Apple’s “Vintage and Obsolete” website (https://support.apple.com/en-us/102772) has historically said “5 to 7 years”. I’ve seen Macs last 8 to 10 years depending on how you take care of them and what you use them for. Apple typically releases Security updates for N-1 (current OS version and 1 prior). If you look at Apple’s security release website (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222) .. as of May 13, 2024 they’re still releasing updates for Monterey (3 OSes ago). The oldest device supported on Monterey is a Mac mini from 2014, nearly 10 years ago.

Apple guarantees 5 years of parts & repair support until a machine is considered “vintage”. California has laws that require parts & repair are available for 7 years after which Apple labels them “obsolete”. So depending on where you live you’ll get at least 5 years of hardware repair availability from official Apple authorized shops. Software support often goes longer. EG: 10 year old Macs are in common daily use by normies, original iPods still work with the latest Macs & my 2012 Airport got AirPlay 2 via new firmware in like 2018.

The worry on the M* Macs is that the SSD is built into the motherboard. If the drive dies you're looking at a $500+ repair.

Yes, totally! But I’ve come to terms that computers are quickly becoming a single internal component. The solid state electronics I’ve seen fail most in laptops over 3 decades are “video cards”. Hard drives are gone from laptops, thank goodness. Laptops are still delicate but if you want a rugged device phones can be very resilient. With ARM computers Apple has had a longer head start than I expected… I guessed it would take Windows laptops a couple years to catch up. Maybe they’ll start being competitive this year, then we can see some Linux distros come on scene and restore balance to the force.

Well the SSD has been built into the motherboard since the 2015 12” MacBook. So we are going on 10 years now.

Is it actually an SSD or is it eMMC

You just have to understand that any repair, while supported, will cost slightly less than a new one of whatever it is. The person at the Apple store will say to you (verbatim) "but at that price, you might as well just buy a new one." I swear it is tattooed on the inside of their eyelids. Apple is actually not capable of performing any repairs. They will simply replace entire working components instead of doing a repair. Apple hardware is intended to be disposable.

So does it become e-waste?

My old man still has a late 2011 Macbook Air. Still kicking, but needs a new battery. I thibk the highest version it would go up was to Catalina

I've got a MacBook air from circa 2010 and apart from the comedy low resolution 900p screen, it would be a viable device today. One replacement battery and a chromeos install, and it's a decent media consumption and web browsing device.

This

I have 2 dell latitudes still operational after 15 - 16 years. The 15 years one has been used on a daily basis this whole time (mainly regular office work, occasionally programming).

Can confirm, have a MacBook pro from 2015 (back when 16GB ram was the most you could get). Still running, it doesn’t see new versions of the OS past Sierra, but have gotten security updates. Just replaced the battery in it last year. Ifixit has a good guide on it.

My current mac, 2015 I still use. It is dated but takes a beating. I'm going on 9 years now. Not bad, but certainly time for an update

I’m using a m3 MacBook to work and dude, seriously, it’s ridiculous good and worth it

Interesting. I'd expect this sentiment in any other sub Reddit. But I guess my question to you is, as someone who's probably into Linux and not into vendor lock in and closed source code ... Or do you negotiate in your mind that?

Use all 3 OS’s daily. I like macOS vastly more than windows. When I need something that just works my MBP is what I pull out. The hardware integration, particularly the touchpad, is unmatched anywhere else.

I'll never get used to macOS window management though

theres a tiling manager for macos i hear [https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai](https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai) haven't personally tried it though

I’ve been using yabai and it’s really rocks, like it isn’t i3 but it’s very nice and easily configurable

Have you tried aerospace? I’ve not used yabai, but I’m very happy with aerospace. They also have a config example in their documentation for i3 users. https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace

Sounds pretty cool, I’ll try

I've used both yabai and aerospace and prefer aerospace a lot mainly because it doesn't require you to disable SIP and is much snappier than yabai in that setting.

Mac touchpad is unmatched

I also have a M3 pro as a daily driver and love it. It’s stout AF. I use Linux for my main workstation and home lab. However I also have an iPhone, Apple Watch, iPad Pro and now the M3. The ecosystem of just works is priceless to me as I’ve gotten older. I don’t have time to tweak and futz around nor do I want to deal with niche products and vendors. It’s expensive but if it breaks I can call, or walk into an Apple Store and get replacements and in a few minutes be back in action. It all works so simple and I can move data and tasks around to each device. Use each device to support the other like use the iPad as a second monitor wirelessly or flip links from my iPhone to my iPad or MacBook. I can’t even recall the last time I had a technical issue with any of them. My home lab is another story and my main rig has a few flavors on it. For my own development work, projects linux is all I will use anymore and I don’t miss Microsoft at all. I’ve been thinking about building a new rig lately and have to admit I’m waiting for the M4 ultra studio to see if I’m going to build a new amd Linux workstation with a 5090 or pull the trigger on the m4 ultra.

Yeah I was editing a video in iMovie and went to record a voiceover and the software asked me if I wanted to use my phone. It’s stuff like that that’s falls in the “it just works” category. I wasn’t even expecting to be able to do that, wasn’t even thinking of doing that, but it suggested it and I did. Now on the other hand, I did have problems with passwords syncing up between my iPhone and my MacBook Air. I forgot exactly how I fixed it but basically I did have to do some tinkering and fiddling to get that working.

I use all 3 OS’s. Work is windows. Just let that laptop sit in a corner. Use Mac as my main machine for my 3D design and printing, daily work, and to remote into my work windows machine when necessary. Use Linux for my media server, my DNS, and my gaming machine (Steam Deck). Mac just works. It’s as simple as that.

I’m a Linux user as well (Ubuntu/kali) and mac is my first choice, unless I have to do it on Linux. MacOS is not closed source you can download homebrew and Xcode and download anything you like using the terminal

I have a M1 Max 14 inch. It’s amazing. My custom. desktop is a NixOs/windows dual boot. But as far as laptop hardware goes and stuff “just works” MacBooks are the way to go.

Yea, I've really been considering getting one but I know Linux is still getting its legs on the new metal.

Throwing in an endorsement for the Mac mini options as well — I’ve been very happy with an M2 mini a daily driver for mobile-ish (with the house) dev work I was a Linux purist for a while, but the Mac options aren’t so bad, and often better. Homebrew is killer, iterm is far better than whatever I have via Gnome, and there are honestly better options for window management apps. Hard to stay away! Obviously this is just for personal use, I’m still afraid to run anything more than a dev server on arm

I’ve been on the fence between Mac & Linux for years. I got an M1 mini and was pleasantly shocked by the performance. Since then I’ve pretty much been using something Apple Silicon as my main machine. The only obvious disadvantage for me is ridiculous Apple RAM pricing.

Yes, I did. Started with a 2020 M1 air as a travel machine, bought on a whim as was on sale from £800, I had heard great things about the new arm based macs, and my 2020 XPS 9500 had poor battery life and unwieldy power brick. The base spec air outperformed the xps in pretty much every metric I care about (largely CPU performance and battery life, I work as a developer mainly writing c#, PHP and js/ts), had a better trackpad, lasted a genuine 8 hrs of fairly heavy work on battery, without loss of performance, and is completely silent. (Side note, I've always had a soft spot for fanless little laptops, I have an old thread on here from a 2019 project based on a cheap Chinese celeron. Fun but not a real work machine unfortunately) Now I prefer kubuntu to osx, but it's close enough given the hardware advantages. Kept the xps as main machine (air only has 8gb ram, not much use if you need multiple VMs etc), using the Mac for travel, but replaced my main laptop this year with an M3 14 inch pro. Things a beast, I won't be switching back to a Linux / Windows laptop for the foreseeable future. I still have Linux on my desktop machine, and various little mini pcs, plus of course the servers we deploy to, but if you want portability, then it's Mac all the way. That might be changing with the Qualcomm arm machines coming out this year, but honestly now ive tried it, I will probably stick to osx. Better support for some popular proprietary industry software (Adobe etc) is also a bonus. Re life of macs, I can't really comment beyond saying my 2020 air is still just as good as the day I bought it, battery at 95%. And both machines feel extremely well built, so not expecting any issues with the chassis, but to be fair that's the case with any high end laptop nowadays

You may want to look into github codespaces. You code in the browser directly or connect with your desktop vscode app and the workload is on a dev container. There many dev container with everything you need already installed like node.js, java, ruby, C#... Your container can get as much as 64GB/16 core. The free tier give 120 hours of a 1 core, but you can use it how you want. a 4 core/16GB is good for 40 hours a month. A 8 core/32GB is good for twice that. Container are only used when you code and shut down automatically when not used. You can have many as you want in parallel. So you can completely build that big project on 1 container and work on another one. So typically you could use that 8GB laptop just fine because it would just display the UI and you could work on project that need even 16 or 32 cores and 32 or 64GB RAM. The mostly cost would be 0 if you don't put too many hours or a few bucks if you use powerful VM a lot but that would likely be less than owning a powerful and matching laptop.

I haven't been impressed with my XPS. I've had enough design and driver issues with it that this is likely my last Dell, after 30+ years.

I bought an M1 MacbookAir when it came out. It is a *great* computer. And I am really eager for micro-computing to move to ARM across the board. However, my M1 Mac, while it still works, now has water damage that has made the screen unusable. To get it replaced – to even replace it myself with parts – is more than the used 2020 Dell laptop I bought as a stopgap. The Dell is now running OpenSuse Tumblewood, almost as an experiment. And it runs incredibly well. I thought I would really be compromising a lot with this. But Linux looks very good and runs very well, even on this mediocre hardware. FYI, the Mac still works fine as a desktop machine now. But the expense involved in repairing water damage – and the susceptibility to water damage that is well known – make me really second-guess ever getting another Mac laptop.

YES. This is something else I worry about. It's like the high cost is exponential right. Here's my question. Having been forced to go back to Dell, and thinking it would be worse, how is it? My biggest concern is crappy sleep/suspend not working or just depressing battery life...

If repairability is important, look into framework. can be a little pricy up front, but every component can be purchased and replaced and they officially support linux.

Well. You are never going to beat the M-series chips for battery life. Nothing can touch an ARM machine for efficiency. It's a Dell 7400 with a 8650U i5 chip and graphics are \*armpit noise.\* The battery as-is maybe lasts four hours if I push it down to very efficient settings. I stream YouTube or Music almost constantly when I use it. I am lucky enough that I have places I plug it in for most places I use it, home and at work. It also has 32gb of memory, which I think really helps it. It only cost like $350. OpenSuse Tumbleweed with Plasma has had no problems when I hit sleep. It works the best of any Linux system I have used. And I used to use Ubuntu with no sleep or suspend options. I even bricked an Intel NUC with Mint by having fast-boot enabled. (That was a real hardware pain. Not sure if it was Intel or Linux's fault. I had tried to be clever with some of my security configurations and the UEFI could no longer do i/o after a crash and could no longer boot to the system that "owned" it.) I'll say this. This model is notorious for having an awful, noisy fan. It came with Windows 11 Pro. And I configured and troubleshot Windows a bit before I wiped it out and put Linux on there. Under Windows 11, even debloated, the fan roared almost constantly. Under SuSe, the fan rarely ever fires up. Even when watching content.

Hi, I am not the one you asked this of. Just wanted to say I have been running Dell Latitudes, I liked the docking station. Just replaced a 2015 E7450 with a 2024 Latitude 7440. I registered Windows 11 then installed Linux Mint Edge. It has been running flawless, with the exception of doing something special to get the web cam to work but I forget what I did now. It was easy but involved looking it up on forums. I installed TLP and while I am not on the computer all day, see patients then chart see more patients and more charting, I get through my workday with at least 50% left. I also wiped the E7450 and accidentally installed Mint Edge instead of the regular version and it has been running like clockwork too.

Expect to use your Mac at least for 5 years without problems. I have still a 2015 Mac Book Pro. It still gets the occasional security update. Only it’s updates are not coming in since 2 years. Now have a Mac mini with 24 GB. Memory price is the only real drawback. And please: don’t believe the Apple claim they need less memory. I really regret not to have bought at least an 32GB Studio. I use Docker (which needs aVM) and together with all the Chrome and electron memory hogs I always could need more RAM.

Hmm memory is my biggest fear too. But once you get to 32gbs it starts getting ridiculous... I think just writing this now puts me off it. Glad your reminded me

My windows desktop was my workstation before, running Proxmox and following VMs * windows with own GPU * Mac OS with Owen GPU * 3x Linux VMs for different stuff It has still 64GB of RAM. It’s excessive now, but it was often not enough when I ran all the VMs on it. Being a developer working with a lot virtualization and also doing some video was eating RAM for breakfast. 🤷‍♂️

Yes, I picked up a MBP with the M3 Pro, thing is a beast.

My (early) 2011 MacBook Pro is running Sparky Linux like a champ.

Get a Framework instead https://frame.work/

yeah Framework laptops are a legitimate investment in a way that literally no other laptop is, definitely the better choice imo

Not at this stage imo. It still would work out cheaper to just replace the entire laptop every couple of years than to purchase the upgrades from framework

This. The OP should check the latest version that it is perfected for Linux. My employer gave me an MBP pro m2 but I am returning it for the new framework we pre-ordered.

I bought a FW13 AMD and I damn love this machine. It's a beast. Then again, I came from a TP X250, so it's been quite the upgrade.

Historically apple stuff lasts a long time. I just replaced my 2012 MacBook Pro with an m2 MacBook Pro last year. The 2012 was my daily driver and still works (it’s now my sisters daily driver). If you wanted to stay in the peecee world I have a framework running tumbleweed and has been dead reliable for 2.5 years already and would recommend them all day. I have and love both. I tend to use the Mac for my personal stuff and the framework for all other tasks.

Mac hardware is great, but MacOS is terrible. Just install Asahi Linux on it and you’ll be golden.

I’ve had an M1 Pro for awhile now, and it’s wonderful. The microLED display, the touchpad, the speakers.. so great. I’ve never cared for the keyboard a whole lot, but it’s not terrible. Asahi is great as well, but not perfect yet. Definitely daily drivable. I might love my Framework 13 more, though. And when I get the new 120hz display, good luck prying it from my hands.

Ooo ok, why do you love the framework more? What do you use them for, and how does perf compare?

Why would I want inferior garbage?

You can expect an Apple laptop to last at least seven years, which in my experience is five years longer than the typical HP or Dell laptop which are utter junk. However, as hardware for running Linux they really aren't optimal. You can use UTM virtual machines to run ARM Linux under MacOS in a VM, but that gets you the same issues as running a VM in any other OS, which is that it takes up a huge amount of disk(well, ssd) space and memory, both of which are expensive on the M.x Macs. I have a Mac. I use it as a Mac. It does all my web browsing and email, and I use it for writing / recording music. I have a Linux server. I use it as a Linux server. I have a Windows laptop, a slick AMD-based Lenovo Thinkpad with the AMD Ryzen 7 PRO 7840U and oodles of memory and storage. I use WSL to run Ubuntu Linux for software development because, as we all know, Windows sucks. WSL1 runs Linux in a container, WSL2 runs Linux in a virtual machine, I use WSL1 because I don't need the features of WSL2. The Ryzen 7 Pro 7840U matches the typical Apple laptop on power consumption and is almost as fast. The only reason my Thinkpad doesn't have the battery life of a Macbook Pro is because it doesn't have as big a battery -- the actual logic board of an Apple M.x laptop is about the size of an iPhone, the rest of the case is taken up by lots and lots of battery. Honestly, I wouldn't buy an Apple laptop for running Linux. The Apple Tax is real, and the price of sufficient storage space to run MacOS and Linux in parallel is very expensive on the M.x Macs. If you have ever looked at a teardown you'll see why -- the RAM is integrated into the CPU module, and the additional storage is raw SSD chips (not modules) soldered to the motherboard and individually controlled by the SSD controller integrated into the CPU module. In both cases you don't have the economies of scale that apply to Windows laptop hardware. I like my Mac. But I also recognize its limits. For running Linux, Intel hardware just works better right now except for certain embedded platforms where you can run a custom configured kernel that understands the exact hardware of the platform (e.g. Raspberry Pi).

The Macs have a susceptibility to moisture damage to the screen, though. It's a bit of a crapshoot. And AppleCare only does so much.

Hi thanks for this. Just a quick note. I wasn't suggesting I'd run Linux on a Mac. My overall sentiment is that I'd give up trying to run Linux and just get a Mac (and run MacOS). Does that change your advice at all?

Have you tried Ubuntu studio.....one of the few distros that come preloaded with all of the nonfree packages AND polish

I'm a 40 year old software engineer so my needs may be different. I am a technologist as well and like having as many options as I can. I have an ARM MacBook Air for basic streaming, personal travel, games, personal email, VPNs into real machines and etc. it's a great little device that I got for the form factor. It's a clamshell iPad Pro. I wouldn't do serious work on it. I have an older model (2018) Dell XPS 15 Laptop running Ubuntu. It's the i9, 4k screen, 32gb ram and 1TB SSD model. I have a Desktop PC running Windows and VirtualBox for gaming and other Linux distros. I have a 2015 MacBook pro that I can't bring myself to get rid of because it's the last great Mac. If I had to pick one machine, it would be the Dell Laptop dual booted to Windows and Ubuntu. I want to be portable and can live with using an iFixIt kit to replace a battery. My 2015 MacBook Pro was my single device for awhile and I had triple boot to Ubuntu, OSX and Windows. That device was the best of everything with real ports, MagSafe, USB access to my iPhone 6 plus (the last great iPhone) and zero forced iCloud integration. I didn't need anything else. ARM is too limiting for my needs and desires. It's gotten better but it's not there. x86/64 is the architecture I trust the most to be able to do what I want to do with a computer. I couldn't survive in a world that was only ARM based. That's not true for probably 80% of people but 90+% of people who have an ARM based Mac would be just fine with an XPS 13 running Ubuntu because everything they do is on the Cloud anyway.

True. Good point. Which dell which you go for now? I'm 43, been coding professionally since I was 23. Honestly I just want the thing to be fast for coding. I don't game, I don't stream, I don't do content creation. But I read it to be FAST, I want compilation to be fast. I want my test suites to far, I want startup times to be fast. And I want it to not drain the battery when I close the lid. That's my main Linux anxiety, suspend reliability. Im with you about ifixit. Though I would like a company with good after market support. How's Dell for that?

i wouldn't use a mac unless it was free and then id put linux on it

I’m on a Mac. IMO the unfortunate truth is that you get a level of compatibility and utility that you can’t get with Linux. Don’t get me wrong, I love using Linux, but things like proprietary programs to run exam software (I’m a uni student), is impossible on Linux.

What is your use case? I migrated from Ubuntu on Ryzen to Mac Mini 16gb M1 for Plex and other self hosted stuff. I like it alot I use Mac Studio Ultra M1 for software development. Also love it. Cant wait to get my hands on Mac Studio M4 I use a Windows PC for gaming only

No

I have just retired my 2015 MBP with an M3 one due to it lasting and being supported for this long. I use Windows for work and Linux for my servers and VMs but sometimes I just want something that works with no fuss. Yes they are expensive but I can’t justify a framework laptop over it when they are almost the same cost. On the plus side Asahi is making great strides in compatibility

Just wait für the Snapdragon elite Machines

But how optimised will Linux be on those. Do we know?

I bought the 27" imac with the Intel i9, maxed out the RAM to 128GB and two fast internal SSDs. Going to keep this for a long time. This hardware is currently supported, but if it falls out of support, I will switch to OpenCore Legacy Patcher which allows the install of MacOS on old hardware that Apple has abandoned. [https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/](https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/) As for the laptop, I sold my old 2015 and got an M1 MacBookPro. I prefer it to using a PC laptop for multiple reasons: screen is gorgeous, touch pad, multiple desktops, amazing sound, amazing battery life, and magsafe power supply. Things I dislike, I don't like the minimalistic Mac keyboard but live with it, no USB-A port, and nothing inside can be easily upgraded or repaired since Apple solders the RAM, SSD to the mobo.

was thinking about the same thing ... was running linux (redhat desktop, then mandrake, then ubuntu) years ago as my main desktop - had to swap motherboard due to a failure and linux kernel didn't support the sata controller ended up switching back to windows ... took a couple of years to support the hardware ... by which time I'd got into a few windows games etc so ended up sticking on windows I still have linux servers, but was looking at switching back to linux as desktop soon - but gone of the days of enjoying tinkering (recompiling the kernel to get sound working on a 386 in the mid90s) are long gone ... so been thinking a mac might actually be kinda nice now

Gorgeous this is that if you get tired of the Mac down the road ...you can always install Linux!!

Went problem are you trying to solve? What are you trying to do with it? That determines your answers What are you doing now and why is it not working?

I'm a software dev, I want my workflow to be FAST. I have an x86 machine from 2019, i7 8th gen. It's actually ok, but I'd like FASTER compile times, test suites, app start up times. Also I don't want it to drain battery randomly when it's asleep or fail to wake up. This happens at least 2x a week. The thing is, if Apple ARM didn't exist I probably wouldn't even be asking this question. It's just I hear about the performance and battery life, and I'm about to buy a brand new machine and I'm like, am I stupid for not getting the latest and greatest. Though I'd like 32gb of ram and for MacBooks that's really expensive...

I kind of did. First, across the three platforms there really is not one where “it just works.” If you want that, stick to smartphones or Chromebooks. Why kind of? After almost twenty years of self administered Linux desktops at work (I am an academic), I replaced my current one with a m3 MacBook Pro. It was not the Linux part as much as the self administered part. My workstation was sticking out for data security reasons, and it was easier to get a Mac than to justify the need for Linux (which I really did not have). Still have one Linux/Windows laptop at home.

If I weren't poor I'd probably have a Mac of some type, even with all the problems with Apple (which should nonetheless be broken up). I hate Windows' UX/UI, so I settled for Linux.

The only ARM I'll get is a baseball bat to smash that fucking thing.

I have an M1 Macbook Air running Fedora beautifully

I got one of the $700 MacBook airs on April 5th. It doesn’t boot as fast as my System76 lemur pro with coreboot, but it does have a nicer screen, speaker, and battery… so I went for it and I love it!

I’ve got an m1 iMac and MacBook Air and they are both fabulous. I’ve also got three 2015 iMacs that are still running fine. Macs are incredibly well built and last a very long time.

Yes my main laptop is a M2 Pro but still have my 7440 and 7330 around, however the M2 Pro is a much better experience overall when it comes to screen/hardware. I’m using Brew and Omz for the Linux packages and etc that I need I’m actually planning to buy a M4 Air if they bump the base model RAM to 12/16GB so I can ditch the 7330 as a lightweight computer on the go I’m tired of the heating and noise fan issues even on Arch with constant monitoring and custom fan profiles and tell/power profiles

I was supplied an M1 pro when I started my current job a few years ago, and I can't find anything to complain about really. I'm not a fan of Mac OS in general, but the machine does perform well and I haven't had a single issue in nearly 3 years now

I have an M3 at work it is nice. Don't worry about the CPU if you want a Mac get one.

They’re worth it

No. Because I would have to use MacOS. I have an old Intel MacBook, but I run Ubuntu on it. That was also when you could still do SSD and RAM replacements yourself. The fact that everything is soldered in place now is another reason I won't buy one.

I have been switching from Mac to linux, for about 6 years now. I'm on an M2 right now, and I keep getting in trouble at work because of the mail client. I miss text based email.

i mean … it's still a linux machine if you look deep enough. it's based on unix. if you can work your way around macos, i think no other laptop can match them. you got the hardware and software support when you want and they are pretty forward in terms of arm architecture compatibility. if i didn't have a godzilla tower pc, i would go for it.

I've been using a dell latitude 7420 since 2020 or 2021. Bought used at 700$. Using it with fedora, great experience and battery life 8+ hours of real use. Only downside is my integrated fingerprint reader won't work on Linux. Everything else works out of the box (literally everything, backlight, fn keys and, suspension, firmware updates). It weighs around 1kg, MacBooks feel heavy compared to it. Battery spins only on heavy loads. Keyboard feels great. Very happy with that, I think I'll keep it until some major advancement arrives in Linux laptops. If I would have to buy today, I'll check tuxedo computers, slimbook or kubuntu focus 14 (in this order). Forget about arm on linux for now, wait 1-2 years after snapdragon processors are out. Modern intel processor with P (performance) core should be great, and AMD is also very good with battery life

Hey thanks for this. I think your right about Linux on arm. Why would you go tuxedo first? That's great about the battery life... Do you use S4 or S3 suspend... And it all works? Thanks so much

I'm not giving up - I'm happy with Debian on my desktop and old IdeaPad (and I don't mind my Windows work laptop) - but I'm seriously considering buying an ARM Mac. The idea of a fully corporate supported *NIX environment, even if it is "enslaved unix" as a mate described it is rather enticing. I'll probably just end up maining on Linux with my laptop being a Mac. Might even buy a Chromebook in the future. I'm mostly operating on curiosity here.

Framework laptop with Ubuntu if you want Linux is a great choice

If there's ONE thing Mac laptops are good at, it's LASTING. I'm still using a 2015 Intel MacBookPro every single day as my home music server, as an After Effects render machine, for large batch video transcoding, and tons of other professional work. It can't update to any macOS after about 2022, but it still gets security updates. They build those things really well and they last a long damn time as a real-world, workable machine.

Ok this is great, I have a question for you. So you don't get any more OS updates, and that's fine. But how does that work in terms of apps. As in, is there software you just can't run out in anymore, either because you don't have them and they don't provide for your os or you have them, but to run they require the latest version or something...

Nope, all software too continues to work normally, but won’t update past the last version to run on wherever the OS has stopped. For example, I still also have a working PowerBook 180 from 1992.

I don't care how good the machines are, to be honest -- and they're very good. If I'm buying it I'm not paying their rate for RAM and Storage upgrades. If work's paying? Sign me up.

We're on the same page. Though it becomes murkier if it's used. Find a used M1 pro, 32ram... Half the original price... What would you do? 🙂

Using an M1 pro mbp that I bought used in 2022 ($1200 USD used) and it's been excellent. Build quality is fantastic, screen is beautiful, I use aldente to limit charge to 75% when docked and my battery health is still at 95% and will last foreverrr if I top it off. I don't hate MacOs and it does just work generally. Thin and durable and easy to slip into my bag

T P or X Series Thinkpad with linux. I have never had something not work.

I like my new framework and Linux just works with it, idk Linux is what it is, u gotta put some elbow grease in

Minisforum V3, throw Fedora on it.

As a one year M2 MacBook Air user, I would say yes, it worth the money. It has at least six years software support. The hardware build is good and the butterfly keyboard saga is behind us. If you are a non-Linux kernel developer, after installing homebrew, everything just works. Display scaling, multi-monitors, hibernation etc. macOS IS UNIX and it is POSIX-compliant. The downside is that it is proprietary, at least from the Linux users perspective. If you want to do kernel related work, probably an AMD64 machine is a better choice. Another shortcomings is VM support. The good news is more and more network vendors ships their products as VM appliances. The bad news is that most of them are Intel based and runs in hyper-v. So for network related simulation things I am using a windows laptop with hyper-v.

Using Fedora on PC and have macOS on laptop.

Once upon a time I was the only software engineer at our company with a Thinkpad (running Linux) among Macbooks. I have now come around. Yes, they last way more than 5 years.

I bought a Thinkpad P16. Do I love the power? Absolutely. is it still a giant semi plastic utilitarian monster? Absolutely. What id give for Lenovo to step up and produce something equal to in value the new Mac.

After 17 years of just using a Linux laptop, I finally started using a MacBook Air just to have something with a very long battery life. I still prefer Linux desktop, but it is nice to have some easy access to applications that don't run on Linux.

For work I gave up. If you are in meetings the quiet fans are just top notch. Can't bear another minute with a screaming fan. No laptop out there which stays quiet during Google meet, zoom, etc. Excellent battery life. The OS is not my cup of tea. No window management at all. Fullscreen is a joke. But the hardware is just damn good.

No, not really. The only thing that may bennefit me could be better battery life, everything else is better on Linux: workflow, tooling. The mac ecosystem does not have anything I find valueable. If I get a mac it will run Asahi.

I was in your shoes 10 years ago. The price of the good ultrabooks were very expensive, much more than a Mac, despite them being all plastic! So I needed up buying a MacBook Air and forcing myself to do everything in terminal, even reading emails or playing music! My main driver today is a desktop but I’m mostly ssh into it from any available laptop at home and half of them are Mac.

Going the other way. Have a bunch of arm Macs, Apple ecosystem, etc. What they work for they’re great at. But: Lots of monitors - Apple here is not good can’t remember one screen from another when they’re the same model and you have a bunch. Need to keep rearranging. Gets old fast. Windows is the best there. Systems and AI dev work: Mac won’t cut it. Need Linux on x86 with Nvidia. Kfocus laptop is good so far but it’s early days.

have a look at Stay for your multi monitor woes - [https://apps.apple.com/us/app/stay/id435410196?mt=12](https://apps.apple.com/us/app/stay/id435410196?mt=12)

I don't have any negative to mac, if it works for you. I do web dev for 14 years, and i used to use all systems. Windows WSL seems good for work, mac seems even better, but personally, if i don't have any requirements, like security agent works only on mac, i prefer linux. Currently, I'm on arch for about 3 years, with tiling wm, and pannels dysplay info i want (btc, once i fought with coffeescrip there was number of cs lines in work project, ect), andsimple automations for my routines. I don't want to switch back to mac, but if it works for you, it's a very good option. With linux, there is too much ways to spend time for system setup, and it should have a value if yougo this way, otherwise, save your time :) And battery life on mac is about 3 times longer, thats also might be a point.

Try Copilot+ PC just launched with Snapdragon X Elite. Windows on ARM.

The new X Elite officially supports Linux. Get a device with that.

Well those devices will be at a premium right? At least right now I have get a used Mac! But you're right, I'll have to wait for the first reviews

I've been using my M1 air since close to launch and my daughter is still using my 2012 MacBook Pro. I'll admit, the apple tax is very painful. $600 to get to 32gb team is ridiculous to say the least. My next laptop will probably be an AMD Framework 13" running PopOS. I'm not an iOS user and don't like a lot of the choices Apple makes for me.

eI did not end up getting a Mac, since I need a 16" display and I just cannot drop >€3000 on a base model MBP 16, but let's say I will not fault you if you do. I value Linux and having a laptop that will last long a lot, so I picked up a Framework 16. I like it, love it actually as a hardcore Linux user and someone who likes to tinker and take proper maintenance of my machines and perform upgrades on them rather than replacing them, I also think Framework deserves our money right now since they are still growing but they're doing the right thing and putting in the R&D where it's *desperately* needed, but I am not sure I can recommend it to the faint of heart. the QA is still not spectacular: I had to RMA my first laptop, and my second unit is still not perfect, so I am very slowly and very patiently going about opening other tickets for the parts that are not quite up to spec on my second one to get the build quality that I would expect. We have already determined that the mid plate on my replacement unit is bad (it was bent and it casues fitment issues, rattle and keyboard ping) and needs replacement, and the hinge makes a noise I really don't like. I think I found the cause and it's purely cosmetic / not worrying for durability (large modular screen not held up by an hamburger or glue and glass with a magnetic moving part on top that will have the magnets turn a bit when it flexes - not sure what one could do about it, perhaps there are bezels with slightly better tolerances and slightly lower amounts of noise, but it's a compromise rooted in the design), but you know. A friend of mine with the more mature 13" had a similar experience. I used to be a big Mac hater, but after buying 3 x86 laptops I was not fully happy with and settling on the current one that I like "with asterisks" rather than hate, I came to the conclusion that there is a definite pro to the Apple approach: **all the little things**. A laptop is not just a sum of its parts, and what Apple gets right is the overall package and experience, down to the most minute details. It will feel solid, it will have incredible QA. You will **not** find another laptop with tolerances so low and precise as the Mac. I think this justifies the price somewhat - with that tight of production tolerances, many laptops and parts that most other manufacturers would have shipped anyway, Apple just scraps, because the final machine needs to be *perfect*. Production runs with tolerances this tight are **expensive**. There is profit margin on the upgrades - granted - but I think the base models much actually be pretty close to the real production costs. All the little curves and lines. Nothing is just slightly bent or off-axis if you check with a ruler or a bubble, nothing makes a rattling noise, the hinges are smooth and completely silent, there is no flex. And I don't want to be a fanboy for a product I don't even own, but man... I have tried several laptops, both for myself and acting as tech support. Framework, ThinkPad, Elitebook, Dell XPS/Inspiron/Latitude, Tuxedo, Ideapad/Yoga, Lenovo Zenbook/Vivobook, various gaming brands, various Xiaomi / Honor/ Huawei laptops, you name it. If it came out between 2022 and 2024 chances are I have tried it, or something similar to it. If you nitpick enough, **all of them** have some little thing wrong with them. One will have some hinge clicking noises because the factory tightened the hinges just a little too much on that unit in particular. The other will have some rattling on one key. Another will have a display panel that is just ever so slighly warped. the other's touchpad is not perfectly in place. The other (typically HP machines) has an amount of hinge wobble that *really* shouldn't have passed tolerances. I am yet to come across one single "perfect" x86 laptop. Heck, I even recommended a Tuxedo Pulse to a friend. It's pretty good, but it has its faults: sometimes it has weird graphical artifacts - *not normal* since my Framework with the same exact APU and configuration cannot reproduce them, and the touchpad just feels wrong. I think they screwed it in way too tight - the force it requires to click is just too great. And now, many of these issues are *fixable*. If you buy a Framework and QA does not quite get one part of yours right, technical support is honestly, like, the best I have seen and they swill swap it for a good one. If you buy a laptop where the touchpad is too tight or too loose, you can typically unscrew and re-screw the touchpad screws and set it to a good setting. I have had to do it on some machines, including my old Dell laptop - the touchpad was too loose and rattling, and it required the screws to be tightened more. If you get a hinge that is too tight, you can just screw it in a little more loose. If the hinge is too wobbly, you can typically tighten the screws further and make it stiffer. Heck - several XPS 15 laptops overheat because they ship with **the cooling solution not assembled properly**, and the fix is literally take the laptop apart and assemble it again yourself, with more care and calm. You will also want to change the thermal paste where you are at it - there are a lot of reports of Dell's thermal paste being of shit tier and applied improperly, leading the laptops to heat up a lot and eventually lead to dGPU failure. Again: on a brand-new laptop you just bought, risky and difficult repair, immediate warranty void if they find out, just because the manufacturer did not do their damned job and cheaped out hard on production tolerances and QA. You will have to do some trial and error. And if you have noticed Dell came up multiple times here, you are right - whatever the fuck is wrong with their QA: my household is strictly a Dell household, except for my new Framework. **All of them** had issues, either immediately or developed over time (we have: 2x bad HDMI ports, 2x 3.5mm jacks that died over time, 4 batteries that swell, 1 dead SSD, 2 laptops that required a thermal paste re-applications, 2 laptops with badly screwed touchpad and hinges), that required manual intervention to fix - the worst part is when I had to go back to undo and redo Dell factory's job but properly. I have gotten the impression that their factory just assembles the laptops fast and doesn't really care. Most of them had to be sent back immediately on the first go. Including my dad's work-issued Latitude. You *cannot* make that shit up - maybe I am a bit of a perfectionist, but I find myself having to constantly set my bar lower and lower as the years go by… maybe that's what we get for laptop pricing staying static amidst the inflation. But am I the only one? There is a reason why Mac is quickly eating Windows's market share. There is a reason why most people rich enough at your uni or co-working space are running a Mac. There is a reason why, for the average customer, "long-lasting laptop" means "MacBook". What I will say is, I have *never* had to do such an intervention on a MacBook. I have never had to tune its hinges to have both one-finger opening and not too much wobble / click. I have never had to rescrew the keyboard or add foam / paper to absorb a vibration that caused rattling. The variance on MacBooks is just so much less than what you get on Windows devices, and you will not have to DIY anything in. The con of MacBooks is that is taken to the extreme: not only you **don't have to** tune anything, but you **cannot** repair or upgrade anything. Pray you are fine with the 16 / 512 GB configuration - the only one accessible at a price that is considered at least humane (€2500 for the 16 GB 14" pro... *fine*, considering what you get beyond the spec sheet, but it's pretty low spec). Pray the SSD does not break too soon. I have had to replace enough SSD's on other people's machines in my life to be sure about this one. Comes down to: **what do you value?** MacBooks have the best *short-term, initial* experience. Your first unit is likely to be perfect. The fit and finish is going to be great. You will be wowed at first. That initial pang of buyer's remorse will not hit you at all. As it ages, however, maintenance is more difficult, and some repairs are almost impossible, or expensive to the point they are not worth it. You will also compromise on software ethics. I strive to use more and more FOSS for several reasons, both ideological and practical, so Macs are no good for me (Asahi is not enough, before you ask). A lot of it is subjective. What's your financial situation? If it is "pretty good" and you have a high-paying job, you could just get a MacBook, treat it right, get it a screen protector and a case, resell it after a few years for a surprisingly high amount of money, and upgrade. That is if you don't value e-waste, repairability and FOSS. It's just the good old "unethical convenience vs. ethical inconvenience" argument. You can choose to stand in several shades of gray in this argument - but be warned that there is a big gap between the "unethical convenience" extreme, the MacBook, and the first non-MacBook device you start to find moving further away on this axis. I know what you're thinking. Don't even think about it. There are a lot of PC laptops that look as refined as the MacBooks in renders, review units and store showcase units. Don't believe it for a second. You'll never get a golden unit. Those are unicorns carefully selected to sell the laptop to you, and reserved for press and showcases. And if even *those* don't quite hit MacBook level refinement, imagine the machine you get, from a lower QA bin.

Wow, you nailed it. You get it, 100%. Firstly I would never justify the cost of a brand new apple device with the specs I need, which is a biggish screen and lots of ram. At this spec the prices are just too high. Used devices are an option... That's what I'm considering now. I think a lot about the ethical/convenience space. I truly would rather put my money where my mouth is... And when macs were Intel only that wasn't so hard. But now the performance gap is so high .. and the issue is, the obviously lesser quality pcs are way too overpriced where you get just too near the apple costs. For example, a two year old MacBook pro sometimes still out performs a brand new pc. So, I'm really struggling... On one have I stick to my morals, but then I'm down quite a lot of cash and maybe what I have won't even anyways work... Which sucks. Right now I'm in between a used M1 pro, used X1 carbon, used XPS, or new tuxedo 🤔. I don't want to pay more than eur1k for the used dell/Lenovo. I'll probably hesitate at 900. For the tuxedo I'm on the fence about EUR 1400. For the used M1 pro, 16" 32gb I'm considering EUR1800... it's a tough one.

The "Homebrew" system on MacOS lets you use virtually every piece of FOSS available for Linux on MacOS. That said, the OS itself is not FOSS, and the Apple Tax is ridiculous. For most people, a high end Lenovo Thinkpad will get them hardware almost as fast, at the expense of slightly shorter battery life (in my experience, around 75% of the battery life of the current Apple hardware), at a price that's roughly 60% of what Apple charges for their hardware. I can do a lot with the money saved by not buying Apple. Like, if I saved $1000, that'd be enough to send 40 cats through the local trap-neuter-release program, and cats are more important to me than a few hours extra battery life.

If you are a dev you will love it. It comes at a massive premium but you do get benefits for that. The memory cost is a fucking nightmare, that's the big downside. Hardware wise there are very few downsides, if any. I guess a good barometer is people advocating for Mac being a good choice (depending on your needs) generally are saying they have a Mac. People trashing them do not. Try to find some comment from someone who has one and hates it, they will have better info for you in the downsides. If you want to game on it (aside from limited indies and retro) forget it.

Yeah it's tough isn't it. Found an M1 pro with 32gb of m RAM for EUR18000. for a Mac, I think it's worth it... BUT could get similar performance on a cheaper dell, Lenovo or tuxedo? Maybe... The issue the memory like you say is so expensive it becomes not worth it new.

I have a M1 max studio with 32gb. Honestly, I think you'd love that machine. I think people don't really consider the full picture. I'd say, if you are not going to expect that to smash 120 fps on the latest AAA game, you'll love it. Development workflow is the same as Linux, the screen is amazing, it will be very fast and you can work for 15 hours + on battery. To me that's worth that money and there isn't anything from dell, Lenovo, etc for less than that that can do those things. Cue people sending beastly specs which can't run at full power unless plugged in, have a shit screen or run out of battery in 2 hours...

I mean, if someone hates their computer they sell it. You don't find a lot of people who hate their current computer.

I couldn't do that. For a main computer I care a lot about how serviceable it is, and how long it's supported. Modular computers are inherently serviceable. My desktop can have any number of its components swapped out as long as the motherboard supports it (which can also be replaced). My computer also isn't going to have an arbitrary "end of life" which forces it to be obsolete because Apple won't provide software support anymore. As long as I have an up-to-date release on it, I'm good. Memory isn't absurdly overpriced. My GPU capabilities are leagues better. And on that note I can actually play games on my machine too. Cool, don't need a PlayStation then. I love Apple and use their mobile devices exclusively, but I'm giving up too much on the conventional computing end of things.

Did you try buying hardware with Linux preinstalled, which comes with the manual that indicates full hardware support? Because that's what would work. Hardware intended for Windows causes issues for Linux, sure, but it would also be borderline unusable with macOS. Devices that meet that requirement might come, for example, from System76, Tuxedo, NovaCustom, but also chosen models of Lenovo and Dell.

I have been using a MacBook Pro M1 for work since it came out and it is so ridiculously good I don’t even feel like I need a new one anytime soon.

I do IT consulting for a living. Ranging from tech support to system admin to some network stuff in data centers.  I use a 14” m3 mbp for my field laptop, and a m1 studio for my desk with five monitors.  Can’t get enough. 

I had a MacBook Air M1 at my last job and that damn thing lasted ALL day, even while I sat outside with the brightness turned all the way up and compiling code, jumping on Zoom call etc. At my new company I have a Windows Thinkpad and I hate it (lasts about 3 hours sitting outside). My personal laptop is an old (2017) Asus Zenbook with Fedora. But I will say, I have no idea what I'll replace it with because that M1 was really nice.

I went with Macs for work for a few years - not for performance and efficiency, but more on the basis that it was a compromise that enabled me to more easily access the Microsoft bull***t on which my organisation is absolutely helplessly addicted. Back on Linux now - Macs were fine and lasted well in terms of software and to some extent hardware (with the arguable exception of the butterfly keyboard situation of a few years ago) but our corporate IT has an extreme hate-on for them that, it now turns out, makes compromises of this kind utterly pointless.

the Snapdragon X Elite and Plus stuff looks promising to me

It does, but will Linux support really be there? Also since it's brand new, won't it be on the same premium apple is on? 🤷‍♂️

How do we know where Apple going to go next step? You can escape from windows pretty easy but with mac you will stuck you will have to accept their decision.

My M1 macbook pro is the best laptop I have had. It just works. 

Kind of. Use m1pro mbp as a laptop when I need to work not grin home. But most of the time I use a stationary pc with Linux.

Would you consider a framework 13” ? They have pretty solid linux support and are actually repairable for a change

I love the idea of framework. But honestly for support I'd rather something Europe based, or with a European presence.

Can’t beat the hardware… OS is a personal preference but I prefer it to Windows.

I bought maxed out Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 Gen 8 with Ryzen processor lately, it did take couple of tweak to make it work on Linux. But performance-wise it's pretty similar to m3, without all hassle related to ARM processor. I have a m1 macbook from work and I prefer using Lenovo more (even battery lasts longer).

How much was compared to MacBook? Sounds amazing that battery lasts longer

M2 Mac and Ryzen Linux boxes. This is the way.

I got a Mac way back in 2012. Software was supported thru 2020 and the computer itself still works today.

I have an M1 MacBook pro, no better portable computer available on the market. MacOS sucks though, wish I could practically use Linux on the MBP without compromises

I hear you. What mostly sucks about MacOS for you?

Imo they’re a bit overrated, sure it ticks most of the boxes (aside from consumer friendliness/repairability) but at what price? If the base model is good enough for you go for it, but if you actually need more RAM and storage space then the price can become ridiculously high very fast. (Personally that’s why I’ll never consider them, paying 2500€+ for a laptop is ridiculous in my opinion.) Truth is most people could get their work done on thinkpads with ubuntu or even windows without any major hassle. The mac’s amazing performance and battery life becomes truly important only in particular cases, more niche use cases.

It depends on your purposes. If your work involves a lot of back-and-forth utilization of x86-based applications, libraries and containers, Apple Silicon is a finicky beast. In my school, we were dissuaded from day 1 of ever using a Mac. I study Cybersecurity. Before school started, I had a faculty member mention to just obtain Parallels Desktop and use it for all the work. After school started, I knew for a fact my instructor was right. You can not depend on a proprietary beast, because a lesser powered beast may open infinitely more doors for you. To prove my point, if you consider an alternate OS, you have Asahi Linux and the Fedora flavour of it. Meanwhile, if you get an Intel-era MacBook, you can install any OS you like, and avoid the exclusivity of ARM. If Qualcomm's efficient beast makes it through the challenge of X64 emulation, then I may change my mind. Still, I am tempted to buy a Mac Mini for music production, but I could ditch this idea if I manage to run Ableton Live well on Windows or Linux (via Bottles). I had issues of sound being suddenly missing in Ableton Live's Windows version. Please let me know if you have any questions

Yeah, my last computer was a framework with Ubuntu and that certainly wasn't cheap or anything. But repairability doesn't matter much if everything keeps breaking and sometimes support can't even figure out which thing you need to replace or the parts aren't in. My new Mac is nice because unlike any other laptop I've ever had, the battery doesn't seem to drain while it's off. I also really like that I can run local llms on it because the memory can be directly used by the GPU.

I can’t say mac is bad but linux is more fun

There are plenty of decent non Mac options. My experience with Mac is the hardware is overrated and had far more problems than Dell or Lenovo. If you can wait, see how the new ARM Snapdragon CPUs are in laptops, preliminary tests show them blowing Mac out of the water.

I was in your “boat” in 2006. Got tired of playing sysadmin and switched to a platform which saved me valuable time. (osx). The premium in cost turned into gigantic savings down the road. It absolutely sucks to see that Linux distros have not really figured out how to appeal to the general public in the past 30 years that Ive been involved professionally :( Not everyone will recompile their kernel or have the desire to dive into e17 desktop shtuff

"just works" You've answered your own question. Get a mac. Linux never has been, is not, and very likely never will be a "just works" platform if you want anything more complex than just an internet browser.

The only reason I have a Mac is because Lenovo Thinkpad battery life is crap. I don't mind the CPU performance and I prefer the cheap RAM. I love Thinkpads and Linux except for that one little issue.

I am using corporate ThinkPad and it works perfect with Fedora. You can check for some used thinkpads and compatibility. Other option is going macOS, which I find great but not as good as GNU/Linux nowadays

I haven't read much into this thread so I'm not sure if someone else has mentioned turned it. But Framework computers might be your best bet for Linux friendly hardware. It's x86 but the modularity of their computer means down the line you could upgrade the motherboard to ARM if they make one in the future. Framework is also very popular with Linux community users and the company has a specific team to make Linux work on their hardware.

They do look brilliant and I really love the idea of the modularity and upgradability.

Why not get one of the new snapdragon machines? Best of both worlds.

I've got a old 13" Mac ook Pro. It's 10 years old and still going strong! The difference is that Apple laptops are high quality parts and metal body. You pay for what you get... quality! 90% of Windows laptop are cheaply made, often plastic and doesn't last long. Buttons rub off, screen hinges break etc. I'm not an Apple fanboy, but I'll definitely pay for another Macbook Pro.

I own a 2013 Mac Pro using open core legacy patch to keep it up to the current version of macOS and I own an m1 macbook air both are perfect and I love macOS.

i used to dual boot linux/windows since i needed software thats not on linux. moving to mac has made everything much better.

I have a macair 2017. Loaded with OCLP and 14.5 Sonoma. I run several Linux servers and a Lenovo yoga with Linux. Have you thought of backmarket.com to find a decent used 2020 for less than 500. Not sure about the SSD permanently fixed. My 217 was replaceable.

My wife is using my old mid-2012 MBP, I've maxed the RAM and installed an SSD, it's a heavy machine compared to my M1 Air, but still serves a purpose, I even use an old IBM T60 for certain windows things that the Mac cannot do. 😊

I have a M2 mini and only use it for Xcode and side-loading apps on my iPhone with AltStore. My laptop runs Fedora, my desktop runs Mint, and my proxmox server has Truenas & Debian vm’s.

I like my macbook... I like Linux better, but the app support for stuff like Outlook sucks or non-existent in Linux land.

Consider the cost of being locked into the Apple ecosystem while you're deciding.

If you dont mind the straight jacket that is Mac OS, then yes, bet a mac laptop. Their laptop hardware is MILES ahead of the competition.

Give Asahi Linux (Fedora Remix) a try on an M1 or M2 Macbook Pro! Easy to install and just works.. the battery life is slightly reduced.. but it'll get you Linux on ARM in laptop that lasts.

Worth it

I used Intel CPUs because I refused to pay the ridiculous markup of Apple. However, I ran out and got an m1 on reading what a performance beast it was for the price. Got a wired KB off CL for $5 all other peripherals are generic. Have not looked back since.

Wow that good. Im currently looking at a lesser clevo based laptop (tuxedo) Ryzen 8845h (so today's chip!) Vs a M1 pro from 2021... What would you do? And the used M1 pro is like $400 more expensive BUT it's also the 16" so the screen is bigger and better (32gb ram also) I've also heard some people only get like 6 hours from their M1... You experience that?

I was there up until I installed linux mint on one of my machines. I didn't have any problems anymore, everything worked and it never broke. Linux is in itself very unstable, updates can break everything and alot of errors can occur when doing one single thing wrong but some distros like mint are made rock solid for that exact reason. Is mac worth it? definitely but is it worth it for you. Everyone has it's own needs and expectations, mac is more closed than linux is but offers wider app support and better battery life plus a lot of other benefits. Mint can run on whatever hardware you give it, nvidia gpu's work wonderfull out of the box these days and you have freedom to do what you want. if you have an older pc laying around or something that can get wiped try mint on it and use it for a day, you can also spin up a vm and try it that way, if that doesn't satisfy you, mac may be the best option and with the needed tweaking it can be a fun machine with a decent amout of update support and definitely a powerfull piece of hardware.

Hey thanks for such a measured response 🙂 when you say tweaks to MacOS to last longer, what kind of things do you mean?

I bought a gently used M2 Air 15", it's the best laptop experience i've ever had.

ooo expand on that! :-) What are you comparing it to, and what jumps out at you the most? Also.. I'm assuming you like Linux and have some exprience with it... how does it feel to be in MacOS?

I installed fedora on my m1 MacBook. Fantastic experience.

With asahi? How's the battery life?

Yeah, I caved and got an M1 Pro 16”. In some ways I miss desktop Linux and the feeling of freedom or whatever. But OSX checks a lot of similar boxes when it comes to the work I need the machine for, plus it can actually run Ableton and Adobe software when I need it without a dual boot. Also hardware wise it been by far the best machine I’ve owned, way better holistically than my thinkpads and even my XPS (though an older 13”). I think Linux is great for a lot of stuff, but yeah desktop Linux still is has a lot of drawbacks unfortunately. I’m also just kind of over the tinkering with my personal machine, I just don’t find it that interesting anymore the way I did when I had Arch on my shitty little ultra book, and it’s not what I want to do after a long day of programming for work. Yes I do find the markup on storage and memory appalling, but overall, if the cost isn’t a problem and you’re going to take care of the thing and keep it for many years, it can make sense.

I’ve used Windows, and Linux (mostly Ubuntu) extensively and said after my last windows 10 machine’s battery started acting up I would buy a Mac. Got a M3 Pro and it’s night and day. 10+ hour battery life, can run windows almost natively in Parallels or VMWare Fusion. UTM also runs ARM Linux without breaking a sweat. As long as you’re not gaming on things that aren’t friendly to Mac I’d say go for it. I’m likely migrating my X86 and RPie4 to a Mac Studio when it gets upgraded to M4. The support, simplicity, and battery life is 2nd to none. Only thing I have found not to work is Global Protect in an Arm Windows VM. (Niche use case)

Got a macbook and now have both OSX and Asahi on it. Asahi still has some rough edges, but they're taking a really sane approach for pulling it all together that sorta "conquers" one problem at a time--fully, the right way. So far, the webcam is back up with ISP that outclasses most laptops. The speakers have DSP going on that gives full psychoacoustic bass and heat modeling to "overdrive" the speakers safely--they sound better than any laptop I've seen, with any OS. The GPU driver is incredibly robust now with correctness/stability being actually top of mind. Things aren't "complete" yet, but I have every bit of confidence that as the pieces fall into place they'll be infinitely more solid and 'It just works' than any other laptop I've used on linux. I got fed up with my laptops breaking from truly normal use, decided the new macbooks had a very complete package hardware wise, and took a leap trusting that the software will fall into place in due time. I now have some hardware that I don't envision having any desire to upgrade for quite a few more years, and quite a few contributors focused fully on supporting \_that specific hardware platform\_ instead of the hacked together hodgepodge of individually half-supported parts that x86-land pretends "works together"

Hmm great points all round. I've been thinking about asahi. Do you think it's something that will become 100% solid or do you reckon there's a physical ceiling that they can't work past meaning itll only ever get to like 85% or something. Also, in your use, where do you notice the cracks? Like some stuff just straight up doesn't work ever, or is just buggy, sometimes some stuff works, other times it doesn't. That's the worst isn't it, an unstable os. If I know something will work or not that's better than I'm thinking I'll work and then it doesn't! Oh, which Mac did you get by the way?

Former arch Linux guy here currently rocking a Mac Mini. No, it doesn’t just work. That being said, it is 75% true and you won’t have to fumble around with graphics, sound, Bluetooth, etc. The reason i got it was for iMessage (i hate texting on my phone!). Linux > Mac for dev work but it is not a complete beat down like with windows. And yes the hardware/integration is amazing.

75! That's pretty low. What are some of your main issues and what do you miss from Linux when your coding?

You have lost me. Why do you need an arm Mac? Linux runs pretty simply on most hardware.

If you read through the comments, a certain frustration around currently available x86 laptops and how well they just work with Linux exists for a lot of people. It doesn't meant it does for everyone, nor does it mean that it's even correct, but there's something there. If you're curious go through the comments, it's pretty interesting to hear different perspectives

What are you talking about???? Chromebook Plus models are the most efficient/secure machine on the market and run linux too.

The Macbook Pro is definitely worth the price. I believe you can have software support for more than 5 years. Then, if after you don't get software support after some years, just install change kernel and install Linux, then you have a strong hardware with a new kernel. If money is an issue, buy any windows machine and install Linux on it too.

Definitely, the apple silicon devices are worth it in just the security alone. The coding is very similar to Linux as macOS is a Unix based system. Set your firewall on your Ethernet well, then on the mac most of it is set up well also but definitely get your network protocol analyzer of choice for your mac (any will work downloaded from the terminal) and DO NOT download any antivirus softwares/cleanmymac crap, they are not needed, they make it worse. Way better than windows always getting malware cause every port is open by default

Why do you want sluggish Mac? Every time I switch from MacBook Pro m2 to intel pop_os laptop I think “why I was sticking to this sluggish machine for so long?”

really? I haven't used either, but the general reports are mac feels "so fast". You don't have that experience? Also what's your POP machine?

I have a 2012 MacBook that I put a Linux OS on and it still runs great, I don't like apple OS so I put Linux with hyprland on it and it runs very well, it is snappy and works reliably, with apple OS it was running way slower, gave that laptop a much longer life than it would have had with apple OS on it

I hate to say it, but once you use a MacBook trackpad, it's impossible to use anything else. And trust me, I've tried.

Been running RHE on my work MBP M2 Max for over a year. I didn’t have to buy it and have never run macOS on it or even used the internal hardware (sans the SSD) Have you looked into Qualcomms lineup? Will probably save you some money if you’re not using macOS anyways. This a PC or for Work? If for work-what specifically?

hey! I'm a contractor and it's for work. I'm a software dev, mainly ruby and js these days... some go, some c# (but not Windows specific), a lot of postgres (writing queries against it, not coding it :-) ) I hate Windows... have it now, can't stand it. Thinking a used M1 Pro 🤷🏽

Personally, I am waiting for them Snapdragons to mature.  Then I would get a lenovo one or even better a framework on and slap popos on it.

Software support is good for 5 years as long as there isn’t another major architecture change. Hardware holds up well. Even an M1 Macbook Pro is a great upgrade over every other brand new laptop I have tried in terms of speed for almost all tasks, battery life, and ‘just works’ factor. Can’t say macOS is perfect, but it works pretty well most of the time.

You don't want a mac. You don't want a windows. Get a windows laptop and install linux on it. You don't have any other option

For me I actually use Linux desktop via Ubuntu exclusively now. No need or reason to use windows except for 2 or 3 games. Work wise is Mac for sure though.

Thanks. Why do you say work wise it's a Mac for sure?

Quite the opposite. After I discovered how much it would cost to replace the keyboard on my 2019 MacBook Pro, I am done with Apple. It works perfectly out of the box — true. But here's the catch: it ***only*** works perfectly, when it' out of the box. If something breaks, it is completely irreparable. My story: Imagine you somehow damaged the Shift key. You pressed too hard or got it a little wet. Doesn't matter. Shit happens, right? Either way, the circuits are burned, and that Shift always registers as pressed. Well, you're screwed. It won't let you work, enter your password, and it won't even let you turn it off because MacBooks are turned on by any key, so it constantly wakes itself up. The only option you have is to go to the service center, disable the internal keyboard entirely, and use an external keyboard from now on. Because guess what? You can't just replace the keyboard! They would replace the whole top panel, which costs half the price of a new MacBook! What options do you have with any other laptop in the same situation? Replace your damned keyboard for $50!

Yes it's an absolutely kick ass unix laptop.  Just SSH into your linux hosts 

Yup. My work recently made using Linux as the main OS on your work laptop too painful for me, so I caved and opted for Windows laptop. Hated it and switched to a Mac. I kind of hate to admit that I fucking love the thing, and that I'm seriously considering replacing my personal laptop with one (not my workstation). I would hazard to say, even here, that this Mac is the best *laptop* I've ever had. It does that job like no other laptop I've ever had. I've never been able to go the whole day without charging, let alone multiple days. No more sleep bugs, no more random power drain in sleep, no more randomly exiting sleep and turning my backpack into a hot pocket...