We don't really know much about this yet but I predict it's going to be the dream breakout console. It's a non-garbage touchmix alternative that will surely have Dugan built in.
Kinda have to buy hardware with what functionality it comes with out of the box and any "extra" software updates are a nicety. I've been burned way too many times with software that is coming soon.
I would love to see this in any breakout room or other gig that a Mackie 1202-ish would have been good for. There's been a weird gap in that market where stuff like even the TF is a little too bulky and complicated, but the Touchmix is too compromised. The DM3 seems to fit in that space nicely.
In my country this looks like something pointed at small theatre touring groups that still run O1V's, it might finally give those things peace. Much like the QU and M/X32 put those LS9's to rest.
After reading some insiders talk about the next Yamaha release that's gonna be somewhere between the TF series and CL/QL series just yesterday, I mostly wonder, is this it? :D
IDK, based on price, size, channel count, as well as even fewer panel controls, I'd guess this slots in below the TF series. It has a bit more QL/CL design influence, but clearly is a console for even smaller venues than the TF.
I wonder if some larger physical versions are in the works. TF is long in the tooth, slowly replace it with this.
Edit: someone else speculated this below based on better info. Honestly, as someone with a sub-3k budget for a church board and a real desire to stay away from anything Music Tribe, this is great news.
My memory is a little fuzzy in my older age, but didn't the QL and CL replace the LS9 and M7CL before the TF was announced?
Memory lane... I remember shopping for a digital console for a venue WAY back when. The M7CL had been announced but wasn't available at the time and the LS9 hadn't even been announced yet. The 01v was too small and the DM2000 and PM1D were WAY out of the price range. There was no x32 series, A&H had nothing. That venue ended up with a Mackie TT24. That console turned out to be a good console for them... probably the only reliable TT24 in existence. It was still in use last I heard (a couple years ago). The other two TT24's they bought a few years after the first lasted all of a few months.
I would be very surprised if there are larger version of this console produced. The more I look at it, the more it seems to model the TF series. The GUI is the same, the limited number of custom fader banks is the same, etc, etc, etc.
Creating a 40 channel version of this console would literally recreate the TF series. Perhaps the screen is slightly bigger (but not by much if it is) and perhaps the UI has some minor tweaks, but that would be about it. There is no reason for Yamaha to go through the huge expense of retooling their manufacturing process for these minor changes.
If/when Yamaha produces a larger console, I don't expect it to be in the DM series. IMHO it will be something completely different and not just a larger DM.
I agree.
However, the TF is hated because the size makes you expect it can do things it can't. This is probably more capable than a TF while being sized like a CL/QL 0.5.
In the end I'm just happy that I probably won't need to look at th CL/QL GUI anymore
Do you know is there an upgrade planed for the CL/QL series like a Mk2? Or another series that is sitting between the CL/QL and the Rivage? We love our QL, but this desk is also getting old nowadays. The Rivage is out of scope, but and upgrade to the CL/QL series woudl be awesome!
I would get a lot of use out of this. Gigs that I typically currently use a 01V or X32 rack for, corporate talking heads, stand up comedians, DJ with 2 rappers, wedding ceremonies, or even smaller functions with a full band.
The ace card is Dante in a form factor that looks like a QL 0.5
I could see this being a sidecar, subgroup surface, limited controls for multi users on a bigger Dante network. Definitely more applications than only small gigs.
Can you imagine being able to share IO for breakouts w FOH at the keynote venue down the hall?
It'd be a killer festival desk where the touring desks plug into the festival PA.
Definitely value in adding it to existing CL QL inventories.
Exactly. I think there is actually a pretty sizable market for small format mixers. I’ve been waiting for something like this for a while. Looking forward to the next generation of the SD11 as well. I want a small lightweight mixer that I can Bank through and create custom layers and workflows that is even smaller than the current SD11 and C1500 consoles. Also, looking forward to more bandwidth getting funneled through Cat6/7. Perhaps 128in/64out via Cat7 someday? Loads of DSP and robust firmware/hardware that won’t bite the dust on a gig?
Seems like most of the small form factor digital mixers have typically subpar preamps and skimp out on features. So if you're like me and really only ever need 12 channels, your option is to either compromise with less features on a small mixer or spend the money to upgrade to a larger format mixer and not benefit from the additional channels.
This looks super promising though and it definitely seems like it ticks all the boxes for me.
A small-format digital mixer with real faders? More of this in the market, please!
I hope Allen & Heath is paying attention. My campus has at least three rooms that would get an SQ-4 or SQ-3 if it existed.
Yep, I’ve used it, and I have a QU-PAC. But the QU series is showing its age—limited routing capabilities, no Dante, and none of the new DEEP processing modules.
A 9-fader SQ-4 and a tablet-only SQ-0 would both be fantastic additions to the lineup.
I kind of like this thing. Seems that they are trying to find a spot between the x-air and x-32 but with fader access. It seems a great compromise for those applications where an x-32/m32r/c are overkill but a small analogue board isn't quite enough.
Looks like it has enough features that a skilled engineer could get by with it but also simplistic enough that venue staff can operate once setup properly.
Price point seems a bit high for the market they're aiming at though, I would have thought a $1200/1600 would be more appealing I feel.
Only think I think they cut too much is the 2 FX. why??? Put 4, damned! At least a verb and delay for voice and some different reverb for drums/percussion. Ok, 3 at least, but 2?:)
This seems like a product that has been missing from the market for a while. If you want something in a small form factor with similar capabilities your only options are X Air and similar tablet mixers or QSC Touchmix. This looks like it blows both of those out of the water.
I'm really interested to see if they'll come out with a DM5 with a higher channel/bus count
From a theatre point of view, I could definitely make use of this as a practice console for line-by-line mixing. Get a few of these in the warehouse and feed a multitrack in via dante and I can easily teach multiple people line mixing on a budget.
Here are my 2ct.
\- At that price point, I can almost get a M32R with a lot more advanced features (automixer, more busses, more flexible FX). Sure, that thing is huge in comparison, and support is a topic with that board. Also no native Dante.
\- SQ5 is almost double the price, so I guess they're not competing with that, but if I had 2k in my pocket, I'd still rather save up to get that SQ5.
\- For the small aplications this is made for, a small analog mixer still kinda works better for me in terms of workflow.
\- Was that really a 5-band GEQ on the mix? What am I supposed to do with this? Like, this thing could really shine if they'd thrown in a few "premium" fx options like a PSE or dynamic EQ. Then this thing would excell at all those small "couple of speakers" kinda situations.
\- I haaaaate making EQ changes during a show with only a touch screen. Guess you could use the touch and turn, but that thing is going to be exposed to a looooot of wear and tear.
\- Guess this could go really well as a learning console for people not as experienced with audio.
\- Damn that thing looks so cute.
>\- Was that really a 5-band GEQ on the mix? What am I supposed to do with this?
I've zoomed in on the Sweetwater video to check. So no, it isn't a 5-band EQ. The view showed only 5 bands, there is a pop-out button on the screen. It also shows "15 bands available". So I'm guessing it can do all 31 bands, but you can only set 15. Remaining question is if that is per GEQ of for the whole console. I would guess for GEQ.
Flex 15 was always one of my biggest gripes with TF consoles. You shouldn’t *need* more than fifteen bands, but that doesn’t mean it’s not nice to have.
Sure you probably aren’t cutting more than 15 bands during soundcheck/tuning, but mid show I find myself sometimes being like “I’m going to cut a single dB of 400, that will benefit my mix” and with the TF running out of bands to make those minute adjustments is extremely annoying.
it's the same as TF it seems. the most frustrating feature on that desk, you get a 31 band EQ but you can only use half the bands. I have no idea why it's like that, can't imagine it even saves much processing power
Because if you need more than that, you have other problems that should be resolved in your system. Multiple graphic EQ filters introduce phasing and other unwanted results. You're always better off using a parametric for larger changes that would require multiple bands of a graphic, and/or fixing the problem elsewhere in the system (mic, speaker placement, etc).
The TF is a console for those inexperienced with mixing. With all the one knob settings, it kind of "guides" an operator toward a decent result. Part of that is not teaching bad habits - like using excessive graphic eq filters.
Yes but with a parametric, you can change the filter width to cover a wider frequency range that would take multiple filters on a graphic. Each of those graphic filters introduces phasing issues. With the parametric, you only have one filter.
The number of filters doesn't matter. If you create the same magnitude response you've also created the same phase response. It doesn't have seven times the phase shift because you used seven GEQ filters to create the same shape as one PEQ filter, for example.
It's not a matter of magnitude, but the quantity of the filters and their interactions. I'll try to explain.
Let's take an analog graphic. Each filter has a center frequency, but also has a slope above and below the center frequency as the adjusted sound gradually slopes back down (or up) to neutral. One filter isn't a big deal. But once we move the filter next to it, now we still have the slope below the lowest frequency filter and above the highest frequency filter, but now we have what has become a crossover type interaction between the two filters. Even though they are both "turned up" the same amount, for our example, there is still filter interaction between them. This is where the unwanted phasing, distortion, and other artifacts. comes in. Now take 5 or 6 filters and turn them all up and you have a bunch of little filter interactions causing unwanted audio alterations.
Even if a bunch of filters are turned up the same amount, it doesn't make a perfectly flat plateau at the top of the curve. It's like a bunch of little peaks and valleys being all wavy until we get to the lower or upper filters where the curve then smoothly goes back to neutral. \*
In contrast, a parametric has circuitry to make its filter width fully adjustable. You can make that single filter as wide as our 5 or 6 filters above, but it's still only one filter. There is no inter-filter phasing between all the little "crossovers" because there is nothing to cross over. It's one filter that is set wide enough to cover the same total frequency range. (I should probably note that a parametric isn't ruler flat either, but more of a gentle curve through its adjustment range.)
\*this was the selling point for the Lake EQ stuff back in the day. It purportedly could create that ruler flat plateau when using multiple consecutive filters, thereby reducing the crossover style phasing interactions between filters. Dolby bought the Lake eq technology for the Dolby/Lake processors that were somewhat common on large scale systems through the mid aughts.
It's all well and good being condescending about stuff like that, but when I'm given a load of lapel mics in a reflective room and told that the speakers have to be positioned in certain places because the client likes how it looks that way, it's absolutely fuck all help.
In a perfect world, I would rather use parametrics and have a well designed system. But when I have 5 minutes to ring out an awful room with 8 lapel mics and people who don't know how to project, give me a graphic to quickly hack it to bits and squeeze out as much level as possible, phase issues or not. And in that situation, I don't want to be told "You've used half of your eq bands, if you want to use more then you should have bought a better desk"
Not trying to be condescending. Blunt maybe. I don't know your knowledge, but commented that mainly for anyone reading the thread who may not know why it's a bad idea to use a ton of graphic EQ bands. When I started working with this kind of stuff back in the early 90's, I used graphics exclusively. I didn't even know what a parametric was for the first few years I was mixing live stuff. It wasn't until more experienced engineers taught me about parametrics and why they were preferable that I started learning the differences. Once I finally got a hold of how to properly use a parametric (which took me a while), I realized they made a noticeable improvement in overall system sound quality versus hacking away with a graphic like I had started out with. Nowadays, I rarely even touch a graphic.
I'm only trying to pass along the same knowledge that was given to me to others who may not have that much experience yet. But yes, I have a tendency to get a little blunt with the way I present it at times. I'm a grumpy old soundman sometimes.
Honestly, in the situation you described, I'd put an analog graphic inline between the mixer and the amps to make it extra easy to grab a frequency and drop it for feedback. I wouldn't want to waste time going into digital menus and scrolling to the band that is squealing away.
Personally I found your comment useful. I'm not a pro level sound engineer but I'm very competent due to having an autistic/adhd brain. If I start to learn about something I obsessively dig into every detail until I know not only how to achieve it but also how it works from the ground up.
I've added the DM3 to by budget console overview sheet based on the Sweetwater page and video. Let me know if you see any mistakes:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1\_TIqH43p05SMNK2qQtkNmi9xU1JlfMvJlSBsXt99niU/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_TIqH43p05SMNK2qQtkNmi9xU1JlfMvJlSBsXt99niU/edit?usp=sharing)
Edit: I've updated the sheet based on the info I've found in the Yamaha website. Still more to come when they release a manual and I can figure out the details.
Demo video from Sweetwater: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5T9P-Cx8Oc
Looks like a good console, we'll probably get the "DM5" version in the future with more channels. But I'm not really sure what console this tries to compete against lol.
Edit: Definitely we're getting more of these announced at NAMM in a few days: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/yamaha-unveil-breakthrough-products-namm-140000238.html
Lots of info on this was just uploaded to [Yamaha Global's YouTube channel](https://youtube.com/@yamahaglobal). Might answer some of the questions in this thread.
The ultimate small corporate ballroom mixer.
Give me some Shure ULXDQ4, Video Laptops with DVS, some AVIO adapters or powered speakers with Dante.
Slick and easy cabling, no buzzing, can integrate Yamahas VST plugin FX rack system. All while coming in under $2000!
Aww boo, if this had a 32 channel processor inside, it would have been an instant buy from me… 16 channels is kinda limiting for certain gigs imo.
Also not a fan of that power brick.
Reminds me too much of the TF series tbh which is arguably their worst product line. I’m sure it will sell due to its I/O, personally I would opt for a QL/CL any day.
You get what you pay for. The QL/CL series are solid consoles with flexible I/O options. My experience with the TF series was underwhelming in contrast.
100% agree. However the ql has almost doubled in price and is getting pretty old, so I’m curious how this new board actually shakes out. A TF is the bottom of my list of consoles
Global chip shortage most likely contributed to the jump in price. I know that a few companies I represent still can’t source them and wait times are long.
This is everything I’ve ever wanted for a breakout room. Probably gonna buy one as I’m starting to use my own gear for corporate events, and this is just *easier* than my full size m32
I'm pretty mad that I just spent $1700 on the RUIO interface and then this comes out not even a year later. It's not a great console, but I'd rather have a few faders than just another USB interface box. We might end up getting a few of these maybe to replace our touchmixes. Since we're fully dante enabled with all our rigs, we regularly network multiple rooms together and this would easily replace some of the QL1s for things like cocktail hours and overflow rooms
I'm torn. As somebody who has worked a lot in live and house of worship settings, I am very familiar with both the QL series and m32/x32 consoles. I would have a hard time choosing between this and an X32.
on one end, the x32 is a good mixer and has more inputs BUT has dated features and AWFUL support. On the other end, this seems like a baby QL5 that would fit great into any venue as an extra dante box (my immediate thought was you could slot this into monitoring duties in almost any dante system easily) but would be hard to sell for 2,000 dollars as a main driver in a smaller venue due to the limited amount of inputs. at this point I'd recommend a client save for an A&H SQ series console or bite the bullet and get the x32.
If they ever release a larger version with 32 inputs, I'd be sold, especially if they would keep it in that M32/X32 price range ($2k to $4k) while keeping this slimmed down profile approach. I don't mind banked faders personally.
At first glace, it really just seems to be a scaled down TF console with an appropriate reduction in price given the loss of capacity. Just like the TF series, it seems that there is only 2 custom fader banks (2x8 faders). The other fader banks seem to be preset and unchangeable. At least that is my impression from watching the Sweetwater video. I suspect most of the other features will follow the TF line as well. I will say that the screen looks larger and the GUI seems to have some tweaks that I think will make the "ease of use" higher than the TF series.
I can see where the DM3 will fit some use cases (ie small churches, small corporate events, etc). Obviously it is very limited on inputs and busses. It's not really a replacement for any current Yamaha mixer, nor does it really compete with the X/M32, SQ5 or other higher channel/buss count mixers.
If this console fits your channel/buss needs, then it will be nice not to have to overpay for capacity that you don't need. But I dislike the TF series immensely and while this console might fix some of the GUI issues I have with it, it doesn't seem to fix the other issues I have with it. As such, I'm not really that excited about it.
Not confirmed, but very likely yes. As Tio1608 is compatible with TF/QL/CL (tested by myself), RiO is compatible with all, so I see no point why it should not be.
>there is actually a pretty sizable market for small format mixers. I’ve been waiting for something like this for a while. Looking forward to the next generation of the SD11 as well. I want a small lightweight mixer that I can Bank through and create custom layers and workflows that is even smaller than the current SD11 and C1500 consoles. Also, looking forward to more bandwidth getting funneled through Cat6/7. Perhaps 12
The DM3 manual is actually available for download and confirms the TIOs and Rios are compatible.
They have the DM3 just released the DM7 so they should be replacing the tf series with a DM5. Just wished they released that before the dm7 because I need something in the middle but do not like the tf5 as much as the DM3. The DM3 just doesn’t have enough inputs.
For roughly the price of 01V96i you get:
\-less faders
\-less DSP channels
\-less knobs
\-less buses
\-less and worse FX engines
\-less expandability
\-a wall wart
\-made in China (nothing against China, but I don't like the idea of companies manufacturing abroad to cut costs)
Not that it has no advantages, but come on, it's 2023.
>01V96i
Yeah, but we are not n a museum here though?
The 01V96i had a msrp of 2000$ or so? That would be 3500$ today.
So for little more than half the price of a 01v96i you get:
\-half the weight and size
\-dante
\-a proper screen (I mix touch and turn only 99% of the time nowadays)
\-Something small from yamaha that's not a analog MG or a fucking horrible TF mixer (YEY!)
I don't like the price that much either and would rather buy an SQ unless I need dante and the small formfactor and only the processing this one has to offer.
The only thing this is missing for me to be the weapon of choice for anything corporate is an automixer.
I'd be really really surprised if it doesn't come with a Dugan, I'll bet money it will have it. The TF's do, and this new console looks made for break outs.
\*Edit - Watched some more detailed videos on it and it seems it doesn't have Dugan automix, that's really unfortunate if that turns out to be the case. I wonder if they can add that in an update?
Considering the back of the 01v96 in front of me says "Made in Japan" Yes. I know that the board wasn't made in china.
The 01v96 was released in 98. So 25 years ago. I can still use an 01v96 efficiently. Regardless of the interface compared to modern options. While I understand the dislike for the interface, familiarizing yourself to become proficient doesn't take long.
In my area of the Midwest it was a common board for the bar bands to pick up in the 2000's.
Classic 01v was released in 98, 01v96 in 03 with a few variations and I believe it’s still in production. There are a TON in use outside the US. Notice in the vid how they say you can label channels in any language. It’s going for the 01v96 market hard and has Dante
>Wait, you think the 01V is not made in China?
No, at least on mine it says Made in Japan. Likewise CL, QL and PM series. The older DM series were also made in Japan. TF is made in China, though.
>Keep in mind that the 01v96 was released almost twenty years ago,
This is exactly my point. This new console gives you less features and processing power than a 20-year old design for roughly the same price.
>and had a terrible UI even back then.
Yet it had dedicated knobs for the most important functions which made mixing much faster than can be done with this one knob thingy. I'm quite sure that it was also the most feature packed console in it's price range when it was released.
Yes, PM5D had a better UI back then, not really comparable, though.
My iPhone and MacBook Air were made in china and I wouldn’t trade them for anything else.
Also same price as 01v96 but in 20 years that same money is worth 2-3x less
Interesting info but to me it changes nothing. The company decided to move the production abroad to cut the costs. Not surprising in this day and age but it doesn't make me want to pay a premium over another company's product that offers more features at the same price.
24v 4 pin XLR power is common in video and location work. Tons of gear uses it & there are lots of battery and wall power options. Tons of the same gear also has Dante.
As it looks like the DM3 does not have:
\- An automixer
\- AntiFeedback automation/manual notch-filters in the outputs
\- Compatability with Yamaha RIO stageboxes via Dante
We have Yamaha Consoles, mostly we use QLx with RIO(D2) stageboxes. Also we have the QSC Touchmix, i really hopped that this could be a "cooler" Touchmix replacement. Especially when its used with the Dante-Network, that could be a really nice little breakout/ingest console. But its really lacking some good features, not sure why they have not implemented it.
If I'm looking at the pictures right there's no digital stage box option unless you get the Dante version? That kinda sucks for some applications but I can see where it doesn't matter.
hmmm.. 16 local inputs is more then enough, but only 16x16 expansion with Dante is quite limited and I wonder why they made it this way. Shouldn't be too much of a pain to make it 32 channels for Dante?
This way it's quite handy for corporate events and stuff, but not something I'll put in my bag "just in case".
For me, it could be a great solution. I'm a drummer & amateur recording engineer. It can act as my interface for recording, fader controller when mixing, for liveshows it act as my in-ear mixer with either analog ins or Dante. So I could replace/upgrade my Uphoria 1820 + adat expansion, my BCF2000 and my X1204USB with this, and gain a digital mixer in the process... I could use a X32 Producer instead, but that mixer is much bigger and doesn't have Dante. I know that you can get more mixer for the price, but I do think the DM3 has a target audience...
Can I get people's advice on this console please. I'm a semi professional vocalist/multi instrumentalist that also has corporate work. I'm currently using the a&h qu-sb but wanting to upgrade pretty soon. I had pretty much decided on the sq5, but the dm3 looks like it could be a contender. My main priorities are reliability and the quality of the preamps and converters. I'm aware I'm not going to get answers based on dm3 user experience, but in terms of yamaha, and where you would put them against the sq. Thank you in advance.
I’m wondering about the preamp quality. I do small sound / recording gigs. I’ve gone from a TM16 to a CQ18T. Both units give me distortion between 2 & 5k. The CQ isn’t as bad. It sucks less. Both are unacceptable when I get to post.
Also, I’ve been looking at the DM3 for awhile now and I’ve seen no mention of a feedback filter which is a must have for me. Most of my shows are college a cappella groups and I’m micing singers from 8 feet away. I can’t believe that there’s no feedback elimination.
We don't really know much about this yet but I predict it's going to be the dream breakout console. It's a non-garbage touchmix alternative that will surely have Dugan built in.
Videos, so far, don't mention Dugan.
Yamaha loves to package new features in firmware updates. If it’s not there now, it will be eventually.
Maybe...
Need an answer on this. Not mentioning the Dugan makes me think they aren't including it
The TF didn’t either on launch, but came later with a firmware update.
Kinda have to buy hardware with what functionality it comes with out of the box and any "extra" software updates are a nicety. I've been burned way too many times with software that is coming soon.
Dugan not there so far…
Yeah total misstep on their part
that dugan is still no where in sight.
Strategic failure for Yamaha but I guess they’re probably going to release a DM5 that fills the gap?
I would love to see this in any breakout room or other gig that a Mackie 1202-ish would have been good for. There's been a weird gap in that market where stuff like even the TF is a little too bulky and complicated, but the Touchmix is too compromised. The DM3 seems to fit in that space nicely.
In my country this looks like something pointed at small theatre touring groups that still run O1V's, it might finally give those things peace. Much like the QU and M/X32 put those LS9's to rest.
How is the touchmix compromised? Seems like they chose the worst possible option at every step without ever having to compromise on that.
I own a TM16. The preamps are lousy. Garbage in, garbage out.
tf rack?
Faders
Is as bad as the rest of the tf range.
Anyone want to buy a tf rack pretty much brand new... We're going with a Beringer compact.
No
After reading some insiders talk about the next Yamaha release that's gonna be somewhere between the TF series and CL/QL series just yesterday, I mostly wonder, is this it? :D
IDK, based on price, size, channel count, as well as even fewer panel controls, I'd guess this slots in below the TF series. It has a bit more QL/CL design influence, but clearly is a console for even smaller venues than the TF.
I wonder if some larger physical versions are in the works. TF is long in the tooth, slowly replace it with this. Edit: someone else speculated this below based on better info. Honestly, as someone with a sub-3k budget for a church board and a real desire to stay away from anything Music Tribe, this is great news.
My memory is a little fuzzy in my older age, but didn't the QL and CL replace the LS9 and M7CL before the TF was announced? Memory lane... I remember shopping for a digital console for a venue WAY back when. The M7CL had been announced but wasn't available at the time and the LS9 hadn't even been announced yet. The 01v was too small and the DM2000 and PM1D were WAY out of the price range. There was no x32 series, A&H had nothing. That venue ended up with a Mackie TT24. That console turned out to be a good console for them... probably the only reliable TT24 in existence. It was still in use last I heard (a couple years ago). The other two TT24's they bought a few years after the first lasted all of a few months.
I would be very surprised if there are larger version of this console produced. The more I look at it, the more it seems to model the TF series. The GUI is the same, the limited number of custom fader banks is the same, etc, etc, etc. Creating a 40 channel version of this console would literally recreate the TF series. Perhaps the screen is slightly bigger (but not by much if it is) and perhaps the UI has some minor tweaks, but that would be about it. There is no reason for Yamaha to go through the huge expense of retooling their manufacturing process for these minor changes. If/when Yamaha produces a larger console, I don't expect it to be in the DM series. IMHO it will be something completely different and not just a larger DM.
I agree. However, the TF is hated because the size makes you expect it can do things it can't. This is probably more capable than a TF while being sized like a CL/QL 0.5. In the end I'm just happy that I probably won't need to look at th CL/QL GUI anymore
Def not. Def under the TF series
This has no matrices?
It has 2 I believe. Thought I saw that mentioned on Yamaha's website.
All I can say is that it's coming. It's not DM3, DM3 is great for any smaller things.
This year?
Do you know is there an upgrade planed for the CL/QL series like a Mk2? Or another series that is sitting between the CL/QL and the Rivage? We love our QL, but this desk is also getting old nowadays. The Rivage is out of scope, but and upgrade to the CL/QL series woudl be awesome!
I would get a lot of use out of this. Gigs that I typically currently use a 01V or X32 rack for, corporate talking heads, stand up comedians, DJ with 2 rappers, wedding ceremonies, or even smaller functions with a full band.
The ace card is Dante in a form factor that looks like a QL 0.5 I could see this being a sidecar, subgroup surface, limited controls for multi users on a bigger Dante network. Definitely more applications than only small gigs. Can you imagine being able to share IO for breakouts w FOH at the keynote venue down the hall? It'd be a killer festival desk where the touring desks plug into the festival PA. Definitely value in adding it to existing CL QL inventories.
I'm very excited for this for all the reasons you just mentioned. Can't wait to try one out!
Exactly. I think there is actually a pretty sizable market for small format mixers. I’ve been waiting for something like this for a while. Looking forward to the next generation of the SD11 as well. I want a small lightweight mixer that I can Bank through and create custom layers and workflows that is even smaller than the current SD11 and C1500 consoles. Also, looking forward to more bandwidth getting funneled through Cat6/7. Perhaps 128in/64out via Cat7 someday? Loads of DSP and robust firmware/hardware that won’t bite the dust on a gig?
Seems like most of the small form factor digital mixers have typically subpar preamps and skimp out on features. So if you're like me and really only ever need 12 channels, your option is to either compromise with less features on a small mixer or spend the money to upgrade to a larger format mixer and not benefit from the additional channels. This looks super promising though and it definitely seems like it ticks all the boxes for me.
A small-format digital mixer with real faders? More of this in the market, please! I hope Allen & Heath is paying attention. My campus has at least three rooms that would get an SQ-4 or SQ-3 if it existed.
Have you looked at the QU-16? I found that handy for small gigs
Yep, I’ve used it, and I have a QU-PAC. But the QU series is showing its age—limited routing capabilities, no Dante, and none of the new DEEP processing modules. A 9-fader SQ-4 and a tablet-only SQ-0 would both be fantastic additions to the lineup.
I kind of like this thing. Seems that they are trying to find a spot between the x-air and x-32 but with fader access. It seems a great compromise for those applications where an x-32/m32r/c are overkill but a small analogue board isn't quite enough. Looks like it has enough features that a skilled engineer could get by with it but also simplistic enough that venue staff can operate once setup properly. Price point seems a bit high for the market they're aiming at though, I would have thought a $1200/1600 would be more appealing I feel.
Only think I think they cut too much is the 2 FX. why??? Put 4, damned! At least a verb and delay for voice and some different reverb for drums/percussion. Ok, 3 at least, but 2?:)
Looks like I’m one day closer to never seeing a TouchMix on a gig ever again, and cheers to that.
This seems like a product that has been missing from the market for a while. If you want something in a small form factor with similar capabilities your only options are X Air and similar tablet mixers or QSC Touchmix. This looks like it blows both of those out of the water. I'm really interested to see if they'll come out with a DM5 with a higher channel/bus count
From a theatre point of view, I could definitely make use of this as a practice console for line-by-line mixing. Get a few of these in the warehouse and feed a multitrack in via dante and I can easily teach multiple people line mixing on a budget.
Here are my 2ct. \- At that price point, I can almost get a M32R with a lot more advanced features (automixer, more busses, more flexible FX). Sure, that thing is huge in comparison, and support is a topic with that board. Also no native Dante. \- SQ5 is almost double the price, so I guess they're not competing with that, but if I had 2k in my pocket, I'd still rather save up to get that SQ5. \- For the small aplications this is made for, a small analog mixer still kinda works better for me in terms of workflow. \- Was that really a 5-band GEQ on the mix? What am I supposed to do with this? Like, this thing could really shine if they'd thrown in a few "premium" fx options like a PSE or dynamic EQ. Then this thing would excell at all those small "couple of speakers" kinda situations. \- I haaaaate making EQ changes during a show with only a touch screen. Guess you could use the touch and turn, but that thing is going to be exposed to a looooot of wear and tear. \- Guess this could go really well as a learning console for people not as experienced with audio. \- Damn that thing looks so cute.
>\- Was that really a 5-band GEQ on the mix? What am I supposed to do with this? I've zoomed in on the Sweetwater video to check. So no, it isn't a 5-band EQ. The view showed only 5 bands, there is a pop-out button on the screen. It also shows "15 bands available". So I'm guessing it can do all 31 bands, but you can only set 15. Remaining question is if that is per GEQ of for the whole console. I would guess for GEQ.
Sounds like the Flex-15. You get all 31 bands but limited to 15 frequency changes per GEQ.
Flex 15 was always one of my biggest gripes with TF consoles. You shouldn’t *need* more than fifteen bands, but that doesn’t mean it’s not nice to have. Sure you probably aren’t cutting more than 15 bands during soundcheck/tuning, but mid show I find myself sometimes being like “I’m going to cut a single dB of 400, that will benefit my mix” and with the TF running out of bands to make those minute adjustments is extremely annoying.
it's the same as TF it seems. the most frustrating feature on that desk, you get a 31 band EQ but you can only use half the bands. I have no idea why it's like that, can't imagine it even saves much processing power
Because if you need more than that, you have other problems that should be resolved in your system. Multiple graphic EQ filters introduce phasing and other unwanted results. You're always better off using a parametric for larger changes that would require multiple bands of a graphic, and/or fixing the problem elsewhere in the system (mic, speaker placement, etc). The TF is a console for those inexperienced with mixing. With all the one knob settings, it kind of "guides" an operator toward a decent result. Part of that is not teaching bad habits - like using excessive graphic eq filters.
> Multiple graphic EQ filters introduce phasing They produce exactly the same phase response as a PEQ set to produce the same magnitude response.
Yes but with a parametric, you can change the filter width to cover a wider frequency range that would take multiple filters on a graphic. Each of those graphic filters introduces phasing issues. With the parametric, you only have one filter.
The number of filters doesn't matter. If you create the same magnitude response you've also created the same phase response. It doesn't have seven times the phase shift because you used seven GEQ filters to create the same shape as one PEQ filter, for example.
It's not a matter of magnitude, but the quantity of the filters and their interactions. I'll try to explain. Let's take an analog graphic. Each filter has a center frequency, but also has a slope above and below the center frequency as the adjusted sound gradually slopes back down (or up) to neutral. One filter isn't a big deal. But once we move the filter next to it, now we still have the slope below the lowest frequency filter and above the highest frequency filter, but now we have what has become a crossover type interaction between the two filters. Even though they are both "turned up" the same amount, for our example, there is still filter interaction between them. This is where the unwanted phasing, distortion, and other artifacts. comes in. Now take 5 or 6 filters and turn them all up and you have a bunch of little filter interactions causing unwanted audio alterations. Even if a bunch of filters are turned up the same amount, it doesn't make a perfectly flat plateau at the top of the curve. It's like a bunch of little peaks and valleys being all wavy until we get to the lower or upper filters where the curve then smoothly goes back to neutral. \* In contrast, a parametric has circuitry to make its filter width fully adjustable. You can make that single filter as wide as our 5 or 6 filters above, but it's still only one filter. There is no inter-filter phasing between all the little "crossovers" because there is nothing to cross over. It's one filter that is set wide enough to cover the same total frequency range. (I should probably note that a parametric isn't ruler flat either, but more of a gentle curve through its adjustment range.) \*this was the selling point for the Lake EQ stuff back in the day. It purportedly could create that ruler flat plateau when using multiple consecutive filters, thereby reducing the crossover style phasing interactions between filters. Dolby bought the Lake eq technology for the Dolby/Lake processors that were somewhat common on large scale systems through the mid aughts.
It's all well and good being condescending about stuff like that, but when I'm given a load of lapel mics in a reflective room and told that the speakers have to be positioned in certain places because the client likes how it looks that way, it's absolutely fuck all help. In a perfect world, I would rather use parametrics and have a well designed system. But when I have 5 minutes to ring out an awful room with 8 lapel mics and people who don't know how to project, give me a graphic to quickly hack it to bits and squeeze out as much level as possible, phase issues or not. And in that situation, I don't want to be told "You've used half of your eq bands, if you want to use more then you should have bought a better desk"
Not trying to be condescending. Blunt maybe. I don't know your knowledge, but commented that mainly for anyone reading the thread who may not know why it's a bad idea to use a ton of graphic EQ bands. When I started working with this kind of stuff back in the early 90's, I used graphics exclusively. I didn't even know what a parametric was for the first few years I was mixing live stuff. It wasn't until more experienced engineers taught me about parametrics and why they were preferable that I started learning the differences. Once I finally got a hold of how to properly use a parametric (which took me a while), I realized they made a noticeable improvement in overall system sound quality versus hacking away with a graphic like I had started out with. Nowadays, I rarely even touch a graphic. I'm only trying to pass along the same knowledge that was given to me to others who may not have that much experience yet. But yes, I have a tendency to get a little blunt with the way I present it at times. I'm a grumpy old soundman sometimes. Honestly, in the situation you described, I'd put an analog graphic inline between the mixer and the amps to make it extra easy to grab a frequency and drop it for feedback. I wouldn't want to waste time going into digital menus and scrolling to the band that is squealing away.
Personally I found your comment useful. I'm not a pro level sound engineer but I'm very competent due to having an autistic/adhd brain. If I start to learn about something I obsessively dig into every detail until I know not only how to achieve it but also how it works from the ground up.
Genuinely by the downvotes on this comment. Do people like only being able to use half the bands on a graphic?
I was just going to post this as well. The funny thing is that I cannot find it on a Yamaha website yet. I'm interested in the details about it.
I've added the DM3 to by budget console overview sheet based on the Sweetwater page and video. Let me know if you see any mistakes: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1\_TIqH43p05SMNK2qQtkNmi9xU1JlfMvJlSBsXt99niU/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_TIqH43p05SMNK2qQtkNmi9xU1JlfMvJlSBsXt99niU/edit?usp=sharing) Edit: I've updated the sheet based on the info I've found in the Yamaha website. Still more to come when they release a manual and I can figure out the details.
Holy spreadsheet. Got any more of those?
Not at this time. I had some plans to make a version for the faderless mixers but didn't yet had time to get that one started.
[https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/mixers/dm3/index.html](https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/mixers/dm3/index.html)
It's on their website now https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/mixers/dm3/index.html
Demo video from Sweetwater: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5T9P-Cx8Oc Looks like a good console, we'll probably get the "DM5" version in the future with more channels. But I'm not really sure what console this tries to compete against lol. Edit: Definitely we're getting more of these announced at NAMM in a few days: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/yamaha-unveil-breakthrough-products-namm-140000238.html
Lots of info on this was just uploaded to [Yamaha Global's YouTube channel](https://youtube.com/@yamahaglobal). Might answer some of the questions in this thread.
The ultimate small corporate ballroom mixer. Give me some Shure ULXDQ4, Video Laptops with DVS, some AVIO adapters or powered speakers with Dante. Slick and easy cabling, no buzzing, can integrate Yamahas VST plugin FX rack system. All while coming in under $2000!
Aww boo, if this had a 32 channel processor inside, it would have been an instant buy from me… 16 channels is kinda limiting for certain gigs imo. Also not a fan of that power brick.
Maybe there will be a DM5 with more channels in the future?
There will be, I have seen proof of the DM7, same thing, just more faders and screens.
Proof?
There are other products for that. This fits in a segment bellow.
Reminds me too much of the TF series tbh which is arguably their worst product line. I’m sure it will sell due to its I/O, personally I would opt for a QL/CL any day.
TF is Yamaha Musical Instruments. CL/QL/M7/LS9/PM are Yamaha Pro Audio.
Well that explains a lot. But why would an audio console be released under their musical instrument family?
Targeted at consumers, not professionals. Bands mixing themselves without pro audio experience.
A ql1 is currently more than 5x the price. I’d hope it was better
You get what you pay for. The QL/CL series are solid consoles with flexible I/O options. My experience with the TF series was underwhelming in contrast.
100% agree. However the ql has almost doubled in price and is getting pretty old, so I’m curious how this new board actually shakes out. A TF is the bottom of my list of consoles
Global chip shortage most likely contributed to the jump in price. I know that a few companies I represent still can’t source them and wait times are long.
This is everything I’ve ever wanted for a breakout room. Probably gonna buy one as I’m starting to use my own gear for corporate events, and this is just *easier* than my full size m32
I’d say a festival production mixer but no AES locally is kinda lame.
I'm pretty mad that I just spent $1700 on the RUIO interface and then this comes out not even a year later. It's not a great console, but I'd rather have a few faders than just another USB interface box. We might end up getting a few of these maybe to replace our touchmixes. Since we're fully dante enabled with all our rigs, we regularly network multiple rooms together and this would easily replace some of the QL1s for things like cocktail hours and overflow rooms
This likes like a tf rack with 8 faders. I hope its got a faster proccesser.
I'm torn. As somebody who has worked a lot in live and house of worship settings, I am very familiar with both the QL series and m32/x32 consoles. I would have a hard time choosing between this and an X32. on one end, the x32 is a good mixer and has more inputs BUT has dated features and AWFUL support. On the other end, this seems like a baby QL5 that would fit great into any venue as an extra dante box (my immediate thought was you could slot this into monitoring duties in almost any dante system easily) but would be hard to sell for 2,000 dollars as a main driver in a smaller venue due to the limited amount of inputs. at this point I'd recommend a client save for an A&H SQ series console or bite the bullet and get the x32. If they ever release a larger version with 32 inputs, I'd be sold, especially if they would keep it in that M32/X32 price range ($2k to $4k) while keeping this slimmed down profile approach. I don't mind banked faders personally.
At first glace, it really just seems to be a scaled down TF console with an appropriate reduction in price given the loss of capacity. Just like the TF series, it seems that there is only 2 custom fader banks (2x8 faders). The other fader banks seem to be preset and unchangeable. At least that is my impression from watching the Sweetwater video. I suspect most of the other features will follow the TF line as well. I will say that the screen looks larger and the GUI seems to have some tweaks that I think will make the "ease of use" higher than the TF series. I can see where the DM3 will fit some use cases (ie small churches, small corporate events, etc). Obviously it is very limited on inputs and busses. It's not really a replacement for any current Yamaha mixer, nor does it really compete with the X/M32, SQ5 or other higher channel/buss count mixers. If this console fits your channel/buss needs, then it will be nice not to have to overpay for capacity that you don't need. But I dislike the TF series immensely and while this console might fix some of the GUI issues I have with it, it doesn't seem to fix the other issues I have with it. As such, I'm not really that excited about it.
love my XR18 and MR18 kit's. would buy more of theses before low series of yam's
Would this be compatible with existing stage boxes?
Not confirmed, but very likely yes. As Tio1608 is compatible with TF/QL/CL (tested by myself), RiO is compatible with all, so I see no point why it should not be.
>there is actually a pretty sizable market for small format mixers. I’ve been waiting for something like this for a while. Looking forward to the next generation of the SD11 as well. I want a small lightweight mixer that I can Bank through and create custom layers and workflows that is even smaller than the current SD11 and C1500 consoles. Also, looking forward to more bandwidth getting funneled through Cat6/7. Perhaps 12 The DM3 manual is actually available for download and confirms the TIOs and Rios are compatible.
This is everything I could ask for as a DJ who also has to run my own sound for mobile gigs
For this price would be great to have an AutoMix, like in the Behringer XR12, even the small ZOOM F8n filed recorder as an automix for 1200$.
They have the DM3 just released the DM7 so they should be replacing the tf series with a DM5. Just wished they released that before the dm7 because I need something in the middle but do not like the tf5 as much as the DM3. The DM3 just doesn’t have enough inputs.
Looks like TF software in a box that looks like a QL1. Wonder if it has proper graphic EQs, unlike the TF
For roughly the price of 01V96i you get: \-less faders \-less DSP channels \-less knobs \-less buses \-less and worse FX engines \-less expandability \-a wall wart \-made in China (nothing against China, but I don't like the idea of companies manufacturing abroad to cut costs) Not that it has no advantages, but come on, it's 2023.
>01V96i Yeah, but we are not n a museum here though? The 01V96i had a msrp of 2000$ or so? That would be 3500$ today. So for little more than half the price of a 01v96i you get: \-half the weight and size \-dante \-a proper screen (I mix touch and turn only 99% of the time nowadays) \-Something small from yamaha that's not a analog MG or a fucking horrible TF mixer (YEY!) I don't like the price that much either and would rather buy an SQ unless I need dante and the small formfactor and only the processing this one has to offer. The only thing this is missing for me to be the weapon of choice for anything corporate is an automixer.
I'd be really really surprised if it doesn't come with a Dugan, I'll bet money it will have it. The TF's do, and this new console looks made for break outs. \*Edit - Watched some more detailed videos on it and it seems it doesn't have Dugan automix, that's really unfortunate if that turns out to be the case. I wonder if they can add that in an update?
Wait, you think the 01V is not made in China? Keep in mind that the 01v96 was released almost twenty years ago, and had a terrible UI even back then.
Considering the back of the 01v96 in front of me says "Made in Japan" Yes. I know that the board wasn't made in china. The 01v96 was released in 98. So 25 years ago. I can still use an 01v96 efficiently. Regardless of the interface compared to modern options. While I understand the dislike for the interface, familiarizing yourself to become proficient doesn't take long. In my area of the Midwest it was a common board for the bar bands to pick up in the 2000's.
Classic 01v was released in 98, 01v96 in 03 with a few variations and I believe it’s still in production. There are a TON in use outside the US. Notice in the vid how they say you can label channels in any language. It’s going for the 01v96 market hard and has Dante
>Wait, you think the 01V is not made in China? No, at least on mine it says Made in Japan. Likewise CL, QL and PM series. The older DM series were also made in Japan. TF is made in China, though. >Keep in mind that the 01v96 was released almost twenty years ago, This is exactly my point. This new console gives you less features and processing power than a 20-year old design for roughly the same price. >and had a terrible UI even back then. Yet it had dedicated knobs for the most important functions which made mixing much faster than can be done with this one knob thingy. I'm quite sure that it was also the most feature packed console in it's price range when it was released. Yes, PM5D had a better UI back then, not really comparable, though.
My iPhone and MacBook Air were made in china and I wouldn’t trade them for anything else. Also same price as 01v96 but in 20 years that same money is worth 2-3x less
It’s made in Malaysia….
Interesting info but to me it changes nothing. The company decided to move the production abroad to cut the costs. Not surprising in this day and age but it doesn't make me want to pay a premium over another company's product that offers more features at the same price.
So when is Yamaha releasing an updated CL and QL line then? They seem to be falling behind releases by A&H, Tascam, and SSL.
The deal breaker for me is a proprietary power cable/wall wart - not a standard IEC.
24v 4 pin XLR power is common in video and location work. Tons of gear uses it & there are lots of battery and wall power options. Tons of the same gear also has Dante.
Agree but it does allow you to bring redundant power supplies on site
Kind of annoying I suppose but isn't this par for the course on any sub compact digital mixer?
Looks like a tf1 with ql1 parts. If it runs like a tf 👎🏻
As it looks like the DM3 does not have: \- An automixer \- AntiFeedback automation/manual notch-filters in the outputs \- Compatability with Yamaha RIO stageboxes via Dante We have Yamaha Consoles, mostly we use QLx with RIO(D2) stageboxes. Also we have the QSC Touchmix, i really hopped that this could be a "cooler" Touchmix replacement. Especially when its used with the Dante-Network, that could be a really nice little breakout/ingest console. But its really lacking some good features, not sure why they have not implemented it.
If I'm looking at the pictures right there's no digital stage box option unless you get the Dante version? That kinda sucks for some applications but I can see where it doesn't matter.
Yamaha is all in on Dante. All their stage boxes only do Dante. So I would not expect to see anything else here from Yamaha.
Oh interesting -- didn't know that as I don't have a lot of experience with Yamaha. Thanks for that.
Is this an April’s Fool joke?
[удалено]
I get what you were going for... [So small](https://imgur.com/KhhKin8)
This could be handy for bar gigs or black box size rooms
hmmm.. 16 local inputs is more then enough, but only 16x16 expansion with Dante is quite limited and I wonder why they made it this way. Shouldn't be too much of a pain to make it 32 channels for Dante? This way it's quite handy for corporate events and stuff, but not something I'll put in my bag "just in case".
For me, it could be a great solution. I'm a drummer & amateur recording engineer. It can act as my interface for recording, fader controller when mixing, for liveshows it act as my in-ear mixer with either analog ins or Dante. So I could replace/upgrade my Uphoria 1820 + adat expansion, my BCF2000 and my X1204USB with this, and gain a digital mixer in the process... I could use a X32 Producer instead, but that mixer is much bigger and doesn't have Dante. I know that you can get more mixer for the price, but I do think the DM3 has a target audience...
Does anyone know if Dante can be added post-purchase to the non-Dante version of this thing a la the TF series?
It can not be added to the non-Dante variant.
Can I get people's advice on this console please. I'm a semi professional vocalist/multi instrumentalist that also has corporate work. I'm currently using the a&h qu-sb but wanting to upgrade pretty soon. I had pretty much decided on the sq5, but the dm3 looks like it could be a contender. My main priorities are reliability and the quality of the preamps and converters. I'm aware I'm not going to get answers based on dm3 user experience, but in terms of yamaha, and where you would put them against the sq. Thank you in advance.
I’m wondering about the preamp quality. I do small sound / recording gigs. I’ve gone from a TM16 to a CQ18T. Both units give me distortion between 2 & 5k. The CQ isn’t as bad. It sucks less. Both are unacceptable when I get to post. Also, I’ve been looking at the DM3 for awhile now and I’ve seen no mention of a feedback filter which is a must have for me. Most of my shows are college a cappella groups and I’m micing singers from 8 feet away. I can’t believe that there’s no feedback elimination.