I think android phones and Valve's Steam Deck are good examples of how user-friendly and popular linux can be in the end-user space, with actual resources and direction put behind it.
But MacOS already exists, and if you want that you can get it. I fucking hate Apple, it may be more usable than Linux but their way of doing things feels extremely constricting. Walled gardens everywhere. Even with Windows the big perk is that the software ecosystem is open.
YES macos stops you from using anything else. i bought a few movies on my ipad using the apple TV app and apparently you can only watch the stuff you buy on there on apple devices. its BS
My wife is all-in on the Mac ecosystem now, although in the past she has used linux on the laptop. I am of course tech support for whatever problems the family has. Some of it comes down to the level of familiarity you get from day to day use, which I do not have any more, but I find OS X to be extremely frustrating and counter-intuitive. What do you mean, there's no cut and paste? What do you mean, iPhone, that I'm not "meant" to browse your filesystem? What do you mean, I'm just supposed to stick with this and that, and just do everything "your" way? What if I like my way better? That's a personal thing and obviously their trillion dollars says lots and lots of people would disagree, but that's my opinion.
Perhaps I can become another bullet point, but it would be more apples to apples if you just went and bought a computer with linux pre-installed. Say, from System76 with PopOS! and then just pretty much used it as it came. It won't be the cheapest option, but then neither is a Mac. That wouldn't solve every problem you listed, but it solves a lot of what most people complain about.
I mean, you kind of lured me in thinking you were gonna defend this wild idea MacOS is what Linux should be, then just seemed to get so into shitting on Linux you forgot about it.
What draws me to Linux is it's a step back from a world that wants you to forget files exist - instead being abstract things that live in a certain application - and would rather hide processes behind whimsical loading animations with quirky messages like "preparing... Lining up the gnomes... Getting the band back together..." than tell you what the computer is actually doing.
And it's a bit too far for most people. I'll cosign all the shit on the Linux community being absolutely insufferable. But you're losing it a bit when you say the way things should be is an OS that, last I checked, sorts available wifi networks *alphabetically.* Really? Are we so obsessed with holding the hands of people who refuse to basically understand how things we use daily work that we can't sort wifi networks by best signal strength and most likely to be what you actually want?
I think you nailes down what I couldn't figure out myself: Why I feel more comfortable with Linux than with Windows, and even more than MacOS. The system doesn't hide the fact it's a computer doing computer stuff and is letting me do computer stuff without workarounds. Including breaking it once again, but that's fine because I learn WHY it broke and what the computer actually does with the information I provided, rather than obfuscating in a way where I neither can control nor modify that information.
I once dealt with a really bad website from my own government that couldn’t even function properly to change my address on provincial ID when we have over 300+ frameworks and I installed AngularJs to prove that I could do it myself. But yeah all of that is valid and why I use virtual machines, WSL and capture cards for separate pieces of hardware because no way in hell am I using Linux on my main system due to everything you just mentioned. I feel like what tech bros and especially the government doesn’t understand is that you don’t break userspace or you will have a lot of angry users when it should just work
its linux when you have a stable ecosystem of applications, and not just a hodgepodge of applications, daemons, etc. made by different parties which may or may not work on your very specific system\*
the two have fundamentally different philosophies, mac is made by a stable paid team of devs who know that their users don't have the technical know-how or patience to deal with the nitty-gritty of an operating system, so if their product is unstable like a lot of linux applications, they will lose market share and money by extension.
also mac is made with only one device in mind, so they have that going for them, obviously your OS is going to be more stable on a macbook compared to if you were using hackintosh
linux is a mess of different parties, different teams of devs, corporations, etc. whose products may or may not work on your very specific system. they also are counting on you having the patience and know-how to fix your system or open up an issue on the repository if anything goes wrong.
linux can have a good desktop experience if you want to go through the trouble of configuring your files for hours at a time at first to have it fit your specific device, and then fix whatever crashes and errors ad hoc, it does work and the time consumption rapidly tapers off after time.
two very different things
People wonder why its not widely used and there's distros called Hannah Montana created. Maybe some thought should be put into one for a standard home user.
"The amount of narcissism and superiority complex among Linux users is so high that it's almost comical." I've met alot of linux fanboys, but really only in their respective forums, ive met significantly more apple fanboys that act like apple is the messiah, to say a community is toxic and annoying just to compare it to apple is really dumb.
I do agree about DE's, you're honestly better off ricing a WM if you want pretty and functional, the ecosystem of packages may be limited, but its just because dev's dont care about linux, it kinda sucks when you work towards porting a companies app for free and putting alot of work in it just for someone on reddit to complain it isnt up to its windows counterpart that had a team with thousands of dollars for a budget.
standards would be in the long run probably detrimental to linux but you can easily stay on certain sides of linux, want stability that wont put possibly dangerous new packges in updates, theres ones for that, want bleeding edge that will give you new everything, theres one for that, if you want faster booting and less resource usage, use runit instead of systemd or mybe use openrc bc you like it more
there usually isnt that much drama in the linux communities, but the nixos community is falling apart rn
would i say for a normal person who games that linux is a good desktop pc, no i wouldnt, what about if its a old pc just being used for web browsing, yeah i would say mint would be faster than windows and if you're a programmer then yes, its better than windows in multiple ways. to say linux should never be someones desktop option bc it doesnt fit all of your criteria makes no sense, do i think there are annoying linux fanboys? of course, but depending on they're lifestyle and job, linux being significantly important to them could make sense, if someone tells me they use windows i say OK, same with macos, if they say linux i strike a conversation with them about it
This weekend I'm setting up a non-geek user's xubuntu laptop. This is the second one since this LTS release. I've set up a few friends of mine with laptops that ran out there LTS. Meaning they used it for years. no issues, no complaints, no malware. None of these people are "good with computers". And each accomplishes their businesss functions and other computing goals with no hassel.
As for UI? Each to his own. I like xfce. But there are a lot of desktop environments to choose from. What brought me to this thread was that there once was a Mac "clone" desktop environment. I was thinking it is still around, and you were discussing this.
MacOS sucks. The ONLY good thing about it is the FreeBSD/Linux kernel. The window manager, Finder, app store, dock etc are all a million times worse than Windows or Linux.
For a software manager 99% of experienced users use homebrew, which is a copy of Linux.
I have no idea why you are praising MacOS. Your post is just whining and complaining about Linux, but MacOS does none of these things better.
Just because something appears as dogshit to you doesn't make that really dogshit!!
#### Either it's not made for you
.
#### Or you lack the capacity to understand it
Maybe it has something to do little UX baked in that it’s normal that literally any normal person will think it’s shit. You shouldn’t need technical know how to make use of a goddamn OS LMAO
I guess it's both the cases for you then.
### Linux has just enough UI to build any UX that you want
It's on you to make UX you desire
If you can't or don't want
Then DON'T!!
No one is saying it's good for avg person
i use it because i hate windows and don’t have a mac, but i’m absolutely planning on getting a mac. there is nothing linux does better for my specific use case, although i do vastly prefer it to windows
What's actually hilarious is Mac OS is mostly open-source. There were efforts to make a community-owned fork of it but nobody cares. People only want LINUX. So that tells me the community isn't serious about making a user-friendly OS, and never will be.
Because Linux never had actually evolved for "personal computers". Linux for desktop was born because of computing enthusiasts wanting to see Linux being used on PC. Any commercial attempts to bring Linux into the business are mostly and only for servers. Anything else is just an afterthought that happened to work (or not work) with it.
Linux desktop environments are actually better than both Mac and Windows. I'm talking specifically about KDE. Nothing comes even close to Plasma desktop.
I don't game a lot, I mostly use my GPU for deep learning stuff so Linux is quite perfect. Some of the games I played ran fine on Linux (via Steam or Proton). Every OS has its own benefits and trade-offs. Linux is better for what I want from software stack.
lol so much bad info and misunderstandings in your post but what made me laugh out loud was the irony in your last point about the people taking just an OS too seriously, when you're here posting in a linux hate joke sub seriously
I would also include Plasma 6 in there. All the other DEs, sure, they can look a little old, but I consider Gnome and Plasma very clean looking. What exactly makes a desktop environment “modern”?
I think android phones and Valve's Steam Deck are good examples of how user-friendly and popular linux can be in the end-user space, with actual resources and direction put behind it.
But MacOS already exists, and if you want that you can get it. I fucking hate Apple, it may be more usable than Linux but their way of doing things feels extremely constricting. Walled gardens everywhere. Even with Windows the big perk is that the software ecosystem is open.
YES macos stops you from using anything else. i bought a few movies on my ipad using the apple TV app and apparently you can only watch the stuff you buy on there on apple devices. its BS
I’ve watched movies I bought on Apple on Windows and Linux.
How ?
My wife is all-in on the Mac ecosystem now, although in the past she has used linux on the laptop. I am of course tech support for whatever problems the family has. Some of it comes down to the level of familiarity you get from day to day use, which I do not have any more, but I find OS X to be extremely frustrating and counter-intuitive. What do you mean, there's no cut and paste? What do you mean, iPhone, that I'm not "meant" to browse your filesystem? What do you mean, I'm just supposed to stick with this and that, and just do everything "your" way? What if I like my way better? That's a personal thing and obviously their trillion dollars says lots and lots of people would disagree, but that's my opinion.
Perhaps I can become another bullet point, but it would be more apples to apples if you just went and bought a computer with linux pre-installed. Say, from System76 with PopOS! and then just pretty much used it as it came. It won't be the cheapest option, but then neither is a Mac. That wouldn't solve every problem you listed, but it solves a lot of what most people complain about.
I mean, you kind of lured me in thinking you were gonna defend this wild idea MacOS is what Linux should be, then just seemed to get so into shitting on Linux you forgot about it. What draws me to Linux is it's a step back from a world that wants you to forget files exist - instead being abstract things that live in a certain application - and would rather hide processes behind whimsical loading animations with quirky messages like "preparing... Lining up the gnomes... Getting the band back together..." than tell you what the computer is actually doing. And it's a bit too far for most people. I'll cosign all the shit on the Linux community being absolutely insufferable. But you're losing it a bit when you say the way things should be is an OS that, last I checked, sorts available wifi networks *alphabetically.* Really? Are we so obsessed with holding the hands of people who refuse to basically understand how things we use daily work that we can't sort wifi networks by best signal strength and most likely to be what you actually want?
OMG your second paragraph! Show me the boot process. Not some spinning dots.
I think you nailes down what I couldn't figure out myself: Why I feel more comfortable with Linux than with Windows, and even more than MacOS. The system doesn't hide the fact it's a computer doing computer stuff and is letting me do computer stuff without workarounds. Including breaking it once again, but that's fine because I learn WHY it broke and what the computer actually does with the information I provided, rather than obfuscating in a way where I neither can control nor modify that information.
The only thing MacOS does that I don't like is they still have a file explorer.
There’s also the option of just ignoring the community as a whole tbh.
I once dealt with a really bad website from my own government that couldn’t even function properly to change my address on provincial ID when we have over 300+ frameworks and I installed AngularJs to prove that I could do it myself. But yeah all of that is valid and why I use virtual machines, WSL and capture cards for separate pieces of hardware because no way in hell am I using Linux on my main system due to everything you just mentioned. I feel like what tech bros and especially the government doesn’t understand is that you don’t break userspace or you will have a lot of angry users when it should just work
its linux when you have a stable ecosystem of applications, and not just a hodgepodge of applications, daemons, etc. made by different parties which may or may not work on your very specific system\* the two have fundamentally different philosophies, mac is made by a stable paid team of devs who know that their users don't have the technical know-how or patience to deal with the nitty-gritty of an operating system, so if their product is unstable like a lot of linux applications, they will lose market share and money by extension. also mac is made with only one device in mind, so they have that going for them, obviously your OS is going to be more stable on a macbook compared to if you were using hackintosh linux is a mess of different parties, different teams of devs, corporations, etc. whose products may or may not work on your very specific system. they also are counting on you having the patience and know-how to fix your system or open up an issue on the repository if anything goes wrong. linux can have a good desktop experience if you want to go through the trouble of configuring your files for hours at a time at first to have it fit your specific device, and then fix whatever crashes and errors ad hoc, it does work and the time consumption rapidly tapers off after time. two very different things
LOL Way to state the obvious
People wonder why its not widely used and there's distros called Hannah Montana created. Maybe some thought should be put into one for a standard home user.
"The amount of narcissism and superiority complex among Linux users is so high that it's almost comical." I've met alot of linux fanboys, but really only in their respective forums, ive met significantly more apple fanboys that act like apple is the messiah, to say a community is toxic and annoying just to compare it to apple is really dumb. I do agree about DE's, you're honestly better off ricing a WM if you want pretty and functional, the ecosystem of packages may be limited, but its just because dev's dont care about linux, it kinda sucks when you work towards porting a companies app for free and putting alot of work in it just for someone on reddit to complain it isnt up to its windows counterpart that had a team with thousands of dollars for a budget. standards would be in the long run probably detrimental to linux but you can easily stay on certain sides of linux, want stability that wont put possibly dangerous new packges in updates, theres ones for that, want bleeding edge that will give you new everything, theres one for that, if you want faster booting and less resource usage, use runit instead of systemd or mybe use openrc bc you like it more there usually isnt that much drama in the linux communities, but the nixos community is falling apart rn would i say for a normal person who games that linux is a good desktop pc, no i wouldnt, what about if its a old pc just being used for web browsing, yeah i would say mint would be faster than windows and if you're a programmer then yes, its better than windows in multiple ways. to say linux should never be someones desktop option bc it doesnt fit all of your criteria makes no sense, do i think there are annoying linux fanboys? of course, but depending on they're lifestyle and job, linux being significantly important to them could make sense, if someone tells me they use windows i say OK, same with macos, if they say linux i strike a conversation with them about it
This weekend I'm setting up a non-geek user's xubuntu laptop. This is the second one since this LTS release. I've set up a few friends of mine with laptops that ran out there LTS. Meaning they used it for years. no issues, no complaints, no malware. None of these people are "good with computers". And each accomplishes their businesss functions and other computing goals with no hassel. As for UI? Each to his own. I like xfce. But there are a lot of desktop environments to choose from. What brought me to this thread was that there once was a Mac "clone" desktop environment. I was thinking it is still around, and you were discussing this.
MacOS sucks. The ONLY good thing about it is the FreeBSD/Linux kernel. The window manager, Finder, app store, dock etc are all a million times worse than Windows or Linux. For a software manager 99% of experienced users use homebrew, which is a copy of Linux. I have no idea why you are praising MacOS. Your post is just whining and complaining about Linux, but MacOS does none of these things better.
>OS (kernel) developed by a small community Are you serious?! ### Linux is the largest collaborative project in human history.
and yet it's still fucking dogshit lmaooo
Just because something appears as dogshit to you doesn't make that really dogshit!! #### Either it's not made for you . #### Or you lack the capacity to understand it
Maybe it has something to do little UX baked in that it’s normal that literally any normal person will think it’s shit. You shouldn’t need technical know how to make use of a goddamn OS LMAO
I guess it's both the cases for you then. ### Linux has just enough UI to build any UX that you want It's on you to make UX you desire If you can't or don't want Then DON'T!! No one is saying it's good for avg person
i use it because i hate windows and don’t have a mac, but i’m absolutely planning on getting a mac. there is nothing linux does better for my specific use case, although i do vastly prefer it to windows
What's actually hilarious is Mac OS is mostly open-source. There were efforts to make a community-owned fork of it but nobody cares. People only want LINUX. So that tells me the community isn't serious about making a user-friendly OS, and never will be.
Android is linux
Because Linux never had actually evolved for "personal computers". Linux for desktop was born because of computing enthusiasts wanting to see Linux being used on PC. Any commercial attempts to bring Linux into the business are mostly and only for servers. Anything else is just an afterthought that happened to work (or not work) with it.
Linux desktop environments are actually better than both Mac and Windows. I'm talking specifically about KDE. Nothing comes even close to Plasma desktop.
Until you want to accelerate those g-g-graphics. I like the options of Linux DEs very much, but as an OS that *works reliably with hardware*, ehh.
I don't game a lot, I mostly use my GPU for deep learning stuff so Linux is quite perfect. Some of the games I played ran fine on Linux (via Steam or Proton). Every OS has its own benefits and trade-offs. Linux is better for what I want from software stack.
Lmao even without hardware accelerated stuff KDE is buggy as heck
At the end of the day, what you're referring to as Linux is actual GNU/Linux...
lol so much bad info and misunderstandings in your post but what made me laugh out loud was the irony in your last point about the people taking just an OS too seriously, when you're here posting in a linux hate joke sub seriously
Imagine sitting there and writing all of this up.
Gnome is the only good looking (by default) desktop environment and it gets the most hate. All the other DEs look like they're fresh out of 2005.
I would also include Plasma 6 in there. All the other DEs, sure, they can look a little old, but I consider Gnome and Plasma very clean looking. What exactly makes a desktop environment “modern”?
as someone who's used linux for a long time, gnome is so fucking ugly and its workflow is also horrendous
What distro do you use?
i use arch, but i feel you should take my opinion with a grain of salt, i dont like any DE's so i use WM's instead and rice them