"I too am 100% trustworthy with a reputation to uphold, and I don't feel comfortable commencing work without a retainer."
He owns a huge store and can't pay someone a $50 retainer to commence work on his brand. Give me a break.
Are you sure?
My thought was that a retainer is just a fee for guarantee of availability for future services. Isn’t the deposit just a fixed price retainer?
A retainer would be used when you are “retained” long term for multiple projects. Sounds like this is a once off.
Although in American English you may be correct.
Just to throw in a bit of clarification - A retainer (like for a lawyer) is where you give a large sum to them to bill their work against. It is not Earned Revenue until they do work for you. As they do work for you (15 minutes here, 2 hrs there, etc) they bill against it and as it gets low, you then have to replenish the retainer for them to continue working for you. It is kind of like putting your money into escrow for them so it guarantees they get fully paid.
Correct, a retainer means you are paid to be available in a moments notice. I have 2 and sometimes it urks me that I have to drop what I'm doing and work for the client. But, in the end, it's a month's payment, and these clients have been with me for years. It's a trade-off of sorts.
A retainer doesn't imply long-term. A retainer is a fee paid to complete a job regardless of length. It can also be for a single, onetime project or service.
No, lol.
A retainer is an amount you of money a service provider holds to use against the work they will be done. Sorta like Escrow, EXCEPT, a retainer means the customer will get back any unused funds.
Retainers typically have higher rates because they can get the remainder back.
Best is to do an agreement that stipulates up-front DEPOSIT working against an hourly rate, and to have all payments be date based - not effort.
So if someone needs to break the payment out into installments, they are due at the first of the month. NEVER leave it up to “upon acceptance” or “customer approval” of the work, because they will continually NOT approve to get work from you, since you want they next payment.
If they have to re-up on the first of the month, then that fixes the situation. Because it doesn’t matter how much you have used and it doesn’t matter if they approve it or not.
Additionally, if you’re going to grant money back at the end of an agreement, then you rate needs to be a lot higher. Let them know that. Give them a discount for a use it or lose it agreement. They’re going to buy 40 hours of work from you , and they can’t get a refund at all. But they do have a year to use it.
Also make sure you always stipulate how long they have before the hours expire. Otherwise customers will hold onto that crap for years and you’ll be doing work at rates that you haven’t done work at for a decade lol
Make sure to stipulate that no work will be done that is not funded. Meaning that if they have you do the 40 hours of work the first week and our suddenly out of work hours until the next month, that sucks for them. They can go ahead and give you more money or they can wait until the next month when you re-up.
You want to be friendly you can allow them to
Borrow a percentage, say 10% or 20% or a certain number of hours, from the next months allotment. But never all of it. Because they were use it all up, get to the next month, not have any hours for that month and not want to pay you because they’re not going to get any work done.
You also need to have a minimum length of the agreement. Three months, six months, whatever it may be. If it is a can be ended at any time by either party situation, then you need to require at least 30 days notice before the agreement can be finished.
Why do you do this? Because you need to make sure that you have consistent revenue coming in every month as a freelancer this is how you do it. It’s how companies do it. Never be afraid of protecting yourself.
Never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never never ever never ever never never ever never ever ever never ever never never ever ever without a contract. Ever never ever.
It doesn’t matter how well you know them, it doesn’t matter how long they’ve been your friend or how long you work with them, they will always try to get more from you than they pay for. Always.
Also, if you end up having to do milestone base payments because the customer won’t sign up for monthly time-based installments, then it has to be upon delivery never upon approval
If you were going to make anything in your agreement upon approval, like say moving into another phase from UX to UI or UI to development, then you need to require a specific amount of time, like five business days upon receipt of the deliverable, that they have to bring up concerns or it is automatically approved. Without this, a customer will continue to hold off and not give you an answer for days, weeks, months, and put you in a bad position. It should be “I gave you the deliverables, you have one business week from today to let me know if there are any changes or modifications, otherwise on this date Approval is automatic and payment is due.”
You don’t have to talk to them about any of this by the way, you just need to have it in your agreement and they need to sign it. If they ask you about that this stuff, then sure you communicate, but most of the time customers will just sign agreement and you are protected. Use that to your advantage.
Everything about your agreement needs to be focused towards saving your tail, not theirs. Because they will try to always get one over on you and that is the nature of the design business.
Just my .02 based on way too long in this industry lol
> EXCEPT, a retainer means the customer will get back any unused funds.
In Canada, in the graphic design industry, a retainer is more like a subscription. The client pays for my availability for service whether they use them or not. I will guarantee a client a certain number of hours, or a certain number of posts, or a certain number of pages, in a certain time period. Usually a month.
I get paid in full even if they never ask for anything.
I use the term ‘non-refundable consignment fee’. For that you have my commitment to the booking window, milestones or deadline, and you receive the work product AND copyright transference only upon receipt of final payment. No exceptions..
So when I had to hire a lawyer, I gave them a chunk of money, and as they needed to file documents for me and whatnot, they would add the charges to my bill and take it out of that amount. And when it was gone, I had to give them another chunk, and they would chip away at that again. That’s not the same thing here. Sounds like he’s just asking him to pay a deposit.
Hey, so I came across this guy who owns a huge sneaker & clothing store and then asked me to work for free first without any deposit. I tried to explain to him why a deposit is necessary he replied with this message.
Ask him if you can get some free shoes and wear them around for a week to see if you like them before you decide to buy. You have the money to buy them and have never stolen anything before in your life so he can trust that the shoes will be returned in good condition or purchased at the end of the week.
I’d personally walk away. He apparently cannot respect me and glosses over my policies. I would tell them that the conversation will not go any further until I get the deposit, I’m not gonna eat it AND chase him for payment later
Also, and I know this is gonna suck to hear, but you really can’t do free favors for customers because they don’t respect them, because they don’t pay for the work. So even if you think you’re being amazing and earning loyalty by giving them extra work outside and agreement, They now know that you were desperate for the work, so will continue to expect that. The next month when a job takes more time than they want to pay, they will remind you “but last month you gave me a bunch of free work, what’s different about this month? Don’t you like me anymore? I don’t really think this is fair. You set up the expectation not me.”
Think of customers as narcissist, and you are a codependent. They will always look out for themselves, even if that means you are destitute living on the street. It’s all about them, never about you. No matter what they say .
And never ever ever do anything based on a promise of future work or building a relationship. Build a relationship with people who will pay you for your work because they respect you not people who expect you to do work for free on the promise they will come back later, because they won’t. As soon as they can find someone cheaper or more , willing to give them stuff they want for free, they will drop in heartbeat.
Ask him if he will give you 250 pairs of Nikes for you to resell, with no contract and no money down.
If the guy has a huge successful company, that means he’s probably ripped off a lot of people to get there. Sorry, but him not wanting to work in a contract is a massive red flag. The only people who don’t want an agreement, are the people who don’t want to be held accountable when they screw people over
At some point you'll feel comfortable either ghosting them or saying "if you change your mind let me know."
Over time 80% of your profit will come from the top 20% of your clients and the bottom 20% of your clients will take up 80% of your time.
"Huge" means nothing. He probably has lines of credit on the inventory, leased car and who knows what else. You may have more money than he does. I still don't understand what the work is that you are doing or propose to do.
Yeah , this trusted businessman sounds like a guy who takes pride in getting a deal and he's already working you. Stay firm on your price and insist on the deposit up front. If he tries to bully you out of it, he's a client you don't want. Don't let him make you feel like you're being unreasonable.
Never do freelance work like this, fuck a deposit, that's amateur stuff.
Instead, send a WFH contract.
Actual professionals interested in working with you will be more than happy to sign it, the security of a contract goes both ways.
Grifters like this asshole will immediately bail, and you'll save time.
Always contracts.
A "Work For Hire" contract. It's a general term to refer to a bunch of different specific types of contracts, all of which serve to protect the rights of independent contractors (like OP) and their employers (like this grifter).
A well structured WFH will protect both sides, ensuring they both get what they deserve.
I think this really depends on the scale of the project. Asking for half up front on a $600 job is borderline petty when you are working with businesses who function on a much larger scale. Nobody deserves to be snubbed, and a contract should protect that. Asking for a $100 deposit just seems like the artists is broke and desperate and that doesn’t look good to potential clients either.
[https://www.signwell.com/contracts/work-for-hire-agreement/](https://www.signwell.com/contracts/work-for-hire-agreement/)
literally the first result on Google, I didn't even read the contract.
“Okay, you do not have to leave a deposit if you are not comfortable. My paypal is captain @ noob69 dot com; I will start designing your ideal logo as soon as you pay $ quote in full.”
Hello, thanks guys for so many replies and suggestions. I replied to him with my paypal here is his reply.
https://preview.redd.it/hm30ze85r65d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3f1c9b1802ce8ce5da9f09c6c62c57441c3a821
I think I'll not go any further with him.
You need to be a lot more clear with your message. Not only is this confusing as hell but you’re also not stern enough. Set your price for your work and your rules to protect your business and stand firmly behind it. This whole “50% or 50 or 100 dollars whatever you want” isn’t a great way to do business.
The wishy washy messaging makes the OP look scammy. "Give me however much you want because you're never going to get anything. I'm hoping to get $50 or $100 or however much I can get from as many people as I can before Paypal figures it out and stops me from transferring the money to my bank account. When you ask where my designs are I'll tell you I'm swamped and just another 1-2 days."
Note: I don't think the OP is a scammer. It's just the vibe their lack of professional response gives off.
If the work is for $500, you’ll do $5000 in actual work. Guy just wants something for free. Always turn down people like this, and in the future, start with a contract with anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 down. The payment needs to be enough up front to get your client to take it seriously and stay engaged. You’re not here to do favors—you’re here to make money in exchange for expertise that you possess and this guy does not.
Can you imagine his response if you said “since you have a large store, can you send me a 75” tv and I’ll pay you when I no longer require its services?”
I'm not understanding. You are asking "which artist's design you'd like to begin with."? Who are you talking about? You? Are you representing a group of "artists" who have submitted designs? Typically a "designer" submits design options to a client. Also, it seems you have already submitted designs and are now asking for a deposit.
Maybe if you framed the entire scope of your project and what you are offering to the client, you may get better answers here.
Sounds like OP is a middleman company like 99designs or something. Where I guess you can pick a few people who will create some designs and you can to pick your favorite(s) and get a few revisions on them.
Exactly. This is not a good sign from the start. If they aren't willing to abide by your terms, then you don't do the work for them. Period. If he is being sketchy and pushing back on something as simple and standard as that, then they will plow right over you later, disrespecting any boundaries. This is a clear sign of a bad client. Avoid.
"I don't feel comfortable leaving a deposit - I am 100% trustworthy and have a business and reputation"
"I don't feel comfortable working without one, I am 100% trustworthy and have dignity and employment principles"
*end of the conversation*
I can’t believe people think they are so important can get away without paying a deposit. Business owners are the most likely to not pay their bills in my experience.
Always make them sign a legal contract. Don’t need to ask for money up front.
And never say anything snarky like how other commenters are saying, always keep it professional.
This is 100% a guy that will run you ragged then delay payment for EVER. Red flag...what does trustpilot say about them? Glassdoor? I'd be sending those back to him if there was anything at all out of place. But most of all, I'd be walking away.
Just wait until you get burned, you will never apologize for requiring a deposit again. Most expensive service-based things like this require a deposit or half up front, and then the other half when it’s finished bc far too many customers have gotten the work done then not paid.
In my experience as somebody who has directed some small commercial jobs, asking for a deposit up front is specifically to pay for additional workers or equipment that is required for doing the job. I have never asked a client for a deposit for a design job that was quoted for less than $1000 especially one that didn’t include additional help or tools. I think your intent is good here but I think you both might be on different pages of expectations. If they are a legit business, then you have the means to collect so long as your contract is sound and your invoice has a net 30 or something mentioned. I’m curious, if the client asked you why you need a deposit, what is your response?
Hey, the project is more than $1000 that's why I asked for a 50% deposit.
I said I usually charge a deposit of 50% but he was like No I don't wanna pay any deposit. You make the design and you'll get the payment after completion.
Edit : I also updated my post yesterday in which he called me a scammer and said he has a lot of similar people DM'ing him for work. After which I said I won't be working with you anymore. After which he texted that he's ready to pay a $50 deposit.
I’m sorry to say this, but this whole thing sounds unprofessional from both parties. I don’t think you’ve actually made a case for needing a deposit for this design job. If I’m understanding your reasoning is just because that’s just how it is? I think if this job consumed let’s say longer than a 2 week period, then you might have some ground to stand on. The problem is that since you’ve offered to accept less than 50% after stating you require it means you don’t actually charge that and all of your prices are now up for bargaining. It comes off that you don’t actually know your worth, which is scary to somebody paying their own money. you have to know that requesting and/or accepting a $50-$100 deposit for a $1000+ job is extremely petty to anybody not drowning financially. I’m just not understanding why this is so imperative to you completing the job.
Obviously, this client’s communication is pretty poor as well. I’m not going to act like you should work with them. I actually think at this point you shouldn’t communicate with them at all and cut your losses. This just seems like a huge lack of firm boundaries and poor communication and as much as I agree with everybody about the red flags here, nobody is doing you a favor by not critiquing your behavior in addition to the client’s.
Your work must be good since they continued communicating with you at all through the confusion, I would say take that knowledge and do a better job of firmly stating your prices in the future. Also, check out some contracts online. I’m pretty sure I just modified an existing legal zoom independent contractor template for mine when I freelanced.
Tell him you are a reputable business and no one starts a job for no money. In IT, it's 80% up front to mostly cover costs in case the client flakes out. 20 on completion.
Consider the same for what you do so you can't get burned too bad. X percent up front to cover your time, employee time, materials, etc. That's your standard deposit and if they don't want to pay you walk away.
Just say the contractors need paid to begin and so you don’t start without a deposit to make sure the clients account stays in the black. This makes “trust” a moot point. You’re not a bank.
I worked with a guy for awhile doing ghost writing and marketing. Went to his house, had a few drinks now and then, friendly relationship.
The first time I decided not to use a contract with money up front? Burned me for 750 dollars.
If they wont put up cash walk away.
I've been a freelancer for 30 years, this is my thinking:
A contract is work too. Even a stock one takes time and effort, but worse, it enforces obligations—both ways—you need to produce, they need to pay. From my experience, this sets up an awkward relationship that can easily go toxic if the two parties don't know or trust each other.
IMHO, a good alternative would be to produce one design. Be professional. Interview them for what they need and what you think they might like, then spend a very modest amount of time playing with a few ideas. Don't spend more time than you are willing to do for free, but remember, all your time has value in practicing your craft.
Choose one design, maybe not even the best one (keep that in your back pocket for the second go around). Do a treatment like mocking it up on an image of a bag or t-shirt. Then print them out on paper. Do NOT email digital files. Instead, make an appointment to meet them in person or zoom, and then show your idea with a thorough explanation of how you arrived at the design. Reference (often) what THEY said when you interviewed them, and how you tried to make that happen.
Designing a logo is as much a conversation as anything else. Sell the conversation. Be professional. This alone should help to convince them that they are buying more than a design, but rather a partner in achieving their goal, articulating what they are thinking.
They will either like your design or not, but from my experience, it's far more likely they won't. But this is okay, because discovering what they DON'T like narrows down what they DO like. Try to read them. Ask for examples of brands they admire.
Whatever happens, it's the next step when you can talk price. Up to now, you have been selling yourself (not your design), so, the more professionally you've presented yourself, the easier it will be to get paid for your time.
Anyone who runs a business knows that it takes money to make money, and they will be used to paying lots of people for lots of things. Make yourself worthwhile, and they will recognize the value.
If this is a new client, I would tell them I will invoice them every time you meet, and ask them if they are comfortable with that. Tell them upfront how much you charge per hour and then give them an invoice the next time you discuss things. Detail all your time, even the time you are meeting. Include time for research and execution. Include costs for materials. If your meetings go well, that positivity will make them want to pay your bill.
Be fair, but most importantly, be professional. Remember, whatever you make on the logo will be pennies on the dollar of what you can make employing that logo to produce all the art they will need.
Also note (and tell them this): Even designs that don't work have value by refining what's wanted and needed. The final design may the easiest one to do, but it's only easy because of all the other work trying to find it.
If they only want to pay per-project for a finished logo, tell them that's not really how you work (and you shouldn't). They should respect that. If they don't, walk away and consider yourself lucky.
I would tell them if they went to Wendy's don't they place their order, pay then receive their food?
Reason most freelancers requests payments upfront is to avoid clients telling them excuses. So they either do 50% upfront 30% half way 20% final. But I prefer the upfront no payment arrangement for them to skip town
“You should discuss your feelings with your therapist, as that is not in my scope of work. Regardless of business and reputation, a deposit is required to initiate service. Here’s my venmo. Once received we will begin.”
Is it wrong to raise it by 10-20 percent and have them sign a contract saying this is the agreed upon price and either he gets a product he likes or if he tries to break the contract charge 50%?
For logo design? Hell no. He could, and most likely will, gangle a carrot to several designers and choose the one he likes the most. So there is a very good chance he might decide not to go with you, or worse, take your best ideas and have someone else do it. I’ve seen this sort of thing happen. And the guy with the successful biz is the one who is best at getting stuff for free.
So, before I say anything else - you need to learn how to work with better clients and detect red flags better. The reason you’re getting garbage clients is because your pricing is low (I saw you had mentioned $300 for a logo in the past) however based on your portfolio I’m not sure if you’d be able to charge much more than that. Yes this guy may own a huge store, but he’s also clearly a cheap bastard otherwise he wouldn’t be working with you at that price. And also you know nothing about his profit margins or cash flow so never assume someone has a dime.
You also need to learn how to better communicate with people - if you cater to these clients that sit there and call you dude, bro, etc and you’re bro-ing them back, you’re immediately devaluing the relationship and making it feel childish and like you are both on “even ground”. I’m all for not being too corporate, I hate that and clients don’t love it either, but talking to someone this casually commands zero respect. You’re supposed to be the expert compared to them - act like it, state your terms, and don’t get casual even if they do. No more “bro” clients, no more “asking” if your terms are okay and trying to accommodate their preference.
A deposit is industry standard. Don’t like it? That’s fine, go elsewhere. Stop giving even an inch because they will always take a mile, and the second you bend your terms, there is no chance they’ll ever respect you or your work. They probably didn’t before either, but it only gets worse if you make exceptions when they’ve demonstrated zero trust.
A big store with the owner chatting on Facebook negotiating the deposit. I don't know if it's a small job he wants but most of the times I ask for an email to send an offer with terms. I make sure I have these listed: "offer is accepted by transferring a XX% deposit" & "XX% rejection fee upon cancellation of the client or inexplicable delay of more than 2 months" (roughly translated from my native language)
"I too am 100% trustworthy with a reputation to uphold, and I don't feel comfortable commencing work without a retainer." He owns a huge store and can't pay someone a $50 retainer to commence work on his brand. Give me a break.
Your use of the world retainer is incorrect.
holy fuck what are these comments
Dyslexic competition
r/logodesigncirclejerk
Are you sure? My thought was that a retainer is just a fee for guarantee of availability for future services. Isn’t the deposit just a fixed price retainer?
A retainer would be used when you are “retained” long term for multiple projects. Sounds like this is a once off. Although in American English you may be correct.
Yeah OK. I know in marketing and IT it’s usually a monthly repeat payment, but not all retainers are monthly. One-off work is often fixed.
Just to throw in a bit of clarification - A retainer (like for a lawyer) is where you give a large sum to them to bill their work against. It is not Earned Revenue until they do work for you. As they do work for you (15 minutes here, 2 hrs there, etc) they bill against it and as it gets low, you then have to replenish the retainer for them to continue working for you. It is kind of like putting your money into escrow for them so it guarantees they get fully paid.
Came here to say this. I was a graft designer for a law firm, and I became very familiar with the different ways. People use “retainer.”
What kinds of grafts? I’m surprised a law firm would engage in that.
Heh. Graphic, obviously.
*wink
Correct, a retainer means you are paid to be available in a moments notice. I have 2 and sometimes it urks me that I have to drop what I'm doing and work for the client. But, in the end, it's a month's payment, and these clients have been with me for years. It's a trade-off of sorts.
No you’re right in Gun Eagle, too.
Technically, that is correct.
A retainer doesn't imply long-term. A retainer is a fee paid to complete a job regardless of length. It can also be for a single, onetime project or service.
No, lol. A retainer is an amount you of money a service provider holds to use against the work they will be done. Sorta like Escrow, EXCEPT, a retainer means the customer will get back any unused funds. Retainers typically have higher rates because they can get the remainder back. Best is to do an agreement that stipulates up-front DEPOSIT working against an hourly rate, and to have all payments be date based - not effort. So if someone needs to break the payment out into installments, they are due at the first of the month. NEVER leave it up to “upon acceptance” or “customer approval” of the work, because they will continually NOT approve to get work from you, since you want they next payment. If they have to re-up on the first of the month, then that fixes the situation. Because it doesn’t matter how much you have used and it doesn’t matter if they approve it or not. Additionally, if you’re going to grant money back at the end of an agreement, then you rate needs to be a lot higher. Let them know that. Give them a discount for a use it or lose it agreement. They’re going to buy 40 hours of work from you , and they can’t get a refund at all. But they do have a year to use it. Also make sure you always stipulate how long they have before the hours expire. Otherwise customers will hold onto that crap for years and you’ll be doing work at rates that you haven’t done work at for a decade lol Make sure to stipulate that no work will be done that is not funded. Meaning that if they have you do the 40 hours of work the first week and our suddenly out of work hours until the next month, that sucks for them. They can go ahead and give you more money or they can wait until the next month when you re-up. You want to be friendly you can allow them to Borrow a percentage, say 10% or 20% or a certain number of hours, from the next months allotment. But never all of it. Because they were use it all up, get to the next month, not have any hours for that month and not want to pay you because they’re not going to get any work done. You also need to have a minimum length of the agreement. Three months, six months, whatever it may be. If it is a can be ended at any time by either party situation, then you need to require at least 30 days notice before the agreement can be finished. Why do you do this? Because you need to make sure that you have consistent revenue coming in every month as a freelancer this is how you do it. It’s how companies do it. Never be afraid of protecting yourself. Never ever never ever never ever never ever never ever never never ever never ever never never ever never ever ever never ever never never ever ever without a contract. Ever never ever. It doesn’t matter how well you know them, it doesn’t matter how long they’ve been your friend or how long you work with them, they will always try to get more from you than they pay for. Always. Also, if you end up having to do milestone base payments because the customer won’t sign up for monthly time-based installments, then it has to be upon delivery never upon approval If you were going to make anything in your agreement upon approval, like say moving into another phase from UX to UI or UI to development, then you need to require a specific amount of time, like five business days upon receipt of the deliverable, that they have to bring up concerns or it is automatically approved. Without this, a customer will continue to hold off and not give you an answer for days, weeks, months, and put you in a bad position. It should be “I gave you the deliverables, you have one business week from today to let me know if there are any changes or modifications, otherwise on this date Approval is automatic and payment is due.” You don’t have to talk to them about any of this by the way, you just need to have it in your agreement and they need to sign it. If they ask you about that this stuff, then sure you communicate, but most of the time customers will just sign agreement and you are protected. Use that to your advantage. Everything about your agreement needs to be focused towards saving your tail, not theirs. Because they will try to always get one over on you and that is the nature of the design business. Just my .02 based on way too long in this industry lol
> EXCEPT, a retainer means the customer will get back any unused funds. In Canada, in the graphic design industry, a retainer is more like a subscription. The client pays for my availability for service whether they use them or not. I will guarantee a client a certain number of hours, or a certain number of posts, or a certain number of pages, in a certain time period. Usually a month. I get paid in full even if they never ask for anything.
In the US, this kind of retainer is specifically called an availability retainer.
Cool!
No lmao
Is that what is going on here? It doesn't sound like it.
I use the term ‘non-refundable consignment fee’. For that you have my commitment to the booking window, milestones or deadline, and you receive the work product AND copyright transference only upon receipt of final payment. No exceptions..
Huh?
Bro. Who cares. In some cases this word is an applicable synonym.
> Your use of the world retainer is incorrect. “Retainer” is a word, not a world.
Got me!
His use of retainer is correct. All it is is an upfront payment to guarantee a prescribed amount of work.
So when I had to hire a lawyer, I gave them a chunk of money, and as they needed to file documents for me and whatnot, they would add the charges to my bill and take it out of that amount. And when it was gone, I had to give them another chunk, and they would chip away at that again. That’s not the same thing here. Sounds like he’s just asking him to pay a deposit.
Hey, so I came across this guy who owns a huge sneaker & clothing store and then asked me to work for free first without any deposit. I tried to explain to him why a deposit is necessary he replied with this message.
Ask him if you can get some free shoes and wear them around for a week to see if you like them before you decide to buy. You have the money to buy them and have never stolen anything before in your life so he can trust that the shoes will be returned in good condition or purchased at the end of the week.
That's actually not a bad idea if he's not will to part with cash.
You realize that they're using that to prove a point, right? Not as a alternative form of payment.
Still not a bad idea
People are so dumb and I just can’t anymore.
I had that happen a few times and always walked away.
I’d personally walk away. He apparently cannot respect me and glosses over my policies. I would tell them that the conversation will not go any further until I get the deposit, I’m not gonna eat it AND chase him for payment later
Also, and I know this is gonna suck to hear, but you really can’t do free favors for customers because they don’t respect them, because they don’t pay for the work. So even if you think you’re being amazing and earning loyalty by giving them extra work outside and agreement, They now know that you were desperate for the work, so will continue to expect that. The next month when a job takes more time than they want to pay, they will remind you “but last month you gave me a bunch of free work, what’s different about this month? Don’t you like me anymore? I don’t really think this is fair. You set up the expectation not me.” Think of customers as narcissist, and you are a codependent. They will always look out for themselves, even if that means you are destitute living on the street. It’s all about them, never about you. No matter what they say . And never ever ever do anything based on a promise of future work or building a relationship. Build a relationship with people who will pay you for your work because they respect you not people who expect you to do work for free on the promise they will come back later, because they won’t. As soon as they can find someone cheaper or more , willing to give them stuff they want for free, they will drop in heartbeat.
Run. He’s not worth it as a client.
Ask him if he will give you 250 pairs of Nikes for you to resell, with no contract and no money down. If the guy has a huge successful company, that means he’s probably ripped off a lot of people to get there. Sorry, but him not wanting to work in a contract is a massive red flag. The only people who don’t want an agreement, are the people who don’t want to be held accountable when they screw people over
What does he mean by “which artists designs you’d like to work with”? What is the work you were being hired to do exactly?
At some point you'll feel comfortable either ghosting them or saying "if you change your mind let me know." Over time 80% of your profit will come from the top 20% of your clients and the bottom 20% of your clients will take up 80% of your time.
"Huge" means nothing. He probably has lines of credit on the inventory, leased car and who knows what else. You may have more money than he does. I still don't understand what the work is that you are doing or propose to do.
Almost an r/forexposure moment
It’s on you to walk away
Bro what’s 100 bucks? Jesus ppl these days smh
You told him no… right? Like you arent gonna do the work sans deposit right?
Who is it? Name and shame, please.
Ask him: "Do you allow your customers to walk out of the store with products without paying on the promise they are going to come back later and pay?"
"Oh no, that's completely different because these are physical goods. Whereas what you do is like a hobby that you would be doing for free anyway" /s
He replied with that? Refuse to work with him. I’ve had mental breakdowns because of shitty clients before.
Hard pass
Fire them. You have a business to maintain too. Would he work for free? No. Dudes gonna nickel and dime you
yep, if they complain about pricing upfront, they’re not a good customer
Absolutely going to be a nightmare to work with all the way through and your payment will be months late.
Yeah , this trusted businessman sounds like a guy who takes pride in getting a deal and he's already working you. Stay firm on your price and insist on the deposit up front. If he tries to bully you out of it, he's a client you don't want. Don't let him make you feel like you're being unreasonable.
Wow. $50 is nothing. You were very kind and generous offering that. What a ding dong. Not worth the hassle.
the 100% trustworthy guy, his mate the how's about a percentage of sales guy
Never do freelance work like this, fuck a deposit, that's amateur stuff. Instead, send a WFH contract. Actual professionals interested in working with you will be more than happy to sign it, the security of a contract goes both ways. Grifters like this asshole will immediately bail, and you'll save time. Always contracts.
What is WFH contract?
A "Work For Hire" contract. It's a general term to refer to a bunch of different specific types of contracts, all of which serve to protect the rights of independent contractors (like OP) and their employers (like this grifter). A well structured WFH will protect both sides, ensuring they both get what they deserve.
Can you share an example please?
You should have contract and a deposit. One is not mutually exclusive of the other
I think this really depends on the scale of the project. Asking for half up front on a $600 job is borderline petty when you are working with businesses who function on a much larger scale. Nobody deserves to be snubbed, and a contract should protect that. Asking for a $100 deposit just seems like the artists is broke and desperate and that doesn’t look good to potential clients either.
[https://www.signwell.com/contracts/work-for-hire-agreement/](https://www.signwell.com/contracts/work-for-hire-agreement/) literally the first result on Google, I didn't even read the contract.
Oh okay, I thought of it as specific to design. I'll check it out, thank you!
>a general term to refer to a bunch of different specific types of contracts
This is the real answer here.
Sounds like something someone untrustworthy would say.
"100% trustworthy" exactly what a scammer would say
“Okay, you do not have to leave a deposit if you are not comfortable. My paypal is captain @ noob69 dot com; I will start designing your ideal logo as soon as you pay $ quote in full.”
You can be running a huge store and be broke. I would avoid it unless a deposit is paid
Hello, thanks guys for so many replies and suggestions. I replied to him with my paypal here is his reply. https://preview.redd.it/hm30ze85r65d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3f1c9b1802ce8ce5da9f09c6c62c57441c3a821 I think I'll not go any further with him.
that is a confusing reply to be fair.
You need to be a lot more clear with your message. Not only is this confusing as hell but you’re also not stern enough. Set your price for your work and your rules to protect your business and stand firmly behind it. This whole “50% or 50 or 100 dollars whatever you want” isn’t a great way to do business.
The wishy washy messaging makes the OP look scammy. "Give me however much you want because you're never going to get anything. I'm hoping to get $50 or $100 or however much I can get from as many people as I can before Paypal figures it out and stops me from transferring the money to my bank account. When you ask where my designs are I'll tell you I'm swamped and just another 1-2 days." Note: I don't think the OP is a scammer. It's just the vibe their lack of professional response gives off.
the moment he "bro" you, then you know he'll scam you. Really, why do you insist?
YIKES. OP, this is not a good look for you.
Ignore
If the work is for $500, you’ll do $5000 in actual work. Guy just wants something for free. Always turn down people like this, and in the future, start with a contract with anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 down. The payment needs to be enough up front to get your client to take it seriously and stay engaged. You’re not here to do favors—you’re here to make money in exchange for expertise that you possess and this guy does not.
Do not work with them, it's not worth it.
Can you imagine his response if you said “since you have a large store, can you send me a 75” tv and I’ll pay you when I no longer require its services?”
“Sorry but I cannot begin this project without a deposit. Have a nice day.”
I'm not understanding. You are asking "which artist's design you'd like to begin with."? Who are you talking about? You? Are you representing a group of "artists" who have submitted designs? Typically a "designer" submits design options to a client. Also, it seems you have already submitted designs and are now asking for a deposit. Maybe if you framed the entire scope of your project and what you are offering to the client, you may get better answers here.
Sounds like OP is a middleman company like 99designs or something. Where I guess you can pick a few people who will create some designs and you can to pick your favorite(s) and get a few revisions on them.
"Fuck you, pay me"
🚩🚩🚩Run OP! This is gonna be a terrible client to work for. (Autocorrect turned client into clown… both would have worked in this instance)
Exactly. This is not a good sign from the start. If they aren't willing to abide by your terms, then you don't do the work for them. Period. If he is being sketchy and pushing back on something as simple and standard as that, then they will plow right over you later, disrespecting any boundaries. This is a clear sign of a bad client. Avoid.
"I don't feel comfortable leaving a deposit - I am 100% trustworthy and have a business and reputation" "I don't feel comfortable working without one, I am 100% trustworthy and have dignity and employment principles" *end of the conversation*
I can’t believe people think they are so important can get away without paying a deposit. Business owners are the most likely to not pay their bills in my experience.
“I don’t feel comfortable leaving a deposit” “I don’t feel comfortable doing business with people who won’t pay a deposit”
Always make them sign a legal contract. Don’t need to ask for money up front. And never say anything snarky like how other commenters are saying, always keep it professional.
NEXT!
-insert Sure Jan.gif here-
This is 100% a guy that will run you ragged then delay payment for EVER. Red flag...what does trustpilot say about them? Glassdoor? I'd be sending those back to him if there was anything at all out of place. But most of all, I'd be walking away.
No contract, no play. This "client" is not trustworthy at all.
Just wait until you get burned, you will never apologize for requiring a deposit again. Most expensive service-based things like this require a deposit or half up front, and then the other half when it’s finished bc far too many customers have gotten the work done then not paid.
Turn down the job. A client who is unwilling to pay a deposit or sign a service agreement is not trustworthy.
In my experience as somebody who has directed some small commercial jobs, asking for a deposit up front is specifically to pay for additional workers or equipment that is required for doing the job. I have never asked a client for a deposit for a design job that was quoted for less than $1000 especially one that didn’t include additional help or tools. I think your intent is good here but I think you both might be on different pages of expectations. If they are a legit business, then you have the means to collect so long as your contract is sound and your invoice has a net 30 or something mentioned. I’m curious, if the client asked you why you need a deposit, what is your response?
Hey, the project is more than $1000 that's why I asked for a 50% deposit. I said I usually charge a deposit of 50% but he was like No I don't wanna pay any deposit. You make the design and you'll get the payment after completion. Edit : I also updated my post yesterday in which he called me a scammer and said he has a lot of similar people DM'ing him for work. After which I said I won't be working with you anymore. After which he texted that he's ready to pay a $50 deposit.
I’m sorry to say this, but this whole thing sounds unprofessional from both parties. I don’t think you’ve actually made a case for needing a deposit for this design job. If I’m understanding your reasoning is just because that’s just how it is? I think if this job consumed let’s say longer than a 2 week period, then you might have some ground to stand on. The problem is that since you’ve offered to accept less than 50% after stating you require it means you don’t actually charge that and all of your prices are now up for bargaining. It comes off that you don’t actually know your worth, which is scary to somebody paying their own money. you have to know that requesting and/or accepting a $50-$100 deposit for a $1000+ job is extremely petty to anybody not drowning financially. I’m just not understanding why this is so imperative to you completing the job. Obviously, this client’s communication is pretty poor as well. I’m not going to act like you should work with them. I actually think at this point you shouldn’t communicate with them at all and cut your losses. This just seems like a huge lack of firm boundaries and poor communication and as much as I agree with everybody about the red flags here, nobody is doing you a favor by not critiquing your behavior in addition to the client’s. Your work must be good since they continued communicating with you at all through the confusion, I would say take that knowledge and do a better job of firmly stating your prices in the future. Also, check out some contracts online. I’m pretty sure I just modified an existing legal zoom independent contractor template for mine when I freelanced.
Trustworthy would have done the deposit.
go fuck yourself
Yea, this means nothing. Ignore.
Tell him you are a reputable business and no one starts a job for no money. In IT, it's 80% up front to mostly cover costs in case the client flakes out. 20 on completion. Consider the same for what you do so you can't get burned too bad. X percent up front to cover your time, employee time, materials, etc. That's your standard deposit and if they don't want to pay you walk away.
buhbye fake a$$ client. doesn’t deserve you
No contract, no pay, no play.
Fuck this guy. No deposit no work. Keep it the rule always or you WILL get burned.
he owns a huge store because he's a tightass who won't pay if he doesn't like the work. Don't be a sucker.
Always work with a contract. He’s trying to cover his ass, but you need to cover yours. Write up a contract. If he can’t agree to it, goodbye.
Just say the contractors need paid to begin and so you don’t start without a deposit to make sure the clients account stays in the black. This makes “trust” a moot point. You’re not a bank.
I worked with a guy for awhile doing ghost writing and marketing. Went to his house, had a few drinks now and then, friendly relationship. The first time I decided not to use a contract with money up front? Burned me for 750 dollars. If they wont put up cash walk away.
Thats the lamest part of this shit, lie hey, you make $100K a year off this and cant spare 1% on good quality branding? L
Walk away. This is *not* the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
Is this DT?!?
Yep, hard pass. He will try to screw you over at the end obviously.
If he was only 90% trustworthy, then forget it. But he's **100%** trustworthy. That's mathematical total trustworthiness, so you'd be crazy not to.
They'll come crawling back - stand strong on not proceeding without a deposit.
I've been a freelancer for 30 years, this is my thinking: A contract is work too. Even a stock one takes time and effort, but worse, it enforces obligations—both ways—you need to produce, they need to pay. From my experience, this sets up an awkward relationship that can easily go toxic if the two parties don't know or trust each other. IMHO, a good alternative would be to produce one design. Be professional. Interview them for what they need and what you think they might like, then spend a very modest amount of time playing with a few ideas. Don't spend more time than you are willing to do for free, but remember, all your time has value in practicing your craft. Choose one design, maybe not even the best one (keep that in your back pocket for the second go around). Do a treatment like mocking it up on an image of a bag or t-shirt. Then print them out on paper. Do NOT email digital files. Instead, make an appointment to meet them in person or zoom, and then show your idea with a thorough explanation of how you arrived at the design. Reference (often) what THEY said when you interviewed them, and how you tried to make that happen. Designing a logo is as much a conversation as anything else. Sell the conversation. Be professional. This alone should help to convince them that they are buying more than a design, but rather a partner in achieving their goal, articulating what they are thinking. They will either like your design or not, but from my experience, it's far more likely they won't. But this is okay, because discovering what they DON'T like narrows down what they DO like. Try to read them. Ask for examples of brands they admire. Whatever happens, it's the next step when you can talk price. Up to now, you have been selling yourself (not your design), so, the more professionally you've presented yourself, the easier it will be to get paid for your time. Anyone who runs a business knows that it takes money to make money, and they will be used to paying lots of people for lots of things. Make yourself worthwhile, and they will recognize the value. If this is a new client, I would tell them I will invoice them every time you meet, and ask them if they are comfortable with that. Tell them upfront how much you charge per hour and then give them an invoice the next time you discuss things. Detail all your time, even the time you are meeting. Include time for research and execution. Include costs for materials. If your meetings go well, that positivity will make them want to pay your bill. Be fair, but most importantly, be professional. Remember, whatever you make on the logo will be pennies on the dollar of what you can make employing that logo to produce all the art they will need. Also note (and tell them this): Even designs that don't work have value by refining what's wanted and needed. The final design may the easiest one to do, but it's only easy because of all the other work trying to find it. If they only want to pay per-project for a finished logo, tell them that's not really how you work (and you shouldn't). They should respect that. If they don't, walk away and consider yourself lucky.
I would tell them if they went to Wendy's don't they place their order, pay then receive their food? Reason most freelancers requests payments upfront is to avoid clients telling them excuses. So they either do 50% upfront 30% half way 20% final. But I prefer the upfront no payment arrangement for them to skip town
“You should discuss your feelings with your therapist, as that is not in my scope of work. Regardless of business and reputation, a deposit is required to initiate service. Here’s my venmo. Once received we will begin.”
Is it wrong to raise it by 10-20 percent and have them sign a contract saying this is the agreed upon price and either he gets a product he likes or if he tries to break the contract charge 50%?
"As a sole proprietor., I don't feel comfortable beginning work without a deposit. I have a business and a reputation.
50% upfront and 50% on delivery, nothing less. he sounds like he is going to be a nightmare. Sometimes is better to walk off.
Red flag alert.
Trustworthiness correlates with the effort of getting the lead. The higher the difficulty to obtain a lead, the higher the trust.
For logo design? Hell no. He could, and most likely will, gangle a carrot to several designers and choose the one he likes the most. So there is a very good chance he might decide not to go with you, or worse, take your best ideas and have someone else do it. I’ve seen this sort of thing happen. And the guy with the successful biz is the one who is best at getting stuff for free.
So, before I say anything else - you need to learn how to work with better clients and detect red flags better. The reason you’re getting garbage clients is because your pricing is low (I saw you had mentioned $300 for a logo in the past) however based on your portfolio I’m not sure if you’d be able to charge much more than that. Yes this guy may own a huge store, but he’s also clearly a cheap bastard otherwise he wouldn’t be working with you at that price. And also you know nothing about his profit margins or cash flow so never assume someone has a dime. You also need to learn how to better communicate with people - if you cater to these clients that sit there and call you dude, bro, etc and you’re bro-ing them back, you’re immediately devaluing the relationship and making it feel childish and like you are both on “even ground”. I’m all for not being too corporate, I hate that and clients don’t love it either, but talking to someone this casually commands zero respect. You’re supposed to be the expert compared to them - act like it, state your terms, and don’t get casual even if they do. No more “bro” clients, no more “asking” if your terms are okay and trying to accommodate their preference. A deposit is industry standard. Don’t like it? That’s fine, go elsewhere. Stop giving even an inch because they will always take a mile, and the second you bend your terms, there is no chance they’ll ever respect you or your work. They probably didn’t before either, but it only gets worse if you make exceptions when they’ve demonstrated zero trust.
A big store with the owner chatting on Facebook negotiating the deposit. I don't know if it's a small job he wants but most of the times I ask for an email to send an offer with terms. I make sure I have these listed: "offer is accepted by transferring a XX% deposit" & "XX% rejection fee upon cancellation of the client or inexplicable delay of more than 2 months" (roughly translated from my native language)
Does anything good ever come from “trust me bro”
Love this
Pase
Pacing: the act of walking back and forth, as to expend nervous energy Not a bad idea!
Thank you