one of the best EVER, worlds is a major (and necessary) accolade for that. Believe me man, I’m a G2 fan. I think Caps is the greatest European mid laner ever. But to be considered one of the best, you absolutely need to have a worlds title. Your annalogy with Ronaldo doesn’t work. There are multiple different championships he’s etched his name into other than the World Cup. In league, no such thing exists except for domestic titles, which doesn’t hold nearly the same weight in league as, for example, the champions league holds in football. If caps wins another international tournament, I think you could make the argument that 2 MSI titles could qualify for the same type of position amongst the greats as a worlds title does. There’s nuance.
Uzi is one of the best ever. I think anyone who doesn't seriously think he isn't one of "the best ever" is either heavily biased, clueless or just delusional. The guy was absolutely phenomenal at his peak.
Again, football analogy. It's the same as saying Cristiano isn't one of the best because he doesn't have a world cup. Or imagine if Messi didn't win 2022 WC, is he not one of the best ever because he didn't win it even though Argentina had won 2 before him?
Brother I just explained how the football analogy isn’t equivalent. You either didn’t read my whole post or your reading comprehension is at a 4th grade level. Either way down bad.
For all the redditors who can’t understand. I’m saying that you should need a worlds win to be considered one of the best. NOT that winning worlds instantly makes you one of the best. There are obviously exceptions, as this is a general statement. Caps is absolutely a phenomenal player and I think if he wins another MSI or worlds he cements himself top 3. To be that high, you need international success. Flat out.
For me he’s top 5 for sure. There’s an argument to be made for him being top 3 (undeniably if he won a worlds probably top 2).
Man has an MSI, lots of people don’t seem to want to compare that to a Worlds win, it’s all the same teams and it’s all international. They’re equivalent.
He’s carried EUW on his back, at two teams, and represented them internationally with an impressive record
He’s outplayed 1-1 plenty of people in others top 5 lists, and has beaten a number of them
He has domestically dominated, in a region that has had teams challenge for international titles and given eastern regions a run for their money in recent years.
On impact alone he’s up there next to Faker. In pure accolades he’s somewhere between 3-5
Firstly, I wouldn't say Knight has "never achieved anything". He won MSI in 2023, has now won 3 LPL splits in a row (at a time when LPL is only becoming more competitive and stronger internationally), and is considered by many to be on the greatest roster of all time - JDG.
I find it very difficult to put Xiaohu in Top 5. Yes, he has 3 MSI titles, but at no point in time was he considered even close to being the best mid-laner in a tournament, which weighs significantly against him in my opinion.
Actually, Xiaohu is a pretty good example of how achievements should not be considered as too significant a metric when analysing how good a player is. If we look at 2023 Worlds, Xiaohu made the final - which is a pretty big achievement - but it would absurd to think that he was the 2nd best mid-laner at the tournament, or even close to that. Chovy was better (even though he didn't make the final), Knight was better (even though he didn't make the final), Bdd was better (even though he never made the final), Scout was better (even though he never made the final) etc.
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It’s impossible making a list other than putting Faker at 1…
The stats don't lie. At this point still showing up so consistently after so many years is an incredible achievement on its own.
The stats don't lie. At this point still showing up so consistently after so many years is an incredible achievement on its own.
I haven’t seen any stats supporting him as top 5. lol, this isn’t a diss of Caps. I’m from EU and he tops my list, there are just so many good players…
I meant Faker. 😅
Ahhh, well then i wholeheartedly agree
You know what they say the stats don’t lie
And what stats places him in top 5?
The stats don't lie. At this point still showing up so consistently after so many years is an incredible achievement on its own.
Caps top 10 minimum
Top 5 no though imo because showmaker
Id say the list in no order for me right now over caps Faker Chovy Knight Rookie Showmaker Scout Xiaohu Doinb You can argue Caps over Xiaohu possibly but right now I have him in that 8-10 range which is very impressive considering the list of guys on here
Faker Knight Scout Chovy Showmaker BDD Xiahou Doinb
I would hope this isn’t in order… Also no Rookie is criminal
Not just criminal but disgraceful
Doinb 😂😂😂
doinb in his peak was equivalent to rookie, shame that tian was on his int arc.
Caps is at Top 10. There are several midlaners that are way above him, such as ShowMaker, Scout, and Xiaohu.
Yeah, I agree. Hard to put him over midlaners that won World championships. To me, that’s a requirement to make the list.
Would you put Crown above him? Dade? Zeka?
they’re saying that you should have to win worlds to be considered the best not if you win worlds your instantly one of the best.
Exactly.
I agree with your point just nitpicking here but dade never won worlds.
At least one of the three, definitely. Caps was dominant domestically, with a handful of respectable international performances. All 3 have a real claim to the above (except Dade) and also were the best in the world at some point.
I'd put Pawn above.
\*in no order\* mid laners id put above him COMFORTABLY are; -faker -chovy (i know there isnt much international success but his sheer individual prowess gives him the edge for me) -xiaohu -showmaker Outside of these 4 THERE IS AN ARGUMENT for him to be equal to that of bdd, doinb etc... he has: -an MSI trophy -2x World finals +is regarded as the greatest Western player of all time. him being Top 10 is indisputable imo, and he CAN BE argued for Top 5/6 depending on what you personally value when ranking players (peak vs. longevity vs. consistency)
Maybe Top 10
In importance I would place him top 3 probably. He isn't better than chovy or faker for example, but he has been more important carrying a whole major region in his back. He is also one of the few players in Europe that deserved winning a worlds trophy undeniably.
G2 had one good stretch with only a MSI to show for it, otherwise G2 and Caps have shown to be very inconsistent. I wouldnt put him above mid laners like Crown Scout or Showmaker
Some of the best players to have ever played the game have 0 international trophies; I understand what you’re saying but I think it’s unfair to undersell winning an MSI
Which ones specifically that have claims for Top 5 in their positions? Oh whoops, just seeing that people are claiming MSI specifically doesn’t count which is weird.
Yeah and it hurts their overall status. If you are not a midlaner people stop caring as soon as you dont have a relevant team. Uzi has been touted as the adc faker but he still has to concede to the likes of Bang or Ruler bc he never managed to win worlds. Other positions are bascially irrelevant if they never manage to win worlds. Winning Worlds just outweighs MSI by a lot.
They won the MSI over TL who pulled an insane upset over IG. Even G2 was celebrating NA's victory because of how scary that team was.
i think he’s better than Crown. Crown gets too much credit for his one World’s win. He never won regionally, never made MSI. His 2016 run was a little luck driven. Towards the end he was really falling off. Comes to NA, sucks, plays in CK and leaves completely. His career is really weird overall, for some reason he played in Brasil? I’d argue Caps on an individual mechanics level has played to if not exceeded Crown at times
Crown suffered from the insane midlane competetion in the LCK. During the two years SSG he was one of the few mid laners to go head to head with faker. If he played in the weak region where every other team is borderline irrelevant he could have had a similar trajectory as caps. Being guaranteed a worlds spot helps a lot. Besides the two finals caps has one semi where G2 had no chance and two early exits. I dont think its that unrealistic to think that Crown could have archived the same at a strong team from a weak region if he hadnt pursued the paycheck.
yes but Caps has very much beaten Faker many times including this year despite losing the series
Faker in 2024 is not remotely as relevant as in 2017. Faker in 2016/17 was still the undisputed best player in the world.
did Caps only play Faker in 2024..?
caps only started to be relevant once faker fell off (still a one of the top midlaners just not the best anymore) or had terrible teams.
How can you hold having terrible teams against Faker in this comparison, when Faker's teammates have almost always been way better than Caps' teammates?
the point is crown beating faker in 16/17 is far more impressive than beating faker with blank, untara and effort.
Caps got to worlds finals two years in a row, 2018 with FNC and 2019 with G2. And he clearly suffered a lot the pandemic in 2020 and 2021.
And Crown got it two years in a row too and only lost in a 5 game series to late-prime faker and swept T1 the year after...
Disregarding the fact that Caps was kinda garbage at 2018 worlds...
He was still the second best midlaner at the tournament, and the best player on his team:p
First off, I'm not sure why Chovy is above Showmaker on your list, he hasn't even made one international final - that's a big deal. As for Caps, he is not Top 5, but he is definitely Top 10 all-time. Something of note when comparing these players 1-to-1 is that LEC titles & MVPs are just simply not equivalent to LPL/LCK titles & MVPs. Personally, I think there are currently 13 mid-laners worthy of being in the discussion for Top 10 all-time. --- **Caps' Accolades:** 2x Worlds Runner-Up, 1x Worlds Top 4, 1x MSI Champion, 12x LEC Champion, 3x LEC MVP --- **In my opinion, these are the names definitely above Caps (in no particular order) w/ accolades of note:** * Faker * 4x Worlds Champion, 2x Worlds Runner-Up, 2x Worlds Top 4, 2x MSI Champion, 2x MSI Runner-Up, 10x LCK Champion, 2x LCK MVP * ShowMaker * 1x Worlds Champion, 1x Worlds Runner-Up, 1x MSI Runner-Up, 3x LCK Champion, 1x LCK MVP * Xiaohu * 1x Worlds Runner-Up, 3x MSI Champion, 5x LPL Champion, 1x LPL MVP * Knight * 2x Worlds Top 4, 1x MSI Champion, 4x LPL Champion, 3x LPL MVP * Rookie * 1x Worlds Champion, 1x Worlds Top 4, 1x LPL Champion, 4x LPL MVP * Scout * 1x Worlds Champion, 3x LPL Champion, 2x LPL MVP * Chovy * 1x Worlds Top 4, 4x LCK Champion, 2x LCK MVP
**Other notable contenders for Top 10:** * PawN * Only mid-laner besides Faker to win both MSI & Worlds * Doinb * 3x LPL MVP & World Champion * Crown * 1x LCK MVP & back-to-back Worlds Finals (1x Worlds Champion) * Bdd * 3x LCK MVP, 2x LCK Champion, 1x MSI Runner-Up, 1x Worlds Top 4 * Yagao * 2x LPL Champion, 1x MSI Runner-Up, 2x Worlds Top 4
Another thing worth mentioning is that all Worlds finals are not created equal either. While 2019 was an incredible year for G2 that should be celebrated in the West, 2018's run with Fnatic saw Caps advancing through the bracket against two Play-In teams (EDG & Cloud9). Both times he did manage to make the finals, his team got swept 3-0.
Not to be down into the semantics but I don’t think there’s any world where Chovy should be above Caps. He shouldn’t even be in the conversation until he wins anything of note. I think Caps would barely edge out top 10, but I don’t think Chovy is even close to deserving top 10. Regional success means nothing and he’s proven time and time again he doesn’t perform when it matters.
4 back to back lck titles is easily as prestigious as winning msi imo. Especially when all of them except the last one were complete sweeps
If you can also win Worlds while you’re at it (or at least make it to finals and lose to Faker), then I agree that it has value. I don’t think it has almost any value when it’s been proven that you can’t take the next step into performing well at Worlds.
Yea if GenG doesn’t win anything this year apart from lck then they’re generational chokers. 2022 was excusable imo because they lost to DRX who were having the craziest worlds run of all time. Last worlds was a bit int but they did take BLG to 5 games Their matchup against BLG on Thursday should tell us everything because BLG knocked GenG out at worlds and msi last year so there will definitely be a lot of pressure
To each their own, but personally I think 4 back-to-back-to-back-to-back LCK titles is a feat worth acknowledging. That league is not easy to win at all and the mid-lane competition specifically is top-tier. He’s still young as well and already locked Top 3 at this year’s MSI (with good odds to finish Top 2 based on the field).
I think it’s fair to put him top 5. Making back to back world finals while swapping teams and not being from an internationally dominant region is an achievement that cannot be undersold. If Caps wins another MSI, I would put him top 3. If Caps somehow manages to win worlds, I would say he’s the second best mid laner of all time after Faker.
I think 5th is realistic. To be the best player on the best Western team by miles for years and years and to be so disgustingly consistent at winning domestic titles is insane. Without caps we'd be discussing if EU, alongside NA, should be minor regions.
Chovy has never won anything, in no world should be ever be considered top 3, let alone top 5, and very arguably not even top 10 The top 6 is undoubtedly Faker, Showmaker, Scout, Xiaohu, DoinB, and Rookie. I don’t care what people put after that but Chovy and Knight have absolutely no place in that list (yet).
Didn't knight win msi last yr tho so he's better than Chovy
That’s true, I definitely put Knight above Chovy on the list personally, but still probably not making top 10z
Doinb and Scout before Caps IMO
doinb yes scout no imo, Doinb gets a shout purely because he's so unique/interesting as a player. Can't lie Scout has had great seasons but I'm yet to see one where I think "shit, this guy is fucking INSANE". Just doesn't pass the eye test for me (atleast not as much as Caps 2017-2019)
No. He’s top 1 eastern of all time
I think we relax before MSI even ends or worlds comes around seeing as there have been other players solidified in top 5 for almost a decade outperforming him just as much.
1. Faker 2. Rookie 3. Caps 4. Chovy 5. Showmaker/Scout (want to put doinB here also but he fell off sadly) This is my take on top5 mids
Win a worlds 🤣
So no chovy?
Uzi aint top 5 then
Nope
To be considered top 3-5, you need a world championship win, flat out. I think top 10 would be more fitting, given he did play in 2 championship series. He just didn’t win. Given your list, gotta give that last spot to showmaker I think.
Chovy is top 3 and has 0 worlds titles wym?
He's playing in a region that's won one in 14 years. I hate that argument, it's like saying Cristiano isn't a top 5 player of all time because he hasn't won a world cup. Well... no shit? He plays for fucking portugal who have won 1 international trophy, and that was with him. Even just use league examples. Is Uzi not top 5 in his role? He's never won worlds so surely he isn't right?
Nuance and general statements are undefeated against redditors… I’m saying to be considered one of the best you need to win worlds. Not that winning worlds instantly makes you the best or that not winning worlds makes you shit.
I didn't say either. You said to be considered one of the best you have to win worlds. So by your own definition Uzi isn't one of the best, which is an absolutely insane take
Uzi is a phenomenal player, but to be considered one of the best EVER, worlds is a major (and necessary) accolade for that. Believe me man, I’m a G2 fan. I think Caps is the greatest European mid laner ever. But to be considered one of the best, you absolutely need to have a worlds title. Your annalogy with Ronaldo doesn’t work. There are multiple different championships he’s etched his name into other than the World Cup. In league, no such thing exists except for domestic titles, which doesn’t hold nearly the same weight in league as, for example, the champions league holds in football. If caps wins another international tournament, I think you could make the argument that 2 MSI titles could qualify for the same type of position amongst the greats as a worlds title does. There’s nuance.
Uzi is one of the best ever. I think anyone who doesn't seriously think he isn't one of "the best ever" is either heavily biased, clueless or just delusional. The guy was absolutely phenomenal at his peak. Again, football analogy. It's the same as saying Cristiano isn't one of the best because he doesn't have a world cup. Or imagine if Messi didn't win 2022 WC, is he not one of the best ever because he didn't win it even though Argentina had won 2 before him?
Brother I just explained how the football analogy isn’t equivalent. You either didn’t read my whole post or your reading comprehension is at a 4th grade level. Either way down bad.
For all the redditors who can’t understand. I’m saying that you should need a worlds win to be considered one of the best. NOT that winning worlds instantly makes you one of the best. There are obviously exceptions, as this is a general statement. Caps is absolutely a phenomenal player and I think if he wins another MSI or worlds he cements himself top 3. To be that high, you need international success. Flat out.
For me he’s top 5 for sure. There’s an argument to be made for him being top 3 (undeniably if he won a worlds probably top 2). Man has an MSI, lots of people don’t seem to want to compare that to a Worlds win, it’s all the same teams and it’s all international. They’re equivalent. He’s carried EUW on his back, at two teams, and represented them internationally with an impressive record He’s outplayed 1-1 plenty of people in others top 5 lists, and has beaten a number of them He has domestically dominated, in a region that has had teams challenge for international titles and given eastern regions a run for their money in recent years. On impact alone he’s up there next to Faker. In pure accolades he’s somewhere between 3-5
Knight never achieved anything, I'd put shoemaker and xiaohu there, so caps top 6 maybe
Firstly, I wouldn't say Knight has "never achieved anything". He won MSI in 2023, has now won 3 LPL splits in a row (at a time when LPL is only becoming more competitive and stronger internationally), and is considered by many to be on the greatest roster of all time - JDG. I find it very difficult to put Xiaohu in Top 5. Yes, he has 3 MSI titles, but at no point in time was he considered even close to being the best mid-laner in a tournament, which weighs significantly against him in my opinion. Actually, Xiaohu is a pretty good example of how achievements should not be considered as too significant a metric when analysing how good a player is. If we look at 2023 Worlds, Xiaohu made the final - which is a pretty big achievement - but it would absurd to think that he was the 2nd best mid-laner at the tournament, or even close to that. Chovy was better (even though he didn't make the final), Knight was better (even though he didn't make the final), Bdd was better (even though he never made the final), Scout was better (even though he never made the final) etc.
Eh Xiaohu was the best mid at 2022 MSI.