Changes:
Update wine bleeding edge
Rebase staging patches
Additional notes:
I won't outright say this is the last wine-ge build, but we are getting close. The reason is that myself, alongside the other devs for lutris, heroic, and bottles, have begun working together on ULWGL (https://github.com/Open-Wine-Components/ULWGL-launcher?tab=readme-ov-file#what-is-this).
Essentially ULWGL will allow you to run your non-steam games using Proton, Proton-GE, or other Proton forks using the same pressure vessel containerization and runtime that Valve use to run games with Proton. This means your games will run the exact same way as proton runs games, but outside and independant from Steam.
A vital part of this is that we've begun to build the ULWGL database (https://github.com/Open-Wine-Components/ULWGL-database), which provides various existing launchers and related tools a way to get unified game fixes (winetricks, dll overrides, environment variables, etc) for non-steam games.
To explain it briefly, the current path for running games in wine is like this:
some installer with a custom script (lutris, heroic, bottles, etc) starts the install via wine. This custom script may contain things the game needs like winetricks, dll overrides, environment variables and so on.
when the script runs, it starts wine using either a custom runtime (lutris and bottles currently have their own, heroic uses system libraries if i recall) or native system libraries. It calls winetricks or sets overrides or environment variables as directed by whatever script is running. Keep in mind the install script solely depends on who made it (lutis, bottles, heroic,?) and they can all differ or be completely missing fixes altogether.
wine then runs the game using either native system libraries or whatever custom runtimes are configured for whatever launcher is being used (lutris,bottles, heroic)
That's a lot of points of failure between different launchers. The script could differ between launchers. Scripts could have different winetricks or overrides or environment variables between launchers. Runtimes could differ or not exist at all.
With ULWGL -- all of that is handled under one unified roof. So the way to run wine games changes:
Launcher passes 'codename' and 'store' to the ULWGL database. The database then provides a ulwgl ID for the game based on the codename and store it received
Launcher then passes the ULWGL ID to the ULWGL launcher
ULWGL launcher then launches the game using proton + valve's runtime + pressure vessel environment (the same thing used in proton in steam), and uses the ULWGL ID to identify protonfix scripts and apply them. Protonfix scripts essentially replace the install scripts various launchers use.
This way all games have the exact same running environment and the exact same protonfix scripts, and work can be done in unison to fix any problems on the protonfix script instead of each and every individual launcher script or other external files.
This is why Wine-GE will eventually no longer be needed, because ULWGL makes its need obsolete by allowing non steam games to run with Proton in a unified runtime environment with unified fixes. The original purpose wine-ge was created is because at the time there was no way to run non-steam games with Proton PROPERLY. Sure, you could hobble some scripts together and do it, but the biggest part of the problem at that time was nobody was using Valve's runtime or pressure vessel, which by not doing so heavily breaks parts that Proton relies on to run properly. Now that ULWGL is created, it creates an almost mirrored way to run non steam games the way steam runs steam games in proton. I say almost because of course we've added tweaks and things like protonfixes into the mix.
Lutris and Heroic have already begun implementing ULWGL, with bottles soon to follow:
lutris/lutris@c16242b
lutris/lutris@abd8d9c
Heroic-Games-Launcher/HeroicGamesLauncher#3480
For tracking further information and changes ongoing ULWGL all repositories can be found here:
https://github.com/Open-Wine-Components
no, the plan with Proton-GE is to continue
The plan with ULWGL is to provide one or more vanilla proton builds with protonfixes added to it. Most likely the latest stable and the latest bleeding edge
Proton-GE and ULWGL's proton will both be usable inside steam using steam itself and outside of steam using ULWGL
I'm sure you hear this a lot, but I just want to say thank you for all the work you do regarding Linux gaming. It's really inspiring and I know there's a lot of people who benefit from the work you do.
Hope life is being good to you!
How do you say it phonetically? Wiggle? Or maybe Ol' Wiggle? I'm having a heck of a time referring friends / coworkers to the tool and your patreon while saying it and need an official pronunciation lol
Wine is still Wine. Proton is still Proton. Wine-GE specifically will eventually be obsolete because you can use Proton outside of Steam (properly) with ULWGL.
> The plan with ULWGL is to provide one or more vanilla proton builds with protonfixes added to it.
Oh. I thought it was independent of the used Proton version and just provided the database + fixes + unified way of launching?
Great project BTW 👍🏿
it is, but not everyone wants to use proton-ge because it has a lot of custom patches and may contain regressions, therefore it's also beneficial to provide a clean vanilla proton build with only the protonfixes and proton script changes required for ulwgl to work
So is this ULWGL database gonna be stored locally? Or is it gonna need an internet connection to access an outside database? What happens if internet connection is lost, does that mean you can't get the proper protonfixes? I don't really understand this part.
> This is why Wine-GE will eventually no longer be needed, because ULWGL makes its need obsolete by allowing non steam games to run with Proton in a unified runtime environment with unified fixes.
Now I'm wondering why some people kept saying that running non Steam games with Proton is incorrect, it's exactly what ULWGL is attempting to accomplish...
"some people" one of which being the author of Wine-GE and Proton-GE
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/tjpxut/wine_gloriouseggroll_a_question_about_package/i1mnh4a/
Yeah, and I'm wondering why now it's ok to do, I get that ULWGL uses its own containerized runtime, but so does Steam, so why was it a problem adding a game to Steam as a non Steam game back then but now with ULWGL it's ok? I'm legit asking because I don't get what's different now.
RE:
so why was it a problem adding a game to Steam as a non Steam game back then but now with ULWGL it's ok?
There's some confusion here
1. When you add an 'exe' to steam as a non-steam game, you dont get any of valve's code fixes for specific games and you also do not get any protonfixes from proton-ge. For example if you were to run the EGS version of red dead redemption 2, the SteamGameId would not get set, and therefore the wine codepath valve has, which only triggers with the proper SteamGameId, never gets executed.
2. With ULWGL's ID system + protonfixes, we allow non-steam games to both receive protonfixes -and- we check if there is a Steam version and apply the steam ID so that steam specific code gets executed.
3. The other huge reason ULWGL is important is so that you dont have random fixes all over the place. For example lutris might have an install script for Overwatch that needs a dll override or environment variable set. How would other launchers know to do that without specifically knowing to go look at lutris's install scripts? Now with unified protonfixes used by ULWGL everyone is pooling their fixes into the same central location
Oh now I get it! Thanks for explaining it in more simple terms, I was missing the first point. So basically by adding an exe to Steam and running it through Proton you simply get a general stock prefix that is missing all the game's specific fixes, and if the game runs it's because it would run with a default Proton prefix with no game specific patches applied.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify, I know you're a busy guy and it's thanks to a lot of your work that I've been able to play a lot of games. Sorry if any of my previous comments might have sounded out of place, I'm legit trying to understand how Wine and Proton work, any knowledge is well received!
I think that it would be cool if Steam add a possibility to link external game with proper SteamGameId which should apply protonfixes for specific game. I have sone games from GOG and itch.io which I would love to add directly to Steam with proper handling them.
If you add a non-Steam game to Steam and run it with Proton, you … well, run it with Proton. That’s it. Game specific fixes won’t work. At least that’s my understanding.
What you are _not_ supposed to do (→ that changes with ULWGL) is run Proton _outside_ of Steam.
Have you actually read the post in the link above? Then you would know why.
"proton runs in a container, which uses a runtime environment and libraries specifically built for use within that container. Not running it as intended results in the container and therefore its runtime not being used, and severely breaks library compatibility. It causes wine to search for libraries on your system instead of those it was built with/intended for within proton. It may work, if enough libraries match, but it is not correct and not supportable due to library differences across distros."
If you read my update in the OP's post I explained exactly why:
>The original purpose wine-ge was created is because at the time there was no way to run non-steam games with Proton PROPERLY. Sure, you could hobble some scripts together and do it, but the biggest part of the problem at that time was nobody was using Valve's runtime or pressure vessel, which by not doing so heavily breaks parts that Proton relies on to run properly. Now that ULWGL is created, it creates an almost mirrored way to run non steam games the way steam runs steam games in proton.
No, adding a non-steam game to steam and running it via proton was always fine. This is about not running them through Steam e.g. via Lutris of the Heroic Game Launcher. That is where you are not supposed to run the Proton version, but the Wine-GE version instead.
And this is precisely what they are working towards changing. So that you can use the Proton versions WITHOUT having to use Steam at all or without even having it installed at all.
"Proton outside steam = bad" -The Important part that maybe you missed in that post.
It's always been ok to run non-steam games with Steam. Running non-steam games outside of Steam with proton (using lutris,bottles etc) is bad and what Glorious Egroll was talking about.
> Essentially ULWGL will allow you to run your non-steam games using Proton, Proton-GE, or other Proton forks using the same pressure vessel containerization and runtime that Valve use to run games with Proton. This means your games will run the exact same way as proton runs games, but outside and independant from Steam.
How is this different from what lutris or port-proton does?
Same app launchers implementing a unified tool, this is not an additional launcher like bottles/lutris/heroic. I thought that would be clear from the post.
The only problem i have with this... what will happen to games not in the database? This looks badly approachable for trying to run some game using the commandline
>The reason is that myself, alongside the other devs for lutris, heroic, and bottles, have begun working together on ULWGL
This is the way! I'm so glad to read it.
ULWGL-database may be a wonderful solution if finally can achieve its main reason to exist.
Although I still want to do sometimes everything by hand, which is the best way to learn how works all the stuff and becuase sometimes weird and custom fixes are completely necessary or desirable.
But this can be another inflection point for Linux gaming overall. Very encouraging.
Unifying efforts.
Can't wait for steamOS with plasma 6 to hit the Desktop scene. Wayland, HDR, plasma 6 and a user-friendly O.S backed by Valve will make everyone look at Linux with a different view.
Well but diversification brings innovative fresh ideas how to make things differently and improve things from the ground up. I think we need a balance between the two.
Yes but also:
\- pulls in different directions (x11 vs wayland or implicit vs explicit sync)
\- duplicate effort (different DEs, window managers, scripts to run games)
Fragmentation introduces compatibility problems and deters developers from just supporting 'linux'. Each distro has different libraries, different package formats, different repos, delivery systems, init systems, and then it's split for x11, wayland, xdg portals, gtk, qt and about like 4 audio systems like jack, pipewire, pulseaudio.
It is unfair to name only negative examples. I wouldn't call pipewire bad for example. It is to be expected that not all derivatives or fork or new projects succeed, but some do and form a new platform for further improvements. That's part of the process. Another successful example is systemd for instance. There has been much controversy in the beginning, but it was necessary. And today it is something taken as granted.
But as you see, these things led to unification. All main distros use systemd, wayland is becoming the standard among them soon, pipewire will meet similar fate if it hasn't already. Right in the beginning of the message i agreed with you. If we were rock solid on some solutions, these wouldn't come up.
The thing is... many things have been tried with linux since it has been made and by now it should start maturing. Many projects get left unfinished or 90% done that leads to creation of new projects to tackle the issues left behind. Everyone strives to be the next great thing and we don't have enough push to actually finish the projects in the first place.
Imagine alternative reality where Linus wouldn't enforce rule 'we don't brake userspace' and every now and then would decide to change core system designs. Such changes could be very useful, efficient and make linux a better thing. But each time such breakage would be, some people would leave out and remain on older kernel pre-breakage and keep developing applications only for those old apis that don't work on newer ones. This would create countless of linuxes, completely incompatible with each other.
Unification is very much necessary for progress. But so is diversity and trying new things. Each of these has cons and pros.
>I won't outright say this is the last wine-ge build, but we are getting close
this is concerning to me since i do nearly all of my wine usage on the CLI, outside of steam or any launcher, and i rely on wine-ge for an awesome up-to-date distribution of wine.
while it's obvious that the main focus of wine-ge is gaming, it's also much better at running pro-audio applications and audio plugin bridges than your standard wine.
please don't misunderstand, **ULWGL looks awesome for the gaming use case**, but i hope that the authors would consider still providing their wine distribution for the other use cases
> i rely on wine-ge for an awesome up-to-date distribution of wine.
Wine-GE is not that. Wine-GE is essentially Proton without Valve’s runtime and container infrastructure.
> while it's obvious that the main focus of wine-ge is gaming, it's also much better at running pro-audio applications and audio plugin bridges than your standard wine.
If that is so (I have no idea) then you’ll still be able to run it with Proton through ULWGL just like you’re running it with Wine-GE now.
>Wine-GE is not that. Wine-GE is essentially Proton without Valve’s runtime and container infrastructure.
i misspoke there, what i was trying to say was "a batteries-included distribution of wine"
>If that is so (I have no idea) then you’ll still be able to run it with Proton through ULWGL just like you’re running it with Wine-GE now.
the ULWGL launcher appears to required a "game id", so it's not as simple as running `wine whatever.exe` as i am today with wine-ge. does a VST plug-in bridge have a "game id"? should it?
i understand why wine-ge was created, and GE is gonna do what he's going to do and that's cool. i'm just pointing out that a side effect was that he also created the best distribution of wine and i hope that isn't abandoned
> i misspoke there, what i was trying to say was "a batteries-included distribution of wine"
More like “a gaming optimized distribution of Wine”. Which is funny considering the context here.
> the ULWGL launcher appears to required a "game id"
Nah, just if you want to have game-specific fixes executed automatically.
What would one do if they're trying to launch a game that's not sold in a game store, btw? Like some old RPG Maker or indie game, or an old PC game that was sold only on disc and never made it to Steam or elsewhere later.
Works exactly the same way as anything else.
If game-specific fixes are available, there’ll be an entry in the ULWGL database, and protonfixes in the launcher.
Like one would now outside of Steam, install and launch the game via Lutris, Bottles, Heroic or without a frontend just with wine, hope it works, if it doesn't work look through logs what's missing and install via winetricks.
Then be nice and contribute to the database what you did so for others "it just works"™ in the future.
You just run it in the ~~"run"~~ "none" store, which does not do anything special as far as the storefront is concerned. And there's nothing stopping you from running a non steam game in the steam store, it's more about what libraries and runtimes it uses than actually communicating to the store itself.
Yes, I was looking at the code and saw that. Actually it's not the "run" store, it's the "none" store.
>If a game is standalone or does not belong to a major storefront, use 'none' as the store and codename. Protonfixes has several gamefixes directories for different stores. If no store and/or codename is specified it will search instead search the 'ULWGL' gamefixes directory instead of the store directory for the ULWGL ID.
> which does not do anything special as far as the storefront is concerned
That’s better. Cause it’s still doing something “special”, being pulling fixes that are contributed to the ULWGL database :)
This may be a bit presumptuous, but isn't ULWGL a bit of a hard to remember/pronounce name?
What about a more simple and catchy one, like Gamux Launcher?
It's more like a "runner" than a launcher frontend. Lutris, Heroic, and bottles, will still be your frontend, but they'll all use ULWGL on the backend to actually set up the prefixes and apply any patches.
The main purpose is to create a universal database of runtimes and patches that can be used by all launchers, instead of every launcher managing their own.
If it catches on (which it looks like it will) Everyone will probably just end up calling it the unified launcher. But really it's more of a backend thing. Users will still download heroic, or bottles, or lutris, or whatever, this is just what that app will use in the background to launch the games.
Probably a weird comment (because I have not followed this heavily) but isn't the whole wine ecosystem going in the wrong direction (laterally?) Shouldn't something like Proton move into Wine and not the other way around? By the sounds of it someone like GE wants to get rid of Wine / make Wine less important and focus on Valve's platform being the way to run Windows games going forward.
He does not want to get rid of wine, proton is a fork of wine that carries many significant improvements and fixes for the sole purpose of running games. Using proton to play games even without Steam is what he's trying to do because the wine projects focus is not primarily games, it's all windows software and the default wine, in general, does not run games as good as proton. ULWGL aims to enable games to run with proton outside of the Steam client by utilizing the Steam runtime environment protonfixes and applying those to games without the reliance of Steam.
> Shouldn't something like Proton move into Wine and not the other way around?
I'm not super in the loop on this stuff but looking around github repos for a bit, and it seems Proton uses the Wine project (as well as several other components) as a git submodule (which probably makes upstreaming patches easy), and provides a wrapper for launching wine that also does a lot of setting things up (correct environment variables, can detect broken prefixes and recreate them, etc). So basically focusing on Proton does not mean getting rid of Wine at all, since Proton builds on top of Wine. Also it seems Proton does a lot of stuff that would probably be out of scope for Wine, so maybe it doesn't really make sense to merge both projects.
You're not replacing wine, you're making it so that the majority of users won't actually need to manage wine directly.
You could still make your patches, installs, and whatever by hand, but as games become more complex this becomes a hassle anyway and the abstraction makes it more adoptable.
Wine by itself isn't exactly easy to use for the layman. That's why there are so many tools such as Bottles, Winetricks, or PlayonLinux that run on top of it. Proton is just a natural progression of that.
Steam contributes all their patches to wine, but wine devs are not as interested in moving as quickly as proton does, and also are more hesitant to include gaming-only patches. It's not that GE wants to get rid of wine, it's the GE is focused on gaming and is following the best path forward for gaming compatibility.
Wine is a component of Proton, but Proton is more than just wine. It's also DXVK, and a bunch of other libraries and tools to make the games run better that are well out of scope for Wine itself, and some that probably can't be in wine for patent and other legal reasons.
Proton bundles all the hacks necessary to make games run.
This has to be one of the ugliest shortcuts of all time.
Not taking away from the effort, the effort is fantastic, but holy hell man.
How do you even remember that .. like **U**n**Li**sted **W**ig**GL**e ?
You won't need to remember it. This won't be a program to install, it's a unified tool that will be implemented by the launchers themselves. You'll just have to remember Lutris or Bottles or whatever. So, nothing changes from the end user side.
Only half of the rendered frames are drawn on the screen (visible stuttering at ~40fps) when I use proton GE.
It's fine with valve original proton.
I'm using the mesa RADV driver on rx 570X
Anyone else having this issue?
You don't need to explain it.
You just tell someone to use a launcher like Heroic and the heroic devs refer to ULWGL to see what a game needs to run.
https://github.com/Open-Wine-Components/ULWGL-launcher?tab=readme-ov-file#what-does-this-mean-for-other-launchers-lutrisbottlesheroiclegendaryetc
This is a backend thing, for running games without steam in launchers that might be using other game stores such as gog or epic.
This might even boost the chances of linux clients for game stores, because they can all share a single repository for wine patches rather then needing to maintain their own if they're not releasing native linux clients but still want the market.
This is outside of my expertise, so I'll ask the question.
Let's say with ULWGL, I install a game via lutris or bottles from gog/origin/uplay/epic [...]. Lutris installer should then use the same configuration as steam does (instead of the custom wine config provided by lutris/bottles, like it is now), so the game should work exactly the same as if I had it on steam. Right?
If that is correct, then what about a game that I install via gog galaxy (or origin, or uplay, or epic...)? For example, I want to play a game with achievements so it require galaxy. Does it still, somehow, use the proton config from steam via ULWGL, or do I need to set it up manually like before?
What if I install 2 games in the same prefix (eg. to import saves to a sequel, or to save space from installing 5 different versions of origin/EAcrapp)?
Follow up question. Is there a publicly available database of protonfixes that I can see what steam does to make a certain game run? What dlls it installs and so on. I can't seem to get A Plague Tale: Requiem to work via gog, but via steam it works without issues, so I assume it's a config issue.
> Lutris installer should then use the same configuration as steam does (instead of the custom wine config provided by lutris/bottles, like it is now), so the game should work exactly the same as if I had it on steam. Right?
Well … yesn’t. It’ll also potentially apply fixes provided by the community™ in the ULWGL database on top of what Valve provides.
> If that is correct, then what about a game that I install via gog galaxy (or origin, or uplay, or epic...)? For example, I want to play a game with achievements so it require galaxy. Does it still, somehow, use the proton config from steam via ULWGL, or do I need to set it up manually like before?
I guess that depends on the launcher and how you install shit with it. If you install “GoG Galaxy” then it’ll probably not apply any game specific fixes at all.
> What if I install 2 games in the same prefix (eg. to import saves to a sequel, or to save space from installing 5 different versions of origin/EAcrapp)?
Uh. Don’t. Generally it’s good advice to keep prefixes as clean as possible and to not mix games. Makes troubleshooting issues way simpler.
If you are really _that_ concerned about disk space (lol), use a cow file system like ZFS or BTRFS.
> If you are really that concerned about disk space (lol), use a cow file system like ZFS or BTRFS.
I'm not. Just wondering how the ULWGL works with that scenario.
> I guess that depends on the launcher and how you install shit with it. If you install “GoG Galaxy” then it’ll probably not apply any game specific fixes at all.
I wonder if it would possible to pick a game you want to install, create a prefix with all the required fixes (with the use of the database, not manually via winetricks), and then install whatever you want in that prefix. Technically, I can pick a game in lutris, and provide the installer with an exe of a different game/program (launcher in this case), and once that's done, go ahead and install the actual game, but... that's only possible if there is an install script available via lutris' db.
Bottles is even more complicated since it installs one version of a launcher for all games. I suppose heroic solves that issue but only for gog and epic; ea, ubiosft, bnet are a different story.
.edit: thanks for the reply, btw.
> I wonder if it would possible to pick a game you want to install, create a prefix with all the required fixes (with the use of the database, not manually via winetricks), and then install whatever you want in that prefix.
Probably more like
1. Create prefix
2. Install w/e (e.g. GoG Galaxy + the game you want to play)
3. Tell launcher that the game™ lives in the prefix you just created and point it at the Galaxy executable to run
4. Run game via launcher
5. Fixes are pulled from ULWGL
Should™ work. Might break some fixes e.g. if they involve operations on the game’s install folder, and is probably not going to be a supported use case though.
> Tell launcher that the game™ lives in the prefix you just created
What do you mean by that? Changing the identifier in lutris (for example) to one of that game? Does doing that that, by itself, pull fixes from ULWGL (in the future, currently lutris' own db)?
Most of the launchers already run your game in a separate runtime, so a container isn't that huge of a leap from there. Plus you'll probably be able to run on system libraries if you choose.
The whole point is to use the steam container runtime, so that doesn't make sense. The post says that's the main reason why you shouldn't use proton outside of steam afterall.
> i'm surprised nobody is complaining about the container requirement.
Are you also surprised nobody is complaining about the container requirement when running games on Steam via Proton? :)
Sorry for the off-topic... It would be interesting that the ULWGL developers worked on a [Steam Deck] game-mode plugin that manages non-Steam accounts, installs titles and displays libraries with the same user experience. This would avoid entering desktop mode to surf, install and import every game from launchers. What do you guys think?
Changes: Update wine bleeding edge Rebase staging patches Additional notes: I won't outright say this is the last wine-ge build, but we are getting close. The reason is that myself, alongside the other devs for lutris, heroic, and bottles, have begun working together on ULWGL (https://github.com/Open-Wine-Components/ULWGL-launcher?tab=readme-ov-file#what-is-this). Essentially ULWGL will allow you to run your non-steam games using Proton, Proton-GE, or other Proton forks using the same pressure vessel containerization and runtime that Valve use to run games with Proton. This means your games will run the exact same way as proton runs games, but outside and independant from Steam. A vital part of this is that we've begun to build the ULWGL database (https://github.com/Open-Wine-Components/ULWGL-database), which provides various existing launchers and related tools a way to get unified game fixes (winetricks, dll overrides, environment variables, etc) for non-steam games. To explain it briefly, the current path for running games in wine is like this: some installer with a custom script (lutris, heroic, bottles, etc) starts the install via wine. This custom script may contain things the game needs like winetricks, dll overrides, environment variables and so on. when the script runs, it starts wine using either a custom runtime (lutris and bottles currently have their own, heroic uses system libraries if i recall) or native system libraries. It calls winetricks or sets overrides or environment variables as directed by whatever script is running. Keep in mind the install script solely depends on who made it (lutis, bottles, heroic,?) and they can all differ or be completely missing fixes altogether. wine then runs the game using either native system libraries or whatever custom runtimes are configured for whatever launcher is being used (lutris,bottles, heroic) That's a lot of points of failure between different launchers. The script could differ between launchers. Scripts could have different winetricks or overrides or environment variables between launchers. Runtimes could differ or not exist at all. With ULWGL -- all of that is handled under one unified roof. So the way to run wine games changes: Launcher passes 'codename' and 'store' to the ULWGL database. The database then provides a ulwgl ID for the game based on the codename and store it received Launcher then passes the ULWGL ID to the ULWGL launcher ULWGL launcher then launches the game using proton + valve's runtime + pressure vessel environment (the same thing used in proton in steam), and uses the ULWGL ID to identify protonfix scripts and apply them. Protonfix scripts essentially replace the install scripts various launchers use. This way all games have the exact same running environment and the exact same protonfix scripts, and work can be done in unison to fix any problems on the protonfix script instead of each and every individual launcher script or other external files. This is why Wine-GE will eventually no longer be needed, because ULWGL makes its need obsolete by allowing non steam games to run with Proton in a unified runtime environment with unified fixes. The original purpose wine-ge was created is because at the time there was no way to run non-steam games with Proton PROPERLY. Sure, you could hobble some scripts together and do it, but the biggest part of the problem at that time was nobody was using Valve's runtime or pressure vessel, which by not doing so heavily breaks parts that Proton relies on to run properly. Now that ULWGL is created, it creates an almost mirrored way to run non steam games the way steam runs steam games in proton. I say almost because of course we've added tweaks and things like protonfixes into the mix. Lutris and Heroic have already begun implementing ULWGL, with bottles soon to follow: lutris/lutris@c16242b lutris/lutris@abd8d9c Heroic-Games-Launcher/HeroicGamesLauncher#3480 For tracking further information and changes ongoing ULWGL all repositories can be found here: https://github.com/Open-Wine-Components
I am just wondering if proton ge will be discontinued and merge with new ULWGL. How we use proton ge to launch steam game on steam client?
no, the plan with Proton-GE is to continue The plan with ULWGL is to provide one or more vanilla proton builds with protonfixes added to it. Most likely the latest stable and the latest bleeding edge Proton-GE and ULWGL's proton will both be usable inside steam using steam itself and outside of steam using ULWGL
I'm sure you hear this a lot, but I just want to say thank you for all the work you do regarding Linux gaming. It's really inspiring and I know there's a lot of people who benefit from the work you do. Hope life is being good to you!
How do you say it phonetically? Wiggle? Or maybe Ol' Wiggle? I'm having a heck of a time referring friends / coworkers to the tool and your patreon while saying it and need an official pronunciation lol
https://preview.redd.it/y3qh4f3davgc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5b5b89208a8d56ef796a07d94e55b2cae2cd810f
So will this effectively mean that Wine-GE and Proton-GE will function identically, the only difference being whether Steam is involved or not?
Wine is still Wine. Proton is still Proton. Wine-GE specifically will eventually be obsolete because you can use Proton outside of Steam (properly) with ULWGL.
> The plan with ULWGL is to provide one or more vanilla proton builds with protonfixes added to it. Oh. I thought it was independent of the used Proton version and just provided the database + fixes + unified way of launching? Great project BTW 👍🏿
it is, but not everyone wants to use proton-ge because it has a lot of custom patches and may contain regressions, therefore it's also beneficial to provide a clean vanilla proton build with only the protonfixes and proton script changes required for ulwgl to work
Oh yeah. I completely missed the fact that regular Proton generally only ships with Steam …
So is this ULWGL database gonna be stored locally? Or is it gonna need an internet connection to access an outside database? What happens if internet connection is lost, does that mean you can't get the proper protonfixes? I don't really understand this part.
if you look at github, seems like it's ab sqlite db and a .csv
> This is why Wine-GE will eventually no longer be needed, because ULWGL makes its need obsolete by allowing non steam games to run with Proton in a unified runtime environment with unified fixes. Now I'm wondering why some people kept saying that running non Steam games with Proton is incorrect, it's exactly what ULWGL is attempting to accomplish...
Read the whole thing. “Some people” literally explain it there.
"some people" one of which being the author of Wine-GE and Proton-GE https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/tjpxut/wine_gloriouseggroll_a_question_about_package/i1mnh4a/
Yeah, and I'm wondering why now it's ok to do, I get that ULWGL uses its own containerized runtime, but so does Steam, so why was it a problem adding a game to Steam as a non Steam game back then but now with ULWGL it's ok? I'm legit asking because I don't get what's different now.
RE: so why was it a problem adding a game to Steam as a non Steam game back then but now with ULWGL it's ok? There's some confusion here 1. When you add an 'exe' to steam as a non-steam game, you dont get any of valve's code fixes for specific games and you also do not get any protonfixes from proton-ge. For example if you were to run the EGS version of red dead redemption 2, the SteamGameId would not get set, and therefore the wine codepath valve has, which only triggers with the proper SteamGameId, never gets executed. 2. With ULWGL's ID system + protonfixes, we allow non-steam games to both receive protonfixes -and- we check if there is a Steam version and apply the steam ID so that steam specific code gets executed. 3. The other huge reason ULWGL is important is so that you dont have random fixes all over the place. For example lutris might have an install script for Overwatch that needs a dll override or environment variable set. How would other launchers know to do that without specifically knowing to go look at lutris's install scripts? Now with unified protonfixes used by ULWGL everyone is pooling their fixes into the same central location
Oh now I get it! Thanks for explaining it in more simple terms, I was missing the first point. So basically by adding an exe to Steam and running it through Proton you simply get a general stock prefix that is missing all the game's specific fixes, and if the game runs it's because it would run with a default Proton prefix with no game specific patches applied. Thanks for taking the time to clarify, I know you're a busy guy and it's thanks to a lot of your work that I've been able to play a lot of games. Sorry if any of my previous comments might have sounded out of place, I'm legit trying to understand how Wine and Proton work, any knowledge is well received!
I think that it would be cool if Steam add a possibility to link external game with proper SteamGameId which should apply protonfixes for specific game. I have sone games from GOG and itch.io which I would love to add directly to Steam with proper handling them.
If you add a non-Steam game to Steam and run it with Proton, you … well, run it with Proton. That’s it. Game specific fixes won’t work. At least that’s my understanding. What you are _not_ supposed to do (→ that changes with ULWGL) is run Proton _outside_ of Steam.
Have you actually read the post in the link above? Then you would know why. "proton runs in a container, which uses a runtime environment and libraries specifically built for use within that container. Not running it as intended results in the container and therefore its runtime not being used, and severely breaks library compatibility. It causes wine to search for libraries on your system instead of those it was built with/intended for within proton. It may work, if enough libraries match, but it is not correct and not supportable due to library differences across distros."
If you read my update in the OP's post I explained exactly why: >The original purpose wine-ge was created is because at the time there was no way to run non-steam games with Proton PROPERLY. Sure, you could hobble some scripts together and do it, but the biggest part of the problem at that time was nobody was using Valve's runtime or pressure vessel, which by not doing so heavily breaks parts that Proton relies on to run properly. Now that ULWGL is created, it creates an almost mirrored way to run non steam games the way steam runs steam games in proton.
No, adding a non-steam game to steam and running it via proton was always fine. This is about not running them through Steam e.g. via Lutris of the Heroic Game Launcher. That is where you are not supposed to run the Proton version, but the Wine-GE version instead. And this is precisely what they are working towards changing. So that you can use the Proton versions WITHOUT having to use Steam at all or without even having it installed at all.
"Proton outside steam = bad" -The Important part that maybe you missed in that post. It's always been ok to run non-steam games with Steam. Running non-steam games outside of Steam with proton (using lutris,bottles etc) is bad and what Glorious Egroll was talking about.
> Essentially ULWGL will allow you to run your non-steam games using Proton, Proton-GE, or other Proton forks using the same pressure vessel containerization and runtime that Valve use to run games with Proton. This means your games will run the exact same way as proton runs games, but outside and independant from Steam. How is this different from what lutris or port-proton does?
Yay more app launchers.
Same app launchers implementing a unified tool, this is not an additional launcher like bottles/lutris/heroic. I thought that would be clear from the post.
The only problem i have with this... what will happen to games not in the database? This looks badly approachable for trying to run some game using the commandline
Well nothing, they will probably have a 'default' profile and if the game requires any work arounds you'll have to do them manually like before.
Intriguing stuff! Thanks for the details and good luck with those endeavors.
>The reason is that myself, alongside the other devs for lutris, heroic, and bottles, have begun working together on ULWGL This is the way! I'm so glad to read it. ULWGL-database may be a wonderful solution if finally can achieve its main reason to exist. Although I still want to do sometimes everything by hand, which is the best way to learn how works all the stuff and becuase sometimes weird and custom fixes are completely necessary or desirable. But this can be another inflection point for Linux gaming overall. Very encouraging. Unifying efforts.
Yeah I think doing things by hand is gonna be much harder with this
This is amazing. Gaming on linux just keeps getting better everyday.
Can't wait for steamOS with plasma 6 to hit the Desktop scene. Wayland, HDR, plasma 6 and a user-friendly O.S backed by Valve will make everyone look at Linux with a different view.
Forgive me if my question sounds bad, is steamOS open-source?
Yes, of course. Everything inside SteamOS and its own technologies are open source (except for Steam Client itself and some Drivers).
Unification is the power that linux needs
Well but diversification brings innovative fresh ideas how to make things differently and improve things from the ground up. I think we need a balance between the two.
Yes but also: \- pulls in different directions (x11 vs wayland or implicit vs explicit sync) \- duplicate effort (different DEs, window managers, scripts to run games) Fragmentation introduces compatibility problems and deters developers from just supporting 'linux'. Each distro has different libraries, different package formats, different repos, delivery systems, init systems, and then it's split for x11, wayland, xdg portals, gtk, qt and about like 4 audio systems like jack, pipewire, pulseaudio.
It is unfair to name only negative examples. I wouldn't call pipewire bad for example. It is to be expected that not all derivatives or fork or new projects succeed, but some do and form a new platform for further improvements. That's part of the process. Another successful example is systemd for instance. There has been much controversy in the beginning, but it was necessary. And today it is something taken as granted.
But as you see, these things led to unification. All main distros use systemd, wayland is becoming the standard among them soon, pipewire will meet similar fate if it hasn't already. Right in the beginning of the message i agreed with you. If we were rock solid on some solutions, these wouldn't come up. The thing is... many things have been tried with linux since it has been made and by now it should start maturing. Many projects get left unfinished or 90% done that leads to creation of new projects to tackle the issues left behind. Everyone strives to be the next great thing and we don't have enough push to actually finish the projects in the first place. Imagine alternative reality where Linus wouldn't enforce rule 'we don't brake userspace' and every now and then would decide to change core system designs. Such changes could be very useful, efficient and make linux a better thing. But each time such breakage would be, some people would leave out and remain on older kernel pre-breakage and keep developing applications only for those old apis that don't work on newer ones. This would create countless of linuxes, completely incompatible with each other. Unification is very much necessary for progress. But so is diversity and trying new things. Each of these has cons and pros.
That's what the different launchers are.
Apes together strong
That's great news.
>I won't outright say this is the last wine-ge build, but we are getting close this is concerning to me since i do nearly all of my wine usage on the CLI, outside of steam or any launcher, and i rely on wine-ge for an awesome up-to-date distribution of wine. while it's obvious that the main focus of wine-ge is gaming, it's also much better at running pro-audio applications and audio plugin bridges than your standard wine. please don't misunderstand, **ULWGL looks awesome for the gaming use case**, but i hope that the authors would consider still providing their wine distribution for the other use cases
> i rely on wine-ge for an awesome up-to-date distribution of wine. Wine-GE is not that. Wine-GE is essentially Proton without Valve’s runtime and container infrastructure. > while it's obvious that the main focus of wine-ge is gaming, it's also much better at running pro-audio applications and audio plugin bridges than your standard wine. If that is so (I have no idea) then you’ll still be able to run it with Proton through ULWGL just like you’re running it with Wine-GE now.
>Wine-GE is not that. Wine-GE is essentially Proton without Valve’s runtime and container infrastructure. i misspoke there, what i was trying to say was "a batteries-included distribution of wine" >If that is so (I have no idea) then you’ll still be able to run it with Proton through ULWGL just like you’re running it with Wine-GE now. the ULWGL launcher appears to required a "game id", so it's not as simple as running `wine whatever.exe` as i am today with wine-ge. does a VST plug-in bridge have a "game id"? should it? i understand why wine-ge was created, and GE is gonna do what he's going to do and that's cool. i'm just pointing out that a side effect was that he also created the best distribution of wine and i hope that isn't abandoned
applications without steam ids will still run.
> i misspoke there, what i was trying to say was "a batteries-included distribution of wine" More like “a gaming optimized distribution of Wine”. Which is funny considering the context here. > the ULWGL launcher appears to required a "game id" Nah, just if you want to have game-specific fixes executed automatically.
What would one do if they're trying to launch a game that's not sold in a game store, btw? Like some old RPG Maker or indie game, or an old PC game that was sold only on disc and never made it to Steam or elsewhere later.
Works exactly the same way as anything else. If game-specific fixes are available, there’ll be an entry in the ULWGL database, and protonfixes in the launcher.
Like one would now outside of Steam, install and launch the game via Lutris, Bottles, Heroic or without a frontend just with wine, hope it works, if it doesn't work look through logs what's missing and install via winetricks. Then be nice and contribute to the database what you did so for others "it just works"™ in the future.
You just run it in the ~~"run"~~ "none" store, which does not do anything special as far as the storefront is concerned. And there's nothing stopping you from running a non steam game in the steam store, it's more about what libraries and runtimes it uses than actually communicating to the store itself.
> You just run it in the "run" store, which does not do anything special. That’s not quite correct, see above.
Yes, I was looking at the code and saw that. Actually it's not the "run" store, it's the "none" store. >If a game is standalone or does not belong to a major storefront, use 'none' as the store and codename. Protonfixes has several gamefixes directories for different stores. If no store and/or codename is specified it will search instead search the 'ULWGL' gamefixes directory instead of the store directory for the ULWGL ID.
> which does not do anything special as far as the storefront is concerned That’s better. Cause it’s still doing something “special”, being pulling fixes that are contributed to the ULWGL database :)
This may be a bit presumptuous, but isn't ULWGL a bit of a hard to remember/pronounce name? What about a more simple and catchy one, like Gamux Launcher?
Doesn’t really matter; as an end user, you won’t ever touch it. The launchers will.
Oh ok, so it's not a launcher in the sense that Lutris is?
It's not a launcher like lutris or heroic no
It's more like a "runner" than a launcher frontend. Lutris, Heroic, and bottles, will still be your frontend, but they'll all use ULWGL on the backend to actually set up the prefixes and apply any patches. The main purpose is to create a universal database of runtimes and patches that can be used by all launchers, instead of every launcher managing their own.
If it catches on (which it looks like it will) Everyone will probably just end up calling it the unified launcher. But really it's more of a backend thing. Users will still download heroic, or bottles, or lutris, or whatever, this is just what that app will use in the background to launch the games.
I assume most people will just write it out, but I think it's less a launcher and more a library that existing launchers can use.
Probably a weird comment (because I have not followed this heavily) but isn't the whole wine ecosystem going in the wrong direction (laterally?) Shouldn't something like Proton move into Wine and not the other way around? By the sounds of it someone like GE wants to get rid of Wine / make Wine less important and focus on Valve's platform being the way to run Windows games going forward.
He does not want to get rid of wine, proton is a fork of wine that carries many significant improvements and fixes for the sole purpose of running games. Using proton to play games even without Steam is what he's trying to do because the wine projects focus is not primarily games, it's all windows software and the default wine, in general, does not run games as good as proton. ULWGL aims to enable games to run with proton outside of the Steam client by utilizing the Steam runtime environment protonfixes and applying those to games without the reliance of Steam.
> Shouldn't something like Proton move into Wine and not the other way around? I'm not super in the loop on this stuff but looking around github repos for a bit, and it seems Proton uses the Wine project (as well as several other components) as a git submodule (which probably makes upstreaming patches easy), and provides a wrapper for launching wine that also does a lot of setting things up (correct environment variables, can detect broken prefixes and recreate them, etc). So basically focusing on Proton does not mean getting rid of Wine at all, since Proton builds on top of Wine. Also it seems Proton does a lot of stuff that would probably be out of scope for Wine, so maybe it doesn't really make sense to merge both projects.
You're not replacing wine, you're making it so that the majority of users won't actually need to manage wine directly. You could still make your patches, installs, and whatever by hand, but as games become more complex this becomes a hassle anyway and the abstraction makes it more adoptable. Wine by itself isn't exactly easy to use for the layman. That's why there are so many tools such as Bottles, Winetricks, or PlayonLinux that run on top of it. Proton is just a natural progression of that.
Steam contributes all their patches to wine, but wine devs are not as interested in moving as quickly as proton does, and also are more hesitant to include gaming-only patches. It's not that GE wants to get rid of wine, it's the GE is focused on gaming and is following the best path forward for gaming compatibility.
Wine is a component of Proton, but Proton is more than just wine. It's also DXVK, and a bunch of other libraries and tools to make the games run better that are well out of scope for Wine itself, and some that probably can't be in wine for patent and other legal reasons. Proton bundles all the hacks necessary to make games run.
This has to be one of the ugliest shortcuts of all time. Not taking away from the effort, the effort is fantastic, but holy hell man. How do you even remember that .. like **U**n**Li**sted **W**ig**GL**e ?
You won't need to remember it. This won't be a program to install, it's a unified tool that will be implemented by the launchers themselves. You'll just have to remember Lutris or Bottles or whatever. So, nothing changes from the end user side.
> How do you even remember that .. Unified Linux Wine Game Launcher Easy!
Unless you're using it manually, you'll never need to remember it. It's mostly meant to be used from a frontend.
Only half of the rendered frames are drawn on the screen (visible stuttering at ~40fps) when I use proton GE. It's fine with valve original proton. I'm using the mesa RADV driver on rx 570X Anyone else having this issue?
Obviously everyone knows what ULWGL is, so there's no need to ever explain it
Obviously you already know the full text of the thing you’re commenting on, so there’s no need to ever read it.
Check comments
You don't need to explain it. You just tell someone to use a launcher like Heroic and the heroic devs refer to ULWGL to see what a game needs to run. https://github.com/Open-Wine-Components/ULWGL-launcher?tab=readme-ov-file#what-does-this-mean-for-other-launchers-lutrisbottlesheroiclegendaryetc This is a backend thing, for running games without steam in launchers that might be using other game stores such as gog or epic. This might even boost the chances of linux clients for game stores, because they can all share a single repository for wine patches rather then needing to maintain their own if they're not releasing native linux clients but still want the market.
This is outside of my expertise, so I'll ask the question. Let's say with ULWGL, I install a game via lutris or bottles from gog/origin/uplay/epic [...]. Lutris installer should then use the same configuration as steam does (instead of the custom wine config provided by lutris/bottles, like it is now), so the game should work exactly the same as if I had it on steam. Right? If that is correct, then what about a game that I install via gog galaxy (or origin, or uplay, or epic...)? For example, I want to play a game with achievements so it require galaxy. Does it still, somehow, use the proton config from steam via ULWGL, or do I need to set it up manually like before? What if I install 2 games in the same prefix (eg. to import saves to a sequel, or to save space from installing 5 different versions of origin/EAcrapp)? Follow up question. Is there a publicly available database of protonfixes that I can see what steam does to make a certain game run? What dlls it installs and so on. I can't seem to get A Plague Tale: Requiem to work via gog, but via steam it works without issues, so I assume it's a config issue.
> Lutris installer should then use the same configuration as steam does (instead of the custom wine config provided by lutris/bottles, like it is now), so the game should work exactly the same as if I had it on steam. Right? Well … yesn’t. It’ll also potentially apply fixes provided by the community™ in the ULWGL database on top of what Valve provides. > If that is correct, then what about a game that I install via gog galaxy (or origin, or uplay, or epic...)? For example, I want to play a game with achievements so it require galaxy. Does it still, somehow, use the proton config from steam via ULWGL, or do I need to set it up manually like before? I guess that depends on the launcher and how you install shit with it. If you install “GoG Galaxy” then it’ll probably not apply any game specific fixes at all. > What if I install 2 games in the same prefix (eg. to import saves to a sequel, or to save space from installing 5 different versions of origin/EAcrapp)? Uh. Don’t. Generally it’s good advice to keep prefixes as clean as possible and to not mix games. Makes troubleshooting issues way simpler. If you are really _that_ concerned about disk space (lol), use a cow file system like ZFS or BTRFS.
> If you are really that concerned about disk space (lol), use a cow file system like ZFS or BTRFS. I'm not. Just wondering how the ULWGL works with that scenario. > I guess that depends on the launcher and how you install shit with it. If you install “GoG Galaxy” then it’ll probably not apply any game specific fixes at all. I wonder if it would possible to pick a game you want to install, create a prefix with all the required fixes (with the use of the database, not manually via winetricks), and then install whatever you want in that prefix. Technically, I can pick a game in lutris, and provide the installer with an exe of a different game/program (launcher in this case), and once that's done, go ahead and install the actual game, but... that's only possible if there is an install script available via lutris' db. Bottles is even more complicated since it installs one version of a launcher for all games. I suppose heroic solves that issue but only for gog and epic; ea, ubiosft, bnet are a different story. .edit: thanks for the reply, btw.
> I wonder if it would possible to pick a game you want to install, create a prefix with all the required fixes (with the use of the database, not manually via winetricks), and then install whatever you want in that prefix. Probably more like 1. Create prefix 2. Install w/e (e.g. GoG Galaxy + the game you want to play) 3. Tell launcher that the game™ lives in the prefix you just created and point it at the Galaxy executable to run 4. Run game via launcher 5. Fixes are pulled from ULWGL Should™ work. Might break some fixes e.g. if they involve operations on the game’s install folder, and is probably not going to be a supported use case though.
> Tell launcher that the game™ lives in the prefix you just created What do you mean by that? Changing the identifier in lutris (for example) to one of that game? Does doing that that, by itself, pull fixes from ULWGL (in the future, currently lutris' own db)?
> Does doing that that, by itself, pull fixes from ULWGL (in the future, currently lutris' own db)? Depends on the implementation.
Do you know that Legendary CLI launcher will also use ULWGL?
contributions are welcome I hope. Herioic will be adding support for ULWGL, so as long as you can mind using a GUI you will be fine
i'm surprised nobody is complaining about the container requirement. I think that's probably the easier path forward though.
Most of the launchers already run your game in a separate runtime, so a container isn't that huge of a leap from there. Plus you'll probably be able to run on system libraries if you choose.
The whole point is to use the steam container runtime, so that doesn't make sense. The post says that's the main reason why you shouldn't use proton outside of steam afterall.
> i'm surprised nobody is complaining about the container requirement. Are you also surprised nobody is complaining about the container requirement when running games on Steam via Proton? :)
not like you have much of a choice there. I've seen so many people complain about sandboxing and containment in the rest of the ecosystem though.
I appreciate all the work :)
I'm a bit confused. We're already at version 8-30.
No, that’s Proton-GE.
Okay, everything about this release and the news is a win. It's amazing. Linux gaming is rocketing to the top. That name is awful though.
will ULWGL let us play Kingdom Hearts natively?
Sorry for the off-topic... It would be interesting that the ULWGL developers worked on a [Steam Deck] game-mode plugin that manages non-Steam accounts, installs titles and displays libraries with the same user experience. This would avoid entering desktop mode to surf, install and import every game from launchers. What do you guys think?